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[ERROR] No.19510257 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What do you think of Star Wars as a science fiction/fantasy setting /tg/?

I've recently played SWtOR II: The Sith Lords for the first time and it blew my fucking mind. That game has a philosophical depth of the like I hadn't seen since Planescape: Torment. Could anyone familiar with the SW games and novels introduce me more things like that in the Expanded Universe?

>> No.19510279

It would have been better if Star Wars wasn't so inherently dualistic.

>> No.19510292

>>19510257

Generally speaking, the majority of elements of the Expanded Universe suck donkey balls.

>> No.19510301

>>19510257

By no means I am an expert in the EU story stuff, but the general impression I get is the vast majority of Star Wars fiction is pulp action schlock with no real depth to it at all.

If anything, the SWTOR games are something of an anomaly; the vast majority of Star Wars writers aren't very good, it just so happens that Bioware (and Obsidian, in the case of SWTOR II) had a very talented writing staff.

Of course, I could be wrong.

>> No.19510306

Knights of the Old Republic 1& II, and the Clone Wars miniseries are pretty much the high point of the Star Wars expanded universe.

While the novels are entertaining and have their fans, they get a little crazy. After the emporer dies and the Death Star explodes, he ends up coming back two or three more times as zombies and ghosts, with more planet destroying ships and hast to be beat all over again.

And there's Thrawn, who is a genius alien commander who takes charge of the remnant Imperial fleet and almost overthrows the newly formed Rebel founded Republic.

Then there's the aliens from another Galaxy who use biotech and launch a massive invasion that just fucks so many characters over.

And the kids... It's like later seasons of DBZ. Everyone has a kid, and the kids look like, act like, and are named after the main characters. Al of them are jedi. They get in all kinds of crazy hijinks.

It's just... Meh.

>> No.19510310

Did you use the restoration patch for KOTOR 2?

>> No.19510320

>>19510301
You need to read all books that contain or are related to, one Grand Admiral Thrawn.

>> No.19510329

>That game has a philosophical depth of the like I hadn't seen since Planescape

That's Obsidian wizardry for you. Star Wars itself never went beyond the silly "good and evil" dichotomy.

Some novels are worth it. Look into the Darth Bane series. They tell about the Order of the Sith lords and the Rule of Two were formed.

>> No.19510355

>>19510310

I doing my second play-through with the unofficial patch. I'm afraid I haven't seen the difference yet.

>> No.19510408

>>19510301
>>19510306

>>19510301

Yes I also have the impression that I've already seen the best there is, I'm just so amazed that I feel I have to know if there's anything more like it.

>> No.19510579

In part, Kreia was supposed to be aspects of Ravel that I didn’t have time for in Planescape: Torment. Also, as much as the nature of the Force frustrated me in some respects, Kreia was the personification of that frustration – the fact that some arbitrary force would feel the need to “correct’ the human species at times with mass slaughter in Episodes 1 through 3, and the hypocrisy of the Jedi that took place in IV and V. I’ve never really forgiven Ben Kenobi for his lies in Episodes IV and V, and Kreia definitely echoes that.

Her one redeeming feature is that for a (former) Sith Lord, she loves the player and what he/she represents. She sees in the player a chance to turn away from predestination and destroy that which binds all things, giving the galaxy back its freedom.

>> No.19510612

Space fantasy should be reviled wherever it rears its grotesque head.

>> No.19511203

>>19510579
Viewing the force as a parasitic thing that directs life for its own goals was definitely new, and it pissed Lucas right the fuck off.

I liked the idea though. I'd pay $59.99 for a KOTOR 2 that was fixed up, finished, and done in modern graphics.

>> No.19511213

>>19511203

First thing Lucas did upon hearing of it was make it non-canon, and produce the Clone Wars series in retaliation.

>> No.19511258

>>19511213
>>19511203

People keep saying that Kotor 2 is not canon anymore, but I can't find any source on that.

>> No.19511295

>>19511258
It's only not canon if you listen to Lucas. And fuck him with a rusty knife. He has the moral depth of a 2 year old.

>> No.19511311

>>19510612
>SCI FI NEEDS TO BE HARD, AS HARD AS MY PENIS IS FOR HARD SCI FI!

>> No.19511320

>>19511203
>>19511213
/v/ here. Lucas and Bioware effectively retconned Kreia into being driven mad by crystals and Revan is now a weak HURRDURR IM EVIL pawn of the Sith Emperor and no longer the enigmatic general who did things for the greater good of the Republic.

>> No.19511584

>>19510579
Oh, Chris, have my writer babies.

>> No.19511924

>>19511320
TOR is garbage, and soon it will be nothing. It's already going F2P in under half a year of its release. It is a colossal failure that might break EA.

>> No.19511973

>>19511320
Wait, what? When did they do this? This is dumb. If its from the comics, it's less canon than the video games.

>> No.19511993

>>19511924
EA stocks price has been dropping hard since it came out. It's at like 12 dollars.

Anyway KOTOR 2 was good because it was written as a fuck you against star wars.

>> No.19511998

>>19511973
It's the plot of The Old Republic.

The result of George "I can't accept anything less than black and white morality" Lucas sticking his fat fingers into things.

He's a horrible influence. The only reason the original trilogy went over so well is that he had a crew of people calling him on his bullshit. But he got so famous for it, that people were afraid to call him out on it and he's been ruining the series ever since.

>> No.19512008

>>19510301
Somebody hasn't read Shatterpoint.

>> No.19512012

>>19511998
To be reasonable, the whole point of Star Wars is that its supposed to be like the old sci-fi serials of the 30s, and the black and white morality is one of the key parts of the story. It's been there ever since his first drafts. We might not like it or agree with it, but that's how it is.

I always liked Kreia's view on the Force though, that it's an insidious force playing with the sentients of the galaxy. Jolee's and Vergere's interpretations are also pretty reasonable.

>> No.19512025

>>19510301
You should read Destiny's Way.

>> No.19512033

>>19512025
Uh, scratch that, I meant you should read Traitor. DW is okay, but its pretty standard fare compared to Traitor.

>> No.19512057

>>19510257

Did you play the first SWKOTOR? I can't decide which one I like better.

>> No.19512091

>>19511998
Sadly, it's not just George.
The more complex approach to the concepts of "dark side" and "light side" that was being set up towards the end of NJO (particularly in Traitor) pissed off several writers who got together and made the "Legacy of the Force" books (not to be confused with the "Legacy" comics which are pretty cool) just as a "fuck you" to torpedo the ideas.
>>19512008
>>19512025
>Stovermind
Easily my two favorite Star Wars books because 1: they go deep into the philosophical issues of The Force and 2: Matthew Woodring Stover writes great violence.

>> No.19512120

>>19512091
Yeah, it looked like Legacy was all about upending the stuff from NJO, especially anything that implied that the dark side came from individuals instead of an actual dark side. I would've loved it if they'd left it ambiguous and unresolved as they dealt with Aboleth et al, and made Daala less of a bitch. Still, Mandalorians almost redeemed it.

>> No.19512123

>>19510257
Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy are the best books I've seen in the EU

Starts with Heir to the Empire, it is very good and Thrawn is probably the single best villain in Star Wars, and is most certainly up there if not

>> No.19512148

>>19512120
>Still, Mandalorians almost redeemed it.
Sucks that we're not getting any more Republic OPERATO- er, I mean, Commando, books because of how badly Clone Wars fucked up the Mandos.
Come on guys, at least give us another game then, RepCom is EASILY the best (Non-KotOR) Star Wars game since Jedi Knight, and it has yet to get a sequel.

>> No.19512164

>>19511203
that's a shame, particularly considering the overriding Sith instinct being the pursuit of true freedom. The idea that even in the pursuit of that freedom you could become a slave to the very tool which you used to achieve your freedom is so very compelling, and makes the Sith far more awe-inspiring.

Though, I suppose glorifying the Sith is hardly the objective of Lucas' vision of the canon (which he's viewing in 3 dimensions now, apparently)

>> No.19512181

When 90% of alien races are 'humans with weird feature' you have a shit sci fi setting.

>> No.19512182

>>19511203
Doesn't it, though? The Sith on the one side are dominated by the Dark Side, like Aboleth, while the Jedi are motivated and led by the Light.

>> No.19512188

>>19512164
>(which he's viewing in 3 dimensions now, apparently
I didn't go to see it in 3d, I'm NOT going to go see the original trilogy in 3d, and I'm not going to pirate it either. Fuck 3d, it's a stupid fucking gimmick and everybody knows it. I already got my '06 DVDs, the only way George is getting my money again is if he releases the theatrical cuts of the original trilogy on Blu-Ray.

>> No.19512196

>>19512181
You mean, Star Trek? Warhammer 40K? Buck Rogers?

>> No.19512216

>>19512188
I saw Phantom Menace in 3d and it was pretty cool.

>> No.19512223

>>19512196
Or Star Wars, Babylon 5, and virtually anything else filmed before CGI got really ridiculously cheap.

>> No.19512228

>>19512196
Yes.
Star Trek's setting is shit, it's the hook that's good.
Warhammer's setting is shit, in terms of fiction. You break it down and it falls apart like dust. It's great for a wargame. And yes, some of the novels are good, but they ignore the pretty glaring loopholes in the world.
Buck Rogers? I honestly couldn't attack it if I wanted to. But yeah if it has human with weird appendage, it's on that list.

>> No.19512234

>>19512216
Okay, I might have to see it somewhere for the fight scene in the generator room because FUCK YEAH RAY PARK AND LIAM NEESON BEATIN' THE SHIT OUT OF EACH OTHER!

>> No.19512245

>>19512228
Let's go with, "name three 'good' settings then."

>> No.19512273

The New Jedi Order is one of the best Expanded Universe novel series in my opinion. Its about a extragalactic biotechnological race called the Yuuzhan Vong that are ruthless killers with a masochistic theme. Be warned though the series is very grimdark and is very diffrent from other EU works and fans either hate it or love it for this reason.

>> No.19512288

>>19512273
Is it weird that the Yuuzhan Vong remind me of the Dark Eldar?

>> No.19512321

>That game has a philosophical depth

Ha ha

No.

The game takes pains to point out inconsistencies in the SWU, but don't confuse that for any philosophical musings.

>> No.19512328

>>19512245
Sci fi or fantasy?

Sci fi, since the thread's all about it:
Starfishers
The Cthulhu Mythos
whatever Charles Stross's sci-fi setting is called
Dune
And for free:
Gene Wolfe's Solar Cycle setting.

>> No.19512343

>>19510301
>KotOR1
>Good writing

Pick one.

There are some silly uses of OT lines and Jolee Bindo has good elements, but other than that, the writing (and everything else) are shit.

>> No.19512348

That is Obsidian writing for you.

>> No.19512353

>>19512273
NJO and Tales of the Jedi are my favorite time periods to run Star Wars RPGs in. Legacy (the comics set like a century after Jedi, not the novels) brings up third, because there's just not enough detail on how tech has advanced and the like to do it justice.
>>19512328
Dune has no aliens unless you count Navigators.
And oh look, it's all stuff from a written medium, where you can make your aliens as weird as you want rather than "well shit, we can't actually DO that for film". It's called "limitations of the medium" dude.

>> No.19512402

I agree, OP. I didn't give the setting a second glance until KotOR II.

But I think what I liked best about the KotOR games is how they made it their own canvas. So do the same!

For instance, I'm contemplating running a Star Wars game with a wuxia feel and a lot of Chinese and Southeast Asian cultural-thematic elements, making more blatant the Taoist and Buddhist analogues in Force philosophy, for instance. Why not? Come up with something cool you want to do and go nuts with it.

>> No.19512413

>>19512353
No aliens is fine for a sci-fi setting. It's even pretty logical, considering the lack of evidence regarding alien life. But if you are going to have alien life out there, most of it should not be 'human with weird feature.'
No matter the medium.
Besides, Star Wars had no problem with Jabba the Hut, and 40k has squigs and tyranid. They made aliens like they are due to lack of imagination, not lack of proper effects for the media.

>> No.19512428

>>19512413
>Star Wars had no problem with Jabba the Hut, and 40k has squigs and tyranid
Squigs and Tyranids have yet to appear in anything that's actually FILMED, and Jabba was HUGELY complex for the time. The puppet broke repeatedly while they were filming.

>> No.19512442

>>19512188
>Fuck 3d, it's a stupid fucking gimmick
I only conditionally agree on this. A movie that's been properly filmed in 3D, like Avatar, Coraline, or Prometheus looks great. It's the fucking pointless post-production 3D where it's obviously been filmed for 2D viewing that's a gimmick to get us to spend more.


And I just watched through the movies again, and could totally imagine the average RP group doing everything in the Death Star escape sequence.
GM"As you get to the top of the ramp past the doorway, it suddenly ends into a huge chasm"
P1"I close the door and shoot the control to jam it"
P2"Find the controls to extend the bridge!"
GM"Yeah, those were in that panel too"
P1"Shit, wait, stormtrooper belts have a grappling hook, right? Is there something I can hook it on to swing over?"
GM"yes, there's some equipment higher up that would work, roll a thrown weapon to see if you can hook it"

>> No.19512452

>>19512428
Space marines haven't been filmed in anything either.

And Luke got his face disfigured.

You're nitpicking, you're not giving any support to the argument that these are good series'. You're just trying to justify their lack of creativity. Don't bother replying unless you have something more important to say.

And please keep in mind that you have no need to respond. Just as you aren't going to change your opinion about these settings, I'm not gonna change mine.

>> No.19512456

>>19512288
Dark Eldar have to be evil bastards to keep Slaanesh from eating their souls while not all Vong are evil. The mutant Vong slave caste are actually pretty cool dudes and come to worship the Jedi as saviors that will free them from slavery. The masochism is quite similar though.

>> No.19512479

>>19512442
>Avatar
Decent effects, almost good fight scenes (no matter how fast they're going those arrows wouldn't do shit against a bit of Lexan, much less whatever space-age bullshitium the mech cockpits are made of) but was a shitty ripoff of Dances With Wolves, and the 3d still didn't wow me.

>> No.19512500

>>19512452
>Space marines haven't been filmed in anything either.
Bullshit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Liberation
And by the way, my whole POINT is that your argument in >>19512181 is fallacious.
You just want a comfortable number to hide behind so you can claim "If it does x it's shit" rather than the honest "I don't like it if it does x" because you're a self-absorbed idiot.

>> No.19512510

The sad thing about KOTOR 2 is although the restoration patches have restored everything that can be restored the game will never be complete. Obsidian was planning to add many more things before being forced into a Christmas release and in the games files are bits of cool shit that can't be put into the larger puzzle and restored. LucasArts has refused to give Obsidian permission to release a content patch for some reason. If they were to make a content patch after all these years or remake the game I would pay good money.

>> No.19512514

>>19512456
I'm well aware of the complexities of the Yuuzhan Vong (why do you think I'm using the long form rather than the dismissive and disrespectful "vong") I meant aesthetically, and I should have been clearer on that.

>> No.19512530

>>19512442
Well have I got a gift for you!
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html
They're doing all six movies, and they're up to Luke and Ben entering Mos Eisley.

>> No.19512534

>>19512228
40K's setting is still better than Star Wars.
A setting where everyone is an asshole is a lot more realistic than one where assholes and non-assholes are clearly defined. That is laughable detached from real life and immensely shallow. The realistic depiction of actual people and the resistance of moralfaggotry is why the franchise is so popular.

>> No.19512676

>>19512534
>40k
>realistic (in any way, whatsoever)
Pick one.

I'm not siding with one over the other, but your argument is utter bollocks.

As for star wars, the EU that came out up to about '97-'98 was (mostly) pretty good. Then the prequels came out, Lucas took more control again, and the whole thing's gone to shit, with everything revolving around Jedi. Fuck you Lucas! Playing Rebel scum>Jedi wankers any day of the week.
Still, Star Wars 1313 looks (tentatively) hopeful at getting back to what SW should actually be about.

>> No.19512690

>>19512676

he's kinda right though
The Imperium is a far more realistic depiction of a galaxy spanning government than the Republic

>> No.19512712

>>19512534
>A setting where everyone is an asshole is a lot more realistic than one where assholes and non-assholes are clearly defined. That is laughable detached from real life and immensely shallow. The realistic depiction of actual people and the resistance of moralfaggotry is why the franchise is so popular.
>One-dimensional grimdark is so much better than two-dimensional noblebright because it's so EDGY and MATURE and that means that because I like it then I'M MATURE!
ftfy 40kid
Yes, people are assholes, but that doesn't make "EVERYONE'S A HORRIBLE EVIL PUPPYKICKING MONSTER!" any more realistic than "EVERYONE'S EITHER A PARAGON OF JUSTICE OR A HORRIBLE SATURDAY MORNING CARTOON VILLAIN" which, by the way, is a MASSIVE strawmanning of the setting.
>>19512690
>The Imperium is a far more realistic depiction of a galaxy spanning government than the Republic
Well they're BOTH hilariously inept, one just knows how to make guns that aren't shit.

>> No.19512729

>>19512712
>but that doesn't make "EVERYONE'S A HORRIBLE EVIL PUPPYKICKING MONSTER!" any more realistic than "EVERYONE'S EITHER A PARAGON OF JUSTICE OR A HORRIBLE SATURDAY MORNING CARTOON VILLAIN"

Hey guess what, the former is real life, the latter is fiction. Also it's not a strawmanning if KOTOR 2 was written to address it.

>> No.19512795

>>19512729
So Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Theresa, and Mr. Rogers are evil?
"Grimdark" is just as detached from reality as anything else.
And yes, it is a strawmanning. Read the Darth Bane books, read Traitor, read Shatterpoint, read the Thrawn Trilogy. All of them don't fall into it. The problem lies purely with THE FORCE, not the whole setting. Han Solo's first scene is blowing a man away under the table, he was a drug smuggler (seriously hard shit, Glitterstim will fuck you up and is addictive as hell). Gilad Pellaeon is a perfectly decent human being who also happens to wind up leader of the Imperial Remnant. Talon Karrde is an arms dealer and a protagonist. Corran Horn kills numerous innocents while infiltrating a group of pirates to get his wife back.
All those people? Protagonists.

>> No.19512818

>>19512795
>Mother Theresa
>not evil

I got news for you, I'm afraid.

>> No.19512826

>>19512795
>Mother Theresa

Boy have I got news for you.
The other two could easily be exposed for nothing more than self-righteous frauds with ulterior motives or over-blown paragons of incredibly shallow and unrealistic moral values, especially Rogers.
Try again.

>> No.19512833

>>19512826
God I remember what it was like to be fourteen.

>> No.19512841

>>19512818
>>19512826

>Hey, I watched that episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that said that Mother Theresa was totally evil! I'm in the know, maaaaaan!

>> No.19512851

>>19512833

Nope.

>Having morals or being subject to morality in any way, shape or form.

>Following some non-written rules you were taught as a kid, following society's will intead of yours

>Being a slave, "hurr i habe 2 feels bad if i do dis i was tol its wrongz"

>Implying Altruism isn't the cancer of the century

>in before durr hurr hurr edgy

Nope.

>> No.19512856

>>19512841
there's more documentation of it that Penn and Teller though

>> No.19512863

>>19512841
Never seen the episode, and I already knew this.

>> No.19512880

>>19512851
I remember when I was fourteen...Then I grew up, made real friends, and went halfway around the world.

>> No.19512882

>>19512833
>>19512851
I feels like I just read this shitty argument.

>> No.19512895

>>19512880
>in before durr hurr hurr edgy
>you walk right into it

Are you that braindead?

>> No.19512900

>>19512895
saying "inb4" doesn't make it untrue.
Seriously, I'm sure that your problems will get better once you grow up and stop being an "I hate the world ebbrywun's eebil" faggot.

>> No.19512902

>>19512895
>Hey, tell me why I'm wrong WITHOUT TELLING ME YOU'RE WRONG
>You're wrong because...
>LOL NOPE
0/10

>> No.19512925

Hey. Hey faggots. Here's a tip: stop responding to trolls.

>> No.19513517

>>19512851
>Rules you were taught as kids, following them makes you a slave
>Rules like fairness, moral plurality, honoring contracts and promises
>Rules that keep society functioning
>YOU CAN'T MAKE ME WEAR SEATBELT THAT'S COMMUNISM
>HURR DURR I'M FREE

>> No.19513554

>>19512530
I'd forgotten that existed after I stopped reading for a while, thanks!

>> No.19516224

>>19512851
>Implying Altruism isn't the cancer of the century

>> No.19516273

Star Wars...

I can't think of a more bland setting.

>> No.19516365

>>19512851
Why are EVERY KOTOR 2 fan I have encountered on the internet just like this?

>> No.19516372

>following society's will intead of yours

Are you implying that society's will is always different than an individual's will?

>> No.19516449

>>19513517
>>19516224

>Altruism
>Not cancer

>Giving up first world resources to filthy immigrants
>Allowing 3rd world savages in civilized countries and giving them free healthcare and money because "Omg they poor they need the foods ;_; u have no hearts!11"

>I could go on, the altruism is detrimental in many ways
>inb4 go back to /pol/ hurr

>> No.19516481

>>19512851
>>19516449

Way to misunderstand what Kreia said, you fucking Randroid

>> No.19516535

>>19516481

This. I loved KotOR II but it had a lot more going on than Randian teenage brooding, and Kreia especially was dreaming bigger than that.

>> No.19516540

>>19516481
>>19516535
Try to disprove the argument then. Should be simple.

>> No.19516630

>ITT people misunderstand KOTOR II

Kreia was wrong, objectively wrong. Like all Sith her delusions of grandeur made her think she knew more about what she was talking about than she actually did. Her philosophy might be compelling in a universe NOT run by a dualistic energy field but unfortunately its not. For Force Sensitives the Dark Side is literally a drug, taking little hits by being a jackass or callous every now and then is NOT OKAY. Just like you can't take "one or two shots of cocaine every now and then" and not hope to end up a hopeless addict

>> No.19516665

>>19516449
>Altruism is detrimental because it involves giving up my excess resources to people who suffer to level the playing field.
>I have a greater right to everything I have because I was born with it and they were not.
>Ergo, everyone who isn't born with the means to sustain themselves should be allowed to languish and die.

>> No.19516675

>>19516540

Kriea wasn't against the "light side" or "dark side". She favored altruism when it was sensible and selfishness when it was sensible.

She wanted to destroy the force (both light, dark, and gray) because the force was fate. It dictated when you were born, what you did, and when you died and assigned arbitrary values to your actions while it itself controlled them.

She wanted to get rid of that. She wanted people to do what they'll do and not have to worry about being manipulated by some higher force that judged them.

She wanted to "kill god", which in the KOTOR II universe, is not necessarily a being of benevolence that your parents told you to obey, but a force of control whose interpreters/enforcers are various orders of hooded mystics wielding laser swords.

>> No.19516709

>>19516675
Isn't The Force being a sentient and willful entity only from the prequels? Why bother even acknowledging it?

>> No.19516711

>>19512120
>>19512148
I have never and most likely will never forgive LucasCorp for firing Karen Traviss and preventing her from completing the Republic/Imperial Commando books and bringing the Mandalorians back to the level of notoriety and awesomeness that the fans deserved. I will never forgive them for taking all that work and shitting all over it with the Clone Wars.

>> No.19516719

>>19516711
But the fans hated Traviss.

>> No.19516741

>>19516709

No. Kriea explains that the force is not only willful, but that it manipulates people to its ends. The result is stuff like Jedi/Sith wars. She hates that and hates the force.

>> No.19516746

>>19516711
Traviss was awful

>> No.19516754

>>19516741
That doesn't answer my question. I recall all that shit originating from Episode 1 with the 'will of the Force' constantly being cited.

>> No.19516761

>>19516719
A certain subset did, but book sales spoke otherwise. Personally (and obviously by my earlier post), I adored the series, as well as the books she wrote for the Post-Trilogy Post-Vong series, which frankly was lackluster as many other have said. I think she was one of the best authors in the EU, right along with Drew Karpyshn and Zahn (hallowed be his name).

>> No.19516765

I just want to check that /tg/ doesn't have some revelationary evidence or viewpoint to debunk my conclusion.

If I run a Star Wars RPG game set in the Old Republic setting, I am completely justified in ignoring ToR and everything it established in the expanded universe, and making up my own history, regardless of the fact atleast two of my players like ToR... Right?

>> No.19516773

>>19516675
The thing is that KOTOR 2 fags use this scenario as an allegory for opposing morality and striving to be as amoral as possible.

>> No.19516781

>>19516765
Just set it before anything from TOR comes into play

>> No.19516797

>>19516765
KOTOR era is overrated

Do a Great Sith War game, Exar Kun makes a better villain than Raven, The Triumvirate, and Vitiate combined

Or be balls to the walls awesome and run the game during the Great Hyperspace War

>> No.19516812

>>19516797
Both of those fall into the Old Republic era

>> No.19516824

>>19516761

>if it sells well, it must be good

>> No.19516836

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_iSQ65ZDAE

They tired to warn us...but we didn't listen.

>> No.19516837

>>19516797
Who's Raven?

>> No.19516843

>>19516675

This. Kreia rejected both Sith and Jedi philosophy and wanted to change the game, and in her eyes, free everybody by eliminating the Force.

>>19516765

I in fact highly recommend it. As a GM, canon makes a good servant but a poor master.

>>19516773

As a KotOR II fag myself this disappoints me. I didn't know this. I hate the Internet sometimes.

>> No.19516864

>>19516843
>I didn't know this.

I do not believe you. I have never encountered a KOTOR 2 fan who was not a drooling Randroid harping on about every and any moral-centric character in fiction.

>> No.19516869

>>19516797
It's been at least a couple of years since I played KotOR/2 (I need to correct this), but it's all starting to come back.

What reading should I do for the Great Sith War or Hyperspace Wars? I've read a fair number of Star Wars comics (mostly in the Yuuzhan Vong eras and beyond), but they're hard as ass to find usually.

>> No.19516874

>>19516837

...Raven Symone? Someone shoop her as a Sith

>> No.19516879

>>19516864

0/10

>> No.19516892

>>19516773
They tend to miss the fact that she criticizes altruism because it's actually harmful. She criticizes it when it makes someone weaker because they aren't facing their own problems. Or when it's short sighted (Nar-Shadda beggars). She believes in a sort of forced Darwinism; everyone struggles, and either gets better for it, or dies trying. A bit heartless, but more valid sometimes than nihilism and sadism or trying to be space jesus because it makes you feel good (and gives xp). Funny enough, the xp system makes the fact that you steal their challenges a reality in game terms.

Though, the game rarely gave you options for agreeing with her in dialogue. You couldn't make people solve their own problems, and the choices sadly boiled down to light, dark, neutral, and sometimes superlight and superdark.

As an aside, anyone else disappointed that you couldn't actually kill the force in Kotor 2 or destroy the Wall of the Faithless? Both games got my justice flowing, and I was so eager to dispense it, then boiled down to a boss fight against something that wasn't my goal in the first place.

>> No.19516897

>>19516869
Knights of the Old Republic was the name of a huge comic series encompassing everything from the Great Hyperspace War to the Jedi Civil War. It's easy to find these days.
Also be aware that these comics actually portrayed the Old Republic as OLD, everything looks ancient instead of copying the OT style.

>> No.19516907

>>19516864

...I played light side and am left wing in real life? I really couldn't be farther from a Randroid. Sorry dude. It might help that I was already something like 21 when I played it (mostly too poor to keep up with new systems so I'm a few years behind; might get a 360 as a Master's degree present to myself). Well past the teenage rebellion phase.

>> No.19516922

>>19516869
Great Sith War and Great Hyperspace War were both done mostly in comic series by Dark Horse in the dark olden times of late 90s early 2000s. They might be really hard to find. I recommend Wookiepedia, its better than nothing

>> No.19516929

>>19516892

So I assume you believe >>19512851 and >>19516449 are right on the money?

As I said, typical KOTOR 2 fag.

>> No.19516976

>>19516929
I'm sorry, but I think I shouldn't have said 'because' in the first sentence, and I'm not sure if you kept reading. To be fair, I played light side because it was the best option presented to me. I was allowed to either help, ignore, or kill people in my path, as the dialogue allows. There was no option to empower them to solve their own problems (simpler ones, not like killing mercenaries or mandalorians).

On the off chance that you aren't deliberate, I'll say that I disagree absolutely with the guy you linked, and I'd do the right thing regardless of the consequences to myself. And if that meant not paying off someones gambling debt and helping them earn the money fairly, so be it. If it meant teaching a town how to fight instead of killing all of their enemies and allowing the root problem, so be it. If they can't kill mandalorians, well, then I'll fucking kill the mandalorians.

>> No.19516981

>>19516929

>assuming
>calling people fag

go away child

>> No.19517022

>>19516630

> Just like you can't take "one or two shots of cocaine every now and then" and not hope to end up a hopeless addict

Uh, I've got some news for you...

>> No.19517086

I liked KOTORII, but I really disliked how it went out of it's way to try and be deep and meaningful.

I like Star Wars because of the pulp sci-fi Space Opera simplicity it has, if I want deep meanings I have many other things to choose from.

>> No.19517091

>>19517022
This.

If we continue to dwell on the expanded universe, then I'd note that Luke Skywalker actually taught the importance of finding the correct balance between the light and dark sides of the force at his Jedi Academy, emphasising that focussing too strongly on either end of the spectrum was limiting.

Granted, this isn't particularly well represented in Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, where you get positive messages if you have mostly light-side powers, and negative messages if you have mostly dark-side powers (and the verbal equivalent of a gentle pat on the back if you have them perfectly balanced), but the point it still touched on.

>> No.19517129

>>19517091
Because Jedi Academy is set after the point where they realize trying to strike a balance was a mistake.

Luke's Jedi Order went through three main phases; a replica of the original Jedi order, an attempt to strike a balance between light and dark, and back to the original Jedi way with most of the pointless dogma removed.

>> No.19517171

>Put a gray character in a black and white setting (Star Wars)
>So deep, brilliant, amazing

>Put a white character in a black and gray setting (40K)
>OMG FUCK DIS MORALFAG SHIT GET OUT FAG I'M GONNA CALL NIETZSCHE ON YOUR ASS FAGGOT

>> No.19517181

>>19517171

Truth

>> No.19517192

>>19517171
>implying the moralfag marines like Salamanders aren't popular based largely on them being good guys in 40K

>> No.19517403

>>19517171

White characters in 40k are unbelieveable.Grey characters never are.End of story.


The concept of good and evil is very childish to begin with anyways.

>> No.19517416

>>19517403
Bold faced hypocrisy. You're just booty busted about moralfags in any and every setting and are probably the same troglodyte whining about altruism. Prove me wrong.

>> No.19517454

>>19517416

Maybe you start explaining me how this is hypocrisy first.

But no , I'm not the same guy and I got bored reading your uneducated conversation pretty quick.

>> No.19517473

>>19517454
>a gray character who criticizes a black and white setting is objectively good and deep, what an interesting way to challenge this setting!
>a good character in a shit world is objectively terrible and shallow because fuck da moralfag scum, shallow plebeians!

>> No.19517492

>>19517473

I didn't use any of those words , maybe you try again.

>> No.19517506

>>19516273
What about a setting where everyone works 9-5 in a crucible office and the only foods are tofu and vanilla ice cream?

>> No.19517521

>>19517506
*cucible

>> No.19517549

>>19517506
Vanilla ice cream is the most delicious of ice creams.

>> No.19517575

>>19517549

If it were any other color than white, it wouldn't be as beautiful

>> No.19517602

>>19517575
It's not beautiful.
It's delicious.

>> No.19517631

>>19517549
I prefer chocolate chip cookie dough.

>> No.19520787

>>19517492
>>19517473
I just have to say this:

Plebians is one of my favorite words.

>> No.19520907

>>19520787
It's PLEBEIAN, you chucklefuck.

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