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[ERROR] No.19336642 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Quick question, could a "odinary" human wear eldar armor?

>> No.19336658

>>19336642
>Quick question, could a "odinary" human wear eldar armor?
>odinary

>> No.19336668

Muh heritage

>> No.19336678

Uh, I suppose if the dimensions are the same they should be fine. I'm not sure if Eldar armor has some weird magic or tech going on with it...

>> No.19336682

>>19336658
My spelling is shite, sory budie

>> No.19336699

Eldar power armour requires a particular psychic discipline in order to "turn it on" as it were
All Eldar are psykers at some level, most just use their psychic potential to activate their armor, the others are stuff like farseers

>> No.19336703

>>19336678
it's space goop given shape and function by eldar mageeks, unless he has eldar mageeks he's just covering himself in spandex and marzipan.

>> No.19336706

>>19336642
Probably, but it's not going to fit terribly well. Eldar are far taller and more slender than your average human, so it's going to be pretty tight and uncomfortable. They're also not going to be able to make use of most of the inbuilt systems, as they're activated subconsciously by the psychic thoughts and needs of the Eldar wearing it. Essentially, it's just going to be a suit of pretty, high-quality mesh armour that doesn't fit right.

>> No.19336816

>>19336703

Does anyone else see Eldar Korra here?

>> No.19337730

>>19336642
To elaborate on what others have said here the answer is "yes, but..." Eldar armour, like much of their technology, is psyker-activated. It uses the natural psyker talents that all Eldar possess to react to any attacks the armour recieves (by stiffening, giving way, dispersing impacts, etc). Without a psyker trained in using the armour like this, it won't do you any good at all. Might as well just wear a jumpsuit.

>> No.19337751

>>19336816
No.

>> No.19337787

>>19336816
the smile is drawn in a similar way, but that's about it.

>> No.19337806

>>19336706
oh hey, its DLFG!

I've been wondering where you've been. I haven't seen one of your art dumps in a while.

If you're still in this thread, please email me at the email provided, I have a certain need of your expertise, a task you are uniquely suited for.

>> No.19338097

>>19337806
Stop hitting on her, silly boy.

>> No.19338143

Futher question, would a human wearing an eldar armor with a helmet be able to pass as an Eldar, or would they notice?

>> No.19338166

>>19338143
Apparently the way Eldar move is pretty distinctive. Also, if they ever had to run, the jig would be up immediately, as Eldar run like blurs.

>> No.19338192

>>19338143
>would a human wearing an eldar armor with a helmet be able to pass as an Eldar

No. Flat out no. They move differently, and they communicate differently - they use a lot of very subtle body language, and there's a psychic component as well. They'd notice something was wrong very quickly, and aren't likely to be amused when they realise the attempted deception.

>> No.19338206

>>19338166
...
crap.


I mainly asked because we are tasked with killing an Eldar Farseer in our Dork Heresy game, and we wanted to disguise the dude who speaks "Eldar" as a, well, Eldar, to get as close to her as possible.
Well, time for a full frontal assult

>> No.19338219

But wait, what about....

HALF-ELDAR??????????????????????

WHERE IS YOUR KHAINE NOW???

They should make that canon again

>> No.19338237

>>19338206

>Get in the Eldar armour.
>Limp clumsily towards the farseer, grabbing your thigh, and yelling out "help" in Eldar language.
>Get close enough
>BLAM TO THE XENO'S FACE

>> No.19338247

>>19338206
> we wanted to disguise the dude who speaks "Eldar" as a, well, Eldar, to get as close to her as possible.

That wouldn't work on several different levels.

Aside from the fact that farseers are very powerful psychics that could read the guy's mind and immediately know that he was human and an assassin, just speaking the eldar language doesn't mean that you sound like an eldar.

>> No.19338251

>>19338206
Use fake eldar to distract them and maybre they will play along for a bit because noone could be that stupid or obvious and they can kill the Monkeigh easily if it does anything.
Meanwhile your real attack is already happening beforee they realise that its a double fakeout.

>> No.19338256

>>19338237
That's...pretty smart, actually.
Good idea!

>> No.19338263

>>19338247
not to mention they can predict this...

>> No.19338265

>>19338251
>>19338247
Back to where we started..

>> No.19338276

>>19338206
Man, you should not be fighting a Farseer in a Dark Heresy game. Deathwatch, sure, but not Dark Heresy.

1. He's going to tear you all apart.
2. Anyone he doesn't tear apart he'll mindrape.
3. He inevitably knows what your plan is already.

>> No.19338289

>>19338237
Eldar can smell humans.

>> No.19338292

>>19338256
Except that Farseers are mind-readers. And precogs.

Don't ever expect to catch a Farseer by surprise. Their entire shtick is knowing what you're thinking before you've even thought it.

>> No.19338295

Wait.
Provided I have a currently unconscious
Eldar, whose gear I planned to steal, would it be possible to implant some remotely detonated explosive in his stomach or whatever, tell him to say/give whatever to the Farseer, and then blow him up, or would they find that out, due to their FOUL WARP TRICKERY?

>> No.19338305

>>19338265

>Acquire Exitus Rifle.
>Spend many hours on the practice range
>Wait for the Farseer to expose his head a few miles away.
>Problem solved.

>> No.19338309

>>19338292
Their entire shtick is failing when it is time to act.

Just put a chainsword in its guts.

>> No.19338311

>>19338305
But, can Love bloom, even on the battlefield?

>> No.19338315

>>19338295

THAT'S DOUBLY FOULED UP, SINCE THE FARSEER DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO PRY INTO HIS ALLY'S MIND, SINCE HIS ALLY IS GOING TO BE THINKING "RUN AWAY I HAVE A BOMB IN MY STOMACH" AS LOUD AS HE CAN, WITH NO GUARDING.

>> No.19338319

>>19338143

Possibly. Depends on if the DH/RT/DW (lolwut) game you're playing has reached the point where the group and GM are both having fun and acting silly.

>> No.19338322

>>19338305
>take aim
>fire
>there are no bullets in your rifle
>the bush next to you is a Ranger
>all the bushes next to you are Rangers
>laughing_Farseers.jpg

>> No.19338326

The thing with a Farseer is that, under most circumstances, if it looks like they're putting themselves in grave peril...there's good reason for it. Hell, if they're sacrificing their lives, then it's most likely because the runes have told them that this is the better of all possible options. So at that point, you have to wonder "should I even BE killing this Farseer?", because you might be setting in motion some horrific chain of events that will bring ruination upon a thousand Imperial worlds or somesuch.

Their farseeing is not flawless, true, but it's pretty damned close nine times out of ten.

>> No.19338333

>>19338315
But he wouldn't know, would he? He was unconscious when we captured him, and hasn't even woken up, so would he know that we implanted something into him?

Alternativly, how convincing would an Eldar servitor be (made from said eldar)?

>> No.19338335

>>19338276
> Man, you should not be fighting a Farseer in a Dark Heresy game. Deathwatch, sure, but not Dark Heresy.

Listen to this man.

A farseer is WAY beyond the pay grade of a DH group. I'm reminded of a little encounter in the Fallen Suns module for RT, where the PCs end up running into what is essentially a DH group and it's laughable how far out of their league the DH group is.

>> No.19338343

Oh, I've got a great idea!
Tell your local Imperial Guard/Space Marine base that there's a farseer over here who's planning xeno stuff.

Let the Imperium do all the hard work.

>> No.19338349

>>19338333
> Alternativly, how convincing would an Eldar servitor be (made from said eldar)?

Not at all. Eldar and conventional cybernetics do not play well.

>> No.19338350

Find a blank and have fun as they show the eldar how fun mind rape is from the OTHER side

>> No.19338355

>>19338333
>But he wouldn't know, would he? He was unconscious when we captured him, and hasn't even woken up, so would he know that we implanted something into him?
POINT. HOWEVER "RUN AWAY, I WAS CAPTURED AND PROBABLY COMPROMISED" IS JUST AS LIKELY, AND JUST AS EASILY FOULS UP THE PLAN.

>Alternativly, how convincing would an Eldar servitor be (made from said eldar)?
FUCKING NOT AT ALL. IMAGINE A BRAIN-DAMAGED CAT TRYING TO PASS FOR A WALKING, TALKING PERSON.

>> No.19338356

>>19338335
Not my idea, the GM said that we could use a challange.
But the Inquisitor mainly wants us killed, so yeah

>> No.19338362

>>19338335
>A farseer is WAY beyond the pay grade of a DH group.

Depends on how tough they are. I've fought Daemon Princes in DH, a Farseer wouldn't be more difficult.

>> No.19338368

>>19338333
The Imperium doesn't know how Eldar brains work, so a servitor is a long-shot.

As for the Farseer - whether he knows or not really depends on his level of competence. A competent Farseer should see this coming a mile away; he may have even known about it a year or two in advance.

>> No.19338373

Crash a vehichle into them, summon a bunch of Slaaneshi Daemons and run away.

>> No.19338374

>>19338355
You arne't making this easy for us..

Ok, a papermasks with an eldar face drawn onto it, how effectiv would that be as a disguise?

>> No.19338377

>>19338362
> I've fought Daemon Princes in DH

I take it then you've have the misfortune of playing Ascension, in which case you have my condolences.

>> No.19338379

>>19338349
Dark eldars proved you wrong

>> No.19338381

>>19338374
Are you orks? Otherwise it won't work.

>> No.19338382

>>19338373
New idea, threaten to break some soulstones if the Farseer doesn't talk to us, then kill her somehow?

>> No.19338388

>>19338379
>Dark Eldar cybernetic
>Conventional cybernetics
Pick one

>> No.19338389

>>19338379

Dark eldar cybernetics are powered by rape, souls, torture, and rape. I'd hardly call that "conventional."

>> No.19338391

>>19338382
That will just get you killed faster. If you want a Farseer to talk to you peacefully, be prepared to kiss some ass.

>> No.19338395

>>19338381
Ok...hire Ork mercenaries, disguise them as Eldar?
Best plan so far

>> No.19338396

Okay okay....so this....farseer is some kind of super-duper future telling guy?
Well I guess the best thing to do is to be unexpected?

I've got it!

A drop pod!

Drop a drop pod on his face, he dodges it? Oh well, now the drop pod opens, and inside?

Nope, not your party!

A captured cultist who's about to turn into a.....

Warp portal!!


A WARP PORTAL!!!!

YAY DAEMONS EVERYWHERE!

THE WORLD FALLS TO CHAOS!

EVERYTHING DIES!!!
INCLUDING THE FARSEER!!!

YAAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!

>> No.19338397

>>19338389
no, they aren't. they're just cybernetics

>> No.19338404

>>19338396
Travel back in time, get SUPA CHARGED KAYOS HORUS to fight her?
Even better than my Ork idea

>> No.19338405

If you want to kill a farseer, you're going to need to make some pacts with some Slaaneshi daemons.

Hey, the game isn't called "Do Not Commit Dark Heresy."

>> No.19338406

>>19338388
what's so unconventional about them? They're simply more advanced? You know that it doesn't mean shit when the Imperium can also pull crazy technology out of its ass for plot purposes.

>> No.19338413

You know, the problem with all this planning is that all plans are essentially useless against a future-seer with the resources that a Farseer has. If the Farseer knows what he’s doing your plans shouldn’t even come close to fruition.

>> No.19338423

>>19338413
Swear alliance to Malal/Malice, then?

>> No.19338424

I think your best bet here would be to get those blanks, or whatever, those people who don't have souls. The only other thing I can think of would be orbital bombardment.

>> No.19338428

>>19338396
Except he'll have precoged this and the world falling into chaos will protect a craftworld and incidentally dick over a hundred human worlds too 200,000 years from now, oh and the farseer will avoid death somehow too because fucking eldar

>> No.19338445

>>19338428
FUCKING ELDAR!!!!!!

>> No.19338462

just blow up the entire planet.

>> No.19338468

>>19338445
I agree, fuck planing, just run at them in the nude with the mark of Slaanesh cut into your skin
That'll show 'em!

>> No.19338469

There is only one way to outdick an eldar farseer... CREEEEEEEEED! OP your path is clear, you must somehow get creed onboard with your mission

>> No.19338480

>>19338469
The guardian was a Baneblade all along!!!

Good plan!

>> No.19338571

Step 1: Lure the Eldar into close combat.
Step 2: Prove the superiority of human genetics.
Step 3: Praise the Emperor for another successful mission.

>> No.19338578

>>19338423
Why? Malal isn't canon and Malice is just some low tier daemon.

>> No.19338593

You're thinking about this wrong. The Farseer's whole thing is knowing what you're going to do. They can look into the future and explore potential "what if he were to do this instead" pathways, since the future is ever-changing based on what happens in the present - and they can remember them all. They can see things that happen on planets they've never been to, and they can see the actions of people they've never met. They literally have an accessible Big Map of Fate and Reality in their heads - any plan based on 'taking them by surprise' is going to fail if the DM is playing them right.

So how do you kill a Farseer?

By making him want to die.

Find out what he cares about enough to die for, and get him to sacrifice himself for its sake. Set up a scenario that will bring doom to his Craftworld unless he puts himself in the way of it - a powerful psychic threat, a temple of Eversor or Culexus assassins, a daemon invasion (if your Inquisitor is radical enough to consider such tactics viable). Depending on location and availability of tools, putting him in a literal no-win situation might be an option - something like forcing him to choose between his Craftworld being attacked by the Imperial Navy or floating into the path of a Tyranid Hivefleet (imagine what being exposed to the Shadow in the Warp 24/7 would do to someone with a Farseer's powers!).

Make him choose his own death. He will know you're responsible for it, and he will die hating you. But he will die just the same.

>> No.19338600

Putting Farseers in DH is like dropping an Imperator titan into a kill team game. Farseers are leaders surrounded by seer councils and Eldar armies. A group of ragtag misfits are actually entirely irrelevant to a farseer, they direct armies and starfleets. A few inquisitorial henchmen are a lunchbreak flex for a striking scorpion exarch.

Also, Eldar look different from humans. Eldar have conversations using only body language. To Eldar a human in a suit of eldar mesh armout is going to look(and smell) like an chimp in people clothes does to humans.

>> No.19338645

>>19338593
Right now we are just shit-tier inquisitorial thugs,we have no way of threatening a whole craftworld.

>> No.19338666

>>19338276
this

Anyone remember the old "Farseer shows up in Necromunda" rules?

They were fun
http://files.sigil.biz/data/nm_02_farseer_yrthrian_mardawn.pdf

If the (randomly chosen) dude he's looking for dies.. you start rolling dice and people's heads start exploding. He also brings along a pair of fucking -Fire Dragons- into combat against the starving murder-hobos.

"overkill" is an understatement

>> No.19338679

Get a Space Marine to kill it for you.

>> No.19338691

How to Kill a Farseer in Dark Heresy:

1. Play as a Cleric

2. Make Fellowship your highest stat

3. Preach the word of the Emperor to the masses, and stay true to the Imperial Creed while burning heretics to prove your faith and devotion

3. Convince the local shrine world that this Farseer is a heretic of the highest magnitude and get a crusade declared on him

4. Let the Emperor do your work for you.

>> No.19338702

>>19338600
Guess someone's never seen an imperial psyker in action, huh?

>> No.19338705

>>19338679
Roight, because Space Marines would love to be the errand boys for hobos (with lasguns) on some backwater planet in the backwater system.

We simply don't have the influence to call on
the Emprahs resources.

>> No.19338706

>>19338691
>two 3's
Derp, I mean 4 & 5.

>> No.19338713

>>19338691
Or, could I convince the Farseer to join the Imperial Cult?

That's worth a try, i'd say!

>> No.19338717

Simple. Do nothing.

Farseers are arrogant and often wrong, he'll make some bullshit prophecy and then go die all on his own, no intervention necessary.

>> No.19338721

>>19338645

Then what do you know about your target, other than his position? What does he care about - or, in grimdark terms, what weaknesses does he have? Does he have a lover, is he especially proud of his abilities, does he have any personal tastes that you could threaten? "Protect my people" was kind of my default assumption, based on his role, but there are other, more personal things you could potentially use.

Find out about your target. What actions has he been involved in? Does he show a preference for manipulating a particular race (say, Ork invasions, such as the Second War for Armageddon) to take care of threats? Does he seem to have a particular protectorate ("keep them away from Maiden World X at all costs")?

>> No.19338728

>>19338705
Use a renegade.

>> No.19338748

>>19338721
The Inquisior jsut said: Here's a Farseer, kill her, don't care how.

We more or less only have the starting equipment, and a looted shurikan luncher (which is useless to us).
I think the GM is just being an asshole, sending us against impossible odds like that

>> No.19338773

Step 1. Get in a ship
Step 2. Get into the warp
Step 3. Shout that the Farseer thinks Khorne is a faggot repetitively and loudly into the warp
Step 4. Wait for news of the Farseer's ass being ravaged by Flesh Hounds.

It's foolproof.

>> No.19338775

>>19338713
Very unlikely, but natural 1s happen. A better chance would be to go with the crusade idea, but instead of focusing on that one farseer, declare their craftworld as the crusade's target. Faith is pretty powerful in the Imperium, and it can drive everyone from the lowliest savant to the High Lords of Terra.

>> No.19338783

>>19338702
You mean those guys who are psychically inferior to a Farseer - or even a Warlock - in every way?

Man, seriously, the shit Eldar psykers do is bananas. In one of the BL books they even bring a bunch of dudes back to life. Eldrad used to make groups of Primaris psykers specially conditioned to prepare for him convulse and die without actually doing anything - just the psychic weight of his presence killed them. Then there's stuff like teleporting people's brains into the Warp, freezing time, creating tangible constructs out of psychic force, etc etc etc.

Fluffseers make Imperial psykers look like snot.

>> No.19338807

No, come on, son. You're so out of your depth the fish have lightbulbs dangling from their heads. You might as well be asking 'how do we kill a Chapter Master' or 'give me a way to destroy a hive fleet'. This is not something you can accomplish with your available resources unless your GM has absolutely no fucking clue what he's doing.

>> No.19338818

>>19338377

What's wrong with Ascension?

>> No.19338824

>>19338807
Seems like that's the case here.

Really though, our GM has his..."episodes" where he's just randomly being an asshole, like right now

>> No.19338848

>>19338824
Then get it over with and suicide charge at the fucker. Either a) TPK and reroll so you can play an actually attainable scenario, b) he breaks out ridiculous deus ex machinas so you can actually achieve it, c) you end up killing a 'Farseer' with the abilities of a barely-trained human psyker, or d) as soon as you get within spitting distance some bullshit setpiece battle unfolds and a DMPC kills the Farseer for you.

Whichever way it unfolds, the problem isn't the farseer, it's the shitty GM.

>> No.19338886

>>19338783
>You mean those guys who are psychically inferior to a Farseer - or even a Warlock - in every way?

Not really, I believe it's actually said in one of the books that very few can reach the heights of power displayed by human psykers.

>> No.19338925

>>19338886
FFG being FFG, really

can't have anything being better than Humans in any way, nor can we?

>> No.19338931

>>19338848
Honestly with the way its been presented in this thread, i get the feeling that the gm of this game is using the farseer to set something up, since no matter what they come up with it can be handwaved away with "precoged lol" then the farseer informs them of something chaos somewhere else etc etc

Because lets face it, thats a very farseer thing to do, get the mon-keighs to beat the fuck out of the chaos so eldar dont die doing it instead.

>> No.19338956

>>19338886
Farseers are the very few. DH psykers aren't the heights.

>> No.19338959

>>19338925

EXCEPT THAT FLUFF IS OLDER THAN FFG BY YEARS.

HUMANS ARE BONFIRES, ELDAR ARE CUTTING TORCHES, PSYCHICALLY SPEAKING.

>> No.19338963

>>19338886
It's also said in the books that Ulthwe has the most powerful psykers in the galaxy. And to be honest, in fluff, the only psykers to have matched Eldar ones (aside from Big E himself) are insane heavily corrupted ones. Even Primaris psykers - the best of the sanctioned - are utterly outclassed.

>> No.19338995

>>19338886
Farseers have technique however, which does mean something when raw power alone just gets you possessed and everyone your now demonically possessed body can get at dead.

>> No.19338996

>>19338886
I'm fairly sure they can, they're just smart enough to not do it so they don't explode into a portal to the warp or just flat out take a craftworld with them, the main difference is they have a shitload more control over their power meaning they can be a lot more delicate with their power and the safe upper limit is a LOT higher than a human psykers.

>> No.19339001

>Even Primaris psykers - the best of the sanctioned - are utterly outclassed.

This, humanity just doesn't have the mental control the Eldar do. They might have the raw power what with alpha psykers being able to destroy planets and whatever, but they can't access that without serious fucking danger in the form of a bloodtide enema.

>> No.19339012

>>19338956
A Farseer has a psy-rating of 12. A low-tier Alpha psyker had a rating of 14. IIRC.

>> No.19339017

>>19338959
It is a pretty recent addition to the fluff, actually. And it's only stated in one or two places, and not at all supported by any of the actual writing.

So we have one or two sources telling us humans are more powerful, and then all the writing showing Eldar actually being more powerful.

>> No.19339020

>>19338886
The books are exaggerating, or are just plain wrong.

Outside of Chaos, Eldar have the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, specifically in Ulthwe (and stated outright like that in the codex in the Ulthwe section)

Anyway, this reminds me of the old Necromunda scenario where there was a Farseer brought in. If the Farseer fails his mission, he basically kills everyone in both gangs who are involved in a huff.

>> No.19339041

>>19339020
>the old Necromunda scenario
it seems it's reminded a few of that; >>19338666

shame the model was such a limited run. It was a great hunk of pewter.

>> No.19339052

>>19339017
>And it's only stated in one or two places, and not at all supported by any of the actual writing.

It kind of is. Space Marine psykers are hideously badass and Alpha are mentioned as being able to casually snap Titans in half or mind controlling whole hives.
Eldar have never really been noted to anything so outrageous.

>> No.19339064

How powerful are Ork Weirdboys in comparison to other psykers? They obviously don't have the control others do, but how do they fair in terms of raw power?

>> No.19339065

>>19339001
This - it always seemed to me that alpha-plus types have failed at being psychics despite their awesome power, because they're delving too deep. They cannot control the shit they do; their psychic powers have collapsed inwards.

Think of an alpha-plus psyker who was both sane and not Chaos as fuck. You can't, most likely because they don't exist.

>> No.19339071

>>19338959
>Craftworld Ulthwé is home to the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.
>Codex Eldar pg. 18

>> No.19339079

>>19339064
Depends on how many Orks they've got with 'em and how their mood is. They don't seem to be able to handle a whole lot before their brain explodes though.

>> No.19339082

>>19339052
Why snap a Titan in half when you can fry the Princeps' brain?

Why control the minds of an entire hive when a few properly placed suggestions in the Planetary Governor's mind will have them doing your work anyways?

>> No.19339097

>>19339071
All the codexes are hideously biased in favour of whatever it's codexing. Everything's the greatest threat to humanity and every race has the most skilled / most numerous warriors. They're in-universe at best and trying to sell whatever race they're of at worst.

>> No.19339100

>>19339082
Doing that is fine and all, but it still indicates lesser strength.

>> No.19339103

>>19339052
Even the most powerful Space Marine psyker hasn't had anything suggesting they can snap a titan in half.

>> No.19339110

>>19339065
Emperor, if only because there isnt a class over alpha plus. But physical gods aside im stumped

>> No.19339114

>>19339100
No, it indicates not being wasteful.

>> No.19339119

>>19339100
It's easier to destroy than create.

A bonesinger can create, therefore he is much more powerful than any of these titan-snapping whippersnappers.

>> No.19339122

There is one Imperial force capable of playing the part of Eldar, OP.

Callidus Assassins, when carefully prepared, can infiltrate groups of Eldar as an Eldar.

They can do this with a few species, in fact. It's part of what they do.

>> No.19339133

>>19339103
Well you've had Njal blowing up whole armies of daemons and Tigirius hacking the hivemind and the Grey Knights taking on the strongest Psykers.

>> No.19339142

>>19339052

Okay, from what I've seen written here, my impression is that human psykers have more potential, eldar psykers have more control.

i.e. on a 1-10 scale, human psykers can be anywhere from 1-10, whereas Eldar psykers are all pretty much 5-8.

Does this seem reasonable?

>> No.19339146

>>19339122 They can do this with a few species, in fact. It's part of what they do.
Including Genestealers. I'm not kidding.

>> No.19339153

GW really needs to stop pushing this 'humans are better psykers than the psyker race' crap. I don't want to field an army from the Sue Faction. Everything about Alpha-class psykers reeks of fanwank.

Eldar are the best psykers there are. It's in their codex, stated in plain and ubiased terms. If there are human psykers that can snap Titans in half, we have to assume there are Eldar psykers who can do it better.

>> No.19339154

>>19339065
Malcador the Sigilite.

Thing is, the Imperium has a policy of purging people on his power level, because they're almost impossible to control and yes, mostly insane.

But when the Emprah was around, it could happen. He was the most powerful NON god psyker we've ever seen.

>> No.19339164

>>19339064
Hard to get a read on it, actually. My recollection is that they are generally most functional as a conduit of psychic energy from other Orks. it's largely dependent on how much Orky psychic energy is around.

Generally, that's a lot.

They are described as being able to do some wicked shit. Old Zogwort, your Ork Psyker special character, is stated to have wiped out an imperal guard company in one blast which also cost him an eye. (or maybe two, I forget. At any rate, he claims to have meant to do that.) Granted, that's the biggest thing he's ever done, but still.

The more regular ones can do stuff like take out tanks with laser eye beams/use lightening to fry squads of marines/teleport and stuff.

>> No.19339179

>>19339153
Deal with it.

>> No.19339181

There's another 2 scales too though so its more like this

power:
human 1-10
eldar 5-8

control:
human 1-5
eldar 5-10

chance of exploding:
human 5-10
eldar 1-4

With things like space marines and shit treading a middle ground between the two

>> No.19339184

>>19339122

Did someone say Inquisiton Wars? Because I really think someone said Inquisition Wars.

>> No.19339195

>>19339153
The Emprah proves otherwise.

Humans can go from less than zero to god, but the Eldar are consistent in their degree of power. They're the best because ALL of them are psykers, and they don't tend to go insane, try to take over 10,000 star systems with mental domination, and get shot in the back by a Callidus assassin.

>> No.19339199

>>19339181
meant to quote
>>19339142

>> No.19339214

>>19339142
>human psykers have more potential

Even "potential" is pushing it. Human psykers have more raw power. The few who are able to actually control that become extremely potent...the rest go insane, blow themselves up, get possessed, or find some way of limiting themselves to avoid a suitably gristly end. Eldar Psykers might not be so grand when it comes to throwing mind bullets around, but they've got more natural control over their abilities and can do far grander things with them in the long term. They also *can* do heniously powerful things with their minds when they choose to. There was an old Necromunda scenario that involved a Farseer hunting for a particular individual. If that individual died, then the Farseer just destroys everything in his anger. No saves, no rolls, no nothing. He mind-nukes the whole area out of spite and kills everyone.

>> No.19339223

Just responding to the OP here:

No, they couldn't. Eldar are taller and slimmer by a significant margin than average humans.

>> No.19339239

>>19339142
Eldar could in theory be capable of the same feats, but they don't have random unchecked population who are willing to risk it.

It's more like: Human population is so much higher you're more likely to have random dudes who explode with power.

Eldar population is lower, so with the same odds or higher you are still less likely to see one; also, the society will tend them more to control, and farsight.

Battle psykers (who do blasting) are Eldar low level psykers. Farseers could have those powers, but the fate manipulation ones are more powerful and potent and they put their energies into those.

Also, here's another thing: Eldar psykers don't interface directly with the Warp, for safety reasons. They use proxies (runes), so they don't use all the power they could use.

>> No.19339244

>>19339146
I think that was a one-time deal, and if I'm remembering right had a paragraph devoted to "what should I do with my shit? If I leave it here they'll know I'm not a genestealer"

>>19339142
not really. Think of it this way;

Humans can go 1-10
Eldar are 8-10

Alpha+ psykers are so absurdly rare even by 40k standards that they're not really conclusive to a general look at things. You can't reach that level with training, it's not the inherent potential of the species.. it's just aberrant mutation that's only possible due to the vast amount (warp-touched) of humans in the galaxy.

>> No.19339254

>>19339181
The Grey Knights are sort of like the human equivalent to the Eldar in terms of power level and consistency.

They're not Alphas, but are usually powerful enough as psykers go. They have perfect control of their abilities, and are incorruptible as long as they have their supply of SoB blood.

Thing is, they're very few in number and incredibly rare. ALL Eldar have good control and power.

>> No.19339261

>>19339195
The Emprah is a giant-soul mass. I'd be hard pressed to even describe him as an actual human being.

Anyhow, do other Imperium players really not find this whole 'yeah we need to make humans the best at everything' shit really fucking annoying? Do none of you find this crap banal and tiresome? I mean for fucks' sake, I like the Imperium, but when writers are actually taking the special traits of other races and giving them to the Imperium shit has gotten way out of control.

>> No.19339271

>>19339195
A soul gestalt older than human civilisation doesn't really count as human for these purposes.

>> No.19339281

>>19339244
>Eldar are 8-10

No way, the average Eldar is not that powerful.

>> No.19339307

>>19339281
Eldar PSYKERS. Just looking at psykers here, not at "regular" folk.

and taking a second look at things, I'd probably change my numbers to;

>Humans: 1-9
>Eldar: 8-10

>> No.19339308

>very few can reach the heights of power displayed by human psykers

Wait, WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA~T?

How long has this been in the fluff? Is this for real? Can someone point me to it?
How the Hell did that happen? What's next, will they say that few daemons can survive the Warp for as long as a Space Marine?
This is the race that replaces their entire TECHNOLOGY with psychic powers, for shit's sake.

>> No.19339311

>>19339261
>Do none of you find this crap banal and tiresome?

HFY kiddies eat that shit up, because they can't stand not being the best at something.

>> No.19339313

Which Dark Heresy book does the Eldar Farseer appear in? There's a pretty shitty Alpha human psyker in DoTDG. So we could do a comparison from there.

>> No.19339327

>>19339133
Those are basically Eldrad level things, but the Eldar have only one named psyker lord/farseer character so you don't get so much written about them.

Though one of the things Eldrad was famous for was beating Abaddon in close combat, so go figure.

>> No.19339332

>>19339308
Um. Actually many of the CSM have been in the warp for 10k years, and survived the whole time.

Meanwhile, most daemons have a lifespan somewhere between "Screeeech!" and "Glurg!"

>> No.19339333

>>19339307
>Eldar PSYKERS

All Eldar are psykers.

>> No.19339356

>>19339313
I believe it's Lure of the Expanse.

Anyone got the cover art in a decent resolution?

>>19339333
alright, smartguy; "Eldar currently on the Path of the Seer"

>> No.19339361

>>19339097
Does anything else say it in a 3rd person omnipresent narrative without a 'they say' or 'it could be that' sort of clause?

>> No.19339362

I've always thought it pretty obvious that the shit about humans having more power is something writers needed to bring in after alpha tier psykers were introduced, in order to explain why the hell you don't see any of these psykers around or why if Eldar are better psykers Farseers aren't an 'I win' button.

Next codex, when they finally have the opportunity to upscale everything and return the previous balance, there'll be shit about how most Farseers regulate themselves because alpha-level shit is bad for the Warp or whatever, and the Eldar equivalents human alphas can crack planets open with their minds but spend most of their time sojourning in the Warp or something.

>> No.19339369

>>19339332
I meant a loyalist marine. Then I remembered Draigo.

Well, shit.

>> No.19339376

>>19339327
>Those are basically Eldrad level things

And Eldrad is the most powerful Eldar psyker. The fact that multiple humans are able to match him should indicate the strength of human psykers.

>> No.19339382

>>19339333
Technically, you could say anything with a soul is a psyker on some level.

>> No.19339407

>>19339362
If the Dark Eldar codex is anything to go by, they'll probably just flat out make Eldar farseers comparable to fucking Culter Dei.

>> No.19339414

>>19339376
That statement is asinine. These are just examples of things people of that level are capable of.

Also, for those it was their greatest feat. For Eldrad, it was Tuesday.

>> No.19339415

>>19339356
>I believe it's Lure of the Expanse.

I believe they also appear in there, but that's Rogue Trader so I'm not sure how power levels would carry between the two games. I'm sure they appeared somewhere in DH too.

>> No.19339422

>>19339362
>next codex
I can't wait, Eldtrich Storm might actually be worth taking!

I want my Farseer to shoot lightning out his ass while blowing people's heads up with his brain, damnit.

>> No.19339437

>>19339414
>Also, for those it was their greatest feat. For Eldrad, it was Tuesday.

This. Don't forger that human psykers - some of the most well-trained, most powerful human psykers around - were flat-out killed by standing nearby Eldrad. That's how powerful he was. He didn't even have to DO anything and groups of Primaris psykers were being mind-blasted by him.

>> No.19339449

>>19339422
Bug-eye Farseer is best Farseer.

>> No.19339455

>>19339422
>Eldtrich Storm might actually be worth taking!

Bump the strength to 6. That's the only change that needs to be made, and it'd start being worth using.

>> No.19339466

>>19339362
>Next codex, when they finally have the opportunity to upscale everything and return the previous balance, there'll be shit about how most Farseers regulate themselves because alpha-level shit is bad for the Warp or whatever, and the Eldar equivalents human alphas can crack planets open with their minds but spend most of their time sojourning in the Warp or something.

Yeah, good luck with that. If the things keep going the way they have, the Eldar will suck in their own book.

>> No.19339482

>>19339449
I'm repairing some damage on mine. Great model, though I'm also fond of the Eye of Terror farseers

>> No.19339487

>>19339414
>That statement is asinine. These are just examples of things people of that level are capable of.

Yes, people of that level. Eldrad is the pinnacle of the Eldar and those Marines are probably pretty close to the pinnacle of humanity. They're at least close.

>Also, for those it was their greatest feat. For Eldrad, it was Tuesday.

Eldrad doesn't really have such impressive feats. he's good at reading the future, but so is Tigirius. Difference is Eldrad died because he couldn't see the future right while Tigirius is right time and time again.

>> No.19339528

I usually hate power creep, but at this point, I’d be entirely fine with an Eldar codex that said their psykers could crush moons and flatten human alphas with a thought. Accompanied with fluff about a single battleforce taking half the Realm of Ultramar.

I’d like to see how everyone would react to a non-Imperium codex having the kind of powerlevel-leap that Imperium codices routinely receive.

>> No.19339538

>>19339487

Eldrad was wrong once and Slaanesh got him.

Tigerface only has to be wrong once too, and chances are something nasty would get him as well.*

*Chances do not take into account Matt Fucking Ward and his magical fail train

>> No.19339541

>>19339487
Eldrad doesn't really have such impressive feats. he's good at reading the future, but so is Tigirius. Difference is Eldrad died because he couldn't see the future right while Tigirius is right time and time again.

Only because Eldrad doesn't have Maternity Ward telling him every time.

>> No.19339548

>>19339487
>Difference is Eldrad died because he couldn't see the future right while Tigirius is right time and time again.

While Orikan is never wrong, ever.
Astromancy > Psykers
suck my metaphorical dick

>> No.19339553

>>19339528 I’d like to see how everyone would react to a non-Imperium codex having the kind of powerlevel-leap that Imperium codices routinely receive.
One can dream. But I think that some high-ups have Space Marines too far up their butts for something like that to happen anytime soon.

>> No.19339559

Fuck yeah, Necrons up in this bitch

>> No.19339562

>>19339538
Tigirius isn't even close to as old, he could develop his powers further, Eldrad is dead.

>> No.19339570

>>19339548
He is wrong, he can just go back in time and change his prophecies.

>> No.19339581

>>19339559
Hell yeah motherfucker!!

>> No.19339588

>>19339538 Eldrad was wrong once and Slaanesh got him.
Eldrad wasn't even wrong. He pretty much knew something was up, but having an entire Chaos god in the way meant he couldn't know what would happen.

>> No.19339599

>>19339562

What I'm hearing is "Eldrad lived for millenia, he was going to be wrong at least once and Tigerface hasn't been around long enough to really matter outside of the Ultrasmurfs"

Eldrad was only ever mortal, y'know.

>> No.19339601

>>19339570
So, still means he can't be wrong because he can make sure he's not.

>> No.19339602

So much Eldar hurtbutt, it's delicious.

>> No.19339605

Think of it more like eating donuts will make you obese.
All Eldar move donuts
Craftworld Eldar eat them very rarely, in moderation.
Exodites are too busy wrestling dinosaurs to crave donuts
Dark Eldar gorge themselves on donuts but they eat so fast all the fat is burned off but if they ever slow down they get fat, so they can't stop eating until the day they choke on a donut they didn't chew enough.

The Eldar tell humans not to eat too many donuts, humans are already getting plump around the midsection. Sometimes they will pop out of nowhere and slap the donuts right outta their hands. Humans do not understand it is for their own good. Sometimes they will do this for the donut you would have eaten, but due to their intervention have not. This gets very confusing.

Orks eat donuts when they want to, but only 'cause they want to. At the end of the day an ork prefers squigs anyways.

Chaos tells you that if it's delicious, it must be good. Chaos will give you all the donuts you want. The goal of Chaos is not to make tasty treats though, but to make you fat.

Tau have no interest in donuts. Maybe they don't have taste buds. It's almost as if they were engineered to resist the sweet temptation of donuts.

Necrons have no tongues. Necrons hate donuts, but they're incapable of getting fat anyways.

>> No.19339634

>>19339570
>go back in time and change his prophecies.

Actually he goes back in time to make sure his prophecies become true, he doesn't change what he said.

>> No.19339638

>>19339599
Yeah, point is Tigger already matches him for prophetic shit but he's barely a fraction of his age. Eldrad was hardly all that great early on and Tigirius can keep on working at it.

>> No.19339641

The point of the Imperium isn’t supposed to be that humans really are the blessed best at everything saviour race. It’s that in reality they’re a bunch of hideously ignorant fools who got to where they are by mostly chance and are fighting a futile battle against their rapidly approaching collapse and extinction. They’re a parody of every fascist regime ever – nothing they believe to be special about themselves is real, and they have no chance of actually attaining the ridiculous destiny they’ve assigned themselves.

All this new fluff is a testament to the danger of creative staff that are more fanboy than writer.

>> No.19339662

>>19339641
>The point of the Imperium isn’t supposed to be that humans really are the blessed best at everything saviour race.
Yeah well that's what it is these days.

>> No.19339668

>>19339641
The Emperor's goal was to have a peaceful transition from humanity to psychic master race though.

>> No.19339680

>>19339641 All this new fluff is a testament to the danger of creative staff that are more fanboy than writer.
That's the best description I've heard yet.

>> No.19339685

The Eldar are basically biological weapons designed by the Old Ones to rape everything with warp power.

Arguing that human psykers are more powerful is just stupid.

>> No.19339699

>>19339668
Shoulda, woulda, coulda

>> No.19339710

>>19339685
The warp was different then. Humans evolved with it in it's current form and are also from Old One stock.

>> No.19339714

>>19339638

We don't know exactly how old Eldrad was. What we do know of him is that he was worth the attentions of both the Emperor and his Primarchs. You can hardly compare Tigerface to these bad boys, who certainly considered Eldrad a threat of some indeterminate size.

What we do know is that for at least 10,000 years Eldrad was one of the greatest psykers alive, and certainly the greatest seer.

When Tigerface goes on to be the greatest seer in Warhammer 50k, then you'll be right.

>> No.19339718

>>19339668
But they weren't always THE BESSTTSTS EVERR.

When that fluff was introduced (and, yes, even that was added in at some point) humanity had the potential to be 'a psychic race'. Not THE BEST PSYKERS EVER. Not even an 'as good as Eldar' psychic race. They just had the poential to be psykers.

>> No.19339723

>>19339710
Insomuch as they evolved from creatures created by the Old Ones. The Orks and Eldar were specifically designed to be soldiers in the war against the Necrons.

>> No.19339734

>>19336642
Yes, but they don;t get any of the benefits Eldar do.
Eldar Runearmor is stated out in Rogue Trader, but it's just the same as Carapace unless an Eldar is wearing it, in which case it gets MASSIVE bonuses. Since all Eldar are psykers to an extent, only they can activate these bonuses. Human Psykers can't though.

>> No.19339736

>>19339662

Even though it's implied that humanity as it stands now might actually be genetically inferior to the humanity of the Dark Age of Technology?

Silly GW.

>> No.19339740

>>19339710
>and are also from Old One stock.

Source? Pretty sure humans are naturally evolved or a product of C'tan gene experiments on monkeys.

>> No.19339753

>>19339740

The only one I can think of is Xenology.

And I ain't gonna start the shitstorm that follows when people cite Xenology.

>> No.19339756

Back in the 2nd edition, Eldar wore "mesh armour", Space Chainmail that could be woven into outwardly ordinary clothing. This was also available to human armies (you could even find it in Necromunda), so in principle yes.

>> No.19339765

>>19339487
Tigurius has to face off a whole Chaos God once to make any comparison viable.
Until then, "nuh-huh."

>> No.19339784

>>19339714
>We don't know exactly how old Eldrad was. What we do know of him is that he was worth the attentions of both the Emperor and his Primarchs.

He also couldn't see Fulgrim's corruption when he was right next to him.

>You can hardly compare Tigerface to these bad boys

Why not? He's chief librarian of the most renowned chapter of Space Marines and potentially the greatest psyker in the Imperium. The primarches met with less.

Eldrad was great, and was good at just as planned till near the end, but that doesn't mean Tigirius couldn't best him a psychic duel.

>> No.19339797

>>19339765

Yeah Eldrad was essentially nabbed by Slaanesh when he let his guard down at the worst possible moment, all because of a chance whose outcome he couldn't really have foreseen, taken as a desperate action to stop Abaddon curbstomping the Cadian Gate.

When Tigerface does something like that and comes out on top, then he'll be the better dude.

>> No.19339816

>>19339784


>the most renowned chapter of Space Marines

Go to bed, Matt.

>> No.19339819

>>19339740
Codex Necrons, 3e. The Old Ones created them as 'comical tree-beasts' or some such. But evolution took over from there. All the potential is there.

>>19339723
>Insomuch as they evolved from creatures created by the Old Ones. The Orks and Eldar were specifically designed to be soldiers in the war against the Necrons.

Maybe, but the warp was calm in that period, now it is violent and humans evolved in those conditions, it makes sense that they would be more suited to wielding it.

>> No.19339826

>>19339816
Wut. Ultras have been the greatest since second edition.

>> No.19339836

>>19339784
>but that doesn't mean Tigirius couldn't best him a psychic duel

No, the game's thematic integrity demands that Tigirius lose. Eldar are the psyker race. If their special character psyker is not the best psyker in the canon, there is something wrong.

>> No.19339843

Ok, just have to ask: Who is Tigerface?

>> No.19339854

>>19339836
>No, the game's thematic integrity demands that Tigirius lose.

No.

>Eldar are the psyker race. If their special character psyker is not the best psyker in the canon, there is something wrong.

Not really since human psykers are said to have more power.

>> No.19339868

>>19339843
Chief Librarian Varro Tigurius.

>> No.19339879

>>19339819
>humans evolved in those conditions, it makes sense that they would be more suited to wielding it
How does it? They very evidently didn't evolve to wield it on a daily basis.
It makes sense that they evolved in some manner to better survive the turbulent Warp. Hence, smaller, less tasty souls. Which means smaller Warp presense, which pretty directly implies weaker warp link - weaker powers.

On average, that is.

>> No.19339886

>>19339854
power is nothing without control, and this the main difference between farseers and human psykers

>> No.19339891

>The sheer accuracy of his predictions about the movement and intents of the Great Devourer have led many to believe that Tigurius has managed to penetrate the Hive Mind itself, something only a psyker as powerful as the Emperor could withstand without going insane. If this is true, and the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines really has tapped into the Hive Mind, it would make him the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium, second only to the Immortal God Emperor himself.

U mad Eldar

>> No.19339895

>>19339641
The GEOM disagrees with you. The Eldar empire was destroyed creating just one Chaos God. The GEOM matches all four of them.

>> No.19339908

>>19339854
Do you not understand what’s being said here?

Everything about human psykers being better than Eldar ones is retarded. You do not make races with specific skillsets and then just give the skills of all the others to one of them. If Eldar do not have the most powerful psykers in the setting they might as well be squatted, because they have lost their defining trait.

>> No.19339921

>>19339908

Yes you do. That's how Space Marines win.

>> No.19339922

>>19339895
GEOM isn't a single human fucking soul.

A single Eldar soul got to near his levels.
Ta-dah.

>> No.19339923

Just wondering, whats is the problem with a Humanity Fuck Yeah outlook?
Don't tell me some of you kids identify as Eldar or something...

>> No.19339935

>>19339922
Eldrad has never even remotely approached the GEOM's levels of psychic power
No, my good sir, no.
Orders of magnitude out

>> No.19339949

>>19339923
>whats is the problem with a Humanity Fuck Yeah

1. It's retarded.
2. It's not what 40K is about. See >>19339641

I guess there's no problem with this kind of fluff so long as you're okay with rolling around in your own shit and semen, but some of us have standards.

>> No.19339965

>>19339935
Da Emprah isn't human. Humans don't have gestalt-souls, they aren't immortal, and they don't have psychic powers.

>> No.19339967

>>19339879
>How does it?

It's been part of their environment. The Warp is now a gun, Eldar have hooves to manipulate it while mankind evolved hands.

>They very evidently didn't evolve to wield it on a daily basis.

Not yet, but they're fast approaching psychic apotheosis. The few mutants around now merely heralding what's to come.

>It makes sense that they evolved in some manner to better survive the turbulent Warp. Hence, smaller, less tasty souls. Which means smaller Warp presense, which pretty directly implies weaker warp link - weaker powers.

They started as monkeys, there souls and power have been growing larger since then, and unlike the Eldar mankind doesn't seem to slow.

>On average, that is.

Yes, for now, most humans aren't proper psykers, but psychic potential amongst the species is really high.

>> No.19339975

>>19339154
You mentioning him reminded me.

Why did the emprah create a human section of the webway if all humans use is warp travel?

>> No.19339978

>>19339923
This isn't even a "Humanity Fuck Yeah outlook". This is "humans have more tentacles than illithids just 'cause", where humans don't even fucking need those tentacles to be human?
Did your parents shelter you so much that you cannot imagine a genuine human existence without the free magic stuffs?

>> No.19339981

>>19339923

The problem is that the overall theme of humans in 40k is "on the downfall." Like, a few moments of "fuck yeah" now and again is fine and refreshing, but it seems to be making up all of the newer fluff on the Imperials, which is undermining the grimdarkness.

>> No.19339985

>>19339949
See, you just act a bit supermad fellow.
It comes across as you wanting to be some sort of super special snowflake space elf yourself.
WH40K is about a lot of things, and to some extent, yes, one of them is indeed Humanity Fuck Yeah
With lashings of Humanity Fuck No due to their dumbassery and short-sightedness.
Chill out man

>> No.19339990

>>19339311
You understand HFY about as well as most of the shitty authors of it.

>> No.19339991

>>19339923

Making the other races more powerful is what HFY is all about.

Would you rather watch a guy kick a starving puppy to death, or watch him wrestle a bear?

>> No.19340006

>>19339975
Because webway transport is much faster and more reliable.
Its one of the few things that keep eldar alive

>> No.19340024

>>19339991
It's about humans not being shit at everything. Which some idiots construe as DURR HUMANS MUST BE AWESUM AT ERRYTHING and then you get the shitty works of it.

>> No.19340028

>>19339923
Because it makes for a boring story.

I personally think HFY is a misguided response to the tendency to cast humans as the "jack of all trades" species/race in most settings.

Because let's be fair now, humans aren't really portrayed as weak or helpless. Even if they're physically or technologically inferior to other species, because they're the protagonists they win anyways. Maybe through guile. Or moral superiority. There is always something that makes humans, in the end, better.

But clearly there is something out there that isn't quite sitting right with a lot of people. And while I don't like HFY, I think this feeling of discontent is very much real and justified.

Y'see the problem, as I mentioned before, is that people would like a clear identity. Not unlike nations or cultures today (note, for example, how offended we Canadians get when people say that we have no culture, that we're just "part of America").

So the thing is, when humans get portrayed either as the all-around guy (usually in fantasy) or inconsistently (usually in sci-fi), it often gets people the feeling of "what the fuck are we supposed to be." Humanity Fuck Yeah generally tries to say what we are. The problem is that all it does is replicate the initial conundrum. There are two kinds of HFY, I've found. There's the "humanity as a kind-hearted, brave, or otherwise touching species that inspires a certain sense of wonder or love in the aliens they meet" (such as that story with the little alien and the cigar) and there's the "humanity as the physically or technologically superior powerhouse" story.

>> No.19340030

Guys, you realise that Humanity Fuck Yeah done right is exactly what DAN MOTHER FUCKING ABNETT does right?
You know... the Black Library's best author...
Humanity is cool, but only because it's hitting way above its weight a lot of the time in 40k

>> No.19340042

>>19339908
Stop being so mad. Humans can have more raw power, so what? Eldar can still have their whole elegant back flippery and beauty psykers while humans can have pic related.

>> No.19340044

>>19339985
>It comes across as you wanting to be some sort of super special snowflake space elf yourself.

I'm an Imperium player. Salamanders and Krieg.

I'm simply tired of watching what used to be actual interesting fluff degrade into masturbatory shit. It is entirely retarded to make humans better psykers than 'the psyker race'. It's just dumb. It's like making humans as tough as orks, or as numerous and adaptive as Tyranids.

>> No.19340046

>>19340006
But no human has ever used it. He needn't keep the human portion of the webway up. Just use the souls he's given to reconstitute his body or something.
Let the daemon's screw up the eldar and necrons, build up power and then send in the gaurd.

>> No.19340049

The first kind of a story is normal science fiction. That sort of HFY has nothing to distinguish it from regular science fiction except... well, nothing, actually. You find it all the time. Stephen Baxter's story "The Sun-People" for example. And I like those sorts of stories, personally, I think they're great and you should keep writing them, those of you who do. But HFY is an inappropriate label for them, because they're not HFY, they're just the traditional way of portraying humans in science fiction.

The other kind of story... you're basically swapping aliens and humans from what you see as their traditional "alien strong, human weak, human overcomes alien." The problem is that a story of the powerful or terrifying humans crushing an alien species is boring. Why? Because the traditional story usually goes that the humans win in spite of overwhelming odds. Whereas in this sort of HFY, the humans just... win. Even when the aliens, being the underdogs, ought to be the ones who triumph. It's boring. The only way this sort of story could be effective is if it focused on the aliens and told a sad story of their fall, but no, these stories are always human protagonist.

fieldtoolong I guess my point is that there is no way to solve the conundrum easily, because what humans are, their identity, requires another sapient species to compare them to. How humans appear will always depend on the species a setting is populated with. There is no consistent identity. But I will say this, when you DO pick a particular trait to emphasize, find one that's somewhat logical. Like humans' superb endurance. And when you write the story, don't make the story based around that trait. Come up with a story that's good in its own right and slip the trait in there somewhere. Make it a minor plot point, not a major one. I believe you'll come up with a more enjoyable story that way.

>> No.19340058

>>19340049
I think moot must have reduced the post size limit because I had to trim that copy pasta down.

>> No.19340060

>>19339975
Webway travel is way better.

>> No.19340066

>>19339985
Not the guy youre responding to, but:
The psyker and technological prowess was one of the things that made me choose Eldar as my faction in WH40k, if they take that away they take away they remove what was for a very long time the specialization of the faction.
Its like they would retcon orks that they dont need anymore dakka because humies have more dakka and they cant out dakka them so they will use special tactics instead

>> No.19340068

>>19340028
That's because you are an idiot. Before HFY, humanity is always shown to be worse at everything than every other species we imagined. HFY is the logical opposite of that.

>> No.19340071

>>19339854
>Not really since human psykers are said to have more power.
Where? I know about the quote in Rogue Trader that people often cite, but that's not what it says. If there's another, enlighten me.

>> No.19340075

>>19340046
He's still got a big ass hole in reality on Terra from which daemons could come through.

>> No.19340084

>>19339308
Quite some time, my good man.

Humans have highest peaks, but our baseline is the second lowest.

Tau are weaker.
Orks are stronger.
Nids are stronger.
Eldar are stronger.

However, the very best they can produce are no where near close to the strength of our ultra-rare aberrant.

>> No.19340088

>>19340060
But no human ever uses the human built portion of the webway. It's a wasted effort. it may be better, but he's spent 10 thousand years, eating the souls of thousands of pyskers each day to keep a derelict open.

>> No.19340089

>>19340068
>Before HFY, humanity is always shown to be worse at everything than every other species we imagined.
I guess you never watched Star Trek, huh?

>> No.19340095

>>19339967
>hooves, hands
Nice analogy for poetry, not so much for logic.
One could revoke it with intelligent design rhetoric in two steps. Warp has changed, but the mechanic of accessing it hasn't. Eldar were given the instrument to access warp right off the bat. Humans have been scratchbuilding the instrument to access warp without any knowledge and guidance. Which of the two instruments will be better at its primary purpose?
>mutants
Note your usage of the term. Not human yet, which is what we're about.
>but psychic potential amongst the species is really high.
Absolutely, and even the Eldar codex agrees with you. But you can't strip the race of the flavor with just the POTENTIAL of the other race. Humanity isn't there yet is what it says.

>> No.19340102

>>19340089
Humans, with the exception of the crew of the Enterprise, were still worse than everyone at everything.

>> No.19340112

>>19340049

Have you read the HFY story where the big moment was just a human humming to himself while loading a gun and firing. That one really worked because it was told from the perspective of a snobbish alien and the human was an underdog, however the big moment wasn't him doing anything particularly badass or amazing, it was just him running on autopilot and not thinking. I also liked the last line of "That is what being a human means to me."

>> No.19340115

But what people are complaining about in this thread is not the humans in 40K are superior because of their guile and certainly not their morality. It's because of them being the strongest in every possible field because they can shout the loudest/whatever, which in the end just makes the story less interesting because they're not up against impossible odds, grimdark, single light in the darkness etc.

>> No.19340116

>>19340102
Yeah, nah. Humans almost always won out against any other species, usually due to technological advantage.

>> No.19340125

>>19340102
I don't think you remember Klingons before they went on that HONOR trip. And Amok Time showed that humans are better than vulcans at dealing with PMS

>> No.19340142

>>19340068
>Before HFY, humanity is always shown to be worse at everything than every other species we imagined.

Star Wars: All important characters are human, few if any aliens actually have anything physically that makes them outright superior. Humans dominate politically and socially, bot during Republic and Imperial rule.

Star Trek: Humans are the most forward-thinking species in the setting, among the most technologically potent, among the most socially advanced, and are the glue that holds together the rest of the species. Also, all the most important characters are humans.

>> No.19340153

Won't be easier to kill an ordinary human clown and stole his clothes?

>> No.19340154

>>19340142
The humans in that setting were only more numerous than everyone else, they weren't actually better at anything.

>> No.19340155

>>19340084
>Quite some time, my good man.
Cool. Give me a quote.

>> No.19340195

>>19340154
SW makes few races exceptionally better at anything without a serious drawback elsewhere. But humans are still dominant anyway.

ST humans are simply some of the best people around. They have better shit than almost everyone, they coordinate the best, they lead the best, and if anyone has anything better than they do they get better at that thing soon enough. Again, most of the races with exaggerated strengths also have exaggerated flaws - i.e. Klingons are strong but fucking retarded and not among the most advanced races. Humans on the other hand, are... well... you know how in most sci-fi, there's some utopian race with perfect values and amazing tech and great wisom? That's humanity in ST.

>> No.19340196

>>19340095
>Nice analogy for poetry, not so much for logic.

How about, Eldar are freshwater fish who suddenly find themselves in saltwater, will they perform better than the saltwater fish in their new habitat?

>Warp has changed, but the mechanic of accessing it hasn't. Eldar were given the instrument to access warp right off the bat. Humans have been scratchbuilding the instrument to access warp without any knowledge and guidance. Which of the two instruments will be better at its primary purpose?

It depends, if the Eldar really were just thrown together to fight the Necrons, then they might not perfectly up to scratch.
Conversely as Liber Slaanesh suggest, and they were not created just to fight Necrons then there's no reasons for the Old Ones to make them psychic rape machines.
Or the Old Ones simply limited them for whatever reason.

>Note your usage of the term. Not human yet, which is what we're about.

Mutants are human though, you are a mutant, I am a mutant. Nothing so drastic as suddenly psychic powers or tentacles, but still mutants.

>Absolutely, and even the Eldar codex agrees with you. But you can't strip the race of the flavor with just the POTENTIAL of the other race. Humanity isn't there yet is what it says.

Yes the whole of humanity isn't there yet, but some human psykers certainly show off incredible potential. The Eldar haven't be stripped of flavour, the average human isn't a psychic, they don't have lots of psychic tech around.

>> No.19340233

>>19339548
>>19339548

>> No.19340256

>>19339836
By that argument, Chaos Marines > Space Marines

>> No.19340296

>>19340196
>The Eldar haven't be stripped of flavour

To an extent they have. Having insane abberants of great psychic power around in the fluff is alright, but when you bring that into the arena of fluff more closely tied to the game, you're kinda slapping Eldar players in the face.

It is pretty underwhelming for the race known for its psychic power to not have the most powerful psyker special character. Think of it as much like that bit of fluff where Thunderhawk gunships are outmanoeuvring Eldar fighter craft.

What I'm saying is that alpha-plus psykers should be rare, insane abberants, impossible to control and more like natural disasters than people. They shouldn't be identified as part of the Imperium. In the actual sphere of the Imperium as a faction there shouldn't be psykers better than the best Eldar ones, and there certainly shouldn't be any that actually appear as special characters. The 'humans are not there yet' part should be a lot more prominent than the 'they have potential' part.

>> No.19340347

>>19340196
But then Warp is not water and Eldar are not fish. Boom!

>It depends
The point here was that the Eldar are very evidently created with inbuilt psychic abilities. That in itself is what matters more to the argument - since both species are allowed genetic variation, Eldar evidently can produce a strong outlying individual. But as they are all already granted psychic powers, they have a large pool of psykers.
>the line under the third greentext
I agree with the points that you're raising, but there's still something get mad at. Psychic powers are not a genetic disease which just sets in once and that's it, they are very variable. Yes, the humanity is progressing that way in general, but you positively CANNOT expect mutants to be instantly shat out with GEOM-powers, because vast potential does not directly imply that you can tap into the whole of it at once. Heck, even you called them "heralds" of the new humans, not actual specimens. Pushing the boundaries of your race is cool. Knowing that that boundary can be pushed even farther is cool. Going "few Eldar can get as good as humans" is not.
I'm sorry for the sloppy quoting and typing, my stupid Android went bananas.

>> No.19340389

>>19340296
>Think of it as much like that bit of fluff where Thunderhawk gunships are outmanoeuvring Eldar fighter craft.
Oh lawl, is this real? Thank God I quit 40k.

>> No.19340400

>>19340389
Yeah, it's real. One of Ward's prized rants about how amazing his favourite army is.

>> No.19340414

>>19340296
>Think of it as much like that bit of fluff where Thunderhawk gunships are outmanoeuvring Eldar fighter craft.
Source?

>> No.19340427

>>19340414
Codex Space Marines.

>> No.19340459

>>19340427
>Thunderhawks outmanoeuvring Eldar fighters

>"Thunderhawk Gunships roared across the skies, cannon and missile searching for elusive and agile Eldar Nightwings."

>> No.19340476

>>19340347
>But then Warp is not water and Eldar are not fish. Boom!

You're right of course, the warp is much more random, it might have just decided that Eldar smell and changed it's properties so that humans could use it better.

>The point here was that the Eldar are very evidently created with inbuilt psychic abilities. That in itself is what matters more to the argument - since both species are allowed genetic variation, Eldar evidently can produce a strong outlying individual. But as they are all already granted psychic powers, they have a large pool of psykers.

But none of that means humans cannot and will not put out stronger psykers.

>I agree with the points that you're raising, but there's still something get mad at. Psychic powers are not a genetic disease which just sets in once and that's it, they are very variable. Yes, the humanity is progressing that way in general, but you positively CANNOT expect mutants to be instantly shat out with GEOM-powers, because vast potential does not directly imply that you can tap into the whole of it at once. Heck, even you called them "heralds" of the new humans, not actual specimens. Pushing the boundaries of your race is cool. Knowing that that boundary can be pushed even farther is cool. Going "few Eldar can get as good as humans" is not.

They're perhaps not going to be Emprah tier, but no Eldar has ever been that powerful either as far as we know.

>>19340296
Alphas are rare, but the fact is most of the presumably Alpha tier individuals appear as Space Marine Librarians. And it makes sense, Space Marine are powerful warriors, being a powerful psyker will help you be a powerful warrior that sort of thing.
Besides, Ward's introducing psychic mastery levels, presumably Eldar characters will be high on that.

>> No.19340524

>>19340459
A Thunderhawk has no right sharing airspace with an Eldar Nightwing, much less actively trying to engage one. A Thunderhawk is basically a B-17 and a Nightwing is basically a German fighter of your choice.

>> No.19340554

>>19340476
>And it makes sense

Not really. From both a fluff and a game design standpoint it's stilly.

1. Alphas are almost always unstable, why would you recruit from unstable stock? There can't possibly be enough stable alphas to provide every Chapter with even one Librarian, considering how rare they're supposed to be and how incredibly insane the overwhelming majority of them are.
2. Giving any race but 'the psyker race' the most powerful psykers in the game is contrary to designing well-balanced and interesting factions. As has been said, alphas should be insane and unusable, demonstrating that mankind has potential but has not yet reached it.

>> No.19340691

>>19340554
>Alphas are almost always unstable, why would you recruit from unstable stock?

You would recruit the stable ones, the fact they were stable with such power would show they had great will, which is another useful trait for Space Marines.

>There can't possibly be enough stable alphas to provide every Chapter with even one Librarian, considering how rare they're supposed to be and how incredibly insane the overwhelming majority of them are.

Yes, it's not every chapter, but the super powerful human psykers we are likely to see on the table top are most likely to be Librarians, often chiefs.

>Giving any race but 'the psyker race' the most powerful psykers in the game is contrary to designing well-balanced and interesting factions.

That's not a guarantee either, game rules don't always reflect the fluff very well. We know Ward is putting in psyker mastery levels, and if Pancake is anything to go by it suggest that Eldar and Tzeentch things will be getting the most levels.

>As has been said, alphas should be insane and unusable, demonstrating that mankind has potential but has not yet reached it.

There must be some hope for mankind, the psychic apotheosis is supposed to either save or destroy it. There is very little saving going on as most psykers are walking disaster zones, but as always there are some very useful ones.

>> No.19340774

>ITT ppl who don't know that eldrad is still alive

>> No.19340783

>>19340691
>That's not a guarantee either, game rules don't always reflect the fluff very well.

I wasn't actually speaking mechanically. I was saying that the inner circle of fluff immediately relevant to the game should not disrupt its thematic balance. You don't introduce one race as 'the most powerful psykers in the galaxy', make psychic power their defining trait, and then make it so that the psychic characters of another race are more potent.

This is why alphas should be insane walking disasters at the current time. They don't rob another race of its defining trait that way, and they show that humanity is awakening to its potential but has not yet gotten a true grasp upon it. The fact that they exist provides hope; the fact that they're currently insane monsters makes that hope a distant one. As it should be - Grim Darkness etc.

>> No.19340835

well considering some books I read, An armor of an aspect warrior choses his bearer, not otherway round.

Adding, only a VERY slender female human might fit into an eldar armor, but it might be better for them to wear bodygloves like those of the assassins cult

>> No.19340873

>>19340783
Psykers really aren't the Eldars defining trait on the table, they've always been more on par with the battle psykers of the others. Different in that they seem more support based where as the likes of Marine powers are usually just nukes.
Grey Knights are the psykers everywhere army.

>This is why alphas should be insane walking disasters at the current time. They don't rob another race of its defining trait that way, and they show that humanity is awakening to its potential but has not yet gotten a true grasp upon it. The fact that they exist provides hope; the fact that they're currently insane monsters makes that hope a distant one. As it should be - Grim Darkness etc.

Their existence as mountains of psychic rape provides no hope at all left on it's own, there needs to be some control shown.

>> No.19340900

>>19340783
The thing is that there are several things which, taken in context, can explain this phenomenon:

1) Although the Eldar are powerful psykers, their whole race was engineered by the Old Ones to have a certain level of average psyker potential. It is entirely possible, therefore, that though they have great power, it is stuck at the same level as it was millenia ago when the Eldar were born.

2) Humans evolved those powers naturally, and as such the advent of more and more powerful psykers is the process of natural evolution testing the bounds of effective psychic abilities. A majority of alpha levels are, in-fact, walking disasters, there will almost assuredly be exceptions due to the sheer TRILLIONS of humans in the galaxy. They are the exception but, with the numbers of mankind as they are, it is still possible to have a decent number of stable Alpha Psykers, though it's worth noting that most psykers which Humans use for combat purposes are beta level, with young ones being herded out to the Space Marine Chapters and elder ones being turned over to the various Sanctioned Psyker Corps.

3) Much of their power is not used on the tabletop, as many of the surviving Eldar are VERY wary of the Warp because Slaneesh thinks their souls are the most delicious EVER. They often reflect this by not only avoiding their full potential, but they also hinder the full potential by holding their emotions on a strong leash, limiting their natural Warp connection and thus what powers they can use.

>> No.19340961

>>19340873
The fact that they're psykers is their defining trait in their fluff, however. The Eldar codex tells new players 'this here is the psychic race, they're all psychic, all their stuff is psychic, and they're the best at being psychic. Psychic psychic psychic'.

Then this peripheral fluff retcons that into 'actually another race has the best psykers'. This is one of the worst design choices for a game setting I've ever seen. It completely negates what's special about one race and just hands it over to another.

>> No.19340973

Space Marines Psykers (SM) - modified humans with the most powerful human - Emperor... which happened to have crappy precog powers (his is just raw might) and is so few Libarians that it shouldnt matter except in novels.

Normal Human Psykers (Imperal Guard) - shot and killed if they display powers even near an Alpha class.

Eldar Psykers - in every way beats any Human Psykers, and the best is around the SM level or better


Just to put it into context... Eldar still beats everyone... and fluff is centered around SM because "everyone loves SM" type of genre.

>> No.19340995

>>19340961
>psychic psychic psychic bendy spoons

>> No.19341004

>>19340961
Could be worse.
could be that all the cool rule mechanics that let a race play as its different fluff factions was removed, or even that all that races special mechanics that made them play differently to every other race were either made useless in the meta game of handed out to every other faction for no real reason. Or even that the most powerful combat character in a races fluff is relegated to being the worf for the rest of the galaxy...

oh wait...

>> No.19341022

>>19340900
Just noting, an artificial species can still evolve as long as it can breed. Natural selection a magic force that can be switched off. If you reproduce, the offspring with the best traits will be more successful, and their traits will be carried on.

If humans can evolve better psykers, so can eldar. The fact is, some Eldar are better psykers than others, and as they are more likely to be successful they will pass this trait on, and it will become more pronounced as the ages pass.

Evolution can't explain humans suddenly being better psykers. All species evolve.

>> No.19341037

>>19341022
Meant to say 'Natural selection ISN'T a magic force that can be switched off'.

>> No.19341042

>>19340524
A nightwing would be more similar to a Korea-era, or possibly Vietnam-era jet fighter. A B-17 not restricted to a bombing formation, especially the later models which traded bomb capacity for more guns, can maneuver to give its gunners an optimal firing position.

Its easy to forget that bombers were usually locked in a formation and fighters attacks in swarms to overwhelm gunners.

>> No.19341043

>>19341022
However, it could well be that the Old Ones, with their Warp-Tech, made the Eldar Genetic code exceptionally stable such that mutation is HIGHLY unlikely

>> No.19341045

>>19340961
They're not 'the' psychic race though, they're a psychic race, albeit the only playable one where everybody is supposed to be a psyker. They're also supposed to be more finesse, like the rest of Eldar in general than the brute human strength of Marines and Guard-guns.

>> No.19341068

>>19341022
Xenology noted that the Eldar apparently haven't changed much.

>> No.19341075

>>19341042
The point was: unless the Eldar pilot was retarded, he's going to gun down the Thunderhawk.

>> No.19341092

>>19341045
They really are ‘the’ psychic race. They're not the only psychic race, but they're the race most defined by their psychic prowess.

All their technology is psychic. All of them are psychic. Their codex states that they have the best psykers in the setting. Everything about them is ‘psychic’. You can’t read two lines of the Eldar codex without hitting something like ‘psychically-reactive plasteel’ or ‘psychically active wraithbone’ or ‘unparalleled psykers’ or 'psychically attuned mechanisms'. Making another race better psykers really does devalue them thematically.

>> No.19341094

>>19341068
Xenology is also pants on head retarded.

>> No.19341139

>>19341043
Unlikely, since we know Eldar vary, and we know their psychic talent varies.

Also, another thing about evolution, it can't really explain why humanity would suddenly develop godpsykers out of nowhere. Shit doesn't just fly ahead like that. Evolution is a step-by-tiny-step process.

>> No.19341146

>>19341094
The "Tau" there also didn't have hooves, so there's that

>> No.19341160

>>19341092
They are a dying race so it's fitting in that respect. But still, the powerful psykers that show up in the game usually belong super human, super elite Space Marines.

>> No.19341177

>>19341139
But it's mentioned in the fluff, particularly in regard to the origins of the Emperor, that psykers have existed in various forms throughout history.

ALSO, since the Eldar are so long-lived, it's probable that they have had less of an evolutionary change than humans due to a much longer life-cycle. Longer gaps between each generation than humans(more on the order of 100+ years than the sociological 30 for humans) means less variance over a longer period.

>> No.19341194

>>19341075
Yeah, I figured. Eldar have massive tech advantage over the Imperium. If they did not, that stinking piece of Ward lit would be logical, because a single Messerschmidt by itself is just a speed bump to a pissed off B-17 because they are pretty equal on technology.

>> No.19341197

>>19341160
They’re a dying race… who are all about being psychic and having psychic stuff and being the best psykers.

It doesn’t matter which other race gets the better psykers. When you design a race around the core of ‘they’re really really psychic, more psychic than anyone else’, you don’t make your other races better than them at this defining trait. You wouldn’t make a faction that isn’t Chaos that has better daemons, would you?

>> No.19341215

>>19341160
>They are a dying race so it's fitting in that respect.

No, it's not. The nature of the army as a small, elite force that has to recruit a civilian militia and force the souls of their dead to fight over and over again in order to fight its battles demonstrates that they're a dying race.

Having their one, big advantage actually turn out to be weaker than the equivalent put forward by their enemies just makes one wonder why, exactly, anyone would want to play them.

>> No.19341217

>>19341197
Sure you do, if you're writing fan fiction. Which is basically what 40k has become. I'm not saying this is new, it's just that's how it's worked out.

>> No.19341218

>Eldar fighting Tau

Da phuck?

The Eldar have very close relations with the Tau. Why would they fight?

>> No.19341233

>>19341218
They do? As I understand they don't see eye to eye very often but don't hate each other.

Better relations than with the imperium maybe but that's not saying much.

>> No.19341235

>>19341218
To save a single Eldar life.

What, you don't think the Eldar consider the entire Tau race anything other than entirely expendable primitives, do you?

>> No.19341238

>>19341218
Because it suits whatever "grand scheme" some Eldar concocted for the day. Eldar have proven over and over that, just because you're allies, doesn't mean that they won't screw you over in a heartbeat to get ahead

>> No.19341250

>>19341215
>>19341197
They're dying out, fading from the universe, they're being surpassed and left in the dust. I think it fits, you may not like it but that's how it goes for now.

>> No.19341254

>>19341177
Yeah, but you don't go from "yeah they can read people's minds" to "your planet is now my mindslave". Most importantly, you don't do that without links. Realistically, since psykers are rounded up and I'd imagine sterilized by the Imperium, there shouldn't be any alpha class psykers in the galaxy. Your ancestors need to have the trait for you to build on it. Alpha class psykers should have lineages absolutely cluttered with psykers. GW cannot into evolution.

Also, longer life-cycles does not mean less generations. Nothing stopping you from having kids whenever you want.

>> No.19341276

>>19341233
The Eldar see the Tau as their successors in the Galaxy, considering their potent tech and outwardly "accepting" demeanor. The main point they don't see eye to eye on is that the Eldar won't join the Greater Good because they still aren't convinced that the Tau aren't going to get wiped out by the Imperium.

Keep in mind that, despite all their tech, the Tau are the merest encroachment upon the Imperium's territory. If the Eastern Fringe had a century or so of stability(without the Nids and Necrons constantly assaulting worlds), they would bring everything they had and wipe the Tau out. It wouldn't be pretty ,but they could do it.

>> No.19341284

>>19341250
So, again. Why exactly would someone want to play Eldar, if their fluff basically amounts to "You suck, everyone else does your thing better than you, and nothing you do will make any difference in the long run." What possible draw is there in that?

>> No.19341292

In the Ravenor series the main character uses wraithbone pendents with his psychic powers. He got training by the eldar at some point and wasn't an expectational psychic in the first place.


So an ordinary person. No. But a decent psycher with the right training. Sure.

>> No.19341295

>>19341254
It is if, because of a longer lifetime, you mature much more slowly and cannot have children at the same rate as humans can.

The Asari are a perfect example for this. They don't become truly fertile until almost a century into their lifespan. I would imagine that Eldar are similar in this respect, and it would also explain why their numbers are dwindling despite being much less combative than the other 40k races.

>> No.19341306

>>19341254
Mutation has a lot of warp catalyst in 40k, since psyker's have their power based on the warp too this adds more randomness.

>> No.19341329

>>19341284
They like the aesthetic? Or the fluff, which is a tad more in depth than leltheysuck?

>> No.19341339

>>19341329
"loltheysuck and have psychic powers) is not depth.

>> No.19341345

>>19341339
I know you're going for gross oversimplification to make a point but jesus christ man try a little.

>> No.19341353

>>19341339
I agree, there is more to them than sucking and having psychic powers.

>> No.19341360

>>19341250
It doesn’t fit at all. Especially when the Imperium’s shtick is meant to be almost the same – i.e. they’re collapsing from within and without and the decline is getting faster by the decade.

From a thematic standpoint, it makes no sense to give one race a defining trait, and make another species better at it. Especially if the trait isn’t central to the identity of the second race. It’s like making Klingons better at controlling their emotions than Vulcans. It’s not part of their identity, or a defining trait of theirs, but now they’re better at it just because.

>> No.19341377

>>19341345
No, he does have a fair point. What's the attraction in playing a race that doesn't get to do anything other than die and lament about how they can't do anything other than die? The Eldar are a dying race, fine. What's appealing about that is being able to go outwith a bang, to fuck Chaos in the eye and make damn sure the Galaxy remembers you. Not dribbling out with a wet fart as everyone winds up doing everything you do, but better.

>> No.19341382

>>19341218
>close relations

Not yet. Despite all the Tau efforts, the El'Dar refuse to make contact with the Tau and establish any meaningful relationship. The Tau from time to time spot El'Dar vessels (On occasion El'Dar fleets and even Craftworlds) probing and skimming Tau space. Each time the Tau approached the El'Dar, they were turned back polity or aggressively.

The only noteworthy conflict between the Tau and the El'Dar happened in the Medusa Campaign. The Tau were running a research operation on the planet and stumbled on the El'Dar. Curious about the El'Dar presence on the planet, the Tau apprehended a number of El'Dar to interview them. This enraged the El'Dar forces on Medusa causing them to lash out savagely at the Tau.

>> No.19341397

>>19341377
>fuck Chaos in the eye and make damn sure the Galaxy remembers you
This has an appeal but I think that lies more within the imperium than eldar. Eldar are at their core about sorrow, the problem is that the humans are getting better at psychic powers and they are a more dominant military force. Eldar are chasing long forgotten prophecies and fighting dirty out of necessity and that has its appeal to.

It's obvious the Eldar aren't for you but that doesn't mean there's absolutely no reason to play them.

>> No.19341405

>>19341329
Have you actually read the fluff? "Dying out" and "psychic" are not just keywords, they're the pillars of the eldar identity.

Any depth you can find in the fluff stems from that. Yeah, they have a weird perspective on life and beautiful rituals. You know why? Because they're dying out and they're psychic.

>> No.19341406

>>19341397
>It's obvious the Eldar aren't for you

I play Eldar, and always have done. I just resent the way GW's treating my army and can't understand why anyone would want to actually pick the army up these days.

>> No.19341412

>>19341360
>Especially when the Imperium’s shtick is meant to be almost the same – i.e. they’re collapsing from within and without and the decline is getting faster by the decade.

And part of that is because of the fucking psykers popping up everywhere. If they were bellow the average Eldar in threat then it would pretty much be no problem at all.

>From a thematic standpoint, it makes no sense to give one race a defining trait, and make another species better at it. Especially if the trait isn’t central to the identity of the second race.

The Eldar are not solely defined by being psychic and the Imperium relies on Psykers a whole lot. I'd also not immediately say they were better than the Eldar, they have more raw strength but their heads explode into demons much more and they're often insane wretches.

>> No.19341430

>>19341276
there also probably less tau exisitng in the galaxy than there are eldar in a single craftworld.

though other the eldar tau are the only race i know of that has deep space stations (the orbital waypoints)

>> No.19341452

>>19341412
It's not just the psykers popping up. They're minor in comparison to the fact that the Imperium's enemies are all closing in and seemingly endless, its structure is too spread-thin to be coordinate, and the fact that the astronomicon is failing.

And being psychic is one of the core defining points of the eldar. People summarize them as 'psychic space elves' and the Imperium as 'catholic space nazis'. Who do you think should have more powerful psykers?

>> No.19341465

>>19341412
>average Eldar
Who's talking about average? Quit propping strawmen, please. Eldar Farseers are a special caste and have a very deserved threat level.
>The Eldar are not solely defined by being psychic
No, you're right. Being psychic is about half of the definition.

>> No.19341466

>>19341430
Out of curiosity, How large is the population on a single Craftworld?

>> No.19341497

>>19341466
Depends on the Craftworld. Some are in the billions, some are in the millions. Battlefleet Gothic puts the 'average' Craftworld at larger-than-Earth sized and with a population in the billions. I don't think there's been any specific fluff on the matter since then.

>> No.19341510

>>19341452
>It's not just the psykers popping up.

Not just, and not minor either. Each psyker is a walking hell gate waiting to happen.

>People summarize them as 'psychic space elves' and the Imperium as 'catholic space nazis'.

Personally I usually just see them as 'space elves.'

>Who do you think should have more powerful psykers?

I do not care.

>> No.19341511

>>19341466
Depends on the craftworld.
Some are as small as a ship. Iyanden has a mountain range with a sea as one of its public parks.

>> No.19341564

>>19341465
>Who's talking about average?

Me, every Eldar is a psyker. If humans psykers cannot be more powerful than Eldar psykers then the average human psyker should be less powerful than an Eldar Guardian in terms of psychic potential.

>Eldar Farseers are a special caste and have a very deserved threat level.

Yes, okay.

>No, you're right. Being psychic is about half of the definition.

Whatever you say.

>> No.19341635

>>19341564
Splitting hairs doesn’t make your argument any more valid. You guys are quite obviously talking about the talented psykers of each faction, and nobody is saying that powerful human psykers should be less powerful than untrained/untalented eldar psykers.

Don’t try to bog your opponent down in meaningless objections.

>> No.19341643

>>19341564
> average human specially trained psyker is the same as the average untrained, completely latent specimen
Of crying outloud, stop trolling.
You have specialized Eldar psykers, Farseers and warlocks, who are supposed to be top-notch. That's it. Your comparisons do not follow any human pattern of logic, and if you aren't trolling, then I am truly terrified for your future.

>> No.19341707

Considering the 6th Edition rumours that Ward wants to put Eldar psykers with Tzeentch psykers on the highest 'mastery level', over Marines, I'm not sure that he actually knew how powerful alpha-plus level psykers are supposed to be when he described Tigirius as the 'most powerful psyker in the Imperium'.

After all, he specified 'in the Imperium', not 'in the galaxy'.

>> No.19341719

>>19341643
>>19341635
Why should Eldar have more powerful specialist psykers when base human psykers are more powerful than base Eldar?
Seers can be powerful, but they don't need to be more powerful than powerful human psykers.

>> No.19341779

>>19341719
You're still arguing from an in-universe perspective. I'm talking about thematics.

Eldar were designed as the most powerful psychic race. That's how they were introduced. That's how their codex STILL introduces them. Giving that trait to another faction is thematically shitty. A trait that defines one faction has been handed over to another... to which it is just a peripheral matter.

>> No.19341805

>>19341719
Because th- ah fuck this circular argument bullshit it it should work like this and for the most part does from weakest to strongest

base human
base eldar
trained human
trained eldar
1 in a trillion human thats not insane and a top tier alpha
the insane ones roughly 10 seconds before a demon forces its way out of their anus

>> No.19341883

>>19341779
>You're still arguing from an in-universe perspective. I'm talking about thematics.

Well then I no longer care.
They're still a psychic race, on average taking into account the whole of humanity and CW Eldar probably still the most psychic race.

>>19341805
Sure I can live with differing opinions.

>> No.19343490

here is a question,

Why isnt there an Alpha class Eldar farseer? Or even higher for that matter.

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