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[ERROR] No.19427174 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What's an actual CONVINCING (or at least interesting) way to handle the 'Lawful Good' to 'Lawful Evil' transition?
I don't even fucking need to say pic unrelated.

>> No.19427199

We talking immediate or gradual?

>> No.19427200

>>19427174
Why would you say pic unrelated?
In fact, it's very, very related.
Go watch the movies again, and you'll answer your own question.

>> No.19427202

none, alignments are an incredibly inaccurate way to account for psychology/behavior/morality and their progression.

>> No.19427206

>>19427199
Gradual of course, immediate is just even more ridiculous.

>> No.19427211

A gradual decline in following the character's altruistic sense and a gradual increase in following the law to the letter and then bending it a little at a time until BOOM LE

>> No.19427218

Lawful Good Character's family is taken. He has the small finger of each family member mailed to him in a small enevelope over the course of one week, and another letter saying if he wants them to live he has to set about a specific goal.

Achiving said goal is possible...but not without performing evil acts. To Mitigate this he establishes rules that will allow him to achompleesh his goal, but still be lawful.

>> No.19427219

>> No.19427220

Outside of some artifact of great power, there is no reason for a character to make that kind of Heel-Face turn

That's one of the reasons those movies sucked. Real people don't just wake up one day like "I guess I'm a kill-crazy child murderer now. That's weird, cause I was a lawful good space-knight yesterday. OH WELL!"

>> No.19427235

A character starting out as an idealistic youth dedicated to upholding the law, having his moral sense chipped away by the terrible conduct of both his enemies and his allies.

>> No.19427248

LN to LE, or vice versa, is easy, LN to LG is easy, LG to LN is harder.

maybe a horrors-of-war approach, but that works better on a lawful to chaotic axis.

love or personal appetites, maybe. Or a Cao Cao approach, surpassing the bounds of ordinary ethics for a greater good.

>> No.19427255

Rationalization and precedent. Things are easier the more often you do them. People like to avoid this, or just deny it, because it makes life a lot harder, but once you steal once and get away with it, it's a LOT easier to steal again.

You can hem and haw about slippery slopes all you want, they exist and they happen. How do you think politicians become so hilariously corrupt late in life? The Judicial system of the USA actually FUNCTIONS on slippery slopes. The primary rationalization of uncommon litigatory technique is through precedent, and the more frequently a precedent is cited, the more easily acceptable the argument becomes, and the more universal the interpretation becomes. People work in a very, very similar way.

>> No.19427261

>>19427255
yes, and today it usually happens most in the legal realm, but traditionally LG is the most resistant to slippery slopes, compared to CG.

>> No.19427286

>>19427218
Good example. A time-honored way to do it is with "What would you kill for? What are you willing to die for? How far would you go to save the one you love?" To an extent, that's what they were going for with the whole "Padme's death" nightmare, it was just pulled off badly. Someone it in a desperate situation, and he's willing to do ANYTHING, no matter how reprehensible, to set things right and protect what's important to him, and damn the consequences.

>> No.19427291

>>19427174
>Anakin Skywalker
>LG to LE
>Lawful

...really?

Anakin Skywalker, constantly reprimanded for disobeying ordrers, following his emotions, and in general not respecting the precepts of his order is LG? Really? Even Obi-wan was NG at best.

>> No.19427297

I was a teaching assistant for a general ed calc course a couple years ago. I had around 360 students. About ten were sapient, while the rest couldn't even plug into a function. Going from trying to help students to using the syllabus against them is really easy. Change teacher to priest or paladin, and there you go.

>> No.19427313

>>19427291
People on /tg/ don't understand alignment at all.

>> No.19427320

>>19427248
I'm reading the Three Kingdoms right now, and Cao Cao does not stop at NE disguised as LG disguised as LE, he transcends alignment to fill all boxes on the alignment chart.

>> No.19427339

Lawful characters all love "laws" "rules" "codes of conduct", the main difference between LG and LE characters is;

>LG characters work to help others within the confines of their laws.

>LE characters disregard others' needs except when their laws call for it.

Both characters still help themselves, but the LG character is going out of his way to find ways to be good to others.

A good way to shift from LG to LE (slowly) is for the character to fail to save others (probably people close to him in there somewhere) and becoming more dogmatic about his laws, feeling that vigilance is the only solution.

That covers LG>LN easily enough, from there make him ever more inwardly focused and more extreme and uncaring about his application of law, to the point where he will not only deny help but actively do harm in the name of his laws.

This is excepting that it's a character who favors the "Evil" part of evil over "Lawful", but I tend to attribute that to outsiders and undead only, except in rare cases.

If played carefully it's not very difficult at all. And no Anakin in the prequels is not a good example.

>> No.19427341

Corrupting influence teaching someone to rationalize evil acts as necessary. For example:
-You have to kill that kid to create a succession crisis that will weaken our nation's enemies.
-Orc genocide is good because it protects the innocent humans.
-You should talk the governor into adopting stricter punishments for low level crimes to discourage them in the future.

Regular things like greed, lust, envy, vengeance, pride, etc. This are human emotions that exist in everyone and can be manipulated to cause a shift in a person.

The most important thing is that it's gradual and organic. The biggest problem with that movie was how sudden the change was. Though Anakin was never what I'd call Lawful Good, more chaotic neutral. But a big problem with the alignment system in general is whether a selfish action (killing others for love or money) is chaotic or evil.

tl;dr Gradual change.

>> No.19427343

>>19427174
Like so.

He sees a galaxy in turmoil. a government system that stagnant and corrupt.

he wants to ensure a level of peace and security that the current system isn't providing.

then he goes about trying to do this though harsher and harsher methods. until he is emperor where his word is law and he finally has the power to do get things done.

>> No.19427349

>>19427297
That's a really bad example. Using this logic it's like a paladin tasked with watching over a village killing the blacksmith because he can't farm, or killing the farmers because they can't smith. Being ill suited to one role does not make somebody completely worthless.

>> No.19427354

>>19427313
Because it's a terrible system that explained differently by the same design team.

>> No.19427356

He just wanted what's best for his children and family.

>> No.19427357

>>19427343
>Palpatine
>not just plain ole evil from birth

No really, they even wrote a book about it.

>> No.19427372

>>19427357
get your EU crap out of here!

>> No.19427374

Generally that type of transition is the hardest, but I see it manifest in two ways: someone who loses faith in a previous code, but is so used to following one they adopt a new one that matches the new hatred in their heart, or someone who never forgets the importance of order but is driven to become more ruthless until he loses sight and the end becomes the means.
Basically a broken spirit who takes on a sinister code to replace the comort the old one had given him, and a disillusioned hero who slowly came to "realize" that being the good guy held him back from accomplishing his goals, and lost track of himself.

>> No.19427376

>>19427343
He was sith from Ep 1, he was pretty clearly evil the entire time.

>> No.19427385

>>19427357

Did you not read how he was pretty certain that only the order and power of his empire was all that was preventing an invasion from outside the galaxy?

>> No.19427387

>>19427372
well for once I'm with ya on that Georgie boy

>> No.19427395

>>19427385
>paying attention to EU crap that basically is the Star Wars equivalent to 'I WISH THE AXIS WON WW2 TO KEEP THE SAND NIGGERS AWAY'

>> No.19427397

Alignment should be treated like a normal distribution, a bell curve, not a flat line.

90% of people should be neutral.

>> No.19427402

>>19427385
How does that change the fact that he was an evil bastard? Also, EU is shit. All of it.

>> No.19427409

>>19427357
>Star Wars
>Expanded Universe
ISHYGDDT

As for LG to LE, how about the Imperium of Man itself? Emprah sets out to unite a fractured humanity and does so, then ten thousand years of loss force them Grimdark.

>> No.19427410

"In my time I have found what I thought to be fair was foul, and foul fair. I have seen the good become wicked, and the wicked become good. And now... Now the distinction between good and evil strikes me as a dark joke."

>> No.19427419

>>19427409
>implying man isn't inherently evil

>> No.19427430

i fail to see how anakin embodies Lawfulness in the first place

>> No.19427433

Mr. Smith goes to Washington with high hopes.

But he's disappointed. Everyone is abusing the system. His faith is shaken, but he remains true to his principles.

He gets put into power as an intended pawn, but he doesn't act as expected. He starts using his power to, as he sees it, weed out corruption. But he's being pretty draconic in his efforts. Fact is, he's very, very pissed at the corruption he's seen.

His enemies strike back at him, and try to remove him from power. Their plan fails, but only just barely. Recognizing that the system is too open to exploitation, he declares himself dictator. He's lost all patience at this point. He enforces laws brutally. Thieves go from a term in jail to losing a limb. Free speech is a thing of the past. Anyone who would speak against Mr. Smith is executed.

It may appear harsh, but this is the only way to build an orderly society.

>> No.19427434

>>19427376
that's true. but the story he tells Anakin in episode 2 or 3 is clearly about him.

so it is at least implied that he had noble goals when he started his mission.

>> No.19427440

>>19427248
I've seen a good way of doing LG-to-LN described before, though not really implemented. Basically, if a LG guy saw someone being mugged, he would step in, because it's both lawful and good to do so, but what if they have the power (physically or politically) to crack down and prevent crimes from taking place at all? From there, why not use that power to prevent what he perceives as "injustices"? Is that still LG? What about using secret police to crack down on resentment? After all, if the character simply has the greater good in mind, surely anyone opposed to their actions must be opposed to that good, right? Suddenly, the character is the oppressor, when all he wanted was to help people.

The difference is that a LG character, as I see it, believes in Good as the endgame, and sees Law as the way to accomplish that. A LN, in contrast, sees Law AS the Good. It's easy, and fairly believable, for someone with power and influence to make that leap, especially if they're the one who make the Law to protect the Good in the first place.

>> No.19427445

>>19427385
>Emperor was the good guy all along!

That's all well and good but Palpatine was just the BBEG because in the original movies (remember those? It's getting harder) he was there to represent what corrupted the (back then) pure and noble Anakin and what threatened to do the same to Luke, he is the cancer at the heart of the whole struggle across the three films, there was no realistic dimension to him, no more than any other evil wizard from a fairy tale who the hero slays.

>> No.19427469

40k Inquisition. Better 100 innocents perish than one heretic escape, corrupt, conspire, and bring down an hive billions strong.

Alignment simply doesn't correspond well to real ethical theories.

>> No.19427481

>>19427469
>real ethical theories.
>40K

god help us all

>> No.19427486

>>19427385
The Sith almost ALWAYS start off trying to do "the right thing without red tape" and they always become cackling despots without realizing it

Its how the Dark Side works

>> No.19427488

um...

>> No.19427511

>utilitarian consequentialism
>kantian deontology
>virtue ethics

where would these fit on the alignment scale?

>> No.19427513

>>19427433

>>19427440 here.

It sounds like the two of us are saying basically the same thing. You made a way better visual out of it, though. Way easier to understand than mine.

>> No.19427518

Pic related

>> No.19427529

>>19427445
>>19427486

Wasn't that what we were talking about, going from LG to LE? "Road to Hell paved with good intentions" and all that?

>> No.19427532

>>19427481
sure. The reason people like, and lol, at 40k is because it combines utilitarian and deontological doctrine, something quite difficult in any reasonable setting.

>> No.19427535

>>19427511
Good point. The 3x3 alignment grid does not exist to give structure to moral dilemmas. It exists to give your paladin something to smite.

>> No.19427541

>>19427409
In the hands of any writer worth a goddamn the Imperium comes up pretty much Lawful Neutral. In Abnett's case it even seems like he tries to push it towards Good but reigns himself in before he runs too far with it.

>> No.19427562

>>19427541
well abnett always tries to tell the story of good men stuck working for a LN (or LE depending on your opinion on the imperium) system.

>> No.19427565

>>19427529
That's not Palpatine though.
At the very most you could say that his intentions were in interest of the Sith 'religion' but even then he's always been about just being a tyrant because he's the bad guy.

>> No.19427569

>>19427529
No because Sith do not go from LG to LE

They go from LE (I'm trying to save the galaxy, even if I have to become the monster everyone reviles to do it) to CE (UNLIMIIITEEEEEDDD POOOWWWAAAHHH)

>> No.19427581

No better example.

(In addition, fuck WoW for depriving us of Warcraft 4)

>> No.19427583

>>19427565
yeah, he fell to LE but he didn't set out to be all evil. no one does. granted the emperor fell fairly early in his journey

>> No.19427594

>>19427562
Oh I know, I like it a great deal, but I know some people get upset with him for not 'doing 40K right'.

>> No.19427612

>>19427594
He does 40k better than most people.
NKF is currently my favorite HH novel.

>> No.19427616

>>19427583
>he didn't set out to be all evil.

How do you know?
Listen, we weren't given backstory in the old days about Vader and Palpatine because all we needed to know was that Anakin was a good and noble Jedi who went bad, and this shriveled motherfucker did it. That's it. Nobody ever said 'oh he was once an idealistic politician who eventually went bad'.

>> No.19427618

>>19427569
you're correct. but you don't start out Sith.
Sith is where you go after you fall to evil.

>> No.19427620

I believe there is only a very thin line between the LG and LE.
If you read in dragon lance, they did a pretty convincing thing with it. The holiest of holy king became so obsessed with smiting evil that his rule became tyrannical and unaccepting. He would eradicate entire species not because they were evil, but because they didnt follow the will of his diety (kender were one of the ones on his list before being back handed by Paladine).
So the best way I think, is to do the old "the way to ruin is paved with good intentions.". Make the character so focused in his ways that the mere thought of, say, an orc, is intolerable and its exsistance is an abomination. A true paranoia that evil is constantly around him, and its his lifes work to root it out of every man woman, and child.

>> No.19427645

>>19427562
>>19427541

Damn, Eisenhorn is a depressing series of books.

>> No.19427663

>>19427581
So, a magic soulstealing artifact is the best way?

>> No.19427679

>>19427616

we kinda were given a glimpse into the emperors backstory.
>>19427434
mentions it.

but in that discussion where he tempts anakin it is implied that he is talking about himself.


also im gonna say this, no one sees themselves as the villain. and no one is pure evil from day 1. only poorly written characters and monsters are.
but then again... this is Star Wars

>> No.19427688

>>19427594
I don't wanna derail the thread but on average you hear complaints about Abnett getting some details wrong and generally writing 40K pretty much like Star Wars. Personally I can't blame the guy though considering what he has to work with.

>> No.19427690

I assume you're talking from a player perspective.
Players can choose to slide along that line.
a GM cannot force them to do so.

>> No.19427700

The other night we were talking about the story of the D&D player who tried to run a game with a bunch of Christians to get them to stop accusing him of worshiping Satan. It struck me how similar the D&D alignment system is to the simplistic moral absolutism of the Christian and how well it fits their expectations. "Detect Evil" and "Smite Evil" are superpowers that Christians really believe Jesus gave them. Negative energy is inherently evil and thus they can immediately detect and smite undead animated with negative energy, worshipers of evil gods that wield negative energy, and the evil gods full of negative energy themselves. The D&D alignment system works as well to handle real-world issues as the crazy Christians who try to use "Detect Evil" on gays, liberals, Muslims, and girls who want to play sports. It doesn't work. All it does is expose the person trying to do it as mentally deficient.

>> No.19427714

>>19427688
well yeah if you go to the B&C board. those guys aren't happy with anything.

>> No.19427731

>>19427581

This. In the novelization and the backstory you see he was a dick before it but he was still a devout paladin, a disciplined combatant and he was helpful even as a kid. Of course, he had a nice bunch of complexes too.

Even when massacred infected civilians, murdered his mercenaries, burned down his own ships, left his oldest friend and mentor to die and grabbed a cursed sword with a goat skull on its hilt he still thought the is serving the greater good and iultimately a firm strike will be the better decision.

Then, Frostmourne stole his soul and kept preying on his weaknesses.

Then the MMO turned into him a saturday morning villain.


I wish they wouldnt just throw away such an established character.

>> No.19427734

>>19427620
>>19427440
>>19427433
So much THIS. You a Pratchett fan, OP? You ever read Night Watch? Picture Vimes beginning a slow descent into becoming Swing. That is all

>> No.19427736

>>19427700
Whoa, what? Link.

>> No.19427743

This is how I LE

>> No.19427767

Watch the 2011 movie Black Death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death_%28film%29

It's a spoiler, but it's the most relative way I would see lawful good turn.

>> No.19427768

>>19427663

he was already LE at that point

he went LN at the culling and LE when burned his own ships just because he had a chip on his shoulder

>> No.19427770

>>19427743
cute. but get on my level

>> No.19427784

>>19427618
For people like Paply and others during the Rule of Two yeah. Guys from the Old Sith Empire. . . well being born and raised as a force sensitive in a society ruled by Sith makes you pretty "evil" pretty fast since you basically have to kill or be killed simply to make the team.

Sith at the beginning of their careers seem to have goals ranging from "get back at those that mocked me" to "take over the galaxy for its own sake" and they lie/kill/corrupt to achieve them. Sith at the end of their lives are basically stuck in the rat race of Get Power -> Use Power to get More Power -> ad infinitum, where the terrible things they do have stopped being a means to an and but have become both the means and the end into themselves.

>> No.19427786

Hey

Hey fags

How do you make LE turn LG and NOT make it about *~Redemption~* ?

>> No.19427808

>>19427786
>How do you make LE turn LG and NOT make it about *~Redemption~* ?
you don't. the turn from evil to good is ALL about redemption

>> No.19427812

>>19427770
>Not killing your father
>Not killing your own surrogate mother
>Not killing your wife and child

All to rid the world of evils

>> No.19427817

LE to LG without redemption? I like it.

>> No.19427835

>>19427786

He reads some statistics about the results of his laws and decides being "subject-friendly" results in more success in the given context so he stops with the violent stuff and goes for efficency instead of intimidiation and changes his doctrine accordingly.

Oh, also. EVERY Lawful creature ever has a doctrine. A code of conduct. A set of personal rules they always obey.The LE in question just revisited his and found it wrong.

>> No.19427847

>>19427786
>>19427808

Isn't that what Lord Vetinari has become over the years?

>> No.19427854

This is how you LG to CE

>> No.19427860

>>19427812

Dukat was the perfect example of LE. and a great BBEG.
he had several moments where he could of been redeemed but always turned back to evil.
till his daughter was killed and he went full on balls out CE and tried to kill the Gods of Bajor.

>> No.19427864

Have the character read a book or attend a rally, and really like it.

Lawful good merely means one thinks that living lawfully is the best for everyone, and they do it for everyone.

Lawful evil means the person uses the law to benefit themselves, despite others.
Have the character read an egoist/individualist work on philosophy, and be like... YEAH!

Suddenly DND evil.
Ayn Rand qualifies for that strongly.
Evil is just malicious egoism.

Any alignment doesn't mean that person isn't tolerable, after all, the alignments are people's inner personality, not outer persona.
I could be chaotic evil and pay my taxes.
I would just hate doing it and hate everyone else benefitting from it, all while still using the public library.

Problem with DND is moral extremism.

>> No.19427872

LG to LE


/thread

>> No.19427881

>>19427786
Again, I say there isnt such a big rift between the two. LE can have just as much restraint as LG, its CE that gets batshit insane (usually).
Best way I can see LE to LG, is by having a common enemy. You fight along side your LG opposites for so long that you come to respect the warrior and not the king. he can still say "I regret nothing in my life. My actions were as true as my strikes. I followed my law and my leader with heart and soul, even if is damned by the good aligned. My king has changed, but my views, they have not."
Law is important to lawful characters, the only difference is whos making the laws.

>> No.19427892

>>19427731
In defense of the MMO, he wasn't really Arthas by the time he showed up on camera. Arthas didn't start as the Lich King. He Ner'zhul did. Arthas put on the crown and merged with Ner'zhul, which turned them into the singular entity - The Lich King. This happened at the end of The Frozen Throne expansion in WC3.

Now, I'm not saying the character was presented all that well in the MMO, but there is a reason that he wasn't acting like Arthas anymore.

>> No.19427893

>>19427854
That was my thought process those episodes:

>Sayaka starts hacking at a witch while laughing about how it doesn't hurt anymore
"WELP PALADIN HAS FALLEN"

>> No.19427898

>>19427860
Yeah, but Kerrytugu is an example of LG to LE.

He pretty much kills everyone and anyone that can be determined as "evil" by him. His ideal is to wish for a world without war and evil, by any means necessary.

He's a good and different kind of example of LG to LE.

>> No.19427900

>>19427808

Lawful Evil to Lawful Good

and no chance of redemption!


can I get hand?

>> No.19427908

>>19427898
ah. i just figured you were posting an example of Lawful Evil.

never mind then.

>> No.19427915

>>19427900
>LE to NG

Not being a dick anymore doesn't make you lawful good Goldhand

>> No.19427925

How bout some love for being CG by pretending to be LE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHR0UPHERQ

>> No.19427944

>>19427892

It was bullshit. The book and the MMO constantly see-sawed back and forth on evertything. Did they merge or not? Arthas had any good in him or not?

I hate it because they missed out so many possibilies of a good story and a good video game.

>> No.19427945

>>19427915
but jaime becomes a true Paladin after... said event.

he rescues damsels in distress. does everything in his power to keep every oath he swore. even if it was sworn at sword point.

>> No.19427950

Hey.

Hey /tg/.

What alignment is Elric?

>> No.19427951

Pic is related. But the execution was VERY poor.
Palpatine brainwashed him, made him question everything he was ever told or believed. You acn see it through the shitty writing.

The way to fall isn't through temptation, it's through disillusionment.

>> No.19427963

A guy who just up and got sick of cleaning up everyone else's shit. Spend half your life trying to fix the Federation, fix the Empire, fix the Kingdom... and just get fucking sick of watching tyrants who outrank you break stuff for their own amusement, or watching your underlings wander off to rape and kill. You get sick of playing nice and trying to make it work, and you just start killing fuckers so the shit you fix will stay fixed.

Maybe it starts small, with one "accident." Maybe it is an accident, and you just don't tell anyone. Or maybe it's the last five minutes of Godfather Part 1 and twenty shitkickers get some fast-acting lead poisoning. Then you end up looking like Tywin Lannister, the old evil dude who is just tired of fixing what other people break.

>> No.19427972

>>19427900

Fuck Jaime Lannister, he is just a murderous dick who loses the ability to murder as easily as he used to.

>> No.19427980

>>19427951
>Pic is related
>no pic
mfw

>> No.19427989

Lady Stoneheart

Neutral Good to Lawful Evil?

>> No.19427998

>>19427972
THANK YOU for proving my point!

LE to LG (or at least Good) with no chance of being redeemed in the eyes of either the reader or Westros!

>> No.19428001

>>19427898
Kirei fell from LG or LN to CE. Kerrytugu, OTH, was a consequentialist the whole time. The alignment chart doesn't apply to him easily, since his whole being is wrapped around the utilitarian tradeoff, and never falters even upon obtaining the grail.

>> No.19428007

>>19427989
more like NG to NE

>> No.19428010

>>19428001
One mans paladin is another mans terrorist.

>> No.19428027

>>19427998

There is absolutely nothing good about Jaime and you know it.

>> No.19428032

>>19427980
he means the pic in OP's post that OP said wasn't related dude

>> No.19428037

>>19427950
CE. He wields a soul-eating sword for the demon lords of chaos, and the occasional act of law or random kindness doesn't change that.

>> No.19428058

>>19427998

Because the character is different from the reader.

A LE dictator could go from slaughtering millions of puppies and touching billions of sourcebook with cheetos dusted hands to the most inoffensive, pacifist NG monk ever, if he is described that way the audience will hate him even MORE despite not being evil anymore, since he got away scott free.

Redemption is just a story element that happens independently from alignment change.

Not every alignment change is fall from heaven or redemtpion, but every fall from heaven or redeption is alignment change

>> No.19428062

>>19428037
But didn't he settl down with a wife and lived a boring life in a merchant city until the lords of Law made him their delivery boy?

>> No.19428070

My paladin switched because he found out his god was going to exterminatus all mortal races.
It was quite slow but that was the turning point.
over the campaign he'd been put in more and more difficult moral situations.
He'd taken an attitude of "A paladins life is sacrifice" to it.
Basically meaning that in order to do his duty he had to be willing to sacrifice everything, not just his life.

Then when that knowledge was discovered he basically fell, because it was the lawful good thing to do.
I still play him more like a greyguard by helping people and following the rules of the order.
no murder, no rape and no oath breaking.
There was also a really awkward scene where he stole something for the first time in his life.

But over all it's pretty much the same he just chose to follow an evil god, because it was the only way to protect.

TL:DR
play off the characters motivations, twist them around, the allignment system is dumb but use it's flaws to your own ends.

>> No.19428082

>>19427736
I'm not >>19427700
but i'll tell ya man, I can't see any sort of faith (even this obsession with 'athiesm') being more than a sort of mental sickness. I mean, it's just an observation I have, but observations and the experiments based on them are all humanity really have.

>> No.19428097

>>19428058
well what i was trying to say is that Jamie becomes a better person and a true knight.

but because of his reputation around westros and his past deeds he will never be forgiven in the eyes of the people. that's what i meant by no chance for redemption.

>> No.19428131

This is how
Just bring it from a society down to a personal level

>> No.19428155

like this
<------

>> No.19428167

>>19427972
>Kills the Mad King after years of insane bullshit
>All to stop the city full on innocent civilians burning to the ground
>Sits on the throne waiting for his new king
I dunno he's usually reasonable.

>> No.19428176

>>19427925
even though he was an imposter playing a part.

that is a FANTASTIC Lawful Evil speech!

>> No.19428200

>>19428167

He throws children out of windows, murders northmen, and fucks his sister. He is completely unrepentant about these acts. Good acts don't erase unrepentant evil acts.

>> No.19428205

>>19428155
that one always makes me chuckle.


on-topic: OP, simple, take good cop and place im in horribly corrupt shady section of the police in a horribly corrupt shady section of town, where keeping to the spirit of the law tends to cause one to meet with very unfortunate mishaps.

>> No.19428221

>>19428200
he only threw 1 child out of a window. and he was spying on him.

he didn't murder any northman, he fought in a war and the northman were on the other side.

i can't really defend the incest but Jaime's flaw was always that he was manipulated by Cersci

>> No.19428236

>>19428155

clearly the irony was just lost on you.
but it's ok.
im sure he will forgive you.

>> No.19428251

>>19428155
Hint: He was evil from the start.

He's just spinning his actions as good.

>> No.19428263

>>19428221

So casually murdering Ned's bannermen in Kings Landing doesn't count as murder?

>> No.19428268

>>19428200
Tosses the kid to save his sister and three children.
Kills northerners because his king made war on them.
I got nothing on fucking his sister.

I see Jaime as CG.

>> No.19428269

>>19427218
>2012
>Not have pre-committed to ignore attempts at blackmail
>Shiggy diggy doo
I like the idea of being disappointed by people around you, and being betrayed by those you try to help. Go from "If we all work together, we can make a better world!" to "We need harsh laws to keep these retards from destroying everything". You're better than everyone else because you follow your own enlightened self interest, while they're slaves to their passions and appetites.

>> No.19428273

>>19428263
Ned was resisting arrest.

>> No.19428277

>>19428263
To the best of his knowledge, the Starks had taken his brother hostage. Jaime Lannister doesn't stand for that kind of bullshit.

>> No.19428279

>>19428263
His superior's order. He cannot disobey the crown's commands. And with Robert as he was Cersei had that spot.

>> No.19428288

>>19428167
so? any evil alignment has an interest in preserving their population and/or power base from unnecessary damage, except some kinds of extreme CE.

it's not what people will do, but what they won't. can you see any good or neutral alignment murdering kids to conceal their affair?

>> No.19428292

>>19427925

Cardassians are top tier at being nuanced villains, even when they are trying to be good. Especially when they are trying to be good.

>> No.19428295

>>19428263
also, all of that was BEFORE his turn back toward good.

he doesn't become good till Storm of Swords

>> No.19428306

>>19428292
fuck yeah!

"What you call genocide, I call days work."
amazing

>> No.19428309

>>19428269
>>Not have pre-committed to murder attempted blackmailers
Don't blackmail people. It gives them every reason to kill you in order to silence you.
And if you set up a deadman's switch to release the blackmail information if you die, that gives them every reason to torture you into revealing how to disable the deadman's switch before killing you.
If you attempt to blackmail, you have gone full retard.

>> No.19428317

>>19428273
>>19428277
>>19428279
>>19428295

Ned was the fucking Hand of the King. Jaime never renounce his actions, he just lost the ability to commit them.

>> No.19428320

>>19428288
Jaime didn't murder any kids. he just crippled one.
brann lived

>> No.19428326

>>19428317

you've only watched the show huh?

>> No.19428334

>>19428317
He didn't have the 1000 gold to pay the fine, we've all played oblivion, we know how it works. You resist arrest the city guard murders your ass.

>> No.19428348

>>19428317
Pretty sure Eddard had resigned as hand of the king at this point. Which is the only reason Jamie was able to do this and get away with it.

>> No.19428359

>>19427872
>Belldandy

Fuck that bitch.

<---- Mfw I found out what she'd been doing ALL ALONG

>> No.19428361

>>19427945
He also borderline rapes his sister in a chapel.

He goes from LE to somewhere between NG and CG. That's the whole point. He's cast all the way down the feudalism ladder and now sees how fucked everything really is.

>> No.19428370

>>19428361
kindness, empathy, and keeping your word aren't Good, they're true neutral. Good is a higher standard.

>> No.19428376

>>19428326

Actually, I've only read the books. Granted, I read them all in less than a week so I will concede that I had zero time to get over all the horrible shit that Jaime does.

>> No.19428378

>>19427433
Now I'm gonna have to watch Mr. Smith goes to Washington with new eyes.

>> No.19428379

>>19428361
It wasn't really rape. He just came on strong.

also he was still on his way toward the good side of the alignment chart. soon after that he starts to see what a crazy bitch his sister is and how she has been using him his whole life

>> No.19428396

>>19428361
She was wet and wanting wasn't she?

>> No.19428400

>>19428370
>kindness isn't good

Dufuk?

>> No.19428480

>>19428400
no, it's not. you are neutral. your friends are neutral. that bro? he's neutral. so's the fucking asshole next door.

even hitler loved dogs, Saddam gave to charity, and other evil dudes had their nice points. they were still evil. good deeds that cost nothing, mean nothing.

>> No.19428495

>>19427174
Seeing everything you believe in be abused by some other power, then try to stop it. But then your forced to compromise again and again, then one day you wake up in your lair.

>> No.19428524

>>19428480
>goes out of his way to save Caitlin's brother's life and to save Riverrun from a siege.
>saves Brienne not once but 3 times. even going out of his way to do so. and at the extreme risk of his own life.
>rescues Tyrion from being executed and helps him escape.
>tells Tyrion the truth about his wife.

He's good. he was evil and did a lot of evil things. but all those evil things were done because he was manipulated by his sister. once he shrugs her off he can become the hero that Westros needs and the true knight he was always supposed to be.

>> No.19428811

Lawful Good to Evil in one step?
The Answer is simple
>Fire

>> No.19428833

>>19428811
isn't 2face True Neutral?

everything he does is based on the flip of a coin. it could be something evil or good.

>> No.19428841

>>19428811
Massive mental trauma, along with the having one's life permanently ruined? Well, at least his political career.

>> No.19428853

>>19428833
> literally does everything by chance
> not CN

>> No.19428856

>>19428833
I think in the film he was motivated by revenge pure and simple.
The Coin is "code of honor." Keeping him lawful.
Though kidnapping people and then presenting them with the threat of death, not quite Lawful neutral.
Did he flip a coin to say "Heads I go and kidnap the family, tails I watch Nascar." Doubt it.

>> No.19428892

>>19428856
>Did he flip a coin to say "Heads I go and kidnap the family, tails I watch Nascar." Doubt it.

it was on the deleted scenes

>> No.19428912

>>19428524

Yeah, Jaime definitely had an alignment shift from NE to CN and then to CG. Being Good doesn't automatically wash away your sins. That's ridiculous. Being Good describes a pattern of behavior. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is where people fuck everything up with the Alignment system. They're descriptions of behavioral patterns. That's *it*. They imply nothing about ethics, justice, retribution, punishment or reward. It just so happens that those behavioral patterns affect (and are affected by) physical laws in the universe of Dungeons and Dragons. It's still not a particularly good system, though.

>> No.19428931

>>19428892
Wonder if every morning he flips the coin, heads he gets up and does something. Tails he shoots himself.

>> No.19428943

>>19428931
in the comics, when he was at Arkham his psychosis got so bad that he couldn't even take a crap without flipping a coin first.

>> No.19429075

Corrupted by power.

He started out with good intentions: enforce the law to ensure the greater good. Then at some point he came to the conclusion that his service to law and order didn't need to be selfless, monk-like dedication. He could maintain law and order while at the same time satisfying his own wants and needs.

It starts our small; I bribe here or there. Getting preferential treatment. Rewarding sycophants and marginalizing critics. But as he goes along he becomes more and more "ambiguous" about his ethics and morality. It no longer phases him to harm the innocent or betray comrades or collaborate with enemies provided the end result is the upholding of order and the forwarding of his own standing. At that point he has fully transitioned from LG to LE: He see's the law as a tool to give him power over others and retain it.

Pic related. That's how I Lawful Evil: a smug, manipulative bastard who enjoys fucking over his enemies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJvAHMtN04c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8B5jSLaAPA

>> No.19432989

>>19427847
>Isn't that what Lord Vetinari has become over the years?

Vetenari was pretty much always LG. As the Tyrant he has to give a show of being this harsh, dangerous man, but in reality everything he's done has made the city better. He's just really good at the psychological aspects of ruling. To the point where he knows exactly how to play Vimes to get him to do something by telling him not to do it.

And since he is the law, everything he does counts as lawful, such as faking executions because the criminal in question would be a great benefit to the city. (See Moist von Lipwig, who made the post office great and reformed the clacks, reformed the banking system, and is likely to be made the tax master in the next book he's in)

At least he isn't chaotic stupid like all off his predecessors.

>> No.19433001

Palps was pretty much always the bad guy. Everything in the prequels was engineered so he'd take power as Emperor. Sure, he did it because he forsaw the Yuuzhan Vong. And built super weapons to fight them, but ended up turning them on his own people to keep them in line.

In Anakin's case, he was a kid who was powerful, but kept getting thrown against the wall. The Council saw how powerful he was in the force, but didn't want him trained. His mother's kidnapping led him to slaughter a village of Tusken, but he became a war hero later on, one of the great leaders of the Clone Wars.

And all through that Palps was grooming him, bit by bit, to be his apprentice. The unranked Council appointment was what really started his fall. Palps and the Council both wanted him to be their spy, something he shouldn't have been forced to choose between.

Once he finally did fall, he went stupid evil because he thought it was the only way he could get Palps to turn his back long enough to put a lightsaber in it. And just kept failing at those schemes until his own son was strong enough to beat him, and realized that killing Palp while he was zapping and gloating would be his only chance.

>> No.19433042

Read McBeth.

>> No.19433078

The character is framed for a crime. In the meantime, while in jail, his family, compatriots etc are killed seemingly by the same powers that framed him. He has to break out with the help of other prisoners who are guilty as fuck and get revenge. The lawful part is hard though, because you can't really be lawful evil if you're on the run as a fugitive. Fuck it, nevermind

>> No.19433155

>>19427174

An idealist who works within the law, doing everything right, because he believes doing so benefits himself and others. This person faces a conflict of faith, where they discover the laws aren't in place to benefit everyone, but only the ones at the top; the ones making the laws, and their friends.

At this point, the options open up to them depending on how they resolve their crisis.

>> No.19433691

>>19427343

You missed the part where he was behind all the turmoil from the beginning as a brilliant chessmaster.

>> No.19433706

>>19427402

Counterpoint:
Zahn
Stackpole
Allston

>> No.19433709

>>19433155

>This person faces a conflict of faith, where they discover the laws aren't in place to benefit everyone, but only the ones at the top; the ones making the laws, and their friends.

This is the bullshit chaoticfags believe. A truly lawful individual would try to change the law according to the local jurisdiction, point out logical errors, call for a vote, form a popular movement for change, not going FUK DA SYSTEM XD chaotic retard. He MIGHT do it but he wouldnt be LG anymore.

Conflicts between laws arise all the time by the way, and they can be resolved within the system, sticking to proper codes of conduct. Because thats a Lawful guy does. He believes in the system, the rules, the laws, the due process, his doctrines. He believes handling systems orderly will be more beneficial to everyone.

Even if he sees and a deems a law unfair, he will respect it to agree. Because its the Law. A binding agreement between the State and the people.

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