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15880420 No.15880420 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Hey /tg/ is this a good place to ask about what army i should choose when getting into WH40K?
I've lurked a bit and from what I can tell Grey knights would be the best if I just want to win, I shouldn't go tau until we see the new codex, and something about sisters of battle that I can't remember.
But what about the other races? are they viable if I want a fairly competitive army with a fair amount of floxibility? (I hear Tau only have 1 viable army choice if you play other people, which doesn't sound fun, even though i love their armour)
If this isn't the place to ask, redirect me and i'll delete the thread.

>> No.15880446

No good sir, this is the place to ask.

Imperial Guard do offer quite a degree of flexibility while retaining a competetive edge.

Other races work well too, but to honest, I think you would be better off picking the army that appeals to you the most. Unless you really are gung-ho on winning all the time

>> No.15880465

>>15880446
I won't make a choice until i see the new tau codex because they look like the most fun to paint and I think their suits are pretty balling.
IG would be my second choice, but i'm not sure about painting skin, and also the orders seem very very hit and miss

>> No.15880482

When getting into 40k?

Pick the army that appeals most. There's little point in picking a 'competitive' army as a beginner, because you likely won't be able to make use of it effectively.

So choose the army that will give you the most enjoyment out of modelling, painting and collecting them, which ultimately is the most fun part of the hobby.

When you've played with them for a while, learnt to use a non-optimised army, THEN you can select your minmaxing death machine that ruthlessly crushes all before it.

>> No.15880489

Picking a first army because it's better at winning is stupid. The time you'll take to make it playable, another army will be the "HURR DURR BESTEST EVER".

Pick an army that you love, in aesthetics and playstyle, because you'll glue it, you'll paint it and then you'll play it.

>> No.15880496

>>15880482
But i'd like to be able to have an army where it's appealing and i can collect what i think works best, and then be able to still use parts of my army that i already have.
i don't hear much about eldar or tyranids, how are those armies? I'm guessing eldar are sort of like the tau in close combat but... without the good ranged.

>> No.15880501

>>15880482

Buying a gimp army as your first's the same as throwing money away.

Avoid chaos marines, chaos demons, eldar, dark angels, black templars, tyranids, necrons, and tau.
Sisters are getting a new codex next month, necrons are due before the year's over, guard, space wolves, blood angels, dark eldar, and grey knights are all viable and made for this edition of the game.

>> No.15880516

>>15880496

Tyranids are terrible. The army is still missing close to 50% of all models, too.
Eldar have one build, and are very boring to play. Like tau, but not as powerful.

>> No.15880528

>>15880501
see this guy sees where i'm coming from.
I might go guard then, it'll be expensive because tanks cost a shitload
What armies do you all play? and how do you find them? what do you like/dislike?

>> No.15880531

>>15880501
You don't deserve a hobby if your obsession is power gaming to win.

>> No.15880552

>>15880496
Without taking metagame or design in account, i would say, that for a first army, marines (preferably loyal, since chaos is way outdated in some ways) are best.

Marines are easy to paint, forgiving, cheap, practically all plastics, and have a low model-count. But you WILL face a lot of clone-battle and you WILL branch out after gaining some experience.

Eldar are

>> No.15880554

>>15880531
I will find it more enjoyable if i can actually win some games with an army i spend time and money building up.

>> No.15880568

>>15880552
I once had a marine army and they're just so dull
Otherwise i'd go Grey knights and not even be asking here, because apparently the person ho writes the rules has a hard on for them and ultramarines.

>> No.15880574

>>15880501

I hate players like you. Coming into stores with your new army you bought off ebay, lose because claim your rules are gimped, when in fact you've never practised with them, bitch because whatever the latest codex is better, sell your army and buy whatever it was that won the latest tourny all while bitching about GW prices. Repeat.

Whereas the bloke in the corner has his chaos army he's had since 1993, loses 4 out of 5 games and enjoys every moment because he's playing his army, with models with history, backstories and tales of derring do from years of pleasure.

Power gamers are the cancer killing the hobby.

>> No.15880581

>>15880552
Woops. I derped two post in one there. Disregard the eldar bit.

>> No.15880588

>>15880528

I play everything at one point during 5th, with the exception of demons. You don't need to play them to know how retarded the concept is on the table.

Currently, I mainly do vanilla marines, grey knights, and tau.

>>15880531

Do you know how much this game costs? If you want to blow all your money on shitty demons, go right ahead, but if people ask, I'm gonna tell them, so they don't buy 60 firewarriors.

>> No.15880595

>>15880528
I play Eldar.

I love the ascetics and the options for theme/colour scheme (to be honest, the only limit you'd have for any army would be your imagination).

I often lose (Wraithlist). If I'm playing against a decent player then I will lose, if I'm playing against a useless player then I have a fighting chance. If I get a bad streak of luck with the dice then I'll lose, if I get a great streak of luck with the dice then I might be able to draw.

One day we (Eldar players) will get a new codex and we'll win everything all the time. Until then I'm happy mucking about and doing the modelling side.

>> No.15880646

>>15880574
no you don't understand, i'm not going to sell my army and complain about everything (mainly because the whole game is based off dice rolls which are luck based) I just want an army that wont suck against everyone, I'll have more fun if i have just as good a chance winning a game as i do losing, so that the battle itself it more entertaining because i'm not expecting to lose (or win)
The 3 armies i was looking at are Tau Tyranids and IG, i like all their styles (tau look easier to paint, but IG have some troopers with cool armour, and tyranids are dinosaurs in space so fuck yeah) so really this was a thread to see which one of these armies is best in battles, but i wanted to make the thread broader so people could discuss more stuff.

>> No.15880654

>>15880528
>What armies do you all play? and how do you find them? what do you like/dislike?
I play a foot IG (well, i paint IG, since 3rd Ed, i'm slow as fuck).
Why ? Starship troopers, that's why.

What i like ? It's characterfull and you can do pretty much what you want with it. And alternative ranges.

What i dislike ? Fuckton of models to buy, paint and transport. And people saying it's overpowered and no-brainer (especially when i'm on it since 3rd Ed)

>> No.15880659

>>15880574

I don't play in stores, because then I'd have to put up with whiny, butthurt elitist faggots, who demand I have X layers of color on my dudes, use comp, or whine and bitch a lot on my choice of army.

"Waaaaah, Draigo!"
"Waaaaaah, long fangs!"
"WAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!! LASH CHAOS!"

I have this club, see. If you whine and bitch, you're not allowed to play there, and we have a 13+ age limit.

All so I can avoid your kind.

>> No.15880682

Not OP, I used to play 40k back in school. I never really enjoyed the game, but loved painting and stuff. Is it worth it to get back into 40k just for the painting and stuff?

>> No.15880684

People bitching about older armies. You simply suck at tactics.
I can still play Necrons and get more wins and draws than losses, with my dice not being rigged.
In reality, every army can be competetive and fun to play, it just depends on what you consider fun.

If you like total bloody close combat slaughter, take Blood Angles. If you like flexibility, look at Imperial Guard ad Dark Eldar, who have a lot of room for themed and creative lists. If you are looking for a middle of the road jack of all trades army, go with Space Wolves. They have pretty frightening survivability, fire power, and close combat skills.
If you like trolling, learn how to use Necrons or Eldar, and curbstomp the opposition while laughing.

>> No.15880691

>>15880646

Tau have one build, and it involves all the battlesuits you can afford. It's a bit like a dance, and if you fail even one move, you lose.

Eldar are a bit like that, too, but don't have access to the same firepower as tau. They're dangerously bad at this point.

Imperial guard have A LOT of viable units, but tons of junk, too.
I'd start guard if I were you.

>> No.15880711

>>15880682

Yes.
The models are very nice to look at now, but expensive.

You could do far worse if you're going for straight painting and collecting.

>> No.15880712

>>15880588
Hey...

Explain Daemons to me. I'm the Eldar player from above and CSMs were my alternate army (having a GEQ and a MEQ seemed like two good choices). My 2nd Edition CSMs had a fair few daemons but since I started WHFB it seemed like a good choice to start a DoC army as my second choice (WEs, my normal WFHB army, are... so similar to Eldar. They are in need of updating).

So I was thinking that I could use my Daemons as both 40k and WFHB with a bit of tweaking on the movement trays. Instead of having them in 25mm square bases (WFHB), I can have them all on 25mm round (40k) bases and still be able to use them in WHFB.

>> No.15880723

>>15880684
i did have some necrons at one point but then i realised they had no tanks at all and I like tanks.
>>15880654
This is a helpful post because i hadn't thought about the logistics of transporting a full IG army anywhere, and starship troopers are awesome too.

>> No.15880752

>>15880684

Must be nice to live in a fantasy land.
Tell me, how do you go about killing 18 chimeras with chaos demons, that can take a maximum of 14 anti-tank weapons *USING AN ENTIRE FORCE ORGANIZATION CHART?*

Some armies just suck ass.
If you're playing against scrubs at the local GW, that's not a concern. After all, they'll be using battleforces, too, and whine a lot about how this and that's imba.

Outside 'the local store,' bad armies are really, really bad, and you'll feel it quickly.

>> No.15880797
File: 60 KB, 873x627, demons codex.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15880797

>>15880712

Demons:

must deepstrike.
must divide their army into two components, and roll for which comes in.
have no way to manipulate reserves.
have very little shooting.
have almost no anti-tank, outside of silly rending. They don't even get powerfists.
units are very costly, yet for some bizarre reason. mostly have a 5+ save. It's invulnerable, but since when did that matter when it's a 5+?

There's more reasons, like how they have few ways to move faster than infantry once they touch down, their only vehicle is a bullshit walker that's so large, it immobilizes itself when it deepstrikes in, and everything with wings costs too much, but we don't need to cover that.

Want to know more?

>> No.15880800

>>15880723
The logistics bit is a point to consider.
While infantery is not much of a problem (unless fancy poses everywhere), a mallet can only transport so much vehicules and monsters before insulting you.

Models like Monolyths or Vendettas are awesome as all hell, super useful on tabletop but complete bitches to carry around.

The website of KR Multicases has a section" What fits" showing you what fits (surprise !) in a standard case, for planification purposes.

>> No.15880801

now I know that i really should buy models new from the store, but for some things that just isn't viable, so is there any way to strip paint off used models?

>> No.15880816

>>15880800
ok that's cool
I don't think i'd be using an official GW carry case, just because i looked and it was 60 quid for a plastic suitcase with foam in it which I could make for 10 quid.

>> No.15880835

>>15880659

>doesn't realise I've been playing for 20 years.

Thank god you at least have your own club, where you can all be beardy assholes together.

>> No.15880836

>>15880752
People at my club don't seem to bitch as much as everyone on here does. Seriously, you guys won't stop.
Deamons are a for shits and giggles army. That's their selling point You don't expect to win with them. you expect to make yourself laugh and hopefully make your opponent cry. Some people like that, some don't.

With my crons, I use my monolith (or two) to teleport and regenerate, and keep my warriors out of combat, and suddenly, I don't get phazed out as often. That tends to help. It can get monobuildy sometimes, but I usually find points to space to throw in something new or exciting.

I mainly play in club, where we have our share of power gamers, and it doesn't concern me so much. I managed to win against blood angles running around with a death company dread and special character deepstriking into my infantry by turn two.

>> No.15880840

>>15880516

This guy is wrong. I have three armies, Tyranids, GK, and Orks. I actually win more with the Tyranids due to my style of the play and the list that I have spent several months revising after each game. It is true that we are missing some models, but only two of the missing models are actually decent, and they are easy to convert. When you plan an army that doesn't pile into tin cans and hide in the corner, the win just feels that much more satisfying. Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, Tau.... all of these armies are not the meta and will really try your skill as a player. It is possible to win with them, if you are smart, patient, and enjoy their play style

>> No.15880854

>>15880797
Nope... that... that probably covers it...

So, my DoC that I'd currently would be able to field would... really suck against anything with tanks. Of course they would. I might sort them out for 40k anyway.

>> No.15880855

>>15880835

Yeah, it's great to not have to worry about hurting butts simply by the mere act of WINNING GAMES OF TOY SOLDIERS, and drinking beer during games.

God damn, you FAAC fags need to be exterminated. It's good GW still maintains their bullshit stores, so I don't have to mix with you outside of tournaments.

>> No.15880862

>>15880816
The "best" solution is magnets. I won't detail, because i don't use them, but it's arguably the most flexible, sure and cheap way to carry miniatures around.

I prefer foam cases, because it's so much simpler for the third rate tinkerer that i am.

>> No.15880865

>>15880840
What's your play style?
And i can't decide if tanks or huge space dinosaurs are cooler

>> No.15880873

>>15880854

You can do sorta-kinda limited things with them, but the army's all about luck and dice rolls. Yes, it was made by the guy who supposedly wrote 5th edition, yet has no way to take advantage of the new ruleset.

You've got two options, really. Fateweaver, or 4 bolt heralds on chariots. One makes your tiny army almost marine-like in durability, and the other lets you take on armored opponents.

>> No.15880878

>>15880855
>drinking beer while playing 40k
will they let me do this in the store? i don't have any friends who play/ will play 40k with me

>> No.15880897
File: 487 KB, 803x1200, grey knight brothercaptain.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15880897

>>15880840

I have initiative 6 force weapons. Your army's useless before my might.

Your playstyle doesn't feature into the equation. I simply crush you, because my book's far, far superior to yours - even if I take some bullshit mix of units 'fpr fun.' It's the same with space wolves, imperial guard, blood angels, and vanilla marines.

Not all books are created equally. It's very dangerous to pretend they are when new players around, because it often makes them believe your bullshit, then they buy all these firewarriors.

>> No.15880908

>>15880840
The problem with Tyranids is just as much the crappy everyone-and-his-brother-in-a-transport metagame and the bizarro 5e cover/wounding/no retreat rules as it is the Tyranid codex. The codex feels a) unfinished, which it is, they pumped it out several months early to coincide with the Space Hulk release, and b) like it was designed for a different edition.

I still love playin my nids, but they're not the powerhouse they used to be. Heck, they aren't even really adaptable anymore. For the supposedly most-adaptable race, you have to plan absolutely every contingency out from the army-building stage if you want to win. They're not shit-tier by any means, but they don't have anything like the tactical flexibility that they ought to.

>> No.15880913

>>15880801
Greenstuff for plastic, Acetone for metal.
No idea for resin.

Metal is pretty much invincible, it's very safe to buy it second hand (unless it's been poorly home-cast). Plastic gets fucked up with plastic glue.

If you find a good deal (<50% RRP for good quality models, 40% RRP is what I aim for. USA/UK might be different) then second hand is the way to go. New models are fantastic though, it really depends on how much effort you're willing to get second hand models up to scratch and how much disposable income you have.

>> No.15880915

>>15880878

No, they won't, and they'll whine if you win games against them, too.
That's why you play at clubs, so you can do things that adults do while they game, like drink, swear, eat pizza, smacktalk, and discuss politics.

It's nice to not have to worry about little kids picking up your models, too, and not getting yelled at because you're playing space wolves/lash chaos/Cygnar/WAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD!!!!!111111111

>> No.15880918

>>15880865

A nid list that flows well is one that isn't "nidzilla" or a swarm list, but rather a perfect balance of MCs, little shits, and medium sized can openers. In addition to having a good balance of each unit type, you MUST stack modifiers. The key to winning with nids giving all those little worthless units Preferred Enemy, Poison, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, and all of that good stuff, just by being near another unit. If you are playing nids correctly, you will have a lot of options to reroll hit and wound dice with multiple combinations... as well as heavily modify your reserves to your liking.

>> No.15880921

>>15880752

It is a hobby. A GAME, that you play with your friends. Yes you'll never beat a tank rush with daemons, who cares. When your buddy beats you once you laugh and you play different forces. Or you use house rules that add more anti-tank options. Or you play allies. Or a scenario with special rules. Or a million other ways to enjoy playing a game with friends and potential bros.

But no. For some it's all about winning, this is imbalanced, this is overpowered. Nothing is fair or equal.

Nobody cares any more about the nature of the hobby. About your awesome HQ conversion with completely illegal weapon options that just look cool, or playing campaigns and scenario games. Or painting or collecting. Or the game where Kharn the betrayer cut his way through a Warlord Titan on the second day of a 50,000 point game because all 8 players agreed that fuck the rules, shit sounds awesome. Nobody just plays their army come hell or highwater.

Because people always have to win and if they don't it's broken.

I'm sick and mad. So mad.

>> No.15880937

>>15880897
of course the armies aren't equal. That doesn't mean that Grey Knights are impossible to beat. I've seen CSM, Vanilla Marines, Guard, DE, and Tau beat them. The Tau one required insane planning, carefulness and tactical superiority to manage, but the guy did it.

But yes, at the end of the day, Fire Warriors suck, half of the Necron elites sucks, et cetera. Doesn't make those armies impossible to use.

>> No.15880940

>>15880897
GK are overrated. It's the same as Vet IG : looks mighty and cool, totally OP on paper, but just doesn't fulfill its promises as it should.

Sure is very good, but on par with Mech IG or BA ? I strongly doubt it. A codex can't be grasped on a single year..

>> No.15880950

>>15880908
but this just means i can build an army for when they get a proper codex
>>15880897
I'll play games against GK just in the hope that the dice shit on them
Because nothing in the werld is sweeter that beating people who only play to win, with a far inferior army.
i've seen pictures from what would be my local store and it seems most people there either play blood ravens, ultramarines, orks and i think a guy has tau.
(yes i facebook stalker a shop i don't even visit)

>> No.15880951

>>15880921

Come now.
It's a game. By its very definition, it's a competition. You bring out your dudes, and I bring out mine. Now we pit our wits against each other, and use dice as the equalizer.

One wins, the other loses.

Of course I'm gonna play to win. I spent all this money on my dudes, and you're telling me it's somehow bad that I'm playing to win with them?

Only in 40k, /tg. Only in 40k.

>> No.15880954

>>15880897

I have two shot, LOS ignoring, cover ignoring missile launchers... as well as 60 i7 attacks w/ rending and poison, as well as rerolling hits and wounds. Go hide in your tin can, troll.

>> No.15880956

>>15880420
no army is the best if you just want to win, even the most OP armies will lose in the hands of an incompetent commander, or when facing a competent opponent.

>> No.15880995
File: 22 KB, 444x319, hive guard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15880995

>>15880954

Range 24 guns don't scare me, especially when they're AP4.

I7, you say? Too bad you can't have grenades, in any shape or form. Way, way too bad.
Hey, I can make my dudes I10 with this spellcaster dude, who also gives me all these other perks, and doesn't cost 250 points, like your hive tyrant.

50 point missile launchers, with halved range. God, that's so broken.
Not like I get these 10 point assault cannons with S7, or autocannons with S8, for insta-gibbing your warriors.

Oh, wait.

>> No.15881017

>>15880918
>If you're playing nids correctly, all your guys should be getting buffs
And now, see? The "correct" way to design your army is to carefully plan out all your stacking buffs and your delicate formations so that you get the most out of a lot of bland and sometimes overcosted units.

Not to mention, arranging your models so carefully into such an intricate blob means you lack tactical flexibility. Your bugs always have to move in one giant mob. You can't coordinate anything with them aside from moving in a blob, or the gaunts just die or do something stupid because they fall out of synapse.

Furthermore, because there's a center for every buff, your army actually has what you could call "joints". Points in your army that the enemy can crack and destroy, and losing them makes the whole army start to fall apart. Tyranids have more "joints" than any other army out there right now, and their joints are also the biggest, most easily hit from afar, and most in-your-face obvious about their roles.

It's just a badly designed codex. That's all there is to it.

>> No.15881024

>>15880951

It's not bad that you play to win.
It's bad that you seem only to be playing to win.

And if you can't understand that there is more to the hobby than that I just feel sorry for you.

>> No.15881027

>>15880951
there is a difference between playing competitively, and playing for the sake of your inflated ego. People don't seem to mind having a kill death ratio of 1.something to 1 in call of duty, but if their win loose ratio in 40k is anything lower than "always win, all the time" they freak the fuck out.

And call of duty is just as expensive a hobby. If you bought it early the Xbox was around 300 bucks, the game was 60, live is 15 a month, and you have to spend lots of time leveling up and getting good. So why do people only accept having a shitty win loose ratio in CoD?

>> No.15881032

Don't play Chaos Spehss Muhreens. Having three new codecii (SW,BA,GK) that can all do your game better than you can is just painful.

>> No.15881040

>>15880913
not a very big budget
very willing to spend a few hours to shave off a pound or two on the price of something
>>15880918
thanks man, i'll bear that in mind
>>15880915
DAMN that would be awesome if you could eat pizza and drink beer in the store.
>>15880940
MeCH IG sounds fun as hell but would cost hundreds for a decent sized army.
OH and by the way, i'll probably look to be playing 1k-1.5k games primarily.

>> No.15881052

>>15880995

>implying any nid player who knows what he is doing didn't rip the warrior page right out of the dex.

I will admit, in tournaments, my record against GKs with nids isnt 100% (2w 5l 1d) but it sure isn't impossible to slap the shit out of your little whiteknights with some fat bug cock.

>> No.15881068
File: 66 KB, 600x488, GK autocannon dread badass.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15881068

But in all seriousness, and without the trolling, here's the gist of things.

5th edition is pretty balanced against itself. What I mean is, 5th edition dexes will - outside the sole exception that's tyranids - do competently against each other.

Guard, space wolves, grey knights, blood angels, vanilla marines, dark eldar are all proper and good, with tons of choice in each 'dex.
For instance, you can do grey knights with a million wimpy, fleshy human dudes, and it'll work, or you can do ultra-small elite armies with paladins, and that'll work, too. Meanwhile, marines can do bikes, basic mechanized that's still very, very different to their red and grey brothers, or alter their basic abilities with various chapter tactics.

At this point in time, few of the older books are even viable as 'for fun' projects.
Tau have the power, but it's not exciting to play the exact same army over and over, using the exact same deployment, and the exact same seps during each and every turn. Witch hunters are in the same position.

That's really the truth of the matter, whether you like it or not.

>> No.15881109

>>15881017

I like overlaying modifiers, it fits my style of play in the games I played before I came to 40k. I chose nids knowing the negative things people say about them, because I read the rules, read a few other dexes, and thought "I am going to have the most fun with this" and it just so happens that when played correctly, they can be very competitive. If you dont think nids can be competitive, please go review the final standings for this years adepticon. Also in most GTs, there is 2 nid players in the top forty, with one of them within the top 10 more often than not.

>> No.15881137

>>15881068
so with this in wind i'll say how it seems to be for a new player
IG- good if you have the money
Space marines- Grey kights would get boring because you wouldn't really have to try and you'd still stomp people
Tyranidss have potential but a bad codex
Tau- same as nids but ranged
Dark eldar are a possiblity
eldar same problem as tau but without the potential
orks- no love for the WAAAAGH
chaos- why when there are GKs?
Am i right in thinking this?

>> No.15881160

>>15881109

Adepticon is scrubhammer.
If you absolutely must use tournaments to gauge armies (not necessary, because stupid is easy to spot), you look at NOVA.

That's where the big boys play. Orks got smashed, no tyranids placed, necrons didn't show.

>> No.15881189

>>15881137
oh and
necrons- about to become huge faggots if the rumours about them not being slaves anymore are true

>> No.15881220

>>15881137
I'd split the SM up. While SM, BA, SW, and GK are all good, the DA and BT are hurting.

>> No.15881226
File: 672 KB, 664x1200, grey knight grandmaster.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15881226

>>15881137

Orks have some serious issues, and are mostly a non-issue at this point.
Basically, it's like tyranids mixed with chaos demons.

If you're new to the game, don't get orks, ever. I'd get tau over orks.

New players should really stick to Wardexes. Not because they're 'overpowered,' or 'broken,' but because of consistency. Space wolves, for instance, have a lot of gimmicks that are no longer useful, while the old marine 'dex doesn't show many signs of aging.

This is because Ward kinda made 5th edition, and knows that armies need certain tools to compete, or even be enjoyable to collect and field.

Grey knights are really, really interesting, because the army really appeals to everybody.
With a technical 5 (!) different troops, there's not a lot you can't do with it.

>> No.15881238
File: 7 KB, 140x140, 1297618236414.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
15881238

Seeing some of the comments trolls make about Grey Knights almost makes me want to finish my Eldar force just so I can distance myself from them.

I started off playing Deamonhunters about a year before they got their update. Models were annoying to find and play style was a pain to learn(abusing the living fuck out of shrouding was fun though). Update comes around, I go from just another player to suddenly POWERGAMING FAGGOT BANDWAGGONJUMPER! Sucked for a while, and there are still people who think Grey Knights are overpowered just because their codex is the newest(which in and of itself is just stupid).

Fact is, Grey Knights are no more powerful than any other 5th Edition army out there. If anything, we're only slightly better than Codex Marines, and still far below what IG and Space Wolf armies can pull off if they want to be cheesy.

It costs around 25 points a model to kit out a Grey Knight properly. For that we get a marine with a storm bolter, and an I6 power weapon(the force weapon component is almost never used outside of fighting nid MC's and nobz). Our only infantry-mobile anti-vehicle weapon is the psycannon, but it requires rending shots to do much against anything besides AV10.

Stormravens? 205 point AV12 targets

The main units in our force worth taking are Purifiers(yeah, they will rip a horde a new one, but cost almost 290 points to kit out and to take them as troops requires a completely useless 150 point HQ) and the psyrifleman dreads(135 points for 4 TL S8 AP4 shots, oh yeah;shame it pretty much is the sum of our anti-vehicle power).

Other than that, there are henchmen, but that's for another post.

>> No.15881306

>>15881238
But space marines are just boring becaus they're so common, and their backgrounds aren't as cool as the other races (look at imperial guardsman, and tell me that if a space marines was put through what a guardsman was, the imperial wouldn't have already won the universe)
>>15881226
Well if the 5th edition codexes will bring the other armies into line, it would be worth just picking an army i'd enjoy painting and using, and hope their dex is good
not really the way i'd like it but hey, if i can eat people alive with space dinosaurs, it's a morale victory even if i lose

>> No.15881314

>>15881238

I'm the 'troll.'
Back in 2003, I picked up demonhunters.

Yes, it took them 8 years to update the army.

>> No.15881326

>>15881306
Really depends on where you are.
At my shop, it's a buncha older guys where orks, eldar and tau rule the day, with a handful of imperium armies.

>> No.15881327

>>15881226
Can you even understand what you just typed?
Grey knight are far, far, far from appealing to everyone. They don't play like a xeno army, they simply play like a better version of old imperial ones.
Also, thier fluff was wrecked, their models are not very interesting, the latin written on them is pathetically lacking subtlety or coolness, and more than anything else, they are fucking bland as balls to play against. its the same three up and two up save spam, used to cover for the mistakes that the players make.

>> No.15881364

>>15881306

Space marines can be whatever you want them to be, because there are a thousand chapters, and each one differs from the others slightly.
Essentially, GW tells you to build your own, with your own background.

>> No.15881393

>>15881364
but the only thing I'd want them for are tanks
and IG do tanks better
(also guardsmen ore just so much cooler)

>> No.15881402

>>15881327

The one xeno army that doesn't suck (dark eldar) plays like marines. Dudes in cheap transports, with special weapons, characters act as support, guntanks/boats, large blasts, flamers, meltaguns...

Yeah.

Old GK didn't have fluff. This is a bullshit thing that /tg likes to pretend is real, but is in fact, fanon. The old book has most of a Gav novel pasted into it, but tells you very, very little about the knights, the inquisition itself.

Like how the 'new' dark angels is totally a better written 'dex than the old one, or the Ward marine 'dex, because 'Jervis, duh! OMG, so good fluff!'

Protip: dark angels has one page devoted to talking about all the different basic marine units, and GK didn't have fluff in the old codex.

>> No.15881426

>>15881327

armies that appeal to the meta let the player make a dumb mistake, and their codex will save them during a game. "Mommy, I just shit my pants, please change my diaper for me so I don't lose" If you are playing just about ANY xeno army, you don't have that luxury. If an Eldar, cron, nid, or ork player beats a GK or puppy player, then they are are a better player, plain and simple. Fix something faster and better with hand tools than the guy with all of the manuals and the newest powertools means that on an experience and skill level, he outclasses the guy with the flashy stuff

>> No.15881487

>>15881426

More like they don't punish you for failing a step during the crisis dance.
"Oh god! I rolled below average for my plasmarifles. Now I'm fucked, and there's no saving me!"

Are you seriously suggesting power armor is somehow 'good' in this edition? It's called coversavehammer for a reason, you know.
My marines have a save one blip higher than your guardsmen, orks, gants, conscripts...

You're stupid, guy.
If you give this expert craftsman a rock, he's not gonna build you a fucking house, but the total newbie with the manual, crew, and the powertools will.

>> No.15881505

>>15881402
But the new fluff is contradictory to what little there was established. Example, why do you have an ordo xeno and ordo hereticus inquisitors in your book, when the Grey Knights are the militant arm of the Ordo Mallus. Why is Kharmazov running around with the grey Knights?
Furthermore, I have beaten grey knights with my Necrons. I have beaten blood angles, space wolves, imperial guard, et cetera with my Necrons.
I can't be the only person capable of doing so.

The xeno armies that are supposedly so bad can and will triumph over imperial ones if you actually give more than a glancing thought to what you do.
Games Workshop gives the imperial armies too much of an uperhand, and forsakes the xeno armies, and for some reason people just say, oh well, guess I better play imperial.

>> No.15881526

>>15881487

no, i am suggesting that castling up in tanks, spamming longfangs, and drawing lines and removing models is very effective. if he gets beat by the boyz, he has nobody to blame but himself

>> No.15881547

>>15881526
thats usually the case anyways, i wouldn't say any victory is easy, some spam list are more effective than others for sure, but its by far not a guaranteed win.

>> No.15881553

>>15881487
Look at you, extending a metaphore to the point it looses meaing. Aren't you smart.
You can't make a full house out of onlt a rock, seeing as its not enough material, doesn't allow for things such as electricity. There, i did it too.

At the end of teh day, if you know what you're doing, and you love what you're doing, you can make almost any army work. Just because you can't play 'cron, orks or nids for the life of you doesn't mean other people can't/

Just accept the fact that you want a different difficulty level and a different playing experience than others, move the fuck on, and don't discourage others from daring to try 40k on hard mode

>> No.15881567

>>15881426
Should I point out that unless you can learn to deal with masses of 3+ and 2+ saves you should just give up competitive play altogether?

Every army has ways of dealing with them, ranging from massed shooting(Eldar and Tau) massed assaults(nids, orks), or just sending in a hammer blow units(MC's, power weapons, artillery, etc).

That aside, the prevalence of 4+ cover negates the majority of the disadvantages a 5+ or 6 armor save has, unless, of course, you just don't know how to play.

>> No.15881597

>>15881553

+ 1 internets to this guy.
Xeno: 40k on hard mode.

>> No.15881607

>>15881402
>The one xeno army that doesn't suck (dark eldar) plays like marines. Dudes in cheap transports, with special weapons, characters act as support, guntanks/boats, large blasts, flamers, meltaguns...
...
what

>> No.15881617
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15881617

>>15881505

The old 'fluff' was Gav abominations.
For instance, these pushy, whiny, bitchy men and women in coats magically have the power to shove THE GREY KNIGHTS around? No, thank you.

That was done to sell the inquisitor game, mind. It's also why sisters were changed from the church's army, to the inquisition's army - a change that didn't go over well with anyone.

In the olden days, the inquisition worked with two very, very specialized, yet still independent, marine forces. These were the grey knights and the deathwatch. It was also canon to say that, inofficially, the grey knights were the inquisition's personal army of sorts, that could be counted upon to act as its military force.

What's happened in 5th is, Ward was ordered by Jervis to undo the Gav stupidity - ergo, grey knights are now the chamber militant of THE INQUISITION, and all branches of this organization are now stuck under a single roof, as they should be. Meanwhile, sisters are having the forced and crowbarred inq elements pulled out of them, so they'll once again be the church's army.

Then there's the fanon stupidity.
Nowhere did the old fluff ever even allude to how many grey knights were in existence, but /tg and warseer made up this idea that they must have 19485859592 marines, for some reason or other. Ward's now decided to state, loud and clear, that they'll have basically 1000 battle-brothers at any given time, and this huge, extremely harsh grinder on Titan, for quickly training new knights to replace their losses.

I could go on.

>> No.15881628
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15881628

>The one xeno army that doesn't suck (dark eldar) plays like marines. 3+ armor saves everywhere, metal boxes...

>> No.15881639

>>15881505
The way I look at the fluff is this: ignore the inquisitors. They're mainly used for henchman armies anyway. Now ignore anything pertaining to Draigo and the Bloodtide. Much better now, isn't it?

That aside, according to the fluff, anyone who sees the Grey Knights is either going to be killed or mind wiped. Old fluff just said that hardly anyone knew about them and that they were the best marines there were. Ward just had to put some description to them so they would outdo his Ultramarines in that regard.

Strange that it never mentions them killing an Avatar though, despite it being a deamon.

>> No.15881654
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15881654

>>15880528
Guard are great since you can do pretty much everything with them.

Wanna drown your enemy in human wave attacks? Sure, it's hella fun too. Wanna speed around the field in skimmers blowing the fuck out of every one and their mommas while humming ride of the valkyries? Totally doable. Wanna crush the enemy under your armoured treads? No one does it better. Wanna pound the enemy into the dirt from the other side of the table? Same. Wanna do a mix of any of the above? It's all good.

You must be prepared to see your dudes drop in droves, because they most likely will.

Guard are also great for psyching your opponent. I've seen so many people go "awww hell naw" when you fill your deployment zone and still have things in reserve. Often they repeat that even louder when you get first turn and 90% of your army gets to shoot the shit out of his. When your opponent then manages to kill off an entire squad and gets his hopes up, remind him that it was 65 points and it's your turn now. Also it's always fun when your cheap as shit dudes get lucky and make their points 5 times in a turn.

>> No.15881656

>>15881597
that sounds cool because that means there's a higher skill ceiling, and so i won't get bored of just winning everything, with no one to play me once i get good enough with an imperial army.
will go Tau or tyranids most likely, IG if i suddenly decide I want to spend millions on tanks.

>> No.15881663

>>15881628

4+ cover and feel no pain is actually comparable to power armor.

Hmmm.

That's not the point.
The point is, they have these small units in metal boxes that shoot, meltaguns, lots of 'missile launchers' that happen to be AP2, characters that change the force organization chart, support characters, combat units that are good for combat, shooty that's decently priced, no rules that outright fuck your army from the start, and don't overprice model X because 'it's, like, new, maaaan!'

>> No.15881678

>>15881639

You're dumb.
Old fluff, even old fluff from 2nd edition, expressively told you that ANYONE WHO KNEW ABOUT THE GREY KNIGHTS WAS TO BE KILLED OR MINDWIPED.

Same if the knew of the existence of demons, or chaos marines.
This is canon law.

It's not a Ward thing.

>> No.15881679

>>15881663
>bitching about Dark Eldar
>no one mentions Combat Drugs, all their poison weapon bullshit, and that fucking Archon

Just wait until the new 'Crons book. Just. You. Fucking. Wait.

>> No.15881708

My only gripe with wardexes is that all 40k armies are turning into: Dudes in transports with special weapons go!

>> No.15881718

>>15881679
Very true. Doesn't make them particualarly that much better than any other 5th army. i've seen space wolves outshoot and out close combat DE in the same game

>> No.15881721

Ok, in so far about 40k, form a competative standpoint:

It's not just about the spam list, but having understanding of _why_ they work. The current ruleset of 40k makes vehicles significantly harder to kill than infantry, and vehicles have many ways to control movement on the table and blunt the effectiveness of assault units. An army needs to either contain a lot of vehicles, or else, be so damn tough that it doesn't matter (which is hard to do.)

I'll conservatively say that you do NOT want to start with an army that's hard to play, like tau or necrons, or even demons (random deployment lololol). It is such a turn off to lose 15 4 hour games in a row when you're first learning the rules. Rather, the safe choices are in imperial armies, since they all have ways of putting a lot of armor on the table, and a lot of ways of killing armor, and there's enough variable fluff for you to play the army you want.

As for grey knights, they seem to my eyes to be a mainly midfield shooting army - they kinda need to be within 24'' to get the best results of the shooting phase.

Go google "yes the truth hurts". yes, the guy on that website is a troll and a tournyfag extradonair, yes - but he makes good lists, and he more importantly, explains why and how they are supposed to work more often than not.

>> No.15881734

>>15881708

Because they want to sell transports, and that's how the ruleset works.
Ward's the only one who's trying to do things differently, with bikermarines, paladins, grand strategy funnies, and jump pack blood angels.'

>> No.15881737

>>15881654
THE ONLY PROBLEM IS
i don't think i can paint skin
that's the only reason i probably wont go IG, money i can save up, but i don't want to spend a lot on infantry and then i still can't make them look good.

>> No.15881760

>>15881718
They have an HQ that lets you roll 2d6 for Combat Drugs and pick the best one, one of which lets you reroll To Wound. OH YEAH THEY ALSO HAVE PAIN TOKENS AND UNITS THAT CAN START THE WHOLE ARMY OFF WITH FUCKING FEEL NO PAIN.

>> No.15881777
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15881777

>>15881737
>apply skin paint of your choice
>apply skin wash of your choice

I'm not bullshitting you, it's really that easy. Besides no one's gonna pick up one guardsman out of a 100 and really care what his face looks like.

>> No.15881793

>>15881777
but then i literally can't decide between tyranid tau or IG
downsides of them all
tyranid- no tanks
tau- kroot are pretty useless, only 1 competitive army build
IG- expensive, orders might be annoying.

>> No.15881797

>>15881721
>An army needs to either contain a lot of vehicles, or else, be so damn tough that it doesn't matter (which is hard to do.)

Massive amounts of boots on the ground with massive amounts of firepower can work too, guess their numbers give them the toughness.

>> No.15881801

>>15881793

Kroot are pretty damn key to winning with tau.

>> No.15881818

>>15881801
compared to every other race's CC troops they're pretty useless
they just seem to be to stall enemy CC units until somethin can blitz them.

>> No.15881822
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15881822

>>15881793
>tyranids
>tanks

TANKS? TAAANKS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' TANKS.

pic related

>> No.15881847

>>15881678
Don't remember saying it was new. Just said that hardly anyone knew about them.

The main thing ward added was outright clarifying that their gene seed was a seperate batch cooked up by the Emperor rather than being from the Deathguard and other loyalists from the traitor legions.

>> No.15881865

>>15881793
Unfortunately, kroot are better than firewarriors. They actually kill almost the exact same amount of stuff per point (lower ST guns, but el cheapo models) and they're much better as screens and blocking units and what have you, since the squads are humongous. Inside a forest they even have the same save. One of the things that I liked about the DoW games was that they actually make Fire Warriors useful, which is sadly not the case in this edition.

>> No.15881867

>>15881822
DINOSAUR TANKS
when are the new codexes out for each race?
And thanks tg, you've been helpful and given me a fair few things to think about it but i need sleep

>> No.15881882

>>15881793
Orders aren't that important and not that anoying and nids don't really need tanks. A tank can be taken out by one shot and it happens rather often. A toughness 6 nid with 3-6 wounds and a 3+ save can be a lot harder to take out at times. I know this guy who does really tough nid lists with fuck loads of hard to kill monsters with with gaunts fucking everywhere. Most anti tank lists can have a hard time dealing with that.

I'd go with either Nids or Guard or wait till Tau get a new codex, but I don't know how long that will take. Shit I might even do a Tau list myself when they do.

>> No.15881932

>>15881818

That's not what they're for, at all.
They're there to die, and provide a buffer that people need to cut through before they can get at the rest of your army.

This is why people don't win with tau. They don't understand how the army works.

>> No.15881955

>>15881818
kroot aren't dedicated close combat, they're 7 point apiece skirmishers who can hide in woods and be tough as nails while peppering the enemy with st 4 ap6 fire, or they can jump out and attack issolated elements, (specifically non combat elements or artillery. with st 4 kroot can actually fuck up a tank too close to the board edge if it hasn't moved)

not to mention late game outflanking shenanigans.

>> No.15881973

>>15881867
one codex usually comes out every 3 months. or so,

>> No.15881983
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15881983

>>15881932
>>15881955
Or they can force your opponet to forfeit the game due to inability to deploy.

>> No.15881984

>>15881955
i did not know this
that's another thing for me to bear In mind then i suppose

>> No.15882087

>>15881932
not to mention they're supposed to do damage, but also get slaughtered by the enemy so that you will have the chance to shoot at said target the turn afterwards. so that you can isolate and destroy said units.

Kroot have so many functions its awesome. gotta love em. also i've had 70 points of kroot kill 400 points of dark eldar before. shit was awesome.

a fire warriors save doesn't justify their price especially since they don't get that much more firepower out there. They're best used in transports, since the transports are much more useful (acting as screens for crisis suits. that is you don't completely underestimate the firewarriors. they can have their own uses.


Tau was my first 40k army and i love the blue bastards, but i must say i played warhammer fantasy long before that and had some exposure to 40k so i wasn't a complete newbie.

Tau will be a difficult army to master and even at its peak you have to be able to maneuver well. That being said don't underestimate them if you ever play against them even if you decide on a different army. Tiers only really matter in tournaments and tournaments players aren't as common as you'd think most people are just average joes with cool ideas. (at least as far as i've seen it)

>> No.15882158
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15882158

BLACK TEMPLARS OR NOTHING.

>> No.15882181

Fire warriors with transports work wonderfully well against non-meq armies.

Park the devilfish mid map, giving the fire warriors cover from one side of the enemy fire. Then, as the enemy advances, pull the fw's back into the devilfish and back the fuck up. Redeploy and repeat.

Vespids are also a fucking amazing unit that gets no love. Tears the shit out of MEQ units holding objectives. Shit eating plague marines aren't as bad when you have S5 AP3 assault weapons deepstriking onto objectives.

>> No.15882220

>>15882181
Shit eating plague marines aren't as bad when you have S5 AP3 assault weapons deepstriking onto objectives.

You still wound on a 4+ and they have FNP. I guarantee the vespid won't survive the return fire.

>> No.15882239

>>15882181
yeah i actually have to agree about the vespid, i mean they have to pay for some of their abilities that now don't really compliment them at all.

but jump packs, being able to make use of marker lights and move through cover isn't all that bad, sure their guns are short range but they pack quite the punch when used right. Though they are best used with markerlights to mark anything they are shooting at.

but moving 12 into cover safely and shooting is fuck awesome. if the enemy unit is isolated and not a close combat unit you can almost even engage them if you rather not risk getting shot at, but vespid should never really leave cover if they have the choice.

though i'd rather use Helios suits ( fusion + plasma + multi-tracker) on plague marines,
(you had high toughness, armor and fnp, i hadn't noticed)

>> No.15882259

>>15881882

Ignore the nid and tau hate in this list, both are very fun armies to play and play against. I personally hate playing against nids (outflanking buttsecks, forcing me to deploy in the middle) and tau (nobody ever really hides from a broadside). Those armies, even though they are xenos and behind the 8-ball due to their dexes, can still ruin someone's day in the hands of a skilled general. It's all about how you play, and your experience. You will play against, and lose against, wolves and GK a lot, due to their prevalence and very powerful dexes; however, that one day you play against the guy who made his tau or nids work out competitively, and find yourself desperately trying to hide from railguns, smart missiles, or impaler cannons, you will learn that any army has its niche.

>> No.15882283

This thread is perfect example of why 40k is shit.
GW is all about making money, so every time they make a new codex, it's better than the old ones. Thus people keep switching armies, and GW keeps profiting.
And you fags just eat that shit up.

>> No.15882330

I'd be okay with codex creep if it didn't have everyone rushing to the new dex's every single fucking time.

Seriously, anyone playing in 'ard boyz, I hope you enjoy playing against space wolves and IG and space wolves.

>> No.15882344

>>15882283
This is not true. The 4e Chaos Marines codex and the 5e Tyranid codices were substantially worse than their previous incarnations. 3.5e Chaos Marines is generally regarded as one of the best codices ever written, and 4e is just kinda meh.

4e Tyranids had some overpowered units, but the new codex is just a shadow of its former glory.

40K is annoying because it's so inconsistent. GW trying to make money is just an added irritant. I'm much more upset about price hikes every 3 months than I am about codex creep.

>> No.15882408

>>15882344
>4e Tyranids had some overpowered units
not really, the only thing was 'nidzilla at 500 and 1500 pts exactly, which were more FoC fuckups.

>3.5e Chaos Marines is generally regarded as one of the best codices ever written
chaos player here.

yes. except for the iron warriors getting BOTH elite obliterators and 4 heavy slots, everything else was pretty good. also cultists needed to be bumped up by a point or two, and siren nerfed slightly. otherwise the book was great.

>> No.15882757

I enjoy winning more often than losing in my gaming group with my themed ulthwe force. I dont know why reading /tg/'s whines and gripes about eldar coz well when i put this supposedly "not even worth playing, gay and lame, lame and gay" army list it fucking tables shit.

2 Farseers.
8 Warcocks.
In a fucking wave serpent.

6 Dragons.
In a fucking holofielded falcon.

5 Wraithguard with another warcock.

40 fucking guardians. Yes 40 fucking guardians.

9 Jetbikes and 2 Vypers coz well they look fucking awesome on a flank.

A fire prism that always fucking misses and does shit but seems to have some psychological effect.

Then you know what i take, just for shits and giggles - a full squadron of outflanking war walkers coz well once again they're guardians and they look awesome.

I table shit with what should be the weakest themed list ever.

Like some people have said, if you like the theme of an army and stick with it for 20 years you actually learn how to win with it.

>> No.15882853

>>15882757
warwalkers outflanking are awesome.

Well how about this. In my gaming circle i take an ethereal.

Nuff said.

I've won more games than i've lost, though my wins and ties about about equal.

>> No.15882900

>>15882853
Epic

One of my group had daemons from fantasy and has been chain failing with them in 40k so hes giving up and getting IG.
Im gonna babysit his models till i fucking win coz thats how i roll.

>> No.15883292

>>15882900
Ethereals aren't bad if you see them as a 5 point upgrade to give your crisis suits re-rollable moral for the first half of the game and preferred enemy for the last half of the game. and potentially a free move directly away from the enemy.

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