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[ERROR] No.18408375 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Black Library is the doom of 40K's objectivity.

While a point of the setting is that the non-tiny-and-almost-irrelevant powers are all about as bad as each other, nearly everything from BL is about humanizing the Imperium and artificially elevating them above everyone else, both nonhuman and Chaos. The exceptions all involve CSMs, except for the one tiny exception of Fire Warrior, which was a video game novel that starred an extremely deviant protagonist. Ultimately, I believe the fanbase that reads BL books (I don't, for this exact reason) has an unrealistically sympathetic view of the utter shithole that is the Imperium.

Basically, I'm wondering when there'll ever be anything like Ciaphas Cain for the Lost and the Damned. Or Eldar, which I'd actually want most. Or Necrons. Heck, even the Dark Eldar would be interesting, maybe having a look at those members of society who aren't wholly evil, if any exist? Orks actually have more from their perspective, but it's helped by the fact that their perspective is extremely simple and self-explanatory, so the main problem doesn't exist there. Tyranids... all right, I can accept that they couldn't really star in their own book. But L&D/Eldar/Necron books are something that I would badly like to see, both because of their own interest and because it'd pull a bit of focus away from the overexposed and oversympathized Imperium.

>> No.18408400

>Tyranids... all right, I can accept that they couldn't really star in their own book.

Diaries of a Genestealer Magus - A romance novel in four chitinous generations.

>> No.18408404

Eldar Books:
Path of the Warrior
Path of the Seer
Dark Eldar:
Midnight on the Street of Long Knives
Path of the Renegade

Short Story collection mainly featuring aliums:
Fear the Xenos

Yeah they could use some more Xenos focused stuff. All the above are pretty good though.

>> No.18408457

The Imperium are the true good guys of the setting, so it's only right that they are portrayed as heroes.

>> No.18408460

Is it really that weird that humans write books about other humans in space?

Sure, I'd like to see more books about other races, but I understand why they usually write from the perspective of the imperium.

>> No.18408475

But they're all humans in space, wearing different skins. It's impossible for humans to create anything with a truly alien perspective, because it's humans making everything.

And I understand it, but also kind of hate it. I'd also like to see Chaos be less "lolevil" and more "different shit but same amount."

>> No.18408508


Humans can make things from an alien perspective. The way to do it is to know what a human thinks like, and then ignore it and think like the alien would. It's easier when you're making your own aliens than if you're needing to understand the quirks and thoughts of someone else's, though.

>> No.18408520

The imperial guard are portrayed as heroes, fighting against all odds.

The marines, and the Imperium in general because of them, are portrayed as colossal fucking Gary Stues.

>> No.18408542

Guard are the true sues, somehow winning against horrific alien threats despite being frail humans.

>> No.18408553

The first part doesn't make much sense either, because all the odds are in the Guard's favor. They have numbers, resources and logistics all on their side, far ahead of everyone else. The fact that the Guard ever loses at all is a testament to how well the other factions can do at exploiting what advantages they can with their lesser starting positions.

>> No.18408567

OP, you should read pic related. It's about an arbite that fully supports the Imperium and it's brutal ways. A very good read in my opinion, but I am stupid and wouldn't know a good book from a bad one.

>> No.18408575

>I'd also like to see Chaos be less "lolevil"
Well, if we see chaos as something evil, of course the faction of the same name will always be seen as evil.

Personally I think it would be more likely for the Tyranid to not be evil, just a misunderstood and very hungry race of Xenos.

>> No.18408578

Well, thank you, but I admit that I'd prefer something in which the Imperium's foes would have the spotlight.

>> No.18408584

GASP! It is easier for a human writer to write from the perspective of a human! This and other shocking developments at eleven.

>> No.18408586


Man, this is a pet gripe of mine, but wouldn't it just be "arbites"?
An Astartes is not called Astarte.

>> No.18408589

Irrelevant. I don't believe it's beyond the ability of the setting's authors to give them a chance to be portrayed otherwise.

>> No.18408605

Sure. To explain, my recommendation was just so you know that there is at least one (well, three) book that doesn't try to portray the IoM as a beacon of hope, sunny green fields and more bacon than you can eat.

>> No.18408607

She doesn't really support it, so much as she understands the necessity, and realizes that there really isn't a better way.
Because Arbite is an actual word. Though it's a German pun, not actually referring to an arbiter (another real word).

>> No.18408614

I don't know, perhaps you are right. I'm not too fluent with GW latin.

>> No.18408628

What's the weather going to be like?

>> No.18408629


>> No.18408631

Actually, Fire Warrior is quite good at that. I especially liked the parts that said how visually hideous everything of the Imperium was, for some reason, because it's easy to forget.

I find that notion ridiculous. No better way is being sought out.

>> No.18408637


I know about Arbeit, but within the context of 40k, I'm pretty sure it's just Arbites. [I always imagined it was a typo of Arbiter].

>> No.18408641

Deff Skwadrun is the only thing Black Library has produced (or will ever, for that matter), worth reading for Ork players.

>> No.18408642

Right. Tyranids lack any capacity for morality. In a sense, they're the most innocent army in the game.

>> No.18408662

Guard actually lose battles. And more importantly, take casualties, are injured, and aren't portrayed as super-special snowflakes. Indeed, the IG (yes even Guant's Ghosts) are portrayed as ablative meat-shields.

>> No.18408664

She's high-ranking, but not high enough to set policy, so she has to deal with what she has.

>> No.18408672

That's like saying ants are Mary Sues.

>> No.18408673

>Deff Skwadrun
I jizzed my pants just remembering that awesome shit.

>> No.18408679

There's always a choice. She could shoot to become promoted enough so that she can set policy. Or perhaps sneak around it when possible. Or leave altogether and find some way to go against the system.

>> No.18408691

> Tyranids
> Innocent
... Dear god,you're right.

>> No.18408693

>Deff Skwadrun
Deff Skwadrun!

>> No.18408706

>Guard actually lose battles.

So do Marines.

>take casualties

So do Marines.

>are injured

Just like Marines.

>aren't portrayed as super-special snowflakes

Just like Marines.

>Indeed, the IG (yes even Guant's Ghosts) are portrayed as ablative meat-shields.

And yet they still win and hold da line wiv der baals o steal.

>> No.18408723

No, they are sues because they fight aliums that make even the psess mehreens piss themselves, and they win/don't afraed of anyting.
Her other choice was "enforce this incredibly brutal justice system" or "become one of a part of the aforementioned system", even running away wasn't really an option. Where would she go?

She was working her way (very quickly I might add, she was the 5th or 6th highest-ranking person in her sector, at the age of 40 or so) up the ranks, in order to get into a position to make changes, unfortunately it's very hard to sneak around the arbites.

>> No.18408733

This was before her career was completely butt-fucked by something she couldn't have foreseen even if she was an alpha-class psyker with prescience.

>> No.18408736

What changes did she want to make?

>> No.18408742

If Tyranids ever got their own book, it would have to be like 'The Things', a short story about 'The Thing' from the point of view of The Thing itself.

Story: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/

>> No.18408749

Fuck if I know, she didn't get that far, she had just made her rank, and wasn't going to start thinking about changes until she got into position to make them, but she did think complaints about the system.... mostly "these people are fucking nuts, this could be done better X".

>> No.18408767

It sounds interesting, but as a rule, I'm not fond of tragedy. The only thing I'm interested in in 40K is lights in the darkness; more importantly, ones that try to cause change instead of just surviving.

>> No.18408775

>The only thing I'm interested in in 40K is lights in the darkness; more importantly, ones that try to cause change instead of just surviving.

You picked the wrong setting.

>> No.18408783

If you want chaos to not be "lolevil" read the night lord series. It does a great job with renegade/traitor legions and they aren't like the wordbearers trilogy where THEY are LOLDEMONSINMYPANTS type evil.

>> No.18408785


You must live a life of eternal disappointment.

40K is about those lights flickering, guttering, and then being doused by a pound of baby guts while everybody laughs.

>> No.18408794

She didn't die.... at least not to my knowledge. See:>>18408733

Though >>18408775
has a point, the setting itself isn't mature enough to have people fighting the dark, not in any meaningful way anyhow.

>> No.18408808

That's why I focus on Dawn of War and the RPGs. In the former, the Tau can take back Kronus and secure Kaurava, and the Eldar can win back Taldeer's soul. In the latter... I haven't really done any campaigns yet, but I've set out to make things happen.

>> No.18408821


People do fight the dark in that setting. The point of the setting is that A. they're very much in the minority, 2. they fail every damn time, and D. they are actually hurting their cause overall by doing anything in a way we would consider good.

>> No.18408839

Space Marines won on Kronus to further the Agenda their Chaos tainted Chapter Master.

>> No.18408845

Finish reading that sentence "in any meaningful way" means that they get others to help them, that they actually succeed once in awhile, and that they actually help their cause.

>> No.18408857

Irrelevant. I don't have to play DC that way.

And I'm not interested unless those rules don't apply, which is what I'm hoping for in said RPG campaigns. Luckily, the Rogue Trader GM is rather decent about that sort of thing; the DH one is an unknown quantity so far.

>> No.18408858

They can win back her soul stone, that is very different from her actual soul, for all we know it could be fucking empty, or someone else'.

>> No.18408878

To clarify: I don't mind being a minority. I do mind being doomed to failure; if that's the case, I simply won't play.

>> No.18408887

Depends on your GM, but if he wants to stay true to the fluff, you are doomed to failure. Talk to your GM about it.

>> No.18408891

>Irrelevant. I don't have to play DC that way.

Well if you're going to ignore canon why not just play warhams as My Little Pony happy go lucky adventures?

>> No.18408913


>If I'm doomed to failure, I just won't play.

Protip: That's life. You're going to die eventually, the sun will go supernova and wipe out civilization on earth, the Milky Way Galaxy will collide with the Andromeda Galaxy, flinging earth out into the cold intergalactic void or into the intense radiation of the new galactic core, and eventually the universe will spread itself so thin that it will become a cold a lifeless soup of lukewarm molecules.

Sleep well.

>> No.18408914

I don't know of any mods for that.

>> No.18408934

Like me, you don't internalize the fact and thus don't let it affect you in a significant way. In fact, I doubt human brains are capable of truly understanding that significance. However, it doesn't matter that much because "you're going to die eventually" renders the rest of the sentence irrelevant.

>> No.18408935

I doubt there will be civilization on Earth when the sun explodes, mostly because we will have wiped ourselves out or left well before that, and because it's expansion will fuck us well before it explodes.

>> No.18408959

I intend to, assuming he ever shows up. However, the Imperium is absolutely enormous and the fluff just seems to show us the worst stories because grimderp sells. It's hardly covered the complete possible spectrum of outcomes.

>> No.18408975


Fuck, that's what I meant. I meant Red Giant.

Goddammit, I need to sleep more often.

>> No.18408991

Grimderp is the point.

>> No.18408995

Which is why it's typically better to play something else.

>> No.18409004


>everything from BL is about humanizing the Imperium and artificially elevating them above everyone else
>doesn't understand propoganda

I think Eldar, Tau, and Imperium, are the only people who try to tell themselves that they're good guys.

So no, you cannot have an orc Ciaphas Cain

>> No.18409013

Or play it if you like grimderp.

>> No.18409030

>Implying Black Library Book are propaganda

>> No.18409038

But that's mostly teenage try-hards, they aren't very fun to play with.

>> No.18409043

It's a point I enjoy breaking.

>> No.18409048

The official line I've heard from GW is that they tend to steer BL away from xenos-centered books because they want the mind of the xenos to remain unknowable to the human mind. Bringing their thought patterns in line with human thought patterns would decrease the mystery or some shit.

>> No.18409061


You're forgetting the people who like the grimderp in an ironic way, like the same way they watch Rocky Horror Picture show or MST3K.

>> No.18409063

I don't think so, plenty of people find it fun because of of how over the top it is.

>> No.18409065


I am!

And you would do well to remember the benevolence of our great Emperor in allowing you to continue your pitiful existence.

>> No.18409070

I dunno, some Blood Axe nob who's got distinctly unorky views about surviving to see the next day, but is currently in charge of a Goff Warband, and having to survive the suicidal chances so he can get back to drinking fungus beer and eating grilled squig.

In this he's aided by his trusty Ammo grunt, who ends up doing all the work, but is too stupid to take credit. And believes in his boss so much he truely believes the nob is a great heroic ork.

>> No.18409081

Which is, from what I can tell of DoW, total bullshit. Even Eldar act fairly human to one another, Orks are already quite comprehensible, Tau aren't too far removed from humans mentally...

>> No.18409085

Indeed. Some people understand 40k is more derp than grim, and that's the way they like it.

>> No.18409089


That line hasn't been adhered to since Goto was allowed to write Eldar PoV's in Dawn of War series and Warrior Coven.

>> No.18409093



>> No.18409094

... Except the only thing it's actually over the top in is how immature it is.

>> No.18409101

Commissar sir, if it is supposed to be propaganda then why are the Emperor's Angels of Death shown to be mortal and fallible?
Why do the glorious Imperial Guard die so easily?

>> No.18409121


Bahahahahaha, immature.

Do you know what happens to people who bang on and on about 'maturity' and 'acting like an adult'?

They end up pottering about an old folk's home, talking about the weather and all the people who've died and all the people you're related to.

They become BORING.

>> No.18409154

Oh come now, that's the most applicable version. I could hardly see an Eldar Cain, even if it'd be worth it for the pun.

Although an Orkish Cain would probably be more like Blackadder.
Hmm... Kaptin Goffsnagga.
"Wot starts wif "Get 'ere", and ends with "ow"?"
"I dunno boss, wot?"
"Get 'ere!"

>> No.18409158

I'm just saying that when this (pic related) is standard fair, somebody needs to get their head examined. Everything in 40k is so dark, so grim, so edgy, so....CRAWLING IN MY SKIN! That it's aimed almost exclusively at teenagers and manchildren.

I can understand a degree of immaturity, but like I said: 40k is over the top in immaturity. I still like to play games, but I want one that isn't covered in things that make teenagers go "holy shit that was fuckwinawesome" especially when I've seen cooler things.

>> No.18409170


Because, brave trooper, just as they shall be honored for generations to come for their heroic sacrifice, so to shall you be remembered. Your name, and valorous deeds shall be recorded in the annuls of your regiment for all time.

Whatever perils we ship you to, whatever horrors you face in the abysse. Know that the Imperium has your back. A thousand of your brothers shall stand beside you, and though we be but mortal men, you would do well to remember.

Our triumph is absolute.

>> No.18409177

Play Tau?

>> No.18409189

>That one C.S Lewis quote


>> No.18409190


Did you ever watch or read heavy metal?

>> No.18409198

I did, but if you're not wearing a lumpy suit of powered armor, you might as well not show up to the battlefield.

>> No.18409213

>(pic related) is standard fair

But it's not, that's fan-art.

>> No.18409222

Yeah, depending on the story it was alright. Though it was always better than 40k, because the heroes were allowed to win, to change the setting, and to actually succeed in their primary mission.
Aside from the Gray Knight having a tiny head, he's only a little too ornate, clear the markings on his armor proper, but not the extraneous bits, and it's business as usual.

>> No.18409226

Do note that C. S. Lewis' "maturity" consisted of becoming a doctrinaire Christian who believed in Hell. He wasn't entirely wrong in the quote, but there's a difference between fearing seeming childish and thinking that something is just really stupid.

>> No.18409264


>because a hero was allowed to win after everybody else died.*


>> No.18409274

Sometimes the others would live, it was rare, but it happened.

>> No.18409299


But this is not.

>> No.18409313

...He's got t-rex arms. How does he hold that hammer?

>> No.18409320

By the power of greyskull and greypauldrons.

>> No.18409329

And shitty sense of perspective.

>> No.18409348

Actually I had an idea for a tyranid-based novel, switching between the PoV of the Hive mind, and a genestealer cult on a homeworld.

>> No.18409350

Succeeding "lights in the darkness" is hardly contradicting 40k fluff, at worst it may be out of tone.
The only non fluff thing you can do is permanent victory (at any scale) as chaos will always exist in a form or another and fuck up things (with the exception of tyranids total victory).

>> No.18409360

I bet it goes something like this:
>hunting for food
>hunting for food

>> No.18409365

That'd be an interesting perspective to take: trying to aid the Hive Mind in eating the galaxy because it's the only way to stop Chaos.

>> No.18409379

The warp distort the viewer senses.

> Warp

>> No.18409397


Starring John Grammaticus?

>> No.18409406

That doesn't change the fact that his armor is just as ludicrous-looking as >>18409158

>> No.18409435

I like making stories were things get better in 40k, but stories about the last desperate survivors of a now unstoppable tyranids galactic invasion, where all other power collapse, would be fine too.

>> No.18409449

Oh, I prefer stories about things getting better too; I'm the OP of this thread.

>> No.18409450


>> No.18409458

I was just pointing it out, no need to get butt-hurt about it.

>> No.18409478


quit your bitching and start writing.

>> No.18409508

>implying im butthurt and didnt want to just point something out

>> No.18409528

Speaking of Black Library, anyone know were to find a torrent of some 40k audiobooks ?

>> No.18409529

You're either butthurt or 12, because you are falling back to greentext, and image responses.

>> No.18409562 [DELETED] 

That picture is retarded. It's comparing some teenage japanese faggot to the fucking immortal warrior-god, saviour and ruler of a galactic human empire, who is ultimately responsible for the lives of untold billions of his subjects.

>> No.18409573

All aboard!

>> No.18409574

Just saying, instead of staying in a thread where its a discussion of a topic where people enjoy a certain characteristic about it and shooting them down for it you could be doing something else far more productive.

>> No.18409589

Except that's not the Emperor, just some fanart of a Grey Knight.

>> No.18409592

>someone saw my post

>> No.18409595

I'm doing several productive things right now, painting, entertaining myself, and sharing my opinion with people on the internet. While the last thing isn't so productive, the other two make up for it.

>> No.18409622

I was trying to say that, despite the hard on for grimderp tg have, good things can happen in 40k. Not good like "every one is friends now" but still.

Grimdark may be what 40k different from standard sf, but that doesn't mean grimdark is the only thing you can do in 40k. Like you don't have to use Force in every Star wars story.
Also, there is place between grimdark and mlp.

>> No.18409646


>> No.18409655

I never said sharing your opinion isn't productive, however doing it in such a way to where you don't discuss it but suggest your opinion is better than others is and in doing so causing unneeded arguments.

>> No.18409717

That's because I've come to the conclusion (over the years and years of arguing) that actually trying to argue my position with most 40k players is less productive than smacking my head against a brick wall. I'm more than willing to discuss it, but most people don't listen, because they're convinced that 40k is the greatest thing ever. Hell it's not even over the fucking top.

Behold the Galactus Engine, it's a machine made of the corpse of a planet-eating survivor of the previous, dead, universe, it's involved in a war involving a horse version of Thor (actually a cyborg who once fought Thor, proved himself worthy, and got a copy of Mjolnir), etc. This right here is over-the-fucking-top. 40k is smalltime.

>> No.18409732

"Oh shut up."

>> No.18409768

hmmm you make a good point, however if your looking to discuss it in a more intelligent place than a site where on some boards the space marines are memes i say go for it

>> No.18409791

Too bad the ending was fucking retarded, spend all that time telling fate where to shove it, and you let the girl go? Fuck you Simone.

>> No.18409823

If I wanted more intelligent conversation, I wouldn't talk to 40k players.

>> No.18409838

He didn't let her go, she couldn't live after he won. Simone being Simone, he couldn't accept happiness AND defeat. So he took the chance that he might win and keep the girl.

>> No.18409854

>Reality-warping powers
>Can't make the girl a real human again
.... Christ.

>> No.18409856


Oh come on, anyone with a brain would realize that there's more cool stuff in other places than what one sees in 40k.

What I'm reading here is starting to seem just like that time when we had Culture vs. 40k threads. And we don't want that.

>> No.18409900

I'm just saying, that I've heard all the arguments 40k players have had for their precious game, and pretty much all of them are because the people arguing for 40k don't know anything else.

>> No.18409927

"If I wanted more intelligent conversation, I wouldn't talk to 40k players."
Then why are you even here?

>> No.18409940

Because I want stupid conversation. Winning an easy argument is enjoyable practice for when I have to get involved in a real argument.

>> No.18409957

Plus I can always let it go into a meta-argument.

>> No.18409971

I applaud you sir

>> No.18409980

so, you want to give your poor poor ego a boost by feeling superior to others?


>> No.18409998

Uhh it's tempting to feed the troll but I won't.

>> No.18410010

Not really, if I wanted to do that I'd go to Walmart, where I am the most attractive person.

>> No.18410033

>OP is mad that the writers and the fans ultimately sympathize wth the most human factions from 40k.

its a bias caused by the fact that the readers an the writers are human. While there are other reads, you should not be too surprised by the fact that majority of BL will be about Imperium holding the line and whatnot.

>> No.18410050

Actually the OP wasn't mad, he just didn't want to get involved in a game in which he literally had no chance of actually succeeding at anything, but keep trying you'll get it eventually.

>> No.18410132

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, so polite sage.

The entire point of the end was restriction. He DID have the power to bring her back. Hell he could've brought back everyone who died, Kamina, Kittan, etc. But he didn't because if the old people would just stick around forever, there would be no room for any of the next generation to take a stand and do anything.

>> No.18410140

>Midnight on the Street of Long Knives
>Long Knives
what the fuck is this Nazi shit?

>> No.18410178

He should have allowed himself to save her life, bring her back nothing, he let her die in his fucking arms, all the power in the world, and he couldn't do a little proverbial CPR.

>> No.18410222

The various Night Lords books (starting with Soul Hunter) are pretty good at depicting Chaos Space Marines in something of a "good" light. The Word Bearers novels do the same, though they're portrayed as a fair bit more stereotypically "evil" than the Night Lords.

>> No.18410282

Actually he was just bitching about Black Library being objective.

>> No.18410288

I completely agree, Simon did deserve some happiness at the end, but they both knew she would disappear. I don't know, it was just a message of acceptance of life's hard truths and such. But Simon deserved happiness after that shit.

>> No.18410292

Initially anyway.

>> No.18410418

I had an idea for a book focusing on a Tzeentchen Heretek and his Defiler friend being forced to work with an under cover sister of battle and a delusional daemonette that thinks she's a loyalist comissar, to unfold a concpiracy involving Malice

>> No.18410446

Yes I know its utterly stupid

>> No.18412007

I rather enjoy reading 40k books. They are fun.

Especially the Ciaphas Cain novels. And I've found Spess Mareen novels are fun to read when I want pure action.

>> No.18415771

The major factions are in various ways recognizably human.

They're culturally different. Imperial Guardsmen should probably be very different than the audience. Yet in the Cain books, they are normal people. Outside of slang, they can be from many settings. The most zealous members come across as contemporary western patriots, rather than soon to be martyrs with a death fetish.

Space Marines seem non viable as characters. Centuries of indoctrination turning them into automatons that are carbon copies of their Chapter brothers. Yet they have friendships, rivalries, quirks. They have doubt and fear, they have enough differences for the story to work.

The reason for there being a bias is clear. But I'd rather have 3 books about Orks, than 10 more books about the Death Fuckers during the Horus Heresy.

>> No.18416012

Of course they're innocent, they're just fulfilling their biological imperative. Unfortunately for all biologicals, that imperative is to consume and evolve until they're the most dominant and evolved organism in the universe. But there's no malice behind it, only hunger, and the urge to reproduce.

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