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[ERROR] No.19847630 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

This thread is reserved for fluff archeologists and intelligent 40k conspiracy theorists. Post whatever is unclear to you in the fluff and let us try to find answers together or at least offer plausible theories as to what/why could have happened. Polite summerfags and newfags are welcome, but Mr. Sperg is not invited.

To start off - Astronomicon, stellar beacon of Mankind. My problem with it is twofold. First - if it is so essential to warp travel for navigation, how did humans during DAoT navigated? They created Navigators, this means that there was a need for navigation and their ships weren't able to do it because of magical archeotech. But there was no beacon for them to use for navigation. However I can make up some excuse for that, like an artificial proto-Astronomicon. Second part of the problem is the period between the beginning of the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. During that period crusaders covered vast distances even though there was no Astronomicon and DAoT equivalent was already destroyed(if it ever existed, that is). Some might argue, that Emprah was visible in the warp already, I would agree with that, however he couldn't have served like a beacon because he was constantly moving around the galaxy. So, what are your thoughts on this?

Also, I have heard a small reference to a conspiracy theory that Emperor has died during HH and it's Horus sitting in his place. Could someone elaborate on this?

>> No.19847655

>this illustration

it's beautiful

>> No.19847687

So the admech is supposed to treat all technology as holy stuff, venerate it, chanting, incense, etc.

I kinda wonder if that's what is told to the masses and to the lower level maintainers, but your Magos or someone on similar level knows what's actually happening

>> No.19847738

Your magos knows what's happening. Most of the admech does. That doesn't prevent them from respecting knowledge and its manifestations religiously.

>> No.19847740

Thank you, dear anon.

Also, I am interested in your opinions about the two lost primarchs.

And don't give me shit like 'it's was left for anyone to fill, it is all subjective in 40k and blah blah blah', I am not retarded and know a tale or two about this setting. However I am interested in YOUR opinion on what happened to them and their legions, you'd be suprised what original and interesting ideas people sometimes hide just because of 'page no. 3492b says that you are wrong HURR DURR'.

I myself am seriously thinking about one of them falling to the Eldar(pic related) and another one... Sigmar anyone? Fuck GW and their 'not the same universe policy'

>> No.19847774

Even the highest level archmagos know less about the workings of the universe than Newton did. Whole Empire is a giant cargo cult

Dark mechanicus and various lesser heretics are the only humans who might know something, but most of what they know is bullshit too.

This is why Tau are eventually going to dominate the mankind.

>> No.19847787


On the topic of Sigmar being a primarch, I have seen so many arguments for why he can't more so for why he could, it has convinced me that he isn't but I think GW were stupid fro doing this, it is like they originally wanted to make him a primarch then backtracked and tried to make it impossible, Sigmar being a primarch would be awesome and as a result I am just going to pretend he is.

>> No.19847797

This anon hits the mark, imho. Also only the complex machines receive proper reverance, imagining that every lasgun is an altar is a bit dumb(yes, you can pray while you clean/aim it, but it isn't true, fearful worship)

>> No.19847819

Well, we know that the two were purged for some reason, and that Russ did at least one of them. So, the only question is what they were purged for. I think the most popular ideas are, that one was turned to some xenos faction, or hated humanity. And the other was a blank, and thus rivaled the emperors power and his vision of man kind as psychic lords.

>> No.19847823

>not the same universe policy
it's actually the opposite.

>> No.19847854

>Even the highest level archmagos know less about the workings of the universe than Newton did. Whole Empire is a giant cargo cult
>Dark mechanicus and various lesser heretics are the only humans who might know something, but most of what they know is bullshit too.
>This is why Tau are eventually going to dominate the mankind.

>> No.19847855


They retconned all of this however.

>> No.19847870

Can you give me a source?

>> No.19847899

Were Ork Snipers the real cause of Horus's death and the Emperor's current status?

>> No.19847902

I found out the other day that the Illuminati are in 40K. Not even joking. It made me sad.

>> No.19847906

No, but they did kill the Celestial Lions.

>> No.19847933

It's not the same illuminati as those /x/ is obsessed with at all.
in 40k, the illuminati are a sect that uses really fucked-up schemes to save humanity. Such as sacrificing Emps' biological children. Or using transdimensional abominations to connect human minds.

>> No.19847965

I think it was stated a few years ago in official conference, that these worlds are separate(even though imho that's quite dumb, having in mind all the similarities). I can't provide the source, but I am pretty sure about it. You pic however gives me hope.
Not the best argumentation, but that kind of approach indeed is nearly impossible to implement, unless you assume that every human in 40k is autistic.
>inb4 this setting was meant to be autistic!
Maybe it once was, but it is not so anymore. Deal with it.

Adeptus mechanicus guard their knowledge and common masses indeed think that it's magic, but it is impossible to wage wars on the scale that the imperium does without basic understanding of what you operate. I liked Abnett's approach - there common men respect machines and try to avoid dealing with them, but techpriests know what they are doing and in worst case scenario can do such stuff as field repairs, improvise with existing tools, etc.

so, is there someone to answer my original question?

>> No.19847993

Are you also laughing from the 'ork snipers' explanation Skargan gave in his Chapter Quest or are you serious?

>> No.19848021


This sounds about right. In the few books which feature Ad Mech, junior level Techpriests are educated to what would probably today be considered University level, if not higher.

Doesn't stop the from venerating technology and science religiously.

>> No.19848022

Yes, I remember it now, it was indeed during a Games' day. Frankly, with all the massive hints of the contrary that they've been dropping like anvils everywhere and up to this day, I find this statement laughable.

>> No.19848023

>To start off - Astronomicon, stellar beacon of Mankind. My problem with it is twofold. First - if it is so essential to warp travel for navigation, how did humans during DAoT navigated?

Back then, the warp was clear enough that the astronomican was not needed.
Then Slaanesh came over and fucked everything up.

>So, what are your thoughts on this?
No idea, I was wondering that myself.

>Also, I have heard a small reference to a conspiracy theory that Emperor has died during HH and it's Horus sitting in his place. Could someone elaborate on this?
Not true, but there are clues pointing to this if you squint.
Like the whole "death to the false emperor" thing some chaos marines like to shout and Alpha legion still goes around saying "for the emperor" and yet they fight against the imperium.
One conclusion is that Horus killed the Emprah, got wounded in the process and took as seat on the golden bathroom as a fuck you to the chaos gods because he was in it to be emperor, not to serve Chaos.
In short, chaos marines are still loyal to the original emperor and they hate Horus.
Or they just hate Horus and don't give a fuck about the emperor.

>> No.19848030

So the Orks are the strongest sub-conscious psykers, being able to make machines that should be impossibly to work move, and making the colour red affect machine performance. What the hell is going to happen if Ghazghkull gets his waaaagh big enough that it resonates across the galaxy?

>> No.19848061

My most favourite Chapter(ideology/story wise).
I was dead serious when I wrote that, those marines were indeed killed by Ork snipers. I realised the irony only later.
I like this interpretation if you want to give Imperium the Soviet Union feeling, where the power was hijacked by the secret police and because of that everything is crumbling. However I prefer to view Inquisition as one of those few forces in 40k that do more good in the end than bad. Yes, I agree that it's unreasonable to assume this.

>> No.19848071

There are 2 versions of 40k lore, the true version and the lie version that they write in the chaos codices.

Try to figure out which version you've been given

The imperium of man is a facist dictatorship. Whole planets are regularly exterminated to kill a few cultists. The emperor is obviously just a chaos god, because he keeps humans fighting with heretics and agents of chaos. Chaos lives off of the strength of human emoiton so that is why they cause fights, so they never want fighting to end. And that is why they tried to take over the imperium during the Horus heresy. The adeptus arbites are the most powerfull force in the imperium, and maintain their own fleets of ships and assault planets and have the authority to arrest a planetary governor, which is elected or a king and certainly not a governor. There are many corporations in the imperium, noble houses, cabals, religious orders, rogue traders and the adeptus mechanicus are all corporations. The administratum does not control them.



>> No.19848100

>strongest subconscious psykers
wrong. Many latent human psykers are way more powerful than the average ork, and this often causes major catastrophes regularly.
>being able to make machines that should be impossibly to work move
Wrong. They make machines that don't work optimally work better.

>> No.19848109

>Even the highest level archmagos know less about the workings of the universe than Newton did. Whole Empire is a giant cargo cult

Oh, god, MY SIDES

>Dark mechanicus and various lesser heretics are the only humans who might know something, but most of what they know is bullshit too.


>This is why Tau are eventually going to dominate the mankind.

NOPE to all of the above

The higher you go up AdMech's rankings, the more you actually understand and the more you see that you've been drinking your own kool aid so far.
The highest level magos can do all the innovation they want because they are the ones who determine what is heresy and what isn't.
This makes perfect sense to me, if I was one of them, I would not want some uneducated adept to mess around with technology he does not understand yet.
All they need to do is push a wrong button and WHAM, DEMONS.
For example, the slaughter class grand cruiser is predisposed to chaos because some aspect of its design calls out to it.
This is not a matter of technology, this is a matter of LOLMAGIC.

If you want proof of innovation, look at MK8 power armour as a successful example of invention and the chalice class cruiser as an unsuccessful example of invention.

The only reason why the TAU aren't dead yet is luck
There are also rumours floating around that the ultrasmurfs are protecting them, but that's too retarded to be true

>> No.19848119

>The emperor is obviously just a chaos god, because he keeps humans fighting with heretics and agents of chaos

>> No.19848129

My google-fu is weak, reverse image search gives nothing. Please tell me someone has that image at higher (wallpaper-suitable) resolution.

>> No.19848139


"Many capured Ork weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork."
page 10 in the codex

>> No.19848150

Time for some mental gymnastics:

What sort of contrived craziness would it take to have an Astartes end up as a Rogue Trader?

>> No.19848161

I believe that one of the Legions suffered a catastrophic gene seed mutation greater than even the Thousand Sons, like a mutation level approaching Chaos Spawn. Whether they fell in combat or surrendered themselves to execution is interesting question.

>> No.19848163

So, gentlemen, what do you make of arbitres?
I love their helmets, I love judge Dredd, but I simply cannot find a good place for them to fit in my 40k.

They are not detectives - they are too flashy
They are not common enforcers - not numerous enough, PDF does that a lot better
They are not secret police - that's for what we have inquisition
They are not SWAT - killtroopers and military squads aka ksarkins take care of that.

Can you please help me with finding a reasonable place for them where they would actually be useful in their role?

>> No.19848164

there can be several other reasons to that: You simply can't use a choppa unless you're really inhumanly strong, waaagh field or not. Same for their weapons, they jam too much for a human to use them.

>> No.19848171

Anyone know more about this?

>> No.19848182


I don't have one, but if it helps that's an illustration from the inquisitor rulebook. I think it's on the back cover actually.

That books a goldmine for illustrations like that, has a load of fluff on the less covered aspects of the fluff as well.

>> No.19848185

>There are also rumours floating around that the ultrasmurfs are protecting them, but that's too retarded to be true

This rustles my jimmies. Also I like to view ultramarines as space romans, who are so efficient and holier than thou, that they are on the verge of splitting with the High Lords of Terra. Their autonomy in Ultramar is already a serious exception, but they don't show any signs of thinking to stop there. In your eyes - is this legit?

>> No.19848188

the arbiters are there to keep the local police forces in check and to handle the problems above the police forces' paygrade
They also give no fucks about the local politics, so they take care of people who are above the law, like nobles and other people ritch and influential enough to bribe the police and PDF away.

In short, they are a step between the local law enforcement and the inquisition.

>> No.19848192

They are all of the things you listed. They have Intelligencers, who are sneaky detective types. They're a paramilitary force capable of both planetwide law enforcement and special ops/crackdowns, though there are other forces they can and will leave those tasks to at times. They're certainly a secret police on some worlds, and perform some level of monitoring on every planet. There's a reason they generally get along well with the Inquisition.

>> No.19848203

About Astronomican - it was stated in some books, it is not essential to space travel, it just makes navigation much easier. If there was no Astronomican Navigators would still be able to traverse the warp, it would just take them more time.

>> No.19848205



The emperor manages to use psychic power, long before chaos came into being. And chaos wants to destroy any race that can use this power source, which it wants for itself. To do this, chaos pervert the extremes of human vices as a catchment for humans at all levels due to human nature.
The emperor, though wounded. Still clings on to a great deal of this power. As do premaris psychers. In order to keep humanity alive, the emperor useses his powers and this is explained to feral worlders as religion. Killing the cultists is only a part of the solution, denying chaos use of the warp energy is the main aim. This is why chaos seeks to kill in rituals and deamon posses. Even though this would gain them no emotions.
The adeptus arbites answer to the Governor who is appointed partly by the administratum. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to re-write 40k lore in a way the breaks its logic.
Corporations are almost unheard of in the imperium, especially as enterprise beyond the god emperor is suspecious. This is why so few warrants of traid are issued. Primarily to explorers. The remaining organisations either fall under religious orders like the mechanicus or noble houses who control ancestoral properties. Owning private property is not forbidden, but there are no employees, only indentured servants, slaves and subjects.

The only true corporation that exists in the whole of the imperium is probably ex imperial guard mercenaries. However, these are a recent addition as the terms of service in the IG would entail either winning a crusade or conscription untill the age of 35. All guard are conscripts and surviving to age 35 is very unlikely indeed, except for PDF guard, who might get off lucky..

>> No.19848214

IIRC, the truth is revealed in a DH scenario.

>> No.19848225

>but that's too retarded to be true

It's also completely false. One of the rumours regarding 6th ed was we were going to see the setting move on into the 42nd millenium. The Ultramarines and a few other Chapters were going to break away from the Imperium, and begin protecting the Tau after discovering messages left by the Emperor claiming an alien race with very little psychic potential would be instrumental in the final defeat of Chaos.

Thankfully, in the end, it was all bullshit. The 6th ed book's got nothing of the sort in it.

>> No.19848235

iirc in the DAoT the warp was exceendingly calm, so navigation was relatively easy. that said, i agree, they probably had something like the astronomican...just not as powerful. this period was ended by the birth of slaanesh i think? its a long time since i looked at 40klore.

>> No.19848237

>Also I like to view ultramarines as space romans, who are so efficient and holier than thou, that they are on the verge of splitting with the High Lords of Terra. Their autonomy in Ultramar is already a serious exception, but they don't show any signs of thinking to stop there. In your eyes - is this legit?

What I have seen, read and discussed earlier supports this
They are still loyal to the high lords, at least technically, but if a serious dispute came up, they would be liable to disobey and do what they believe is best instead of following orders.

>> No.19848240

That is truly the big mystery that always draws me in...what happened? How was it driven back? How costly was it?

And will it ever return?

>> No.19848242

Sorry if this is a horribly newfag question, but why is the human tech going backwards? Is it all just about 'lolmagic' and 'loldemunz'?

>> No.19848251

E) All of the above. They're the Imperium's version of the FBI or CIA (I forget your specific American branches and which one does which). Local law is left to local law enforcement. As long as the Imperium gets its Tithe, psykers are rounded up for when the Black Ships eventually visit and nobody goes consorting with heretics or aliens, then they stay out of things. They monitor the top and bottom levels of society to ensure that the galaxy-wide Imperial blanket laws are stuck to. They watch for chaotic or xenos-influenced cults, they watch for nobility whose schemes threaten the stability of the planet and its ability to produce the Tithe on time or to the required amount, they make sure the nobility and the mega-rich don't get any ideas about xeno-tech.

They aren't concerned with local politics or events beyond that. The whole planet can rise up in revolution, and as long as it stays loyal to the Imperium and still pays that tithe, the Arbitrators will sit back and watch it happen.

They are, essentially, what the Inquisition would be if it worked within the law and got its shit together.

>> No.19848252


Ooo do tell. I thought it was just something you could base a scenario off, and was never officially explained.

>> No.19848267

Mostly because shit is breaking down and nobody knows how to fix it anymore, combined with reluctance to innovate.

>> No.19848270

Yeah, I know where it's from. Can't find a scanned version of the Inquisitor rulebook, and my own old copy has long disappeared. I was hoping against hope that someone had a large version, because that has to be one of my all-time favourite 40k images.

>> No.19848272

Anyone know about this either. Suppose to be a Doom and Quake reference, but this is crazy

>401.M34 The Howling - Space Marines of the Black Templars Chapter end the Catelexis Hersey by executing the Cacodominus, an alien cyborg whose formidable psychic presence allowed it to control the populance of thirteen hundred planetary systems. Alas the Cacodominus' death scream echoes and amplifies through the Warp, burning out the minds of a billion Astropaths and distorting the signal of the Astronomican. Millions upon millions of ships are lost in the resulting upheaval and entire sub-sectors slide into barbarism without the dictats of the Adeptus Terra to guide them.

>> No.19848277

Rogue Trader-era fluff has been nixed, unless you still like Half-Eldar Marines and Khornate Night Lords/Word Bearers.

Charters are hereditary and Marines don't have a vow of poverty. He's the only son of a Rogue Trader who uses his writ as carte blanche for seizing new recruiting worlds, artefacts, an resources, spying on xenos, searching for lost worlds, and fighting pirates.

>> No.19848281

Heh, Dark Heresy conspiracies. The best ones. Komus, Tyrant Star and The Harrowing are my favourites. I myself view Komus as one of the C'tan(imho more of them have survived), that was most probably wounded or crippled and now wanders among the stars in forgotten paths and 'collects his toll' of life from the worlds that once belonged to him. The Harrowing however... I really like them, but imho they are depicted as too powerful, so I can't really interpret them anyhow.

>> No.19848299

>Also, I am interested in your opinions about the two lost primarchs.

-Empire stumbles upon Kroot original homeworld, populated by primitive Kroot possesing only stone age level technology.
-Due to their natural ability to incorporate DNA from all sorts of creatures, Emperor fears they might one day turn into race stronger than humanity and orders exterminatus.
-The two lost primarchs, having lived on technologicaly advanced, freedom loving, peaceful and democratic worlds are shocked and disgusted by their father's "savagery".
-They decide to save the helpless alien race.
-Many of their men see this act as a betrayal of humanity, joing the ranks of Ultramarines or someone and warning the Emperor of the lost primarch's treachery.
-Space Wolves are dispatched to destoy what remains of the two lost legions and exterminate the Kroot. In the resulting battle one of the legions is competely destroyed and their primarch killed, nbut they manage to hold long enough to let the other escape with sever thousands of Kroots.

>> No.19848306

Didn't the Haarlock Trilogy confirm the Tyrant Star as warpy as all fuck?

>> No.19848330

Mostly about that, plus historical factors.

Before the Imperium, and after the fall of the main human empires, human colonies were isolated from each other. Most of them regressed a lot, or were too advanced and were pillaged and exterminated by xenos.

On Mars, a cult devoted originally to the maintenance of anti-radiation shield domes gained influence as culture regressed (due to isolation again) and became the Mechanicum.

Since then, the Adeptus Mechanicus has proven its worth: by ritualizing science and controlling very closely technological development (because, yes, they're constantly creating new technologies, but it requires strict protocols) they've managed to prevent many people from creating doomsday machines that would have wiped out humanity ten thousand times already. On top of that, technological innovation is deemed less safe (rightfully so) than simply trying to retrieve and emulate ancient human technologies. But the efforts invested in these researches are diverted from actual R&D.
As a result, the imperium makes one step forward, two steps backward with every passing century.

>> No.19848331

>Sorry if this is a horribly newfag question, but why is the human tech going backwards? Is it all just about 'lolmagic' and 'loldemunz'?

It isn't exactly going backwards anymore, at least for the most part.
The problem is that the mechanicus isn't very big on sharing secrets, even among its own subfactions and forge worlds are occasionaly lost to war, disaster or whatever dickery.
Sometimes, the forge world you lost is the only one who had a certain chunk of knowledge.

While the mechs sometimes lose a pattern, their technology is slowly moving forward.
SLOWLY and for good reason
Remember that slaughter class grand cruiser I mentioned earlier?
Well, every time you make a new chunk of technology, you have to test it for 100-500 years to make sure you didn't make a pattern that is also a gateway to chaos.
Otherwise, that pattern would move into mass production and get spread all over the place.

There is also the issue of reliability, patterns that are not thoroughly tested in battle are looked down upon for obvious reasons.

>> No.19848353


I just found my new desktop wallpaper, thank you very much.

>> No.19848356

I thought the emperor was more into talking with xenos then blowing them up.

>> No.19848374


>> No.19848398

you also didn't mention the whole men of iron thing
they don't want that again

>> No.19848404

not quite

>> No.19848405

Commence dump of Dr. Baron von Evilsatan's brilliant copypasta

The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare shithole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fucked. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find shit, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

>> No.19848409


How incredibly enlightening. I'm sure it's too much of an effort to explain in any way, shape or form why that gent's wrong, isn't it.

>> No.19848411

About the Primarch;
All of them were stolen away from Terra by Chaos, right?
My guess is that they were simply dragged into the warp, unlike the other Primarchs who were simply left on backwater planets.
Just a guess though, I have nothing to back that up

>> No.19848417

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fucked with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fucking grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fucking Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seek to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fucking please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day shit. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Lard Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the manufactorum before they can be killed.

>> No.19848422

Nope. The Emperor didn't particularly care about killing Xenos for the sake of religious reason, as in the current Imperium. He was very much about driving Xenos off worlds that humans could colonise, and killing any Xenos races that might challenge humans for possession of those worlds.

>> No.19848425


>Join mechanicus as a boy
>Rise in ranks
>Get an idea for a really fuck awesome lasgun pattern!
>Fuck this is 25% more efficient!
>Gets put into mass production
>Oh shit you were a latent psyker
>Oh shit, those "ideas" were warp influenced visions
>Oh shit, the lasgun pattern as a series of chaos runes within it when the parts are assembled
>Billions fall to chaos corruption
>You are corrupted


>Join mechanicus as a boy
>Rise in ranks
>Get an idea for a really fuck awesome lasgun pattern!
>Fuck this is 25% more efficient!
>Is overseen by peers
>Tested for three hundred years
>Found to have chaos taint
>Traced back to you
>Pattern is destroyed, you are dismantled and purged
>One person died.

>> No.19848427

Well, yeah, the new rule is that, as long as you have two brain cells to rub together, you're cool
If it's a self aware person without fleshy bits in the think-box, it's heresy

>> No.19848439

This is why they do not like ANYONE fucking with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to fuck with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fucked everything up and the Heresy double-fucked it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, and they never have.

>> No.19848444



>> No.19848448

That's the most entertaining thing I've read all day.

>> No.19848457

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fucking military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

I am well aware of this, but it's an interpretation that fits well, works with the vast majority of existing fluff, and is incredibly thematic.

>> No.19848460

He only ever talked to the ones he couln't easily blow up like the Eldar. Primitive race with no warp capable ships? Tough luck for them, you got to make lebensraum for the master race.

>> No.19848464

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

>> No.19848468

The average human doesn't know the science behind machinery. But why the deep control over technology? Because LOLMAGIC. See, there's "psychic powers" and then there's "sorcery". Psychic powers are a genetic mutation that allows your brain to FORCE RAW EMOTION from HELL to do things. Sorcery is using all sorts of rituals, pacts, unholy geometries, chanting, etc. Sorcery is much more "magical" than psychic powers. Magnus was barred from using SORCERY, not his innate PSYCHIC POWERS. The Emperor had no problems with Magnus blowing shit up with fireballs, it's when Magnus started drawing circles in the dirt to allow him to teleport his armies across the galaxy that he had a problem.

That's why the Imperium has the AdMech. To keep idiots from experimenting (Daemons LOVE technology), and because of the whole "unholy geometry" thing. Certain Imperial ship patterns for example, are cursed. Why? Because within their unimaginable depths, somewhere, lines cross. Maybe it's wires? Or the hallways? Or the window fits JUST right with the door? Whatever the cause, the geometry of the area just speaks to Daemons and Chaos. And all it takes is one guy to fuck his wife underneath that unholy wire crossing, or one woman to give her husband a bloody nose near that evil window-door combo. And bam. Entire ship, gone. Sucked into the warp. That's an ACCIDENT. Imagine what the Dark Mechanicus could do, if they incorporate said evil geometry into entire PLANETS.

>> No.19848473

Since some some still don't get the idea, try this.

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the rea lbooks anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fucking-where near it. Where the fuck did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

>> No.19848485

Imagine this. You've been charged with designing a new circuitboard. Just as you're putting on the finishing touches and are about to send it off to pre-production, your eyes start to bleed. When you bring your hands up to wipe them, you horribly mutilate your face since your hands have inexplicably become claws. Just as you begin to scream out a keening wail of incomprehensible anguish, your ribcage bursts out of your chest. Your last few minutes alive involve you hearing it laugh at you.

All because that fucking circuitboard had a random pattern etched on it that sort of resembled a portion of the true name of a greater Daemon. Oops.

Morale of the story? Keep using what already works.

>> No.19848490

I used them to make a lost legion. I love making fluff and felt the lost legions give me the greatest creative leyway in that regard.

>> No.19848496

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adpetus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single shit decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a shit life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die.

>> No.19848498

Any thoughts on what "The Golden Men", "Stone Men" and "Iron Men" are?

>> No.19848513

>Join mechanicus as a boy
>Rise in ranks
>Get an idea for a really fuck awesome lasgun pattern!
>Fuck this is 25% more efficient!
>Gets put into mass production
>Oh shit you were a latent psyker
>Oh shit, those "ideas" were warp influenced visions
>Oh shit, the lasgun pattern as a series of chaos runes within it when the parts are assembled
>Billions fall to chaos corruption
>You are corrupted

I saw the exact same thing happen in one RP thread - Lords of the Fall by ShaperV
Sure, that's not cannon, but he did it so fucking well it's worth being mentioned.

In short, the high lords of terra found a brand new tech base in the squat worlds(or something else related to the squats, the details are fuzzy) and the master of the administratum put it into mass production to keep himself independent of the AdMech.

Turns out that the entire techbase was developed and planted by Tzeentch.
The master of the administratum turned traitor and the plasma generators he made started turning into warp portals.

Shit was hilarious

>> No.19848515

well, the joining the ultramariens part is a common tale, people claim their numbers were bolstered after the two were thoroughly Rogered out of command

>> No.19848521

Iron men have been confirmed to be rebellious AI.

>> No.19848537

Just here to ask if anyone knows about something I came across a while back called a necron world engine, couldn't find anything else aside from a small paragraph on a site that talked about a massive battle between a immense number of imperial ships and this world engine.

>> No.19848544

Golden men are humans as we are now.

Stone men are a different type of human, whether in idealogy or actually physically different. I've heard Stone men are actually engineers/scientists as an explanation. Where Golden men are philosophers that are slowly dying out.

Iron men are AI, created by the Stone Men

>> No.19848549

Lexicanum has all that's on it.

>> No.19848553

You are welcome.
Noko, are you talking about this cruiser? What exactly was about it's design that made it prone to chaos? http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaughter-class_Cruiser

>> No.19848557

it's literally all there is to know about it.

>> No.19848560


As in, androids or single-consciousness computers with many remote-controlled droids?

>> No.19848574

Think Geth from Mass Effect.

The bodies are drone that one Iron Man can control many of.

>> No.19848580

Men of Gold were the original humans. We are the Men of Gold.
Men of Stone were genetically engineered humans. IE: We can make them have to sleep less by just tweaking with this gene! What could go wrong!
Men of Iron were the Androids that revolted and caused the whole "Abominable Intelligence" thing.

My Conspiracy Theories? The Ultramarines are the lost two legions. The Emperor lead Russ and the Space Wolves to kill them off, this is canon. What they did wrong is a mystery. But we do know what happened after that. The two legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines. Both times when a Legion was destroyed, the Ultramarines ranks absolutely swelled. But what does this mean? It means that Rowboat Girlyman WASN'T a pompous douche who only wrote the Codex Astartes to stroke his own ego. It means he wrote it to keep the other two legions (Now merged with his) in line. The Ultramarines are now made up of three geneseeds, each Mehreen getting a randomly chosen Geneseed of the three. As the Two Deleted Legions were deleted, there's no way of telling which marines are of Girlyman's seed, or of the Deleted Two. So, in order to keep order - among ALL THREE of his bastard children - Girlyman made the Codex. Because without the rigid codes and laws it sets down, without the pompous narcisism, the defects in the other two's geneseed may come out. And the Imperium simply cannot handle that. Two thirds of the most numerous Legion (and all their successor chapters) going rogue? It'd tear the Imperium apart.

>> No.19848583

>Their autonomy in Ultramar is already a serious exception
Their codex and the rulebook says they aren't the only ones who rule an entire subsector. They're just the most prominent space marine run subsector.

>> No.19848605

it depends. hereteks managed to replicate or repair androids that were Iron Men, but we have examples of Iron Men that were simply individual AI controlling thousands of bodies and infrastructure simultaneously.

>> No.19848610

The iron men were essentially cyclons from battlestar galactica only worse
much, much worse and then a large chunk of them were chaos'd

There is not conclusive info on the stone and golden men that I know of other than that the stone men made the iron men.

Some theories are that the golden men were psykers, the stone cyborgs and the iron AI.
Also, the iron men made the starships, titans and everything else that can be considered high imperial technology and the finer points of DAOT tech are literally incomprehensible to the humand brain.
The AdMech builds these devices anyway and that's why they don't understand shit about them

That's one of the less plausible theories, anyway, it does not fit in with a LARGE chunk of the fluff.

>> No.19848635

The one thing of Iron Men being made shows they are AI being they all turn on at once instead of reacting when people attack them individually.

>> No.19848655

Too many great answer to list them all, thanks /tg/!

>> No.19848669

Bump for this

>> No.19848674

Sorry, it's the repulsive grand cruiser
I blame al_103 for my mistake

Something about its construction makes it cursed.
As a result it tends to end up in the hands of chaos.
There should be more sources elsewhere, this is the only one I could dig up from the top of my head

>> No.19848687


I like you and approve of this. This made it worth to create this thread.

>> No.19848692


If the Golden Men were baseline humans then, the Stone Men being cyborgs would make a lot of sense for two reasons: First, cybernetic enhancement makes manual labour and space travel far easier and safer. Secondly, in 40k bio-enhancement with bits of tech is extremely common (at least for anyone vaguely important), lending credence to the idea that they're the descendants of the Golden Men (when it's just augmentation's become more ubiquitous).

>> No.19848696

iirc Battlefleet Gothic said something about it in its entry for the Repulsive.

>> No.19848706

This doesn't make sense at all because the only living race of humans left in 40k is Stone men

All the Golden Men died out.

>> No.19848718

oh fuck that was hilarious
I forget how clever some of /tg/ is

>> No.19848731

Wait, I thought men of stone were proto-servitors?

>> No.19848738

I personally have a couple of conspiracy theories.

1. The God Emperor of Man and the Emperor of Man are different beings. The former is purely a warp entity (think of it like a minor chaos God), created by human worship of the believed ideals of the emperor. Due to the difference between what the emperor actually believes and what humanity thinks he stands for their worship instead empowers what can be called the chaos God of humanity. This chaos God has daemonic servants just like the big 4 although they are fewer in numbers, they include greater daemons (beings like the Sanguinor who have no known origin), daemon princ(ecess)es (living saints, who were once human, but were empowered by their actions), and lesser daemons (the Legion of the Damned). The greater and lesser daemons of the GEOM take the form that humans believe their saviors would take, the former appearing as one of if not the most beloved primarch in the Imperium, the latter being the Adeptus Astartes, legendary human warriors that all Imperial citizens look up to.

>> No.19848740


That's the point - it's nothing but a mistake, as the people travelling between worlds (and likely colonising them) would have been augmented. The kicker is that there's little difference between the unaugmented Golden and Stone men, just how they see themselves.

>> No.19848745

What we know about "lost" Legions is this:

- Both were found by the Emperor
- Both fought in the Great Crusade
- They had their "seperate tragedies"
- Using word "tragedy" implies something different than just treachery.
- Space Wolves were at least unleashed on at least one of "missing" Legions.
- It's possible Marines from one or both "missing" Legions were reasigned to Ultramarines.
- When Dorn is speaking with Malcador about his "missing" brothers he speaks like they were imprisoned somewhere rather than dead.
- They were censored long before Heresy, at least 50 years, probably more.
- Both "missing" Primarchs were found before Alpharius Omegon was found by Horus.

>> No.19848749

pt 2.

2. The 21st founding involved significant experimentation, including attempts to recreate the primarchs, and attempts to use the still pure geneseed of the traitor legions. Assuming that some geneseed from each legion is kept in a vault in Terra somewhere the traitor legions should still have their geneseed in there, which should still be pure since it was stored in there presumably before the heresy and before any chapters suffered from large scale mutation. As a result the geneseed was used to create new chapters, that would in some way be prevented from rebelling. The two we know of are the Minotaurs, and the Blood Ravens, coming from World Eater and Thousand Son stock respectively. In order to prevent them from ever turning traitor the former are kept on a tight leash by the high lords of Terra and afforded the best equipment, acting as Imperial attack dogs, while the latter has their early history outright erased, so they can never know of their origins.

>> No.19848768

Augmented by mechanical augments make no sense.

Genetic makes tons of sense though. But I still subscribe to the philosopher and scientist theory.

>> No.19848782

Here's a (rather large) list of EVERYTHING we know about them

Where did you find the bit that they were imprisoned?

>> No.19848784

also the rift is just in evolution as in abhumans
but yeah, mostly cultural

>> No.19848842

Oh, another thing I rememebered just now.
I'm pretty sure that someone somewhere mentioned that all the human colonists were genetically augmented, so this means that natural baseline humans are extinct and have been extinct for a while now.
Well, there never really were any true baseline humans since the Deciever modified them to carry the blank genes and the old ones are also rumoured to have modified humanity even before the deciever, but nevermind that.

anyway, it's possible that the golden men were pre-augmentation humans, the orignal inhabitants of the earth, the stone men are the people modified to move out into outer space(this makes sense, they would be a lot more durable to make them more successful at surviving out there, so they are "made of stone") and the iron men are AIs that went berserk(this may or may not be chaotic influence)

Also, this augmentation explains how 40k humans pull off some of the crazy shit they do. Like, you know, keeping your heart beating on catachan for more than an hour.

aaand, I'm off to sleep, this was a fun thread

>> No.19848843

But scientist is really just a type of philosopher. Science used to be called natural philosophy after all.

>> No.19848880

All marines have their specialty, whether following the rules (Ultramarines), charging into hand to hand (World Eaters), flying into hand to hand (Blood Angels), psychological warfare (Night Lords), or something else. Now, what if one of the primarchs had their specialty be the fact that he was a pariah? All of his brothers are at least marginally psychic, and humans instinctively hate him, so his childhood would be like Konrad Curze's childhood except no one would ever make him king. Even when the emperor came he would never spend time with him because his presence is outright lethal.

So hated by everyone he ever knew, including his own family, he decides to go renegade, perhaps planning on starting an empire of his own, with blackjack and hookers. Needing to deal with him the emperor send the least psychic of his sons to destroy him, Russ hunted down the primarch and executed him. The survivors may have been mixed with the UM, but left to die out in time, their geneseed not being passed on.

>> No.19848883

The Old Ones didn't make humanity. Well, they DID, but not...Okay, so, the Old Ones are dicking around, making life. So, they make a group of primitive monkeys that are not at all sentient, and they drop them off at some bumfuck random planet. Humanity then evolved from those monkeys.

Also, I like to think that - since the Deciever is now in pieces, and has been for billions of years - the Pariah Gene is thanks to some impossible to imagine scheme done by a Necron lord.

Humanity x Necrons teaming up, Tau x Eldar? I can dig this.

>> No.19848893

I use that as a loose term for the change in ideas for Pre-industrial and post-industrial humanity.

Now it could be a line in the modern era instead of industrial though.

All we know is that they both co-exist till M20.

>> No.19848914

Doesn't work as Immortals are normal humans except for being immortal yet are no different than normal stone men.

>> No.19848926

I like this. I like this a lot.

However, we don't have concrete proof that "invisibility" means "Pariah". Hell, we don't even know if the missing two even had invisibility, given that three of the Primarchs we know already had "invisibility" (Mortarion and the Death Shroud, Corvax can hide in the shadows, as can Konrad).

>> No.19848929


>old ones are also rumoured to have modified humanity even before the deciever, but nevermind that.

Especially when you consider (in old fluff, mind), that Eldar and Humans can mate, the idea of the Old Ones coming across a planet with some remarkably clever cave-dwelling apes, and getting the idea to 'uplift' them into a much cleverer, more physically capable species to fight their war makes sense.
Now, ignoring the fact that the Old Ones were incredibly incompetent and fucked up every single creation in their twisted menageries (The hedonistic psykers that would blow a hole in the universe, the unfinished sociopaths that spread like fucking mould, and the universe's most incredible engineers that happen to lack consciousness or creativity)

>> No.19848957

He wasn't killed.

He was lost. They specifically say, not dead.

>> No.19848960


>didn't even finish the post, goddamn

then the spread of the Eldar and their culture predating Humanity (in the Homo Sapiens Sapiens sense) is actually fairly plausible (meaning the creatures the Old Ones genefucked was Homo Erectus or Homo Neanderthalis or something).

>> No.19848989

I think this should be "what we THINK we know about them." 40k fluff is all reports, legends, myths etc. etc. to allow for a more open setting.

And one of the biggest issues I have with the HH books is that some people have taken the lost legion purge as absolute canon rather than a myth. While they can certainly have that in their head canon, I hate it when I see people online (and sometimes irl) tell others that because they decided to play a lost legion, they're having bad wrong fun because the HH novels says they're dead.

Same thing could be said of this new catgirl trend that's popped up. Who gives a shit what the other guy believes/plays, it doesn't invalidate your head canon does it?

just my two cents, I'm done ranting now.

>> No.19848992


Here's an interesting read for you guys.

I don't agree with the Stone Men stuff in it because it says the Golden Men did in one of the posts but the author thinks the Stone men died too because they are cyborgs, so no humans are alive in that case.

But it has a ton of info on the Iron Men.

>> No.19848997

You mean a race of all Pariah humans and Necrons vs. Chaos immune Tau and Eldar.

>> No.19849011

>Slaanesh came over
>fucked everything up.
Oh wow.

>> No.19849013

Tau aren't immune to Chaos.

Etherals get possessed now, and the Tau aren't really a big meal to the Demons.

Eldar are fucking terrified of pariahs and blanks.

>> No.19849029


The birth of Slaanesh was what ended the DAoT, and enabled warp travel and Communication again. The Great Crusade began shortly after.

>> No.19849047

And the Warp became a lot more crazy to go through which is why the Emperor was working on the Webway.

>> No.19849056

Well actually the warp storms that fractured the DAoT mankind started thousands of years before the Eye showed up (they were probably the growing storm that would turn into Slaanesh/The Eye)

But it also collapsed because psykers started popping up and fucking shit up and getting possessed on top of Men of Iron rebellions.

DAoT mankind got gangbanged by the galaxy.

>> No.19849082

It's the difference between "I wonder how to make this Las-Gun more efficient" and "I wonder what happens if I jiggle this wire and pull the trigger". Notice the differences:

Stone Men:
>I wonder how

Golden Men:
>I wonder what

Small, but key difference with huge implications.

>> No.19849112

Yes, you get the idea.

They are different ideologies.

Look at nowadays too, philosophy is dying out slowly and being replaced with hard science.

>> No.19849113

the cat thing is so painfully blown out of proportion it's shocking, everyoen ignores the fact that in the same paragraph, merfolk and something else all together are mentioned as listed abhumans... motherfucking merfolk

>> No.19849115

If somebody pulled the plug on the golden throne, would the emperor immediately reincarnate? It would make humanity's eternal effort to keep him in his current half dead state wonderfully ironic.

>> No.19849119


Could it then be a reference to a future society much like ancient Greece, where philosophers held high positions in society?

I do think however, that >>19848842 is probably closer to the mark.

>> No.19849160

Except that>>19848914 disproves that claim unless that Golden Men were are strong as super humans.

All it says is they are strong limbed and smart.

>> No.19849204

>the Old Ones were incredibly incompetent and fucked up every single creation in their twisted menagerie

With glee, Old Ones started "uplifting" primitive apes populating Earth. But then suddenly their smartest gene-enginner got an idea. He would go meditate to the mountains taking every other race they made so far into consideration and think a way to make the ultimate slave race. But as he pondered the Eldar, the Orks and other races they made so far, he realized how shitty jobs they did. So he returned to his people, but in the meantime the apes were already turned into race of psykers, physicaly very similar ot Old Ones themselves, with unique ability to erase all knowledge of creatures they attacked with their psychic powers, happily walking around the other Old Ones. Realizing how dangerous this creation was, he convinced the other Old Ones to destroy this creation. But their attack wasn't swift enough and the homo neanderthalis defended itself teh only way it know... Rest is history.

>> No.19849236

Am I the only one who thinks that the DAoT is cooler than 40k's setting?

>> No.19849239

Some stuff I like to believe:
>The Harrowing was NOT Chaos related, but far worse than Chaos could ever hope to be.
If it ever comes back, either the entire galaxy will drop EVERYTHING and band together to fight it (Eldar striketeams clearing a path for Tyranids, Inquisition turning a blind-eye to cultists, some formal alliances involving the Tau and smaller xenos outside the Greater Good, etc.) and JUST BARELY survive, or the galaxy will fall.

>One of the lost Primarchs was a blank, the other was "psycho at birth".
The blank bequeathed his legion to Girlyman and took his truest marines on a heroic sacrifice to take down the evil Primarch. He never met his father, was generally a sadsack because everyone outside his legion hated him, but hoped that his sacrifice would earn a better name for himself and those like him. And this being 40k, his legion was left to rot (tons died at Calth, but were the only reason Erebus took longer than expected at turning it into a daemon world, and eventually had to flee) and his name erased.

The Evil Primarch was all crazy all the time. I don't mean "bad dude", I mean genuine clinical psychopathy. The few good seeds in his legion fled to Ultramar, and the rest prepped for "Operation: Ass-Rape The Great Crusade". This was interrupted by Blank Primarch. And then Russ showed up and tried to break it up, and the two lost Primarchs fled. They're still around somewhere, continuing their eternal war.

>The Sisters genuinely care about mankind.
And they will soon bring back the Sisters of Silence, as a giant finger to the Grey Knights.

>> No.19849243

Legit question, me and my gf were discussing on the way home from work. Why are there no african americans/blacks in the far future?

Or did I miss that piece of fluff

>> No.19849268

No. I also think the Unification Wars is cooler.

>> No.19849280

The inquisitor in Dawn of War is black.

DAoT has several thousand Titans per world and doesn't involve any psyker stuff.

>> No.19849281

Everyone lives in a hive, where there is no sun, or in SPESS where there is no sun.

>> No.19849290

Salamanders are black. Black guardsmen show up regularly (Cain even has a black lesbian guardswoman). There is an entire world of space muslims.

>> No.19849292

because everyone who writes in the setting is white.
Though I believe one of the novel mentions a black guy.

Salamanders are still black in my headcanon.

>> No.19849295

More likely the Old Ones got bored and left, the Eldar with their quadruple-helix DNA managed civilisation long before we did but perhaps we evolved naturally. Or maybe we did get a slight push from the Old Ones.
>But their attack wasn't swift enough and the homo neanderthalis defended itself the only way it knew how
Modern Humans are not quite descended from Homo Neanderthalis. Neanderthals were more likely a parallel line of evolution that died out (Fossils have been found of other Homo genus creatures much more resembling Homo Sapiens Sapiens whilst Neanderthals were still knocking about).
It IS likely, though, that these other proto-humans DID mate with Neanderthals on occasion. It's possible it's in our blood, but not much.

>EVOLUTION rteffac

Captcha seems very interested in this.

>> No.19849296

Its good but The legion of the damned is already explained

>> No.19849309


>Hurf durf


>> No.19849310

I wonder what heroes they had. I wonder what names and deeds were held in high esteem. I wonder what gods walked among men, and what demons haunted their minds.

I wonder why we will never know.

>> No.19849313

What? Oh, right, that thing. They do exist, there's more than a few on Catachan if the cover of their old codex is to be believed. Racism isn't a big deal in 40k, its the whole thing of "Ebony and Ivory in perfect harmony, beating the ever loving crap out of green and purple"

>> No.19849318

I would like to point out that Neanderthal DNA is in our DNA and this has been proven.

>> No.19849323

40k takes place 38,000 years after where we are today. Think about that for a moment. Let's say that it took 10,000 years for current genetic divisions to take root.

There's been four times enough time for that sort of shit to take place, on BILLIONS of planets ALL ACROSS THE GALAXY.

There may be people who have the skin of the darkest Negro, but are otherwise Asian. There's Albino people who look like Mexicans. There's fucking ogres, halflings, beastmen, mermaids, plant folk, void born, hairy women (felinids), and all sorts of zany shit. Some guy with dark skin, big lips, and a big nose, is not out of the question.

>> No.19849339


I did say that. Read it again. I'm saying it's not a direct descendancy.

>> No.19849357

Games workshop should honestly make expansions to the regular TT game, make a DAoT and perhaps great crusade setting, just have one big rulebook with all of the new models and rules, and get more profit by people buying new models for what is essentially the same game reskinned. Why haven't they at least tried this yet?

>> No.19849378

Before humanity invented warp travel we killed off the blacks for appearances.

>> No.19849381


Thanks elegan/tg/entlemen. As always very helpful. sincerly, I appreciate it.

>> No.19849394

Because DAoT war gaming wouldn't be fun. Baneblades as scout tanks and the like is a bit silly even by 40k standards and playing an army of Culture level power would make it to easy
Great Crusades would be awesome, even if it was just new army lists with a few new units and some scenarios

>> No.19849396

It's been a hella time since I've played 40k, so I'm very hazy on details, but lemme try my hand on that...

Wouldn't it make more sense that the warp was a lot easier to navigate before the shit hit the fan? I've seen references to this, that once upon a time it was smooth and safe, but one of the main breaking points seem to be Slaanesh's birth as a moment when the warp became much more dangerous.

Can you tell me when that happened in relation to humanity's history? If it's after the DAoT, my idea holds merit as the Eye of Terror doesn't even exist then.

>> No.19849414

Considering the Iron Men War was probably the biggest war in all of 40k history, maybe besides the War in Heaven, it would have been hell.

Imagine fighting Terminators that use chainsaws and laser cannons. The could interface with the human mind and read our thoughts.

They only cared about humans being died. But not all Iron Men rebelled though, but Humans still killed those, as no machine could be trusted.

Imagine seeing thousands of Titans fighting against something that doesn't have any emotion or mercy, that would throw their drones in endless swarms at your lines just to see you all die.

Necrons can at least be rationed with and have some emotion, but these things were true monsters.

>> No.19849423

>Baneblades as scout tanks
That's /tg/ fanfict.

>> No.19849432


Because GW's run by shareholders and 'businesspeople' as opposed to anyone remotely clever, who could turn one hell of a buck and still keep people happy.

All modern large businesses are run pretty much the same way by the same kind of people. There's a reason it's all going to shit.

>> No.19849442

Pre Fall of Eldar.

Right before the Age of Strife.

>> No.19849455

and DAoT titans were apparently scary as fuck, the IoM's current titans being called something like "Pathetic imitations made by ignorant children."

>> No.19849464


Even so, it's really nothing when you consider most planets had entire titan legions to defend them. Imagine the Culture crossed with Battletech. That was what the DAoT was like.

>> No.19849477

Is there something I'm missing that makes the Sisters of Battle and Black Templar at each others throat's so badly according to the new Allies chart? The Sisters have Tau, both Eldar, Necrons, and BLACK TEMPLAR in their Desperate Allies list.

One of these things does not seem like the other, espcially when you consider they, in theory, have the most in common between the major Marine books; mutual hatred of witches, close range firefights, and hatred as their primary power source.


>> No.19849480


STC of the DAoT Titans. Could be bigger ones they made, but they are direct descendants of the DAoT ones. This has been proven in fluff.

>> No.19849497



>> No.19849502

The Sisters of Battle serve the ecclisarchy and inquisition. While super zealous and all that, I don't think the Black Templars are fans of either.

>> No.19849510


Maybe the Templars just don't like girls.

>> No.19849516

Okay, want to test out a bit of technobabble on you guys.

Basicly I was in a discussion with someone and the whole "charge lasgun cells by throwing them in a fire" thing came up, which, as they pointed out, isn't really how batteries work.

So how does this sound as an explanation:

Lasgun chargepacks are molten salt batteries, with a secondary battery devoted to keeping the MSB at high temperatures. It's the latter that needs to be charged, and the whole throwing it into a fire heats the MSB so it returns to its molten state. But soldifies more quickly (hence the fewer shots).

>> No.19849555

The anon was probably referring to the STC of the Castigator Titan which was apparently the original titan and they did use the quote referring to Imperial Titans, "pale imitations made by ignorant children".

The STC was chaos-corrupted though so they had to destroy it.

>> No.19849556


I can believe this. I mean it still leaves out what the secondary powercell is but it's a start.

>> No.19849559

You have 20k years of tech development for those batteries to be made.

It could use thermogenerators.

Either way, it damages the battery permanently and takes hours to work that way.

Just handwavium it.

>> No.19849567

Also, while we are at it, is my favorite crackpot theory is that the Golden Throne is actually PREVENTING the Emperor from ascending into full god status, and that Living Saints and the such are his 'demons', with the Sisters able to channel part of his godly powers into their Faith abilities.

>> No.19849569

>pictured: a DAoT Titan

>> No.19849635

I can't imagine the power fielded by DAoT warships.

Just imagine seeing one of those things.

>> No.19849641


Exactly, it's more down to philosophy. Remember that the Sisters of battle venerate the Emperor as a God and the Ecclisarchy at best sees Astartes as glory hounds accountable to no one and as mutant freaks at worse.

Space Marines on the other hand see the Emperor as the greatest human who ever lived and not a god. Hell the Space Wolves have a guy who fought alongside the Emperor at one point. So you can imagine them having a chuckle or too at some crazy lady waving a book in their face saying to pray to the God-Emperor.

>> No.19849644

Less so black people and more so white guys that got turned black by their environment. Also. Salamanders are fucking bros.

>> No.19849647

Well, it would just be your regular ultracapacitors or flow batteries. It's just that as far as I know, you can't actually charge a battery through thermal energy.
So the secondary cell is unaffected by the "sticking it in fire" process, and could quite possibly be damaged, taking out the whole lasgun (hello 30% failure rate).

>> No.19849664

Except they didn't. Hell just read the section of the rulebook on STCs, most colonies didn't even use anything as advanced as a land raider. Most human colonies might have a defence force similar to the current Imperial Guard simply because it would be retarded wasting the little adamantium you do have on the hulls of tanks that will never see action.

>> No.19849670


Yeah, but more then other Space Marines? More then the blood drinking vampires and wolfoids? More then the 'lets use them as hats' entire army of witches Grey Knights? Something just... seems off.

>> No.19849681

and this

Does fluff state what would happen if the Emperor actually died?

>> No.19849683


>> No.19849690


Which would be fine if it as ALL marines they were Deperate with. But it's not. It's the 'friendly' Xenos and the BT.

Like I said, one of those is not like the other.

>> No.19849694

Two theories.

Sensei and Star Child theory is best theory cause they are "Emperor" Champions like there are Chaos Champions.

>> No.19849699


The Hell-Class weapons in the Revelation Space series are fairly close to what I'd imagine DAoT weapons to be like - almost self-aware monstrosities each capable of wiping out entire planets for breakfast - and the ships carry LOTS.

>> No.19849723

Ah sweet thanks.

That's part of why I posted it here, knowing this place, I was sure I'd get something interestingly sciency rather than just "it's space magic."

>> No.19849739

Not to mention the fact that there is a powerful as fuck Iron Man powering the ship, and that they used actual science, so their shields and armor would be way better.

>> No.19849742

Guys.... What if the Harrowing....

Bear with me here...

What if the Harrowing...

Was a DAoT weapon that got loose?

>> No.19849777


Here's another.

Science is awesome.

Make more sense that a few AI survived and escaped inclosure, because they were defeated using warp magics, and there were no real human psykers during the time they were alive, so they could have been quickly defeated by them.

>> No.19849783

Are you TRYING to give us nightmares?

>> No.19849798

What's the Harrowing?

>> No.19849810

see >>19848171

>> No.19849863

Fuck's sake /tg/, this happens every time. You try to have an interesting discussion about pre-Imperium 40k, and all it turns into is schoolyard fanwank.

The Dark Age of Technology was called the Dark Age because a) they still had all their knowledge base and so science could actually be done, and b) they didn't revere technology as sacred and holy. That's it. They traveled the warp only during the latter years, initial colonisation of the galaxy was done by slow-as-fuck barges with the crew and colonists in stasis (ie, Stone Men, as a thought that's just come to me). They had no idea what the Warp actually was or what psykers were, and until the very last millennia or so when they experimentally confirmed it they staunchly believed that psykers weren't real. They didn't have Necron-level 'fuck you physics, my technology is indistinguishable from magic' levels of power. They didn't even rival the Eldar Empire - which is the entire reason the two didn't come into major contact beyond a possible non-aggression pact. They had the STC systems, which meant that wherever there was a planet even vaguely capable of supporting life, fuck you, humanity is going there and we are going to thrive whether the world wants us to or not, even if we have to build our trucks out of whatever ungodly mix of elements that this particular world has. The Imperium's top-of-the-line technology now is all STC, which means it's Dark Age. Humanity is as good as it's always been, in terms of peak tech application. It just no longer has the culture, organisation or knowledge base to put that into widespread use.

There is absolutely NO evidence that suggests that Dark Age humanity was more advanced than anything the Eldar can field currently. With the possible exception of one, maybe two, Black Library novels, which is conflicting anyway because there are other sources that say Titans are post-Imperium creations.

>> No.19849901

>However, the Iron Men, as all creatures do, evolve and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other they set about conquering the galaxy. The Dark Age of Technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavours. Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and itt is at the end of this period that the great organisation know now as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded. During the Dark Age of Technology, the austere ancestors of the Imperium’s Navis Nobilite are born, and through their unique prowess, mankind forges through the stars. Weapons of great destruction cow the aggression of alien enemies, pushing back the frontiers of Mankind’s dominions.

Also read this http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/warhammer-40k-the-men-of-iron.201870/

>> No.19849908

what is this fucking prometheus.

>> No.19849950


>> No.19849955


>> No.19849978


Yes, all the stuff is cited. There are a lot of theories, but most of that stuff has direct citation from the fluff in there. Feel free to ignore the theory as stick to your own logic when reading it.

>> No.19849989

They had full AI titans in the Dark Age of technology. Specifically the Castagator class titan, which is both larger and more advanced than anything the Impirium can currently field.

>> No.19850035

TECHNICALLY, Salamanders have a gene mutation so that their skin STAYS pure black, even when off their homeworld. But yes, and non-Salamander in the same situation would turn black. But unlike the Salamanders, they would turn back to white when they left.

>"Okay high-school metalheads, what can we add to these badasses? We already have acid spit and their skin changes color."

>> No.19850064

Hey guys does the Warhammer Illuminati still count as cannon? Cause I always really liked their story.

>> No.19850088


Same with the Star Child.

>> No.19850096



*Power metal solo*

And then old 40k was born.

>> No.19850102

Point conceded on the Titans.
And vis-a-vis the Men of Stone, yeah, my conjecture that they were the term for the colonists that underwent stasis was just something that struck me as I was writing it, rather than an actually considered theory.

Though I'm still seeing nothing that suggests power in excess of the Eldar Empire from Dark Age humanity. Top-tier Imperium tech is Dark Age tech, as is all STC tech. There's nothing to suggest that there's tons more advanced technology from the Dark Age that isn't around anymore 'just because' or 'because older = better'.

>> No.19850154

No one is suggesting Eldar level tech, or even Necron level.

Just saying that the DAoT has tech that makes Imperium tech a joke. Especially the Iron Men.

Still want to see what happens when an Iron Men vault is opened by the Necron.

>> No.19850160

Are you kidding me? The DAoT is meant to be filled with any and all favorite sci-fi settings. From Dune to fucking Battletech, anything can be fit in this era. Humanity was in a super golden age, the Eldar were all wanking off having cocaine orgies. Humanity in the meantime was sending billions off to explore, the technology was increasing exponentially until the AI wars.
You sound like an eldar fan boi who cant stand that his space elves are inferior to man

>> No.19850164

On the other hand, you have to remember that the Imperium lacks a lot of what the DAoT had.

For example. Penicilin. They needed an STC for that. The Dark Eldar engaged in a long war with the Imperium for it. PENICILIN.

>> No.19850180

Isn't it the other way around?
The husband giving the wife a bloody nose?
Or is that some Chaos ritual?

>> No.19850196

The Imperium found an STC for making folded steel.

Yeah the shit Katanas are made from.

The shit that Western civilization found in 800BCE which was replaced with high grade steel years later.

>> No.19850212

I like to think Ghost in a Shell happened in this time.

>> No.19850215


And also that the Eldar were made by the Old Ones, got an astounding level of technology, and then pretty much just stayed there, whilst Humanity continued to grow and develop.

This, however, is exactly what I now see happening to the Tau, with the Imperium taking the position of the Old Eldar.

>> No.19850228


You're clearly never cheated on a Scottish girl.

>> No.19850264

I was more so implying a sort of "WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU DOING WITH SALLY FROM DECK 32,942 YOU ASSHOLE?" kind of situation. But either way.

>> No.19850297

If you're talking about the Panacea wars, you might want to check your greek. It's a cure all. Not just an antibiotic.

>> No.19850321

mad, or brave, not sure which, and this is coming from a Scot

>> No.19850335

Based on the descriptions given, I'd assume the Harrowing are straight up Lovecraftian monsters from another dimension. Something so repulsive because it warps reality and beyond our sense, but unlike Chaos as we know it because it's not a reflection of our material world and consciousness, but something completely foreign. Would explain why both high science and sorcery were needed to drive it back.

I wonder if they have any connection with whatever the Dark Eldar have been contacting (Albiet their faction is one I know little about. I am just aware they've been dealing with foreign entities that aren't Chaos related.

>> No.19850344

I want to run a game of DH or RT where the party goes through a time jump and lands in the DAoT cause lol warp magic.

>> No.19850345

I disagree, Eldars haven't had their schism yet, or lost their gods - I have no doubt they can hold up to the DAoT humanity, with their own lost technologies and magics.

Orks are, well, orks, mostly a frontier world menace that can snowball into something if not taken care of fast, but you could imagine gigantic hordes popping up from time to time from some uncharted world.

Humanity probably also suffers from internecine strife, rebellions...

>> No.19850346

Oh. Yeah. I read it wrong.

Still, I like the idea that the Imperium has star ships that move through hell to travel faster than light, but doesn't have access to penicilin.

>> No.19850372

Folded. Steel.

Fucking folded steel.

>> No.19850377

Never understood the draw of the eldar, basically elves... IN SPEESH who destroyed them selves and created a chaos god in the process.
Now they race around worlds trying to save their nearly extinct kind, killing everything in order to save a guardian who is going to die to a single bolter slug anyways.
I wanna play these dick heads.

>> No.19850395

How come imperial space marines are generally considered superior to their chaotic counterparts, even though CSM are older (more experience) and have the support of the dark gods?

>> No.19850397

The tech and weapons that have been bandied about in this thread are ridiculous, and entirely conjecture.
>self-aware monstrosities each capable of wiping out entire planets for breakfast - and the ships carry LOTS.
>Imagine the Culture crossed with Battletech
>I can't imagine the power fielded by DAoT warships
> there is a powerful as fuck Iron Man powering the ship, and that they used actual science, so their shields and armor would be way better.
>Baneblades as scout tanks (the crowd favourite)

And more and more of the same every single time the subject comes up here (or anywhere else, for that matter). From what we can actually see, the main advantages the Dark Age had over the current Imperium were (relative) peace, widespread education, an actual full knowledge base to build on (rather than corrupted, burned pieces to scrabble for), and the STC to implement it flexibly on a large scale. The STCs the modern Imperium uses are the same STCs that were spit out in the Dark Age, and half of those don't even work right (see: plasma weapons). There's nothing to suggest that the Imperium was magically full of culture-level supersoldiers wielding superweapons and flying around in ships that could spark off supernovas with a volley. Only fan conjecture. Which is fine, but please, let's at least stop pretending that it's canon.

>You sound like an eldar fan boi who cant stand that his space elves are inferior to man
The Eldar Empire I used as an example of relative power because they existed at the same time as Dark Age humanity, and we have actual documented sources on their capabilities on the time. Not in-depth ones, but more than we have on Dark Age mankind. They were the dominant empire in the galaxy at the time.

>> No.19850406

Steel foldeded a billion times by master japenes artisanz!

>> No.19850420


And the sad thing is, that's the truth.

>> No.19850422

Because most CSM aren't survivors from the Heresy, most are kids drafted from feral worlds who die in droves before actually doing anything useful.

>> No.19850436

I never understood why people like the Eldar either. In the 40k setting they are eclipsed by much more interesting races/fluff

>> No.19850446

Half of those are just mindless statements and half of those are fluff supported statements.

>Baneblades as scout tanks (the crowd favourite)

This is a /tg/ fanfict.

>> No.19850458

shittier equipment (ten millennia in the eye will do that)

lack of discipline

better individual fighters, but don't work nearly as well as a team in the way loyalists do.

>> No.19850467

CSM also know fear.

The Loyalist Marines know (or think?) that when they die, they're going to a glorious place with the Emperor.

The Chaos Marines KNOW for a FACT that when they die, they're going to be eaten by their god of choice (Or turn into a fury if they don't choose).

>> No.19850470

I know it's /tg/ fanfiction, that doesn't mean it doesn't crop up a dozen times in every thread where the Dark Age of Technology is mentioned.

>> No.19850502

I really like how the DAoT used baneblades as scouts and Titans as troops

>> No.19850527

Once again, this is a setting where humans had access to better than 40k level of tech and understood how it worked.

They fielded dozens of Titan Legions per world, had drones run by AI's and were fighting Orkz all the time, didn't have Warp shit much, and were about conquering the galaxy for humanity.

It's a HFY.

>> No.19850551

No no no, you need to wait until later on, or even the next time the subject comes up. Then you get in right at the start of the thread with it, and watch people rage on both sides and completely derail the thread. The key to trolling is that people think you're making legitimate statements and only *suspect* you might be trolling.

In conclusion, 2/10, need to work on timing.

>> No.19850577

I know I'm being pedantic here, but can I get a source on that? Everything except the AI drones, of course, we've been over the Iron Men already.

>> No.19850594

How did the primarch of the Impirial fists die abord a Despoiler class battleship during the first black crusade when the Despoilers were made in the 36th millennium?

>> No.19850603

time is crazy in the warp.
>future ship comes from fucking nowhere

>> No.19850624


Read all the fluff shit in this thing man.

>DAoT was humans and robots conquering galaxy
>Psykers didn't show up till Strife
>Navigators didn't show up till early DAoT
>Fighting Xenos

All in the first fluff post even.

>> No.19850672

I've read that. It says nothing about 'better than 40k level tech' (aside from AI, and we've been over that). Nothing about 'dozens of Titan Legions per world' (actually, it does state it, but doesn't provide any source). Those are the pertinent points.

>> No.19850693

>Screencap of the source material
>Doesn't cite it

>> No.19850729

Then by all means, please quote me the part of the source screencaps that explains that every world had dozens of titan legions. Every world, mind, not just forge worlds. Because I've read it, and I can't see shit.

And while you're there, if you can find anything that actually mentions tech better than current top-tier Imperium tech that isn't massively allegorical, wrapped in myth, or both, that would be nice.

>> No.19850753

I hold to a theory that orc tech is always a half step behind the best stuff currently available. Able to compete but really not up to scratch. All due to orcy WAAAGH! I see, I want mindset.

Thus orks have cars and guns and lazors and stuff. They are also capable of making big walky robots and spaceships.

Orcs have some sort of plate armour, bows, seige weapons.

Stick orcs in a setting with overly advanced technology and orcs will quickly grow to almost match up. Up to the point where they aren't instantky wiped out and so get to have a proper good scrap.

>> No.19850779


This is because most Ork stuff is made from looted parts. Give them better parts to loot, they'll make better stuff, Orkyfied.

>> No.19850780

This is exactly what orks are.

>> No.19850784

>They fielded dozens of Titan Legions per world
Shut up with that, no they didn't, most worlds didn't have any actual tanks, let alone multiple titan legions, and unlike your conjecture, it is outright stated that many STC technologies weren't used by most colonists simply because they had no use for them. Look in the rulebook it has a little section on STCs in the back.

>> No.19850785

>Orks suddenly arrive in a Culture setting
I like this. I like this a lot.

>> No.19850788

>AI Wars
It all makes sense now.

>> No.19850799

Some of you have learned well from me and a few others who really know their shit with 40k lore (I seldom post under this name),

I'm just going to remind you all of one major thing you probably didn't realise - hatred of psykers (witches), technology and aliens comes from the bottom up, not the top down. It can be traced directly backed to the start of the Age of Strife.

Aliens preyed on the now vulnerable human civilizations, so aliens became hated. Humans began to have their psychic awakening - resulting in many civilisations becoming completely lost to warp creatures. So they hated psykers.

The only advanced human civilisations to survive were the callous, ruthless ones that developed this culture. It was a form of natural selection - the nice civilsations all died out. It's why mary sue human civilisations don't really exist in 40k - oh, there are remnant dark age civilisations out there. Even in the canon.

It's just that for all the technology, their culture is remarkably similar to that of the Imperiums. So in summary, the xenophobic, backwards culture of the Imperium comes from its lowest common denominators and predates the Imperium. It's the predominant human culture, and the Emperor actively tried to reverse elements of it. It means most people don't need to be TOLD to hate mutants and witches and aliens - they already do.

>> No.19850800

Every world had at least 1 million titans and 3 billion space marines to protect them. They could time travel and had orks as pets.

>> No.19850823


>liens preyed on the now vulnerable human civilizations, so aliens became hated. Humans began to have their psychic awakening - resulting in many civilisations becoming completely lost to warp creatures. So they hated psykers.

This just isnt true though. Most pre age of strife planets ACCEPTED psykers. They encouraged them to use their powers.
These planets fell to chaos quickly once shit went down.

Also I'm pretty sure people around here are smart enough that I doubt you really contributed that much.

>> No.19850826


When was that made?

The top bits REALLY look like the antenna from the Reapers in Machines (old PC strategy game)

>> No.19850827

>there are remnant dark age civilisations out there.
Can you provide more info or links?

>> No.19850847

So they why aren't Pariahs loved and hailed as heroes? In such a universe where psykers are hated and destroy whole worlds, wouldn't something that can stop them be honored as a salvation?

>> No.19850856

See, this could have been a nice and informative post that inspired discussion on the cultural forces at work over the Imperium's history. But then you started it off with
>Some of you have learned well from me and a few others who really know their shit with 40k lore (I seldom post under this name)
And it all just collapsed before it even started. Cut the elitism, it has no place in an actual discussion. Being a condescending cockend harms your points rather than helps.

>> No.19850858


Because it's stated they're disturbing and unpleasant to even be near.

>> No.19850886


Nicely put. This dude has a good point. You could have just cut out that entire first line and not come across as an elitist douche.

>> No.19850904

"how did humans during DAoT navigated?" - Calmer warp, no need for all encompassing galactic war logistics. They could still make smaller jumps without the beacon, it is needed only for intra-galactic travel.

>> No.19850938

They navigated like the Tau. Except they had the Navigators, so their warp jumps could be longer and still be roughly stable, because you've got someone on board who can 'see' into the Warp and not go insane, which helps with steering. There's no actual beacon to make sure you're heading straight all the time though, so your jumps need to be short still - no hopping from one end of the galaxy to the other in one go.

This is supported by the initial travel being by stasis-barge, then when the warp was discovered, 'small journeys', and then the Navigators came around which 'allowed mankind to make longer journeys through the warp'. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

>> No.19850944


>> No.19850985

Point accepted.

Not that that source also claims that the Titan Legions are disbanded and no longer exist, so its status as still canon (along with the rest of the Imperial robots material) may be questionable.

>> No.19851010

>its status as still canon may be questionable

This holds for a lot of the 2nd and 1st edition fluff, let's be honest. Still, canon until explicitly retconned, so make of it what you will.

>> No.19851015

I read somewhere The Emperor had his own personal Titan.

>> No.19851019

The biggest thing the Imperium seems to have lost from the DaoT were machine tools(or that the mechanus is hoarding), the ability to build the foundations of industry. Centuries to build battleships, and only select planets even being able to build certain items at all hurts.

>> No.19851024

Actually the next paragraph goes through that.

He has 2 guarding the throne room and a few hundred custodes at all time.

>> No.19851026

Yeah its called Gurren Lagann

>> No.19851077


>Dat filename

>My sides

>> No.19851117

>that feel when you have come to believe in what the Emperor believed and worship him as the embodiment of anthropocentric-icty

>> No.19851126

I really want Someone Else to write a DAoT book or involves it in a major form as he is the only person who I can trust to get most of the canon straight and is a good enough writer.

>> No.19851136

any sci-fi book that doesnt take place more then 20k years in the future. there ya go

>> No.19851139

But I want Orkz in it.

>> No.19851141

It's good that you realise that you aren't, my friend. Jesus, the grammar nazis would have a field day.

>> No.19851152

It's a good feel, ain't it?

>> No.19851163

Anyone have that "IMPERIAL CREED FUCK YEAH" copypasta?

>> No.19851165

Yeah, you really do feel good.

>> No.19851169


You used too many pronouns and didn't have a declared noun in there to describe them.

>> No.19851184










>> No.19851193

Get a load of this faggot. Hes mad because people called him out for being a prick

>> No.19851201


>> No.19851228


Yes, check the 3rd edition Imperial Guard codex, it has a few fluff pieces about the Macharian Crusade through the Ghost Stars, they found one planet which was virtually untouched from the Dark Age which they couldn't defeat, and only beat by hurling an asteroid at them.

They were described as being so far beyond the Imperial technology that it was useless to fight them. This is why people have the impression of the Dark Age as being a time of insane technology and not comparable to contemporary Imperial tech.

There were a few other planets they found, including a giant machine that had an entire planet of humans hooked into it.

>> No.19851242

that moment when you realize that you don't have "watch out we got a badass over here.jpg" saved.

>Caps lock is NOT cruise control for cool.

>> No.19851255

I'm going to need to see a lot of sauce man.

My spaghetti will need it after reading that.

>> No.19851262


>> No.19851273


When you see people reiterate ideas and information you brought to the table over years and years, literally word for word let's see if you don't make cocky statements without proof-reading and censoring yourself.

I post under this moniker probably less than 1% of the time and I've started dozens of threads here full of screencaps of old sourcebooks and info. I've earned the right to be self congratulatory when I see it having a positive effect.

>> No.19851300

Yeah I have started plenty of threads and answered plenty of questions but you come across as "that guy".

Humanity Fuck Yeah

>> No.19851311

wow really? your so cool man. I wish we could be friends.

>> No.19851319

You spelt HFY wrong

>> No.19851323

your like the guy who points out everytime somebody uses the image he made.

really annoying.

>> No.19851334

Human Men Yiffing

>> No.19851348


I wish I had a scanner but it wouldn't do any good right now anyway, my books are all locked away in my attic.

I'll try and find some more information for you, it might have been from another book.

>> No.19851354

I remember this. /r/ing that copypasta it was so great.

>> No.19851360

That'd be more like an original chaos titan

>> No.19851396

I got this

>> No.19851416


>'that guy'

Call me what you want, the point I was trying to make is that I've been a silent and regular contributor here for years. You don't know how much of what you've read here has come from me and you never will, nor will you know in the future.

Anyway, this is shitting the thread up, it's supposed about discussing the more interesting ideas behind the 40k universe.

>> No.19851422

WELP, I'm a convert now

>> No.19851444

Everything you didn't post was me.

Yes, we are exactly two people here on this board. True story.

>> No.19851453


...that almost makes me want to start believing in the big E too.

>> No.19851477

You guys do know that there is a large number of Imperial Cultists, I think that's the name of them, on/tg/ right?

>> No.19851478

This is it. Thanks, sir.

>> No.19851488


Perhaps emulating the eloquent MR. RAGE didn't win you any brownie points either. Aping someone else, who has a much better reputation than you, is not a way to make friends.

>> No.19851491

I may not believe in "The Emperor" But I can believe in what he wants, where he wants to take us. I can get behind Humanity first and foremost. Its weird to think about but in the future when humanity does encounter aliens...people like us will be making sure everything is ok.

>> No.19851493


I was trying to say that I've never claimed credit for anything before and it wasn't really my intention to earlier, so apologies for the power trip.

I'll slip back into anonymity now.

>> No.19851503

Daily reminder that in 40k, humans have killed hundreds of species.

>> No.19851510


>> No.19851518

Fuck yeah!

>> No.19851520

hundreds, try billions. all that ecology that is destroyed when a forge world is born. thats just one planet, not to mention all the thousands of xenos wiped out.

>> No.19851523

Meant the sentient ones.

>> No.19851524



>Meanwhile, dem Terran Empire uniforms....

>> No.19851547


That was never an intention either. I get disproportionately annoyed when people get 40k fluff wrong and then teach it to other people wrong. Everyone's entitled to their own interpretation but when people teach others incorrect information it's annoying.

Autistic? Very, but what else is the internet for if not for well adjusted people to let off the parts of their personality they can't in day to day conversation.

Therein lies the etymology of the moniker. It wasn't rooted in mimicry. Honestly, I'm a pleasant helpful guy 364 days of the year.

Enough of this. I have Macharian fluff to find for that guy.

>> No.19851590

Remember that in 40k, we created our own species of men to work for us, and they served us well, until they grew into our children and faithful guardians, and they thought themselves better than than us.
They attacked our worlds, killed our family, families they were made to protect and guard in good faith in exchange for the gift of sentience.

But even out own children could not understand us and what we were capable of, so we do what we Humans do best, we destroyed our creations. We destroyed and sealed them away, melted their metal bodies, and destroyed their computer cores. We did this at great cost, but emerged on top as humans only do.

And it was this that proven to the Emperor that we Humans are worthy of ruling the Galaxy, for we are willing to destroy our own to defend ourselves and that we will die standing.

>> No.19851595

Nah, people like you and me will be the cork. The band aid. The kleenex. Disposable material to handle minor inconveniences.

The "making sure everything is ok" is done by people you'll never meet, those ordering the Exterminatus. Those disposing the band aid and the kleenex.

Welcome to reality, little man.

>> No.19851596

FOUND - remnant dark age human civilisation


>> No.19851632

>Thats really depressing.

>> No.19851634

That wouldn't be DAoT though.

That would be like M34-35ish

>> No.19851650


>Macharius still had to conquer it. He was held at bay for two years until the planet finally succumbed to a redirected comet.
>"Of its secrets, nothing now remains" were the last words of Macharius on the subject.

What a quote. Even the DAoT peoples were victims to the awesome powers of the galaxy. A large enough comet hitting the planet would have been as good as any exterminatus. Which is basically what Macharius did.

>> No.19851651

> I can see most everyone trying to fucking mate with an alien or sympathizing with them. This is where we as a species need to be careful.

They are FROM the DAoT. Like they never had any outside influence.

>> No.19851680

fucking greentext. I did not ask for you.

>> No.19851697

YES, THAT WAS MY FIRST RTS EVER! I never could finish the campaign, and now it doen't even work on my newer computers for some reason

>> No.19851698


There were other planets with considerable technology too. These were rare instances but instances nonetheless.

>> No.19851703

Wait...wait a civilization advanced as the DAoT couldnt deal with a simple threat like a comet?

>> No.19851726

>Adrantis Five was a human, hyper-technical planet which had been separated from the Imperium for over five thousand years
>separated from the Imperium for over five thousand years
That's not DAoT.

DAoT was 5k years before the Imperium. This would make that world 5k years after the creation of the Imperium. OR a solid 10k years between the last Imperial sighting and the DAoT.

>> No.19851746

I see! I wish I could read and not skim.

>> No.19851751


Now let me build up your hopes to dash them again.

I was recently involved in a project to redo the game open-source. The studios involved in the original are all disbanded - the legal elements were practically ignorable. The project fell apart after a great start due to lack of programmers. We had texturers, mappers, everything else. I was responsible for the sound and music.

Which isn't to say the project's completely dead, but that any progress has ground to a complete halt.

A shame. We wanted to redo what was one of the best strategies ever made.

>> No.19851768

Aww..... I always imagined the necron overlords sounding like the Warlords from that game

>> No.19851769

Unless you were talking about another world, this one is just an Imperial Forge World that went mad and refused to rejoin the Imperium.

>> No.19851773



>Simple threat


>> No.19851792

lazers, nukes, change trajectory while its still incoming so it glances instead of direct impact. shit son its 30fuckingthousand years in the goddamn future, I imagine that if we are racing today to solve this threat, that by then its fucking no biggie.

>> No.19851815

Now I would say that the fact that they are facing a crusade fleet, that they wouldn't control the system given the 2 year span that they were invading it.

So anything would probably be shot down.

>> No.19851827

I've archived this, why not head on over to suptg and upvote the shit out of it, thanks you brilliant bunch of theorists.

>> No.19851832

So its more of a majoras mask?
they drag the ball of ice and rock and just drop it from way up high? with acceleration of course.

>> No.19851846

Technically all humans are remnant from the DAoT, the reason we call this one a dark age remnant is the cultural independence and seemingly unbroken technology.

You're right though, perhaps a different name would be more appropriate. They were likely like many other worlds adopted into the Imperium - highly technological but that technology wasn't necessarily STC/Dark Age tech.

Think about it, The Age of Strife was a period of thousands of years, many Imperial planets fell and then recovered with indigenous technology, many never really fell at all, rather adapted to the changes of climate (psykers, aliens and iron men fucking everything up).

One reason for technology to decline could have been the warp storms and how they isolated million of worlds. It can be hard to develop technology when you lack resources or trade of them and ideas.


>> No.19851847

Even though it's not from the DaoT, here's the 2e IG codex fluff on Lord Solar, smiter of machines, lord of the comets.


>> No.19851856


Pre-cisely. The only thing large enough to push something like that off-course would be a large missile or some sort of explosive payload, which would have been shot down en-route. Any laser, no matter how powerful, would simply go straight through. A lasgun putting a 1cm square hole in a guy will seriously hurt him, a 1km radius hole in a 100km+ comet won't even slow it down. If anything, the explosive evaporation will speed it up, and crack it internally, causing it to hit like a cluster bomb.

>> No.19851865


They really didn't expand on that comet-killed planet at all.


>> No.19851892

this man is like a mini-emps. Truly he followed HFY

>> No.19851909



During the Great Crusade all kinds of weird and wonderful technology would have abounded. It's why I take issue with the apparent uniformity of the Imperial aesthetic - really it should be incredibly varied, in both the weapons, vehicles and general technology around. The vast majority of weapons would really be indigenous patterns, both STC derived* and completely natively developed.

*Older fluff maintains the following:

Your planet has to deal with the age of strife, and in doing so loses most of its STC technology base. Lots of it remains, mostly in analogue printouts and such rather than the original databases - over successive generations, these blueprints are modified and added to, and/or as damaged and lost. Hence a plethora of technology that while having a distant STC past is more or less unrecognisable. This technology was described as being the bulk of the 'STCs' the Mechanicus looks for, as in - those STC patterns that the AM bends over backwards and goes on massive wars to get scraps of is actually the continuously modified scraps that have very little to do with the original plans they derive from.

As older fluff has it, most Imperial 'STC' tech comes from sources like that. Plasma, whatever - you name it. It's why 'pure' STC patterns are INSANELY sought after by the Mechanicus.

As for that remnant planet - many words are only briefly in the Imperium before being cut off again. Who knows how long this planet was in the fold? It could have been a few years. It could have been before the Ecclesiarchy really took hold and this planet's time in the Imperium could predate the Imperial Cult. My point is that while it was part of the Imperium (which may have been for an extremely brief time) it may never have had it's DAoT culture really affected much at all.

In summary, being a DAoT remnant is not mutually exclusive with being in the fold of the Imperium.


>> No.19851926

>Technically all humans are remnant from the DAoT

thats like saying all humans are from Earth

>> No.19851969

Damn. What a tragedy.
I would have followed.

>> No.19851980

I wonder what the standard infantry weapon was for the DAoT?


>> No.19851990


The point is that most planets for whatever reason don't retain either the culture of science or the technological base from the DAoT, while this planet did.

Being in the Imperium has little to do with it, it's the culture and technology change the Age of Strife brought about that this world avoided that makes it a Dark Age remnant.

The Imperium in its early days was more progressive with technology and psykers than the people it conquered, so it would have no reason to stop this planet from pursuing scientific exploits. It was the slow infiltration of the average human into positions of power within the Imperium and the proliferation of their xeno/technophobic attitudes that eventually formed the imperial state culture, it wasn't always so..

>> No.19851998

So really he an Hero'd because he didnt want to be the general that turned back.

>> No.19852013

No, this was clearly a forge world as it was part of the Imperium at some point, but it split to go on for 5000 years of scientific progress.

It could have be founded during the Great Crusade for all we know, but there is no confirmable link for this world being around for the DAoT or even using STC.

>> No.19852026

Know what would be cool? Guns that fire deep space gamma rays. Cook all your cells at once.

>> No.19852031


A fittingly poetic end.

The Emperor had found his own Gengis Khan. Men like that die in glory. One way or another.

>> No.19852048

Then go through 30 mile of city melting buildings and killing everything in its path until it is all absorbed.

Gamma rays are terrible weapons because if you miss it keeps going for a long ass time.

>> No.19852070


Anyone who uses Gamma-Ray weapons thinks of it like a laser-pointer. Fire at a single target, it's gone. Anyone with a brain knows that over a single AU it's like a river dropped on your enemies. A river of hot, melting, painful, monstrous death.

>> No.19852072

I can just picture a recently sobered Lord Solar. Unshaven, Unwashed alone in his room surrounded by bottles of booze. His awards from the imperial academy, navy, terra hang all around him. He had given his life, his soul to the Emperors plan for humanity. Now his troops wanted to turn back, to return to constellations that were familiar. He knew that the only course would be to turn back, but there would be no going back for Lord Solar. Holding the stubb revolver he placed one round inside. Soon he would be with the saints and imperials who had the balls to follow God incarnate.

Three days later the rest of his generals proclaimed that Lord Solar had succumbed to jungle fever.

>> No.19852091


Part of the Imperium at some point does not equal 'clearly a forge world'.

Also as per those scans, worlds that hadn't seen the Imperium in 5000 years are not necessarily listed as the same as the hyper advanced ones, which are mentioned separately.

Finally, this area is the Halo Zone, the reason it's likely that these advanced planets were remnants from the Dark Age is that they would have been almost totally untouched by the troubles of the rest of the galaxy, hence a culture of science and technology rather than the xenophobic technophobic culture borne out of necessity in the rest of the galaxy.

Again, -if- the Imperium had they found them in this state, there would have been no reason for them to change anything. When the Imperium vanished, nothing would have changed anyway.

>> No.19852095

Well, I know that. But should the army USING the gamma guns also have armour that protects them from it... Well, then you have either a total murderfest, or something approaching interesting.

>> No.19852106


Something like this?


57 seconds in, start from there.

>> No.19852112

The Invisibles on 63-19 used guns that fired void shields and could be used to punch holes right through space marines.

Total Vector Control would also be cool.

>> No.19852114

fucking chills

>> No.19852118

The armor needed to protect from gamma rays is Lead and depleted Uranium.

It's really impractical, cause at a certain point you can use an RPG to just cut through the 3 meters of lead you have to block a guy fielding it.

>> No.19852167


You mean this?

>> No.19852198


Christ, the shock wave from that kind of explosion propagating through a solid lead sheet would liquify your bones. What a way to go.

>> No.19852228

> assaulted by the REAL false emperor
Makes me crack up every time.

>> No.19852258

Killed by Horus too.

>> No.19852297


>I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor.

>> No.19852355


> A great fleet of over 600 warships shortly afterwards rose up out of 63-19's atmosphere, the challenge made clear.


And to think, Abaddon couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.

>> No.19852620

Thats pretty good

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