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[ERROR] No.17827275 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So, /tg/. The rumours go that new CSM codex is just around the corner. What do 40k players expect of it? The rumours go that an Iron Warriors character (?) has been seen, with a huge servo harness
possible new Obliterators (plastic or Finecast?)
painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though
plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted

>> No.17827331

Sadly, most rumours from BoLS turn out to be bullshit. I hope for better Fast Attack choices, beefier HQs, more Chaos-unique vehicles, Daemonic Gifts, Marks, daemonic engines, some sort of flyer, representation of all Traitor Legions and more plastic kit goodness.

>> No.17827400

We want the third edition CSM book back. It was done perfectly fine then, and the last rewrite gimped it and stripped out 90% of the useful or interesting stuff. Gimme back the legion lists, wargear pages, and special rules, dammit.

>> No.17827408

> I hope for better Fast Attack choices
Dude, you have IA: Apocalypse Second Edition. You have Dreadclaws, Blight Drones and Hellblades. What else do you want?

>> No.17827419

I have a question and this thread looks like a good place to ask it.

Who is writing the newest Chaos codex?

>> No.17827438

Nothing concrete on this, but I hope M.a.t.t. W.a.r.d or Phil Kelly. Since Phil is doing Black Templars, it's either Cruddace or Matt.

>> No.17827465





And if Ward can repeat the tongue and cheek humor of the Ork parts in the Necron codex...Well a man can hope can't he?

>> No.17827507

Ward is our best bet. He does crunch pretty good.

>> No.17827555

Some sort of Chaos Drop Pod.

>> No.17827644

It's called a Dreadclaw

>> No.17827749

O hai

>> No.17827781

>praying for Ward
The end times are upon us, children.

>> No.17827810

In my opinion he redeemed himself with Newcrons. And if you consider Cruddace he is the lesser evil.

>> No.17827816

>implying CSM are getting a new codex before 6e Space Marines, Eldars, Tau, Space Wolfs, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Tyranids, Homeless Black Women, Imperial Guardsmen, Space Marines 6.5 and the squatting of the Chaos Legions

>> No.17827870


We need confirmation that Newcrons were not an anomaly before we can talk about redemption. What codex is next? Dark Angels? Black Templars?

>> No.17827902

I hope he does, since Chaos is non-Imperial. Cue Abaddon the Spiritual Liege.

>> No.17827958

Oh for fucks sake, this hate has gone on long enough. It was funny at the start but seriously?

He's no worse than the others. Yes, the fluff is ridiculous, but it's 40K, that's what its for. Don't like it? Play flames of war instead.

>> No.17827964

Okay, the usual things are getting a giant model, and a flyer.

Chaos already has a Daemon Prince for the giant thing. So we're probably just getting a plastic flyer.

Probably something smaller than a Hell blade or Hell talon though.

>> No.17827965

No, he redeeed himself with Newcrons AND the Grey Knights book, AKA: Ward's Apology. It lets you run Iyanden, Squat, Men of Iron, Lost and Damned, and dozens of other special lists that have lost their own rules and support over the years. It's the ultimate counts-as book. And because it is a 'Grey knights' codex and not a 'Daemon Hunters' codex, you can still play with the old DH codex and the counts-as lists of the new GK. Suck it, haters. Suck it hard.

>> No.17827991


>And because it is a 'Grey knights' codex and not a 'Daemon Hunters' codex, you can still play with the old DH codex

No you can't. It's illegal. Try that shit at a GW and they'll call the cops. Enjoy your $750 fine and up to 30 days in jail asshole.

>> No.17828009

All right, Anon, there was no Squats. The codex you saw was not a Squat codex. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

>> No.17828026

>Try that shit at a GW and they'll call the cops. Enjoy your $750 fine and up to 30 days in jail asshole.

That's the stupidest thing I've read all day, and I just finished reading through an atheism thread on FARK.com.

>> No.17828045

guys, seriously, you know that won't work on me. Not since I got that tumor pressing against my optic nerves.

>> No.17828081

Plastic Cult troops

>> No.17828087

'Coteaz' 100 points -- Squat Commander
3 gun servitors: 30 points -- Squat cannon-mechs
6 Warriors, Storm Bolters, carapace armor: 66 points -- Squat Guardsmen
Razorback w/TL-Lascannon: 80 points
146 points
876 Troops
10 interceptors w/ psibolt ammo and Force Halberds: 330 points -- Squat roughriders on war-segways or hover-bikes
660 fast attack
5-man Purgation squad, 4 psicannons -- 180 -- Squat heavy weapon team
360 points Heavy Support
total: 1960 points of Squats


>> No.17828094

It's all credible enough that I've started selling any of the older chaos marines stuff I know I won't paint or finish before the new bits are out.

Some of the models like really old plague marines are timeless so I'm keeping them but the current berserkers and vanilla csm just look awful compared to the new stuff the loyalists are sporting.

>> No.17828113


a drop pod that can drop off and pick up soldiers and take off again would be nice...Considering that blood angels have the faggy Storm Raven it would be nice for chaos to have some fast moving transports.

>> No.17828115

Ok Anons. We have to do it the hard way...

>> No.17828147

Oh and I'm somewhat worried this means my collection will expand even more. I've been playing csm superfriends with different paintschemes for a while because of the current codex.

Meaning my havocs have all been iron warriors, my bikes have all been red corsairs, you get the picture. Now I'll have to upscale all of that to seperate armies.

>> No.17828166

I don't thing GW will bring back Legion-specific rules, since they got rid of Doctrines and Traits for IG and Vanilla Marines. So your rainbow army should be fine. Some units that are good now might get nerfed like Lash DPs/Sorcerers and Obliterators.

>> No.17828179

Fuck the rainbow army. I want my Iron Warriors back.

>> No.17828185

As long as Matt doesn't FUCKING TOUCH THE SORORITAS AND MAKE THEM SHOOT A SNUFF FILM I am fine with him pulling his ass cheeks apart and letting his butt brownies fall on Chaos in a steaming pile of shit. As long as Tzeench is clean. DON'T FUCKING FUCK UP TZEENCH.

>> No.17828193

I'm making an Iron Warriors army too, so I want Basilisks or at least some sort of Chaos-hellcannon-thingy. The best we can hope for is a special character or some unit upgrade.

>> No.17828204


So long as they balance it out to make the rest of the army competitive then that'd be more than fine. Rather than essentially forcing you to play one list.


Yeah I do agree in principle, the reason I've got so many Death Guard is because I played it as a properly themed army in the codex before this. Though I seem to remember Iron Warriors being horrendously overpowered at that time too.

>> No.17828219

butt brownies

Now I'm making some cookies.


>> No.17828241

Ward didn't write the Sisters book, Cruddace did it if I remember.

>> No.17828244

What I want: 3rd Ed Chaos

Specifically: Veteran Skills, Daemonic Gifts, more versatile HQs, Fast Attack that's actually useful, Plastic Obliterators, Plastic Raptors.

>> No.17828247

I'd still hope to see Mireal Sabbathanel in the new codex

>> No.17828250

Given that the Space Wolves lost their Leman Russes, your Iron Warriors will certainly be out of luck.

You'll probably have to make do with a special character that grants Stuborn to all your guys.

>> No.17828262

I want my 20-man 2-wound Tzeentch Terminator squad deepstriking onto the board.

I want my Iron Warriors Statured Daemon Prince with Servo-arm (counts as an extra power fist (S10 monstrous Creature) and Daemonic Speed modeled as a twenty-foot-tall cyborg biker and still be playable.

I want my all-khorne-berzerker ary to still be just as competetive as a force comprised of equal parts units from all gods.

I want my Night Lords sacrificing force org slots to field extra Fast Attack units.

I want to rain fire and blood upon the servants of the false emperor, and upon the aliens too weak to embrace true power.

>> No.17828266

> War-segways
> hover-bikes
When the fuck did the Squats ever have these? The closest they came was their war-tricycles.

>> No.17828296

> Iron Warriors character
Fucking fuck-ass fuckers.
> Cult terminators
> plaguebearers back in codex

The less Chaos Marines focus on tech and the more on sorcery and daemons, the better, in my opinion. If Grey Knights are Pure Marines and Space Wolves are Viking Marines, I want Chaos to be Weird Marines.

>> No.17828314

I know, Stubborn would be awesome actually. >>17828262
>I want my Night Lords sacrificing force org slots to field extra Fast Attack units
Better hope Chaos gets some good FAs, since now we have mediocre bikes and raptors.

>> No.17828327

Old Ork codex had unique army upgrades depending on the clan paint scheme you chose.

They have scraped the clans, but have special characters that allow extra choices of certain units in the spirit of Clans

So Chaos may not have legion Specific armies anymore, but the special characters may support the same "feeling of a particular legion"

...on a side note, I'd like to see Assault Claws in the codex and cultist...even if stat wise all it is conscript guardsmen all but in name. Also Cheaper chaos land raiders...after all chaos dosen't have all the bulshit variants like loyalist now... you have to wonder who are the real techno heretics these days...also they should have the choice for "venerable" chaos dreadnoughts that are not crazed but are true elites while regulating crazed dreadnought with crapier stats in a fast slot as sucide squads like killa kanz

>> No.17828328

>Focus on Sorcery
>Khorne's marines killed psychers in their ranks
>haet magics

>> No.17828393

Yeah, special character unlocks certain things. Like Iron Warriors special character makes your units stubborn, moves obliterators to elites etc. Alpha Legion has Infiltrate all around and better cultists and some stuff to screw with your opponents, Night Lords has some LD-screwing stuff and assassins etc. The Chaos book should be just as thick as Vanilla Marines.
Also, bring back Doomrider.

>> No.17828432

Oh, psychic defence for Khorne units. Because they need it.

>> No.17828447

Oh, not all sorcery. Just Weird Shit over Tech Shit. I want to see the blessings of the dark gods in action. I want to look at the army I put down on the table and go "These marines are tainted" and not be lying to myself. I want to play CHAOS, not just Spiky.

>> No.17828501

What I would personally like to see:

Cult Units moved to Elite.
HQ units with a God's Mark, moves that god's Cult Unit to Troops.

Cultist troops, armed with lasguns.

Special Character HQs grant special abilities based on legions.

A Dreadnought that's useful.

A warp portal wargear item for sorcerers that acts like the Dark Eldar webway portal.

>> No.17828503

This. All of this. Chaos isn't Spikes, and I wish every GW Chaos Miniature wasn't laden with them.

>> No.17828525

Just to get the ideas percolating, I offer you the best damn fandex I've ever seen:


(Ignore the Sorceror's Coven, it doesn't work as written)

What would you say about Ethercannons as a weapon? Just thematically, I mean?

>> No.17828544

>Chaos isn't Spikes
That is a homage to 2 chaos gods.
Yes, they are spikes, not JUST spikes.
To wit, I'd like to see more influence from the Dark Mechanicus, outrageously powerful weapons that are both expensive AND limited in number.

>> No.17828551

> Chaos isn't spikes

Colour me curious: When did you start playing?

>> No.17828552

Oh! Daemon Armour as an upgrade for Aspiring Champions, Lords, Sorcerers and similar. 3+ armour save still, but gives you a 5+ invulnerable save.
Much like Possessed Marines and Daemon Princes (who would thus get Daemon Armour for free)

>> No.17828563

Dark Mechanicus should be like Skaven crazy-powerful but unstable weapons.
>Cult Units moved to Elite
No this is a bad idea. Cult TROOPS is one of the few good things in Chaos Dex.

>> No.17828609

Wait, did someone say you could use another codex and get Iyanden?

The Necron codex?


>> No.17828612

The idea would be to make you take a HQ of the same god to use their units.
And it would also make Abbadon more popular, since he has a Mark of every god.

>> No.17828613

Nope. Grey Knights.

>> No.17828620

I started playing with 3rd Edition Eldar, when they were released. I was about 12 or so.

What I'm saying is, there's a lot more to Chaos Marines than the defacto Chaos Marines box, which is full of Black Legionairres. All of the current Chaos Units are mostly Black-Legion oriented, I find it hard to imagine the Thousand Sons, or the Death Guard, would adorn their armour and vehicles with spikes and chains.

>> No.17828630

Then, tell me. Do you remember the thing in the 3e chaos codex that allowed you to reroll a failed to-hit roll in CC? Not master-crafting, the other thing.

>> No.17828638

The Death guard would have a single spike on their helmet, since their armour is meant to look like a Plaguebearer.

But yeah, I agree it'd be nice to get more variety in the chaos vehicles.

>> No.17828647

I've a feeling you're about to tell me. Is it spiky armour?

>> No.17828648

Well, this makes sense, if Chaos Lords get boosted, they are wimps now.

>> No.17828657

Spiky Bits.

>> No.17828663


>> No.17828680

>Impying that Abaddon and Kharn aren't the only viable and properly costed characters in the book
>needs to be more popular

>> No.17828692

Ah sorry, I'd heard Abaddon was regarded as terrible.
Fully owning up to my error, many apologies.

>> No.17828707

Abaddon is an absolute terror for his points. He just doesn't have a Paladin-esque Deathstar unit to walk around with. The only thing that is bad about him is his sword rebelling.

>> No.17828714

It always makes me smile a little at how Abbadon works best in a Spearhead formation. Drop him in with sac-melta terminators, melta the fuck out of something, then use the terminators as meatshields so the opponent has to deal with Abbadon next turn. A small, elite force cutting off the enemy's head.

>> No.17828721

Ah, thanks for the illumination.

>> No.17828723

You two need to talk.

>> No.17828740

Not really. If I run him, I do almost the same, maybe more terminators. I just tried to explain why people give him crap.

>> No.17828748

We apparantly get access to Thunderfire Cannons, in a typical example of Chaos Can Only Get The More Useless Imperial Weapons.

Me? I'd have taken the gods-damned Hellcannon from WHFB and tried to

>> No.17828755

I'm just happy if I can make a completely useless list that will get everything on the board killed in the more dramatic ways possible.

>> No.17828757

tried to figure out a way for it to suit. A giant cannon hurling globs of daemonic ichor-plasma, anyone?

>> No.17828766

> thunderfire cannons
> useless

Fuck that. I regularly switch between thunderfires and preds in my loyalist list. Remember, you only need to hit for the termor effect to go off, not wound.

>> No.17828780

>gods-damned Hellcannon

>> No.17828845

Grey Knights? Grey Knights?

It's not that I don't believe you, Anon, it's just that I've been hurt in the past. I've been hurt bad, baby.

Care to give the Farseer, Wraithguard, Wraithlord, Warlock equivalents?

In regards to a CSM Codex, I can only reiterate the Cults as Troops and 3rd Edition Codex (although I get a bit mixed up in what edition is what, see pic) that other Anons have said and my own preference that I have mentioned in previous threads: Better Daemon choices in the force organisation chart (FA Daemons, HS Daemons, Elites Daemons).

Also: This is a shitty. shitty. shittyily recycled idea.

>> No.17828866

>Also: This is a shitty. shitty. shittyily recycled idea
Why? Dreadclaws are expensive multi-use Droppods which take up a FA choice.

>> No.17828882

> Farseer
An Inquisitor with psychic abilities - hells, Coteaz would do nicely. Initiative 4, psychic power - and the ability to cast multiple powers with Coteaz - and anti-psychic defenses.
> Wraithguard
Terminators. Paladins, to be specific. Grab an Apothecary if toughness 4, 2 wounds, and a 2+ isn't durable enough for you.
> Wraithlord
Let's see. A fucking giant walker that uses the monstrous creature rules and mounts two weapons and a sword. Sounds like a Dreadknight to me!
> Warlock
If you go the Coteaz route, Psykers from the Inquisitorial Henchmen band. If you go the Inquisitor route, you'll have to make do with the regular troops who can focus together to fuck up the warp.

>> No.17828910

Let's do Thousand Sons using Space Wolves codex next.

>> No.17828923

You can try. I don't think it's a good fit. Give me something to try with Grey Knights, though.

>> No.17828944

Just in case you're not being sarcastic: OH MAN, YOU'RE RIGHT! I HOPE WE GET LANDSPEEDERS AS WELL!

I'm not in any hurry to download the GK book because I'm not convinced that Terminators even come close to Wraithguard, but thank you, I will read up on those entries in the future and hopefully I'll have a bit more of an open mind. I'm not familiar with the GK Psykers, but they might be clench the deal.

>> No.17828956

Grey Knights fit pre-Heresy 1k sons really good.

>> No.17828975

>Just in case you're not being sarcastic
I'm not being sarcastic, Chaos lacks a lot of mobility most 5ed armies have (Vendettas, Stormchickens, Doomscythes, Droppods etc.). Dreadclaws is one of the ways to cure that. And no, I don't want Chaos Land speeders.

>> No.17828978

>I'm not in any hurry to download the GK book because I'm not convinced that Terminators even come close to Wraithguard

What don't terminators do that you want wraithguard to do?

As for GK psykers, have this.

>> No.17828987

Yes, that's actually my plan if I ever use Marines - that or Slaaneshi Imperial Fists. That said, he didn't say GK. He said Space Wolves.

>> No.17828992

I'd quite like it if Chaos got those Drones, like the Nurgle Bile Drones, but the generic ones you see in Space Marine.

Fast, aerial things.

>son, bearbil

>> No.17829004

Yeah, Blight Drones are awesome, fast skimmers with basically short-ranged battle cannons.
>Slaaneshi Imperial Fists
What? I don't get it.
>Space Wolves
I think he's been sarcastic.

>> No.17829028

Yeah, I agree that CSMs lack a Drop Pod choice, but having it so obviously a SM rip off hurts. Yeah, yeah, CSMs were once SMs, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Warp Rift.
Ascetics: Similar to Coven Throne from VC WHFB.
Stats: Up for discussion.
- Similar to Drop Pod. Tweak as needed.
- "Send in the Next Wave" IG Conscript rules.
- Augments Psykers (bring back the bloody Psychic phase. GK took it in the right direction. Kill two birds with one stone)

>> No.17829070

Chaos needs traits. You buy traits, dark powers and mental illnesses just as IG had their doctrines. Additionally some character models that unlock certain things.

Flexibility is a must. I want my wargames to be more varied with multiple of "viable builds" and some tactics.

The HQs must be extremely flexible- just like Tyranids: cheap general or pimped out demi-god on steroids. Actually we have this part already with the Daemon Princes... but the flexibility of them is a farce.

>> No.17829080

Basically, take the Emperor's Children and stop them right around the time Isstvan happened. A subchapter of Imperial Fists that became more obsessed with the perfection of war, of everything being absolutely perfectly so, than with doing it in the name of the Emperor. They never even noticed the fall, until it was too late.

>> No.17829091

You still can't spam Dreadclaws if they are FA. It's not a big deal, if you include some good FA choices besides them. I'd actually would like to see cheaper Land Raiders (something around 180 pts) with, let's say HB sponsons base, you can upgrade to lascannons if you wish. They don't have machine spirit, so, whatever, I don't fire their guns usually and use them to transport my dudes. And Marks on Vehicles like Nurgle gives you -1 on damage rolls, Tzeench upgrades you bolters and flamers to ap 3, 5++ maybe.

>> No.17829104

>special character unlocks certain things
Nooooooooooo. This is a BAD IDEA that should be taken out and shot. Because people should be able to build their own armies and have their own fluff for them, if they're that way inclined, and not forced to take Big Heroic Dude No. 36 just to get the troop choices they want.

>> No.17829111

>Actually we have this part already with the Daemon Princes
Daemon Princes have little upgrades: Wings, Marks, Psychic Powers and that's it. Not to mention Warptime got nerfed hard.

>> No.17829123

You spoiled little child. Should the Golden Throne not exist because you want to have a different center of the Imperium? Should the space marines cease to exist because your army doesn't work if they do? You are playing Warhammer 40,000, owned by Games Workshop. You are playing in their universe, by their rules, with their models. You get the choice of playing or not, but the ability to build your own army and your own fluff is a privledge, and a rare one in wargaming at that, rather than a right.

>> No.17829127

> Warptime got nerfed hard
Uh, what? When was this, and what did they do?

>> No.17829152

>Slaaneshi Imperial Fists

Hey cut that shit out, you're wandering into my neck of the woods now.

>> No.17829158

Wraithguard (Current Eldar Codex): 35 points.
WS4, BS4, S5, T6, W1, I4, A1, Ld10, Sv3+
Fearless, Wraithsight, Wraithcannon (12", Assault 1, AP2, Wounds on 2+, 6= Instant Death. Vs Vehicles: 3, 4 = Glancing. 5, 6 = Penetrating)

Wraithguard (Eldar 3rd Edition Codex): 35 points.
WS4, BS4, S5, T5, W1, I4, A1, Ld10, Sv3+
Fearless, Wraithsight, Wraithcannon (12", Assault 1, AP1, Wounds on 4+, 6= Instant Death. Vs Vehicles: 4 = Glancing. 5, 6 = Penetrating)

Wraithguard (Eldar 2nd Edition Codex): 35 points.
Move 4, WS5, BS5, S5, T(AV10), W2, I4, A1, Ld9
Wraithcannon (Short range 0-8", Long range 8-16", To Wound 1-3 = Instant Death, 4-6 = Move target 2d6 random direction. Vs Vehicles/Buildings: Roll Hit Location and Damage immediately)

That Inv save on Terminators is nice, and if it's used to offset the lower T the I guess it averages out... But over all... I only am familiar with CSM Terminators and their stats certainly do not come close to any of those Wraithguard Stats.

>> No.17829160

Deal w/ it. Or we can take this up on vassal, if you'd like?

>> No.17829173

In the last CSM FAQ. Its now "Reroll all to hit/to wound dice or none"

>> No.17829185

Combine Chaos Lord and the Sorcerer. So basicly a Sorcerer is just a lord with Chaos Powers.

Give them the Wargear option of a Warp Portal (based on the D. Eldar and Eldar Corsair webway one):

Once per game, during the Shooting phase, a model with a Warp Portal may choose to activate it instead of firing. Place a spare small blast marker or similar sized counter in base contact with the bearer when he activates the portal.

From then on, any of your units arriving from Reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter if these units were inteaded to deep strike, outflank, or simply move on from their own table edge, etc). The portal cannot be destroyed.

After activation the model that possessed the portal may freely move away, leaving the portal in place. If you have a Warp Portal in your army, you may keep units in reserve, regardless of the mission being played. Vehicles cannot enter play via a Warp Portal.

Can be given to a Chaos Lord for +35 points.

>> No.17829186

Give us freedom (not to include stupid special characters) or give us death, tyrant!

>> No.17829202

Paladins (Grey Knight codex)
Ws5, Bs4, S4, T4, W2, I4, A2, Ld9, Sv2+/5++
And They Shall Know No Fear (Fearless, except when having Fearless would be bad at which point it's not),
The Aegis (-1 leadership to enemy psykers when targeted by their psychic powers)
Brotherhood of Psykers (they can use their psychic powers as long as one lives)
Combat Squads
Preferred Enemy: Daemons

Storm Bolter (24" Assault 2 S4 Ap5 - admittedly, not inspiring, but it can be upgraded to something much more powerful)
Nemesis Force Sword (Force weapon, +1 to invuln in CC, can be swapped out for more ferocious things)
Frak and Krag grenades
Psyk-Out Grenades (Reduces daemons and psykers to i1)

Hammerhand (psychic power, +1 STR)
Holocaust (psychic power, 12" S5 ap- Large Blast)

>> No.17829216

Which is...exactly how it is in the codex? You lost me. It doesn't say 'failed' anywhere.

>> No.17829220

I agree with your "No Special Character Unlocking Units", but unlocking special rule buffs shouldn't be immediately shot down. He hit the nail on the head with "The Chaos book should be just as thick as Vanilla Marines". The Space Marines codex should be the base for the CSM codex and they should then -heavily- modify it.

Oh, shush.

>> No.17829232

Why should I shush? What is wrong with them including units that match the fluff for the wargame THEY make and having these units play into the fluff THEY make? Why should your special snowflake chapter get more consideration?

>> No.17829239

My words. I wonder why they haven't included a chaos portal before.

Hell I just remembered my first computer game after Lego Island- Warhammer 40,000 Chaos Gate. So it began... the greatest money-draining storm of my age.

>> No.17829242

No, I mean how people used Warptime "Reroll misses/failed wounds". Now it's "If you want rerolls, you reroll all dice, including successes". So, lets say, Warptimed Daemon Prince swings 5 times, hits 3 times, so I have to reroll all, including 3 hits.

>> No.17829253


Badass picture. Emperor Wiseau.

O hai, Chaos.

>> No.17829257


I think you guys have the best idea of what CSM should be. The difference between SM and CSM, ideally, is the former has more tech and better tactics - thinking men's modern marines - while CSM are harder, corrupted, simply better marines with piss-poor tech - psycho, chaos Rogue Trader Marines.

Vanilla should have all their tech, but Chaos should have the complete flexibility of roaming warbands with warp-dickery and veterancy making up for their old tech.

>> No.17829258

I never saw anyone doing it the first way, and that just sounds fucking retarded. Where would they get the idea that's how that power worked?

>> No.17829264

which is exactly how the rule was written and meant to be played

people ASSUMED that it meant all missed rolls.. but there's no precedent for it being that way

>> No.17829285

holy shit that is fucking stupid...did any other psychic powers get that nerf?

>> No.17829296

> nerf
We're acutally discussing this. It's not a nerf, you were just playing counter to the rules. The FAQ reminded you just how the rules are.

If you want to continue to play counter to the rules, you're welcome to find people willing to do so and play on your own.

>> No.17829304

With Lash you now need to roll to hit, which you have to, if you think about it.
I guess I got it the other way around. I thought it meant "All misses and failed wounds"

>> No.17829307

All I can hear in this thread is "*whine, whine, whine* We want everything that SM/IG/GK/SW/BA/BT/DA have but at a lower cost becasue *whine, whine, whine"

>> No.17829322

Yeah, yeah. That's not going to work at all.

- WS > BS.
- T4 (assuming T3 is Weak-Normal and T4 is Tough-Normal)
- A2
- ATSKNF =! Fearless.
- DeepStrike
- Preferred Enemy: herp (not herp derp, but still herp)
- All Weapons: NOPE.JPG (I'll give you Psyk-Out Grenades, they'd make sense)

The Aegis is good, I can see that refluffed to work. Holocaust works, mostly. The AP- is the only thing that jars with it.

Basically, if I rolled Wraithlist and used the GK codex, I'd feel like a chump. And if someone did it against me, then they better be a Cool Dude and not That Guy.

>> No.17829323

Exact wording can be found here.
Warptime was never about failed rolls, just rolls.

Actually, I like the idea of Chaos as Marines+1. I fully support them being better statistically in most ways, as long as they have a corresponding increase in points. The old one tried for that and mostly succeeded, then 5th edition happened.

>> No.17829324


I don't think we are talking about special snowflake chapters. the only special snowflake chapters are actually those 1st founding chapters that turned chaos (because fuck Dorn).

I for one just want to have my own late typically secretive Dark Angels succession chapter that put its nose too far into the retrieval of Chaos Artifacts and grew mad. Short: your fluffy Dark Mechanicus collaborateur.

They say that thousands of chapters are newly founded and destroyed (daily?) according to one of the first pages of the 3rd edition rulebook. Of course some of those will end up corrupted (fluff says that the Imperium can't stop the corruption. It will continue until Chaos consumes all). So we just want to have small power hungry warbands that fight against other small newly founded chapters instead of fighting those 'epic wars between two legendary generals'.

Is this too much asked for? Flexibility gives a wargame what it usually lacks after 50 games: tactics and unusual, fluffy builds.

>> No.17829348

I never used warptime to begin with, however it seems quick ridiculous to me that 1. they decided to clarify this now, and 2. that they would clarify it in such as way that is counter to how most rerolls in this game are done.

>> No.17829356

Oh well, serves me right about making assumptions.

>> No.17829367

rerolls are always very specific on what dice are able to reroll

in this case, it does not say all MISSED hit/wound dice, it simply says ALL hit/wound dice

it's a cut and dry case, and it's more surprising that people didn't really read the rules they've been playing with

>> No.17829369

Give them Mutant Rabble as a troop option.

Gives a large number of meat-shields, perfect for Alpha Legion armies, can be represented by cultists, beastmen, imperial traitors.

>> No.17829392

Well so far I have only bought 30 marines, 2 lords,1 demon prince, 10 termis, 10 demons and 5 possessed.

I hope to have them painted before the new book and new models hit the stores. Hopefully as kind of "core" units all will have uses in 6th edition and I can buy whatever new characters or fast attack/support choices are needed.

>> No.17829403

I hope Ward is doing the new chaos. His fluff is dumb as hell, but the crunch is good. Maybe the fluff won't be so bad if he handles all of it, maybe we can just ignore the bullshit and keep the fun parts (like Trollzyn the Infinite). His treatment of Sisters is pretty fucking dumb though, to the point where I'm starting to wonder if he has issues with women.

But the rules are always solid, even the ones that look broken turn out to be high-tier but not to the point of dominating or creating an unbalanced metagame. He has yet to make Codex: Leafblower.

>> No.17829404

>Why should your special snowflake chapter get more consideration?

We may have inferred each other incorrectly.

I don't have a special snowflake chapter. I like building army lists without a requirement to have a very particular character just so I can utilise generic parts of the codex.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the CW:E codex, but I don't like the idea that if I want to make a Plague Marine army, being limited to two choices:
a) Plague Marines are Elites. Bulk of army will be "Not Plague Marines".
b) Take Typhus or a Chaos Lord with Mark of Nurgle and Plague Marines become Troop Choices.

It's unpleasant. It's confining. This isn't a competitive gripe, and I believe that in some circumstances it can be done very well (for example, Saim-Hann Wild Riders in the Craftworld: Eldar codex).

>> No.17829419

If you're making a Plague Marine army, why wouldn't your HQ be Nurglite?

>> No.17829421

You HAVE the ability to not take that character and use generic parts of the codex. It's the parts that are unique that are banned to you unless you take him. You still have troops choices, you still can field just marines. It's specifically fielding significant amounts of Death Guard that would take you to having to use the Death Guard character. Or did you think that Plague Marines just sort of happened in bulk in the 40k universe?

>> No.17829424

I really don't get what's whith all the hate towards SC's unlocking unit options. Have you fags seriously never heard of counts-as?
And it's not like you can't take your super special dual lightning claw biker commander as well, since you have two fucking HQ slots.

>> No.17829443

I don't mind the unlocking thing from special characters, I just personally think for Cult Units, they should be for any Lord with the appropriate mark. So if you want Noise Marine troops, you can take Lucius, a Lord of Slaanesh, a Sorcerer of Slaanesh, a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, or Abaddon.

>> No.17829446

>did you think that Plague Marines just sort of happened in bulk in the 40k universe?
I did. Bigger bulk than 'no more than ten plague marines have ever been seen outside the presence of this one dude', anyway.

Not that guy, but my issue wouldn't be needing a generic nurgle HQ, but having to take a named character without equipment options etc. As anon up there said, it's needlessly confining.

>> No.17829456

> no more than 10 plague marines
> unit size: 5-20

>> No.17829458

Ah yeah, special characters for cult troops I'm not in favour of. Just the mark of Slaanesh.

But yeah, Cult troops are specialized and somewhat rare units, most come from their original legions (although there are a few from later renegades).

>> No.17829467

I actually want Cult Troops to get Terminator Armour for X points.

>> No.17829474

So that's 20 for a single unit. 3 Elite slots. You could have 60 without them being troops.

>> No.17829493

Apparently some people don't think 60 marines is a lot.

>> No.17829509

But why require the presence of one named guy to make those 60 troops?

>> No.17829514

Because that named guy is the leader of the Death Guard, and the one guy that can call upon them at the level that troops represent. Nobody else has Plague Marines regularly enough in mass enough to rely on them as basic ground troops.

>> No.17829522

Firstly, I'm the guy calling for it to be mark based, not just for Typhus.
Secondly, because the Plague Marines wouldn't be devoted to serving a Chaos Lord who didn't follow their god. They'd fight for him (in smaller numbers), but wouldn't care enough to hold his objectivies.

>> No.17829527

>that named guy is the leader of the Death Guard
No, he was just 1st Captain of Death Guard, now he's Nurgle's most favored Champion. He's by no means a leader of the Legion. It's just like saying "Ahriman is the leader of 1k Sons"

>> No.17829554

Gotta agree there.
Plague Marines should be troops for any Nurglite warlord, from Typhus, to Necrosius, to Bubonicus.

>> No.17829570

And Plague Marines=/= Death Guard, just like Khorne Berserkers=/=World Eaters

>> No.17829577

Okay, just to be clear, I'm seeing three different view points here, right?

- Plague Marines should be Troops.
- Plague Marines should be Elites, but with a HQ unit with a Mark of Nurgle, they become Troops.
- Plague Marines should be Elites, but with Typhus, they should become Troops.

>> No.17829612

Troops and troops only. Taking Terminator armour on them makes them Elites.

>> No.17829616


Lord Scabies always damned the day he had picked his name without consulting a medical text.

>> No.17829617

Why? What makes them more common than, say, Havocs?

>> No.17829641

Are they that awesome to be considered Elites?

>> No.17829647

Generally speaking, yes.

>> No.17829675

I'd say not really. They are good at tarpiting certain units and dual meltagunning things. They are not that great in close combat and they are nowhere near as shooty as Chosen or Sternguard. Just like making Thousand Sons Elites is ridiculous, they make mediocre Elites.

>> No.17829678

Every CSM is a cult marine -or just a mad undivided Chaos hippie. But some are more culty. I think they should be troops with the appropriate mark-bearing lord.

>> No.17829680

That was just was an example!

Look, I understand that you're going for the counter to the Legal Mary Sue army and I respect and understand that. No one wants to play against That Guy who has a 320 page backstory involving Lash and Plague Marines (WW and a 320 page backstory involving Lash and PMs might be fine), but it's a subtle balance between freedom and restriction. Warhammer, in all its iterations, has always been about freedom and I believe it's better to fall on that side of the fence than the alternative.

And Plague Marines do "just happen".

>> No.17829681

OK, let's say only this one guy commands them in sufficient concentration... now, why would he have to be there in person every time they appear? Can't he, y'know, send orders every once in a while? Wouldn't he get tired of having to make a personal appearance every time and place his boys show up? And what happens in an actual war, when they might be attacking more than one place at once?

>> No.17829692

For the same reason that a Marine biker army needs a captain on a bike for bikers to be troops. Or you need a Haemonculus for troop wracks.

Them being "off battlefield" doesn't work there.

>> No.17829707

Don't know why I'm doing this about Chaos actually, though, it's Corteaz who's the annoying one.

>The inquisition is made up of untold millions across the galaxy
>They have all manner of crazy shit like you wouldn't believe
>But this shit only actually appears on the battlefield when Corteaz does

>> No.17829713

Yeah, but that's no problem. My issue is that needing a single named dude to be there is silly and restrictive for no good reason.

>> No.17829716


You are expected to count-as him.
>played tarors
Your will is my command Chaos Lord Captcha. My next Coteaz counts-as is the dark sorceror Tarors himself!

>> No.17829728

You do realize that battles in standard 40k represent skirmishes that change the shape of entire war efforts, right?
That's why an elite shocktrooper force like marines have an army.
That's why the supreme commanders of ENTIRE ARMIES can be personally present for a battle, despite it being relatively small scale.
The units present represent the personal contingents of the leader on the field, that's why it makes sense for a HQ to unlock certain options; it represents their preferences in the soldiers they have following.
A biker captain gets you biker troops because that is the preference of that HQ, the retinue he travels with. I agree that a HQ with a Mark of Nurgle should get you plague marine troops, but I also feel more named HQs should go the Draigo route versus Abbadon: instead of being unholy beatsticks that can shred what they face in combat, they should be leaders, opening tactical strategies and options for their preferred force.
Typhus should bring a buff to plague marines, a moral supporting that Nurgle's Herald himself fights alongside them.

>> No.17829733

Librarian 150
-Mastercrafted Nemesis Falchions 15 points
-3 extra psychic powers (whatever, doesn't matter) 15 points
HQ: 180 points
-------------One Farseer.
Terminator Squad, Force Halberds, 10 men: 400
-Psybolt Ammo: 20 points
420 points
Troops: 1460 Points
-------------Wraithguard. 30 of them.
Dreadknight 130
-Heavy Psycannon 40
-Nemesis DaemonHammer 10
Heavy Support: 360 Points
-----------------2 Wraithlords
Total: 2000 points of Iyanden Ghost Warriors.

>> No.17829741

Because it's pretty easy to sub out a name and call him instead Lord Inquisitor Granitechin Rockbreaker.
Methinks that too many people focus too hard on the name, versus what they mean in use, as though 40k was a STORY, not a setting.

>> No.17829758

As a primarily Eldar player, let me say a few things:
Our Aspects are (generally) in the Elites section.
This creates some problems.
When we choose Fire Dragons, it means we can't have as many Scorps or Banshees.
We can have 30 Fire Dragons. But that's a heavy % of our army and 3 squads is still only 3 squads.

tl;dr Extremes are bad. Cultists as Troops CAN BE open for abuse. Nice middle ground = good.

>> No.17829767

Eh, I guess this is just the problem. Funny thing is, my way of thinking is exactly the opposite of the Mary Sue unique snowflake thing mentioned earlier. I'd prefer my army to be just a bunch of guys killing stuff in the middle of a war, not The Ultimate Battle to Seal the Fate of Whatever, at which Two Ultimate Heroes Will Face Each Other At Last. But I'm not too bothered about it.

Unique leaders having fun tactical options, though, is a good idea and I'm down with that.

>> No.17829790

>Typhus should bring a buff to plague marines, a moral supporting that Nurgle's Herald himself fights alongside them.
I like this.
Can we have Plague Marines and other Cultists as Troops as well as this?

>> No.17829798

I like the Eldar way of making Wraithguard troops- you can do it, but only with a full-size squad of 'em, which costs A LOT. You can go wraithguard, but you have to go big. Better, I think, than 'only the legendary Wraithseer Affirkava Ultannanananar can command a wraithguard army'.

>> No.17829802

Typhus gives all plague marines poisoned weapons, maybe? Or the option to do that to units with the mark of nurgle.

>> No.17829809

I agree, that is a nice way to handle it.

Whatever way it's handled, Unit slot manipulation should really be via generic units, rather than special characters.
Special characters should provide buffs instead.

>> No.17829811

This. I want to play my CSM as a bunch of rogue marines who follow a crazed champion of their God of choice. Those champions are mighty- but not overpowered.

I think the special characters were created exactly for this- as they are not as powerful as I'd imagine hem to be, regarding the fluff. Except maybe Abbadon, who truly gets those stats that fit his exploits.

>> No.17829843

And I'd wanna play my Plague Marines as a rogue warband of the Death Guard (like the purge, and others)
I'd just want a nugle theme without Typhus.

>> No.17829883

As it stands, that's the ideal way to win both IRL battles and games of 40K. So many people load up on special-snowflake units when they'd be better off just taking more troop choices to gun down the enemy with. You win by killing a higher percentage of the enemy than they can kill of you. Marines, IG, Tau, Necrons, and Chaos, are all in the same boat. Lots of fancy units to distract players from what actually works: More troops. Just about every Fast Attack, Elite, and HQ choice in the entire game is worthless when compared to Troop and Heavy Support units of similar points value, and a large number of heavy choices are pretty useless too.

>> No.17829903

I'm glad we all won the thread.

Thanks everyone.

>> No.17829920

A unit or two of scout bikers is 'ard as fuck, and gives a 4+ cover save to everything behind it. A sanguinary priest gives a bunch of shit FnP and FC. A librarian protects against the enemy's foul warp-trickery. Devastators take out the vehicles so that you can assault the contents, or reduces the quantity of incoming fire.

>> No.17830410

That's why Chaos is different from Vanilla Marines, he gets alot of it's killing power from troops.

>> No.17830935

>elites are useless, get more troops
>not the exact opposite
Tau doesn't have competitive army lists, but thE closet they come is by taking minimum numbers of fire warriors.

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