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16677431 No.16677431 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>new codex.
>"Fucking eldar got worfed again! Ten avatars killed! Scout sergeant Bawls shotgun'd a farseer!? MOTHERFUCK YOU! Next time, treat my pet army better"
>new codex
>eldar mentioned as the main threat, and reason for X.
>"Fucking Mat Ward mentioned my eldar! Fucking fuck! No enslavers!? This is bullshit! How dare he make my eldar sound important!? Oh, look, he didn't even put in a single avatar. It's like he doesn't love us at all. Fucking xenophobe. Racist fuck. FUCK FUCK!"
>yfw eldarfans are the worst people on the planet.

>> No.16677453

>>16677431

which codex was this

>> No.16677473

>>16677453

Newcrons. They're listed as the mean reason necrons went into stasis. No mention at all of bullshit enslavers, or avatars getting raped in any way.

>> No.16677474

actually, the tau players are slightly worse, and the SoB fanboys a lot worse

>> No.16677491

>>16677474

SoB fans are fucking insane. I've seen them rage here, on this very board, that Ward styling one of their completely useless characters up as a hero, so she could die with honor and dignity against a hive tyrant, to be heresy.

Why?
Ward didn't mention all the *hundreds* of guardsmen she saves in the 'old' piece.

>> No.16677509

>>16677474
And Space Wolves fans are even worse than them. Followed by IG fans.

>> No.16677519

Meh...

Eldar players are dicks anyway.

>> No.16677529

In the grim dark present of the second millenium

There are only dicks

>> No.16677549
File: 46 KB, 474x683, eldar janitor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677549

Eldar love claiming their army takes tactical genius to play.

Point out they always start everything off the board, and roll a lot of dice with their 9001 scatterlasers.

>> No.16677557

I hate everyone who plays 40k (or you know, just everyone) regardless of the army they collect on some level, Friends, strangers, even myself.

But I put that down to me just being a bit of a bastard...

But even I don't create rage threads on imageboards about it.
But I put that down to

>> No.16677572

>>16677549
Still... Eldar take a lot more planning than the 'big 3' 5th edition codices, that are all pretty much just 'point-click-win'.

>> No.16677591

>>16677529

Not if you'd play other games... but let's not open up that particular can of worms.

I find that Eldar seem to attract the kind of players who want to be able to claim that they're not breaking any rules while still bending the rules in to a pretzel in the process.

>> No.16677612

>>16677591
>I find that Eldar seem to attract the kind of players who want to be able to claim that they're not breaking any rules while still bending the rules in to a pretzel in the process.
Such as?

>> No.16677616

>>16677572

>everything starts off the table.
>get +2 to reserve rolls.
>no rolls 'til turn 2.
>everything comes in.
>2585852 dice for scatter lasers. Roll them.
>firedragons shoot shit. It dies. Always.

Yeah, okay.

>> No.16677636

>>16677549

I play with Eldrad, LOADS of Guardians(and storm guardians), Dark Reapers and a Wraithlord, all starting on-table.

What now?

>> No.16677651
File: 27 KB, 215x233, baw macha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677651

>>16677612

"Herpa derp! My farseer can shoot this shit out of his transport, even with no firepoints, because it's not listed to work that way in the rulebook!"

"I gotz me these invincible falcons with harlequins."

"Starcannons? Yeah, I've got more than you've got marines."

"Durr, hurr. Eldrad every game."

"I'll use all these buffs."

"No, I don't think it's unfair that my vehicles are almost invincible."

>5th edition hits.
>pic related.

>> No.16677657

>>16677612
Too many to remember.

maybe it's just the ones in my area, but they're all "LOL too Tactical for you" and purposely are able to quote rules like scripture to claim that their border-line cheating game play is still legal. Technically it is, but they're still being massive dicks about it.

>> No.16677660

>>16677636

"You will never win a game, ever, except against tyranids."

>> No.16677679

>>16677591
>I find that Eldar seem to attract the kind of players who want to be able to claim that they're not breaking any rules while still bending the rules in to a pretzel in the process.

That's nice. I find that Space Marines attract the kind of player who tends to be cocky, arrogant, and full of self-entitlement issues, while simultaneously being an ass 90% of them time with comments like "hurr fooken xenos", or "durr guard only exist to hold the line".

>> No.16677686

>>16677660

I play against Spess & Chaos Spess most of the time (Does anyone actually play anything else?) and win consistently, depending on terrain and "tactics".

>> No.16677709

Eldar are shit on the table, they have 1 good list, 2 lists that can win with a good general and an ok opponent, and a couple others that people claim they can win with (most likely baby seal clubbing).

Compare that to marines, IG, DE, nids, and even the old marine books like DA and BT, and you will find that the current eldar are a bunch of poorly thought out copy pasta from previous book without any re-balance for all the good options they stripped out.

This in my mind means the story is following the fluff, with new book bitch slapping avatars. The fact that necrons are actually afraid of them could mean one of 2 things. Either necrons are going to remain shit tier even after rebuild, or eldar are getting a book soon that gives a reason for such treatment.

>> No.16677712
File: 13 KB, 392x357, 1287101694696.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677712

Now that Necrons are just Tomb King in space, how long until we get all of the other HW Fantasy crap thrown into 40k as well?

When will the Nightlords, for example, be vampires in space again like they where in 3rd edition?

>> No.16677739
File: 66 KB, 482x599, metalboxes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677739

>>16677686

Maybe they should use some rhinos.

>> No.16677747

>>16677679
Guard are manly as fuck.

When the threats in the galaxy are half-braindead brutes, giant insects, depraved S&M elves, power-armored demon-worshipers, and the demons they worship, it takes some big brass ones to stand there with nothing more than an over-glorified laser pointer and some tanks that seem like they belong in WWII.

>> No.16677751

>>16677679
I've heard that many of my fellow fa/tg/uys take offense at things overly easily and stereotype and exaggerate anything that annoys them.

>> No.16677765
File: 366 KB, 504x504, WarlockInferno.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677765

>>16677473
Eldar fan here. Necrons going into stasis because they were fucking terrified of the rising Eldar Empire? I am real happy with this.

>> No.16677774

>>16677747
No. They only fight because of Comissars. Unless they are Mordian, Stormtrooper, Death Korps or Catachan.

>> No.16677775

>>16677712
>When will the Nightlords, for example, be vampires in space again like they where in 3rd edition?

I'd welcome this change.

Just so they'd have some kind of flavor to them.

But no, the Blood Angels already took that.

>> No.16677776

>>16677747
>hurr HFW
Why is that the guard players obsessed with the idea of HFY bullshit are always the most out-of-shape and generally worthless?

>> No.16677786

>>16677431
I have not seen a single person react like this.

>> No.16677792

>>16677747

>it takes some big brass ones to stand there with nothing more than an over-glorified laser pointer and some tanks that seem like they belong in WWII.

But they dont, they break and run away

>> No.16677793

>>16677747
Yeah no, IG have like a billion fellow soldiers with them at any battle. They don't have to fear shit because the enemy is just getting zerged.

>> No.16677798

>>16677776
Because most people prefer to see things on a brighter scale than reality permits.

>> No.16677802

>>16677776
Oldish /tg/ copypasta

Anonymous 10/06/09(Tue)21:31 No.6163831

>>6163701
It's been said that nationalism is for those who have no other possibly redeeming feature, and thus have to try and make do with their nationality.

"FUCK YEAR HUMANITY" is starting to strike me as much of the same, when you desperately have to feel superior about something, and nothing else presents itself, your species will have to do.

>> No.16677813

>>16677776
I don't even play guard, and I have to admit that any normal human being would probably shit themselves and run away screaming at the sight of the threats humanity faces in the 40K universe.

>> No.16677817

>>16677765
I guess I need to pose the question, why were they terrified though? If only because the old book established that the Necrontyr were superior to the Old Ones in virtually everything except FTL travel and health care.

>> No.16677827

>>16677775
One would be evil chaos batman vampires and the other are 'cry me a river, my wounds they do not heal' faggot vampires.

Both can exist man. Blood Angels are already loyalist homo-marines, might as well make them fully embrace it.

>> No.16677870
File: 116 KB, 364x579, techupbitch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677870

>>16677817
Eldar held their own against the Necrons with nothing but bronze age tech.

Teched up, they were holyfuckpowerful. Just look at some of the tech Commorragh has lying around like black holes in boxes. That's just remnants from the Eldar Empire.

>> No.16677879

>>16677817

Because the necrons lost most of their dudes to the war with c'tan, while the eldar were ignored because they were 'lesser.'
So when their war stopped, they had eldar up the asshole, and these eldar had proper guns, undead robots made of lightning resistant plastic, and black hole cannons.

Then they decided to sleep until the eldar empire was dead, and now it is.

>> No.16677887

>>16677813
And a lot of the guard do.

>> No.16677900

>>16677870
>nothing but bronze age tech

Didn't they do it with Old Ones-age super tech? Older fluff has them created and armed specifically for combating the Necrontyr.

>> No.16677901

>>16677651
>Eldrad being only valid point, the rest is exaggerations.
>Starcannons cost like... 2-3 tac marines for one. Wut.
>Dat highest AR being 12... invincible tanks...

>> No.16677932

>>16677900
There was an article on the old GW site. They just had bronze age tech.

Well, on the psychic side of things, they were really powerful psykers and at the time didn't need to limit themselves to avoid daemons or anything.

But that just underlines how powerful they were once they also had good tech.

>> No.16677945

>>16677813
That's the reason commissars kill those who retreat, so that everybody else is motivated to stay in line and not flee. Otherwise, the guard would break apart completely.
The IG is composed of billions and billions of conscripts whose commanders believe that ordering troops to charge the fort until their bodies form a ramp for the tanks to get over the wall is a viable strategy.

>> No.16677959
File: 41 KB, 416x431, Don't Mkae Me Say It.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677959

>> No.16677973

>>16677901

>is a newfag.
>doesn't know about 3rd and 4th edition.
>has no idea eldar was the most powerful shit ever since 2nd edition.

>> No.16677974
File: 173 KB, 1020x816, WarpSpiderExarch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16677974

>>16677813
Nah. They'd have nowhere to run to. I don't doubt that 99% of guardsmen, when they go into battle with, say, Warp Spiders, and their comrades are being shredded by invisible wires all around them, would shit themselves and want to run. But they can't, because what's behind them? More guardsmen, pressing forwards. What's behind those? Big cumbersome tanks that will crush anyone who tries to run. What's on top of the tanks? Commissars who shoot anyone who tries to turn back and run, or doesn't shoot.

There's no choice but to push forwards and aim your lasgun and fire, no matter how terrified you are.

Bravery's got nothing to do with it.

>> No.16677996

>>16677974
should just turn around and shoot the commissar.

Then break.

>> No.16678009

I honestly forget that Eldar even exist, most of the time. In my mind, the Tau and Eldar occupy this kind of nebulous blob, so I end up with blue commie space elves with yellow armor.

>> No.16678019

>>16677996
Any man the Commissar sees turning around, he just shoots. An entire mob of guardsmen all break at once? They get shelled as a warning to the others.

>> No.16678036

>>16677996
Catachans used to have a rule for that.
For every Commissar you took in the army, you had to roll a d6. For every 1 or 2, the commissar is removed from play before the game even begins to represent an 'unfortunate accident' befalling the Commissar.
Then again, Catachans are just naturally ballsy as hell.

>> No.16678039
File: 707 KB, 800x1067, eldar troll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678039

>>16677901

>armor 12 vehicles that downgrade all penetrating hits to glancing.
>hit on 6's only in combat.
>4+ cover save always.
>can shoot everything with S6 or less while moving 12.
>roll 2d6 for damage, apply lowest.
>stuffed full of rending harlequins. Rending is on the 'to hit'-roll.
>boost falcon with fortune.
>starcannons heavy 3, at 10-20 points for everything.
>badass cover gives a 5+. No blanket cover save, ever.

>> No.16678068
File: 2 KB, 192x213, 1276363521919.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678068

Here are the worst fans of Warhammer 40k:

Space Marines
Space Wolves
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Chaos
Sisters of Battle
Orks
Eldar
Necrons
Tau
Imperial Guard
Tyranids

>> No.16678070

Is-is this a Matt Ward thread? A Matt Ward SUPPORT thread?

/tg/,why?

>> No.16678076

>>16678039
since when were my Eldar Tanks this powerful? Holy shit.

>armor 12 vehicles that downgrade all penetrating hits to glancing.

wow I want this.

>4+ cover save always.
How

>> No.16678077
File: 263 KB, 900x1272, 1313878797023.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678077

FUCKING XENOS!!!

You shall be purged by the might of the Imperium. None shall stand against us!

>> No.16678081

>>16678068
So only Dark Angels and Dark Eldar fans are good?

>> No.16678091

>>16678068

I guess us Dark Eldar players are just cool peeps eh?

>> No.16678093

>Play Eldar
>Don't mind that Avatars sometimes get killed by heroes of other armies, because that's what happens in other codices.
>Genuinely like the new necron fluff.
>Play to have fun with my Ulthwe army, not to win.
This entire thread is douchebags complaining about douchebags being douchebags. Grow up.

>> No.16678099

>>16678076
I'm not sure about the 4+, but in 4th edition at least, if a skimmer moved more then 6", pens became glances. Though I think that you could still wreck a vehicle on a 6 on the glancing hit table. Which is why everyone took Falcons with Holos and didn't bother with Serpents.

>> No.16678102
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16678102

>>16678068
Oh, that is so true. But in what order?
Wait...
>No DE
>No GK
>mfw the best codices have the best fans, cuz they don't whine.

>> No.16678105

>>16678093
>implying "playing for fun" and "playing to win" are mutually exclusive.

grow the fuck up and stop making excuses for being terrible at a game you play.

>> No.16678117

>>16678093
>play to have fun
>play to not win
Pick one. Losing isn't fun unless you're a masochist.

>> No.16678130

>>16678068
>tyranids
>worst fans
Really?
Dude, no. Tyranid players have the best bro-to-autist ratio out of any 40k faction. And I hate the 'Nids

>> No.16678140

>>16678102
GK fans don't have to be terrible because their army does that for them.

But hell I'm just buttmad. Even if they are terrible as a concept. Seriously, why the fuck would incredibly resource intensive hard to produce super rare daemon killers ever fight fucking orks or necrons. Or anyone but daemons or chaos

>> No.16678144

>>16678117
Not if you lose all the time, no.

But you shouldn't need to always win to have fun playing a game.

>> No.16678146

>>16678076

Every edition except 5th has STRONGLY favored xenos - eldar, especially.

There was a time when you couldn't win with marines if you played against xenos. You just couldn't do it.

This was pre-Ward, and the game was fucking terrible.

>> No.16678166

>>16678117
>mfw losing while playing friends/not assholes is quite enjoyable
>mfw you take the game far too seriously

>> No.16678168

>>16678099

Move 12. 4+ coversave.

Now it's 'move flat out, you pussy, or you get no cover save.'

3rd even had weird rules for moving skimmers in the third dimension, and told you how to properly measure it. Shit was so not cash, let me tell you.

>> No.16678187

>>16678166
Actually, I don't take the game seriously enough. I just want to kick some ass, I'm not into all the STRATEGIC DEPTH and TACTICAL DRAMA that you are, that you would not even care if you win or lose.

>> No.16678209

>>16678140

Because the ork warboss is possessed!

>> No.16678213

>>16678187
I play GAMES to ENJOY myself. I do not have to beat someone to do this.

>> No.16678215

>>16678168
>Now it's 'move flat out, you pussy, or you get no cover save.'
>Wait, nevermind, I have 6 Hydras.

Also, fuck Mechdar, that shit gets boring to play in 1 game.

>> No.16678223

>>16678213
Yes, you're a masochist, WE KNOW. The rest of us don't derive enjoyment from being beaten.

>> No.16678232

>>16678168
>3rd even had weird rules for moving skimmers in the third dimension, and told you how to properly measure it. Shit was so not cash, let me tell you.
Does that mean... pop-up attacks?
>Also, fuck Mechdar, that shit gets boring to play in 1 game.
I think for Eldar it's that or roll over and die... ;_;

>> No.16678236

>>16678187
>I'm not into all the STRATEGIC DEPTH and TACTICAL DRAMA that you are

Well that's your problem right there.

40K is supposed to be a table-top turn-based strategy game.

Even if it doesn't seem like it at times.

>> No.16678248

>>16678117
>>16678105
So, what, you just pack up your shit and throw a fit if you start losing?
I bet you're the kind of person that disconnects if you start doing badly in a video game.
"Fuck having fun, if I'm not winning, why should I play?"
It's the mentality of a 5 year old.

>> No.16678268

>>16678232

No, it means that if you wanted to move over a hill, or land in some ruins, you had to do all this math, and measure shit up into the air, and could only move at X angle, or you were forbidden to move into the third dimension.

It was retarded.

Eldar could do pop-ups, actually. A piece of bling let them do it, so not only were the tanks immune to damage, but they could hide after they fired.

Oh, and you could do this with shining spear exarchs at one point.

>> No.16678299

>mfw I have literally heard nobody complain about the Eldar being featured until this thread

This shit was probably made up, or the one time raving of some retard at best

>> No.16678302
File: 1.67 MB, 1224x552, bleeding.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678302

>>16678223
>i can only have fun if i win, and not by playing

>> No.16678304

>>16677431

Honestly I find Eldar players to be of the older 40K generation... so I'm not surprised that they're pissed at all of these... 'modifications'.

>> No.16678307

>>16678248
>"Fuck losing, if I'm not having fun, why should I play?"

Fixed.

>> No.16678318

>>16678268
I think that was the Crystalline Targeting Matrix?
>>16678232
Even mech'd up you can still go down in flames real fast. And all you do is scoot around taking pot shots and trying to not get your shit blown up for 4 turns.

>> No.16678334

>>16678299
I've heard a guard player complaining about "pandering to shit tier fans."

>> No.16678341

>>16678307
pretty much this.

Winning or losing is irrelevant to having fun. You play the game because its fun. You win because you're good at a game you enjoy. You lose because you're not good at a game you enjoy.

simple.

>> No.16678345

>>16678318

Eldar had gear to break ALL of the game's rules. Every single one of them.

"Durr, you charge? Okay. I decide to disengage."
"You penetrate my tank? No, you glance my tank."
"You destroyed my tank!? Roll a second. Oh, you shake my tank. That's better."
"My guy here is gonna cast two psychic powers at you."

>> No.16678379

>>16678345
Well, thats whats supposed to be the "specialty" of the Eldar.

>> No.16678399

Eldar player here. I enjoy utilizing whatever the fuck I please. I don't get buttmad when I lose games. I'm not a giant dick when I win games. You all need to play with nicer people. Also Striking Scorpion/Ranger/WarWalker/Fire Prism/Karandras army ftw

>> No.16678457

>>16678341
>>16678307
So your saying that you only ever lose if you are bad at the game. In a game that operates on dice rolls.

MAN I CANNOT imagine the crazy shit that'd go down if two skilled players played each other, they'd probably explode.

Go back to raging at kill ratios in call of duty.

>> No.16678466

>>16678457
>your
>you're

GODDAMN I hoped I would never do this

>> No.16678473
File: 27 KB, 314x250, scouter 300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678473

>>16678379

You have no idea how utterly unfair and unfun it is to play a shitty game with the posterboys when you've got emperical evidence to prove your chances of victory are 0%.

It's so unfun, and so bad, GW had to get Ward to unsuck the space marines for 5th edition.

Eldar were the stop having fun guys of every edition prior to this, rivaled only by necrons. Necron VS eldar.

>Lances. You're armor 12.
>No, I have this rule that makes your lances useless.
>Well, fuck you, too. I'm their favored child.
>My guys will never break, and come back always. You'll be ground to dust.
>Not so fast, fiend! Starcannons, annihilate the bitchcrons.
>Hah! Wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save.
>Now I unleash this particle whip, which lets me snipe your normally unkillable phoenix lord with the center hole.
>THIS IS MADNESS!
>Madness...?

Pic related.

>> No.16678499

>>16678345
>"My guy here is gonna cast two psychic powers at you."
Oh, come on now. They've always been "the best" psykers, and that isn't even a rare upgrade anymore. Shit, generic GK librarians can cast 3 at you.

>> No.16678502

>>16678341
>You lose because you're not good at a game you enjoy.
Here's where you hit a problem: the armies are simply not equal. So you can be good at the game, and play the side you like, and lose to someone worse because they have a new codex. Personally I'm not ALL ABOUT THE WINNING, but I can see that getting old if it just... keeps... happening.

>> No.16678512

>>16678457
This game is not dictated by dicerolls. Its dictated by math and probability. The dicerolls are just a random number generator to spice it up a little bit so that not every two engagements between two identical units are the same.

The chances of the final outcome being the same though, are almost certain from the beginning.

>> No.16678531

>>16678502
¯\(°_o)/¯
oh I don't know... switch to a new codex?

>> No.16678556

>>16678531
>play the side you like

>> No.16678580

>>16678502

adding onto
>>16678531
everyone has the choice to switch to or use a "good" codex. You *choose* not to do so. Why is irrelevant. You made a conscious choice to use whatever "old" or "weak" codex, and then complain that your choice of codex was a bad one.

Stop being bad and use a good codex.

>> No.16678591

>>16678345

Using the things in your codex in a legal fashion is pretty much the exact opposite of breaking the rules.

That's like:

<Use doom.
<Librarian's free psychic hood manages to cancel
<"Fucking SM players, breaking the psychic test rules."

Also, you're bitching about something that is over and done with. Eldar aren't all that great anymore, mainly due to points cost, but also due to some units not really handling the new game all that well. You're buttmad that Eldar rocked your shit a few years back. Get over it.

>> No.16678606

>>16678591

Well, fuck. Mistyped the greentext.

>> No.16678617

Oldfag here. >>16677973
2nd was redonkalous. Exarchs were only minor heroes, but they could buy displacer fields off the wargear chart. The ONLY way you could hope to beat a beardy Eldar list was with a list SPECIFICALLY designed to beat Eldar, which meant Noise Marines with a bunch of Demons backup.

Still, it was much better than all this crap you kids have to deal with today, cuz only a total dickface would play the ridiculous Eldar cheese.

>> No.16678630

>>16678580
>Stop being bad and use a good codex.
Christ you are an insufferable shit.

>> No.16678638

>>16678499

Back in 3rd, there was a RULE THAT SAID YOU COULD NEVER CAST MORE THAN ONE POWER A TURN.

Eldar broke this with 'stones.'

Your local old guy is gonna stroke his chin, and tell you how he used to tell the eldar they had 'stones to break the rules.'

5th edition isn't 3rd or 4th. Armies are balanced now.

Back then, it was like wawrhammer fantasy, only worse.

>> No.16678667

>>16678580
Again...
>play the side you like

>> No.16678676

>>16678630
dunno man. Its just like a fighting game. You purposely choose a shit-tier character in a game you know you'll be facing a top-tier character. When you lose, you complain about cheese, and your character being bad.

Players like that are usually what are called "scrubs."

>> No.16678678
File: 121 KB, 233x226, surge face.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678678

>>16678591

>complaining obvious complain thread complains on old, long-gone rules.
>implying this wasn't the intention of it.
>implying one isn't allowed to talk about the bullshit that is oldhammer.
>implying eldar aren't deserving of gimped copy-paste shitdexes for another 2 editions, at the very least.

>> No.16678681
File: 542 KB, 1232x1182, FoW Variant Lists.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678681

>>16678580
>Implying that you should need to switch armies to remain competitive in a game.

This is why good wargames release army lists for several factions in the same book. So that no one faction is able to gain a significant advantage over any other.

>> No.16678687

>>16678667
>make a conscious decision to lose before you even start the game.

WHY?

>> No.16678703

>>16678676
Choosing a dude in a fighting game isn't any kind of investment. Buying and painting shit definitely is.

>> No.16678714

>>16678638
You don't know very much about game design, do you?

You create general rules, on which you can lay exceptions (be it by army like in 40k, or by race like in D&D, etc).

>> No.16678723

>>16678630
most mehreen players are.

>> No.16678729

>>16678681
/agreed

40k. proving to everyone else how not to make a good game.

>> No.16678734

>>16678703
You get monetary returns from your money spent on your models..? This is new. Please teach me how you do this?

Or are you one of those pro painter types?

That said, if you want to "recover" your sunk cost into whatever army you have. Just sell it. Lots of outlets online now adays.

>> No.16678749

>>16678734
Not everyone wants to play an army of giant gay dudes in brightly colored armor.

What's the current fan opinion on their height now? 35' tall with 13 hearts and 27 sphincters?

>> No.16678790

>>16678749
Then not everyone wants to win. Everyone makes that conscious decision.

>> No.16678807

>>16678734
I was being cavalier with the use of 'investment'. I really meant 'spending time/money'.

>> No.16678809

>>16678723
Which is amusing since I, the person you are responding to, am a space marines player.

>>16678676
I don't complain about cheese, because I play to have fun. I do complain about shitty players that bitch and whine about losing and bitch at anyone not playing the newest codex however, because they and you are annoying.

>> No.16678813

>>16678714

Good design is not creating armies that completely ignore all the rules, in favor of their own.

>> No.16678820

>>16678790
You should be able to win with any army in the game.

At least that's true in games where the rules aren't designed to sell whatever the newest army is.

>> No.16678850

>>16678820
While I agree with "you should have an equal chance of winning/drawing/losing with any army, against any army, in the game," this only happens in a perfectly balanced game.

Unfortunately most games are not perfectly balanced. And in games like 40k, I'm not so sure the creators want to make the game perfectly balanced. (Afterall, they won't be able to sell new editions.)

>> No.16678877

>>16678820

All games you play have shitty armies. It's a fact of life.
These companies are tiny, and don't have millions of people employed, with thousands of playtesters. It costs money, takes time, and is often a risk to make armies. Look at 40k tyranids. Complete shit, so Gw doesn't make new stuff for them right now.

It doesn't excuse it, but it doesn't have to. All that's needed is you realize there's reality, where not everybody's an equal, and fantasy, where everybody's a winner.

>> No.16678881

>>16678850
>... And in games like 40k, I'm not so sure the creators want to make a game that's even remotely balanced.

FTFY

>> No.16678905

>>16677473
Oh, that's pretty cool. I like the Eldar, who is bitching about them? Those people probably aren't Eldarfags.

>> No.16678906

>Just got a Eldar army
>Mainly like them because they're fun to make
>Don't even have a codex yet
>ohgodwhathaveIdone
How do I not be a dick, /tg/?

>> No.16678910
File: 27 KB, 420x500, rfcry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678910

>>16678877

>mfw i just started playing 40k and picked up tyranids

>> No.16678922

>>16678877
Actually, no. Not all games have 'shitty' armies. Just GW ones.

Many game systems do have somewhat 'underpowered' factions or whatever... but quite a few have done a good job of balancing the game so that even these 'less than adequate' armies aren't anywhere near as far behind as 40k leaves it's 'inferiors'. Examples being Malifaux, or Flames of War. Yeah... Italians are a bit harder and more unpredictable than other forces... But you get a shit-tonne of them, and not even your opponent knows which of your infantry formations will be 'suck-tastic' or 'fuck-awesome'.

>> No.16678925

>>16678850
Bullshit, with a few exceptions, Malifaux is a pretty well-balanced game.

>Oh no, the Dreamer brought his entire army into melee range.
>I'm running Viks.
>Whatever shall I do?
>Oh, right Lolwind.

>> No.16678931

The Eldar should just give up and try to bring back the 80s.
Eldrad and Yriel singing the Final Countdown.

>> No.16678934

>>16678906
By not being a dick. If you win over and over again take handicaps, use suboptimal lists you make if necessary or fun, make up interesting scenarios, be gracious in victory and enjoy defeat. The same sort of things that differentiate a good player from a terrible one no matter the army.

>> No.16678935

>>16678910
Just wait until you've been playing for a decade, and watched your favorite army be endlessly made less enjoyable or 'inferior', with possibly 1 update every 7 to 12 years.

>> No.16678939

>>16678906
Don't worry about it, dude. Eldar in 5th edition aren't even that bad.

Hell, I'd say Guard and maybe Space Wolves are the only books where it's easy to make a really good list.

>> No.16678950

>>16678877
Except a good company, upon realizing that a faction was ridiculously weak, would focus on making that faction better instead of pumping out SPESS MURHEEN chapter codex #189.

>> No.16678953

>>16678939
And by bad I mean good. Fuck my brain.

>> No.16678963

>>16678950
So...did you completely miss 3rd/4th edition?

>> No.16678965
File: 63 KB, 400x395, WYR4026.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16678965

>>16678925
>Oh no, the dreamer dropped 3 teddies on me
... what? That's all, I don't know how it'd turn out

>> No.16678966

>>16678906
How to not be a dick:
-Don't play space marines.
-Don't be a jackass by constantly refering to other armies as 'spess mehreens', 'fookin xenos', 'mon-keigh', 'lunch', whatever...
-Shower
-Don't pretend your opinion is the finite answer to anything. Especially involving armies you don't play (i.e. saying Ork shooting is worthless)
-Don't play 40k.

>> No.16678972

>>16678939
Meh... Eldar in 5'th edition have one tournament-viable list archetype.

Mech Eldar. And its been done to death.

5'th edition Eldar is pretty terrible atm.

>> No.16678974

>>16678966
>Don't play Space Marines
So why exactly is this such a terrible thing.

>> No.16678976

>>16678965
Teddies are big, expensive, point-sinks. My LaCroix eat them for breakfast.

>> No.16678998

>>16678974
It's not that playing Space Marines makes you an asshole it's that assholes play Space Marines.

If you feel the urge to roll 3+ saves, please quit the hobby.

>> No.16679010

>>16678974
It leads to self-righteous biggotry, and extreme 'self-entitlement' issues. Most space marine players tend to justify to themselves that all the extra codices, and massive wargear/unit lists in their codices, are all because 'they sell better than everyone else'. All while never minding the fact that GW has literally been cramming them down the throats of every potential new hobbyist since 2nd edition, and has hyped the fuck out of them.

Bottom line, space marine players are dicks. Even my friends who play space marines, are colossal dicks the majority of the time. It takes a dick, to like an army of dicks.

>> No.16679015

>>16678934
>If you win over and over again
>Eldar
Is this this 'irony' thing I've heard so much about?
>>16678906
There's little chance of you being a dick, but if your opponents play with competitive armies there's a possibility of being butthurt. Just remember: (1) it's only a game, (2) these things come in cycles and at some point you'll get a shiny new codex that might actually be good, (3) you are a noble and doomed race, and if you achieve nothing else you will show them how an Eldar dies.

>> No.16679023

>>16678998
But I enjoy space marine fluff and aesthetics! And painting them!

And the only other thing that looks interesting are Dark Eldar and they seem less interesting painting-wise and more difficult to play for a newcomer.

>> No.16679026

>>16678950

You're acting like GW doesn't have *3* games to support, and have unlimited funds.

Also acting like you've never heard of other games that all have the exact same problem. For the record, everything 5th edition, except tyranids, plays perfectly against each other.

Yay, balance.

>> No.16679048

>>16678965
Teddies are mean, but it's only 3 of them, and I've kept a shit ton of soulstones for just such an event. It takes two swings to bring each Teddy down, with the Viks, I don't even have to flip well, all I need to do is cast Fury, and if they are in melee range, I have enough attacks to kill all 3 of them without using a single whirlwind, which is something I'm very likely to do making 6 attacks.
>I've done so many whirlwinds, I can't feel my everything.

>> No.16679096

>>16679015
I just play with friends, so I don't have to worry about competitiveness.

Another question, is it a bad idea to make a melee-based army?

>> No.16679097

>>16679026
>For the record, everything 5th edition, except tyranids, plays perfectly against each other.
Necrons may very well end up being 'Nids 2.0.' And it's not hard to make 4 goddamned spess mehreen codices "play well against each other". That only left IG, with massive fuck-tonnes of ordnance to compensate, and a DE codex written by someone who actually plays and loves Eldar (wow, go figure).

And ALL of 5th, does not play well with anything prior to it.

>> No.16679100
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16679100

You guys are making me nervous, should I just melt my hive guards now or wat?

>> No.16679108
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16679108

WHAT ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT?

>> No.16679115

>>16679100
What? No, Hive Guard are great. Tyranids just have some…sup-par general rules and FAQ stuff. And Pyrovores. God, Pyrovores are bad.

>> No.16679123

>>16679096
For Eldar, yes.
For Spess Mehreen... no. The games' written in their favor as far as CC is concerned.
For IG, never get into CC unless it's a throw-away 10-man 'speed-bump' you're sacrificing.
Nids only operate with heavy amounts of combat.
Anything else should probably either avoid combat, or be very (VERY) selective of their battles. Especially Orks.

>> No.16679132

>>16679097
>Necrons may very well end up being 'Nids 2.0.'
And so could DE.
And GK.
And BA.
And every other army released after nids.
Not only has nothing pointed to them being mechanically deficient, they have a strong, now proven writer at the helm. You are shitting from the mouth in an attempt to make a point.

>> No.16679139

>>16679123
...
FUCK

>> No.16679150

>>16679123
>Orks
>Avoid melee

What the fuck?

>> No.16679154

>>16679132
>And GK.
>And BA.

5th edition is 'mehreen-hammer' edition. The only way they could have fucked up ANY mehreen codex, is if they pulled a 4th-ed DA on them, cut half the army out of the book, and stripped away 2/3rds of the options.

Yeah.... Marines being Nids 2.0 when the core-rules were specifically written to by biased towards them? not going to happen.

>> No.16679185

>>16679123
Are you SURE that Eldar are bad CQC

>> No.16679199
File: 6 KB, 300x300, daboyz.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16679199

>>16679123Anything else should probably either avoid combat, or be very (VERY) selective of their battles. Especially Orks.

Though they be frail of armor, the blazing crimson speed of the orks leaves the crude, lumbering vehicles of the Imperium. Their specialized warriors are to be used in a delicate dance to devastate the foes of orkdom. It takes a masterful commander to direct this graceful dance of destruction, for a single step is the difference between victory and defeat.

>>playing Eldar
SKATTA SKATTA SKATTA SKATTA
DA FARBOSS SEZ SHOOT FASTA YA GITS
AINT NUFFIN DA DRAGONS KANT KRAK
RAIFBONE'S DA 'ARDEST STUFF IN DA GALAXY
DA GALAXY BELONGS TO DA ELDAR

>> No.16679201

>>16679150
>does not read

I said you should be VERY FUCKING SELECTIVE of your combats. And you should, if you play Orks. Especially with such deficiencies as No Retreat!, shit-poor Ld (Mob rule only helps Boyz an Stormboyz), and overall 'above average' but 'not-quite top-tier' combat ability.

Orks are about versatility now. This is why Shootas > Slugga/Choppa. They can pick their fights, and deal with the opposition on the terms best for them (shoot combat powerhouses, melee the shooting powerhouses).

Orks are not a 'combat-focused army' with the current codex and core rules. Only fuck-tard newbs trying to spam AoBR, and non-Ork players think that.

>> No.16679202

>>16679123
>For Spess Mehreen... no. The games' written in their favor as far as CC is concerned
Here is someone that doesn't play marines.
Vanilla SM: you do NOT DO ASSAULT WITH THEM. NO. THAT IS BAD. Too expensive for what is still a single wound, not power weapon wielding unit that costs 15 points a pop. Only assault terminators with storm shields is a strong melee option, and it is incredibly expensive.
Blood Angels: This is the melee marine army. Cheap assault units with strong rules to support it. If you want assault, you go here.
Space Wolves: they CAN do assault, but they actually aren't that good at it. They can do blobs of wolf scouts, but they are poor at it.
Grey Knights: Same problem as vanilla SM, very expensive units that will cost you more per each one lost than they can kill. They are a shooty army, but have a few strong dedicated assault units in the form of paladins and purifiers.
CSM: Again, vanilla SM problem of being too expensive to be used for assault with good faith.

>> No.16679248

>>16679015
>(3) you are a noble and doomed race, and if you achieve nothing else you will show them how an Eldar dies.
This is how I Wraithlist.

>> No.16679253

>>16679154
>core rules biased to marines
Explain this to me, because I hear it all the time, but the only examples I actually see can apply to any small scale force with high value units such as Eldar, Necrons, Tau.

>> No.16679335

>>16679253
First off, look at how combat resolution is figured. It's a simple matter of "Who killed more of who". Before we analyze that further, I invite you to look back at the previous 2 editions of 40k (3rd and 4th). In these edition, whoever killed more simply invoked a morale check on the other side. Similar, right? Not really... Modifiers were imposed to the loosers Morale check based upon whether they were outnumbered. This meant killing 1 more terminator than the amount of models you lose, but outnumbering the remaining dude by 4:1, meant a difference.

Now, combat is purely focused around "I kill more, the amount of more dudes I kill = ld modifier". So who takes the least amount of damage from a typical round of combat? Marines. Who typically had to worry the most about the previous 'outnumber' modifers? Marines. And with the advent of 'No Retreat!', guess which armies got fucked over the most by that? Not marines, that's for sure... especially since No Retreat! inflicts straight 'wounds' to the enemy (guess who's got the best saving throws).

>> No.16679361

>>16679253
I'm not sure I'd call the units the Tau have "valuable" they don't even cost that many points, which is like half the problem, the other half is that they don't come in squads big enough, the last half is that they have a shitty ballistic skill, and the final half is their lack of unit selection.

Worthwhile unit choices:
1HQ
1Elite
2Troops
1Fast attack
2Heavy support.

Yes, I know that I said "half" four times, but let's be fair, the Tau Empire is 4 kinds of shit.

>> No.16679390

>>16679335
-cont.-
Now lets look at vehicles. 'CC attacks hit rear-armor'. For EVERYONE ELSE, this meant suddenly that CC raped their vehicles. Marines on the other hand, have their old stand-in Landraider that WAS SHIT in 3rd and 4th. With increased vehicle survivability, and a 'I don't need to worry about rear armor', the Land Raider has (once again) become a staple of marine armies, and requires no skill to use. Drive forward, disgorge combat powerhouse unit. Hell, you can even turn the thing around and drive it in reverse for all you want... doesn't affect it's survivability at all. Every other army? AV 10 or MAYBE 11 is the most you can hope for on your ass-end of your tanks. Necrons however, were 'not-quite marines, but still marines' and so had their flying Land-Raider Appliance store.

But the big thing, was that the only weaponry that wasn't too affected by the 'revamped' damage charts, was AP 1 weaponry. Guess which armies have the widest supply of AP1? Imperium, generally speaking. With Meltas available to every unit. Chaos and Eldar also come in 2nd place here, but one of those is really just 'Bad Guy Marines'.

>> No.16679436

>>16679335
And again, this applies to any force that has small, elite assault units that could conceivably be against mobs up to 7 times their number.
Maybe you don't remember when supposedly elite assault units weren't worth the effort to spit on because weight of numbers would ALWAYS win (such as SM asstermies, DE wyches, Eldar striking scorpions) to the point where they would rarely be fielded at all.
Now, powerful assault units are not fucked over out of the gate due to low numbers. It's an inelegant rule, to be sure, but saying it favors marines when by mathhammer any elite assault unit will benefit from the rule unless it's a total rout is sippin bitterness flavored haterade.

>> No.16679456

>>16678223
>Playing multiplayer competitive game
>doesn't enjoy being beaten.

You have to go into competitive games with a mind set that losing half your games is average.

if you can't handle losing then go back to PC games where you can play against bots.

>> No.16679465

>>16679335
>>16679390
*STILL -cont.-*
So with Combat Resolution in their favor, and them coming out of the vehicle changes smelling like roses... lets look at the actual hard-line Core rules (not talking codex differences).

The ENTIRE morale section of the Core book can pretty much be thrown away if your a marine player. Aside from needing to know how a morale/leadership check works, how to roll them, and when... nothing else really matters. Falling back? Auto-regroup provided nobody escorts you (which anyone is subject to). No roll needed. Below 50% casualties? Doesn't apply to you at all. Failed to break from combat against faster infantry? No problem... your base is covered here with a No-Retreat only forcing a few armor saves. The entire prospect of retreating is turned into 'babbies first tactical game', by removing much of the threat and problem of a unit breaking from combat.

Consider this for a moment... regrouping when below 50% casualty mark has been a staple rule for 40k since 3rd/4th. Fantasy changed their 'below X%, can't regroup' several editions ago, and made it 'Below 25%' as the hard-line number. 40k has kept it's 50% for over a decade now, when it too should have followed suit. But they didn't change it, because guess which army doesn't care? Bingo. Oh, Tau can ignore it... for an upgrade-cost. But anyone else? Fucked, unless you've got Fearless... in which case you're double-fucked if your non-cover save(s) are 5+ or worse.

>> No.16679498

>>16679390
>the Land Raider has (once again) become a staple of marine armies, and requires no skill to use
Yes, a large, slow, glorified baby carriage that doesn't know if it wants to be a long range anti-tank unit, a close range anti tank unit, or a transport that costs 220+ points, is a staple.
>eldar are bad guy marines
>ignoring that Tau also have AP1 weaponry as a staple
I hope you are copypasting this from somewhere. Whoever wrote this does not play marines. In fact, I wonder what army they play to begin with.

>> No.16679513

>>16679248
That means you're showing them how an Eldar dies A SECOND TIME.

That's pretty cool.

>> No.16679521

>>16679465
>complaining about ATSKNF when it's the only thing that keeps marine troops who are usually combat squadded from being immediately overran by assault armies

>> No.16679526

>>16679436
>but saying it favors marines when by mathhammer any elite assault unit will benefit from the rule unless it's a total rout is sippin bitterness flavored haterade.
The "Elite" Assault units in the game ARE all space marines of some varying kind. There literally is no others. Oh sure... you could argue 'Nid Warriors'... until a Powerfist comes along and insta-gibs them for 3 Combat Resolution points a pop. And Nobs, while mean, also run into the same issue of having to avoid anything that can potentially inta-kill them. Effectively, they're a low-grade "Elite Assault" unit that (thanks to 5th) is more of a 'troop-bully' than a 'heavy hitter'.

Despite all that... having played through the previous 2 editions of 40k... the ONLY time the 'elite assault' units had any issues, were in 3rd. And even then, TH/SS was still an effective (and preferred) method of dealing with the almighty Wraithlord during those dark days. But the true setback to 'Elite Assault Units' was never through combat resolution or outnumbering... it was through the pure inadequacy of transports being 'death-traps' (mostly during 4th).

That all said, "useless assault termies" were still used, and quite often at that. They just weren't the "no-brainer" they are now.

>> No.16679546

>>16679185
>Are you SURE that Eldar are bad CQC
In the end, you play what you want to play. If your opponents aren't playing too competitively, then it can probably be done.

>> No.16679562

>>16679521
Good sir, you misunderstand. ATSKNF can stay for all I care. The thing that makes it fucked up is that it's an auto-regroup (no roll), and that ATSKNF is literally THE SINGLE MAJOR REASON why 40k has yet to adopt the 25% casualty mark for regrouping.

ATSKNF can stay... but you can't ignore the fact that the antiquated morale section of the rulebook has not been improved for everyone, due to the fact that it currently benefits marines the most.

>> No.16679567

So... if I was looking to get into 40k with Eldar, what's the wackiest effective list I could build?

>> No.16679576

>>16679526
On the other hand, I don't, as a general codex space marine player, have any decent assault options at all other than assault marines, which are a mixed bag at best.

Oh, and Vanguard Veterans, but nah.

>> No.16679593

>>16679576
And assault terminators but they are incredibly costly.

>> No.16679594

>>16679567
>>16679567
Mech eldar is the only effective eldar list archetype 5th ed. Lots of variations, but the concept is the same.

>> No.16679602

>>16679567

120 guardians, 3 wraithlords, an Avatar

>> No.16679607

>>16679593
And totally worth it. Particularly the part with the master crafted thunder hammers. And the 3+ invul.

>> No.16679612

>>16679562
The problem lies with the fact that MOST armies have a leadership of 8.
If leadership started at 6 and scaled up, it wouldn't be so noticeable.

>> No.16679614

people in this thread thinking the games over from simple army selection.

>not even list selection
>not even who you're playing

God you're all dumb. Tau player here, i fight 5th ed codices all the time and come out on top (not all the time since i'm not some strategy god)

The biggest factor in whether you'll win or lose is whether you're playing some one who knows what they're doing or not. If you're playing an idiot with guard you'll have a better chance than a genius with Tau.

god damn you retards are fucked.

Also just because a list is fluffy or themed does not make it bad, and there isn't any "one" list. (for those fucks who try to say that any codex has "one" list. its retarded)

>> No.16679634

>>16679607
Yea, love that unit that costs 600+ points.
When are you going to use it? In 2k games where the other guy can field something that is worth that kind of killing power.

>> No.16679643

>>16679602
You'll probably want some spirit seers to keep those wraithlords from BSoD'ing on you too.

>> No.16679661

Continuing on... (and there's a lot more too), but the final bit I'll touch upon is the Universal Special Rules.

Look at the USRs, and look over every codex in the game. Marines (in general) have access to the widest array of beneficial USRs, while ALSO having 'unique rules' for the sole benefit of having a USR without the penalties (note, IG also have this as well). The detrimental USRs are generally not found too often in the marine codices, and if so, will have a 'catch' that makes them occur less often (see 'Rage' and the BA chapter rules). Other armies however, often have the detrimental USRs, or will have specifically fucked up detrimental non-USRs that seem to exist for no other purpose than to make that unit of no value (i.e. Tank-Bustas, or the Pyrovore). In many cases, you have units that aren't even compensated points-wise for having such nonsensical penalties tacked on.

Now, there are exceptions. Blood Claws are notoriously 'questionable', and could easily fill the slot of a unit with non-USR penalty that seems to only guide you taking the 'correct' troop choice instead. But the number of instances where such units show up in a marine codex, is quite a bit less than in other cases.

>> No.16679667

>>16679154

No, it's 'cheap transport good troops and objectives'-edition.

Which means all the old books are FUCKING SHIT, because they have expensive transports, shitty and expensive troops, and the closest thing to objectives they were ever designed around were the loot counters of old.

This isn't Ward's fault. Would you rather have Cruddacehammer? More AlessioGavhammer? Maybe some Jervishammer, because dark angels are sooooooooo fun to play?

Fuck you.
Ward saved your shitty game.

>> No.16679673

>>16679593
40pts per model for a 2+/3++ Str 8 ignore saves and fucks over you initiatve?

Yeah... really expensive...

>> No.16679683

>>16679498
Yes, but the Tau can't have AP 1 guns in every goddamn squad, unlike the Space Marines.

>> No.16679684

>>16679661
The issue of the USRs is more a symptom of when the codices were made, versus scale of power.
The sole exception is Nids, and DE do not have such drawbacks, and I'll wager that Crons won't either.

>> No.16679689

>>16679673
When they need at least 240pts of transport to be useful? Yeah, 500pts is expensive.

>> No.16679695

>>16679614
>Also just because a list is fluffy or themed does not make it bad
Orly? Try an all-bike themed Ork army sometime...

It steamrolls half the armies in the game, and gets steamrolled by the other half (mostly 5th ed codices). There isn't even a middle ground.

>> No.16679709

>>16679526

You're derping like a motherfucker, and I demand you drag your aspie ass out of my obvious troll thread, that has led to serious discussions.

>> No.16679720

>>16679695
and?

is it fun to you?
yes
no

if yes then play it.
if no than don't jesus

What you want a 100% win rate?

>> No.16679734

>>16679673
Cost more than 40 points guy.
Also, whatever IC you attach to them (because people always do such as a libby or captain), the landraider to get them to the high value target (because you don't slog them and using them against troops is stupid).
Hammernators are the one key SMs have to stop other dedicated high value units, and that is ALL it can do. You can shoot with them, taking them against mobs will have you lose them pointlessly at worst and wastes their power at best.

>> No.16679741

>>16679667
>Maybe some Jervishammer, because dark angels are sooooooooo fun to play?
If you don't take the game too seriously, it isn't bad. My Greenwing did pretty well in a casual setting. Just really bland. Also, seriously, Scouts competing against terminators, dreads, and company vets? What the hell?

>> No.16679755

>>16679498
1) Land Raiders are glorified transports, first and foremost. Only fucking retards whine and complain about their firepower, because the entire reason you field one is to make sure -CC powerhouse A- gets into combat relatively unscratched.
2) Pull your head out of your ass. Between Chaos and Eldar, which do you really think is the 'bad-guy marines'?
3) Maximum 9 Railguns per Tau Army, provided they spent the majority of their points on Broadsides. You typically will not see more than 4 to 6 of them... give or take. However, when was the last time you saw a marine army with less than 6 AP1 weapons? If you said 4th edition, then you win a cookie!

>> No.16679757

>>16679683
Yes, in a full squad that costs 200+ points for a 6 to 18 inch gun.
It is NOT cheap at all, not on par with IG vets.

>> No.16679768

>>16679734
No they don't. Unless you're running BA or SW, 3++ terminators are 40pts for vanilla marines. GW just realized how much of a fucking blunder that was on their part (guess who wrote that codex), and adjusted them properly in the later 'dexes.

>> No.16679773

>>16679720
Not that guy, I play Tau. I'd like something more than a 0% win rate. The only people I win against are the ones who have never played Tau before and don't think to ask me "How should I kill you?". Because I'm at the point that I don't give a fuck, and am more than happy to tell them that "If you kill the broadsides, I have lost. Fire massed Lascannons at them, massed missile launchers at the battlesuits, and that's it for me. The other option is to catch me in hand to hand, though I won't make it easy for you."

>> No.16679777

>>16679567
Jetbikes errywhere! See the youtube channel 'way of saim-hann' for a dude who does that, backed up with Fire Prisms. Shit looks fun.

>> No.16679782

>>16679567

Bike list. Competitive comes in 2 forms. One of which is bike lists. 2x Farseer on Jetbike + Council. Guardian Jet Bikes. Etc.

>>16679546

Depends on how you look at it. With melee eldar there are a few options of units:

Defend/Shimmershield + Power Weapon Dire Avengers.
>don't expect to kill anything but might last longer in combat + assault weapons can help cut down enemy numbers/bog them down.

Scorpions
>should be in squads of 6 to 10 (more is better)
>exarch is arguably best with Scorpion Claw or whatever they call it
>either exarch power is fine

Banshees
>squads of 8 to 10 are good
>require doom pretty much to be effective
>exarch is best with executioner
>arguably better to play defensively
By that I mean: get into Cover, go to the ground for better save + acrobatics + banshee masks = same number of attacks as if charged, likely hits first. Doom or Fortune augments killyness/ability to shrug off shit.

Harlequins = overpriced
>Best in squads of 8ish in my opinion/experience
>always take kiss
>I recommend shadowseer
>deathjester is highly unadvisable
>troupe leader is unneeded/as are fusion pistols

>> No.16679784

>>16679757
IG Vets are an exception, not the standard.

>> No.16679786

>>16678877

Go play Warmahordes some time. PP isn't even a fifth the size of GW and that game is literal magnitudes more balanced than either of the GW flagships. Are some casters a little better? Sure, there are top-teir lists, but the gap is small, and pretty easily surmountable with skill, and EVERY faction has at least one competitive list for tournament play.

And they have more units in each faction, by a ridiculous degree.

And more factions, if you don't count Space Marine chapters as their own faction.

And they have no problem selling new editions.

>> No.16679787

>>16679757
That's not the point I was making, you at least get the fucking option, so you don't get the right to bitch about railguns.

>> No.16679798

We all know David Bowie is actually Tzeentch.

>> No.16679811

>>16679755
The issue is that with LRs, you are PAYING FOR THE ANTI TANK. The reason they are expensive is because you pay premium fee for it's versatility, and 40k has NEVER rewarded versatility, it's why tac marines are a overall poor troop choice.
You called Eldar bad guy marines. Your words, not mine.
Lets count the armies that lack AP1 ability:
Orks
Necrons
Daemons
A tau player WILL take railguns, as many as they can fit.
IG = meltavets.
Eldar = fire dragoons.
SM get at max, 2 per squad and some combi-meltas.
Deldar = lances.

>> No.16679819

>BLAUGGHABLAUUGH 5TH EDITION THE BROKENS

Lol, I'll stay in my second edition chrono-bunker. Have fun out there in your current edition, I can't hear you over the sound of my simultaneously tactically and narratively engaging games played against people I like.

>> No.16679838

>>16679720
I DID build it. 2000pts of it. And yeah... it was fun during the initial year of 5th ed's release. Then the meta shifted, transport-spam became the thing to do, and the most recent 3 space marine codices were released. And guess what? It's no longer fun to play with.

I built it because it was going to be a challenge for me to play. It looked cool. And I like theme lists. But now it either flails helplessly and gets massacred, or it steamrolls the poor bastards that are more outdated than it.

100% win rate? Fuck... I'd be happy with a 30 to 40% win rate these days.

>> No.16679840
File: 26 KB, 510x546, nurgle cup.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16679840

>>16679661

Because the others aren't updated, and most are from a time when there WERE NO USR's, or during the gloriously shitty days of Less is more, when they decided plague marine uniqueness came from a UNIVERSAL RULE.

>> No.16679844

>>16679811
>Chaos and Eldar also come in 2nd place here, but one of those is really just 'Bad Guy Marines'.
>You called Eldar bad guy marines.
Not even that anon, just... disappointed.

>> No.16679859

>>16679840
Even the non-marine codices from 5th use less USRs than the 5th ed marine codices.

Hell, IG makes up it's own half the time.

>> No.16679866

>>16679782

Storm Guardians benefit like this:
>large ass squads
>double melta or double flamer (I recommend flamer - see next arrow for reason)
>escort by Avatar - negates need for embolden/bolsters ld
>take warlock with enhance or destructor and a singing spear for anti-tank/benefits

btw 2ed Avatar model. Get one. Love it. Totally great for cover shenanigans,

>> No.16679883

>>16677973
>We're in 5th edition. Science.
>Crystal targeting matrix was cheese, you got me, but it's gone.
>Fielding 9 war walkers is as fun as rubbing balls on a cheese grater.
>This is the only viable list bar that elleged Saim-Hann Deep strikes shit.
>Calling people newfags, b is that way ---->

After playing Eldar in 2nd edition (where they were shit hot nasty) it's a joke to call them OP now... if you can't beat Eldar, stop playing Tau.

>> No.16679884
File: 55 KB, 468x427, bowiedm1306_468x4271.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16679884

>>16679798
David Bowie has never been anything other than an Eldar pirate.

>> No.16679886

>>16679811
>and 40k has NEVER rewarded versatility

Actually... you are *ALMOST* correct.

It did. In 5th. With Shoota boyz.

>> No.16679911

>>16678068
>Space Marines
>Space Wolves
>Black Templars
>Blood Angels
>Chaos
>Sisters of Battle
>Eldar
>Imperial Guard
>Orks
>Necrons
>Tau
>Tyranids

FTFY. You did say 'fans'.

>> No.16679918

>>16679886
Thats because shoota boyz are so damn cheap, they can get away with it.

>> No.16679987

>>16679811
>and 40k has NEVER rewarded versatility
Actually, there was a time when special and heavy weapons could target separately, making versatile squads effective. Especially IG, whose heavy weapons could detach from their squads so as not to slow them down.

>> No.16680009

>>guys with assault guns that can assault well and have an assault leader
>>comparing them to tac squads or something

Ork shoota boyz can do EVERYTHING THEY WERE MEANT TO DO IN ONE TURN

tac squads have to CHOOSE BETWEEN moving or firing a heavy weapon, or rapidfiring or assaulting

>> No.16680027

>>16680009
>Implying players weren't meant to have to make choices

>> No.16680097

>>16680009

And that good sir, is why they have the Combat Squad/Razorback options.

>> No.16680117

>>16679844
>Chaos and Eldar
>Chaos
like...Chaos Marines. I think your reading comprehension failed you for just a sec there anon

>> No.16680136

>>16679859

So you're saying we shouldn't use universal special rules, and they should be reserved for the holiest of the holiest, such as special characters that your gaming group would totally not ban, and 0-1 elites that your gaming group would totally not call cheese?

No, I don't want to play Alessiohammer. I'm sorry, but I don't.

If you're horny for books with no rules, play the shitdexes from 4th edition. I'll be enjoying these non-chaos marines while you do, and partaking in a slice of grey knight cake.

>> No.16680142

>>16680009
tac squads can combat squad if need be.

there's your versatility.

ITT: people want their armies to do everything perfectly and kick every others armies ass in the name of "balance"

Warhammer has always been primarily about models rather than gaming. The gaming is part of it, but its much more fun to run narrative games than constantly trying to do tournament style games.

I never got peoples obsession with competing. I mean tournaments are fun, but playing random games as if they're tournament games is meh, much more fun to make up some house rules for a scenario.

>> No.16680157

>>16679859

Yes, Cruddace and Kelly are shitty writers, so won't use the USR's, because 'special snowflake.'

Which only proves that Ward is better, since he's at least consistent.

So if Cruddace does the next eldar dex, and it's really shitty, will you then claim - like what tyranids did at first - that 'at least it's not Ward?'

Because tyranids are crying that it's not Ward right now, guy. They're crying like little girls getting deflowered. It's so pathetic.

>> No.16680162

>>16680142

NO BRO

THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID BRO

>> No.16680167

>>16680117
You are of course right. Nobody could possibly conceive that the word 'Chaos', used to refer to a 40k faction, followed by a reference to 'Bad guy Marines', could refer to Chaos Marines. The only logical conclusion is that 'bad guy Marines' must mean Eldar.

>> No.16680214
File: 36 KB, 278x386, TMWL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16680214

Dealing with 5th ed uber list assholes is easy imo.
Step 1: find out what their list is by watching them play others, and whilest doing that look at their strategeys
step 2: write counter list (DE are great for this shit but other codexes can too discounting tau amd current 'crons)
Step 3: Play

>> No.16680269

>>16680214
>Skipping intermediate step: Buy, build, and paint a number of toy soldiers and tanks ranging from dozens to hundreds.
Nah, fuck keeping up with the competition after all.

>> No.16680273

>>16679667


Ding ding ding! That's also the reason why Tyranids are bad, since Venom/Heavy Venom Cannons are shit and the only resillent Troop choices are Tervigons as troops (Fearless is super bad on horde units), so the only real choice is 3 x 3 Hive Guard, 2 Tervigons and the Termagant squads to make them troops, fill everything else. Usually with Harpies and Tyrannonfexes to be able to deal with mech armies.

Note, that codex was designed to sell Hive Guard (now on Finecast!), Tervigon and the bait-and-switch Trygon kits. But since playing Hive Guard spam + Tervigons is just not fun, sales dropped, so Tyranids got shelved and DE got pushed.

I don't play Nids, but I saw the local Tyranid player eBay his shit and buy a Cryx army when the damn FAQ dropped.

Now on Eldar. Now, their only viable build is Mechdar, with 3 Fire Dragons on Elites, and since massed S6 is lolbad, their biggest anti-tank is....tank shock. Really, fast tank shock is at least moderately threathening.

>> No.16680284

>>16680214
Tailoring list is faggotry.

however if facing a massive faggot then its not the worst idea. Sometimes faggots just have to be put into place

also
>implying tau can't tailor their list
Tau do fine, they might not be able to bring as many tricks to the table but they can still dish out a fuck ton of pain.

>> No.16680384
File: 55 KB, 500x336, russianbear.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16680384

>>16680284
Explain why this is faggotry anyone who has a problem with this, when the store is full of comp1 tourneyfag assholes this is my only option if i want to shut them the fuck up as opposed to bending over and taking it up the ass. please note i only take a regualar balenced fun list against anyone who doesn't torney fag. too much effort to carry around 5000pts for regualr bro's.

>> No.16680418

>>16680384
You're compromising your integrity because someone you *know* is an idiot pissed you off.

>> No.16680425

>>16678910

I guess i'll stick with nids just so the other dudes can play something other than SM vs. SM.

also, deathleapers look siiiickckkkk

>> No.16680446

>>16680418
Integrity?Compromising? I'm somewhat confused as to why this is so, I come from the guildwars mindset where if your party isnt "tailored" to fight the npc you are 400% fucked. why is this such a problem here?

>> No.16680451

>>16680425

You can't really sell them at this point, so might as well.

"I dun get it!" Because the codex is so shitty, people won't buy necrons. It's like dwarves in fantasy, but those can't be sold because of bland playstyle.

>> No.16680463

>>16680451

*Necrons should be 'tyranids.' My love for them has replaced my hatred for tyranids.

>> No.16680482

>>16680384
The question becomes where do you draw the line. where is tourny fagging and where is just a strong well made list. A tourny comp1 list played by a bro can be fun times to play against. while a shit tier list played by a faggot can be insufferable.

Tailoring should be reserved for when it is absolutely most dire. Lest you become to be known as that faggot who tailors list just to win games.

Personally i try to make good list that still have new tricks or something i don't see net listed to often that i can reason to be a good idea. (generally i if i can figure out a specific role for it, then i'm alright with taking it)

>> No.16680526

>>16680451

Now that I think about it, I have been buying most of my units dirt cheap online from players that are "trimming" massive amounts of tyranids rofl.

>> No.16680538

>>16678473
Marines being unable to win in 3rd? Really? Someone was doing it wrong. Played both Orks and Marines through 3rd, and racked up a good win ratio with both. Don't forget that *all* skimmers were bullshit in 3rd, you could bring your own.

Orks had to enjoy being in the no-skimmer club, and had models left over from gorkamorka for half of their vehicles. Oh, and we had no models for half of our range. The marines were posterboys that had all the GW love.

>> No.16680568

>>16680482
I have never met a toruney fag that was also a bro, that said i am limited as to the people i can meet and play what with like 1 flgs where its anything but warmahordes or MTG, (thankfuly the guys there are not torneyfags and are indeed bro teir), the closest gw store gives me 2 choices most of the time, kids or torneyfags who like to beat kids, once or twice a month you might find some ok dudes (and some awsome ones) that just like to play, but the bulk are douches that like to win at all costs.

>> No.16680582

>>16680526
honestly this is probably the best time to get into nids because of the dirt cheapness of it all from people selling their shit.

Nids aren't even all that bad. People over react all the time on the internet. if you're not playing against "those guys" who only live to play tournament list then you should be fine. Generally if you're playing against average players even the shittiest codex can win. (note, a shitty list will still suck, but you don't have to 100% tournyfag a list to make it win)

>> No.16680614

>>16680568
Then by all means DESTROY THEM,

(i'm pretty sure half of this thread is made of faggots like that though... unfortunately. seeing the amount of irrational hate and overblown remarks)

i'm lucky i just have my own group of bros that i play with. And most people at the GW are pretty chill. And the tournfags might even be some of the best in the country but they're generally alright guys and will even give you some pointers afterwards (not saying your army is shit, but rather better ways to use units conjointly.)

>> No.16680635

>>16680614
>overblown remarks

This is /tg/, that is what we do here.

And over exaggerate everything.

>> No.16680649

>>16680538

Your most potent unit was a 5 man tactical squad with a lascannon and a plasmagun. This is fact.

You didn't have sternguard.
Good characters.
Psychic powers worth a damn (smite only).
Transports were deathtraps, that died to glancing hits.
No special characters.
No special rules.
No nothing.

>> No.16680674

>>16680614
Omg a place where torneyfags give constructive criticism instead of telling me not to play my army because its not a wardex. You have my jealosy, I mean fuck thats the least the ones near me could do but nooooo to busy running their cunt lists and complaining when they get 1's ( LITERALY! one actually bitched full hardcore about it, as if he was expecting a 6 to blow my ass out of the air!)

>> No.16680696

>>16680674

I used to do that, but butthurt chaos and demons fags ruined it for everybody. Now I just play, and don't share my secrets.

>> No.16680797

>>16680674
its possibly because its ottawa, though i needed more help when i was younger.

Now i'm the one giving advice out to my bros. and it has been a while since i've been to a GW.

>> No.16680885

>>16680797
Queensland actually (at the ass end of the world) there's a distinct lack of everything here except fuckwits.

>> No.16680897

>>16680885
Nvm didn't read post properly

>> No.16680956

>>16680885
Well no wonder you're in Australia

lol, J/k

I find it kind of funny how similar Australia and Canada can be, and how polar opposite (haha get it) they are at the same time.

>> No.16680992

>>16680956
My thoughts exactly when i visited there Alberta was kinda like queensland but with pine forrest instead of bush.

>> No.16680998

I recently played a game with my World Eaters. All Khorne, no Bullshit. I brought a decently 'ard list because I knew I was playing a tourneyfag.

The guys was bitching when his 4 Deff Rollas didn't destroy my 2 Land Raiders on turn 2. He immobilized and stunned the hell out of both, with a couple weapons destroyed. He was dismayed that he couldn't hop out and charge my troops 2nd turn though.

I really enjoyed killing his Nobz, Boyz, Mekboy, and Ghazghkull with 16 Berzerkers, Abaddon and a Great Daemon.

I don't alway do well against the tourneyfags, but when things go well, it's like an extra serving of justice.

>> No.16681027

>>16680998
See what I mean Crying when the dice don't go their way, as if their formula and plans didn't hinge on random rolls, also brofist for having Abaddon doing something.

>> No.16681054

>>16680998
>All Khorne
>Using the greatest Undivided Champion
wut

>> No.16681060

>>16679154
>>16679253
Fearless is bad, psuedo-fearless marines get is good.

Lose combat? Hope you have good armour saves!

>>16679150
Orks: You can win agianst shooty units by charging them, but a good melee unit you need to outnumber by a redonkulous amount, just to have enough survivors to worry about.

>>16680649
>You didn't have sternguard.
Orks didn't have sternguard.
>Good characters.
I disagree on that one, your normal HQ picks were good.
>Psychic powers worth a damn (smite only).
Orks didn't have psykers at all in their 3e codex.
>Transports were deathtraps, that died to glancing hits.
So were ork tranports. Except ours could be glanced by bolters.
>No special characters
Space marines had SCs. Corteaz, Lysander as a Tac Sarge, etc.
>No special rules.
And They Shall Know No Facts.
>No nothing.
You came from a period of blander codexes, just like we did. You got three updates before we got updated to fourth, right before fith hit. Ours was in theory made for 5th, but really wasn't. We lost a number of fun choices in the change to the new codex. When was the last time Space Marines lost a choice out of their codex? Orks still have the oldest kit going, the gorkamorka skorcha trakk. What's the oldest SM model you can buy?
Counting just vanilla Space Marine codexes, how many have been released since 3rd hit? Space Marine subfactions have had more releases then orks have since 3rd. Are you really so dense as to not think you're the chosen posterboy faction?

>> No.16681138

>>16681060

Tactical marines and assault marines are all stamped 1997.
Some characters/misc. models are from the 80's.


I'm on every cover, and in every codex, yet my army sucks ass. I'm the posterboy that's also the whipping boy.

It took Ward to make my army good.
I don't care how old the old ork dex was, because it worked. It worked so well, it'd still work in 5th, and much better than the current Kelly shitdex.

That's the thing.
Maybe marines get a lot of updates and patches, but little of it's good.

>> No.16681143

>>16681054
People in my area don't like to agree to forge world. Or if they do, it's the few tourney fags who like to go
"Oh you're playing Lord Zhufor, that's cool if I can bring my three Cestus Assault Rams."

I just run Abaddon with the Zhufor model because Kharn kinda sucks in a sea of powerfists.

>> No.16681157

>>16680885
Fellow Queenslander here, hurry up and move to Brisbane.

>>16680998
>Nobs, boys, mekboy and ghazzy
Clearly a tournylist. Doesn't sound like a standard goff theme list.
>4 deffrollas
4 Battlewagons. Goff as fuck.
Guy was following a theme better then you from the sounds of things.

Bitching about bad luck is in poor taste, but you would hope 2d6 Str10 hits would crack at least one of them open.

>> No.16681174

>>16681143

At least they can't tell us we're not allowed to use special characters anymore.

>> No.16681226
File: 322 KB, 500x700, 1265607144221.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
16681226

>Guy was following a theme better then you from the sounds of things.

Abaddon modeled as Zhufor
Daemon Prince of Khorne
Summoned Greater Daemon
4 Chaos Terminators with Icon of Khorne
Possessed Land Raider
8 Berzerkers
8 Berzerkers
8 Summoned Lesser Daemons
Defiler
Possessed Land Raider
5 Havocs with Icon of Khorne (4 Autocannons)

I follow my theme as well as my book allows. We can all agree Chaos is has lots of issues with their book.

>> No.16681233

>>16681174
>having worthwhile special characters.
>tau
pick one

Though i did try and make a farsight list that spammed crisis suits.
19 crisis suits, farsight and 3 broad sides with about 12 firewarriors acting as troops. in 2000 points

each crisis suit with minimum missile pod meant 3 st10 ap1 shots as well as 38 st7 ap4 shots in a turn. a positional relay would ensure that my firewarriors would not arrive from reserve until later (and i'd put a crisis team in reserve to slow the firewarriors arrival)


Now i just need 10 more crisis suits.

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