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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.18553074 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

MTG is pay to win. Discuss.

Example? 4x tarmogoyf

>> No.18553085

Tarmogoyf sucks.

>> No.18553089

If you don't like capitalism, you are a dirty pinko commies

Discuss

>> No.18553098

>A specialist hobby offers you more options the more you invest in it

And we are ALL surprised.

Pro tip: if you don't want it to be "pay-to-win" as you say, enjoy your local metagame and ignore tournaments. It really is that easy.

>> No.18553107

Of course it is, OP. What the fuck did you expect?

>> No.18553120

Draft or play one of the several other decks available that are just as good instead of bitching.

>> No.18553135

>>18553120

K go buy some swords in standard lolololol

>> No.18553161

>>18553120
If I'm not mistaken 20-30$ is less than 80-100$.

>> No.18553177

MTG is legal gambling for children. Discuss.

>> No.18553178

Hey guise its us WotC we are going to put new dual lands into standard all the time so you have to keep buying them lololloloolololoolol

>> No.18553189

>>18553098
This. My group just builds all of our decks out of my own personal collection, with no regard to popular or "crunched" metas we see online and elsewhere. We have a great time, and for the most part games are long fought, since everyone's deck is terrible. And we don't have to buy play sets and shit.

>> No.18553211

be friends with someone with a cube draft and play magic for free. (you really should pitch in some beer from time to time though, fucking moochers.)

>> No.18553217

>>18553178
OH NO! I HAVE TO PAY 5 DOLLARS FOR A SULFUR FALLS!

ITT: Butthurt Poorfags

>> No.18553244

Honestly, whats the average cost of a tournament viable deck in standard now a days?

>> No.18553249

>>18553217
>LOLZ I PAY $5 FOR A CHILDREN'S GAME PIECE SO I CAN WIN THE GAME
It's easy to come up with money for pathetic nerd stuff if you have no social life.

>> No.18553256

>>18553244
Over $9000.

>> No.18553267

>>18553256

>> No.18553277

>>18553217
Good dual lands go for about 20 dollars where I'm from.

>> No.18553283

>>18553249
Oh no a nerd insulted another nerd that he has no life on a nerd hompage. How will he retaliate?

>> No.18553284

>>18553244
Just about what its been for the last 6 years.
$80 - $200

Low end is stuff like Delver and whatever RDW is currently looking like. The higher end stuff tends to be more creative and fun to play against.

>> No.18553289

>>18553277

Yup. Have fun buying new dual lands when every other block rotates out

>> No.18553290

At a "competitive" (even FNM) level, yeah. It sucks playing against people with $400 decks. But I usually play casually with friends and most of us don't have competitive level decks, and the people who do won't use one against someone who doesn't because the game stops being fun.

>>18553217
>OH NO, I HAVE TO PAY $80 FOR A PLAYSET OF DARKSLICK SHORES THAT WILL BE UNPLAYABLE IN A FEW MONTHS, THEN I'LL HAVE TO BUY DIFFERENT OVERPRICED DUAL LANDS
Fixed.

>> No.18553302

>>18553290
>paying 20 dollars for darkslick shores
www.ebay.com

>> No.18553326

>>18553290

Boom. This guy knows whats up. I havn't played since Tempest. So much for WotC "desire" to reduce barrier to entry for newer players. Laughable.

>> No.18553339

>Year of our lord two thousand and twelve
>Playing formats like standard or modern when glorious formats like cube drafting and edh exist

I truly hope none of you planeswalkers do this

>> No.18553350

>>18553339
Some of us play all four of those.

Also, how's being 90 with a dead husband and brother treating you?

>> No.18553355

That's why I like modern the lands are not very expensive and they don't rotate out.If only WOTC can find away around the reserved list, I love Legacy but I can only afford to play it on Cockatrice:P

>> No.18553360

>>18553284
So, what does it cost to build a competitive deck if you only buy intro decks and booster packs, and don't trade?

>> No.18553377

>>18553360
mot much if you just want to play FNM and local stuff. But drafting is the best way to get new stuff.

>> No.18553379

>>18553360
To build something playable for Standard or Modern you need 2 of any one intro deck (~$40-60), and a good half a dozen packs or more (~$20)

>> No.18553382

>>18553350

>> No.18553399

>>18553360
For FNM, just grab one of the intro decks and 3-4 packs and have fun. You'll not embarrass yourself if you have any card eval skills.

For PTQ and whatnot, If you're deadset on using a precon deck as your base, get 2 and 10 packs, and pray you get good pulls.

>> No.18553412

>>18553290

>OH NO, I HAVE TO PAY $80 FOR A PLAYSET OF DARKSLICK SHORES THAT WILL STILL RETAIN VALUE DUE TO MODERN EVEN WHEN THEY ROTATE OUT OF STANDARD IN A FEW MONTHS, THEN I'LL HAVE TO SELL THEM TO GET THE NEW, LESS EXPENSIVE DUAL LANDS THAT WILL COME OUT NEXT SET, OR JUST PLAY IN MODERN WHERE I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A ROTATION.
Fixed.

Because only idiots think Darkslick will be completely unplayable in a few months.

>> No.18553413

>only buy into decks and booster packs
>dont trade
>worst possible method of getting cards.
>how much does it cost

god you people are fucking retarded. Its actually embarrassing.

>> No.18553415

>>18553382
Turning into a geriatric lolicon. Question, does going after your husband's reincarnation count as continuing the relationship, some bizarre form of distant incest, or just plain creepy?

>> No.18553419

>>18553355
>I love Legacy but I can only afford to play it on Cockatrice
Does anyone play totally unrestricted?

I mean, decks that are like, 20 Black Lotus?

You could play so that if the player who goes first wins the game on his first turn, you play again with the other player going first, and without the cards you played on your first turn.

>> No.18553420

>>18553399
I'd get event decks instead of intro packs. They're better. Hold the Line (white humans) can get pretty great with a few modifications.

>> No.18553426

>>18553360
Do you ever plan on buying singular cards from cardstores? Because that would be your only option for building a good deck if you have no friends to trade with

>> No.18553431

>>18553413
Dickberry, he asked for advice on how to get into it THAT WAY. It is one of the worst ways, but its giving him the advice he asked for.

>> No.18553439

>>18553420

The BG DKA one gives you pretty much everything you need for pod when you buy 2.

Just like the White MBS ones were going to give everything except the swords and jace.

>> No.18553442

>>18553178
IT'S NOT EVEN A MULTICOLOR SET DAMN IT WHY DO YOU DO THIS FFFFFFFFFFF

>> No.18553453

>>18553431
And my advice is to NOT do it that way.

derp.

>> No.18553460

>>18553442

>Lands that search lands, which means 2 landfall triggers
>In a land based set where landfall was introduced

Seems like a good idea, actually.

>> No.18553470

>>18553453
>derp.
Yep, you just went full derp. He obviously knows its a bad way, he would not have framed his question the way he did. There is no need to be a faggot about it. Why are you such a faggot?

>> No.18553498

>>18553460
I was more referring to the fact that there is a cycle of dual lands in every block for some reason. I probably should have looked more closely at the picture.

>> No.18553521

>>18553360
infinite

>> No.18553538

>>18553498

they put dual lands in every set so they can facilitate multicolored play. If there were no dual lands in block, then you lose a lot of consistency in decks running more than 1 color.

>> No.18553554

>>18553538

What the actual fuck. They could keep in pain lands and a few of the others instead of making new fucking pain lands every other fucking block.

you guys are thankyoumaster.jpg

>> No.18553564

>>18553538
So in order to not have a single block have mono color they make cards that will become tournament baring staples every block?

They should just fucking let there be a mono color standard for once, that's be interesting.

>> No.18553594

>produce a card game
>want people to constantly buy new product
>print cards that are required for play with small differences

It's a business you morons. If you really think they could reprint the same 3 sets of lands over and over again and expect people to buy the shit out of sets you're dumb and wrong.

>> No.18553614

>>18553594

People buy new sets for other reasons besides dual lands. All dual lands means to me is another $100+ every time a block rotates out in standard.

>> No.18553626

>>18553564

>Tournament barring staples
>5 dollar lands

The only reason dual lands have been expensive recently isn't because they're standard staple, but because they are Modern Staples and Legacy staples.

The Mxx lands don't cost more than 3 or so a piece, and the new duals only cost about 5 (if they have blue in them).

And no, single color blocks are horribly boring, as are tribal formats, as in those cases the set builds the decks for you.

>>18553554
>They should totally not print new cards because I don't want to drop 10-20 dollars once a year.

Yeah, it's totally insane! they should make the next set nothing but reprints so I don't have to buy anything new!

>> No.18553632

>>18553178
You know wizards makes no money in the secondary market right?

>> No.18553659

>>18553614

You know what's funny? Your set of duals for your deck will almost never exceed 20 dollars unless the lands will become Modern or legacy staples.

Darkslick Shores and Seachrome coast used to cost 3 dollars a piece, until people realized they were amazing in modern, and started playing them causing them to rise in price.

>> No.18553689

If I was in charge of WotC, I'd do a whole year of sets that were nothing but basic lands.

But I'd introduce extra-basic lands, like "Drained Swamp" and "Lakebed" that don't give mana. They could be the uncommons. And the rare would be joke lands like "Loserville -- if Loserville is in your deck, hand, battlefield, or graveyard you can't win the game".

I wouldn't mismanage the brand like these clowns.

>> No.18553690

>>18553632

They make it indirectly, because people and stores have to buy the packs to get the singles.

But even then, that's bitching about the pull rates, and how much demand there is for the cards, only part of which can be blamed on wotc.
But the simple conclusion is yes, this game is pay to play in the high scale competitive level, not because wotc makes it that way, but because the amount of competition allows for the price increases.

>> No.18553704

>>18553632
>implying that people don't buy boosters because they can sell the cards from them on the secondary market

>> No.18553721

DRAFT, OR PLAY CASUAL. Fuck. It's not that hard.

>> No.18553731

>>18553690
>not because wotc makes it that way

>makes some cards rare
>makes rare cards important
>not intending to make people spend more money
>oh no, certainly not

>> No.18553743

>>18553178

Printing lots of dual lands ultimately drives down the price and makes them more assessable.

>> No.18553745

>>18553538
I thought that the trade-off was that multicolor decks are less consistent with mana but have more options while monocolored decks are more consistent with mana but have fewer. I guess that's just me though.

>> No.18553761

>>18553731

>Magic now has no competitive scene
>Prices plummet because demand has dropped drastically

Yep, WotC is clearly main reason why the cards are so expensive, and not the fact that Magic has a FUCKING HUGE FOLLOWING and a gigantic competitive meta, no siree, it could never be because of that.

>> No.18553782

>>18553745

except without duals, the decks have a significant drop in consistency in comparison to the value they gain from variety.

>> No.18553856

>>18553761
Look, the way WotC set things up, if people are selling good rares, they HAVE to be expensive. With the way the cards are made available, there is no way to provide them for low prices: you have to buy a lot of boosters to get good rares.

The competitive scene is the reason there's a market, not the reason prices are high.

>> No.18553912

>>18553856

>Price is determined solely by supply, demand has nothing to do with it.

No, how many times do we have to say this? Price is determined by BOTH supply AND demand. WotC supplies the cards, and if they are good enough, then the Demand is increased and the value rises. This is why not every rare and mythic is expensive.

It's like you've never taken an economics course.

>> No.18553913

>>18553761
Wizards contributes to it. They choose to release duals as rares, driving up prices by limiting the supply. They get marginal benefit from it at best.

>> No.18553943

>>18553913

that is true, but whenever we have these arguments, everyone complains ONLY about WotC making the cards rare, while completely ignoring the fact that the playerbase contributes a much larger effect on the increase and decrease of card value.

>> No.18554108

>>18553912
Look, dumbass, there isn't a fixed supply. There is a fixed incremental cost for increasing the supply, which regulates the balance of supply and demand, indirectly determining the secondary market price.

For current sets, supply always keeps the same relation to demand, because WotC prints as many boosters as people will buy and sells them at a consistent price.

You could never have a situation where the contents of the average booster of a current set were valued at $20 on the secondary market, because people would respond by buying more boosters and selling the cards, lowering the prices, and if the contents of the average booster of a current set are valued at $1 on the current market, people will stop buying the boosters and start depleting the secondary market supply until the price has to come up (or, if people just don't want the cards, until the cards are gone from the secondary market and the boosters just gather dust on the shelves).

Demand determines whether there's a market, and the prices of particular cards relative to other cards, but it doesn't determine the general cost of cards, which is determined by the cost of boosters and the probability of finding important cards in them.

>> No.18554143

>>18553943
See, I don't buy that. Several years ago, there was a common that was arguably one of the best cards of it's set. Basking Rootwalla, basically a madness deck's dream card. They were going for 2 dollars a piece, and it was hard to find them.

So what we're looking at here is the difference between 20 dollars for an awesome rare, and 2 dollars for an awesome common. Rarity makes a huge difference. In the case of dual lands, I'd argue that it would improve the game: It wouldn't hurt the competitive scene in the least, it would lower the barrier for entry for new players, and it would help to allieviate one of the worst feelings in the game: mana screw, for poorfags.

>> No.18554146

>>18554108

>Demand determines whether there's a market, and the prices of particular cards relative to other cards, but it doesn't determine the general cost of cards, which is determined by the cost of boosters and the probability of finding important cards in them.
>which is determined by the cost of boosters and the probability of finding important cards in them.
>the probability of finding important cards in them.
>important cards

And what makes a card 'important'? DEMAND. Your entire argument is based upon people wanting the cards, so yes, the value of the packs is contingent on the DEMAND FOR THE PACKS. That's why the packs sell for what they do.

>> No.18554179

>>18554143

Alright, that's a fair point, but then I have to ask: why bother keeping the higher rarities, when eliminating rare and mythic would bring about an overall price drop for entry.

(This is of course ignoring draft, where having powerful cards at the uncommon and common level mean that draft could no longer work anymore.)

>> No.18554301

>>18554146
You seem unable to grasp the basic point here: WotC sets the price of boosters at $4, and decides what cards will be available in them. They don't adjust the price up or down in response to demand.

Let's say there's a Landwin set that's all basic lands and one ultra-rare called Winner that says "If you own this card, you can't lose the game and your opponent can't win the game, unless your opponent also owns a card named 'Winner'.". Winner is in 1 in 100 packs.

While Landwin is still in print, if Winner is available on the market, it's going to cost roughly $400, no matter how strong or weak the demand is for it. If the demand is weak, then it might not be available on the market, but if it is available, no matter what the demand is, the price is not going to be more than $500 or less than $300, because on average new ones are only brought into the market by spending $400 (somewhat less for those buying wholesale).

It's more complicated when a set includes a variety of cards of varying importance, but the same principle applies to the real relation between the primary and secondary market.

>> No.18554316

>>18554179
I'm fine with rarities for most cards. Lands are a special case: They're not "Oh, I played this and do x effect that's cool/effective/gives me options". Lands are "Oh, I need this for my deck to function at it's most basic level".

Ideally, they'd start releasing dual lands in the same way they hand out token cards: One per booster pack. This would have a side effect of it not hurting draft much at all, even helping it for those poor fools who don't rare draft.

>> No.18554385

>>18554179
WotC doesn't want to lower the cost of entry, of course.

If most decks are 60 cards, boosters are 15 cards, and all 15 cards are equally good, valuable cards, then the average player is only going to need to spend $16 and do a little trading to build a competitive deck.

If most decks are 60 cards and the average booster only contains one card worth using in a competitive deck, then for every person who builds a competitive deck, WotC gets to sell 60 boosters.

The question for them is simple: what can they get away with? How expensive can they make a competitive deck without driving away all of their customers?

The last thing they want is to make deck-building cheap.

>> No.18554420

>>18554301

>You seem unable to grasp the basic point here: WotC sets the price of boosters at $4, and decides what cards will be available in them. They don't adjust the price up or down in response to demand.

Yes, because clearly if they can't sell their packs aren't selling for 4 dollars, then they won't reduce the price to sell them. You sir are functionally retarded. the demand for cards leads to demand for packs. without a demand for single cards, THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR PACKS. No demand for packs, means they have to reduce the price of packs.

Your entire case is based around the assumption that the demand for packs will remain no matter what the demand for singles is.

And your example is completely retarded. If the demand for the card was low enough, then people wouldn't open the packs. if they don't open the packs, then the packs would not sell, wotc loses money, and has to reduce the price of packs to attempt to sell the cards.

Again, demand changes the prices, because if the packs are too expensive then they don't sell. THIS IS BUSINESS 101.

>> No.18554425

>>18554301
>one ultra-rare called Jace, the Mind Sculptor
fixed that for you

>> No.18554452

>>18554425

And you know what's funny, jace didn't exceed 140 dollars, even though he was pretty much the only true money card in set, and that was partially because the set was short printed, and why the packs sell for 7 a piece.

>> No.18554498

>>18554420
>No demand for packs, means they have to reduce the price of packs.
Well no, Mr. Economics 101, it doesn't.

It means they have to stop printing the set and try not to fail so hard with the next one. If they can't make a set that sells boosters for $4, they will discontinue MTG.

Messing with prices is dangerous. If they raise them, it will hurt brand loyalty. If they lower them, it will hurt willingness to pay the old price. It's a consumer psychology thing.

>> No.18554556

>>18554498

>If they can't make a set that sells boosters for $4, they will discontinue MTG.

It's funny that you think that the packs have to sell for 4 dollars, especially since you can get the packs for as low as 2.50-3 dollars.

4 dollars is not the minimum they force you to pay. the minimum they force you to pay is the amount they need to get some semblance of profit (which is actually less than 4, seeing as direct distributors only have to pay about 2 dollars a pack)

And yes, they will sell the packs at an extremely reduced price to get rid of the stock, because getting SOME revenue back is better than getting NO revenue back.

Honestly, every time you open your mouth, you say yet another thing that shows your lack of knowledge about the subject.

>> No.18554582

Everyone quit fighting, and stop giving money grabbing WotC money

the end.

>> No.18554585

>>18554498
To elaborate: the ambition with a product like this is to sell many packs.

They know that, as the manufacturer, they can't sell the cards at high prices, because consumer psychology dictates that cards, which are inexpensive to print, must be sold at low prices.

However, consumer psychology is more flexible when it comes to whether the cards in the packs are worth having. It's fun to gamble, so people like buying a booster not knowing whether it's full of junk or mostly good cards or one really great one.

The consumer accepts high prices on the secondary market because of the way the sellers get the cards, but if the manufacturer tried to sell rares for $20 each, which they could print up for a few cents, people would quit the game in disgust.

MTG is a truly masterful exploit of consumer psychology.

>> No.18554604

i remember seeing an interview with mark rosewater a while back where he said that Magic Online comprised about 50% revenue that magic makes. imagine if in another 10 years it was 90%? at the moment buying packs on modo is usually more expensive than buying in real life, but i imagine that could flip eventually.

if instead of having to manufacture massive amounts of inked cardboard, storing it, shipping it, advertising it, what if wizards went (almost) all-in on just mtgo? i don't think it's a bad idea. real life packs might become even more expensive to sustain themselves, and wizards gets rich selling $2-3 packs of code.

>> No.18554621

>>18554604

MTGO and the MTG brand will hopefully die off before that. WotC is milking the cow dry.

>> No.18554623

>>18554556
>they sell for less than $4! look at the wholesale price!
>hurf blurf clearance sales!
This is some seriously fucking stupid nitpicking.

My point stands: the price of packs does not respond to demand. If the demand is high, they just sell more packs at the same price, rather than raising the price. If the demand is low, they just sell fewer packs at the same price, rather than lowering the price.

>> No.18554627

>>18553244
Somewhere around $250 for Standard, probably. I'm not up to date on Modern or Legacy, but I believe Legacy is $800-1000 or more.

>> No.18554648

>>18553360
About $600-800 since you absolutely have to pull everything because intro decks are awful. Just buy singles.

>> No.18554664

>>18554648

ROFL. And people play this game why?

>> No.18554670

this thread is even more bitching and whining than the other.

and where the fuck do you all buy singles. 800 bucks for a deck? lol.

>> No.18554683

>>18554623

Then why did worldwake packs cost 7 dollars as opposed to Conflux packs which were 3 dollars a piece (and no, we are not talking about clearance prices here, though clearance prices are just as valid as standard prices when examining, as both are about selling the packs to attempt to get revenue.)

it is the reverse effect where increased demand increased the cost of the packs, which you say SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING.

>> No.18554684

>>18554604
In the future, you will pay $15/month to play an MMORPG, and in this MMORPG, you will pay $4/booster to get cards to play a CCG, and every few months you'll need to buy several new $25 rulebooks to see how you're allowed to play the cards.

World of Dungeons & Dragoncraft: The Gathering

>all these years, before this moment, it never once occurred to me that "The Gathering" was a reference to gathering a collection of cards

>> No.18554685

>>18554621
kinda doubt that. magic is more popular than ever nowadays, and sites like scg and channelfireball are promoting it even more.

>> No.18554688

Oh, look. This thread again.

>> No.18554705

>>18554670
>>18554664
>your hobby is expensive and therefore bad!

>> No.18554707

>>18554685

I hope you are wrong. Fuck wizard and their bullshit making dual lands for one standard block and then rotating them out, I have had it with their bullshit. I quit. Also bottle gnomes

>> No.18554733

>>18553074
> I'm a buttthurt faggot who can't deal with a premium hobby
Fixed that for you, Play Cockatrice or Draft. Or just play another game.

>> No.18554738

>>18554733

Beat it nerd.

>> No.18554746

>>18554683
Worldwake was short-printed. When stores couldn't order more, they treated it as a popular out-of-print set and raised prices.

Conflux was clearance. When stores got stuck with stock nobody would buy, they stopped ordering more and lowered prices to get rid of what they had. Once it was gone, they didn't order more.

WotC didn't change their MSRP or price to distributors.

>> No.18554747

>>18554664
Because it's fun. Decks actually cost $200 baseline for the most competitive T1 decks in standard, up to $300 or so for the more expensive ones. Just because you refuse to acquire cards in a manner that's 2-3x more efficient than the way you want to do it because you, like many people that play this game, feel the need to place arbitrary limitations on yourself, doesn't make our hobby less valid.

>> No.18554767

>>18554746

so then why are we using sales prices instead of the MSRP of 2 dollars?

>> No.18554789

>>18554767
Look up "MSRP", you retard.

>> No.18554822

>>18554789

Sorry, why are we using the MSRP, instead of the 2 dollars a pack they make distributers pay?

Also, SUGGESTED. This means it is not a constant price either. And packs have not always had an MSRP of 4 dollars either.

>> No.18554846

why do people always just say "magic costs thousands of dollars to play!" and dismiss it?

>drafting/limited: $15 per draft, can make your money back if you win
>cube drafting: can personalize your own draft and have a shitload of fun with your friends
>momir basic: one time $10 investment, you get to play with every creature ever printed
>jhoira: same as above but with sorceries
>pauper: competitive, fun, most decks cost $10 to make
>commander: can be expensive based on the deck, but it's fun as hell and not as expensive as standard
>casual/kitchen table magic: self-explanatory

also you can always be critical of what cards you're going to buy. trying to make a standard and modern deck? maybe you should pick delver since it it contains many cards popular in both standard and modern like geist of saint traft, snapcaster, and sword of war and peace. it's not like you're paying $300 for a standard deck and another $800 for a modern deck, the most expensive cards overlap so you pay much less overall

tl;dr cry more bitch niggas

>> No.18554861

I just go to wal-mart and steal cards, so many cards.

>> No.18554886

Yacht racing is also pay-to-win.

Every hobby with a competitive field is pay-to-win.

>> No.18554920

>>18554822
My point is that WotC doesn't mess with the prices by policy. They're doing their best to keep the price of boosters the same regardless of demand.

They do try to make more money off of cards they expect will be more important by making them rarer, causing more boosters to be bought to supply the demand and increasing their revenue.

>> No.18554937

>>18554886
Tell me how go is pay-to-win.

>> No.18554940

yeah and it isn't like wizards doesn't support formats that don't cost as much money.

but let's leave that out.

>> No.18554972

>>18554937
Obsidian Black is fucking broken, but the League won't ban it because, surprise surprise, it's super expensive and they make megabux off of it.

>> No.18554983

>>18554937
paying for lessons

>> No.18555000

>>18554983
books, too

>> No.18555026

so building DAVE.edh...
name your most hated cards, 5 color, idc

>> No.18555048

>>18554983
>>18555000
Why don't you just ask that lonely Asian man that lives right next to you how to play?
It'll give him something to do during his long, boring days.

>> No.18555072

>>18555026
Land destruction and cards that put crap back on top of your deck are always frustrating. Or this guy that does both.

>> No.18555087

>>18555048
Every time I talk to him, he starts making up absurd excuses and trying to get me to do pointless repetitive tasks (like, "the swelling in my shoulder is pressing a nerve, and I can't lift my arms up, can you get my medicine off of a shelf for me?") and I just know he's trying to teach me karate.

I just tell him, "No, I am a pacifist." and walk away before he can respond.

>> No.18555109

>>18555087
Kung fu is a form of meditation that just gives you the option of beating people up.

>> No.18555118

>MTG is pay to win. Discuss.

Correct. But if you Play to have fun and have friends which do the same. You'll have fun. That's why so many still play it.

>> No.18555126

>>18555072

>> No.18555129

>>18555118
I find it hard to have fun amongst the play to win crowd, and I don't hang out with people enough to just play to play.

>> No.18555184

>>18555129
Well.. That sucks, I've been there myself. All i can say it try and move away from that.
Because I agree it's not fun when you are surrounded by jerks.

>> No.18555188

>>18553413

I never fucking get why people here don't trade or draft and bitch about singles.

>> No.18555191

why does wizards print shit.

>> No.18555236

>>18555191
Because empty boosters are pure profit.

>> No.18555304

>>18555188
Because drafting is expensive, and trading requires you to a) find people with the cards you want, and b) are willing to trade with you.

>> No.18555521

WHY NOBODY LOVES ME

>> No.18555543

why are you not playing this great game

>> No.18555560

>>18555521
>>18555543
And what is this game?

>> No.18555578

>>18555236
Only half joking. Boosters need to be mostly full of cards that either aren't useful in competitive decks (like your example), or ones that you'll quickly get far more than you need of (like basic lands), or they won't sell enough boosters.

There's no reason they couldn't fill the intro decks and boosters with excellent cards, so a group of five friends could each build a competitive deck with just an intro deck and three or four boosters each, and trading between them.

>> No.18555592

>>18555560
fucking Invasion
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3172

>> No.18555601

>>18555521
>>18555543
Why does every other CCG reek of inferiority?

>> No.18555620

>>18555601
Because MTG trademarked all the good shorthand.

>> No.18555866

>>18555521
Wait. Is that a wood elf war dancer from WHFB?

What game is this?

>> No.18557990

>>18555191
why is this card so ridiculously overpowered?

>> No.18558047

>>18553178
I'm kind of an MTG newb. I can tap multicolored land for one of its colors, right?

>> No.18558158

>>18557990
Funny you should say that. Everyone else has dismissed it as only playable in casual decks and EDH because it isn't as good as this.

>> No.18558227

>>18558047
1. Lands are colorless
2. A land can only be tapped for mana of a color if it says so in the text box or has a basic land type

ie. The lands you replied to can't be tapped for mana.

>> No.18558243

i spotted these combos in an earlier thread before it went down, but only managed to snag the thumbnails as it 404d,

can anyone help me identify these cards?

>> No.18558258

>>18558243
Upper row: Liquimetal Coating and Splinter.
Lower row: Something, Manabarbs and Circle of Protection:Red

>> No.18558267

>>18558258
much obliged, partner

>> No.18558282

>>18558243
The one in the lower left is Power Surge

>> No.18558305

>>18558282
thanks!

>> No.18558392

>>18558158

We still have to see what else Avacyn Restored brings along, but if they don't get much better than Avacyn, control decks are gonna be FUCKED when Scars rotates.

No Elesh Norn. No Wurm Coil. No Titans. What fatties are they supposed to drop?

>> No.18558405

>>18558392
Drogskol Reaver, Bloodgift Demon, Bloodline Keeper and Olivia Voldaren seem like the most likely candidates currently.

>> No.18558484

I live in a tiny european country. there's only one store organising weekly drafts or t2 .
The store doesn't sell singles.
It's always the same players showing up.
Trading is somewhat stagnant.

I think i should stop playing.

>> No.18558497

>>18558405

The only one of those I see being a good replacement is Drogskol Reaver. Bloodgift Demon and Olivia Voldaren lack the immediate raw-power. Bloodline Keeper is a bit too creature dependent for any deck that wants to run Day of Judgement.

>> No.18558508

>>18553178
>Hey guise its us WotC we are going to put new dual lands into standard all the time so you have to keep buying them lololloloolololoolol
>you have to keep buying them
>have to

Mother fucker, you have THE PRIVILEGE of playing with those god damn 'duals'. I don't know about you, but I think evening out my mana is worth paying a premium for.

>> No.18558533

>>18558158
Alright, let me ask a different question then: How would you combat it? It makes every permanent including itself indestructible, right?

>> No.18558553

>>18558533
I'm not up to verse with the current standard, but a few years ago the response would be "Just O-ring it"

>> No.18558562

>>18558533
Morbided Tragic Slip, Oblivion Ring and Fiend Hunter all take care of it and are played in standard decks. Against Delver they're likely to just Vapor Snag it once and kill you or counter it on the way down if they really need to. It costs too much mana for you to rely on hardcasting it since you'll be dead by that time. If you reanimate it there are better targets like Elesh Norn and Jin Gitaxias and Elesh Norn.
Did I say that Elesh Norn is head and shoulders and delicious bone plates above Avacyn?

>> No.18558573

>>18558562
Oh yeah and zombies and UB play Edict effects to kill it.

>> No.18558579

>>18558533
>>18558562
>>18558573
To clarify, the main point here being that you don't need to fucking care about how you deal with it because you should've killed them before Avacyn hits the board anyway, or you burn/lifeloss them out after she comes down or you're a control deck with tons of answers and laugh when you counter her.

>> No.18558620

>>18558533
>oh nose it dosnt die to doom blade this is the end of magic

>> No.18558713

>>18558579
You can counter static creature effects? Forgive me, I'm very new to MTG. Does the creature still stay on the field after you counter its effect?

>> No.18558732

>>18558713
He's referring to countering her when she is still a spell on the stack. You can counter activated/triggered abilities with cards like Stifle, but you can't "counter" a static ability. You can how ever strip her of all abilities, as she grants abilities(indestructible) to everything. (The only reason I say you can strip of her all abilities and this works is because of how the layers system works, if she was doing something similar to Magus of the Moon that wouldn't be the case, but I'll not go deeper into layers as it is a tad complex)

>> No.18558735

EVERYTHING IS PAY TO WIN, FAGGOT

>Every sport ever requires pro equipment, more expensive than magic cards
>A lot of video games give you advantages if you pay (DLC)

it's called hobbies, people spend money on them, fuck you

>> No.18558739

>>18558713

He means you counter her when she comes down.
If she's already on the field, nothing removes the effect unless it specifically says so, like Humility.
But, indestructable doesn't mean unanswerable

>> No.18558756

>>18558735
Generally speaking, you can play most sports with just the ball and some friends, and professional gear isn't going to give you that much of an advantage except in comfort.

Also, the video games that are P2W are also shitty free MMOs.

Not all hobbies require money, and not all hobbies are money sinks. Magic goes beyond almost every hobby except maybe tabletop wargaming in terms of how expensive it is to play and to win. Moreover, finding people to play Magic with that aren't competitive or in a competitive environment (FNM) is difficult.

The people who say that video games cost as much as Magic are retarded, because for the cost of a competitive Standard deck that will actually win you prizes, you can buy a gaming system, and maybe even a few games. The gaming system will last longer, though.
Likewise, those who say Magic can pay for itself also seem to assume that you have that money in the first place, and that you can then win.

If you can't get those good cards, you'll generally suck at Magic.

>> No.18558758

ALSO WHY ARE YOU NIGGAS NOT PLAYING PROXY CARDS, PRINTED ON PAPER

>> No.18558763

>> No.18558768

>>18558735
>Every sport ever requires pro equipment, more expensive than magic cards
Which are pretty much a one off. Or can be rented. Or are often given/partially funded if you do it to any degree beyond you and your mates in the park / gym.
And don't need upgrading every few months when a new expansion comes out that changes the sport you play. It's not remotely comparable.
>A lot of video games give you advantages if you pay (DLC)
But sir, didn't you say "everything" is pay to win?
You've given two examples, and in one of those you even admit it's not all the time.

I'm sorry you've wasted a lot of money on cards, but be realistic dude. OP is right.

If you enjoy MTG, fair enough, good for you, have a ball. But retain enough self awareness to see it for what it is.

>> No.18558776

print cards, play with friends, don't be a bitch

>> No.18558777

>>18558756

But in a lot of sports paying is fundamental, and they're expensive as fuck, specially golf, tennis, climbing..

Also you don't need a 200€ deck, you just pay like 30€ a month for new cards (you'd pay 70€ a month for games) and you can perfmorm really good at tournaments.

>> No.18558789

>>18558777
>30€ a month for new cards
Which are out of date in 3, 2, 1...
>70€ a month for games
Ah look, a figure plucked randomly out of the air to support your "argument".

>> No.18558794

>>18558789

>Playing Standard
>Not playing with bros most of the time

>> No.18558806

>>18558777
No, you couldn't perform good at tournaments with that kind of money. Also, I don't get a new game every month. I've spent maybe $20 in the last month on games, most of them for the Kindle Fire. And most of them free.

Paying in sports is also fundamental if you join a league. Playing soccer with your bros doesn't require you to pay for anything but a ball. Magic on the other hand... if you've GOT bros, sure, that's cool, Magic will be fun for you. If you don't have bros, then you're going to have to go to stores, meaning most of the gaming you'll be able to do is Standard or Limited.

And it's a lot easier to find people to play sports with you than it is to find people to play Magic.

And again, Standard cycles every year, and you'll need about 200 dollars for a good deck.

>> No.18558865

If you are spending money to build a standard deck in way that isn't "drafting" "one or two singles" you're doing it wrong.
Draft, draft, draft and trade. I only drafted Innistrad and got every card I wanted from that set through good trading and winning drafts/drafting. I only had to spend some money on scars duals and Swords because I did not trade/draft when that set was first coming out. I've done the same with Dark Ascension. Magic is cheap as hell when you do it right. Paying money to blindly crack packs is a waste of money and buying singles should be done sparingly and rarely.

>> No.18558888

Anywhere to download the online game for free?

>> No.18558955

>>18558865
No one wants to trade here. Or if they do want to trade, they don't want to trade stuff I want.

If I was smart, I would draft well, return my prize packs, and then trade and do it all again, but I'm not smart, and now I don't have the time to do that because I'm moving. I mean, really, if I could just do one round of Limited and not open my prize packs, I could just keep playing that at the very least, until I got enough cards. But the temptation is often too sweet.

Anyway, that's what I'll do when I settle down again, at least. C'est la vie.

>> No.18559008

I own a playset of every fetch, snapcasters, lily of the veil, goyf's, and dark confident :3

You guys jelly?

(I bought the cards when they were not a million dollars and spent prize money from winning tourneys on cards as I needed them.) Over the many years I have played this game I doubt I spent more then $600

>> No.18559023

>>18559008
Nope, because I have Judge Fetches and Judge Confidants.

>> No.18559189

>>18558955
>>18558865
Alright, can someone explain drafting to me? I've been trying to get into MTG, but I still don't understand the details of a draft game.

>> No.18559844

>>18559189
drafting is basically you get x amount of people (let's say eight) at a table. you all get three packs. you open a pack, dig through the pack and see a card that you can build around (or removal, or a straight bomb like hoard-smelter dragon) and you take it. you pass your pack to the left and the person to your right will do the same. now you take another card. basically, you're building a 40 card deck.
pack 2 goes right, pack 3 goes left again. in this current time you go last set in the block toward the first in opening packs (so one dark asc then 2 inni)

at first you'll probably have a hard time with it but it is a skill that develops naturally as you see how others take cards and build, and its very fun. you also generally walk away with at least a couple of rares and maybe even some packs. Where I play, the pool is 2 packs per player, and anyone who goes 2-1 in the swiss gets 2 packs. the 3-0s split the rest.

>>18558806

never spent that much on a single deck, especially for standard.

you're all so fulla shit, or just really really bad at this whole TCG thing.

>> No.18559886

>>18553074
Calling it P2W is a bit of a simplification, but it's surprisingly fitting, since you will win less if you have a bad deck and there is no practical way to gain a good deck without paying for specific cards.

>Thread over you can all go home.

>> No.18559902

I played Turn 2 infect last block rotation, and won about 85% of my games. I spent a total of MAYBE $20 on lands, and traded for the other few things I needed.

The deck in total was probably worth about $40, and it won. Well, it was more then, as this was when Mental Misstep carried a pretty hefty price tag, but still, it wasn't a ton, and I won more than $200 doing tournaments with it. I consider that one a net gain.

>> No.18559936

>>18559902
Y'know. Except for the fact that you also traded an unknown material value worth of cards away.
For all we know, they could've been collectable vintage cards worth hundreds of dollars.
Just because you only moved 20 dollars in money doesn't mean the deck is worth 20 dollars.

>> No.18560025

A line from Fight Club comes to mind here:

>"You determine your own level of involvement!"

If you don't want to pay to play "like a pro" then don't. I don't, I play almost entirely boosters because I enjoy opening them and I like a limited card pool. I also don't play competitively because I like a slightly weaker deck for more prolonged social play.

>> No.18560058

>>18559936

I can be pretty confident that he didn't, because he doesn't seem like a complete idiot.

>> No.18560096

>>18560025
Fucking this.

90% of the time, what you're fighting at your local FNM is either going to be:
A) 200$+ deck run by a scrub (and thus very beatable)
B) Random jank.deck.

In other words, you don't NEED to have a 200$ deck to win. Back during old mirrodin block, I was running a Scion of Darkness deck and owning face.

Now, if you want to compete at tournaments with large prizes or at PTQs, then you need those expensive decks. However, that's no different then any other professional or semi-professional sport (where you need plenty of dosh for high quality equipment).

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