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[ERROR] No.18688263 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Currently playing 40k as I type this. I play orkz and ive about had it with this bullshit. everyone plays bullshit chaos and grey knights which is what im facing currently. they set up the field against me and then found a way around my scout moves. ive had it with this system, it only favors the space marines.

>> No.18688598

Cheer the fuck up and play some 2e, bro. The GK player will love it because Grey Knight Terminators are the most powerful unit in the game. The Chaos player will love it because 2e Chaos is fucking amazing, with cults and daemonworlds and so on.
You'll love it because save modifiers and outnumbering modifiers and also Orks are bonkers.
Or quit playing.
Either way, you're right, 5th edition is a shit game.

>> No.18688864

Orks getting beat by MARINES, of all armies

That's a gas and a half.

>> No.18688935

OP lets see your list maybe we can tell you why you are a shitty person.

>> No.18689047

At least you have a 5th edition codex, try Tau, God, they even have a 10 point upgrade that DOES NOTHING.

>> No.18689470

The easy answers for you.

Gorkamorka and also Gangs of NuOrk.

40k and fantasy have both fallen to pieces for me over the last 5-6 years with many changes to the core rules I have disliked and problems with army books too.

My Fantasy playing was easily the hardest hit as for the few years before I gave up I was a Beastman and Wood Elf player, the two armies which have without doubt been most fucked over by recent changes.

>> No.18689479

>> No.18689528

Tau are the only army in the game with no active strategies. They can ONLY react.
They need a real dedicated assault unit to apply pressure.

>> No.18689570

What upgrade is it?

>> No.18689576

>5th edition codex


The Ork codex has a lot more in common with Eldar or Chaos than it does anything from 5th.

OP, 40k is certainly a cluster-fuck of mehreen/imperial bias right now. My major bit of advice to give, would be to send you to The-Waaagh.com forums. those guys are total bro-tier ork players. They'll help you out. Tell them Grog sent you.

>> No.18689598

While kroot aren't a dedicated assault unit, they're a damned good versatile unit to have.

>> No.18689613

Not that older editions didn't have their problems but for Fantasy 4th to 7th ed all had their charms until the tail end of 7th threw up rediculous shite like Daemons of Chaos, then 8th just went way overboard on monsters, magic, and randomness.

For 40k, 2nd was good but had problems with larger sized games (not an issue I had as I liked smaller battles, or better yet Necromunda), 3rd and 4th had their ups and downs when it came to army rules but the basics were fun regardless of the game being simpler than 2nd or indeed Fantasy.
5th edition threw up lots of stuff I couldn't stand the most obvious one being the "true line of sight" crap. In a game with units of models you simply cannot take away abstract terrain.

Of course all these problems were compounded by the fact that until recently I only had a GW store to play in so you HAD to use the latest official rules.

>> No.18689651

>rediculous shite

>> No.18689689

He's actually on the ball with his assessment of Fantasy.

6th and 7th were when the game was at it's best... until *THAT BOOK* came out... then it went to hell in a hand-basket.

40k 2nd ed was 'excessive rules mode', and 3rd was a busted system. But 3.5's trial assault rules fixed a lot of problems, and 4th was overall *playable and fun*. 5th however... I agree with him. You need to be playing some loyalist faction, Dark Elfdars, or Walking Toasters to really enjoy 5th.

>> No.18689695

>everyone plays chaos
>bullshit chaos
Im the only person who plays chaos where i game, where the hell do you live? And how is chaos bullshit? The only thing that i can find bullshit in chaos is zerkers. Everything else can be wiped easily.
Trick out your nobs or some shit god damn.

>> No.18689709

The problem is they apply no pressure, like a good command squad or any dedicated assault squad will do.
Your opponent won't move away from them or devote large resources to them.

The only thing Tau have as pressure is a kind of reverse pressure, where they draw enemy assault units towards the big guns. But that doesn't really help as that's EXACTLY where the enemy normally wants to be anyways, and EXACTLY what they want to kill.

>> No.18689753

>doesn't realize that dread bash/deffrolla orks are one of the top tournament armies in the game
>is a stupid whiny babby noob that thinks marines are actually OP

>> No.18689771

Chaos do have *some* bullshit, but the codex is certainly a pile of shit. Zerkers aren't anything new, though. The big 'bullshit-tier' item in Chaos, is the Lash of Submission, especially if you're playing a non-imperial or non-Craftworld army (in other words, no psychic defense).

Deathguard are a huge exception to your 'wiped easily' claim, however... They're probably the most solid MEQ infantry unit in the whole damn game right now.

>> No.18689780

This. Chaos (daemons or marines) are 4th edition codices, and waaaaaay down in the tier list.
>they set up the field against me
Wait, so the problem is actually the way your opponents set up the terrain? That doesn't sound like a system problem...

>> No.18689837

I grew up with a 2ndhand copy of the 3rd rulebook, and am honestly curious: What was busted with it? (I know Tau had some bullshit with Fish of Fury, Rhino rushing was an issue, and something about vehicles being deathtraps, but that's about it)

Not him, but I'd hazard he's referring to the Command & Control node system, which lets you use this model's Ld for Target Priority tests for shooting with units within 12".

Although imo there are a metric shitton of upgrades that are nearly as useless:
Shield generator when the drone is 5 pts cheaper (Yes I know about how it affects the 25% shooting tests, but still)
Vectored retro thrusters (Not bad if it wasn't fucking special-issue and limited in number over the entire army)
Ejection System (Again, would be way better if not special issue or if pistol wasn't shite)
Failsafe detonator (too expensive, and no AP?!)

And of course, the Space Pope's existence drags the entire codex down as well.

>> No.18689870

The only reason Orks are performing decently in the tournament scene, is because they go completely against the tournament meta.

A Dreadbash or Battlewagon-Blitz completely fucks over lists that are geared towards dealing with the 'typical' MEQ/IG mechanized spam.

When people build their list to deal with either the Battlewagon or Dreadbash Ork lists, they fail... hard. But to do that you need to either pack 2x as much melta and ordnance (blitz), or predominantly Autocannons, scatter laser, or missile launchers.

>> No.18689929

I would argue that Plague Marines are pretty damn hard to shift as well, especially if they can sit on an objective. Not so great at offense from what I've heard though, so not sure if you were referring to a tough all-round MEQ.

Compared to the older codexes, they are OP (mainly by being way undercosted).

>> No.18689952

playing your tau wrong son. play withe the understanding that close combat is game over, play keep away with what you can, and have every transport busted turn 1/2. the real problem with tau is they have one viable list (suit spam) but that is so over priced and easy to kill. i had a space yiff army table me by split firing with insta kill missile fire. tau needs t5 suits, bs4, special weapon options on fire warriors, and burning vespid and making them go away. who ever geenlighted the rules for vespid deserves to be shot. "hey lets make a unit that is a dedicated marine killer, but cant assault, cant hit reliably, and has to operate within range of a counter assault to fire their overly expensive guns that wont hit shit.

>> No.18689972

The Rhino Rush (being able to deploy from a moving close-topped vehicle and charge) was the biggest problem, as it gave Blood Angels a potential 26" charge (12" move, + chance to move an additional 6", + 2" diesmbark, + 6" assault).

The other problem, was winning an assault and chasing off your opponent meant you moved an additional 2d6", which could be used to contact into combat and count as charging on the next turn.

>> No.18690001


Oh yeah 3rd ed 40k was busted, but I still had fun with it.

Most of the time.

I do remember exploding with rage to the extent I had to leave the shop to calm down once though.

I had a Khorne Rhino Rush army using ... *shudder* ... the Jervis Johnson Chaos Codex. Very simple army, point and click, but you had to pick the right time to make that click and it was fun for a quick wee skirmish.

Played against a blood angels army. I quickly learned that everything my Khorne army could do BAs could do better and more fitting to a Khorne theme than I could.

I think the straw that broke me was when my Khorne Lord charged his Chaplain, all his attacks bounced off the 4+ crozius save and he was then smashed to the floor cause Chaos had no option that gave invulnerable saves...AND the Chaplain was less points.

>> No.18690032

>Compared to the older codexes, they are OP (mainly by being way undercosted).

No they aren't. They're actually overcosted for how shitty their infantry is now. Ork boys should be 8pts a model, and at least chopppa/sluggas should be Initiative 3. Hell a generic Choppa should make them I+1.

Being an "always strikes last army" with no survivability, and Fearless problems (No Retreat!) is what fucks over the Orks so goddamned hard, that Shootas became the god-tier troll unit they are now. Really the Shootas and Wound-Allocation bullshit nobs are what is keeping the army's performance up.

>> No.18690037


Blood Angel 3rd ed bullshite mind.

>> No.18690066

Oh, I agree orks are overcosted/underpowered. I was refuting the claim that marines aren't OP. Sorry for the confusion.

>> No.18690097

It wasn't until the Trial Assault rules that the blood angel bullshit was toned back down to 'enjoyable game' levels again.

Hell Blood Angels have always been 'cheat-to-win' bait. 5th isn't any exception, as the codex certainly tries hard to be troll-tier rage-bait. But the current writers just aren't up to Gav's level of jack-assery. Oh they're close... but Gav's 40k work was truly rage-worthy.

>> No.18690127

ahh, nevermind then. My mistake.

Though vanilla marines IMO are actually priced about right. It's the GK and GreyHunters that are substantially lower than they should be (for what they have/do).

>> No.18690167


You had Gav at one end of the spectrum, and Jervis at the other.

>> No.18690170

Command and control node
Special issue: All friendly units whitin 12" may use the bearer's leadership for the purposes of Target Priority Tests

Also Drones are count when determining the size of the squad, so a Battlesuit whit 2 drones, when the drones die (and shield drones are taken for that) the battlesuit "unit" is broken and unable to regroup unless you spend 15 points on a bonding knife.

Still i like the looks of them and love the str 5 pulse rifles.

>> No.18690284

That you did... until JJ's personal pet army got a codex... Space Wolves. They initially were quite troll-tier, but balanced out over 3rd and held steady in the middle of the pack throughout even 4th.

Yeah... Jervis is sadly the epitome of "biased rule-design". One look at his emphasis in Specialist-Games leaves no shadow of a doubt to that fact. Epic's saving grace is the game is so goddamned awesome and balanced to make up for it, but otherwise suffers from similar 'army bias'. Mostly in the case of the IG getting separate unit rules for the slightest variation to something, while meanwhile all the old Ork variation units were just lumped up as "count this as -X-". Other armies got the same treatments. It'd be game-crippling, if it all wasn't so well balanced with such a huge emphasis on actual raw tactics and strategies.

>> No.18690342

>"hey lets make a unit that is a dedicated marine killer"
>overly expensive

That has been the single, crippling factor to the failure of so many units in the game... see other fine examples like "Storm Troopers", "Thousand Sons", "Flash-Gitz", etc.

>> No.18690487

You're an idiot.
That's all there really is to say on the matter.

>> No.18690573

What's your justification for that? He said suit spam is basically the only viable tournament-level list and gets fucked over by ID weapons. Seems a reasonable complaint to me...

>> No.18690621

>Insults the above player for "playing wrong"
>Never addresses the lack of pressure issue
>Bitches about ID dropping his suits when he should have proper cover and ablative drones.

>> No.18690798

I agree on your first two points, but

>Bitches about ID dropping his suits when he should have proper cover and ablative drones.

This is assuming you can find a <6" deep cover that actually grants a cover save, since jumping into/out of terrain every turn is a stupid risk.


>ablative drones

Are you serious or trolling? The squad size of 3 means a single goddamn drone will cause a panic test, and thanks to the piss-poor 8 Ld, that's a check they're going to fail 25% of the time. That's retarded, especially when it panics the elite backbone unit of your damn army. It'd be like if marine squads were required to take guardsmen in order to survive, and panicked a quarter of the time when a guardsman was blown away.

>> No.18690897

Bitching about cover?
>Not just jumping behind your goddamn vehicles

Really NEED to have that Ld buff?
>Not running superior 2Cri1Dro teams in lower points
>Not investing in Shadowsun in 2000+ lists for 36" LD10 bubble

You have no right to complain at all against the former, and the option is there to fix the latter.

>> No.18691044

Alright, I concede the vehicles point (Although the d-fish to shield the suits is a hell of a point sink), but reducing your squad to 2cri1drone drops your -only- reliable source of anti-MEQ.

Plus shadowsun comes with her own drones and can't be shielded by burying her in another squad. You get to either use her in a deep-strike fusion-gun blaze of glory (and lose the Ld10 bubble since she'll likely get smoked on the following shooting phase), or have her sit there with her thumb up her ass providing a 175pt LD boost and fuck-all otherwise.

>> No.18691058

i you really wanna screw the marine players, run Kan wall. Player at my lgs does this. universally hated, but he wins regularly.

>> No.18691109

>Not running superior 2Cri1Dro teams in lower points
YFW my veteran guardsmen have BS 4 and 3 Meltas or your armor are hit by a LRBT, more than 1 wound and that unit is going down.

>Not investing in Shadowsun in 2000+ lists for 36" LD10 bubble
more like 18" read your codex again

>> No.18691211

I'm not recommending Shadowsun unless you really hate the LD problems. She is a viable way around them, and Tau have fuckall to take outside COMMAND SQUADS to fill those later high level points.

But Shadowsun is not a bad model. She works best in a single castle, where your opponent must come to you and can't really shoot her long range. Again, huge pointsink for LD, but the option is there.

>Implying I'm trying to make Tau out as better than guards
That shit is the LEAST of my problems against guard. Not that you'd get your vets NEAR my suits thanks to proper walling with vehicles and Kroot and the such. But yeah, Tau have to have the dice on their side against guard. As do most armies.

d = r*2. Use your head man.

>> No.18691323

>Tau being far enough away from the board edge where the other 18" matter

Use your head man.

>> No.18691394


>Kan wall/dread mob

Does not compute. Kans and Dreads are the coolest fucking units orks have outside of Stormboyz. I love seeing those shiny metal bastards on the field.

>> No.18691532

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you're just making an error here.
It is 18" in EVERY DIRECTION. This means that there is a 36" sphere of influence with this ability.
You put her in the middle of a castle, and you spread the suits out on either side. Only one suit in each unit needs to be in range for the bubble to work.
The board is only 48" wide. If the units are in line with her, she can potentially effect units that are 36" away from each other. This is a *huge* amount of area covered by her LD bubble, and allows her to work even in a dual castle list.

You can disagree with her point costs, or that she even need exist, but you make a grievous mistake by downplaying the reach she has.

>> No.18691622

Well, I see what you're getting at then. The meta for Tau in my area is a single castle in a corner or somesuch, so I was manly thinking in one orientation while you were thinking in another. The corner castle sucks for templates, but is way more effective vs assaulting armies then a thinner deployment along the board, and we have a ton of marines of every flavor playing melee-heavy armies. They blow through my kroot like the tissue paper they are...

>> No.18691648

6 killa kans, 2 deff dreads, big mek with kustom force field, all your remainign points poured int oboyz behind the tin kan wall and invun bubble, enjoy

>> No.18691669

Have you tried running a double castle list with a false middle? They work wonders at higher points by at least splitting up targets and making your opponent make decisions.
I can link you to some material if you'd like.

What point level do you normally play? That might be the core of our differences.

>> No.18691714

Almost always play 2K. I'd venture from your strategies that you probably run 3K on average, since I can't see Shadowsun being effective at a lower range. Out of curiosity, do you run Farsight at all?

>> No.18691731

Didn't a FAQ recently nerf the kan wall/KFF somewhat?

>> No.18691765

KFF now has to hit 2 out of the three kans for them to get a save

>> No.18691801

I normally run in anything from 1850-2.5k. Shadowsun rarely makes appearances in the later levels, if I feel the outing will be full of LD causing things.
Farsight, to me, never gets to shine. While the bomb is all well and good, the model itself in nowhere near worth the points and the restrictions are laughable. Tau NEED Piranhas and Kroot.

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