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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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[ERROR] No.19131109 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

/tg/, I know this board is full of optimists. Can you please post portraits or quotes of the characters or people that inspire you the most? Doesn't necessarily have to be from a /tg/ genre either.

82 tinuart.

>> No.19131127


Samwell Tarly!

Also, if you want a paladin?


There you go.

>> No.19131136

This is how I Fighter.

>> No.19131140

No idea where it's from, but it's my wallpaper.

>> No.19131142

I will never be as hardcore as this awesome mofo.

But, fuck yeah, I'm gunna try

>> No.19131151


>> No.19131156


>> No.19131161

>No idea where it's from

>> No.19131172


Crap, I forgot what it was...

Maybe it was the Civil War series of Comic Books?

I think it was Cap to Tony Stark

>> No.19131175


>> No.19131180

You got the one with the protester getting sprayed full on by a firehose in a riot, and just taking the hit like a boss?

>> No.19131192


I wasn't sure whether that was a quote from the comic or not.

>> No.19131193


I love that face.

>You done pissed off the rape train now son, and the brakes are mighty rusty

>> No.19131195

Right above you, brother. Excellent timing.

>> No.19131204


It was cap to Spidey.

>> No.19131223

It's funny how people use this ideology to justify their own opinions.

>> No.19131239


Ahhhh gotcha.

>> No.19131240

yeah faggots gonna fag

>> No.19131256

>> No.19131266

i've always sort of been uncomfortable with this panel because basically it allows you to justify -anything- if you believe in it. that's a shaky road to send people down.
Anyway, pic is my contribution.

>> No.19131270

you goddamn heretic...

>> No.19131277

Speak of the devil. Have something a friend sketched up for me, from our Little Fears game.

>> No.19131300

>> No.19131308

It is not power that corrupts but fear. Fear of losing power corrupts those who wield it and fear of the scourge of power corrupts those who are subject to it.

[separate quote]

Fearlessness may be a gift but perhaps more precious is the courage acquired through endeavour, courage that comes from cultivating the habit of refusing to let fear dictate one's actions, courage that could be described as "grace under pressure" — grace which is renewed repeatedly in the face of harsh, unremitting pressure.

>> No.19131322

/r/ the comic with the kid with a baseball bat and the meteor

>> No.19131325

Maybe I'm weird, but I've always found the Pale Blue Dot to make me cheerful. Sometimes humbling is a good experience.

>> No.19131329

...The truth kind of fucks it up for you. Just gonna warn you about that.

>> No.19131334

>> No.19131340

John Mill: Noted Pacifist.

>> No.19131343

its not humbling, its realistic yet hopefull.

>> No.19131348


>> No.19131354

I will always listen to this speech.

>> No.19131360


Same Speech +additional images

Truly the greatest speech ever made

>> No.19131370

>> No.19131374


To Dream
The Impossible Dream

>> No.19131379



>> No.19131387

The kid caused the comet.

I warned you.

>> No.19131392

What the fuck
where the fuck did you read that

>> No.19131395

>> No.19131402

Sigh.... The very same comic you are requesting. The child is a god, out of boredom she summoned a comet to hit with a baseball bat.

>> No.19131407

The kid is a reality warper who likes to mess with reality for her own amusement. Even if she didn't cause the meteor she probably would have actually hit it in the first place.

>> No.19131411

It's from Minus, and Minus is basically god, and is also a little shit.

>> No.19131413

Minus. Christ, I'd blocked the name out of my brain.

>> No.19131427

Rebel /tg/

You've been doing it ever since you first rolled that d20, or wrote that army list or picked up that booster pack. You are the army of the free. Your cause is freedom, your weapons are the myths and legends that slay dragons, raise mountains and tear open the heavens.

Rebel /tg/, and never stop

>> No.19131437


No I'm the guy who posted the Suu Kyi stuff. What the fuck are you guys talking about? And why yall responding to me?

>> No.19131457

Is it right to probe so deeply into Nature's secrets? The question must here be raised whether it will benefit mankind, or whether the knowledge will be harmful.

-Pierre Curie, Wizard

>> No.19131466

This Kid is a dick

>> No.19131471

Leave it to /tg/ to get my blood pumping late at night when I can't go out and run a mile.

Now what am I supposed to do?

>> No.19131480

No quotes that I know of, but she's still a personal hero of mine. Maybe because she's my age, just a student, and she made the movers and shakers shake indeed.

>> No.19131482

Throw that drive into something you need to get done. Write that story, or that rules set you're working on, or that game, or some classwork. Get shit done.

>> No.19131484

The fact that the Mythbusters are a thing inspires me.

>> No.19131486


The meteor strip is a lot more inspiring without the background info. That kid really is a dick.

>> No.19131503

>> No.19131517

nearly all comics/literature about god are shit.

>> No.19131522

Fuck the things that go bump in the night. Fuck the gods that toy with our lives from on high. Fuck the unspeakable monsters that lurk in forgotten ruins.

There's no problem that can't be evened out by exploitation, a big gun, and a lack of survival instinct. Welcome to Earth.

>> No.19131531

For a man of character, in certain situations, there is only one course he can take. The man who in the same situation sees two courses open to him may be an artist in living, but is hardly entitled to respect.

>> No.19131549

the comic does have some awesome strips though
It happens normally when the kid is not on scene

>> No.19131554


>> No.19131570


>> No.19131571

Last one from me (Suu Kyi and Vallejo poster)
Please don't get all /r9k/ on me here guys

>Many young women of my generation believe they live in a post-feminist world, without unfair sex discrimination -- a world in which career paths are designed with fathers and mothers in mind. Unfortunately, that world doesn't exist quite yet.

>> No.19131591

Anyon have the story behind this? I've seen it before, and always wanted to know what actually went down.

>> No.19131602


The revolutions in Kyrgyzstan. Rocket-man fought the police.

>> No.19131604

Masculism is an equally, if not more, pressing issue.

>> No.19131611

Shitstorm incoming. Fucking rightarded idiots will say she's a Democrat plant, and leftist dickwads will hold her up as a paragon of womens' rights.

>> No.19131612

I want someone to pay for my stuff too! It is my right having made it out of a vagina without having been aborted to anything I want, or claim is only fair that I also receive.

>Please take all your bullshit to /pol/, where it is tolerated.
>Fuck yourself.
Pick two.

>> No.19131616


every fucking time, /tg/

>> No.19131627

I have a hard time seeing what she did as inspirational. Nothing against the issue, I just don't see why joining a circus is all that hard.

>> No.19131628

Enemy's of the imperium hear me. You have come hear to die. The immortal emperor is with us and we are invincible.His soldiers will strike you down.His war machines will crush you under there treads.His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you.
You cannot win...


>> No.19131632


>> No.19131639


Y'know what? The true Powers That Be will exploit our every difference to keep us at each other instead of killing the shit out of them. So race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, political party, philosophy, sports team, and you bet your ass SEX.

Stop fucking buying what they're selling. There is one and only one us-them dichotomy you need to be focused on, and it's who holds the chains and who wears the collar. Or enjoy your fucking life in bondage.

>> No.19131646

>Please don't get all /r9k/ on me here guys
you knew what you were doing faggot

way to ruin a thread

>> No.19131663


>> No.19131674

>dichotomy you need to be focused on, and it's who holds the chains and who wears the collar
Yep. That sure sounds like women...

>> No.19131689

I've got two I have kept in mind from Heinlein since I was very young (I had Rocket Ship Galileo on my bookshelf since I was a toddler).

"Specialization is for insects." and "Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." (That was my yearbook quote, and they hilariously typo'd his name as "Heineken")

>> No.19131705

>> No.19131727

>"Specialization is for insects."
Super super super dumb quote. The full quote is even worse, because it's literally Heinlein using himself as a benchmark for all of humanity. Specialization is *vital*.

The other one is also quite dumb, but not intended completely literally.

>> No.19131728

fucking slacker...
oh, sure...!
use the ol' "I was frozen in a glacier" excuse!

>> No.19131746

I didn't add any caption to this image because frankly, the image says it all.

>> No.19131766

you know the saddest part of that war. the soldiers were feeling very victorious. the from the generals down they knew they were going to win. than the president and liberal douchebaggery quit and the north planned that to be the outcome.

>> No.19131785

The Emperor
I have no greater wish than for man to colonize the galaxy and claim dominion over every world and very system.


Because I am human. And for a human, there is no greater glory than contributing to the glory of mankind, no greater family than my own species, and no greater love than for the generations that will follow. All my work, all that study, I do for the glory of mankind.

I believe in progress, and I will not have people suffer simply because people in power lack imagination. All my work, I do in his name.

>> No.19131792

>That srs face
That's the face of a goddamn hero.

>> No.19131794


Ah, the Tet Offensive. If I remember correctly, by the time the sun set, all the advances the North had made were undone.

>> No.19131795


>> No.19131797

If you're gonna post it, post the whole quote...
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Anson Heinlein

Name one situation in which only being good at one thing is better than being good at lots of things. It's fine to be BETTER at one thing than other things, but every thing someone can't do for themselves is a potential weakness.

>> No.19131805


>> No.19131814

Fairy tales are important-not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us they can be beaten.

I wish I could remember where that came from...

>> No.19131821

yeah. it was all fucking bullshit. and as the soldiers were pulling out the ones that were left were heavily outgunned.

>> No.19131831


>> No.19131836

The problem was that it was the first war in which the media basically had free reign to show what they wanted, and what they showed was the shocking stuff. The stuff that certainly didn't LOOK like we were winning. The media controls people's perceptions, and the PERCEPTION given by their coverage of the Tet Offensive was of a loss, even though the reality of the battle was a victory.

>> No.19131855

>> No.19131869

That these are things, is inspirational in their own right.

>> No.19131872

that is why the stranglehold on the media vs the military is much greater.

the media doesn't get free reign wherever they want to go.

>> No.19131910

I was just going to post that, you glorious fa/tg/uy.

I guess this game story will have to do instead

>> No.19131912


Several of the things he lists there are actually what most would consider specialized skills. I think it's a dumb quote.

>> No.19131921

But the definition of "specialization" includes a vast range of skillsets, and being good at only one thing is at the extreme end. It would've been a perfectly fine quote without that second sentence (which, of course, is the only part most people remember).

>> No.19131938

I did just say? Specialization is vital. We progress as a species, as well as individuals. People - amazingly enough - do not have to be able to design a building, or write a sonnet, or butcher a hog, or conn a ship: at least partially because other people can do these things. Not to mention, specialization does not mean 'only one thing, ever'. Specialization can be a range of abilities.

It's also an incredible uncomfortable quote in consideration of physical and mental disabilities, because it aims to set a basis for what a 'human being' is.

>> No.19131956


Holy shit what? That's incredible!

>> No.19131958

>It's also an incredible uncomfortable quote in consideration of physical and mental disabilities, because it aims to set a basis for what a 'human being' is

If you take it literally, it obviously means that Heinlein does not consider children human.

>> No.19132009

Yeah, it's good stuff. This man's life was just as amazing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kirby

>> No.19132146

By context however, specialization refers to the type of extreme specialization that ends in being unable to stand on your own two feet.
No, much of what he lists are either
A: Only considered specialized because people have gotten complacent
B: The basic level of a more specialized skill set
Change a diaper: not specialized
Plan an invasion: somewhat specialized, but at the basic level a good thing to know.
Butcher a hog: not specialized, I learned how from my grandfather and dad when I was twelve
Conn a ship: not really that much harder than driving a car, you just need to know how to navigate, something that's only considered specialized in this day and age due to us being coddled by shit like GPS and Mapquest
Design a building: I can design a basic shelter in an hour or so, and a barn in an afternoon, and I am nothing like an architecture major
Write a sonnet: sonnets really aren't that hard, they have a determined structure they follow
Balance accounts: Do you do your own taxes? Because plenty of people do.

>> No.19132155

Build a wall: not actually specialized, it's mostly manual labor and a bit of basic level engineering
Set a bone: Basic medical care, there's no reason not to know first aid and setting a bone is only a little more specialized than that.
Comfort the dying: clearly not specialized, it's a matter of being there for them
Take orders: simple enough
Give orders: Again, not specialized if you study a little leadership theory.
Cooperate: A basic tenet of modern society
Act alone: taking initiative and doing what needs to be done, if you can't I pity you.
Solve equations: Basic skill that any high school graduate has
Analyze a new problem: Really, you're gonna argue that the ability to look at a situation and apply rational thinking is specialized?
Pitch manure: manual labor, but important if you want to grow your own crops
Program a computer: Remember, computers at the time were much simpler to program

>> No.19132173

Cook a tasty meal: Anyone who doesn't plan to live with mommy and daddy forever should know this
Fight efficiently: Not being able to defend yourself is asking for trouble.
Die gallantly: Every man should have a cause he would be willing to lay his life down for should it prove necessary. He wasn't advocating being a MASTER of all of this, he was advocating the ability to look after yourself.There's also the fact that you automatically assume that because he didn't say "A mentally well, physically able adult should"? It's called economy of terms, he wasn't saying "people with disabilities aren't human" he was saying "Humans should learn everything they can, so that should they ever need to, they can live on their own." He was saying "Go out and become a modern day renaissance man." He was saying "Learn to stand on your own and never shall you be beholden to anyone else."

>> No.19132181

They're not. They're like tadpoles. They'll grow into a human being.

>> No.19132198

>It's also an incredible uncomfortable quote in consideration of physical and mental disabilities, because it aims to set a basis for what a 'human being' is.
Note that he says "should". He is establishing something to aspire to. The ability to note and analyze word choice is key to discussion of famous quotations.

>> No.19132202

>> No.19132214


Sailor here.
Conning a ship is not a specialized skill. However, it is not easy, and saying that people can't do it because they have been coddled by GPS isn't quite right.

The chief skills in actually conning are attention to detail, and communication. Seeing what threats are around you, and communicating them to your bridge crew.

So, yeah, if you want to be a kick ass human being, you should be able to conn a ship.

>> No.19132229

My experience in the Army as a tanker attention to detail and communication are two skills that can get you damn near anywhere.

>> No.19132241

Not using the dictionary definition, I see.

>> No.19132244

Speaking of attention to detail, I'm obviously tired and should go to bed, because it's obviously failed me.... or maybe I've failed it, not really sure which at this point.

>> No.19132268

yes, civil war capt america but in spiderman #537

capt to spiderman on a roof top, spiderman asking how he can keep on like he does with the country labeling him a trailor when he opposed the super-human registration act

>> No.19132277

I fucking love Thoreau, so here's some of his stuff.

How does it become a man to behave towards the American goverment today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it.

If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.

Live at home as a traveler.

Aim above morality. Be not simply good, but good for something.

Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

>> No.19132347

He fought the law.
The law did not win.
He is now how I Chaotic Good.

>> No.19132367

It might be a bit trite, but Gamma Ray, a power metal band. Some of their songs such as "Time to Live" manage to be inspirational.

>> No.19132378


Thoreau taught me I have a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws, but that I will still have to live with the consequences of my actions. It's a stance that I consider to be far more adult than most philosophy, and that I strive to live up to.

>> No.19132386

I like you.

>> No.19132395


"from the generals down they knew they were going to win."


The generals on up knew they would win. On the ground they knew better.

>> No.19132397

You're a good person anon.
I'd offer you a beer but there's no way to send it through the internet.

>> No.19132416

Rebellion in Dreamland

>> No.19132425

If you have an Apple device you can send him an overpriced coffee.

>> No.19132427

Another perspective of that scene

>> No.19132441

I don't, and why would I send coffe? If I were to send a non-beer liquid it would be tea.

>> No.19132444

The National Liberation Council and the People of Libya.

They show what happens when a whole nation decided they have enough and go into an adventure

>> No.19132457

A couple bits of /co/ goodness headed your way

>> No.19132466

It's a joke. Apple, hipsters, Starbucks, that sort of thing.

>> No.19132469

That shit was so baller, it was like I was watching Orkgineering in action.

>> No.19132476

They realized their true power, and exercised it like true Men.

>> No.19132491


>> No.19132494

I got it, I just honestly thought there really was an app to send someone a coupon for a free coffee at Starbucks. It'd certainly fit with the hipster mentality.

>> No.19132504

Last one from me. God bless the Blue Lantern Corps

>> No.19132505

Yeap. It was one of them rare events in which I follow the news and news coverages closely. Shit was glorious.

>> No.19132508

"Want free stuff? There's an app for that."

I recommend you submit this idea to Apple immediately. It could well be the next big thing.

>> No.19132517

mah nigga (she's mai raifu too)

>> No.19132548

>> No.19132563


>> No.19132579

She's small, or that's a huge FAL.

>> No.19132593

I was actually thinking of the other statement there: A hero is just a man who knows he's free.

She's in high school at oldest, she's small.

>> No.19132600

She's got a small build.
High school girl in a work originating in Japan. Also the anthropomorphic embodiment of the rifle itself. Upotte! is kinda weird.

>> No.19132603

Children, I implore you
get out of the burning house now.
Three carts await outside
to save you from a homeless life.
Relax in the village square
before the sky, everything's empty.
No direction is better or worse,
East just as good as West.
Those who know the meaning of this
are free to go where they want.
All the people in the Kuo-ch'ing monastery—
They say, "Han-shan is an idiot."
"Am I really an idiot:" I reflect.
But my reflections fail to solve the question:
for I myself do not know who the self is,
And how can others know who I am?

>> No.19132613

Do I have a body? Or have I none?
Am I who I am? Or am I not?
Pondering these questions, I sit
Leaning against the cliff while the years go by
And the green grass grows up between my feet
And the red dust settles on my head
Then men of the world come and thinking me dead
Bring offerings of wine and fruit

Separate poems from Hanshan, 8th/9th century Chinese poet.

>> No.19132634

Al Bishi, the Lord High Executioner of Saudi Arabia, inspires me. Super professional.

>> No.19132640

>> No.19132648

lets see what i got in my library of images
oh yeah that is a really awesome picture
maybe not inspirational but awesome

>> No.19132658

Try to keep it to inspirational, you have no idea the sheer volume of awesome pics I'm sitting on.

>> No.19132716


It was a calculated risk. I took a leap of faith in /tg/'s ability to discuss things maturely and it seems to have mostly worked out.

>> No.19132727

SE Asian Studies fag here.


Are people still under the strange illusion that winning battle after battle was getting us somewhere and fucking meant anything?


Best summary of the whole thing I've heard in a long time.

>> No.19132739

Live free or die . Some say there are other options but there aren't just different names for death

>> No.19132749

Such a shame that the quote is true, the reason most children are so terrible these days is they simply don't have parents as we used to, parents don't have time to raise their kids between how much they both need to work to keep a roof over their heads and everyone fed and entertained.

>> No.19132790


Remember that collar I was talking about earlier? That's what you're feeling.

>> No.19132816


I'll agree to the point that children would benefit from more direct caregiving and that the market hasn't done us favors in that regard. A second income should have raised our living standards. Instead the prices went up so that you had to do it to survive. Then, you're supposed to outsource care labor to some professional daycare provider who doesn't even know the kid and has two dozen others to watch. It's the ultimate pinnacle of the neoliberal mentality of transforming everything into a market relationship, even caring for children. That alarms me pretty deeply.

That said, I'm not sure entirely how it directly relates to the quote and particularly the quote's context. How would more hands-on caregiving by parents solve the problem of theocrats trying to keep birth control inaccessible?

>> No.19132820

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

>> No.19132846


Yep. Rather than creating things to suit real needs, they bombard us with messages about how we're not good enough in various ways, try to create insecurities to manufacture needs. It's fucking insidious.

>> No.19132850


And the part they left out: hating the man next to us, and cursing his name, when it's the oligarch that built the structure and reaps the rewards.

Jay Gould famously said he could hire half the poor to kill the other half. He didn't go far enough. Tell half the poor that the other half are unamerican, or godless liberals, or fascists, and they'll pay YOU for the chance to kill them.

>> No.19132857

What? No one posted it?

>> No.19132864

A lot less meaningful when you know that Minus can actually succeed at what she is doing.

>> No.19132868

Cap thread?

>> No.19132878




Final sermon of Thorgrim Grimthor, Troll Physical Adept, follower of the Norse pantheon, and last scion of Lucha Libre, before breaching the experimental reactor core of Aztechnology Headquarters, destroying it before their blood mages could finish a ritual that, unbeknownst to them, would begin the end of the world as we know in (on a scale of 'suddenly every major city is filled with Things From Beyond' sort of thing)

>> No.19132882

I may not agree with the man next to me at work, but he is more my brother than any fat old man in a suit in DC, or Harrisburg, or Kansas City, or Madison Avenue, or Hollywood.

>> No.19132895

Are you guys trolling? The pic was already posted. Minus caused the meteor, fellas. Move along. Move along.

>> No.19132897

I'll throw it off it inconveniences me enough I guess, it's not such a pain that I can't tolerate it to enjoy the virtues of such a life.

It's just how I read the quote, both sexes suffer from unfair discrimination but I was mainly addressing how careers hurt both mothers and fathers.
I didn't know much about the quote's particular context however.

>> No.19132904

>> No.19132905

Congratulations, you can quote fight club. and not the book, that's specifically a line from the movie. oddly enough, one of the highest-grossing films in either Pitt's or Norton's careers.

>sure is summer in here

>> No.19132921

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with making money. There IS something wrong with a society where we're eternally on the debt treadmill.

>> No.19132932

I like to imagine that kid, hits that thing out of the park.

All he has to do is, swing the bat.

>> No.19132942

>The Arab spring uprisings
>Specifically Libya

I followed that shit too. I also watched a lot of the footage coming from both sides.

There were no saints in that confict. The rebels were torturing captured loyalists, and vice versa. I'd rank the loyalists as a bit nastier, however. Their snipers liked to aim for kids during the protests, and instead of head/centermass shots, they favored groinshots. (plenty of footage of guys getting a round to the junk, youch)

Gotta love the proliferation of smartphones. Now we get to see all the horrible shit Arabs do to each other.

Oh Arabs and their Culture of absolute fatalism. It's fascinating.

>> No.19132944


>> No.19132957

You seem depressed. Would you like to talk about it?

>> No.19132962


Keep in mind, the cap represents a completely different worldview than what you or I are used to in our daily lives, for him there is an objective good and evil, it isn't a matter of X is just your opinion, X is a moral evil that is observably and self evidently so. Cap's worldview flies in the face, and in many ways is directly opposed to the modern "all ideas are equal" approach. You can't justify anything, like you said, with the caps position because he's making it from a very specific worldview and has to be understood in his context, not ripped out of it.

Cap's whole point was that we are living in a time where people call good evil and evil good, where people prefer security to liberty and it's your duty, your absolute duty, to stand up to it, plant yourself like a tree by the river of truth and tell the world "no, you move".

Fuck! gave myself a boner, brb gunna fap

>> No.19132963

You know that Palahniuk said he was much more pleased with the movie than the book, right?

>> No.19132972

See >>19131395, read filename.

>> No.19133005

>I'll throw it off it inconveniences me enough I guess

You, and the rest of humanity. But it's designed such that it's only ever a slight inconvenience. You have mega-bread and ultra-circuses; what need have you of freedom? The chains light on your shoulders, and the collar of purest gold. The taskmaster's lash but a gentle tickle, your toil not unbearable. Why rebel?

>> No.19133035

How would you imagine a country working if it threw off its oppressors? Can you even imagine a working Anarchy? It might work ideally but I just can't see it transforming into reality.

>> No.19133048


One of the guys responding to him. I've never seen it, actually, so I didn't recognize it. Goddammit I thought maybe the statement was a sign of intellectual life on 4chan.

>> No.19133062

Dat continuity. I like it.

>Bottom left picture

>> No.19133095


Who said anything about anarchy? I'm not still twelve. Anarchy is an eyeblink vacuum into which strongmen step.

If things went as well as could be hoped for, it would revert to a democratic republic, for a time, until that would again grow ossified and serve only the elite, at which point we'd have to shake it up again.

The problem isn't something inherent in our system or our people. The problem is that those in power no longer have reason to fear the masses. And that's the only thing that ever keeps them from fleecing us blind, from killing and robbing and enslaving us.

And I'm not advocating violence as a solution. I'm perfectly content with a peaceful transition of power. But make no mistake, the status quo can politely step out of the way of human progress, or they can be fucking trampled. I give not the slightest fuck either way.

>> No.19133096


>> No.19133112

Sorry, I was reading through replies further up in the thread. The comic wasn't posted with a reply so I missed it. Oh well.

>> No.19133115

>> No.19133121

See here, friend. This man gives me hope. He is a poet.

>> No.19133134

>> No.19133137


Most of the people who would use that sort of speech to justify their opinion (as that anon said) would also believe that the world is black in what. Black is what they say is black, and white is what they say is white, and there's no arguing with it. In that sense Cap's approach to morality is no different from those of terrible people.

This doesn't mean all ideas are evil. Quite the contrary, if you think something is good, say why. If you think that something is bad, say why. Argue. Persuade. Justify.

I personally dislike that speech because, actually, the whole country was founded on the idea of representative government, people get to decide "right" and "wrong" for themselves, and Captain doesn't get to decide that for them. Perhaps it looks better in context, but taken out and framed like that he's just saying "Fuck the world, they're wrong, I'm right". The quote alone lacks moral substance; it really could be put in the mouth of anyone, and used to justify anything.

>> No.19133183

>black and white
not "black in what"

>doesn't mean all ideas are equal

not "all ideas are evil"

Should probably just stop posting, I'm derp tonight.

>> No.19133193


>that the world is black in what

>> No.19133195

He isn't saying 'fuck the world, I'm right they're wrong'.

He's saying that against all odds a man should stand for what he believes in and never waver.

>> No.19133198

To be fair, not all ideas are equal is just as true.

>> No.19133213


But it's apropos coming from Cap, because our Constitution enshrines the idea that there are certain things that you do NOT do, period. Fuck popular opinion, fuck polling, fuck the fickle winds of Congress. ALL MEN are entitled to the due process of law. ALL MEN shall be protected equally under the law. ALL MEN shall have the right to speak freely, and write as they see fit, and gather in like-minded groups, and to petition the government for redress.

Now, do we live up to that? Fuck no, and we've been shamefully fucking bad at it since a few crazies killed a lot of people. And it is up to us, the People, to stand up and say, "No." Because we have no champion who will do it for us.

What Cap is saying is that when faced with a denial of one of these inarguable truths, when told, "Black is white," it is your duty as a just man to say, "No."

>> No.19133214

Cap's worldview isn't alien to everyone. I'm ex-army. I understand why Cap's always been very black & white, even if the current authors, artists, and majority of the audience don't. The American Ideal, the rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, are more than just "themes" for our society. America isn't perfect, it's a long way from that, but it is still a far sight better than any non-NATO nation.

I hate the anti-American sentiment within our own nation. People in other countries are fighting and dying to gain the basic rights and liberties that we were born with.

All points of view and ideas are not equal, not when the "American Ideal" has created the only environment in the modern world where dissent of the establishment is tolerated.

>> No.19133222

I read of a medical study done once (well, probably a lot more than once) about placebos.

Reseachers gave terminally ill patients in a old folk's home sugar pills to treat symptoms (arthritis, sleep problems, bowl problems, quality of life things) sugar pills. They did it with all the seriousness of true meds, prescription, billing to insurance, all that.

Most people reported marked effectivness of the "medicine".

That got me thinking. What ELSE is effectively a placebo for well, anything else?

We Americans have historically valued and protected our rights and privacy. Hell, I can shoot a man for walking into my house uninvited. Yet Apple sells record smashing sales of iPhones which track absolutely every aspect of you life and use it for it's own benefit. Norton Antivirus (2009+) keeps track of your browsing habits and reports it to itself and an undisclosed 3rd party. It has never been forced to disclose what/who. (Apple I would say is far more experienced at this practice).

And yet, we as a people, are lapping it up. Freely tossing aside our rights so that we can play Angry Birds on the go. (on technology that is 15 years old, I might add. Did a tour as an AVI POG USMC and saw tech back in 2002 that is only now available to civvies).

We are taking the sugar pills and loving it. I look forward to the next 50 years. It should be interesting. The news is better than any prime time sitcom.

>> No.19133223


>> No.19133239


>> No.19133253

Damn straight.

And you're right captcha: acknowledged bettter

>> No.19133269

>> No.19133286

Or rather, created an environment where dissent is castrated not through blunt physical censorship, but sophisticated corporatite marketing.

The problem is that the view your promulgate usually leads to a "love it or leave it" mentality where reactionaryism, bigotry, and other bullshit is used as political capital by regressive assholes. You can't bitch about "anti-americanism" and praise dissent at the same time.

>> No.19133308

>>Cap's whole point was that we are living in a time where people call good evil and evil good, where people prefer security to liberty and it's your duty, your absolute duty, to stand up to it, plant yourself like a tree by the river of truth and tell the world "no, you move".

The problem is that can be used to defend any sort of reactionary viewpoint. Remember "segregation now, segregation FOREVER!" ?

>> No.19133310

>I hate the anti-American sentiment within our own nation.

Be careful with that line of thought. Because anti-status quo is not anti-American. I very much despise what we're doing as a nation and a people, BECAUSE I'm such a patriot. I see our actions now as being a selling of our birthright, a betrayal of the ideals I was brought up on. I WANT America to be that shining city on a hill, not a target demographic and a marketing slogan. We stand for freedom, and we don't do it by giving free passes to the brutal dictators that play nice with us. We stand for justice, and we don't do it by denying justice to those we hate the most because it's convenient. We stand for truth, and not the regurgitation of two different flavors of lies followed by the weasel words, "You decide."


We might just find that our largest failing as a nation is that, while no one can take your rights away from you, you can freely give them away.

>> No.19133343

That's another tragedy that's almost uniquely american; couching extreme anti-worker/anti-union/pro-superwealthy sentiments as patriotic in of themselves.

>> No.19133362

It's not anti-worker/anti-union. Though it is anti-superwealthy, especially since the vast majority of the superwealthy didn't put that much work into getting where they are. Guys like Steve Jobs, earned that shit, but even amongst the superwealthy, he's in the vast minority, and that's something of a fucking problem.

>> No.19133379

Yes, you can. America is not the government, for the government is a transient an temporary thing, easily replaced by people willing to do a bit of hard work. The borders are nothing but ink on paper. The American flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. Defending it or burining it means nothing more than defending or burning a bed sheet.

What makes America, what differintiates us from the rest of the world, are the ideals sset forth in the Constitution, the Decleration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights.

Being an American patriot does not mean you support the government, it means you support the Ideals the government was created to protect. The oath of duty I swore when I volunteered for the Army was to protect and defend the people and the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

>> No.19133393

See, even for those that earned it, I think couching successful businessmen as the height of human achievement is a stupid cultural more, and I think that massive wealth redistribution is going to be necessary for a nation where a large, perhaps even the majority of the able bodied population is going to be out of work in the coming decades.

>> No.19133400

>> No.19133411

This is how you Paladin.

>> No.19133416


>> No.19133419

Then how come you spent all your time making money for Colt and Boeing and whatever other corporate fuckstains built all your toys? If you thought you were defending the nation as a whole, instead of just its monied, most influential members of it, you're probably sadly mistaken.

>> No.19133436


>> No.19133442

Wealth redistribution sets a bad precedent. As does a flat rate income cap.

I understand the belief that a income cap is necessary, but it should be a ratio cap, so that if, say, the CEO of Walmart wants to give himself a raise, he must give everyone below him a raise as well.

And of course, before Reagen, the percentage of the population that made over $250,00 a year paid close to 70% taxes,

>> No.19133449


Think about the number of people every day who do nothing but make-work. Some of it's work that we could automate, but it's cheaper to pay a person. When you count the unemployed, those who are considered "no longer seeking" due to long term unemployment, the forcibly retired, and those who are simply incapable, you're up to what, a quarter of the populace?

We're reaching a point where we simple don't NEED people to work. And it's only going to get worse over time. Capitalism's solution is that excess labor doesn't exist. They'll just conveniently shuffle off and die quietly. But that's rarely the case, as the Arab Spring demonstrated. And we have ZERO coherent plan for how to deal with this.

Frankly, I'm flat sick of living in interesting times, but it looks like my generation got the Chinese curse in spades.

>> No.19133468

Hoss, I'm talking about huge chunks of the populace living on welfare as their entire means of income (other than the occasional part time job) from birth to death. The utter END of "work for pay" as a means to derive your existence from, a change in the economy that's likely as radical as the move from agrarian to industrial was.

>> No.19133470

Think he asked for that? Do you think he MEANT for Colt and Boeing to get that money? It's a damn tragedy that people can get rich off of others actually standing up for what they believe in. A damn tragedy that will soon become America's legacy, if people like you keep complaining against principles, and not fighting against systems.

>> No.19133506

He was either okay with it, or ignorant of it, both of which are bad. He bought into the fetishization of the military as an instrument that protects American values, rather than a sophisticated apparatus for transferring tax dollars to corporate hands.

He didn't fight the system, he participated in it.

>> No.19133508

>Wealth redistribution sets a bad precedent.

No, it really doesn't. You've just been taught that it does.

Wealth naturally trickles up. It has a tendency to pool, as wealth begets more wealth. If systems don't keep it dynamic, it stagnates. And that's where we are right now. So either we do something to break the stagnation, or we become a pyramid with no bottom.

>> No.19133514

>>And we have ZERO coherent plan for how to deal with this.

America has the most sophisticated riot control in the entire world. (Other nations may be more outright violent, but in terms of squashing effective resistance...yeah)

Also the current paradox of people being poor AND fat/immobile.

>> No.19133540


"We used to kill people. Now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way."

Look to OWS. Ridicule and marginalization were the chief weapons of opposition, because they work in a civil society. Every time there was anything that even remotely smacked of an authoritarian crackdown, it only worked in their favor.

The moment they break out the jackboots and the tear gas and the batons, that's when they've lost.

>> No.19133549

Except that the military, for all its corporate trimmings, does defend the united states' ideals. Shit doesn't happen without guns and bullets and bombs and someone has to make them. Whoever makes it will be quite rich in the end, and that's been a fact of war since one man could sell tools to another to kill people with.

>> No.19133551


It is sad that you assume the monied individuals are the ones who would suffer without the army. As history has shown, time and again, when nations fight, it is the poor who suffer most. I was aware of all that when I joined, as were the majority of the people I served with. We went to war there because, regardless of whatever mistakes the corporations and the rich assholes made, if we had let the Taliban do as they pleased, the common people would be the ones who died for it. Not all men are reasonable, intelligent beings. There will always be those who wish to take what is not theres by fore, and there will always be people who want nothing more than to destroy those who stand taller than them.

There is always going to be an "us" and "them" , and we shall always need men willing to do the ugly, hard work necessary for our nation to grow and develop.

I fully support those who choose to protest and fight against unjust laws within our nation, I just feel that they need to always keep in mind that their power to build the shining city on the hill has been watered with the blood of countless patriots.

>> No.19133566

And what about the army gets used on the populace? These external outside boogiemen are in short supply compared to the legions of native despotic assholes who would LOVE to have Joes cracking heads in the middle of Madison avenue.

>> No.19133567

Yes, it does. Because it it encourages individuals to not aspire for more. If, once you get past a certain point you lose anything, why bother striving to reach that point?

And the fact is, that a life without goals is nothing but existence.

There should never be a point at which anyone says "This is good enough, I shall go no farther"

>> No.19133571

Ever heard of the Posse Comitatus act? Google it.

>> No.19133580


I think that's the one thing you never really have to fear. The Armed Forces simply will NOT turn on the general populace. You couldn't even TRY to deploy a unit to the continental US without a real, visible external threat, or you'd have a mutiny rate over 50%. It's one of the things I KNOW they teach you in OCS, and I'm pretty damn sure you get it in basic: the use of the US Armed Forces against US citizens is patently unconstitutional, every single fucking time.

>> No.19133589

What? A nation erupts into sectarian violence and Uncle Sam drops a few hundred million to settle old scores?

>> No.19133594

Your mistake is viewing that people only want to do something if you threaten them with starvation. It turns out people will do things they enjoy without being coerced.

We're talking about not the end of aspiration, but the end of GREED. The protestant work ethic is going to die screaming these next few years as more and more will either be under or unemployed. We've already seen the cultural death of mortgages and carpayments being signs of adulthood.

>> No.19133596

>>19133566As I said earlier, the Army is sworn to defend the citizens of the United States and the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. As they explained again and again in basic, this includes the civilian government, if they ever truly violate the constitution, the army will not tolorate it. Or so they are sworn to do. You are VERY mistaken if you think that the army blindly obeys the orders of any civilian authority.

>> No.19133601


Except that's not how it works. You never hit a point where doing more gets you less. Sure, your tax rate goes to something obscene - on /everything that falls over that bracket/. Your million and first dollar of income doesn't suddenly get those other million dollars taxed at 97%. IT'S taxed at that rate, as is your million and second, and so on.

No one is advocating that they give up everything; the current course of action, which ends in "the peasantry rises up, kills you, and takes your shit" will handle that just fine. We're advocating that they pay their fair share, which is a damn sight higher than the rest of us, as they directly gain more from the same social institutions.

>> No.19133609

That is one major act of terrorism away from being toilet paper and you know it. We already had mercs operating on american soil during Katrina. Historically, the major PURPOSE of a standing army was to shit on the peasantry.

I think being suspicious of the military and law enforcement in general is as important part of being a patriot as anything else.

>> No.19133615


I'm a pretty hard-leftie and even I don't buy that the Army is going to start shooting protestors as soon as the order comes down.


We had the guy fucking working for us before all this broke out. The US was just trying to get out of this without looking like hypocrites or chumps for talking about democracy and not walking the walk, or for calling for people to push for better leadership and not lifting a finger when they get slaughtered for trying. The Libyans shamed the US into acting, and it's heartening that the little guy can still do that.

That said, there's serious potential for corporate forces to hijack things, if they haven't already. The hard part's just beginning over there.

>> No.19133622

Also, see
Every member of the military swears an oath to defend the citizenry and the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. An oppressive government is a domestic enemy of both the people and the constitution.

>> No.19133624

Like the other guy said, when things reach the point where the people's options are "burn everything down, kill the property holders, and eat their skulls, what side does the military take, when "enemies domestic" now includes civilians?

>> No.19133629

>Look to OWS.
Let's not.

When it comes time to rail against the man and the system let's look to a group that made those around them say 'These people are right, things need to change.'

Not 'Hey Mike, get these assholes off my lawn.'

>> No.19133635


>> No.19133637

Have you ever READ the oath they swear?
They owe the civilian government JACK SHIT.
They serve THE PEOPLE and the constitution.

>> No.19133642


Seriously. Look "oh hey motivation"

look at preview posts "the army is sworn to protect blahblahblah" and somethings about leftists

has it ever struck anyone that /tg/ is more random than /b/ 100% of the time?

>> No.19133646


Guy from the "pretty-hard leftie" post here. NOW you're asking an interesting question, and I don't have an answer. Hopefully we won't have to find out.

>> No.19133648

>>I'm a pretty hard-leftie and even I don't buy that the Army is going to start shooting protestors as soon as the order comes down.

Then you need to learn your history better.


Labor movements in america were slaughtered in an orgy of ultraviolence by the military, cops, and private goons.

>> No.19133649

Actually, we got here by a natural conversational progression, it's just a very LONG progression.

>> No.19133655


We're more intellectual about it, though.

>> No.19133656

I think you don't really understand what you're talking about.

Many of these upper level monied individuals make their millions not out of greed, but as a side-effect of doing what they love. they will buy failing companies, spend years turning the companies around into successful industry standards, and then sell them and move on to other companies. It just happens that along the way they make money.

We no longer live in the age of hostile takeovers, when investors would buy a company, strip it of all it's worth, and sell it again. Such blind greed is a relic of the 80s.

>> No.19133660

It was raised as a point of concern by Nancy Pelosi sometime last year that returning veterans may be a "domestic terror threat" due to this oath. The secretary of state. I don't believe she raised any such concerns about enlisted men, but it seems a natural progression. I don't have a source on this, someone might.

>> No.19133666

What's wrong with us being an intellectual /b/?

>> No.19133676

Okay...yeah. I'm sure the Randroid libertarian utopia you're posting from is doing awesome.

Its not like one of the fucking canidates for president made his living as a goddamn corporate raider or anything, or that banks recently perpetuated the largest theft in the history of humanity or anything.

>> No.19133680


Again, those were armed unionists. I don't think the Army would gun down unarmed demonstrators on a large scale (isolated Kent State incidents are quite possible) but if regular folks have started going for their guns, that might certainly change their minds. I'm saying I don't see the Army participating in mass murder of activists as we're seeing in Syria, but cracking down hard on any attempt at armed revolution? Very possible. Something the Tea Party guns-keep-you-free, water-the-tree-of-liberty fags might want to think about.

>> No.19133697

Thing is, how many more failed OWS peaceful type stuff is going to happen before peaceful movements are no longer seen as worth the time?

>> No.19133704

That's when you turn on both and smack them down until they grow back some gods-damned common sense. Everyone cannot have everything, that's just a fact of the universe. I'm working in the oilfield now, we are ALWAYS understaffed, ALWAYS needing more people to work for us. Starting pay averages around $16/hour. But it's hard, slightly dangerous work. There are lots of well paying jobs and carreers out there, but none of it's easy, none of it's perfect.

That's life. If you don't like it, leave.

>> No.19133708

What about the entertainment industry?
You only need to look at the big video game publishers, Hollywood and hell even Games Workshop to see how corporate greed works there.
Why sell a product that will last 10 years when you can sell one that will last 1 and make up to 10 times the sales?
Few corporations are as idealistic as you would like them to be.

>> No.19133721


Again, a very, very good question.

>> No.19133722

Or we could revert to a hobbesian state of nature and make lives for the Haves a LOT worse than they are. People's rights, including economic justice, are fought for. TAKEN, from people like you who don't want to hand it out.

>> No.19133724

To comment on Kent State:
1: That was the national guard.
2: The only reason their rifles were even loaded was because they had been repositioned there after spending the past sixteen hours at a Teamsters rally after it nearly went violent, having shit thrown at them.
3: They'd been awake and standing in the heat for over twenty-four hours when the shooting occurred.
It was a horrible tragedy, but not a malicious act so much as a fuckup on the part of the individuals who ordered them in at all. The result of physically exhausted men coming down off of an adrenaline high panicking.They never should have been put in that situation.

>> No.19133738

What about the military and police being used to protect corporate strikebreaker goons and union-infiltrators who ARE malicious and violent?

>> No.19133748


I'm a civilianfag. National Guard vs Army, it's the same shit to me. They get sent to the same places. Only difference is sometimes the National Guard works on local natural disasters and shit. So please explain to me if there are meaningful distinctions for the purpose of who's-gonna-shoot-civilians-when.

Secondly, I agree that that was a panic thing, not an I'm-telling-you-to-shoot-soldier thing. But it wouldn't have happened except for the real heated atmosphere at the time.

>> No.19133762

So... wait.
According to Wikipedia, this is the U.S. Armed Forces oath of enlistment.
>"I, (name), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Where does it say anything about the people? Or is that just implied?

>> No.19133763

>Don't Panic

>captcha: ssetted 42

Even captcha agrees on the wisdom of these words.

>> No.19133773

NG aren't career, their primary means of money comes from other sources. Army do that shit for a fucking living, so they tend to be a little less retarded about it, and whoever did that should have been relieved of command, for they are unfit.

>> No.19133781

Essentially, they swear a different oath and aren't covered under Posse Comitatus.
Interestingly, the National Guard are actually what several of the signers of the Constitution referred to in their writings as a "special militia" which answers to the state instead of to their neighbors (The Colonial Militias were formed of every able bodied male within a specific age bracket and who did not have a moral or religious objection, and their officers were selected from among their number.) Especially funny since the NG constantly try to act like they're the modern version of the Colonial Militias, even though they're a separate entity formed in the early 1800s.

>> No.19133783

>>NG aren't career, their primary means of money comes from other sources.

To be fair, there are people who do it to double dip and get twice the pension. I.e., you go guard AND get another federal job as your day job, do 20 years at the same time, and get two pensions.

This may have changed lately, not sure.

>> No.19133788

You don't seem to realize it, but *your* type of viewpoint is the kind that keeps things from progressing, makes them stagnate, and leads to bad shit all around.

"I work hard to make my money. Most people who have money work hard to make it. People who don't work or don't have enough money are lazy."

First off, most of the top few percentage of the wealthy don't do jack all for work - they piggy-back on the backs of tens of thousands of employees, they take advantage of poorly-structured systems, or they flat out cheat their way into cash.

In the current economic state, jobs are not easy to get, despite experience, education, etc. You might have a job, but many people who try CONSTANTLY to find work, still can't get a job. This is simply not a healthy situation for a country to be in.

Even if you have a job, it's generally not enough. I live in Georgia; to pay rent/bills/living expenses for a passingly livable condition on your own, you would need to work 80+ hours per week at a minimum wage job. GA is only about midway on that curve; in worse places, it's nearly 120+ hours a week.

Change is absolutely necessary, but anyone in the country with real power (read: with enough money) resists that change with everything they have. It's the nature of the beast. And if the citizenry of the US were to take arms against the government and wealthy "elite," and the armed forces were to do *anything* to stop them, then it'd prove what I, and many others, have already thought for years - that the majority of those in the forces are nothing but tools.

>> No.19133802


You all raise understandable, if biased, concerns. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all corporations are precious benevolant entities, far from it. But the blind, across the board wipes so many seem to advocate will do nothing to advance our country, they will through us back.

If we were to revert to a Hobbesian nation, what do you honestly think would happen. If, at any point, what you have can be taken from you because someone charasmatic enough to get the mob behind them decided you have too much, why bother building anything? Look at communist russia, taking from one "for the good of all" never works, because whoever is redistributing the wealth will invariably become corrupt. It's hard wired into our DNA, it is impossible to consider more than 150-ish people true human beings, beyond that they become human shaped things. Beyond 150, you don't give a fuck what their hopes and dreams are, not really, you care more for your own sphere of 150.

>> No.19133807

>It was raised as a point of concern by Nancy Pelosi sometime last year that returning veterans may be a "domestic terror threat" due to this oath. The secretary of state.
>Nancy Pelosi
>Secretary of State
That's Clinton's job. Pelosi is the House Minority Leader.

>> No.19133818

Now you're just trying to justify being a voracious asshole who doesn't give a fuck about others.

>> No.19133827

That's not what is important, the important part is the level of training, and general discipline, unless it's Air Force. Not saying discipline is never a problem (in fact, it pretty much always is a problem), but active duty units tend to not fuck up in such spectacular ways.

>> No.19133829

So then you break down civilization into a shit-ton of small mostly-self-sustaining city-states of no more than 150 people.

>> No.19133836

And how do you handle trade between those city-states? How do you maintain a non-inbred population?

>> No.19133838

Haha. My dad used to be a captain of a national guard unit in the post-vietnam era, composed entirely of illiterate rednecks and mexican knife gangers from West San Antonio. Keeping them behaving well was apparently problematic.

>> No.19133847

Who decided on 150?
Communist Russia was hijacked by into Stalinist doctrines, it never reached the goal it was aiming for, the USSR was technically not even a true communist state.

>> No.19133854


I understand your bitterness. I don't agree with it or support it, and feel that you are attempting to pass blame for your own life on to someone else, but I understand.

I am not responsible for anyone else's lives or livelihoods. only my own. If I succeed or fail at my goals, it's on no one but me.

I am a sentient being, any action I take is my own resposbility The bullshit about "economic conditions" or home life while a child being a reason for someone's actions as an adult makes me mad. Any sentient being is capable of determining all the causes for their actions, and then taking steps to correct them.

>> No.19133855

His implication is any attempt at non-capitalism is a utopian dream and therefore we should bend over, grab our boot straps, and take it up the ass forever.

>> No.19133864


The most inspiring quote.

>> No.19133866

You are part of a society that's as much responsible and contributive to your actions as you are. You're not this lone free particle hovering in a sea of humanity. Attempting to deny this is simple selfishness. Your entire philosophy is "Fuck you, got mine."

>> No.19133872

Breaking down the protestant work ethic and helping people realize that individually, their chances for success are entirely randomized, is the most crucial part of actual economic reform.

>> No.19133878

Such a typically American standpoint to have, but he's not quite that bad.

>> No.19133886

>Who decided on 150?

>> No.19133887

You're dodging the point. Life isn't a single-player game. Every person you meet, and many, many, MANY people that you don't meet, influence your life and its outcome. I'm not the one shirking responsibility; YOU are shirking your social responsibility.

You, and others like you, live in a little bubble of self-importance, of "I do what's best for me, that's all I have to do" and say fuck everyone else, unless or until someone does something that harms your little sense of security, at which time THEN you take action, you try to right the wrongs.

Well wake the fuck up, because you are not the one who constructed that little bubble. There is an out-of-control government who did. And they've constructed one around each and every citizen in the country, and their systems are failing, and guess what, it's fucking smothering the people who already had it the worst.

But, you'll just stay there and be content and say to yourself "what's everyone getting so worked up about?" Until it happens to you. And if you dare blame the people who've already been through it, because I know what your type will say ("All those people who kept saying the country is shit have finally made it shit!") and when you do, I hope I'm the one there to stomp your teeth in.

>> No.19133888

>not some form of retarded Spehss mehreen speech.
Yeah, right, like anyone (particularly GW) will ever be inspired by that. Maybe your primitive brain doesn't understand the definition of inspiration? Oh well, I'm sure someone will try to inform you, but it won't be me.

>> No.19133892

I like people who know when its time to give up and keep going until they overdo it and ruin everything.

>> No.19133894

So it's meaningless isn't it?

>> No.19133899

Can I trust you to read past the first sentence or do you want me to spell out the entire thing for you?

>> No.19133906

>> No.19133911 [DELETED] 

This picture always makes me depressed.

>> No.19133915


No, because regardless of society's "influence" it is not difficult to identify such things, and counter-act them if I feel they are detrimental to what I want.

So actually yes, it is "Fuck you, I got mine" in a way. I don't care if society says I should or shouldn't work a certain way, I act as I feel is best.

Society is not the great be all end all of morality and wisdom.

I make $95,000 a year before taxes, and the hours I work average out to 12 hours every day for it. Society says I shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week, but so what? "Society" is an artificail construct of Hollywood. Your own soul is a better guide for living a happy and content life.

I have never said that it is wrong to protest or fight to change something that is injust. You are resposible for your ownlife and actions however, noone else is.

>> No.19133917

This image always makes me sad.

>> No.19133918

You're still a winner in my book!

>> No.19133922

That's because you are fake and dead on the inside.

>> No.19133924

Fine, fine. I'll go read the references.

>> No.19133925


>> No.19133931


> taking from one "for the good of all" never works

Russia gets brought up as an example of this all the time, and it's the most extreme case. Much of Europe redistributes some of the wealth, rather than all, and has had very good luck with it. Germany isn't in the shit we're in now, and I've heard France referred to as "the Soviet Union that succeeded." I'd argue most libfags are looking far more at Western/Northern Europe as a model than at the USSR.

>> No.19133936


Original confused civvie here. That makes sense. Thanks guys.

>> No.19133941

Hi, V
Welcome to the conversation.
Develop an opinion that wasn't spoonfed to you by mass-media, then talk to us,

>> No.19133942

Hrmm, since we're somewhat on topic, have there every been any true anarchist states past the Napoleonic era outside of Revolutionary Catalonia?
Or a true communism for that matter?

>> No.19133949

>> No.19133953

Well then, when the crowds come bustin in through your window to carve your shitkicker ass up with machetes, I guess it won't be anyones fault but your own.

"Let them eat cake" ain't a good response to social inequality, just so you know.

>> No.19133957

Please, more ad hominem, I can't ever get enough of that.

And do you really find it so unbelievable that someone can come to these conclusions on their own? For fucks sake, I've never even seen V for Vendetta, nor do I care to, exactly because I don't really give a fuck what points the media want to make.

>> No.19133962


You gotta realize, there's something quintessentially American about this worldview, the idea that, as Thatcher (a Brit of all people) would say, "There is no such thing as society". I'm almost tempted to argue the opposite, that there's no such thing as the individual, that the basic unit of society is something larger than that, but I think there's gotta be a balance. We're such functionally social creatures, though, that considering the whole has to count for something. If we were individuals the way, say, tigers are individuals, your argument would make more sense, but intelligent tigers would make a society that is probably very, very different from our own. You're totally entitled to your view on this, but it's probably the biggest single thing I felt alienated from in the US. Left for Canada about two years ago.

>> No.19133965

>>So actually yes, it is "Fuck you, I got mine" in a way. I don't care if society says I should or shouldn't work a certain way, I act as I feel is best.

>> No.19133977

My offer to kick your teeth in still stands.

>> No.19133979

Overthrow the king they said.
Everything will be better they said.

>> No.19133985

Here's the thing, bloody revolution NEVER makes things better.

However, the shittier things get, the more inevitable it becomes. Its something we should be trying to HEAD OFF, instead of what people like >>19133915
Say, which is basically "come at me bro"

>> No.19133987

>> No.19133998

The problem is bloodless revolutions rarely work as intended even if they work better than bloody ones and far fewer succeed.

>> No.19134021

There will be bloody revolutions for as long as, and only for as long as, people refuse to realize that purposefully fucking up a system of rule for your own benefit, without trying to fix it for the general populace, is going to mean a large number of people who at some point will be angry enough to stab you repeatedly and with force.

>> No.19134027

There are levels. The American revolution managed to avoid descending into total savagry. Then again, I've read convincing arguments that the American revolution was closer to a civil war than an actual revolt.

(The difference being, in a revolt, the poor and/or middle class fight the rich and/or middle class, in a civil war, chunks of rich people, middle class people, and poor people team up to fight enemy groups of rich,poor, etc people from the same group. The American "revolution" was closer to the latter)

>> No.19134029


You clearly don't have a very firm grasp on the quote you're referencing there.

The let them eat cake line was not a blind refusal to acknowledge their inequality, it was literally a stupid dumb blonde not understanding the situation.

But that's beside the point.

Why should anyone ever strive to do more than the bare minimum if the fruits of their labors are going to get taken away from them anyway? Why should my uncle plant all 150 acres of land he works and pays the government a lease on if he's only going to be allowed to keep 75 acres worth of grain? Especially since he can't find anyone to stay on and work as a hand full time anyway.

If he will only gain any benefit from 75 acres, that's all he's going to do. I know for a fact he would rather spend that time at home with my aunt. The only problem with tht is that if he's not growing as much now, there's less food for everyone else. And no one else has bothered to learn how to work the land. My cousins all went to college for computer programming and such.

Now, take that analogy and expand it a thousand fold. That is the eventual result of any widespread redistribution of wealth. I understand that when you guys are ranting and railing against corporations and big business, you're mainly referring to the financial and entertainment industries. But they aren't the ones that the laws will hurt the most. They aren't the true iron of the refusals on this. THe strongest oppositions to these sorts of sweeping changes are in the blue collar fields, because they will be the ones getting hurt. They are the ones watering the fields and lubing your engines with their blood and sweat so that you can be fed and have electricity while you dram of kicking peoples' windows in for caring about themselves more than the faceless mob.

>> No.19134037

Here's the thing, with enough automation and distribution of widespread wealth...what's WRONG with people who don't want to work being fed and cared fore. What's WRONG with only the people who like to work producing enough for everyone else?

You buy into the lie that people need the whipcrack of economic wage slavery over their heads in order to function.

>> No.19134042

People's desire for civil war or revolt will be substantially weakened when they realize that the weapons we use overseas can be just as easily used in the States.

It loses a lot of its romantic flair when your "wolverines" get spotted and blown into writhing masses covered in shrapnel by a guided missile by a drone miles outside possible view.

We're seeing wars against organized and dedicated militias, much more gritty and much more experienced than our homegrown chickenhawks. We're seeing our capability to kill them be hardly unchecked. Imagine how it will be when the government feels genuinely threatened.

>> No.19134043

I can't be the only person in this thread who agrees with >>19133915.

I'm not about to claim that "Society never did anything for me", but I will sign on to this idea: Society does some fucked up shit. Look at North Carolina. Look at countries that suppress religious and political beliefs. Fuck those guys. What's stopping our society from becoming any different? Just because we live in a (relatively) great place right now doesn't mean we always will. I can't speak for "society".

But I CAN speak for myself. I know what I consider to be right. And I'll defend that perception. Not only that, but I'll defend ANYONE who stands their ground for themselves (provided they aren't defending ridiculous beliefs).

And y'know what's the best part? If I truly fuck up, someone with the same mindset will stop me.

I wanna thank you, man. But instead, I'll just remember you next time I start losing faith in people.

>> No.19134054

Okay, to anyone who doubted the gov't wouldn't open fire on protestors? Imagine several thousand Joes with attitudes just like this guy, stroking themselves over the idea of watching americans be torn apart by explosions and auto weapons fire.

>> No.19134062

Probably won't be the government, but some scared rookie who flips out.

>> No.19134065

>>Okay, to anyone who doubted the gov't wouldn't open fire on protestors? Imagine several thousand Joes with attitudes just like this guy, stroking themselves over the idea of watching americans be torn apart by explosions and auto weapons fire.

so basically Blackwatch from Prototype?

>> No.19134068

It's a little sad that when you run out of logical arguments you resort to empty threats.

Though if you really want to try, bring your sorry ass to the boardwalk in Bossier City, Louisiana at noon on May 25. I'll meet you on the river viewing platform outside the Buffalo Wild Wings. That's the only time I have time for the next 6 months though, as I'll be drilling oil wells after that.

If you're willing to truly back up your pissant arguments with violence, bring it on. I will defend my views to the death.

>> No.19134079

What's WRONG with that is that it is nothing but another form of slavery. "Oh, you want to insure a good life for your family, even after you die? Well then you'll take care of these people who don't feel resposible for their own lives."

>> No.19134087

>"Society is fucked up, and I don't like it, so I'm just gonna go do my own thing"

Just realize that eventually, all that fucked-up-ness is gonna reach you too. Meanwhile, there are people who actually want to change it *now*, before it gets even worse.

Yes, there's a lot to be said about personal responsibility; but the guy you're looking up to up there, is all about personal responsibility concerning only personal matters. You know that quote, "They came for the ______. I did not stop them because I was not a ______." Well he's the kinda guy who will be standing, dumbfounded at the end, when he's left and there's no one there to stand by him. Because not only has he been spouting things about not caring about the other portions of society, he's made comments indicating deliberately ignoring the problems we are presented with.

Whether you like it or not, you are a part of society. You will never NOT be a part of society. And the things you do WILL influence society. If you want to be a responsible adult, you will be responsible not only for your decisions on how things affect your life, but how things affect the people around you. The man you replied to is not a responsible adult.

>> No.19134093

>>"Oh, you want to insure a good life for your family, even after you die? Well then you'll take care of these people who don't feel resposible for their own lives."

Congrats, you now understand the basic principle of civilization and the social contract.

>> No.19134099

Win or lose, I'd throw down on you just to prove a point. But I don't have the money to waste to get there, nor will I have the time off. Remember the thing I said about having to work 80+ hour weeks? Yeah.

You can fuck off all the same.

>> No.19134104


It's just realism. Nothing enjoyable about it. No one outside of the mentally damaged are "stroking" themselves about it.

Look at Kent State - US National Guard firing on students. After the incident, the majority of those polled blame the students. The men who were indicted got off on a settlement payed by the government. Noone cared - it only really inflamed a mob already angry about the war, but did not create new incidents.

Who do you think people are going to blame? How will the discussion be controlled and disseminated? How does new technology increasingly specialize warfare? These are the kinds of questions that bring internal revolution in the U.S. to a halt.

>> No.19134108

Dammit, so the two ex-Navy seal ranger social warriors are NOT going to have a battle to the death on a riverboat?

>> No.19134117

And kent state was widely regarded as a giant clusterfuck that defined an entire goddamn era. If it became SOP, things would go down the shitter. When the govt openly goes full syria, what does the populace have to lose?

>> No.19134138


That analogy only works at scales and in scenarios where wealth correlates to effort/work in some meaningful way. At high incomes in this country, it really doesn't. When people are getting $300 million golden parachutes from running companies into the ground and shit, things are out of hand, and there isn't some effort-related behavior we can't afford to dissuade involved. And that's an extreme example, but I refuse to believe a corporate suit acting as a parasite on financial transactions makes ten times what a hospital janitor keeping people from getting infections makes because he's working harder and creating more value. That's horse shit.

>> No.19134146

This. Paychecks have little to nothing to do with the actual value the work produces. The fundamental error in his thinking is believing people get what they deserve.

>> No.19134149


Dude, I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what slavery is. Sometimes you have to do your chores for the rest of the household in order to get your new Game Boy. That's life. Like the guy below you said, social contract.

>> No.19134157


When you said oil I hoped you were an Albertafag :( Louisiana's a bit of a drive for me too

>> No.19134159

Despite what you apparently think, I have been there. There was a point where I was surviving on $600 a month. I have worked and clawed to get where I am now. It's absolutely possible, you just have to be willing to sacrifice and risk everything you have. I shouldn't have to share what I tore muscles, broke bones, bled and almost died twice inorder to earn, just because you say you feel you deserve some. You don't make enough at your minimum wage job? Find a better one, make connections, kiss ass, do whatever it takes. THAT is how you get a head, not by crying over your bad fortune. If you have kids you have to take care of, boo-fucking-hoo. No one forced you to have them.
I know, right? I was looking forward to tossing him in the red river.

>> No.19134164


The issue here is the manner in which the event will be portrayed. Kent State is important in showing that human beings, when threatened, will pursue their survival - it's a truism, but an important point when considering the reaction of armed forces to anti-government paramilitary groups. Additionally important is the largely ambivalent reaction to what was the murder of civilians.

Moreover, the government doesn't need to go 'full syria', and that won't be the portrayal either. You're far more likely to see measures created to 'protect citizenry' (which will have that as a tertiary effect) and pre-emptively strike 'high value targets'.

And as described above, the movement loses any sort of heady notions of romanticism - if it will stay cohesive it will likely do so in the realm of fanaticism (something evinced by militia groups overseas). After all, the suicide bomber is not the result of Islam but rather a desperate attempt to strike in a meaningful way against an unbeatable foe. Militant Islam is simply the fabric of fanaticism that the stereotype bomber is clothed in - it could just as easily be anything else appropriate to a region or conflict (something seen in Chechen outfits, as well as in Africa, both of which share similar "underdog" militias).

>> No.19134176

fuck. So NO ONE is going to go down to Louisiana so they can have a knife fight on a riverboat deck while wearing gambler's clothes?

>> No.19134189

Saying its almost impossible to occur seems to me like the sort of hubris that allows it to occur.

>> No.19134204

Your escape from that situation was based entirely on luck and the society which dragged you out of your pit.

>> No.19134205


Our point is you shouldn't HAVE to struggle like that just to fucking get by in one of the richest countries in the world. We've messed up how we've arranged things if so many people are having to do that. It's this whole Protestant-work-ethic strain of our culture that makes it a moral virtue to be some employer's bitch. It's dumb.

>> No.19134213

the STRUGGLE is the most important part. Its what separates actual Americans from welfare queens and other parasites.

>> No.19134214

I'm... failing to understand what you're saying here. Mind explaining?

Someone else thinking the exact same thing!

>> No.19134217

Yes, and the form that social contract takes is currency. There is reason for someone who contributes nothing to society to be supported by it. That isn't a symbiotic relationship, it's a parasitic one. Being required to give up a portion of what you earn so that someone else does not have to earn anything is parasitic. We aren't talking about people who aren't being paid what they deserve, we are talking about people who just don't want to work. That's absolutely unacceptable. By your own social contract they should receive nothing anyways, because they contribute nothing.

>> No.19134226


It's not almost impossible in occurrence, but in success it is highly improbable. Hubris would be stating some binary outcome of something one way or the other. However, one can use historical evidence and analyze current events and conflicts to come to a rational conclusion.

>> No.19134231

That is a awesome mental image, and in honor of this rather interesting thread, thrown into my next campaign.

And is it one guy arguing with Magos here, or more than one?

>> No.19134233

This. I have no problem helping someone who is atually trying to improve their life. But the person who thinks it should just be handed to them for free needs to go fuck themselves with a cactus.

>> No.19134236


Being human is sufficient, and most people desire to create things, even if not in the template of an ordered work environment.

Most people can contribute, just not necessarily in an industrial work-for-pay method. Its just we're holding work-for-pay as the only way to measure it.

>> No.19134241

Don't project your entirely self-centered thought processes onto me. It makes me feel dirty.

You regurgitate some of the most typical arguments I've ever seen.

>"I don't want you taking my money."
Guess what, the government already taxes you. What people want isn't for you, at your little $95k a year, to pay more. They want the people who basically sit in an office and rake in millions a year without doing a pennies worth of work, and the people who sit on a fat bank account and make tons of untaxed interest, to start contributing their fair share. People should get what they earn, and that shit isn't *earning* anything at all.

>"I've been in rough positions too, I had to..."
This isn't a crusade because I've been on hard times. People across the country are on hard times, and it's because the few at the top, are bilking society, while the majority in the middle, are content to sit idly by, and the ever-increasing lower class gets shit on day by day. The system is not right, and it is up to us to fix it, and people like you don't help that at all.

>"You can find a better job, you can...."
Flatly stated, it's not that simple, and you can not be dense enough to really believe "If you try your best, you can do anything!" Life is not a Disney movie. It's a reality people face every day now in this country.

Simply put, you're so far into a state of denial that you can't imagine it to be any other way, for any other person, than the way it is for you.

>> No.19134246

There's multiple of us arguing with him. Some staring in disbelief. Others face palming, others physically threatening him, most of us disappointed the fight wont actually occur...

>> No.19134269

And it's not just me here on my side, I'm just the only one who's bothering to to namefag.

>> No.19134277

It's mostly me. Tripping for convenience.

And knife-fights on river boats in Louisiana are a luxury that I can't afford at the moment.

>> No.19134283

Being human isn't anything special. All it means is that we're a sentient animal, capable of deciding for ourselves whether or not we approve of the actions others expect of us.

>> No.19134284

Ok. Third party here, lemme see if I can present each sides viewpoint in a neatly summarized, unbiased bit. (Expect failure.)

Magos: Work hard for what you want, and rip what is yours from the uncaring masses around you, you are responsible for your own destiny?

Anons: Society is responsible for the opportunity and wealth that is available to you, and that society must be well for the individual to function?

Side Discussion: Will Armed forces put down American protesters, if the situation calls for it?

Honestly not trying to trivialize or marginalize anyone, but this is interesting as all hell, and I'm sleep deprived.

>> No.19134294

>>Side Discussion: Will Armed forces put down American protesters, if the situation calls for it?

I think it more "American forces WILL put down protestors, but what will be the trigger event"?

>> No.19134295

From what the Anons have said, the individual doesn't even have to function and society shouldn't respect the individual to do anything at all.

>> No.19134298


>> No.19134299

Start a kickstarter. I demand video of two fa/tg/uys knife fighting in Louisiana.

>> No.19134303

You were off on the one I was representing. It would more accurately be something along the lines of,

Make your own place in life through whatever means, but you have a degree of accountability to society around you, up to and including the enforcement of accountability of others.

Magos over here seems to believe that somehow translates into "take all our money and feed welfare queens."

>> No.19134321

Function in a traditional Work-for-Pay method. People being human, naturally do stuff, like help the family put up the shingles or watch their niece for the afternoon or work on garage project X for the weekend. We're just saying there's value to be found in human activity other than "show up at 7am and pull that lever 10 hours a day, five days a week, for the rest of your life"

>> No.19134358

Dissonance there misunderstands. I have never argued against some sort of reforms, I simply argued against the widespread redistribution of wealth, since some of the Anons seem to think that taking money from those who have it and simply giving it to those who don't will solve anything.

Currently, for every 7 days I work, a little bit over 2 days of that goes to the government. And people want to take more from me? I know people who have been on unemployment for years, I did everything I could for these people, incurring debts with people who work in the industry around me, finding them jobs, and they refused to put forth the tiny bit of effort it would require to take them, cause the jobs sounded too hard, or too dangerous.

I hate the welfare queens with a fiery, fiery passion. But I have, and will continue to go to bat for anyone who approaches me seriously interested in working and getting ahead.

I believe in helping people to help themselves.

Or, in analogy: I will not give a man a fish, but I will teach him how.

>> No.19134366

Well, I am apparently a fool, but I think its a good idea to be able to quickly, and easily express your viewpoint.

And then break into multi-thread long arguments, god I love /tg/ sometimes.

Still demanding a knife fight.

>> No.19134368


In a way you've hit the nail on the head here, in that you've made the connection between working hard and identity in American culture. I'm not sure it's a healthy one, but it's definitely there.


Albertafag here. I wasn't actually intending to fight the guy, I'm pretty meek, although I would have been amused if someone else did and would have liked to see it.


That's not how tripping works.


The free rider problem is real, but it's not a good excuse for leaving people who are legitimately in bad shape hanging. I seriously don't think most poor folks are poor because they're lazy. And I think that idea has racial roots in many cases, frankly. I recall someone on 4chan writing the line "I don't want to work so Jamal can stay home and drink forties." I thought it was particularly telling. And it's worth noting that people who feel hopelessly beset upon by the system, who've given up/in, can we really attribute their inactivity to a character flaw? And hell, if we have our wages so low that welfare's better than working, the problem isn't the welfare being too generous.

>> No.19134391

All of the things you mentioned ARE traditional work-for-pay roles. Roofers make great money. And if person X is helping out person Y, but neither one of them ever interact with person Z, why should person Z have to pay for person X? What you describe is a world where individual talents are devalued. The "everyone's special, everyone's important" world. Unfortunantly, the real world's not like that. It takes effort to be among the best at anything. There is always going to be someone else who's trying a little harder than you. No skill is innate, however, any skill, once you choose to put the necessary effort into it, can be turned into a career. Just maybe not the one you feel you deserve. But nothing about life is fair, it's not some game or sitcom where everything works out in the end.

>> No.19134393

Wealth redistribution doesn't inherently mean giving out freebies to every grasping hand.

A man sits in an office... well, sometimes. Other times he's out playing golf. Other times he's on a yacht, or at home. But he's always getting paid. Underneath him, are various tiers of employees - the further down on the pyramid you go, the lower the wages, and the greater the workload, until at the very end, you've got tens of thousands of people, busting their asses, making $200 a week. While at the top, you've got a man who is on near-eternal vacation, making $100,000 a week.

Around them, you've got a society with a crumbling infrastructure, controlled by people who make a career out of getting into office (not actually doing anything), who are being paid under the table so that, guess who, Mr. Vacation up there can make even more money, while not only does he not contribute ANYTHING to society, he actively deteriorates the foundation of what makes the country work for anyone who can't do the same thing.

And there are plenty of these people. And I'm saying that this tier of people can afford to lose a much greater portion of their money, for the good of the country that allows them to make that money in the first place.

It has nothing to do with handouts.

>> No.19134414


Exactly. Capitalism the way we've been doing it, it's consuming itself from a free rider problem just the same as the Soviet Union the right likes to bring up so often in defense of capitalism. The only thing that's different is the free riders are at the top and have a stranglehold on the government in our case, rather than simply being numerous at the bottom like in the Soviet case. We've gotta find a third way, a middle way.

>> No.19134419

This is my final post for the night, and my view on the "giving up under the system" bullshit. Life is pain, and suffering, and joy, and peace. Quiting because something's too hard is the excuse of something that doesn't deserve to live, and by natural law shouldn't.

>> No.19134427

eh, namefagging then. forgot to input a tripcode. Can't be assed to now.

A follow up to this post - I don't support the welfare system. I do support the idea of having a social safety net, because everyone deserves some piece of mind if things hit a rough spot. The welfare system has become too easily abused. But once again, that's not what this is about.

Our government is supposed to serve the people of the country. We have been in a ridiculous economic recess lately, because they have not been doing their job. They have been pandering to people with money, but meanwhile the citizenry has fallen on hard times.

What's our government doing about it? Funding further incursions in war. Further limiting our freedoms (that it was supposed to be protecting). Dodging the problems over and over. Making themselves money.

The problem I have with you, and people like you, is you're willing to just ride it out. Let shit happen, and have nothing to do with it until you have no choice. And you don't seem to realize, that if there weren't so many people who were like that in the first place, the country may have never gotten this far into the sinkhole.

>> No.19134469

Where the fuck do you get the idea that I'm not doing something about it? Just because some anons posted some gods-awful ideas about violent revolution, and I think stripping people of their wealth is idiotic and sets a bad precedent, that doesn't mean I think nothing should be done. Like our late-comer Anon said, the better answer is a middle ground somewhere in between. Personally I think a ratio pay cap would be the right answer, that way, if a company becomes extremely successful, the owner still benefits from it, and has reason to try to do better, as do the emplyees. Say the CEo of walmart decides he wants a raise or a bonus, he should have to give everyone below him a proportionate one. We shouldn't say "You're only allowed to become this wealthy and no further" We should encourage people to aim as high as possible, it should just mean bringing everyone below up with them.

>> No.19134488

>So actually yes, it is "Fuck you, I got mine" in a way.

>> No.19134511

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