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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.15563453 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pick a game that you like. List it's pros, then list it's cons. And don't try to weasel your way out of it's cons by making a stupid "It's so good that people hate it" argument. Admitting that your preferences have bad aspects not only shows maturity but it shows an analytical thought-process and true understanding of the game's mechanics.

FOR EXAMPLE!

Mutants and Masterminds
Pros: Fun, flexible superhero system that can cover a wide range of topics. It's d20 system is good for weighing people off DnD while keeping the territory familiar.
Cons: Has several balancing issues, scales terribly and also has some heavy requirements (having a good defence for everything is practically required), it's too easy for the health system to bell curve and have tanks get one-shot while people with little to no toughness survive a tank shot at full force.

>> No.15563485

Pathfinder
Pros: updated version of the "new classic" of D&D. Basically a game of fantasy archetypes, easily models high-fantasy games, and is possible to make some really amazing character concepts.
Cons: magic always wins, and if you don't use magic as a character, you will always be weaker. Also, too many rules minutiae at some points of combat. Clever character builders (theoretical optimizers) can create things than cannot be beaten/will one-shot anything

>> No.15564378

Fantasy Craft
Pros: It's like DnD 3.5, but fixed! Only they did it harder than Pathfinder! They tore the game down to the chassis and rebuilt the engine entirely. There are still feats, skills, races, classes, etc, but they've all been retweaked and rebalanced. Being a fighter is mechanically interesting and full of options! Being a social character doesn't preclude you from assisting in combat! Magic is entirely optional and not overpowered!
Cons: Game is extremely heavy on crunch, and applies 3.5's rules-heavy-combat approach to every other element of the game. Not everyone wants to have rules that cover what they eat for lunch. Open-ended NPC and monster creation system puts a lot of work on the GM. HP pools get bloated at higher levels and combat between PCs and special (non-mook) NPCs tends to drag on.

>> No.15564395

This implies all games are equally terrible, when really a game should only be judged in how it fails to support what it intends to.

>> No.15564399

oWoD Mage
Character creation is really flexible and easy. Great for beginners.

Making over powered characters is pretty easy.
White wolf wrote it's fluff. SO NINETIES.

>> No.15564469

Anima
Pros: Really just ridiculous Dragon Ball Z/Final Fantasy style fucking shit up is possible in this game. Plus, it's pretty.

Cons: Tends to be rules-dense, with them occasionally cutting out on you when you least expect it. Some stuff will likely NEVER be expanded upon.

>> No.15564507

>>15564395
>>This implies all games are equally terrible, when really a game should only be judged in how it fails to support what it intends to.
I think I agree with this statement? The games rules are there to enable you in playing pretend, and I think most of the time, when a game has a specific goal in mind, and the rules reflect that, it can make that experience better. Paranoia is terrible for running sword-and-sorcery, but is pretty good for zany madcap loltreason-fests. GURPS has no goal or setting in mind, and so it is terrible for everything.
But that's just like, my opinion, man.

I think the goal of this thread to to talk about the RPGs you like, the things you like about it, and the things you don't like about it. You see something you haven't played before and you like what you see, go give that game a shot.

>> No.15564554

Mutants and Masterminds
Pros: The wide array of powers, feats, and etc. let you make basically whatever you want. Previous characters in my group have included teenage ice manipulator, magic cowboy shaman, demonhost protected by enchanted pyjamas, steampunk gentleman inventor, and the gestalt consciousness of a 100 psychic jews killed in a holocaust experiment named "JEWBRAIN-1" that primarily fought by impaling people with streetlamps.
Cons: Making the character you want requires that you are actually familiar with that gargantuan list of powers. "Must Have" numbers like saves and defenses eat up half of your points budget in the interest of being survivable. Caps placed on the levels of offensive powers cause all players to immediately pay for those levels, leading to characters who, for all of their wild differences in origin, powers, and description, actually play pretty similarly to one another. d20 is kind of lame mechanic from a statistical analysis standpoint and always bums me out.

>> No.15564940

Fate
Pros: Works beautifully in any setting, rules-light, shared narrative control, characters' histories and personalities directly influence the game, combat is abstract allowing it to represent social conflicts, sanity, or wealth as well as physical health, injuries from combat stay with the character apply penalties interestingly, very balanced without inflicting monotony on character design.

Cons: Mechanically bland combat, any of the pros that disagree with your personal preferences.

>> No.15564990

Dread
Pros: Anyone can learn the rules in five minutes, make a character in ten, and be playing without half the night being wasted. Jenga system creates actual tension over results. Impossible to minmax or rules lawyer.
Cons: As GM you must either put a lot of work into each session or be amazing at improv. Campaign play is pretty much impossible. Clumsy players (or people who think it's "chicken" to refuse pulls) can find themselves out of the game practically before it begins.

>> No.15565061

The Riddle Of Steel

>Pros
Realistic medieval combat
Emphasizes character development via Spiritual Atributes
Combat is Lethal*
Indie Game**

>Cons
Poorly written. (not easy to pick up on one read through of the rules)
Combat is lethal*
Out of Print

*Feature of bug. The game emphasizes character development, but you can easily be one-shotted. So it features a fantastic combat engine...in which you can die in one hit.

**Part of the problem is that its out of print and has no support from the company (even while it was in print). Also it may turn people off who are a fan of more traditional games like D&D and any flavor of WOD. Which could make it either a plus of a minus

>> No.15565125

>>15565061

>*feature OR bug
>fixed typo

>polite sage

>> No.15565215

Eclipse Phase
Pros: Fantastically written setting, one of the better future sci-fi games out there, the system itself is rather simplistic (a single d100 roll for most things) and is easy to understand, great fluff and books. Free*

Cons: Combat is kinda shit, character creation takes forever even with the help of excel spreadsheets, some players have problems adapting to everything you can do in the system.

*free to share under creative commons license.

>> No.15565808

GURPS:
Pros:
You can do anything. You can have as much, or as little, detail as you want. It balances pretty nicely, with obvious exceptions (i.e. 100pt Barbarian vs. 100pt Accountant), but for the most part, you can tell when things are broken, or it's pointed out in the book. It does any type of combat well, be it hand to hand, grappling, sword and board, modern (or historical) gunfights, or futuristic blaster showdowns. It does modern/futuristic combat particularly well, especially autofire. There's a book for any fucking genre/game you want, and it's very well written. Also, if you want to play a "balanced" RIFTS game, GURPS is THE system to be using for it. And that's no mean feat.

Cons:
The learning curve; some people find it tricky, but I didn't. Personally, i think it's pretty simple. Character creation can be an arduous process IF you don't have a solid concept in mind, and finding particular traits can be tricky, if they're called something different to what you're thinking.

Now, some people would say that the rules are bland, samey, no matter what you play, it always feels the same. I don't believe that, as a.) I prefer the rules to be somewhat 'transparent', so they stay in the background, and b.) it can feel vastly different depending upon which optional rules you use (and it's ALL optional). I've played it super-gritty, with characters bleeding every round, harsh penalties for weather, darkness and footing, and very concise scrutiny of encumbrance. But i've also played it with Bang! skills, rules light, and fast-paced, and it comes out closer to Savage Worlds, or Tri-Stat (which is really just a watered down GURPS clone anyhow), which is no bad thing. So, yeah, I think that that viewpoint is bullshit, and it's a matter of people's preferences/prejudices getting in the way of them trying something different.

>> No.15565819

>>15565808
You forgot something else.

Your average GURPS players is horribly insufferable, especially when invited or playing something that isn't GURPS.

And no, not a jab at you, not a jab at the game itself (It's well done, but not my cup of tea), but my experience is that GRUPSfags are worstfags.

>> No.15565841

Riddle of Steel
Pros: Whole game is built around its combat system, but the skills out of combat are not neglected. A very compact and functional character creation and advancement system. Combat is awesome and very, very tactical. Weapons are excellently represented, very little favoritism is shown between varieties of combat.

Cons: Made by Canadians and HEMA lunatics. And it shows. Some areas were neglected unforgivably (mostly things like encumbrance, disease, medical treatment for the hideous wounds characters WILL suffer) and it also assumes a lot of player knowledge about historical weaponry and swordsmanship.

And the base-setting for the game, Weyrth, is fucking awful. Just awful.

>> No.15565845

Echelon

Pros: Different magic system. Fantasy races that don't inherently suck ass. STEAMPUNK!
Cons: Is still in playtesting.

>> No.15565859

>>15565819
Probably true, but I've never met anyone else that plays GURPS aside from my group, who were all new to RPGs.

Fucking Brisbane. No-one wants to play anything except for fucking DnD. Pic related.

>> No.15565919

Poison'd
Pros: Pirates!
Cons: Awful Rape-y

>> No.15565953

Various retroclones and older editions of D&D:
Pros:
Fast in play, combat and character creation.
Simple and easy to teach.
Can be quite deadly and encourages out-of-the-box plays.
Non-uniform level advancement.
Very open to houseruling due to it's barebones nature. (AD&D 1E being the first to kind of go the other way with a shitton of rules most people ignored)
No 'official' supplements being made for it leading to a bunch of bloat.
Modules across the editions are easily some of the best ever made and while some requires work most of them are so far beyond what tends to get put out today that it's almost embarrassing.
Works very, very well with sandbox style play. (because that and dungeoneering is what it was designed around)
Characters tend to get developed through play rather than extensive backstories (though nothing stops you from doing so) and if using the default roll method tends to leave to characters that the players would not have though up otherwise.

Cons:
Quirks of an implied setting (class levels for humanocentric settings though they don't matter in AD&D and later, vancian magic, race requirements on classes, ALIGNMENT LANGUAGES and so on)
Ocassionally quirky mechanics. (weird stat scores, the oft unfairly maligned THAC0, stat requirements for classes, alignment system)
Requires a good DM (but what system doesn't?) to make it shine.
2E's Supplement bloat. (arguably 1E's as well but that's mostly just Unearthed Arcana)
Does not tend to flow all that well with "story-based" games by default, 2E's module misadventures aside. (though there are simple houserules, setting features or DM fudging that can make it work as many, many groups that have played since the early 80's can attest to)
Thieves get shafted hard in 90% of the games. (some retroclones being the exception to the rule)

>> No.15565970

>>15565953
Oh and no skill systems beyond "Does your char know about that? Alright roll 1d6 or 1d20. +2 for experience." outside of maybe Dragon Magazine articles, a 1E supplement/module and 2E's Core.

>> No.15565983

Fairy Meat
Pros: whatisthisidon'teven.jpg
Cons: no models also mybrainisfulloffuck.jpg

>> No.15565988

>>15565983
forgot my pic

>> No.15566045

>>15565819
This, this... GURPS itself holds a dear place in my heart for having some of my favorite unarmed combat rules ever, but so many people who play it just come across as jackasses...

>> No.15566060

>>15564469
As much as I like Anima I must add the nex con to your list. I'm talking about the spanish edition, by the way.

Con: ATROCIOUS writing. Seriously, confusing ways to explain the rules, examples that confuse you even more and a prose that is at best irritating and a worst pure shit.

>> No.15566129

Eon

Pros: Realistic combat, magic system, and world
Multiple races and cultures that are all *supposed* to be there, no "evil races".
Pen may be much sharper than the sword if you choose to

Cons: Needs a GM with experience and almost encyclopedic knowledge for combat to flow smoothly.
Only in Swedish (I am now twenty-two and have applied for translation jobs there since I was sixteen)
Detailed world requires greater knowledge to be appreciated beyond standard adventurer-party-level (well, Tiracs (orcs) aren't hostile, but since your character just left his ass-backwards village in the middle of the forest he only knows tiracs from the tales of the great wars, so he shouldn't be THAT tolerant, you know?).

>> No.15566165

>>15566045
I try not to be a 'jackass', though I do get rather tired of hearing the following (untrue) criticisms:

>It's bland and samey/always feels like GURPS, etc.
like I said earlier, it depends on which optional rules you use.
>It's complicated
Pfft. No. Just no. It's simpler than most other games I've played, and I've played a few. The only things I've found that are simpler are things like FUDGE and FATE. That's about it. Maybe nWoD, but i've not played enough of that to offer honest comparison. Certainly a LOT simpler than DnD/d20, which everyone's played (which is such a fucking shame...)
>You need to employ calculus/trigonometry/a graphing calculator to play.
Again, just no. This complaint comes from the large amount of detail you had to put in with the vehicles book for the old edition. You think people would get some new material, but no, they keep flogging this dead horse.

People saying you "need spreadsheets of variables to work out target numbers" are also wrong for two reasons: 1.) GURPS doesn't use target numbers, and 2.) any table you need will be in the book, and the most commonly used one (speed/range) has a miniaturized version on the character sheet.

It essentially comes down to most people complaining and criticizing what is, in my humble opinion, a very solid, useful, and well developed system, with stale old arguments spoken out of their collective arse. The fact that other people then believe this crap, and go on to unhappily use other ill-fitting games to run their campaigns just makes me a bit sad, to say the least.

Tl; Dr, people shouldn't believe all the crap that gets dished on GURPS, and actually give it a go. You might find that it's actually quite good.

>> No.15566191

>>15566165
Hands down, GURPS is the best. I can understand why GURPSfags seem douchey. I personally won't play a d20 game anymore. It's painful for me.

>> No.15566213

WH40K

Pros:

-Fun Game
-Small armies - Not full armies that take forever to move, not a skirmish game.
-Has some tatical depth
-Decent community spread worldwide
-As much of a painting hobby as you like
-Regular updates - Rules evolve, armies evolve.

Cons:
-Ridiculously expensive
-Very random. TO the point that in some games you were a brilliant genereal, and the dice got you steamrolled.
-Did i say expensive already?
-There is pratically no "lets play a game right now". You need a armylist for any amount of points, and those can take a while to make.
-Some armies are kept years behind in the evolution, to the point that are almost unplayable.
-The producer (Games Workshop) doesnt care at all with what the playerbase thinks. That usually means that you can always expect a price hike at any time, for one reason or another.

>> No.15566235

>>15566191
Likewise. I had to sit through fucking years of broken d20 DnD, Spycraft, and that fucktarded d20 Call of Cthulu, all the while trying (in vain) to get my group to play GURPS.

Hence the "Intolerance (d20 Die-hards)" disadvantage I have, but hey, it gives me 5 extra character points.
(oh know wait, i'm a harsh GM, you don't get a reward for a disad gained in play...)

>> No.15566237

Star Wars Saga Edition
Pros: Talent system allows for flexible character building. Condition track system simulates serious wounds hampering ability to fight. Force power system is simple and fun. Sourcebooks for almost all the most important topics in Star Wars. It is a Star Wars game, and I really like Star Wars.
Cons: Properly designed Jedi are almost invincible compared to other characters at high levels. Rules topics (talents, feats, species, gear, vehicles, etc.) spread out among nearly a dozen books, making it hard at times to find what you're looking fore. No NJO sourcebook. No ongoing support with WotC's loss of the license.

>> No.15566249

>>15566235
Eh. It's more like Dislikes(d20). It's a quirk at best.

>> No.15566345

Question for GURPS folks.
I like books. I just enjoy the feel of paper in my hand, and hate printing PDFs. GURPS seems expensive, if only because there are a lot of books to get. I already have a pretty sexybig collection of 3.x books, is GURPS worth the investment?
How much should I expect to spend to get into it? (ie, to buy the core. I can print splash things, even if it hurts.)
Where should I buy?
What edition is best-edition?

>> No.15566361

>>15566345
4e is best. The player's book, "GURPS: Characters", is $40. The GM book, "GURPS: Campaign", is $35, but players should read it at least once, so they understand the game rules. Most splats are $35, but most of them are just tips and equipment. GURPS's spell system is lame; just call psionics magic and be done with it. "GURPS: Powers", for characters with supernatural power, and "GURPS: Martial Arts" are both really good investments.

>> No.15566385

>>15566361
Of course, core covers supernatural powers and martial arts just fine.

>> No.15566392

rolled 10 = 10

Warmahordes
Pros:
Clear, concise rules with errata and examples in the rule book. My favorite example of this is the entry for Cygnars Battle Engine. It has an ability that boosts the attack of surrounding friendly units. On the very same pages there is an inset saying that "Yes, The battle engine counts as a nearby friendly unit". Essentially stopping Rules Lawyering before it can get started.
Cheaper than many other options, a normal sized(35pt) army will be less than $150.
Balanced. Nearly a dozen factions, none overpowered, none really underpowered.
Flexible. Mercs and minions allow for extra army building flexibility.
Tactical. Rules are more than just Move, Shoot Stab.

Cons
Its a skirmish game, and tends to slow down severely around 50-75 points.
Casters are like Kings in chess, lose one and even if you were winning, you just lost.
Balance between factions is achieved by making everything awesome.
The tactics often boil down to getting the most from feat turns. A single bad turn can and will lose you the game.
Participation depends on area. Some places have almost no community for it.

>> No.15566403

>>15566361
So if I can get both Campaigns and Characters for 25USD, then I should pounce?

>> No.15566407

Wild Talents

Pros: Lots of crunchy fun if you like dice pools, flexible system that covers a lot of powers, ORE resolves tasks and combat quickly and easily, corebook includes guides on playing/running roleplaying games from solid perspective.

Cons: It's very easy to break, and a new GM like me can have trouble with balance. I left off heavy armor on some demonic pangolins I attacked my player with (yes, evil pangolins) and he murdered them effortlessly. Hard dice and wiggle dice also make shit stupidly lethal and tasks instantly successful in many cases. There's little support for building things besides minions and full-fledged characters, and the forum for the game hasn't been too helpful. Also, it can be tricky to build some powers properly, because they're more abstract than M&M. Finally, if you have having dicepools EVERYWHERE, you might want to pass this up.

>> No.15566434

Star Wars d6
Pros: Fun, flexible, quick gameplay, not class-based, tons and tons of fluff and great sourcebooks, fun non-d20 dice mechanic
Cons: No one fucking plays it anymore, not really balanced at higher levels of play, lack of official books for any post-1998 franchise material, only sorta-balanced between Jedi and non-Jedi

>>15566237

I'm sorry, man. I didn't know WotC gave up the license. I heard good things about Saga Edition. It's not easy when a publisher loses the rights to the Star Wars RPG you know and love. I've been there. Trust me, it gets better.

Let's go drinking and then take it out on whatever publisher picks up the license next.

>> No.15566451

>>15566403
YES! Where?

>> No.15566464

>>15566451
proper amazon and ebay shenanigans. and craigslist.

>> No.15566474 [DELETED] 

>>15566464
Nice. I'm jelly.

>> No.15566610

Classic Traveller

Pros : incredible and imaginative sci-fi sandbox with limitless possibilities

Cons : if it's not overly simple it's overly complicated, everything is determined by 2d6

>> No.15566682

rolled 49 = 49

>>15565983
Hey Fairy Meat! the old Kenzer & Co Game.

I loved Clockwork Stomp.. the minis for *that* were dead easy to find. Go to any Home & Garden center: grab Lawn Gnome: Profit!

there are models for that! totally! They are just nigh-impossible to find! You'd have better luck making some with a Reaper Wings-pack.

>captcha: oclock yingling

Apparently, it's beer-thirty in the morning...

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