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[ERROR] No.15578149 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

DMs, Why do (some) of you absolutely despise Point Buy systems?

>> No.15578155

Minmaxing.

>> No.15578171

It leads to mathematically correct characters with preplanned dumped stats in order to get the only ones the class cares for as high as possible.

That and I really like rolling dice for as many things as possible

>> No.15578175

>>15578155
every class has a dump stat, every class has a strong stat. The system encourages minmaxing.

>> No.15578184

>>15578155
You can minmax with rolled stats, barring rolling downn the line and keeping it. Weak argument is weak.

>> No.15578192

rolled 8, 7, 17, 4, 10, 11 = 57

Gather round, roll the dice, check what stats you got, assign them and create a character.

This way thanks to the random factor you get a more interesting situation and there are no people who play as Drizt every time.

>> No.15578199

>>15578192
>implying rolling for stats prevents Drizzt

>> No.15578200

>>15578184
This. Besides, it's reasonable to expect fighters to be stronger and dumber than wizards.

>> No.15578201

>> No.15578203

>>15578149
because some players who have vastly more knowledge of the game probably needs to held back a little

>> No.15578204

The point buy system encourages minmaxing.

Dice do not.

>> No.15578211

rolled 8, 5, 3, 10, 10, 8 = 44

>>15578192

ok, that roll sucked, but you get the general idea.

>> No.15578214

>>15578192

Rollan'

>> No.15578215

>>15578204
Minmaxing isn't inherently bad.
>>15578203
So you want to preemptively punish people who know more things, as opposed to being a reasonable person?

>> No.15578221

Personally, I dislike them because it can lead to a rollplaying game, rather than a roleplaying game, with people wanting to optimise their character from the ground up. Doesn't fit the way I run my games.

I prefer random generation, as it forces players to think a bit more about their characters. For instance, a Traveller character (seriously, that character gen system is glorious) wound up with a Dex of 3, reduced to two due to mishap, while having almost maximum endurance. Result; my generic soldier from some asteroid became a wall of a man, but who struggles to shoot straight or move quickly. As a result, his weapon of choice became high explosives.

>> No.15578222

Because players shouldn't get to play what they want, they have to play what the dice force them too.

>> No.15578224

rolled 6, 17, 14, 17, 7, 16 = 77

>>15578214

Ah, who would have known that the # didn't work here?

Anyway, rolling d18s then.

>> No.15578240

>>15578224

Glorious roll, comrade. Unlike mine.

>> No.15578246

>>15578204
Thus it encourages weighted dice.

Also random rolls may have you roll all above 15. You may roll all below 7. This means people with shitty stats must make their characters better, more minmaxing. People with higher stats can relax, thus less minmaxing.

Biggest counterpoint. What's wrong with minmaxing? I want a character that doesn't suck. Don't you?

>> No.15578249

>>15578224

Hey, I can be a 2e Paladin, cool.

>> No.15578252

I don't hate them. In fact I prefer them.

Because it enforces all the characters to be on the same level mechanically without resorting to some arbitrary mechanism to account for differing skill levels when they in fact, don't.

>> No.15578258

People hate minmaxing because they feel that fighters shouldn't fight and wizards shouldn't cast spells.
Obviously.

>> No.15578265

We usually roll all stats but they can be switched accordingly.
Like Str for human is 4d6, remove lowest and same would be for Dex, their results could be switched since they use the same roll.
This gives nice random element to the stats but still allows players to guide the attributes to their plan. We also usually allow rerolls if most stats are lower than average.

>> No.15578289

Two big reasons, for me -
First of all, these are your "natural stats". In life, you are not gifted with every attribute being the way you want it to be. But you do have a bit of control over it, which is why I like DnD's "roll 6 numbers, then pick which attributes to alot to" style.

And my second, and far more important reason, is the fact that it caters more to experienced players. I play with several new-ish players, and I don't want my other players swooping in with their min-maxed stats and dominating the entire game.

>> No.15578296

Everyone who hates minmaxing are precisely those people who can't do it.

>> No.15578318

Yes, what's wrong with point buy? Minmaxing is a weak counterargument. At least that way, people don't keep killing their characters until they reroll one with stats they want.Point buy simply lets you get a kind of character you want.

What's next? These people will want, for example in a powers bases superhero system, that players roll for their powers randomly because building with the powers you want goes against the same spirit (namely, the spirit of having fun)?

>> No.15578321

ITT: HURR MINMAXING IS BAD BOY DO I LOVE USELESS CHARACTERS FUCK THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T IGNORANT

>> No.15578335

>>15578318
Well fuck the secodn paragraph was extrremely poorly worder (spot the logic fallacy) but I can't be arsed to copypaste, delete and fix.

>> No.15578352

>>15578149
Because they prefer players not being able to play what they may want to, but what the random numbers tell them they can. Nothing like wanting a cleric, or a wizard, and having your random stat dump put a 4 in Wis or Int.

>> No.15578354

3d6 x6, place as desired.

A lot of my OSR cohorts claim allowing anything bot 3d6 in a row leads to people playing the same thing over and over again. But they're full of shit. People who will play the same thing over and over find a way no matter how the dice fall. With 3d6 arranged you at least get to build characters to some specs.

>> No.15578358

I don't mind the point buy system. It leaves me with the feeling that players dont have imbalanced stats. But it will get boring because all the stats are the same values or either hardly effective.

>> No.15578393

I couldn't care less as a GM. As a player my problem it that most of my characters ideas never seem to fit in the amount of points given, I always end up with not enough for the stats I want at a respectable level or a surplus that has to be wasted on things I will never use.

>> No.15578410

I actually prefer pointbuy if the point pool is a proper size as to not allow minmaxing and general faggotry.

>> No.15578421

this might just be my group but point buy takes us so much longer than priority or dice roll systems we've used.

>> No.15578431

>>15578421
Pretty sure that's just your group. Sometimes simple math is HARD.

>> No.15578440

>>15578410
>I actually prefer pointbuy if the point pool is a proper size as to not allow minmaxing and general faggotry.
So you have a 0 point point buy?

>> No.15578442

>>15578410
>if the point pool is a proper size as to not allow minmaxing

You can optimize literally anything. You can have a 3 point buy, and there will be an optimal build for those character generation rules.

>> No.15578460

I personally like arrays, since they prevent major minmaxing, the characters are fairly balanced and even noobs can't fuck up a character too badly when using an array.

>> No.15578463

It's because in my experience approaching a game with a precise idea of a character which you then proceed to implement precisely can be KIND OF fun, but in the end is really more a matter of wish fulfillment than anything else. Forcing someone to randomly create a character and then create that character allows the character to develop in this very interesting, organic fashion that allows the player to "discover" who they're playing and make the best of it. When I play point-buy games, I never come to the table with anything more fleshed out than a race-class combo and general build to start out with, and then I proceed to fill in more as the game proceeds and the character takes a more corporeal form.

Essentially, I like random gen because it gives you the character you never knew you wanted.

>> No.15578466

I don't like it if I'm DMing for people who rollplay.
Luckily most of my players build their characters stats to represent the character, not what's best.

>> No.15578479

rolled 17, 12, 18, 14, 1, 18 = 80

Some GM's have to be lolsorandum and have never had to deal with a game where every player except one has multiple 18's. And that lone guy's best stat is 14.

I like point buy because I don't have to listen to grognards bitching when I either make everyone reroll or have that guy who is grossly underpowered reroll his stats. point buy is straightforward enough that I can explain it to my math-challenged wife in 5 minutes. About the same amount of time it takes to explain "roll 4d6 drop the lowest and add them together" oddly enough.

lets see how bad my stats are!

>> No.15578496

>>15578463
So your argument against point buy is that you flesh out your character as you go, and your defense for random is that you...flesh out your character as you go?

I just...huh...

In any event, I'm not sure you're looking at things from the right perspective if you think stats are what always define a characters personality.

>> No.15578500

>>15578466
God forbid adventurers be competent, right?

>> No.15578504

>>15578463

>It's because in my experience approaching a game with a precise idea of a character which you then proceed to implement precisely can be KIND OF fun, but in the end is really more a matter of wish fulfillment than anything else.

Eh, I'm there to tell a story. I point-buy because I have a specific guy in mind. The fun comes from what the GM serves up. I prefer to use random stuff when coming up with backstories and other details.

>> No.15578511

Why is minmaxing so bad again?

>> No.15578523

>>15578431
Well, some people use some incredibly retarded point buy weighting schemes.

One I encountered was described only. But equated to this table that I made myself to make it easier to handle:

6 = free
7 = 1 point
8 = 3 points
9 = 6 points
10 = 10 points
11 = 15 points
12 = 21 points
13 = 28 points
14 = 36 points
15 = 45 points
16 = 55 points
17 = 66 points
18 = 78 points
19 = 91 points

And we were given a pool of 220 points to spread across 7 stats (the normal 6 + comeliness). With a bonus of +20 points in the stats that your race had a bonus in, and -10 in the stats thy had a penalty in.

Shit like that is just retarded. But some DMs love it.

>> No.15578554

Rolling dice is fun.

>> No.15578555

>>15578511

It's not. People hate it because they can't do it well or at all. It doesn't require minmaxing to ruin a game for everybody and a minmaxed character doesn't auto ruin the game either. It just means that the character is actually good at what he does. Competence is a sin.

>>15578479
I can totally work with those stats. Even the 1! I expected to get a bunch of 12's, but 2 18's and a 17? Gygax hold me, I'm making the stupidest paladin EVER.

>> No.15578558

>>15578523
Holy Hell, every character is going to have a 6 COM with that system. Which I do approve of since COM was a stupid unnecessary addition.

What shocks me the most is that if you have COM, it's 1st Ed AD&D, which IN THE PLAYERS HANDBOOK states that any character with less than two 16's should be REROLLED. That point buy chart means that, to have what the creators of the game considered as a basic requirement, you're using 110 of your points right off the bat.

>> No.15578562

>>15578500
competense in an area is just a character trait just as a lame foot, a fear for the dark or a extra gold coin hidden in the characters boot is, just make shure it gives the character some character or it's just a numerical statistic and a waste, as it's not about success, it's about the story of the characters experiences (no matter good or bad).

>> No.15578578

>>15578555
>Competence is a sin

You're an idiot.
It comes down to if the min-maxers in the group are willing to help the noobs. If not, then min-maxing is bad. If yes, then min-maxing is fucking awesome and should be stretched to the limits the system can handle.

>> No.15578585

I've never found the difference to be that great, so I can do both. I prefer rolling however.

>> No.15578597

>>15578558
It wasn't AD&D. It was a hack of 3.5.

>> No.15578598

>15578511
>Why is minmaxing so bad again?
Same reason a level 10 PC or two in a pack of level 5s can be.

>> No.15578600

>>15578578
You must have missed the rest of what that guy said when you quotemined his sarcastic comment and nothing else.

>> No.15578608

>>15578562

It certainly helps the illusion of competence if the character actually is.

>> No.15578612

Just play BRP. No class-level-progression bullshittery.

>> No.15578615

>>15578600
Sarcasm doesn't work in text, he's still an idiot for coming at the legitimate question with such a retarded answer.

>> No.15578617

>>15578597
Comeliness in 3.5?

Err, yeah...okay. That's the sort of thing that makes you tell the GM to share his fucking stash, because it's some good shit.

Forgetting the two 16's then, you still end up with characters who are pretty much forced to be well below average in most stats just to have a stat or two that are somewhat ABOVE average. Basically, instead of playing heroic characters, you're forced to play the farmer who picked up his pitchfork and decided to be a fighter one day.

>> No.15578622

A good DM would find a way around minmaxing.

>> No.15578631

>>15578496

Way to miss what I was saying.

The point I was making was that while I flesh out my character as I go with point-buy, a lot of people come to the table with some precise idea of every little thing about their character and then try to put that into practice, which is just wish fulfillment. While I personally take the "DISCOVERY" road with point-buy, I find it's easier and more exciting to discover a character via random gen than via point-buy.

>> No.15578649

>>15578617
Your example character is all 9's or lower in everything. His pointbuy, while retarded, did make characters that were better than that.

I remember him saying that it forced player to build their characters to feel more oldschool in their usefulness.

>> No.15578651

>>15578608
come up with a character concept (along with the GM and possibly even fellow players) and then along with the GM you stat it up, disreguarding the rules where they hinder you to fullfill the agreed up on concept, along with the GM.

that's how we do it. never let the rules hinder you (that's teh GM's job).

>> No.15578657

>>15578578

Really? The min-maxing is irrelevant. The PLAYERS are the issue. A bad player will ruin the game no matter what he does. A good player can min-max and everybody is happy. To attack min-maxing is basically saying "competence is a sin".

How is that hard to understand?

>> No.15578659

>Point buy system is superiour system

And I completely stand for it, as I, if it feels neccesary, give other limits to the players; mind you I don't play DnD, but if I want low-power, I cap the attribute levels; if I want high-powered, I remove all limits, etc. But for me, the character is far more important than the stats surrounding them, so everything for the story.

>> No.15578667

>>15578622
balance really means nothing in a RPG. it's only DnD that cling to it with an obsessions.

>> No.15578670

Because they dont like when you can just play the character concept you want, but instead always should play what the dice force on you.

>> No.15578682

I prefer rolling stats because if you've rolled good stats, you're sailing free, if you're rolled okay stats, it's a fun challenge to build that in to a good character. If you roll poor stats 99% of DMs will allow a re-roll.
I've only used point buy a few times, but everyone in the party had exactly the same stat block, just all assigned differently and that took some of the individuality out of it. Mind you, it was also fourth edition and we were all trying to do the same thing (Read: Everything).

>> No.15578684

I don't roll or buy, I just write down what I want and what suits the character concept I have.

>> No.15578688

Personally, I like point buy because it's fairer. I don't want to have stats that are mostly 10s an 12s, then sit down next to a motherfucker who has 18s and 16s. You all know a person like that: he can roll with YOUR dice on a solid surface while everybody watches him just let the dice roll out of his hand and he STILL gets 18 18 17 18 19 somehow 18.

The thing I don't like about point buy is that it usually favors generalization over specialization, the idea being that an 18 strength and a 10 dex is more useful than a 14 strength and a 14 dex. And while that is absolutely 100% true it also makes PB a chore to use and not really much fun. I like having characters with 18s. Besides, point buy almost universally creates weaker characters on average since most point buy systems I've seen seem to be balanced against 3d6 for some insane reason. Nobody I've ever met plays 3d6 anymore. Everybody plays either 4d6 reroll 1s drop lowest, or 2d6+6 reroll 1s.

>> No.15578699

>>15578667
4E cares about role protection.
And AD&D cared about role protection.
3.shit and 3.P care about balance, as they use the same rules for adversaries as heroes. Any game that does that needs to worry about balance. And does.

>> No.15578701

>>15578149


Because it makes my powergamers mad.

U mad?

>> No.15578706

>>15578667

More specifically, it's WOTC's editions that have to worry about balance. TSR's editions were unbalanced, sure, but the systems were designed in such a way that the lack of balance was just sort of mildly annoying rather than symptomatic of a broken game. 3.5 was unbalanced but had a system that demanded balance, so when the content failed to deliver it caused problems. 4E delivered the balance that the system demanded, but now the question is whether that balance was really worth demanding in the first place.

Anyway, 2e for the win.

>> No.15578721

>>15578699
encounter balance, loot achivement balance, balance.. balance.. balance.. horrible level progression system. 4e even more so with its uses per day/encounter and such.

>> No.15578724

I dont hate Point buy myself, I just prefer rolled stats.

Makes the character just that little bit more unpredictable.
I mean, if one of my players rolls horrifically badly, ill let them go again, and if one rolls spectacularly well, ill probably ask them to go again, unless I know they wont abuse it.

Mostly i like them because i nearly always have at least one new group member who doesnt quite understand everything yet, and so rolling the stats gives them something to work from when they're not knowledgeable enough to point-buy effectively.
And of course, if everyone else has deliberately optimised, the new guy is fucked. So, i try to get everyone to roll for stats.
I guess if i ever meet someone who hates it, ill let them pointbuy, but keep a very close eye on their minmax tendencies.

>> No.15578725

>>15578706
4E doesn't really care about balance as much as some people seem to think. Unless, by balance, you mean Role Protection - i.e. making sure characters are the best at doing their jobs without marginalizing the usefulness of other characters without the same job.

>> No.15578726

>>15578211
That rolling makes suck characters?

>> No.15578737

>>15578688
I usually roll something like that during character creation with everyone watching, ect. Last time I rolled i got 3 18s, 1 17, 1 16, and a 12.

Typically, I roll very well for stats and rarely roll well again in the game. "Roll to hit." "Does an *sigh* 8 hit?" I've never rolled a nat 20 on anything but attacking undead and constructs.

>> No.15578743

I like the way that instead of playing COCK ON TABLE POWERGAME, min/maxxers always help out other players by suggesting a useful tweak or two that improves the character's stats without changing the concept or turning it into a grindbuild.

Oh wait, most don't.

>> No.15578744

>>15578726
>>15578726
He's rolling a d20 each. When you roll 3d6 or even 4d6-L you get much more manageable outcomes.

>> No.15578755

>>15578688

Add more points to the cap. But yea, point buy is weaker then high dice rolls, but stronger than poor dice rolls. It's designed to ensure that everyone has slightly above average characters (or ultra specialized ones) but won't let you get away with multiple 18's.

It's mostly a preference thing on how much variety you like in your groups stats. I like them being closer together so that when I design an encounter I don't have to go "oh shit wait, x has the worst stats I've ever seen, I need to tone this down...shit no I can't do that, y's stats are through the fucking roof AND y knows his way around the rulebook. Maybe I should make x and y switch character sheets."

Point Buy doesn't solve the issue of players that can't figure out the rules though. I'm going to try yelling next game. That'll learn em.

>> No.15578778

>>15578743
if you have top-tier minmaxer who are willing to help out the other players, the system will move so fucking smoothly. Any and all problems that happen will be dice-based, DM-dickery or player error. Exactly how the game is supposed to be played. One player accidentally fucking themself into a terrible character is never good for a game.

>> No.15578814

>>15578622
aye

if everything comes down to combat in the end, yeah

the DM should utilize everyone's strengths and weaknesses, i.e., have them come upon a pack of dire cave bears:

>fighter attacks, everyone dies
-OR-
>ranger parlays with the bears, translates for party diplomat, fighter intimidates them from distance, wizard casts charisma buff on ranger (has to use silent spell to not freak out the bears)

A good DM gets everyone involved and throws tons of stuff at a party, making a minmaxer great at a situation he's proficient in, but shitty at everything else.

>> No.15578818

I'll give it too you straight. There is very little difference between a 10 and a 16 in my experience. The only class that really needs a high stat are casters. I have learned however that players don't feel this is true. When you need a 15 on a 20 sided die a +2 makes all the difference aparently. I don't like pointbuy because if you don't wipe your players asses most screw it up. I don't like rolling because those chumps that like to roll their characters by themselves always cheat. So I have a standard array : 18 18 18 14 12 10. If you don't like it you can roll in front of me. These scores have not ruined the power level of my games, nor have they stiffles character creation be not providing a roleplaya 3 in any stat. You can minmax, it doesn't matter, stat wise everyone is on the same footing as long as they don't do something retarded.

>> No.15578829

>>15578743
>>15578778
My DM is a god tier minmaxer. This means he knows 3.5 through and through and could break it with his pinky if he wanted, but he doesn't because it's not fun. He does, however, always give advice on character building, and every single NPC of his (even the healer) has a Nightmare Mode where they can kick the entire party's ass without trying if you provoke them.

And no, he didn't minmax those NPCs even a bit. He just uses cleverly what they do have.

>> No.15578833

I like point buy systems.

>> No.15578839

>>15578818
Thats supposed to be 18 16 16
No way I'm giving 3 18s. It shouldn't make a difference, but I like to have only one 18-20 for level 1s generally

>> No.15578840

>>15578829
AKA DM fiat.

>> No.15578852

>>15578743

Sure they do. You're thinking of the guys who go online and get a specific build. They have no idea how it works, they're just mimicking what somebody else made. They won't help because they can't help. They have no clue how the system works, they're just going to flog it to get their jollies.

Stop blaming min-maxing for shitty players.

>> No.15578855

>>15578840
They still abide to the rules. He doesn't cheat.

>> No.15578870

>>15578818

a +3 bonus is an increase of 15% chance of success.

I think you are a DM who cannot into math.

>> No.15578882

>>15578555
>Competence is a sin.
I don't know about you, but I have never played in a game entirely comprised of seasoned players.
It's your responsibility as an experienced player (and someone who is not an utter shower of shit) to make a character that doesn't dwarf the other players in screentime or ability.

Competence is not a sin, but the system is just the medium by which you can all be part of a story. Why make it into a pissing contest? You cannot "win" it simply by being extra crunchy, and depending on the GM could screw yourself over by earning his ire, making life way more difficult for him to keep everyone happy.

A mechanically feeble character still has the potential to be interesting, deep and fun to RP, whereas every minmaxed character I have ever seen has been a confused mary-sue mishmash in a desperate attempt to explain away the weird combinations of prestige classes etc.
To care all that much much about just how good you are at murderizing is to miss the point anyway.

>> No.15578932

I prefer to role, it makes more realistic characters. For example, Ajax is a paladin in my group and even with the rolled numbers all of his stats are average to above average. 16 being the highest number.

Lily is yet another character in the group and her stats range from 6 in Charisma to 20 (thank to racial bonus) in Wisdom and 18 in Intelligience.

When all stats are added, Ajax is superior to Lily even with with her extraordinary stats in three catagories when it all is done and over with.

>> No.15578951

I had a player ask to reroll a 14 the other day.

>> No.15578967

>>15578932
Lily also has an 8 and a 10 in there.

Ajax has 2 15s, 2 13's, and an 11.

>> No.15578970

This is why I prefer 2e. All the actual choices the player has to make are in-character choices. The system makes most of the mechanical ones for you, so when your fighter hits level 9 he isn't thinking "do I want a feat that boosts my AC, or one that boosts my damage?" but he is instead thinking "do I want to build my castle in the forest or the mountain?"

>> No.15578974

>>15578951
What, was he too powerful?

>> No.15578982

rolled 2, 4, 3, 6, 4, 5, 2, 3, 1, 3, 5, 5, 1, 6, 3, 5, 3, 2 = 63

I play AD&D, and I consider getting 14 on a stat to be a high score, being quite happy and rejoicing about it. Personally, I wouldn't change place with you if I could.

>> No.15578983

>>15578951
>I had a player ask to reroll a 14 the other day.

ALL OF MY RAGE

>> No.15578989

>>15578970
that's why i prefer BRP, no fucking level progression, it's all related to the roleplaying (even most of your skill raises are!).

>> No.15578991

rolled 3, 1, 4, 6, 1, 6, 5, 6, 1, 2, 5, 2, 2, 4, 5, 4, 2, 3 = 62

>>15578982
Hmm.

STR 9, DEX 15, CON 6, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 10

Woohoo, thief/mage is go!

>> No.15579003

>>15578882

I see where you're coming from, but in most games, the mechanically feeble character is going to spend the entire game smashing his head against the system. The player may be roleplaying his heart out, but at any point where he interacts with the mechanics it's going to fail.

I'd say, it's more my responsibility as an experienced player to help him build a character that does what he wants but won't have such a hard time with the mechanics. Getting a great idea stuck because they didn't understand the rules makes people drop out of games.

Maybe I just have too broad a definition of min-maxing. The guy with 6 prestige classes with 2 levels each is a min-maxer for sure. But so is the guy who picked up a masterwork skill focus and some skill synergies so that he can bluff real good.

>> No.15579004

>>15578983
And You told him "yes, but only once." Right?

>> No.15579008

Personally, I think point-buy is a great idea for other people. The problem arises when I have to use it.

I'm not particularly good at optimization. In my experience, those who are are generally the guys that favor point-buy so they have control over what's going on. My luck is good, though, and when I roll for attributes I'm usually pleased with the results.

I'll do point-buy if the DM insists, of course, but be prepared to help me figure out how it works.

>> No.15579015

>People bring life argument in about why rolling stats is superior.
>No version of D&D can simulate anything other than playing a game of D&D.
>For the vast majority of you no real life simulating ideas such as carrying rules, read carrying not fucking weight there is a difference to how you carry a dozen longsword and a gold frame door than some nebulous idea of weight that perfectly fits in your backpack. Long short your characters have superman lifting forcefields.
And you still cling to "well it happens in real life".

>> No.15579034

Anyone who thinks rolling for stats is better than point buy is, to put it gently, retarded. All rolling for stats does is unbalance the party and restrict what people would like to play. If you as a GM can't put a handle on power gamers or the like, then you're a failure.

>> No.15579041

>>15578983
I do worse, I play my characters like they know their strengths. When I don't get one that has decent rolls I'll play him. He's just going to leave the party when shit bets tough cause he knows he's not the best around. If the DM tries to trap him in situations I just hand him the sheet and say "welp he's fucked". If I shouldn't give a shit about my character and want to be something more than a masocist play thing I'm doing it on my own terms.

>> No.15579044

>>15579003

Depends on the game. 3.5 has your stats affect fucking everything pretty significantly so that a slight increase to a stat causes sweeping changes across your whole character sheet. 4E does the same.

Now look at 2e, where high scores help only a bit and low scores hurt only a bit and most stuff is determined by your class and level instead. About the only classes that really NEED to have high primary stats are Mages and Clerics, because for Clerics you need some good WIS or your spells fizzle and for Mages you need good INT or your spellbook is too small. Even then, average INT or WIS only comes back to bite a Mage or Cleric when he starts to get to pretty high levels, and they level SLOW compared to their d20 counterparts, so it's not too bad really.

>> No.15579053

Because LIFE SUCKS

and THEN YOU DIE

>> No.15579054

>>15578932
And yet Lily will probably get better mileage out of her few extraordinary stats than Ajax will from his moderately high ones. Ajax may even have difficulty staying useful as the game progresses.

>> No.15579061

>>15579034
But it makes the character more real you flaming queen. Why can't idiots like you understand this instead of producing a line of clones with class templates on them! Worse than that you play them the go damn same way, they don't even have quirks cause you base it around the stat they dump.

>> No.15579067

Let's all just roll stats now!

>> No.15579074

rolled 3, 6, 2, 2, 4, 4, 3, 4, 6, 4, 4, 6, 3, 2, 1, 2, 4, 1 = 61

hm...

>> No.15579079

>>15579061
The problem with your argument is that you're assuming the players are all unbearable manchildren. While this may be true for your group, the group I run with has never once had a problem with minmaxing, power gaming, or anything of that ilk. Not once has there been a clone stamp character. And we use point buy exclusively.

Your shitty group doesn't speak for everyone, broseph.

>> No.15579092

>>15578870
>a +3 bonus is an increase of 15% chance of success
My character has a 1 in 20 chance of succeeding at a Herposting skillcheck. If he had an extra +3 modifier, he would have a 4 in 20 chance of succeeding. That is a 300% increase in chance of success, not 15%.

>> No.15579099

>>15579092
...You don't know how d20 works, do you?

>> No.15579116

>>15579034
Point buy isn't bad... It just isn't good either. Most rolls lead to balanced characters in my game, save for Lily. Lily's a avenger who only cares about dealing damage in a party without a wizard.

>> No.15579122

>>15579092

What we mean is a 15-point percentage increase, duh. Your chance used to be 5%. Now it's 20%. You are indeed 4 times more likely, so yes it's a 300% increase, but what we mean with these percentages is your existing odds of success versus what they can become.

>> No.15579145

>>15579116
It's far better than rolling. Any and all cries of "Power game" or "Unrealistic characters" is user error. It's not as if being able to control how the stats play out for your character forces you to be as cheesy as possible.

And if that's not enough for you, I'd like you to consider why the vast majority of RPGs nowadays use point buy systems instead of rolling for stats.

>> No.15579168

first experience with rollin' for stats, got two 18's. fuck yeah

>> No.15579169

>>15579099
The character goes from succeeding only on a 20 to succeeding on a 17, 18, 19 or 20. That changes it from a 5% chance to succeed to a 20% chance to succeed. 20 is 4 times more than 5, or in other words a 300% increase in success rates.

>> No.15579170

>>15578149
>Point Buy systems
is there any other kind?

>> No.15579177

My GM hates rolling, because he's a cockgargler, then insists on doing the lowest pointbuy he can get away with.
Fuck point buy.

>> No.15579188

I prefer randomized stats. In fact, in our most recent game, DM told us he'd roll several percentiles throughout creation to decide if we got anything extra. First was for bonus stat points. second was for items, third was for level 1-3. Me and his DMPC got level 3, I got a +2 to 2 different stats and a 1500 gold item. Our Wujen got Level 1, one +2 to one stat, and an extremely expensive item. He gave him a Ring of Commanding Fire (200,000) gold, but sadly, the condition for it to activate hasn't been met.

>> No.15579204

I use point buy type systems because that way players can have characters ready to go, giving us more time to play in the first session (and any subsequent sessions where players are re-rolling). If I were to use a roll system, I'd roll once and give all the players an array of stats to use.

Then again, I mostly play WoD so it's a moot point anyway.

>> No.15579229

>>15578855
>cheating
>DM

Nothing a DM does is considered cheating. It may bee dumb, but it is never cheating.

>> No.15579239

rolled 2, 1, 1 + 3 = 7

My friend got triple 18s rolling for a character once...it was so fucking glorious.

>> No.15579245

>>15579204
> I mostly play WoD so I don't have good taste anyway.

FTFY

>> No.15579253

>>15579229
No shit it isn't considered cheating. The GM is the world. They can do whatever the fuck they want to and it's completely okay.

>> No.15579256

rolled 5, 4, 6 + 3 = 18

...c'mon Paladin! I didn't pick human just to get stuck with Warrior!

>> No.15579269

>>15579253
>and it's completely okay.

Not always. It may not be cheating, but bullshit faggotry is still bullshit faggotry.

>> No.15579273

>>15579116
...But an Avenger can't really do anything else.

>> No.15579274

rolled 3, 5, 5, 2, 4, 5, 1, 1, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1, 4, 1, 4, 5, 1 = 52

Let's try this again. Give me some good ones!

Hey, we gonna play anything with these?

>> No.15579283

rolled 4, 1, 2, 5, 6, 3, 2, 1, 6, 4, 6, 3, 2, 1, 6, 6, 1, 1 = 60

STR 13, DEX 11, CON 5, INT 7, WIS 6, CHA 10

Pansy fighter, I suppose.

>> No.15579300

>>15579283
Strength 13? Thats a +5% XP bonus. Don't worry about it.

>> No.15579315

rolled 1, 5, 5, 5, 3, 6, 1, 4, 3, 2, 6, 1, 6, 6, 5, 2, 3, 1 = 65

>>15579300
Huh, you going with OD&D? I was thinking of AD&D with it, but ehh. OD&D works too, I've never tried that one.

>> No.15579316

>>15579204
>>15579245

WoD has one of the best character creation systems. You can actually pick your character's stats, rather than gamble them away like in d&d. The only downside being that you have to roll a bucketful of dice for everything.

Wait... which WoD are we talking about?

>> No.15579318

How about fun story time involving stats?

I've played a round of DH recently, the game where you damn near roll everything. So I end up with scum who has low agility and will power. The GM said this was an investigation heavy game and that we're more likely to get fucked over by insanity or corruption than by stats. End up in one fight encounter in a shady place looking for information and have to burn fate, because I had low dodge due to agility. Get to the part where we roll for insanity and fail so badly I have to roll to stave off fear of something horrible showing up. Fail horribly fall unconscious, some others failed and rolled shit that only got . The thing releases fucked up dogs who then maul my character burning another fate point for them to you know maul it and move onto the people who can actually run. Then we can't figure out shit on why he should survive considering the thing likes sacrificing people. So dead character. Roll up another one, an arbiter I have no fucking clue how to play with it at least I rolled above average on will power this time. Though rolled 1 fucking fate point. Not that this helped as it was the next session that another failed fear roll left me stunned long enough for the situation to call for a burn and lost him next session. One other player had burned all their fate and such by this point but the other two had all their starting, just got a look at the sheets and was pretty much high WP roll on one and high agility on the other that I could attribute to that, as seemingly those are the only two stats that matter unless you're playing a kick down the door and fire at the bad guys game.

Fuck you text to long field.

>> No.15579320

>>15579145

>I'd like you to consider why the vast majority of RPGs nowadays use point buy systems instead of rolling for stats.

Because the clientele has changed so dramatically since the (premature imo) demise of 2e and the rise of 3.x.

Also because different approaches work for different systems. West End D6, for instance, was always totally planned generation, no randomness, and the way D6 works is such that randomness really wouldn't well for it (it works like GURPS or WoD in a lot of ways, in other words). When you're dealing with a HIGH ADVENTURE style game along the lines of D&D, though, random gen starts to work better, particularly if you abstract to the degree D&D does.

Now, as for the issue with D6, WoD, GURPS, Reve et al.: While they play well and can be fun, the instinct when faced with a completely planned chargen system is to develop what amounts to essentially a forum RP character (assuming you aren't some kind of hypercompetitive powergamer) and then play that, which I've found all too often means you end up with a character you THINK you want or feel like you're SUPPOSED to want, but is not necessarily the right character for you. Rolling your character forces you, the player, to overcome adversity right from the start in defining and designing your character, and he could end up going in a direction completely different from what you had in mind when you sat down at the table. The rolled character experiences character growth and development from minute one, and part of this is because you aren't already invested in any one aspect of him. Improvisation begets fun. Showing up with "this is who I want to play and I'm not playing anything different" does not.

When a player comes to my table for 2e chargen, I always tell him ahead of time to think of several very general ideas of characters he might like to play, but not to get attached to any single one of them. If he complies, the results can be pretty damn cool.

>> No.15579326

>>15579269

So, because some GMs are shitty, games should be made in such a way that the GM doesn't have full control/creative freedom to run their game the way they want to?

People like you are the cancer that's killing the hobby.

>> No.15579329

>>15579318
So roll another character get a cleric, no fucking clue what to do with him. No clue why he was there beyond GM having to force him into the story. On some level no clue why I was continuing to play the game. I was practically a dice zombie at that point as I just didn't care anymore as I had lost all connection to the game over 4 sessions and was there as they needed a seat filled.

I do know it made me dislike random rolling for no other reason that to give your character an "organic" feel cause I might have been able to drum up some care if I got to make a character who could do more than die and suffer and accept it more as I made it.

>> No.15579339

>>15579315
Hmm. STR 11, DEX 14, CON 8, INT 9, WIS 17, CHA 6

Wow, look at that wisdom! Could make a gnomish cleric/thief out of this one. Or even a kobold.

By the way, the notion that ability scores in AD&D don't matter much is not as true as most people think. Sure, you don't get bonuses until on higher rolls, and penalties only on very low ones, but there are still plenty of ability rolls and proficiency checks, on which the difference between 9 and 14 is still fairly large.

>> No.15579357

>>15579315

OD&D has only Fighter, Mage, and Cleric, and the only things that STR, INT, and WIS actually do is grant XP bonuses to their related class (INT also gives you extra languages). Also, every weapon does d6, no exceptions.

>> No.15579381

>>15579357
Yeah. I said that I haven't tried OD&D, but I have given the rules a look.

That said, the 14 DEX and 17 WIS I rolled later makes me think of a cleric/thief, which I don't think is possible on OD&D, so I think I'll pass.

>> No.15579388

I couldn't help myself.

>> No.15579395

>>15579329

>I might have been able to drum up some care if I got to make a character who could do more than die and suffer and accept it more as I made it.

You were playing Dark Heresy. Dying horrifically/hilariously is what you do in Dark Heresy.

>> No.15579438

>>15579395
I was told it wasn't going to be a meat grinder and he effectively avoided making it that. More investigation and hazard things though the times combat came about was asking too much or finding the actual bits of the horrific cult around. Bad starting rolls with another bad roll in the game means death it seems no matter what you do.

>> No.15579467

My group uses the "point allocation" system.

You get a bunch of stats, you allocate them how you like. you can't mix max like point buy (because all stats are pretty middle of the road, nothing too good, nothing too bad), but it removed the random factor of dice rolling, that makes one guy awesome, and everyone else terrible.

>> No.15579485

>>15579381

Thief didn't get added until the Greyhawk supplement for OD&D. Dexterity DOES give you a to-hit bonus on ranged attacks, though; be an archer cleric. You're shooting at +1 to hit (the most Dexterity can give you at that) and you're getting +10% on XP. Human archer Cleric go.

>> No.15579512

>>15579438

"It's not going to be a meat grinder" from someone DMing Dark Heresy is about the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. Your fault for believing him.

>> No.15579514

rolling

>> No.15579630

>People rolling 6d18 instead of 18d6

The difference is huge, you know. Putting 1d18 on each stat, instead of 3d6, has each ability score be entirely as likely to get as the rest, having them go all over the place instead of centering somewhere around the middle with a couple good rolls and a couple bad ones and such. You shouldn't do it.

Besides, there are no d18s.

>> No.15579738

>>15579630
>Besides, there are no d18s.
But yeah, might be a hassle to find one.

>> No.15579792

rolled 6, 1, 4, 3, 2, 5, 2, 4, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 4, 2, 4, 3, 4 = 59

LETS DO IT

>> No.15579813

>>15579792

11, 10, 10, 9, 8, 11

COMMONER GO!

>> No.15579878

>>15579054
Mostly in the roleplaying checks, yes. Her strength is below average, and great wisdom and great constitution don't make break the game when Ajax still has 2 more hit points than Lily, and that gulf gets bigger with every level as Lily has a class with +5 HP and Ajax gains +6 per level and can wear far heavier armor than Lily... (Lily can only wear cloth armor).

>> No.15580200

>>15579630
what game requires 18 d6's? seems bad

>> No.15580272

>>15580200
Well, generally it's used for DnD, but you don't roll them all at once. Just 3d6 for each stat, or sometimes 4d6 minus the lowest roll.

>> No.15580300

>>15579630
You just roll 1d4+(1d4-1)*4. Don't tell me you don't know how to roll a 1d108 either.

>> No.15580310

>>15580272
>4d6 minus the lowest roll.
AKA pussy rolls, Might as well go to fucking point buy for min max bullshit then.

>> No.15581963

>>15580300
Wouldn't that be a d16?

>> No.15582159

>DMs, Why do (some) of you absolutely despise Point Buy systems?

I feel that the point buy system doesn't allow for heroic enough characters, or rather characters who min max so they are AMAZING at combat (where the game breaks the most) and shit at everything else.

I always give my players this array (before racials):

18 16 14 13 12 10

At the end of the day I could give a fuck about +4 vs. +3, if it means extra hit points I can hit them harder, if it's more damage, bosses can hit harder. And you know what? They LOVE their characters, and most of the time they don't pump the 16 to an 18, just spread out their stats so they're amazing.

>> No.15582817

Give me 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 8 in a random order. Best of both worlds, motherfucker.

>> No.15583921

I once had a player go berserk when I told her character generation was 15 point buy for a Pathfinder game. She started ranting and raving on how I was intentionally making it hard for the players, and that I was turning the game into WoW and that she'd only have one good stat above 18... Blah, blah, blah.

Not having an ability score above 17 doesn't sit well with players who are used to high power fantasy games and the though of having a stat below 10 is appalling.

Despite the fact we were going to be playing a Paizo adventure path that was balanced for a 4 person, 15 point buy generated party.

Back in 2nd edition you were lucky to have a stat above 16, a Flat an array of scores between 8 and 10 was and is still considered human average in the game, and the PCs were only a step above with a couple scores above 12-13 and one or two a below average stats. But after 3.x players wanted to be progressively more powerful and powerful. Suddenly you're expected to have at least one stat 18 or above and one or two secondary ability scores 14 or above.

>> No.15583955

I love point-buy systems. If I have a concept for a character, I want to be allowed to play it properly. Fuck being screwed over by the dice.

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