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[ERROR] No.18581962 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Today, I will be telling my group's incorrigible power gamer that the build he went absolutely crazy over last sessions breaks a very clear rule.

Do you have any tips for defending yourself from an angry fellow player?

>> No.18582018

Other gamers. Make it there fault. He hates them and you can be the neutral observer. The best defense is alway "lets you and him fight".

>> No.18582022

If he's the sort of person you need to defend yourself from when he doesn't get his fucking way, why the fuck are you playing with the shitheel?

>> No.18582026

Keep your hands up. He probably doesn't know how to throw a decent punch, but he might hit pretty hard if he swings wildly.

Don't overestimate how much your fist can stand up to hard bones, aim for the face, not the head.

>> No.18582029

The fact that he would respond to "Oh, hey man, that build you came up with doesn't work. The writers saw you coming" with anything other than "Huh, shit. Those wily bastards, I was sure I was a genius. Oh well" shows that he cares way to fucking much about something that's ultimately about collective fun. If he actually gets mad about that sort of thing, he's unstable. Get away from him.

>> No.18582031


Because I've finally found a group, and he's an established member of it. As I understand it, the other players grew up together.

Since I didn't, I'm remarkably less immune to his bullshit.

>> No.18582134


This is how 'that guy' stories happen.

Are you guys all really so beta that you can't tell someone to clean his act up?

>> No.18582138

yes, are you new here

>> No.18582155


I don't expect him to get mad or anything. Heck, he might even simply accept it.

I've played with him for a number of weeks now, though, and I sort of expect him to start sulking. "DM, this means I can't take my character in the direction I wanted. We'll have to get rid of him for some hamfisted reason and shoehorn a new character in."

He's done this before. Last session, actually. The character we've had to shoehorn in is the one that's based on a wrong interpretation of the rules.

>> No.18582199

If the abuse isn't gamebreaking, you might consider telling him that his build breaks it but you will allow it until the campaign finishes/his character dies and never do it anymore

>> No.18582209


I'm afraid I'm not the DM. The DM was ready to allow it last time, but I've diplomatically brought up the rule break with him since our last session. Turns out he had not yet read up on the specific set of rules the player is planning to use.

>> No.18582225


Eh, my advice?
If the DM is not gonna say anything.
And the party isn't going to say anything.
Then it's probably best you not say anything.
Unless you want to be That Guy.
You know, that one douche who won't let people have their fun, because the Codex Astartes does not support their action.

>> No.18582246

Just call him on his shit. If he gets pissy, hand him the book and point to where it simply explains, his shit needed to be called upon.

>> No.18582247

Out of curiosity, what's his character and what rule is he breaking?

>> No.18582250

If you're not the DM, why do you care about whether his character is fully legal or not? Give unto caesar.

>> No.18582252


I've considered this, but it would give him like STR 24 at level 7 in D&D 3.5. Sans items.

If the rest of the group also min-maxed out the ass using rules from different sourcebooks, I would have less of a problem with it. But the rest of the group is pretty much just sticking to the core books for simplicity's sake. His build would unbalance things.

>> No.18582259

>His build would unbalance things.

What is the build, I'll tell you if it's really fucked up!

>> No.18582263

Overall, not a big deal. Just tell him, point out rule and forget.

> Out of curiosity, what's his character and what rule is he breaking?

>> No.18582264

You brought it up to the DM first, that's good.

To deal with another player you talk to the DM first. It's the DM's games, DM's rules.

You can't tell him he's violating the rules; that's the DM's job. It is in fact the DM's primary job; dictating what does and does not go. Even if it is very obviously RAW that he can't do it, the DM might allow it. The DM might even be coming up with a way for his character to happen and you could shit all over it.

Again,it's not your call. If you have an issue with his character on the grounds that he is breaking the DM's establishment of the limitations he places on the players (and make no mistake; the limitations are his to place, and his by design, not the book's), then you need to have the DM handle it, in his own way.

>> No.18582266


So let him have it.
Despite what people tell you, balance is a non-issue.
If it's possible to have fun, despite the min-maxing then forgive it.
I mean, hell, it sounds like he's got a martial build. He's not in danger of upstaging anyone and if your DM is any good, he'll make sure there's plenty of spotlight to go around.

>> No.18582267

>24 Str at level 7

Haha, really?
So a Raging Half-Orc is too much?

>> No.18582286

You say that like you wouldn't sit a brick house if confronted by a raging half-orc.

>> No.18582287


He's looking to combine fighter, barbarian, half-orc paragon, orc paragon and human paragon.

The problem is, you're not allowed to take levels in both human and orc paragon as a half-orc. You can take levels in one of the two after having take some in half-orc paragon.

Added up, the main benefits of three levels in each of the three paragon classes would be:

+4 to STR
+2 to another ability (would probably also be STR)
10 class skills of your choosing for the human paragon levels, including 1 skill that becomes a class skill for all your classes, current or future.
A bonus feat.
Improved darkvision.

Compared to the rest of the party, this seems like a massive set of perks.

If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.

>> No.18582290


I hadn't even counted rage. Go ahead and add 4 to that. I also hadn't counted the ability bonus from another class, but that would take a few more levels anyway.

>> No.18582297

>He's looking to combine fighter, barbarian, half-orc paragon, orc paragon and human paragon.
>half-orc paragon, orc paragon and human paragon.

>> No.18582304


That is really kinda sad. Not that powerful.

>> No.18582309


Is it? I wasn't sure. It looked a bit overpowered to me, as far as martial characters go.

>> No.18582313

copypasta from UA:

>Divided Ancestry (Ex): Unlike other racial paragons, halforcs
>can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After
>gaining at least one level as a half-orc paragon, a character
>can take either orc paragon levels or human paragon levels
>(but not both).

>either orc paragon levels or human paragon levels
>(but not both)

Seems pretty obvious to me you're right, you can either go Half-Orc Paragon + Orc Paragon -or- Half-Orc Paragon + Human Paragon, but not all three for the same character

>> No.18582321


Yeah. This is what I was planning to carefully bring up during our next session, tomorrow.

>> No.18582323




You are right. He can't do it, just its suboptimal.

>> No.18582325

Compare to another core classes like [wizard | cleric | druid], fighter\barbarian\paragon is mediocre at best.
And in same weight category - it's better than, say, straight fighter 7 or barbarian 7, but worse than barbarian 1 \ fighter 4 \ some PrC 2

Clearly, three paragons break rules, so you should telling him about that. But character definitely not game breaker.

>> No.18582381


He could do Barbarian 1, Fighter 5 say dungeon Crasher and Frenzied Berserker 1.

Hell even a rogue is better at these levels.

>> No.18582396


It's against the rules, sure, but not that broken AT ALL.

Doesn't make much sense to me, but if the DM's willing to allow it, it's no big deal. In fact for an "optimizer" the build is pretty crappy. I can think of MULTIPLE ways to get 24 str at level 7. Simplest is probably 18str +2 (at level 6) then bull's strength (2nd level spell). Fuck that's not even optimizing that's using a spell and going for lots of str.

Thinking about it, his build actually sucks.

Also, how the fuck is he doing this? You mentioned fighter, barb, and 3 paragon classes, with three levels each. That's 9, plus fighter and barb is 11 at least. I thought you said he was level 7?

>> No.18582413

What's the problem though? He'd be better off as Wizard 7, Cleric 7, Druid 7, Sorceror 7, etc etc etc

>> No.18582432

To continue that:

Bard 7, Paladin 7, Ranger 7. Half-casters get spells too!

Fuck, even straight up Fighter 7 could be better if you get the right feats. Well maybe not at 7, I forget when charge, jump attack, and AoO builds of fighter start getting crazy.

>> No.18582451

fighter gets jack shit at 7

>> No.18582471

If he's really a powergamer, and it's not just you calling him that because you don't understand the rules, then if you prevent him from doing this he'll probably make something that's actually broken but completely obeys the rules.

At least that's what I'd do, but I'm passive aggressive as all hell.

>> No.18582511


Stealthy Fighter 3/Rogue 1/Scout 1/Spellthief 1/Ninja 1
>could drop 2 stealthy fighter for more sneak attack damage via prc, I find the hd + bab a little helpful but whatever floats your boat.
1st feat: Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique)
2nd feat: Martial Study (Burning Blade)
3rd feat: Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
Use a greatsword

So we'd be at

2d6 from Greatsword
+2d6 Fighter
+1d6 Rogue
+1d6 Scout
+1d6 Ninja
+1d6 Spellthief
+1d6 Cold (Shadowblade)
+2d6 (Assassin stance)
+1d6 Fire (Burning Blade)

Thats 12d6 + 1.5xSTR Bonus at 7th level. So assuming he has a 16 base + 2 for level + 4 for race. You are looking at +9 damage. So on average he'd hit for 51. But the range is 21 to 81 without crit. Either way he'll be outclassed by a magic user.

>> No.18582514

Also if he does decide to ditch the character and bring in another one kill the previous one yourself. I always did that when my playgroup would switch characters mid-campaign. I never play Paladin just for this purpose.

>> No.18582517


I said if you got the right feats, and I should have added other stuff like race and items to that list.

They can be powerful if you build them carefully and correctly. If you're going just from core then hell naw, but it's clear this guy isn't either with paragon classes. They're both more difficult to optimize than many other classes (especially ones with magic) and they don't end up being as good as the magic ones, but if you're allowed to pick and choose from splatbooks then yes you can make a good as hell fighter.

>> No.18582543

If we talking about core + ua only (aka "srd without psionic")

barbarian (Wolf totem) 2 \ Fighter 4 \ Any 1

Combat Reflex + Improved Trip (free, without decent Int)

If feats from other sources allowed - Power Attack + Bull Rush + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack on top of that.


barbarian (Wolf totem) 2 \ Ranger 3 \ Fighter 1 \ Horizon Walker 1

than Horizon Walker up to 6 (fatigue immunity on 1st, dimension door on 6th)

And if other sources allowed - possibilities a countless (especially if ToB allowed)

>> No.18582555


The reason I'm calling him a powergamer is because he goes on and on about how item/feat/feature X from book Y will help him do SO MUCH damage and how amazingly strong his character is. His grasp of the rules may not be robust enough to end up in overpowered territory, but bless 'im, he's trying.

Am I using the term 'powergamer' wrong?

>> No.18582564

Not really. He's just a stupid one who can't build anything worth crap.

It's probably annoying, but he shouldn't unbalance the game too much.

Now, if he got his hands on a REAL optimized build...

>> No.18582617


I shudder to think of what will happen. His "STAND BACK, I'LL HANDLE THIS" attitude is annoying as it is.

>"Well damn, companions. We seem to be in trouble. We need a plan."
>Seriously, guy? You're a barbarian with 8 int. Could we let the 16-int guys come up with the plan for once?
>-Stfu. This is clearly the most logical plan.
>It is, but YOU'RE THE PARTY BARBARIAN. You'll get your chance to shine in combat, not here.
>-How about I combat your character into a pulp? Now listen to Herp the barbarian tell you the plan.

>> No.18582664


A lot of my campaigns have planning stuff that goes on OOC, then if anyone comes up with a good plan it's sort of assumed that the high INT/WIS character(s) came up with it, but yeah it can get annoying. It sounds like it might be a role-playing problem more than anything, he seems to be refusing to role-play a not so bright character as not so bright. Maybe try and talk with him about that?

Sounds like an annoyance, but not going to set off party balance at all.

>> No.18582781

Another low-level build would be to go:

Fighter 6/Barbarian (Lion Totem from Complete Champion/Whirling Frenzy) 1

We'll have him just wield a greatsword. By now hopefully he can have it enchanted as Valorous.

For feats you'd take:
>essentially 1 slot open iirc
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Battle Jump
Headlong Rush
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper

Whirling Frenzy: +4 STR
Orc: +4 STR
Power Attack: -7 attack bonus for +14 dmg
Shocktrooper: -7 goes to AC not attack bonus
Leap Attack: adds +100% power attack
Battle Jump: Doubles damage
Headlong Rush: Doubles Damage


>> No.18582804

No, that sounds like a powergamer. Here's the thing: that's the way powergamers have fun at the table. I enjoy powergaming too (although I tend to build gishes. I've always hated the idea that melee characters should just sit in a corner unless someone is trying to kill someone else).

Does him having fun with his build really interfere with you having fun?


OK, that sounds like it could interfere with you having fun, although if you take a moment to translate that into OOC talk...

>I have an idea, friends.
>Nope. Your piece of paper has a low number where my piece of paper has a high number, therefore you, in real life, can't come up with ideas.

...or in character talk...

>Forsooth! I have an idea, comrades-in-arms!
>Forsooth! Shut up, you're too stupid to contribute to this.
>Forsooth! I am angry for completely reasonable reasons!

... then you sound like the dick.

>> No.18582911


What I'm getting is.

>Hey guys, I have an idea, <complicated tactics>
>Oh yeah sure, that's a good plan

Then IC:
>THOG HAVE PLAN. THOG AND THOG FRIENDS <complicated tactics>.

That's simply ignoring one of your character's attributes when it's a weakness, but playing it normal when it's not. Or on the other hand, they simply completely ignore the fact that they used int and wis as dump stats when they're talking and playing in character, because those are weaknesses and they don't like having those. I've met both those types of people and both need RP lessons. A low int score means more than just low knowledge checks. Roleplay your damn weakness.

>> No.18582922

>playing a character with weaknesses

>> No.18583764


Last year I DM'd for a group using 3.5e. It was my first time outside of DH, so thank the gohds nobody at all was That Guy, but your greentext reminds me of one conversation that I had with a certain individual mid-way through the campaign.

>H/orc fighter's player points out a possible scheme of mine to the group, at the beginning of a session.
>I give no indication, but they know me well enough to know he's probably right.
>Everyone thinks about it, commends the player and begins to talk to me about revising their prior intentions.
>I lean toward the H/orc's player and wave the others to silence.
>"You have SIX intelligence... Roll for an EPIPHANY. If you roll lower than your int on 4 d6, then you actually said what you just said."
>He rolls 10, which I do not allow. But I did permit the bard and wizard a chance to roll up the thought as well, and both succeed easily.

The players' comments were clearly made out of character, but everyone enjoyed the way it was handled and I got a chance to save my scheme. Which I threw away because I'm a teddy bear.

Perhaps you could challenge his behaviour in a funny way that will improve your friendship and your group integration, rather than as a rules stickler? Just my five.

>> No.18583781

Six? Eight, rather. Sorry, scatterbrain.

>> No.18583943



I kind of do this to gently encourage role-playing, if my players want to make a Bluff or Diplomacy check AND have a speech or a lie prepared I'll let them do it then take into consideration their stats.

Because occasionally your ugly as sin, smart as a brick Orc fighter comes to the session with the most blood-stirring pre-battle sermon ever written. I'm sure as fuck not going to let that fail to a bad roll.

>> No.18583973

Level 7 you say?
24 strength is nothing.
Be an illumian, take 2 levels of fighter, 1 level of monk and then 3 levels of wizard, for seventh level take a level of cancer mage.
Become infected with festering anger. Ignore the downsides due to cancer mage and gain +2 strength for every day that you are infected.

Wait for an arbitrary period of time.

As you are an illumian, when you multiclass you gain another sigil, ensure that you have the two that makes your bonus spells dependent on your strength, which is now as high as you want it to be.
Enjoy having ludicrous numbers of spells powered by your muscles and the ability to punch out nearly anything. Just don't get hit as your hit points are still weedy.

>> No.18584007

Hell, throw in vile rigidity as well.
Gain +1AC for each day infected.

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