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19686144 No.19686144 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So fellow Eldar players

How's 6th ed and the FAQ treating you and your army?

>> No.19686152
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19686152

>> No.19686160

>>19686152

Mary Sue

>> No.19686164

>>19686144
Wait, do the Eldar get powershovels now?

>> No.19686166

>>19686164
they always have

>> No.19686175
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19686175

>>19686160
No, THIS is Mary Sue.

Necrons are merely powerful.

>> No.19686193

My support platforms got a little more durable

Wraithlord can challenge powerfists to avoid getting mugged in a protracted combat

Debating taking a second farseer so I can abuse fortune/doom + divination/telepathy powers in one unit.

>> No.19686196

everyone says assault was weakened. but termies seem even stronger now that half the power weapons don't work against them.

>> No.19686207
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19686207

>>19686193
>mfw a necron lord issues a challenge with mindshackle scarabs

>> No.19686213

This isnt related to 6th ed but which craftworld has a high abundance of howling banshees?

>> No.19686216

>>19686196
>how many non-marine armies have 2+ save or termies

>> No.19686281
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19686281

>>19686207
>mfw fortuned Incubi with a 4+ invulnerable save
>also my face when doom and misfortune on the same target
>and then the Klaivex challenges an independent character
Yes, all my eggs are in one basket. One sexy, sexy basket.

The more I think about it, the more double-farseer seems to be the way to go.

>> No.19686315

>>19686144
FAQ nerfs our psychic abilities further. I was looking forward to using improved guide and fortune but it looks like they dont like eldar mixing codex powers with rulebook ones.
I say this is an eldar nerf because GK units get to keep their psychic powers and take codex ones, as specified in their FAQ. Eldar so OP, nerf Eldar buff GK.

>> No.19686344

>>19686213
Biel-tan maybe? They have the most number of Aspect warriors.

>> No.19686361

>>19686164

Power Shovel:
Strength +2, AP 1, Shuvel

>> No.19686441

>>19686152
Cannot one shot.

>> No.19686456

Which Battle Brother is better for Eldar? Dark Eldar or Tau?

>> No.19686486

>>19686213
Quite likely Iybraesil.
It's matriarchal, follows the path of Morai-heg, the crone goddess (and mother to the Banshees).

>> No.19686504

Okay, so I want to start an Iyanden army, but I can't afford Wraithguard for shit. What's a good, cheap base that would still be fluffy for the "EVERYONE'S DEAD" Craftworld that doesn't cost fucking 165 dollars a squad?

>> No.19686570

>>19686504
Buy some wraithguard and make your own molds.

>> No.19686615
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19686615

>>19686504
See those things labeled "Battle Drones", or "Ghost Warriors"?

Those are now your warriors.
Get Guardian heads, greenstuff over their faceplates to look more like the wraithguard/wraithlord style heads.

>> No.19686647

>GW site
>FAQ says "Tyranid 6th Ed V1"
>click
>FAQ reads "Tyranids"

>Tyranid
>Tyranids
GW hates you guys so much they don't even keep your naming consistent.

>> No.19686710
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19686710

>>19686144

> That Eldar in the background...

>> No.19689136
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19689136

Elfdar thread!

>>19686144
Thanks to lazy-ass FAQ writing Harlequins now have a 4+ cover save AND a spotting distance of 2D6x2 inches, which is pretty sweet.

Also, Singing Spears have survived the FAQ and still hit tanks at S9, thank the gods.

FAQ also fails to address the question of whether Warlocks can fire Destructor in Overwatch. Based on the wording I'm going to say yes. Triple-flame Storm Guardians go!

>> No.19689212

>>19689136
Unfortunately, lazy FAQ writing and the 6th ed Initiative rules mean that this is the third FAQ in a row which (Read As Written) doesn't let Banshees strike first when assaulting through difficult terrain. But then, with the power weapon nerf, were you really going to pick Banshees anyway?

>> No.19690161
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19690161

>>19689212
I don't know. I think GW is trying to make Banshees a more defensive unit, with the exarch Counter-attack power and all. But they still suck none the less. I hope that they'll be moved to troops in the 6th ed codex.

I heard that Jetbikes can go sanic fast now in 6th ed. 36" per turn I believe.

>> No.19690277

>>19690161
Yup, except the full move is 48" if you don't shoot or assault. Cover save for going that first drops to 4+, but if you go normal speed you get a 5+ save so it balances out. Jetbikes also get the free instahit in close combat, not that you'd charge them into people's faces anyway. In theory it's great for Jetseer Councils, but the rules say the free hit is resolved at the model's 'unmodified Strength', so it's only a S3 hit and not a Witchblade o'doom.

>> No.19690309

>>19690277
>for going that fast
To clarify, it used to be 3+.

>> No.19690327

>>19690277
does that mean they charge and hit first at S3 AP- and then attack at normal initiative with all assault their weapons, number of attacks, etc?

>> No.19690417

>>19690327
Yes. Same as jumppack troops. It's less scary because they're Elves, but it's still a decent little bonus.

>> No.19690514

>>19689136
Also from the GW school of lazy FAQ writing:

>in assaults, Swooping Hawks never require worse than a 4+ to hit vehicles without a WS
This for an edition in which every single unit can hit vehicles on 3+...

>> No.19690556
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19690556

I'm thinking of grabbing a Farseer and some jetbikes for psychic defense and quick-response anti-vehicle with the Singing Spears.

Here's what I'm thinking of taking:

Farseer on Jetbike 85
Singing Spear 3
Runes of Warding 15
Fortune 30
Warlock on Jetbike x2 90
Singing Spears x2 6
Guardian Jetbikes x3 66

Total comes to 295 points. It's meant for use in a 1750 list (which is what are gaming group will run given the stupid 2nd FOC at 2k points). Allied with Imperial Guard. It might be worth it to throw in Doom for 25 points, but I don't want to NOT cast Fortune seeing as this one unit will be a huge target given the Runes of Warding that are happening.

>> No.19690582

>>19686647
tyranid is an adjective
Tyranids are a noun
Like it would be Russian and Russians

>> No.19690632

So, anyone converted Banshees to carry axes yet?

>> No.19690666

>>19690632
>cutting up my metal banshees
fuck no

>> No.19690765

>>19690632
the power weapon on my banshees are quite thick but not sharp. I make them count as power mauls.

>> No.19692833

>>19690765
Oooooh, that's easier. Just make the swords super-blunt. Power Klubz!

>> No.19692879

Eldar FAQ failings:

>doesn't answer the things we actually need to know: can Destructor and Bladestorm be used in overwatch?
>Swooping Hawks with Intercept never need less than 4+ to hit tanks! Great! Oh wait, everyone hits them on 3+ anyway...
>Harlequins have been accidentally buffed
>Banshees STILL can't attack into cover

>> No.19692960

>>19692879
On the upside, Kharne now hits vehicles on a 2+.

>> No.19692984
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19692984

>>19686647
>Playing Witch Hunters
>White Dwarf Codex
>My Tyranid opponent bitches his army is unplayable.
FUCK YOU

>> No.19692994

I realize no one cares, but the "shovel" in the OP is actually a sword that happens to be drawn in front of a bit of broken wall held up by some space rebar.

>> No.19693015

>>19689136
No. Destructor = psychic shooting. Overwatch = normal shooting.

>> No.19693032

>>19693015
destructor is a normal shooting attack, just like the Chaos Demon "psychic shooting" attacks

Bladestorm.. I don't think will work in overwatch

>> No.19693039

>>19692879
I say yes to Bladestorm, no to destructor. Masks are a "set value" item so they go at I 10 when attacking into cover just because.

>> No.19693052

Hey, I took pictures of the appendix a few hours ago, but 4chan went down for me. Just checked back. Has anybody else posted it, or should I dump?

>> No.19693056

>>19692879
Now, I don't play Eldar, but i was under the impression that Howling Banshees had an ability that made them act as though they always had frag grenades, so cover was not a problem for them.

>> No.19693071

>>19693032
"used in the shooting phase instead of shooting a weapon"

Sounds pretty specific to me. No to destructor.

Bladestorm does not define when it can be used hence yes to Bladestorm on Overwatch.

>> No.19693079

>>19693071
actually, looking at the exact wording;

Destructior is worked out "as a normal shooting attack". Normal shooting attacks are fair game for overwatch, I think?

and Bladestorm doesn't have a requirement as to what phase it's used in. Only that it "adds an additional shot for that turn", so I imagine it would work as well

>> No.19693101

>>19693056
Masks make them go at I 10 on the first turn as a set value of 10 after other modifiers. Assaulting into cover reduces the attacker to 1 as modifier hence they go at I 10 on the first turn they charge into cover. Now if assaulting into cover was a set value it would be roll off.

>> No.19693115

>>19693079
do you make a psychic test?

if so then shut up and eat your pea

>> No.19693121

>>19692984
at least he gets to load up on psychic shenanigans.

>> No.19693123

>>19693079
A normal shooting attack used in the shooting phase instead of shooting a weapon. In the shooting phase.

I'm not overly concerned about it either way as my council is on the shelf right now. It would be good to know though.

>> No.19693140
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19693140

>>19693115
>do you make a psychic test?
maan, you should really look this stuff up on your own before trying to argue a point

Destructor (and all warlock powers) do not require psychic tests. For all intents and purposes (rules-wise) they are not psychic abilities at all.

>> No.19693160

>>19693140
Even the new FAQ refers to them as psychic powers even though you do not need Warp Charge to use them and they are always on.

>> No.19693166

>>19693140
>implying i want to read a elfdar codex.
that is why i asked the question in the first place. if you don't take a psychic test then i don't see why not.

if you did, then it is a psychic ability. if it is a template weapon then you can fire it in over watch. but you will only hit 1d3 hits. because it is a single weapon. doesn't matter how many you could get under the templates.

>> No.19693196

Just trying to keep 40k stuff in one thread, and I've only got a couple of questions the FAQ does answer but I find hard to believe; sorry that it's Chaos Marines instead of Eldar.

Are daemon weapons only AP3 now, unless they're working as axes? If they are axes, does the +1 stack with the +1 for Undivided daemon weapons?

Does Abbadon's Drach-whateverthefuck only count for AP3? Am I the only one who finds that borderline retarded?

Typhus - with toughness 5, 4 wounds, and a Poisoned force-axe - and Ahriman - with something like 9 psychic powers and mastery level 3 - are the only two HQs worth taking any more, aren't they?

>> No.19693197

>>19693039
>>19693056
>>19693101
Reading the rules as written, in both 5th and 6th ed Banshees drop to Initiative 1 when they attack into cover. That's obviously not what's intended, it's just a hangover from the 4th ed rules, but it IS annoying that they still haven't fixed such an obvious issue.

>> No.19693215

>>19693196
>Just trying to keep 40k stuff in one thread
1. Why?
2. There are a million 40k threads open anyway

>> No.19693238

>>19693196
no and deal with it
why not keep all the shitty quest threads in one thread.

oh wait that makes no sense as well, go fuck yourself pal.

>> No.19693243
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19693243

>> No.19693262

>>19693243
Dammit, and those shooting attacks are used in the psyker's shooting phase. Oh well...

>> No.19693278

New sniper rules make Rangers better. Able to allocate wounds on a 6. Hide your independent characters!

>> No.19693306
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19693306

I guess you could apply this same logic to masks versus cover?

>> No.19693320
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19693320

>> No.19693332

>>19693278
even with that, a IC can just roll a 2+ and give the wound to some peon.

unless it says you can't take look out sir

>> No.19693349

>>19693306
>>19693320
Can't find the rulebook page about 'set value modifiers'. It does however say charging through difficult terrain sets initiative to 1 'regardless of other Initiative modifiers', so I'm pretty sure Banshees still go last if you play Read As Written. But then, that's a bad way to play.

>> No.19693361 [DELETED] 
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19693361

I've been out of the 40k loop since early 4th edition due to college and shit, and I'm just now getting back into it due to the big Dawn of War sale on steam.

I've heard they're now in 6th edition, and also that the changes made have fucked over da boyz in a major way. Can someone explain this to me in brief? All I remember really changing from 3rd to 4th was line of sight rules, it seems odd to me that they would make such large changes as to inconvenience an entire army.

>> No.19693365

>>19693332
Oh. Then... what's the point of the Sniper rule?

>> No.19693372

>>19693349
I am implying it would probably be a roll off. So masks are fifty fifty charging into cover.

>> No.19693375

>>19693332
>>19693365

Look out Sir is a 4+

>> No.19693379

>>19693365
take out faggots with special weapons. oh that is a nice melta gun you have there, shame something happened to it.

>> No.19693385

>>19693375
not for IC, characters get a 4+ but IC get 2+

>> No.19693387

>>19693372
Again, that doesn't work strictly Read As Written, because the assaulting through difficult terrain Therefore you ignore the Banshee Masks.

>> No.19693405

>>19693387
Uh, I meant to say
>assaulting through difficult terrain rules say 'regardless of other modifiers'

>> No.19693447

While we're talking confusing things that the FAQ totally fails to resolve... what IS the mastery level of a Farseer with Spirit Stones? It's 2, right?

>> No.19693485

>>19693306
>effected by another set value modifier
>effected
lrn2spell, Games Workshop.

>> No.19693496

Where are the faqs, anyways?

I need to figure out how Typhus works with the new Psyker rules and if he auto-succeeds ANY power he has.

>> No.19693510

>>19693496

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=340001
9&multiPageMode=true&start=2

>> No.19693539

>>19693447

Yes it is. Absolutely.

>> No.19693546

The FAQs seem very rushed, I wouldn't be surprised if version 1.1 isn't out some time in next week or two

>> No.19693568

>>19693546
well the FAQ is probably just a basic FAQ, they will probably update them again later on as the months go by.

mainly cause the public is retarded and they need to spell shit out clearly for them. like the retard here wanting to shoot his psychic attack as an overwatch.

>> No.19693574

>>19693510
Wait, do Codex: CSM powers -cost- anything in the way of Warp Charge?

Because now Typhus is actaully looking good, despite being I1(?).

>> No.19693579

I just found out today that blast weapons and barrage weapons are a lot less accurate now, as scoring a hit on a blast weapon seems to do nothing and getting a hit on a barrage weapon makes you minus your BS level from the scatter dice.

>> No.19693592

>>19686144
>How's 6th ed and the FAQ treating you and your army?

My personal army or the codex my army comes from? The codex isn't that different, but some of the nerfs have changed the balance in my own army. So the potential is the same, it's just the composition that I've used that has changed, and I would need to spend a lot more money to retify that.

But it was decided by the community that my codex is OP and I have no place bitching about it, so I guess I can't.

>>19692879
>Hawks

Doesn't that merely mean same as with like wounding on a 4+. It's 4+ or better, depending on which comes first. Like if you had a S4 attack that wounds on 4+ vs. a T3 target, then you'd wound them on a 3+ because it's better.

So shouldn't that be that Hawks will never roll worse than 4+ vs. vehicles, so 3+ and 2+ are still perfectly fine results to roll on?

>>19686216
>how many non-marine armies are there

>> No.19693593
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19693593

I haven't been keeping up todate with the leaked rules and the FAQ, but as one eldar player to another I have a few questions:
I've seen the power weapon rules, isn't it the death blow to Banshees, aka our anti armor specialists?
The Grey Knights get some sort of rule "brotherhood of somethinsomething as >>19686315 said, how come our Seer Council aren't premitted this rule? it seems to shout to the high heavens that they should.
Since we can't get cheap transports, like at all, how horrible are the new transport rules? I've heard something about "only 6' disembarkment" Thats gonna bites really REALLY badly if it's true when most of our guns are what? 12-18'?
And finally, please tell me that holo-fields have gotten a tweak to fit the new rule and aren't just a 40 point waste now.
Thank you in advance.

>> No.19693634

Bump for the Craftworld.

>> No.19693667

so if i take banshee's with axes do their masks negate unwieldy or not? this will determine their place in my army

>> No.19693725

>>19693593

Holofields suck, but you'll spare points.

Skimmers get 5+ cover save if they move at all, and can fire 2 weapons at full BS after going 12''.

Banshees suck and weren't anti-armor specialists in 5th, fire dragons were better vs termies than an equivalent number of charging banshees and are still.

Harlies if you must take CC units in your elite slot.

Warlocks in or out of councils don't need tests to use their powers so why would they need brotherhood of psykers?

>> No.19693739

All I gotta say is... Eldar army with Dark Eldar allied detachment.

Jetbike Farseer Council w/ 4 Warlocks.
2 units of Pathfinders.
3 10x Harlequin Troupes w/ Shadowseer + Kisses.

Allies
Haemonculus riding on Venom with Liquifier gun + WWP
token Wrack unit on Venom
1 similarly decked out Harlequin troop.

All Harlequins are in reserves, possibly the jetbikes too. Haemonculus deploys the fun box and THE CIRCUS COMES TO TOWN!

>> No.19693748

>>19693725
>why would they need brotherhood of psykers?
I might be wrong about this, but as far as I know it generates a mastery level, meaning a psychic power, giving some how of the Eldar race's psychic might.

>> No.19693754

>>19693739
no fusion pistols?

>> No.19693757

>>19693754
With Dark Eldar as an allied detachment... yeah. There's plenty of room for fusion pistols on the shadowseers, now that I think about it.

>> No.19693767

>>19693748
Seer Councils have always used just warlock powers, which don't need tests. That's better than brotherhood of psyker types like GK's that need a psychic test - and still are limited to the default powers of their codex despite having a "mastery level" of 1.

>> No.19693771

>>19693748
Okay, let's say they did get Brotherhood of Psykers...


What the fuck would they do with the warp charge?
Their powers don't use warp charge, because they're always on.
They could use the charge to use force weapons I suppose, if they had any, which they don't.

>> No.19693775

>>19693739
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420311a_Dark_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

sorry mate allied units cannot use the DE webway portal.

>> No.19693783

>>19693775
Motherfucking shit. Okay. Do Regular Eldar get a webway portal option?

>> No.19693792

>>19693783
No, although I can only hope they will in future, as Corsairs get them as well, and it fits.
It would also make the perfect piece of Autarch equipment.

>> No.19693796

Also remember that Farseers with Spirit Stones are Mastery Level 2 psykers.
Rulebook page 66:
>In older codexes, Mastery Level may be written out longhand in the form of a special rule that allows the psyker to use more than one psychic power each turn - the number of powers that can be used each turn is their mastery level.

>> No.19693801

>>19693783
Not in their current 'dex.

>> No.19693805

>>19693792
Oh well, back to making it a Dark Eldar list. Allied Harlequins deploy normally. Chop down the Pathfinder list for a second Wrack Venom.

>> No.19693809

>>19693593
>holofields
Nope. They won't be worth anything until the next Codex, sorry. Really, what they should do is increase the Jink save.
>banshees
Yes, it's probably a death blow, but it's not like Banshees were good in 5th either. Harlequins are probably a better bet. Or if you really want to kill termis just shoot them with Fire Dragons like you do everything else.
>transports
Can only disembark if it moved 6" or less, BUT you can now move 6" after disembarking. So effective range is a little less, but it's not crippling. Unlike the total lack of assault vehicles, of course...

>>19693592
>But it was decided by the community that my codex is OP and I have no place bitching about it
Know how I know you're a non-Eldar player posting in an Eldar thread?
>So shouldn't that be that Hawks will never roll worse than 4+ vs. vehicles, so 3+ and 2+ are still perfectly fine results to roll on?
Yes. But the point is that the power is completely useless because you would NEVER get worse than 3+ anyway. I'd be less confusing just to say 'this power doesn't exist'.

>>19693667
Depends on that weird thing about 'set value modifiers', which is a phrase that doesn't appear in the rulebook index. Hurrah! Also, I appreciate your creativity in trying to make Banshees playable.

>> No.19693812
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19693812

>>19692879
Destructor can be used as a Overwatch just not a normal snap shot you just get a D3 hits instead of actually placing the template.. its very clear in the Handbook.

Harlequins buffed?

Banshees are reducced down to Initiative 1...then their masks take effect and make them Initiative 10... always have been this way..always will for the next 2 years until they get a codex

>> No.19693817

>>19693812
Don't think so... we've discussed it up the thread. Both the codex AND the 6th ed rulebook on psychic powers specify that they are used 'in the shooting phase'.

>> No.19693838

>>19693775
Thats bull on so many levels.

>> No.19693847
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19693847

>>19693817
And so is all non close combat weapons! Destructor is not a Psychic power it is a WARLOCK POWER page 28 Eldar codex! read and learn

>> No.19693850

>>19693754
>fusion pistols
Actually a good choice now, I think. Before fleet got nerfed they weren't a must-take, because you'd often spend the shooting phase RUNNING INTO YOUR OPPONENT'S FACE. But now you can't run and then charge, having a fusion pistol handy makes more sense. You still have to get mighty close, of course.

>> No.19693854

>>19692879
How are the clowns buffed?
I'm curious as I have a full unit of them that have yet to see usefullness in battle.

>> No.19693865

Okay, terrible idea.

Take Dark Eldar as Eldar allies, to represent a more comprehensive Harlequin force.

Haemonculus with Vexator Mask as Grand Avatar... or as a Solitaire.
Harlequins as Elites.
Wyches as Mimes.
Everything in Venoms.

>> No.19693884

>>19693847
No U: >>19693243

>>19693854
See >>19689136. Doing it might make you a jerk, though, since they clearly didn't intend it to happen. On the other hand, though, the Deldar FAQ doesn't mention Harlequins at all. So... yeah, GW are just kind of bad at this stuff.

>> No.19693895
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19693895

>>19693847
Precisely. Warlocks are mastery level zero too, which means they couldn't even cast any truly psychic powers, even if they DID have them.

>> No.19693903

>>19693865
But that's lame and totally not the point. With the new rules you can ACTUALLY TAKE 40 CLOWNS.

In this case I'd paint them black and white so I can breeze through 40 of the fuckers. But.. mimes rock.

>> No.19693909

Fuegan got buffed.

His axe gives +1 to S and lets him attack like a monstrous creature according to its rules. Monstrous creatures' core rules have Smash.

This means Fuegan gets to stay AP2 in close combat, and can do two S10 smash attacks instead of his normal attacks.

>> No.19693917

>>19693903
Well yeah, so I have 40 clowns as my elites. But then I also have some counts-as mimes, with daemonic masks to represent their role in the great dance.
I have a leader for them, with a mask that shows the loved ones of those who dare challenge him, which fits in well with the masks of other harlequins.
And Venoms!

>> No.19693929
File: 109 KB, 447x660, 1324471999037.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19693929

>>19693817
>>19693884
Warlock powers page 28
Destructor: The warlock focuses his anger and hatred and unleashes it at the enemy in a roiling blast of raw psychic power. Destructor is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. It is worked out like a normal shooting attack with the following profile.

So Normal Shooting attack (yes only in the shooting phase..Like normal shooting attacks)- But also (Normal shootig attacks can be made as snapfire shots resolved as BS1 for OVERWATCH)
Therefore...it can and Will be used ...and Harlequins did not get a boost, anyone doing that will be kicked from hobby stores/ tournaments and have no friends.

>> No.19693945

>>19693917
But that's stupid. 40 clowns. 40 goddamn eldar clowns. Painted as mimes. With rending weapons and Shrouded+Stealth. The whole point of this is to just have fun with 40 fucking clowns! 30 of them screaming right out of the fun portal.

You're just neckbearding things by taking OTHER stuff.

>> No.19693960

>>19693929
That's how I interpreted it. It doesn't matter if it's classified as a psychic shooting attack if it doesn't actually get "cast" like one. It's just like daemon "powers" that are just shooting attacks. Which interestingly leads to pavane being used in overwatch...

>> No.19693976

>>19689136
what does it matter with the Singing spear being S9?

the Witchblades (which Singing spears are not..they wound on a 2+ like Witch blades..but are not) have Armourbane which is 2d6 armour pen..its the same as being strength 9. Both have a max of 15

>> No.19694005

>>19693976
...No, no it's not. Farseers and Warlocks are STR 3. STR 3 + 2d6 is... a 10 on average rolls. Spears are STR 9 + 1d6. You're only matching average rolls on a Witchblade if you roll a god damn 1.

>> No.19694075

>>19694005
you forget you idiot, witch blade is one handed, while the spear is two handed. you have a 34% chance of rolling a seven, and a 50% chance of rolling a 4.. so this is 10 for a witchblade and a 13 for a spear. sounds good right?

but wait were not done...time to learn math
58.34 percent of the time you will roll 7+ on 2d6..adding your 3 making a 10 but the spear still hits a 10+ 100% of the time
but dont forget a Witchblade weilder will always get 2 attacks while a spear user will get 1..this is 100% more attacks!

So when rolling to hit spear hit 50% of the time with 1 attack, the witchblade hits 50% of the time with two attacks. Then compounding the further chances of actually wrecking a vehicle and or other models as necessary.

>> No.19694093

>>19694075
Spears are far more consistent. The few hits you do get in have a much higher chance of doing anything. On average rolls you're hitting armor 13, whereas with witchblades you're lucky to go above 10, more attacks or not.

Idiot.

>> No.19694112

>>19694093
no look at the math..not lucky probable to go above 10. and 100% more attacks increases the probability to higher results than the spear can possibly expect. Learn 2 Maths!

>> No.19694124

>>19693945
But Mimes are a particular TYPE of Harlequin. They play daemons and lesser Yngir in the dances.
Painting up 40 harlequins as mimes makes no sense.

(And yeah, it's a bit silly, but I miss the old harlequin stuff).

>> No.19694132

>>19694075
>says 2D6+3 'is the same as' D6+9
>calls someone else an idiot
Hahaha oh wow. You know, just because anonymity ALLOWS you to be a complete jerk, it doesn't mean you HAVE to be.

Plus, you know, you can throw the Spear, at maximum charge range, with 3+ to hit. So there's your extra attack if you want one.

>> No.19694146

>>19694112
>>19694093
You guys are going to actually have to do the maths if you want to settle this. Right now the only safe conclusion is that this 'Springheel Jack' tripfriend can't into social interaction.

>> No.19694162

>>19694124
This. It always disappoints me when I see people paint their Harlequins with some kind of strict colour schemes. Each of them is playing a different character, so should be distinctive from those around it.

>> No.19694185

Someone might have answered this already, in which case pay me no heed.
But what are the buff to harliquins theres been talked of?

>> No.19694223

>>19694146
I'm actually going to attempt this despite not being able to into maths, and then wait to be laughed at by people who can.

Vs. AV10, assuming the vehicle's moved so it's 3+ to hit...

>Singing Spear has two-thirds chance of a hit, 100% chance of glance or penetration
>Witchblade has eight-ninths chance of a hit, 58.34% chance of glance or penetration
So seems to me that the Spear has a 66% chance, and the Witchblade only has about 52%. And that has to get worse for higher vehicle armour... right? Or am I way wrong here?

>>19694185
Just look up the thread. It's just a dirty trick made possible by awful FAQ writing.

>> No.19694239
File: 227 KB, 480x640, 1332364292566.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694239

>play IG and vanilla mehreens
>friend plays CSM, daemons, eldar and SoB
>whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, bitching and so on and so forth

>> No.19694240

>>19694223
On reflection, I'm clearly wrong as the possibility for two hits from the Witchblade must affect it... somehow.

>> No.19694275

>>19694239
Alex?

>> No.19694287

>>19694275
Yes

>> No.19694302
File: 28 KB, 202x204, 1330463326307.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694302

>>19694287
I knew it.

>> No.19694308

So Eldar in 6th edition:
Vehicles are now somehow worse than they used to be. How is that even possible?
Banshees got raped.
Scorpions are still sorta bad.
Wraithguard are total shit thanks to the retarded random charge, they will now never get to shoot.
Clowns are marginally better.
Warlocks and Farseers are less usable.
Guardians still suck.
Dire avengers are hurt by charges as well
Jetbikes are faster. Still crap.
Avatar is better against vehicles, also potentially faster.
Wraithlords are no longer terribly allergic to hidden power fist, crouching sergeant.
Reapers are better with the reduced cover save. Still not good.
Falcons are shit, fire prisms are expensive wrecks.

Nope, I'm staying in 5th until someone writes a new codex.

>> No.19694327

>>19694239
>play IG and vanilla mehreens
>friend plays CSM, daemons, eldar and SoB

>Play IG against CSM, daemons, elder SoB.
>Complain.
You sir, are scum.

>> No.19694337

>>19694308
>crouching sergeant, hidden power fist.
I can't help but giggle

>> No.19694341

>>19694327
Reading comprehension? What's that?

>> No.19694378
File: 27 KB, 814x381, stupidargument.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694378

Did the simple maths on singing spears and witchblades vs av. At av 11 and over, SS is going to average more glance/pens than 2 witchblade attacks. At 2 SS attacks vs 3 WB attacks, SS is lightyears ahead.

>>19694308
What was the change to wraithguard?

>> No.19694398

>>19694378
>>What was the change to wraithguard?
Wraithguard have 12" guns. And they are slow. And they can't take a transport if you have enough to have actual killing power. Wraithguard used to have at least one turn of shooting until a single terminator turned them in to mush. Now with the hurpadurp random charges most units can completely ignore the shooting from the most powerful guns in sub-apocalypse infantry weapons. So goodbye wraithwall.

>> No.19694406
File: 77 KB, 620x900, the_eldar_we_will_make_it_ours_by_sokil_su-d4lzw32.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694406

>>19694308
your the reason people talk crap about Eldar. Yes we havea almost 7 year old 'dex.. but let me explain peacefully how these are good changes.

1. Vehicles are not worse..I dont know how you would think that. wit the vehicle upgrades that Eldar can take you can take a 3 on the damage table to a 1-2..so only a 4-6 affect you. which 4 is random so your good guns might not go. not to mention the expensive but useful holofields.

2-3. Banshees did not get raped... everyone across the spectrum lost 1..1..only 1 type of armor they can take out. If you sent Banshees against Terminators in 5th you most likely died anyway as in 5th any terminator worth their salt had a storm shield.
Scorpions have their place, its against light armour infantry..with the heavy 3+ armour of scorpions and high yield attacks you mow thru weak units with little problems ...same as ever.

4. Wraith guard have always had trouble shooting. and its no different than 5th edition.. if you move the wraithguard into 12" on your turn and shoot, the enemy moves 6" in move and assults 6"..the only difference is in your tactics. give em a warlock with enhance and give the entire unit I 5 WS 5 S5 T6 ..cmon..cmon...expensive..yes..but shitty? no
5.I agree with this one...id prefere if Veil of tears didnt change ..but whateves

>> No.19694408

>>19694378
>random charge
Basically, he's say that their short range means that they will always be charged before they can shoot. In other words, he has no idea how to play.

>> No.19694411
File: 102 KB, 620x439, Eldar_Craftworld_at_war_by_arhicks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694411

>>19694406
6.not really, they only take a hit due to deny the witch rule which is 16% of the time, and dont think its gonna work on destructor.
7.Guardians are overpriced good units. but TOO overpriced.
8.Nope Direavengers are not hurt by charges, learn to use your units in concert and youll understand that direavengers with defend and a shimmershield are tarpit after they bladestorm..they gain a benifit from the charge range..on average a 7 is rolled.. they tripple tap and assault also with defend taking away a attack from the defending unit.
9.12" move then either a 2-12" assault move or a 36" move in addition to the 12" move for turbo boost for a total of 48" in a turn. still expensive yes..still crap? no.
10.Avatar is better...no downside. he gets ap2 in addition to his extra attack for being a MC and he can exchange half of his attacks for S10 attacks...cmon. hes awesome! he also causes fear!
11.Wraithlords ..i never charged em into units..that is dumb. never let a unit get close enough to charge them..if it ever happened then it wasn't considered a weakness of the model but of the stratagem.
12.Reapers are still too expensive yes.. but they have thier place and in the 6th find less 3+ armies taking cover, so therefore they kill more.
13.Falcons are amazing, you sir..oohh you sir...3 S 6 and 3 S8 shots a turn for 155 pts on a 12/12/10 fast skimmer? which can move 12" and then 18" for a total of 30" without star engines 42" with star engines for 170pts and 3 hull points and can carry 6 models! how is this bad?!
14.Fireprisms!..115 pt Las cannon at 60" on a model that can move 12" over all obstacles and intervening models..yeah.. what a shit model.

you sir ..please go play Space marines and join the thousands of terrible players of spacemarines who cry about how "spacemarines should be able to defeat anyone..it says so in their fluff!"

>> No.19694425

>>19694398
Wraithguard are still crap, but this is rediculous. Overall, the random charges mean you move 1" more, and there's reasonable odds of moving less than you could under 6th. And you get a round of Overwatch fire whenever the enemy tries to charge. So if an opponent tries to charge as soon as he gets within 9" or so, hoping for a lucky roll, you get a free round of shooting at BS1 and he's unlikely to make the charge. Then you shoot him again.

The panic over the potential longer charge range open to assault units is silly, considering that Overwatch means unless the assaulting unit is as tough as all hell, you won't want to try making assault moves as soon as you hit the 12" maximum mark.

>> No.19694449

>>19694406
>Banshees did not get raped..

The changes to vehicle disembarkation mean they're going to be extremely hard to use. You can't assault if you got out a vehicle. It doesn't matter whether it moved or not - if you disembark, you can't charge. So the Banshees are going to have to jump out of their Serpent and hang around for a turn making themselves vulnerable. Even with a Fortuneseer babysitting them, they're going to be a huge target and probably aren't going to live very long.

If I want an Eldar assault unit, under 6th I'm more likely to go for Striking Scorpions, and infiltrate them onto an objective that can be reinforced by Serpent-mounted units on turn 1. Possibly Harlequins, as so long as they stick to cover, they'll have a 2+ cover save as they advance down the field.

>> No.19694488

>>19694449
Scorpions were already better across the board in 5e. The only thing Banshees were slightly better at was charging Doomed Marines.

>> No.19694491

>>19694449
Every unit does not need to hide in a Wave serpent. It is not Banshees that got nerfed it is anyone in a non assault vehicle. I rarely keep Banshees in a Vehicle. they have sv4+ massed fire can do it if the unit is moving in un supported but if your doing that then your not a very tactically minded person who should use Eldar the way they are supposed to be used, in a concert.

Ive run footdar in 4th, and 5th and recently went 5-0 at a tournament against Spacewolves meta list. Not sure how everyone plays across the globe but obviously some play inferior to others.

>> No.19694523

>>19694491
>It is not Banshees that got nerfed it is anyone in a non assault vehicle
Great! Now try listing the armies that have no assault vehicles...

By the way, have you run the maths on Singing Spears vs. Witchblades yet? Or are you happy just calling someone an idiot and not following through on your arrogance?

>> No.19694530

>>19694406
>>19694411
Also, for the hell of it, going through your points;
1. the vehicles as a whole aren't worse, but Holofields really aren't too worth their points now. Hull Point loss is going to be what kills vehicles in 6th, not Explodes! results on the damage chart, and Holofields don't do anything to stop Hull Points being lost.

2-3. Mentioned this.

4. Yes, Wraithguard are crap. They're too expensive, too slow, too vulnerable to being bogged down by swarming assault units that don't really care about Overwatch fire.

5. Yea, bit of a boost to Harlies, especially as Rending is one of the few AP2 things around now.

6. I'd agree there. Deny the Witch doesn't matter much, as Guide and Fortune don't target enemy units. The odd Doom being canceled is a bit of a pain though.

7. 12" range, mediocre BS, no close combat ability. Even led by a Warlock, they're just crap. Storm Guardians have some use for the flamers, but that's about it.

8. Dire Avengers look fine to me as well.

>> No.19694531
File: 163 KB, 500x692, tumblr_leyw168Ix91qfuvw9o1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694531

>>19694488
I disagree a bit here. While doomed marines (or other decently armored eliteish units) were your primary target with Banshees, they were also great at taking out units that relied on a high initiative in close combat.

>> No.19694535

>>19694530
9. Jetbikes were pretty cheap before, IMO, and they got better.

10. Yup, the Avatar is better, but he's still one less Farseer in the army so he's not going to see play.

11. Another unit that got buffed. They're mediocre fire support, and decent assault tarpits, but too damn slow and need babysitting by a Warlock/Seer.

12. I'm not sure on this one. I play Altansar, so a reason to take Reapers would be lovely. Need to give them a go under 6th before deciding.

13. Falcons are not amazing. They put out a lot of firepower, but BS3 puts a limit on what they can do. Fortune helps, but then we're getting into the issue of the Farseer Tax. Fire Prisms are crippled by a single Weapon Destroyed roll, and only generate a single shot each turn that's too likely to miss or be saved by cover to create reliable results.

I don't think Eldar are unusable in 6th, but sticking your fingers in your ears and claiming everything is completely fine is a tad delusional.

>> No.19694539

>>19694531
Of which there weren't many, and some (like Wyches) were still better dealt with using Scorpions or a ranged unit.

>> No.19694542

>>19694531
This is true. Banshees scare the hell out of me when I'm running Dark Eldar - they're one of the few units that can flatten Incubi in a heartbeat.

>> No.19694548

>>19694542
Is it like 3e where you either got lucky or massacred with Banshees on Incubi or are they somewhat reliable?

>> No.19694553

>>19694535
>the Farseer Tax
And the fact that quite a few non-Eldar armies will end up taking their own Wardingseer which will shut down yours. Grrr...

>> No.19694555

>>19694535
>Fortune helps

Guide, rather. Herpdederp.

Essentially, there are lots of Eldar units which are okay, or even good, at doing their jobs...so long as there's a Farseer helping them. Average BS? Guide. Limited survivability? Fortune. Not quite enough firepower? Doom. The problem is that *without* these buffs, the units in question can't quite do their jobs well enough.

Banshees are a good example of this. St3 power weapons are good, but not amazing. 4+ armour saves are decent, but not exceptional. A Doom/Fortuneseer solves both these problems...but this only makes the Banshees able to do their job. It doesn't make them exceptional, it just makes them usable. This is the problem with the Eldar codex - the Farseer Tax. Having to drop points into an attached character just to make certain units work.

>> No.19694562

>>19694406
>>1. Vehicles are not worse
Yes they are. Glancing everything to death is now ridiculously easy and holofields do nothing to stop that.
>>2-3. Banshees did not get raped...
Their transports are worse now, and their masks apparently only work half the time.
>>Scorpions
Still sort of bad. They should have had stealth to begin with. And fleet, Incubi got theirs back.
>>4. Wraith guard yadda yadda
OR a unit they could not shoot because there was never a chance to get within range charges and munches them.
>>6.not really
Yes, witchblades are now worse. I said they are "less" usable. Not bad.
>>7.Guardians are overpriced good units. but TOO overpriced.
They were never good. If you think this you should have your brain checked, you might a tumour.
>>8. Direavengers
Eh, I guess you're right about those.
>>9.Eldar mopeds
Still a fucking guardian, they suck, period. They are a fast objective grabber that costs an incredible abount of points, compare to, say, tomb blades and weep.
>>10.Avatar is better...no downside. he gets ap2 in addition to his extra attack for being a MC and he can exchange half of his attacks for S10 attacks...cmon. hes awesome! he also causes fear!
As I said, better than before.

>> No.19694567
File: 40 KB, 600x804, dark_eldar__wych_with_hydra_gauntlets_2_by_beckjann-d4rdwxa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694567

>>19694539
Wyches are a separate can of worms entirely, and throwing banshees at them is a questionable move for sure. I'd much rather fling them at incubi, being a unit that both relies on 3+ armor and a high initiative to function.

>> No.19694580

>>19694411
>>11.Wraithlords
Are WS4 S10 monsters. They should be able to deal with a pesky marine squad that comes poking. Now they can. They aren't just gun platforms.
>>12.Reapers are still too expensive yes.. but they have thier place and in the 6th find less 3+ armies taking cover, so therefore they kill more.
So we agree?
>>13.Falcons garbage talk
Glancing hits will be your undoing. And it's not like the afalcon ever hit anything with that BS3. All it was good for was safe fire dragon delivery, which doesn't work now.
>>14.Fireprisms
Fire magnet that can't take fire, what a great unit. Drop in points and available in squadrons, then we'll talk.

>>you sir ..please go play Space marines and join the thousands of terrible players of spacemarines who cry about how "spacemarines should be able to defeat anyone..it says so in their fluff!"
No, you take off your arrogance glasses and realise many eldar units don't like the new edition. I don't want to play spasemarens.

>> No.19694591

>>19694567
Incubi tend to contain an Archon with Shadowfield, making it rather risky. I'd rather have more attacks, but it seems to boil down to personal preference and your roles for specific units units.

>> No.19694595

>>19694555
>Having to drop points into an attached character just to make certain units work
And, again, the fact that if people do follow through on their threats to ally Farseers to everything, that character won't function anymore. This could be messy.

>> No.19694606

>>19694591
The trick was to slice the Incubi to bits with the banshees, wait for the Archon to kill the banshees and proceed to overload the Archon's shadowfield with scatterlazors. As soon as he failed one he'd be dead.

Instant death doesn't work like it used to does it?

>> No.19694611

>>19694523
See >>19694378

>> No.19694614

>>19694523
There's only a few armies with easy access to assault vehicles. Marine armies have Land Raiders and a few have the Stormraven; Orks, Dark Eldar, and Necrons have open-topped transports, and... that's about it.

>> No.19694621

>>19694606
>wait for the Archon to kill the banshees

Not even that. Mob the Incubi, take the couple of hits from the Archon, then watch him fail the resultant morale test. Either you run him down or, hopefully, consolidate close enough to stop him rallying and joining another unit. Then shoot him to death.

>> No.19694636

As a Dark Eldar player I got pretty nerfed. No pain tokens for me when fighting Imperial Guard and my Incubi should avoid Terminators like the plague now.

>> No.19694641

Ok so with my party buses fucked by glancing rules and Australian level overpricing, I'm thinking jetbikes, d-cannons, swooping hawks, clowns and farseers with the odd wraith lord and scatter laser war walkers and mabey some forgeworld flyers (Titan holofields just to fuck with those buying dedicated AA)

>> No.19694643

>>19694636
>No pain tokens for me when fighting Imperial Guard

Explain?

>> No.19694644

>>19694621
Usually the DEldar players I play against shove 3 haemoniculi in the incubi deathstar to boost the Archon to fearless.

>> No.19694652
File: 142 KB, 350x306, tguJiIs_ancient-aliens-guy-350x306.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694652

>>19694595
That will happen until people realize that they're missing out on other things allies could provide rather than some admittedly good psychic defense. For everyone but dark eldar and tau, the farseer's buffs are limited to the eldar portion of the force, and doom can still be halted by deny the witch saves. Farseers in every list will just be a phase.

>> No.19694666

>>19694641
>>Jetbikes
Yes.
>>d-cannons
No
>>swooping hawks
No. NO. They are just bad without any redeeming factors.
>>clowns
Yes.
>>Farseers
YES.
>>the odd wraith lord
They work in pairs.
>>scatter laser war walkers
Okay
>>forgeworld flyers
Just how are you planning to field these?

>> No.19694669

>>19694652
Incubi with Doom and Guide support look like fun.

>> No.19694688

>>19694621
I might try that. Now I just shoot the unit a bit and then charge with scorpions or clowns.

>> No.19694689

>>19694669
Since Incubi don't shoot, they don't need guide.

Trueborn with splinter cannons on the other hand...

>> No.19694696

>>19694666
Corsairs, and hawks can spam heywire nades, jump bomb jump with a winged autarch with fusion gun and take down zooming flyers with intercept

>> No.19694698

>>19694689
Doesn't it work with melee attacks now? I don't have the rulebook yet, but I heard something to that effect.

>> No.19694704

>>19694666
>without any redeeming factors.

They're going to decimate tanks if they can get close to them. I can see a small squad of 6 with an Exarch being useful for pouncing on vehicles and killing them with Haywire Grenades. They're not going to be gamewinners, but they look like there's some niche use now. I'm planning on experimenting with such a small squad as allies for my Dark Eldar, just to see how they do.

>> No.19694706

>>19694696
They can't assault flyers, can they now?

>> No.19694707

>>19694689
He may have meant the pseudo-Guide power from the rulebook. It does work on CC to-hits.

>> No.19694716

>>19694706
I thought that was the reason they exist, Never need worse than 4 to hit a vehicle

>> No.19694721

>>19694707
Then you need 2 farseers to have doom as well.

>> No.19694726

>>19694611
Eh, I was hoping for that masterly genius that says 2D6+3 and D6+9 are the same and then calls people idiots to weigh in...

>Captcha: masterly tsCDesc
No farking way. I didn't even look at it before typing.

>> No.19694731

>>19694706

No they can't.

>>19694716

Which is irrelevant because you can't make a charge against a zooming flyer.

>> No.19694743

>>19694652
>Farseers in every list will just be a phase
I just hope you're right, alien guy.

>>19694707
>It does work on CC to-hits
HOLY SHIT. That's pretty sweet.

>> No.19694751

>>19694731
Well that eats dick, so how about shining spears, warp spiders and vipers? how bout those for cost vs what you get?

>> No.19694752

>Guided Fire Warriors
>new rapid fire rules

>> No.19694756

DE player here. Played against my friends DA Termi-Spam. The new template rules, the (somewhat)nerfed Feel no Pain, overwatch and the 2d6 charge distance and HP rule really fucked me over. Feel like I only lost and other armies gained in the new edition so far. And it feels like I am forced to take Eldar allies along.

>> No.19694763

>>19694751
Still nope.
Spiders might be worth it, but Spears and Vipers are still a joke.

>> No.19694765

>>19694553
Well, you do have witnessing, and a chance to use embolden warlocks.

>> No.19694771

>>19694751
Glance rules make spiders better, I think. Strike or jump beind vehicle, glance to death.

Vypers too are a bit better as you can give them extra shuricannon and still shoot with a 12" move. Plus a jink save of 5+ or 4+ if you go fast. But I'd imagine War Walkers still win overall.

>> No.19694790

>>shining spears
Fast-ish expensive now gimped assault unit that lacks attacks and AP.
>>warp spiders
Extremely manoeuvrable quick shooty unit. Excellent against non-MEQ's, rapeface against tyranids and Deldar.
>>vipers
Almost self-detonating low BS gun platform that has horribly overpriced weapons.

>> No.19694791

>>19694756
What's your list?
I've tested 6E against some brosa in the 500-1500 range and never noticed a nerf outside of power weapons and templates.

>> No.19694793

>>19694751
>>19694763
Skilled rider gets a +1 to Jink, lest we forget. I can see potential in that.

>> No.19694800

>>19694765
True, but I still think trying to use a Farseer power would still be as risky as something very risky. I think Farseers will end up acting as mutual deterrents, and if anyone actually needs their powers they'll have to go all out to kill the opposing Farseer before they try.

FARSEERHAMMER 40,000.

>> No.19694803

>>19694793
Low saves aren't the problem.

>> No.19694806

>>19694793
Also lance adds +1s to a 6 base and 8 for exarch so while not as good with the ap still smack pretty hard, add jink save and improved toughness with the new hit and run these guys could be ok

>> No.19694811

>>19686281

For fuck sake, I'm considering making a macro so I don't need to keep typing this:

YOU CANNOT FORTUNE DARK ELDAR UNITS.

>> No.19694815

>>19694806
Spiders are flat out better against everything, so wy waste a slot?

>> No.19694838

>>19694811
Umm, why's that? They're brothers in arms on the ally matrix, so abilities and psychic powers can cross over.

>> No.19694840

>>19694800
And which army needs their psychic powers the most? You guessed it! Welcome to 6th ed, Xeno, where every flavorful bit that you had ends up biting you in the ass.

In all seriousness, I don't think that a seer with RoWit and an embolden lock is taking as much risk. If you're doing two and devote one seer (say even eldrad) to rulebook powers (you get a lot of cards, good chance to pull the cool ones), you can Puppetry his own Basilisk to shoot the fucker down or something. Allied Farseer won't have much to offer in terms of such curveballs.
But I'll need to test it.

>> No.19694845

>>19694838

The Eldar codex specifies that Fortune only works on Eldar units.

>> No.19694852
File: 245 KB, 894x894, 1302639960896.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694852

>>19694523
I have run the maths on it...
The math in this >>19694378
is correct minus one thing
You FAILED to take into account the roll to hit.
And you math is slightly flawed, on the 1 blade hit on 11 you put .412 its .416 repeating (all repeating above 5 should be rounded up not down as per math.)and on 12 its .277 repeating not 272 and is .16 repeating so the round should go to .17. furthermore on 14 you put .076 its .083 repeating and on 15 is should be rounded up since its .027 repeating

Its taken a bit since your math is all over the place. And since your 1 blade hit table is all over the place and your 2 blade hit table is reliant on the fist its math is incorrect also.
so the changes are like such. the Singing spear has only two results possible.
1. the 1 attack hits as is in the chart.
2. the 1 attack misses Yielding all 0% across the board.

While the Singing spear is as follows.
1.0 attacks hit resulting in 0% across the board.
2. 1 attack hits as per the the chart.
3. 2 attacks hit as per the chart.

This is how things change.
spear hits in only 1 of 2 scenarios.
the Blade hits in 2 of three scenarios and yields not just more hits but more chances to glance or penetrate a vehicle.

By a difference of 0-1 hit spear
0-1-2 hits blade 100% more hits making the slightly less percentage of penetrating less significant when it has 100% more hits.

Dont fuck with me....I am the RED MOON

>> No.19694860

So is this 6th edition rulebook a kind of general ruleset for the game, and individual race codexes are like a bunch of race specific rules?

>> No.19694862

>>19694815
Good point, alsowarp hunters, how would they fare, fragile thanks to glancing but D cannons? thoughts?

>> No.19694867

>>19694860

Well...yes. This is how it's always worked.

>> No.19694869

>>19694838
He's one of those autists who think that if a power describes "friendly units" as "[faction name] units", they don't get the Battle Brothers benefits.
In other words, he's the type you could convince that an enemy eldar unut is a valid target for your Guide.

>> No.19694872

>>19694867

I don't play, I was just curious since this board always seems to have a thread up about it.

>> No.19694878

>>19694845
.... dark eldar ARE ELDAR STUPID! ITS IN THE NAME!

>> No.19694879

>>19694845
This may be a beardy rule-bending situation, but are dark eldar not eldar of some variety?

>> No.19694881

>>19694845
Dark Eldar are Eldar, as Harlequins are Eldar, as are Corsair and Exodites considered Eldar units.. official Warhammer information located in the Sanctioned rules in Imperial Armour 11


Trap Girl is right

>> No.19694882

>>19694869

Except it doesn't say "friendly units". It specifically says "Eldar units". You're flat-out ignoring limitations on rules if Dark Eldar can benefit from it.

>> No.19694884

>>19694756
See
>>19694795
>>19694834
>>19694843

That is how you play Dark Eldar now.

>> No.19694893

>>19694881
>>19694879
>>19694878
>>19694869

Saying Dark Eldar are equal to Craftworld Eldar is like saying Space Marines are equal to Chaos Space Marines because they have similar names.

>> No.19694902

>>19694882
I khow that it doesn't say that, this is what the first sentence means.
See, your reading comprehension is entirely too shit to have an opinion.

>> No.19694903

>>19694893
It's like saying Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space wolves aren't marines too. Care to make that argument?

>> No.19694908

>>19694893
dont argue me.. its OFFICIAL GAME RULES
SANCTIONED IN IMPERIAL ARMOUR 11
learn to read

>> No.19694914

>>19694903

You...just ran over your own argument.

>> No.19694915

>>19694852
The "incorrect" math is just cumulated rounding errors as I couldn't be fucked setting up the spreadsheet properly. I'll do it again if you want.

The hit rolls make no difference. You're going to need to roll the same numbers to hit with either weapon, so you'll still average twice as many hits with WB than SS (and therefore pens), so the curve stays the same. And like I said, with +1A for charging, SS becomes wildly more effective on average.

>> No.19694917

>>19694908

>offcial game rules
>Forge World

Oh wait you're serious.

>> No.19694919

>>19694882
For RAW I gotta go with this. Dark Eldar are specifically not Eldar, hence why they have to add "and Dark Eldar" to the rules for Eldar Jetbikes.

I'd allow it anyway though.

>> No.19694925

>>19694893
Which they aren't, somehow? Even so, this analogy wouldn't have been shit if SM and CSM were battle brothers.
Imagine that you have a shittily worded psychic power, which allowed you to kill a "Marine" mini immediately.
How would you resolve it, then?

>> No.19694928

>>19694915
And to clarify, I know that you get more "chances" to glance/pen with a witch blade, but the average number of glances/pens you are going to get is still lower on higher av vehicles, which is generally what matters.

>> No.19694936

>>19694915
Wildly? no.
Look take take the spear if you wanna spend 3 pts to reduce your attacks and try to be a specific tank hunting unit. Also as others stated glances are all you need..so why waste 30 pts over ten models to reduce 10 attacks and do absolutly nothing since my 4 glances wreck ANYTHING and i will glance more often with more than you will over ten models...go head..do it... do the flawed math you like...bringing your pathetic liar math here....you only do math right or wrong...and you did it wrong...thats a failure my friend...you lose.

>> No.19694937

>>19694917
Deadly serious, did you not pick up IAA second edition. We FW now, now say hello to corsairs and flyers with shielding
>>19694893
Chaos sm and SM are still both sm regardless of afilliations and differences at the end of the day both are 8' Geneticly modified humans in power armour

>> No.19694943

>>19686213
Skan'Iya is thematically appropriate to their increased deployment

>> No.19694944

>>19694914
He absolutely did not. They're marines, they share buffs. Ta-da.

>> No.19694950

>>19694917
obviously your not understanding the way GAmesworkshop and Forgeworld work these days. ANYTHING in Imperial Armour is sanctioned for Either all games or Apocalypse. These rules were sanctioned with the OFFICIAL GAMESWORKSHOP seal...its official you Ludite.

>> No.19694960
File: 56 KB, 597x473, Are you serious.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19694960

>>19694449
>It doesn't matter whether it moved or not - if you disembark, you can't charge
Seriously? I thought the 6' thing was bad.
Banshees was down for the count already with the power weapons thing, then the 6' transport stupidity.
Trow in this and they are delt a death blow.
I don't want to sound over dramatic but is there any aspect of them that didn't take a hammer to the face?
Is there any excuse to field them in the face of their cost and the other aspects?
I really hope yes as I love the models, but I'm not expecting to ever use them in 6th for anything more then a cheap laugh.

>> No.19694979

>>19694936
Firstly, I only contributed the maths because you guys were arguing which was better at taking down a vehicle. The maths is correct, the rounding error is negligible because the curve is essentially identicle. The hit rolls are irrelevant.

And you're ignoring what I'm saying, too. You still get more glance/pens on average with a singing spear, DISPITE the lower number of attacks, on anything AV11 or higher, and when you factor in +1 attack for charging, you're getting more on AV10 too. Spear is simply better at killing armor than a Witch Blade, which is the only point I've made.

>> No.19694981

I was wondering about the actual changes brought by 6th, compared to 5th, 4th, 3th, 2th and Rogue Trader.

And there's at least some points that didn't change. Players are still whining, still can't do maths and still do biblefights.

>> No.19694990

>>19694979
except I get to hit vehicles rear armour so S3 + 2d6 which is better up until AV12 is perfectly fine ...as also having 10 extra attacks and a unit that is more useful for any model with a toughness value, Monstrous creatures ect.

>> No.19694998

>>19694960
Can't think of anything, chief. The only thing they can reliably pull of now is grab power dildos and club grots to death.

>> No.19695018

>>19694960
>is there any aspect of them that didn't take a hammer to the face?
Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Avengers. The important ones.

>> No.19695034

>>19694990
>except I get to hit vehicles rear armour so S3 + 2d6 which is better up until AV12 is perfectly fine
Huh? Its not though. 1A S9+d6 is better than 2A S3+2d6 at AV11 and higher. On a charge (so +1A), its better at AV10 too, by quite a margin.
>10 extra attacks
Are you really taking a 10 warlock strong council? Well OK then. Like I said over and over though, I'm only talking about killing tanks.

>> No.19695038

>>19695018
I meant aspect of the banshee, not aspect as in aspect warriors my good man.

>> No.19695048

>>19694852
>0-1-2 hits blade 100% more hits making the slightly less percentage of penetrating less significant when it has 100% more hits
THIS IS NOT MATHS, YO.

>> No.19695052

>>19694979
I think the overall point is that while the averages may have been altered, the damage potential is fundamentally similar, and the maximum output is identical. The witchblades retain a large amount of utility as a choice.

The nerf was just not as significant as people are crying about.

>> No.19695066

>>19695034
dude your math was off by full numbers not minute rounding errors you HACK! you cant math! the Witchblade is better all around.

>> No.19695097

>>19695048
you idiot...not 100 times...100% more
take a apple for instance. you have 1 apple
i have 2 apples...cus im better than you, but tahts besides the point
you have 1 apple
i have 2 apples

how much more percent do i have?

the correct math is 100%
now you feel dumb dont you?

>> No.19695124

>>19695066
witch blade is 3 attacks on the charge, ss is 2 but can be thrown in the shooting phase for a total of 3 attacks. therfore you get the same amount of attacks. also with an AV of 10 ss is auto glance or better where as a wb needs a 7 to get a glance and higher for pen. meaning when it hits the ss wont fail you but the witchblade can. therfore ss strong .. remove kebab

>> No.19695147

>>19695097
Not the other guy but you should have said, 100% more attacks, not hits.

>> No.19695150

>>19695124
strong but not better...heres how.
30 boys charge you
you get 10 attacks, hit with 5 wound with 5
i double that...mine are better

2. tanks, i hit rear armour 58.34% (go head check my maths) I glance with 10 more attacks I take care of any vehicle i need to and dont need to penetrate it..and thats the difference.

>> No.19695179

God damnit, rulebook didn't come yet. Can you provide link with scanned rules ?

>> No.19695211

>>19695150
>>Letting boys get the charge
>>not roasting them with destructor before hand
i see your problem bt if i need melee against orks i take scorpions. SS are for getting vehichles from the back of a jetbike then pissbolting

>> No.19695241
File: 60 KB, 931x381, stupidfuckingargument.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19695241

>>19695150
Redid it for you.

Assuming we charged, which is likely, with a 10 strong warlock council (what).

Against WS0, thats 20 glance/pens (with no chance to fail) with SS at A2 or an average of 17.5 glance/pens with WBs at A3. Against WS1 you're just multiplying both numbers by 2/3.

Obviously this is mad overkill so it doesn't matter, but against higher AV (you can't charge the read of everything) and when you don't have a 10 strong squad it can be the difference.
Infantry? Yeah I know WB is better, I haven't said it isn't?

>>19695052
Its a reasonably significant nerf against armour.

>> No.19695316

>>19695052
>the maximum output is identical
The chance of actually getting that maximum output, however, is in the one case 1/6, and in the other 1/36. There's also the small issue of the new minimum output being HALF the old one...

>> No.19695341

>>19695179
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=22749324825928835390&gk=cisco

Unfortunately missing the appendix with hull points as no-one's scanned that yet. The psychic power pages are a bit blurry but we've had good scans of those for quite a while now anyway.

>> No.19695355

>>19695097
I said nothing about 100x, Mr Insultface. My point is that despite all your claims to be ALL ABOUT THE MATHS, you haven't actually run any figures at all. Instead you've waffled a bit and then said 'so the chance is obviously better'. Which is not maths.

>> No.19695375

>>19695341
>Unfortunately missing the appendix with hull points as no-one's scanned that yet
Quick! Click below!
>>19693022

>> No.19695779

>>19695241
you're missing the assault throw from the singing spear at bs4. It pushes the argument solidly in favor of singing spear across the board

>> No.19696105
File: 13 KB, 133x329, 1333281016405.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19696105

>>19695097

100% more attacks is only actually 66% more hits.

Also, it isn't 100% more attacks. Because you'll always be charging a vehicle, so it's 2 attacks (1+1) for the Spear and 3 (1+1 2 weps +1 charge) for the witchblade.

So, it's 33% more attacks. Unless you're charged, in which case it's a Walker and unless that starts with "War" the Singing Spear is automatically better simply because now you're hitting AV 12+.

So, if the Witchblade only gets 33% more attacks, for it to be better in all situations, the Singing Spear must be <23% better at penetrating when it hits (since they both have the same chance to hit, 33% more attacks is not actually 33% more hits, it's 2/3rds of that (Hit on 3+) or 22% more hits)

So, let's look at the numbers.

A Witchblade:

VS AV10: Chance of a Glance + Pen is 7+, is 58.33%

VS AV 11: Chance of Glance + Pen is 8+, is 41.66%

VS AV 12: Chance of Glance + Pen is 9+, is 27.77%

We can stop there, because it gets progressively worse.

Singing Spear:

AV 10: Autoglance, 100%
AV 11: 83%
AV 12: 66%

So, a Singing Spear is 100/58.33 or 71% better at penning AV 10. 83/41.66 or 99% better at penning AV 11. 66/27.77 or 237% better at penning AV 12.

This is all greater than 22% (or even 34% if you assume autohits, so even against a vehicle which did not move)

Therefore a spear is better against vehicles in every situation. QED.

Math is not a tool to prove you are right. It is a tool to determine who is right. Sometimes, that isn't you.

You can either accept this, or lie to yourself about it. But don't try to lie to math. It can't hear your whining.

>> No.19696118

>>19696105
>VS AV10: Chance of a Glance + Pen is 7+, is 58.33%

>Pen is 7+

Mine too.

>> No.19696140

>>19696105

My bad, that should be "50% more attacks" and "33.33% (repeating of course) required for surviv... I mean being better in all situations"

>> No.19696744

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet: With the new "blast weapons always hit vehicles at full strength" Fire Prisms got a bit more reliabe offensively. Given that there's also a short-edge deployment type now their 60" range should also be more relevant now.
Shame about the Banshees though. Perhaps the new Jump Infantry rules might make Warp Spiders a bit more useful?

>> No.19697258
File: 85 KB, 700x298, persian envoy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19697258

>>19696744
>blast weapons always hit vehicles at full strength

A THOUSEND BASILISKS OF THE IMPERIUM OF MAN DECEND UPON YOU.
OUR PIE PLATES, WILL BLOT OUT THE SUN!

>> No.19697482
File: 266 KB, 650x700, 1338678648162.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19697482

>>19697258
>Mfw

>> No.19697627

10 11 12 13 14 15
Witchblade 0.39 0.279 0.186 0.111 0.056 0.018
WB 2 swing 0.78 0.558 0.372 0.222 0.112 0.036
WB charge 1.17 0.837 0.558 0.333 0.168 0.054


Shining Spear 0.67 0.559 0.448 0.335 0.224 0.112
SS swing + throw 1.34 1.118 0.896 0.67 0.448 0.224
SS charge + throw 2.01 1.677 1.344 1.005 0.672 0.336

>> No.19697638
File: 17 KB, 600x371, chart_1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19697638

bored, here's a chart

>> No.19697643

>>19696744

They can also move 12'' and still fire both prism cannon and shuriken cannon at BS4.

>> No.19697665

This is all very interesting but more importantly, can love still bloom on the battlefield?

>> No.19697669

>>19697643
Right, now there's finally a reason to take the secondary shuricannons. Also a small buff to Falcons that way, fire three S8 shots while moving 12" erryday

>> No.19697674

>>19697665
No. The assassin takes the shot. No love blooms, only headshots.

>> No.19697685
File: 203 KB, 716x773, Tech nerd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19697685

>>19697638
>>19697627
Jesus Christ you two are still arguing?

>> No.19697700

>>19697258
I still think that change was more than a little retarded. S-D weapons and orbital lances could get away with it because they're just that devestation, but giving that to everything strikes me as a bit odd.

Against infantry I could understand (shrapnal/splatters/whatever else), but vehicles?

>> No.19697723

>>19697700
I guess it helps if you imagine that many (perhaps even most) blast weapons are energy based in one way or another. So the whole area is filled with plasma/napalm/particles/whatever and it doesn't matter much whether you're at the center or not.
For the rest just imagine the shell actually hit the vehicle and the template is just where most of the shrapnel ended up.

>> No.19697972

up

>> No.19699325
File: 6 KB, 251x159, 1286398884030.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19699325

yfw Eldar can't cast Doom, Guide and Fortune on multiple units in 6e

>> No.19699389

>>19699325
Wait, WHAT? Does the FAQ say that?

>> No.19699444

>>19699389
The FAQ says nothing about casting the same power multiple times, but the BRB does:

"A Psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per turn- even if the manifestation attempt is not successful"- p. 67

The Eldar Codex says the following:
"Farseer Psychic Powers: Unless otherwise noted, these powers work as described in the Psychic Powers section of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook..."

Previous editions allowed you to cast the same power multiple times, as long as you had the ability to cast multiple powers and the power in question wasn't a Psychic Shooting Attack. That's gone now. The only psychic power you can explicitly spam from one caster now is Gift of Chaos, because it's explicitly mentioned in the FAQ that you can cast it multiple times from the same sorceror.

>> No.19699521

>>19699444
>BAAAAAAAWWWW I CANT WIN WITHOUT SPAMMING THINGS BAAAAWWWWWW

Your kind is the reason why tournaments are shit and everyone bitches about unbalanced armies.

>> No.19699536

>>19699521
He just clarified the rules.
The fuck is your problem?

>> No.19699544

I don't think there's a single army that don't feel they've been nerfed now

if this is true, then the nerfing means very little in changed terms of power balance

>> No.19699578

>>19699444
So... Eldrad gets a kick in the balls, I see.
How do you infer the no multiple units thing? Unless I misunderstood you, I thought that your previous post meant that I can't Fortune one unite and Guide another in the same turn.

>> No.19699614

>>19690514
could that sentence of theirs be written more awkwardly?

>> No.19699634

>>19699578
No no no, you can still use different powers on different units, that's not what I meant to imply. You're just prohibited from using your warp charge on the SAME power multiple times in one turn. So you can still doom one thing, guide one thing, and fortune yourself, but you can't guide yourself AND guide your War Walkers.

It sucks, but if you really still need two fortuned/guided units at a time, you can always take a second Farseer. It's expensive, but you can do it.

>> No.19699649
File: 1.98 MB, 369x271, 1337368776001212502621.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19699649

>>19690514
>>19699614
Ooh, that reminds me

>in assaults, Swooping Hawks never require worse than a 4+ to hit vehicles without a WS
>EVERY VEHICLE HAS WS NAO!

>> No.19701266

>>19697627
>>19696105
Good work, maths people- it's pretty conclusive then that Singing Spear is much better vs. vehicles. Problem is, of course, that you still probably wouldn't want your council to be all spears- you'd want just enough to reliably crack a transport, then the rest with Witchblades to hit the troops inside. It's also worth bearing in mind that Jetseer Councils get a free S3 autohit on the charge, and also that Footseers can't assault from transports anymore so they get screwed much like Banshees did.

Of course, come the Eldar Codex the Singing Spear will probably get nerfed to Witchblade level. Which will suck ass.

>> No.19701322

>>19699634
>You're just prohibited from using your warp charge on the SAME power multiple times in one turn
This is not new. Spirit Stones specifically say they can't be used to cast the same power twice. In the codex only Eldrad can do that.

>> No.19702235

>>19699544

Well, Crons and IG.

>> No.19705454

So, are Eldar Fast Attack choices worth bothering with now then?

>> No.19705555

>>19705454
Eldar aren't worth bothering with at all.

>> No.19705684

>>19705555
You're just jelly because the Space Elves style harder than you, quadanon.

>> No.19705716

>>19705684
I'm an Eldar player though.

>> No.19705756

>>19705716
In that case you have forsaken the glorious styling of your ancestors. Although it does explain how you styled enough to get quads in the first place.

>> No.19705782

>>19705756
Y-you're right.
I have my ancestors to live up to, and a war to fight.
I have to get my style back on, and fight!

>> No.19705910

>>19705782
That's more like it! Always remember: a doomed species has nothing left to fear.

Space Elves... ride out!

>> No.19708165
File: 89 KB, 640x480, perfecto.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
19708165

>>19705910

/thread

>> No.19708376

>>19705454
Shining spears might become a bit more useful now since they always have a 5+ cover save when moving and Skilled Rider (from the exarch) improves that by +1 for a 4+ all the time and a 3+ when turbo-boosting. Also impact hits and all that, but 5 S3 hits aren't all that amazing.
Oh, and the turbo-boost move is now 36" (in addition to the 12" normal move and 2d6" move in the assault phase) so they can pretty much go anywhere anytime.

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