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[ERROR] No.15024280 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How should I negotiate with my players so that none of them roll a wizard/sorcerer?
it just makes planning campaign and dungeons easier when I don't have a player in the party who can fix it all with just one spell.

PS. I want to stick to 3.5 because I know lot of people in my group have some splat books with classes they want to use so 4th edition would not work.

>> No.15024297


>> No.15024332

>I want to use a particular system that has some serious balance issues
>I want to take out two of the most loved and most fun classes that are also imbalanced

Honestly OP, either just say that they can't roll Sorc and Wizard, end of story, or switch to a system with better balance like 4e or Pathfinder (somewhat). You can find all the books you'll ever need on /rs/ in pdf.

If you're trying to convince them logically not to roll Sorc and Wizard without saying that the classes are shut off altogether, they'll just want to roll them more.

>> No.15024349


No. Just, fucking No. That is not a helpful suggestion in the slightest. "Buy more books, get the same problems free!"

Anyway, to answer OP:

Just talk to them, say that you don't like DMing games with those classes. If they don't respect your preferences and fun, then you were in for a shit game anyways. Look at the spells that are significant problems for you, probably teleport, scrying, and other dungeon-breaking ones, and ask them how you're going to run an entire campaign, not just a single adventure, without those ruining your plans constantly.

No game is better than a bad game.

>> No.15024378

But I don't want to be a massive cunt, but I want to have not too elaborate traps just because the party has a wizard in it.

I used to run once a campaign where I wanted the BBEG to make an awesome escape by ladders falling through the glass ceiling and then just flying away. But then the wizard was like "what is flying him away" and it was an large airship.

So the wizard decided to do the Hiddenburg disaster on it. What I wanted to be a 12 session longer campaign from that point ended right there as the villain and half of the party died to a flaming airship falling on them.

The wizard of course survived.

I'm just kinda bitter.

>> No.15024398

If it bothers you that much when your players win in an entirely fair manner by using their described abilities to outsmart you, don't GM.

>> No.15024418

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you use a flame-proof covering and helium instead of hydrogen. Prevents all sort of wizard-related disasters.

>> No.15024422

You must suck at GMing if one character, when given near infinite resources and some munchkining, can break the game.

>> No.15024423

Make casting magic have some sort of corruption or sanity based drawback. Double casting times to reflect the difficulty that faces mortals when attempting to weave the arcane. Have magic be so god damn rare that it would be unfathomably unlikely for one of them to be a wizard or a sorcerer.

Alternatively, just ask them politely not to roll up those classes.

>> No.15024428

That's why the whole "fly away" thing never works in a setting with magic that allows people to fly. You just need to out-plan the magic users. Know what they're capable of, and work around it. Even in 4e that fly-away thing doesn't work.

Good badguy escapes are "it was a hologram!" (better if you let the party find out), "he's invincible in his present form" (again, let them find out), "deadman's switch that will kill the party", or "hostage situation". Having him fly away is a situation that assumes only melee attackers, because putting him in the air makes him an ideal target for anything with a ranged attack and half a brain.

>> No.15024445


If you ask them politely not to roll a wizard or sorcerer, do you think they will anyway?

If they will anyway, they don't give a fuck about what you think. So, don't give a fuck about what they think and straight-up TELL them not to roll wizard or sorcerer.

You're not being a cunt. You're responding preemptively to them being cunts.

>> No.15024461


Better escape: Trapdoor leading into a greased chute heading straight into the bowels of the earth. At the very end of it is a portal keyed to the villain's life signature, sending to one of their other secret lairs. The second he goes through it, the portal closes.

Anyone else following him either splats into the ground (if you're evil) or simply takes a bunch of falling damage and is now forced to navigate an extremely treacherous dungeon with broken limbs (if you're generous).

>> No.15024463


Well the villain himself had protection in form of bullet proof machine gun umbrella Penquin style, so the party Ranger with a carbine could not just shoot him down.

>> No.15024483

just kill them constantly
if they're dressed in a robe and wizzard hat have scouts/rogues target them at range and then flee. if they cast in battle have the enemy scream WIZZZAARD! and target them exclusively.

>> No.15024494

So you're complaining about having to plan complex shit to nerf wizards but you have no problem giving the BBEG a fucking bulletproof umbrella just to fuck over your ranger.
Dude, it's not the wizard. It's you.

>> No.15024500

OP, I think you should just let them roll to be wizards/sorcerers. Start the campaign with anyone who rolled those two classes being publicly executed for witchcraft then bam. Kill them and make them make new characters, if they try it again just catch them and kill them. They'll catch on eventually.

>> No.15024506

Make arcane magic forbidden in your setting. PC mages have to keep their shit on the serious dl if they don't want to be burned at the stake.

>> No.15024510

It was not as hopeless as you think.
The area was made of cover that he could make tumble and hide checks in and get around to shoot the villain in back.

But before he got to do that, the whole wizard destroys the airship thing happens.

I wanted them to fight him and then have a re-match in the campaign finale, with him still recovering from any wounds they would do now to him.

>> No.15024515

The simplest solution is the most obvious one, OP.


DnD 3.5 is shit tier. Expand your and your group's horizons a bit.

>> No.15024525

What about divine magic? Clerics and Druids are also Tier 1.

>> No.15024527

That's infinitely more dickish than just telling someone not to roll a wizard. Seriously, you sound like a godawful dm if that's your solution.

>> No.15024547

All I'm saying is that if you had planned for that, why couldn't you plan for the wizard throwing a damn fireball. Honestly, the wizard was just playing it smart other than not thinking about the ship falling on the party (pc's, what ya gonna do).
So either ask them nicely not to roll wizards or be a better dm.

>> No.15024556

The only problem with this is somehow making all these non-core classes working with different systems. For example, one of my players loves the Combat Alchemist in this IK NQ magazine. I know there are tons of Alchemist classes everywhere, but somehow adapting it to be like the magazine one would be pretty tedious in a long run so I don't know what to do with it.

I want my players to enjoy it as much I as do, but sometimes they just do silly things.

>> No.15024557


>I wanted them to fight him and then have a re-match in the campaign finale

It isn't about what YOU want to happen, it's about what the PLAYERS want to happen. Present them with insurmountable problems, and they will fucking FIND a way to surmount them.

>> No.15024571

Never plan ahead. Only ever plan the session that's coming up (with a back-up plan if things end too soon, like an arena, or some generic side-quests), then plan the next based on what the party did.
If you really, really want a recurring enemy, never EVER EVER EVER let your party meet him in a killable form unless you want him to die. Or have his followers resurrect him off-screen in an anti-magic, anti-scry, anti-teleport flying fortress guarded by a storm of ancient dragons.

In the end, don't forget that they are SUPPOSED to win. Just make it awesome when they do.

>> No.15024582

Play a low-magic campaign.

Anything that can cast spell above level 5 is out (level 6, if you want Bards).

Classes that fall under this are as follows:

- Hexblade
- Warlock
- Adept
- Paladin
- Ranger
- Soulknife
- Dragon Shaman
- Ninja
- Monk
- Barbarian
- Fighter
- Rogue
- Scout
- Spelltheif
- Swashbuckler
- Knight
- (Except Samurai. No one wants to play Samurai)

Suddenly! Martial classes are useful! People have to go Hexblade/Duskblade/Warlock/Adept/etc and fucking well WORK for their spells! Skills are actually used!

I have played a long campaign like this and it was fun and we had very few balancing issues.

>> No.15024587

Really your player only plays ONE FUCKING CLASS? My expanding horizons comment doubly applies.

>> No.15024588

Strange. My players ausualy so dumb, that they cant find even obvious things.

>> No.15024589

> 6 wishes 6 greater wishes, and a dozen metamagic wishes per day
> Balanced

>> No.15024597

All fighters. Core only. No jumping rails.

Final Destination.

>> No.15024606

Yeah I know this, I just want to tell my story as well as a DM.
Also I know they are supposed to win, but... Ok, do you people really just shrug if the party member decided to cause almost a TPK on them? I mean I would had just accepted it as my personal flaw to let the airship go down, but it almost killed everyone! Wizard survived because of fire resistance and stuff and the ranger just did amazing reflex saves and shit to dodge burning debris and fire, 4 others in a 6 player team died. It just did not feel right.

BTW we DM in turns whenever someone wants to. So like we change it around when we feel like it.

>> No.15024613

Of course he doesn't play only one class!
It was only an example!

>> No.15024623

>Dragonfire Adept

Bluh, forgot these two classes. Watch those Dragonfire Adepts, though.

>> No.15024636

See, that's the player's fault. You're Not addressing the right problem. It's not because he was playing wizard but because he's a dumbass. It doesn't matter what class they are, morons are morons.

>> No.15024643

Then you don't need the fucking super specific retard class from a magazine.

Dump 3.5 you will be happier for it.

>> No.15024674

In other words "Baww I'm a massive fucking mary sue cunt. My story didn't play out exactly as I wanted because I over looked a major flaw and now I'm mad at my players for not conforming exactly to my vision of my story. baww."

Confirmed for That GM.

>> No.15024683

Just limit their access to high level magic.
A lvl 9 spell might encompass an entire campaign. It may deal Con damage. It may require rare ingredients the characters have limited access to. Whatever you do, don't follow the 20 nukes/day bullshit in the book.

>> No.15024701

>How should I negotiate with my players so that none of them roll a wizard/sorcerer?
Intoduce Misscasts (or Perils of the Warp) like in Warhammer Fantasy (40k).
After a few TPKs, they'll understand.

>> No.15024745

>It's the players fault

That's like saying someon who plays a man of fire is at fault for setting everything on fire.

Does the fault lie with the man playing that very person that's sole purpose is to FIRE everything, or does it lie with the system encouraging you to FIRE everything?

The fault lies with the system that says the goal is to destroy EVERYTHING, but fire is 400 times more effective than ice or acid. Who can blame any success-oriented player for chosing fire under those conditions?

All in all, just say you don't want casters - but then again, if you go for 3.5 without casters, just go for a different system all together. Trust me.

Casters in 3.5 are horribly overpowered even in the core rules, and only get worse with expansions. Chose a different system if you have problems with that.

>> No.15024771

Miscasts are a shit idea if they can kill the party. you're essentially playing russian roulette with your campaign.

OP: Instead of sucking (you suck, btw), try remembering what spells they have access to when you design shit.

I would sincerely suggest using the spontaneous divine caster variant from UA, and just dropping the wizard class entirely in favor of giving sorcerers bonus feats and letting them cast with int or cha. Then pay the fuck attention to what spells they're learning and veto shit such as shivering touch or anything third party.

>> No.15024791


Y'know, I was thinking about doing this for my next Fantasy Craft game. There's a campaign quality called "Corrupting Magic" that forces you to make a will save every time you cast, the DC being 10+the number of spellpoints you use. Normally it just adds increasingly severe degrees of the "Tainted" status (with Tainted V meaning the character becomes an NPC from the corruption), but adding some extra penalties might just do the trick.

>> No.15024800

That's why I like my group when it comes to spells, they don't care much for utility but for shear awesomeness.

>> No.15024802

> try remembering what spells they have access to when you design shit.
Okay, so a copper dragon for the warrior, a bronze whelp for the bard and cleric, and 35 gold ancient wyrms for the sorcerer.
See? Balance isn't that hard.

>> No.15024824

>try remembering what spells they have access to when you design shit
Yea, go ahead and memorize a dozen splatbooks worth of spells if they are a divine caster, and keep notes on every single magic item the wizard has.
Dude, that is stupid and you know it.

>> No.15024853

Casters have more options than just fireball. And anyway, it was the player's fault. The only problem was killing over half the team which the PLAYER could have avoided if the PLAYER had just told them what he was doing and given them a chance to get outnof the way. Other than that, it was actually a good idea.

>> No.15024862


Better idea, since it's kind of evil to immediately introduce the Perils of the Warp with every failed casting.

Instead, start with Psychic Phenomena once the caster hits Tainted I and II. Once they reach III or IV, THEN hit them with Perils of the Warp. Adjust according to your preferences.

Isn't Fantasy Craft built so you don't even need to include magic at all?

>> No.15025258

Iron Heroes

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