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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.15790312 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Anyone else hate the swordmage class in 4e because of its "LOLOLOL TELEPORTING IS EASY GUYS" bullshit?

Traditional fantasy doesn't have the warrior wizards teleporting every 6 seconds.

>> No.15790323

Traditional fantasy has spears that explode into a cavalcade of death when they hit a target.

Also berserking so hard that your torso switches around.

What's wrong with teleporting?

>> No.15790340

That's because 4E and Traditional Fantasy have as much in common as Stephanie Meyer and Dante.

>> No.15790356

>>15790323
>>15790340
Even in high fantasy a level 1 shmuck can't teleport every 6 seconds.

In 4e, a level 1 swordmage can.

>> No.15790365

>>15790356

YOU READ LITERATURE WITH "LEVELS"? INTERESTING.

>> No.15790369

>>15790356

Oh.

Um, well. I never have played 4e.

>>15790340

That's an unfair comparison. Bram Stoker and Stephenie Meyer is more fair. And still makes her look terrible.

>> No.15790374

>>15790365

I dunno, I would. I like some meta fun in my reading material every now and then.

>> No.15790393

>>15790356
Exactly. Which is why it has nothing in common with proper fantasy.

4E is a great tactical wargame. What it isn't, is proper fantasy.

>> No.15790396

>>15790340
I lol'd.
But yeah, I'm not a big fan of that class. They don't even make such good defenders...

>> No.15790407

>>15790312

yeah, that's why I like the 4e bladesinger more


Teleporting as their bread and butter was retarded. It should have been a Utility ability

force shields, magic counterattacks, THAT MAKES COOLER SENSE

>> No.15790418

You mean somebody who is making p&p games isn't going all the same routes as traditional fantasy? I'm offended that someone would do this. Such gall. Such unmitigated audacity. Such- Wait, I thought we wanted something different from fantasy?

>> No.15790426

the teleporting is largely why I didnt pick swordmage

>> No.15790427

>>15790407
I don't like how the bladesinger is totally CON/DEX if you're a revenant half-elf with Versatile Master.

>> No.15790442

>>15790393
Star Trek counts as proper fantasy in every literary circle on the planet and they have planet-scale teleportation that is cheap and easy. And seeing as it is older than 20 years old, it isn't just fantasy, it falls under the header of classic fantasy.

You see, the distinction between Speculative Fiction, Science Fantasy and Medieval Fantasy all fall under the header of Fantasy. Your term "Traditional" only being used by sophists who are attempting to move the proverbial goal posts by confusing the point with meaningless terminology.

>> No.15790462

>>15790418
> Such- Wait, I thought we wanted something different from fantasy?

For the most part we do. However a small handful of incredibly loud derps would just rather complain.

>> No.15790480

>>15790462
You just can't make them happy, even though 4e delivered on a LOT of fronts that people were complaining about in 3e

>> No.15790514

other than swordmage, is there a way to play a "I hit stuff with a weapon and also use magic in a pinch" types?

Like having martial at-wills, and magic restricted to Encounter/Daily/cool utilities?

'cause I don't really like having flames shoot out of my sword eeevery time it swings too. I'm fine with a full Wizard being All Arcane All th' Time, but a fighter/wizard would have his magic as a special move

>> No.15790537

>>15790514
>"I hit stuff with a weapon and also use magic in a pinch" types?

Dude, any spellcaster can just pick a sword up. Take that feat that lets you use your mainstat towards basic attacks, then cast spells. Or use a hybrid class.

>> No.15790540

>>15790462

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing Dungeons and Dragons, a FANTASY game. Perhaps you were looking to talk about Cockmonglers and Cuntgrabbers? It's right over there, filed under F for Faggotry.

>> No.15790550

>>15790540
Confirmed for 3d8 rectal damage. Roll a saving throw.

>> No.15790555

Fucking Eladrin samurai, man.

Fuckin Eladrin samurai.

>> No.15790560

>>15790540

I'm not discussing Cockmonglers and Cuntgrabbers. 2E is such overhyped bullshit with minimal returns. They fucking NERFED COCKMONGLERS, and those are in the FUCKING TITLE OF THE FUCKING GAME.

>> No.15790572

>>15790462
The problem isn't that it's not fantasy.

The problem is that it's not ANYTHING. Most board games have more narrative drive than 4E.

>> No.15790586

>>Fucking Eladrin samurai, man.

... there's a samurai class?

Or are you saying Eladrin Swordmage is samuari-like


oh fuck magic teleporting katana strikes

>> No.15790587

>>15790572

>Most board games have more narrative drive than 4E.

I haven't played 4E, but would you say it has more or less narrative drive than, say, Monopoly or Snakes and Ladders?

>> No.15790608

I got to tell you OP. I really don't like swordmages personally, but I think your argument is fairly weak. DnD, certainly 4E, is full of fairly absurd things. I find it silly that your willing suspension of disbelief stop at one class teleporting.

Warlocks, Binders, and Hexblades make pacts with devils, jerk fae, and Lovecraftian creatures. In doing so they can make weapons appear out of thin air, make people explode from the inside, shoot flames at people, and teleport all at level 1.

Warlords yell at people to heal them.

Avengers can sprout wings and have better AC than a lot of heavily armored classes.

Hunters and Rangers can shoot 9+ arrows all at once.

Roleplaying games are full of absurd things. That is why we suspend our disbelief and just have fun with them.

>> No.15790611

>>15790572
>Most board games have more narrative drive than 4E

They gave you the mechanics and left the storytelling up to the players like they should have done from the start. Diplomacy was retarded, all you had to do was fart, roll Diplomacy, and on a good roll the dragon would pay your rent at the tavern. Now that you actually have to convince anyone of anything and use your words carefully, its shit? Spoiled by video game RPGs, I guess.

>> No.15790616

What the hell are you people talking about, 'fantasy' is not the narrow thing you want to define it as, 4e obviously is a fantasy game with a fantasy setting.

>> No.15790617

You know what? Fuck you guys.

You know what's cool? Popping in and out of reality -especially as a creature that already pops in and out of reality- laying the smackdown on unsuspecting mooks while the rest of your party gnashes its teeth in frustration that they can't be as awesome as you.

You know what I play? I play a swordmage like it's a goddamn teleporting jedi.
You know what you play? Must be a shit-tier class, because you're butthurt as hell.

U Mad?

>> No.15790632

>>15790616
With items and creatures and powers that you don't find in reality? How do people not get this?

>> No.15790637

>>15790393

What the fuck is proper fantasy? Fantasy words vary setting to setting. What one person can do in one, they can't in another. That is like saying that the Abhorsen series isn't Proper goddamn Fantasy because they have good necromancers when traditional necromancers are always evil.

Proper Fantasy is some made up ideal of fantasy where all elves are tree hugging waifs, all dwarves are alcohol breathing cave dwellers, and dragons are all intelligent gold collectors, and a wizard must have a beard and a pointy hat if they want to cast magic as if it was facial hair was some form of spell component.

>> No.15790646

>>15790586
That's basically what they are, yeah. At least that's how I play them/run them as NPCs in my game. Although baka gaijin swordmages are more common than baka gaijin samurais, you still kind of have to be an eladriboo to do it. I don't make it something that's commonly taught at magical academies, and if it is taught its taught as an elective with an eladrin teacher.

>> No.15790649

>>15790587

most people who complain about that are big fans of 3e, which introduced "rules for rolling for roleplay"

they find the lack of specific mechanics for all out of combat interactions as 'omg theres no roleplaying!'

D&D4e moved back to 2e and older, where out of combat stuff was more talking with the DM and occasional roles made up on the spot.

>> No.15790665

>>15790608
By the way, avengers?

Fucking awesome class. Playing one right now, can't wait to earn my wings. FLYING SNAKEMAN WOO WOO WOO~

>> No.15790668

>>15790646
>At least that's how I play them/run them as NPCs in my game

I actually run a Hobgoblin Warlock(Fey) a lot like that. Teleporting around like crazy, messing shit up. Its great.

>> No.15790683

>>15790572
Your hyperbole makes you look like a troll, seriously. You are expressing an opinion that has no basis in the reality of the game. D&D4E has quite a bit of space in its initial core rulebooks dedicated to the establishment of an innovative pseudo-medieval fantasy/dungeon punk setting. Just because YOU don't like what is there doesn't change the fact that it is.

>> No.15790686

>>15790649

Agreed. I play and prefer 3.5 but I don't understand this whole "No Roleplay" business going on.

Want to know what happened the last time I played 4E? me and two other PC's had an hour long, in character discussion on the morality of necromancy. A wizard, paladin, and a factotum all with different view points. We didn't need some overly specific rules for that.

>> No.15790692

I don't get it. Instantenous short distance teleportation is basically flash step. It had been used for well over 20 years now in many forms of media with almost any martial arts involved.

>> No.15790705

>>15790617

I was really with you until your last line there. Damn shame. 4E is about being fucking awesome and doing awesome things, but reality or Tolkien fantasy simulation.

>>15790572

You obviously either: A) Never played 4E or B) had a really shitty DM. I say this because it is as narrative driven as any other addition of DnD. This is because the rules DON'T ever govern narrative. The DM and the players DO.

>> No.15790706

>>15790637
>and a wizard must have a beard and a pointy hat if they want to cast magic as if it was facial hair was some form of spell component.

That would be an interesting way to do things...suddenly elves would have no magic power, while dwarves would be masters of the arcane!

>> No.15790708

>>15790686
>We didn't need some overly specific rules for that.

The best part is that with as low-budget as alignment is now, you aren't bound by "Vecna said it, so its true."

>> No.15790741

I still think its one of the most hilarious things that Eladrin are specified as not having facial hair. I can imagine that the guy who is considered the most hardcore, most bad-ass, mostly manly Eladrin ever has a single tiny whisker sprouting from his chin.

>> No.15790748

>>15790741I still think its one of the most hilarious things that Eladrin are specified as not having facial hair. I can imagine that the guy who is considered the most hardcore, most bad-ass, mostly manly Eladrin ever

was named Lu Bu

>> No.15790792

My main problem with 4E is the items.
Congrats, you just killed a semidivine beast of massive power and chopped up its bones to make splint mail from, the ties being blessed hair from the Shorn Nymph Queen and leather torn from the Tarrasque Of All Worlds while it was sleeping before you legged it like a little bitch.
Once a day, you can get maybe a minute's worth of +1d6 radiant damage on attacks, and an armor bonus that you have to have to keep the math straight.
Really?

Other than that, Nightcrawlering around, sword lasers, turning into nothing, it's awwright.

>> No.15790805

>>15790792
So what you're saying is that they made magic items more readily available, but they aren't the gateway to total power that they were before. And that's bad.

>> No.15790806

>>15790705
>This is because the rules DON'T ever govern narrative. The DM and the players DO.

Without any criticism of 4e, I just want to mention how tired that argument is.

You could put "The Roleplaying Game!" after "Chess:" and use it to put Chess: TRG on the same level as D&D or Vampire or some Larp.

The rules, more specifically things like the classes and the powers they have DO mean something when it comes to the roleplay aspect of the game. A game where the fighter's description is "hit stuff" will have a different feel from one in which the rules legislate that the fighter can make 50' leaps and triple attack with his choice of elemental damage each round.

>> No.15790819

They're adding in a new swordmage in the Faerun setting book

anyone know about what it does

>> No.15790839

>>15790805
I'm saying I wish they'd gone with the "Make magic items more unique, harder to use, and rarer" as opposed to "Tax away all your money buying needed upgrades that do exactly fuckall once a day but everyone's supposed to react like they're goddamn amazing".
I'm sorry, if I get sold a ring of invisibility that works for six seconds every 24 hours, I am going to want to talk to someone's manager.

>> No.15790844

>>15790806

>Chess: TRG

Can my queen seduce the opponent's knight? How about a pawn? Oooh wait, no, I wanna nail the Bishop!

>> No.15790853

>>15790839
You could just play with inherent bonuses instead and only hand out magic items that are AMAAAAAAZING.

Such items should be the focus of the campaign though.

>> No.15790906

>>15790844
Are there any Rooks there? I wanna DO them!!!

>> No.15790946

>>15790365

Technically Discworld wizards have levels. Rincewind here doesn't even qualify for level 0.

>> No.15790950

>>15790853

>Such items should be the focus of the campaign though.

Why? In a high magic campaign wizards would be shitting magick swordes at ridiculous speeds.

>> No.15790970

>>15790950
>Why?

Because if spectacular magic items become too common they lose their specialness. Magic items are more interesting if they are hard to get.

>> No.15790972

ITT people who complain about dnd beeing silly
oh you guys

>> No.15790996

>>15790970

... this in a setting where being a high speed teleporting asshole is commonplace? Really?

>> No.15791021

>>15790996

Yes, in that setting. Where magic is pulled out of the ass of everybody, the magic items should be proportionally spectacular. Otherwise you just get "Oh, I got the Ancient Spellsword of Knightly Virtue. Meh, my normal abilities are better anyway, dump it in the cash pile, maybe we could trade it for some milk."

>> No.15791093

>>15790996

Read the full series of posts, cause if you are the guy who said "Magic items should be unique, etc. etc." you must be retarded.

You know, you can also NOT have certain classes depending on the game/setting you want to run, like Dark Sun for instance. Or you know, its like when we disallowed wujen from our games and psionics as well. I don't see how the swordmage existing completely ruins the feel of the game for you when its a completely optional thing. Especially since they really don't feel that out of place for Forgotten Realms, the setting they were introduced in.

>> No.15791107

>>15791093

what's a good alternative to swordmage for a fighter/mage then?

>> No.15791128

>>15791093
>Removing psionics from Hard Fun. Dark Sun.
>The game created to SHOWCASE psionics, as every single character in the original had a Wild Talent at the very least.

All. My. Hate.

>> No.15791129

>>15791093
>they really don't feel that out of place for Forgotten Realms

I don't think ANYTHING has been considered out of place in FR since before 3.x. But that's another discussion...

>> No.15791140

>>15791093

but I'm not that guy

>> No.15791147

>>15791093
He's not.
The inherent bonuses idea is good, I'll use it if I ever DM a 4E game.
Usually throw around Character Focus items, Utility Items, and Trinkets in other systems, though.
Character Focus items are items that characters are built around, probably get powers as the plot goes on, and do awesome and playstyle changing stuff.
Utility Items do something, aren't quite as important enough to devote character resources (Feats, skills, knacks, etc.) unless it's a class of item or something.
Trinkets are utility items except they're incredibly limited and mostly just things I toss in for shits and giggles and to see if the party can make use of them.

>> No.15791167

>>15791147
Inherent bonuses and free proficiency feats are basically the de-facto houserules for many of the 4e devs. Why they don't make these rules official is beyond me.

>> No.15791231

>>15791128

Read better, I just offered Dark Sun as a setting example. I didn't say we were playing it.

>> No.15791248

>>15791107

Hybrid fighter/wizard.

Or even multiclass fighter and wizard, depending on how much of one you want to be over the other.

Hybriding would be your best choice. You would have to take feats to get the fighter martial and armor proficiencies again, but you'll have the full array of fighter and wizard powers available to you.

>> No.15791267

>>15791248
Except you're on split scores with strength and int.
Is there any official option for trading main scores for classes, or do I just continue my dirty heathenry with con-based fighters and int-based runepriests?

>> No.15791292

>>15791267
>int-based runepriests?

Why the fuck would you even do that.

RUNE-SMITHING SHOULD NEED STRENGTH, YOU COCKSUCKER. YOU'RE SWINGING HAMMERS ONTO STONES AND ANVILS.

It's why dwarves are the best runepriests.

>> No.15791313

>>15791248

is a 16 in my two main stats decent enough to work with? I hear 4e is more forgiving but if it means I'll be whiffing everything it takes the fun out

>> No.15791328

>>15791313
16 is the bare minimum. It can work, but not very well. 18 or 20 is much better.

>> No.15791331

>>15791292
Roguish kobold traces runes on foes using blindingly fast daggerwork.
Same result.
He also kind of stole the knowledge of the runes, but...

>> No.15791339

hmm, what would I need to make this Fighter/wizard work then

neither class benefits from the other's primary

>> No.15791350

>>15791339
Take fighter|sorcerer, at least the sorc can benefit from str.

>> No.15791359

>>15791339
Fighter/Sorcerer.
Go Dragon or cosmic.
You'll NEED to be something that gets a bonus to both, but it should work out.
Ask your DM to let you apply that one dagger magic feat to heavy blades
Shoot sword lasers at people. Cackle.

>> No.15791369

>>15791339
>>15791350
Or, better yet, barbarian|sorcerer. Both have the others' primary as a secondary.

>> No.15791372

>>15791350

This fella is right. Fighter/Sorc can give you the same feel with more in sync scores.

>> No.15791407

>>15790550
Bubba did it!

>> No.15791412

>>15791369
I was angry that Thunderborn's secondary was con when I tried this exact combo.

I AM THE BLESSED OF SHOUTY DRAGON
WATCH ME YELL AT PEOPLE SO HARD THEIR HEADS EXPLODE
THEN I WILL YELL REALLY HARD AT THE GROUND TO FLY

And yes, the title was totally going in place of a surname.

>> No.15791442

>>15790514

Honestly that's I play Swordmage. You just need a little re-fluffing of the at-wills. Sword Burst as a Whirlwind Attack, Booming Blade as getting in an extra nick as they retreat, etc.

Swordmage is my favorite class though, so you might like a Fighter/Wizard thing better, I dunno.

>> No.15791446

>>15791359
>sword lasers
It's dangerous to go alone! Here, take this!

>> No.15791789

>>15791369barbarian/sorcerer

what level do barbarians get elemental raging?

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