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[ERROR] No.14678672 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Are magic and religion mutually incompatible in your games? People think of magic like science so I'm just wondering. I'm worldbuilding for the first time and it seems like an issue that should be important.

>> No.14678680

>mutually incompatible
traditional DnD differentiates between divine and arcane

>> No.14678691

>>14678680
And?

>> No.14678693

>Are magic and religion mutually incompatible in your games?
There are PILES of games that have no issues with this.
Not every setting replaces scientific progress with magic. You can have with, and some settings rely on a healthy mix of both.

>> No.14678694

>>14678672
Nope.

>> No.14678696

What a bizarre question. There are absolutely joint divine/arcane casters, if that's what you mean. The Mystic Theurge comes to mind.

>> No.14678720

OP your image is fucking disgusting.

I was going to contribute but then I was sidetracked by some creepy fap-figurine and now I don't even remember.

>> No.14678726

>>14678696
He wasn't talking about D&D you dunce.

>> No.14678727

What, kid, are we doing this tonight?

>> No.14678730

>>14678672
there are so many combinations of this
magic and religion are incompatable
magic and religion are totally comparable, but magic outside of religion is heresy

Or you can go the whole hog
this magic A is incompatible with religion, but is fine outside
magic B is compatible with religion, but is not okay outside religion
Magic C is okay in our out of religion
Magic D is always wrong

Then to add the next layer of complexity you have magic A B C, subtypes xyz, and Religions 1 2 3.
so long as magic Bz is incompatible with religion 1 you're fine

>> No.14678731

>>14678720
I bet you clicked on it because you thought it was a drawing and hot and then it was a doll and freaked you out.

>> No.14678733

>>14678726
Of course he was. Look, he has an elf in the picture, and he speaks of magic and religion as though they are somehow different.
Obviously he is referring to divine and arcane energy. Silly man.

>> No.14678734

>>14678726
He never said that and, besides, I'm providing an example of how magic (for that's what technology is largely seen as in 40k) can work with religion.

>> No.14678738

>>14678727
Continuous days.

>> No.14678739

>>14678691
and so in many games magic has it's own subset of religious magic

>> No.14678742 [DELETED] 

>>14678734
If you prefer a fantasy example you can always use the Hammerites from the Thief games. And their Mechanist splinter cult.

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Hammerite?title=Hammerites&page=4

>> No.14678745

>>14678738
Well alright, but have you done this before? Because you're not doing it right.

You've got to posit the OP question in such a way as it offends people, not so that it makes them genuinely answer you. This is actually a good question.

>> No.14678747

>>14678742
Hammerites were incredibly shitty.

>> No.14678756

>>14678745
We'll work towards it.

>> No.14678759

>>14678727
>>14678738
>>14678745
Context plox?

>> No.14678765

>>14678756
Well alright, I'm a man of my word if nothing else.

>> No.14678780

It depends how magic is done. If magic adheres to a logical process of discovery and research then of course it will conflict with dogmatic religions.

>> No.14678781

In a lot of settings, there's just magic. It might be "arcane" or "divine", but usually its kinda both. Like asian and/or animistic settings, where all magic is basically done through spirits, the line gets a little hazy.

Heck, even Tolkien blurred the line a bit- virtually everyone capable of magic was a demigod or immortal of some sort. The wizards definitely so, and the elves damn close. Magic itself might be a gift of the gods, too.

That said, in settings with a clear difference between arcane and divine magic, it could make sense that a lot of gods wouldn't want their followers getting their juice from anywhere else. Keep your followers dependent on you, and you keep them loyal. Or if magic actually comes from deals with the ungodly, it sounds a bit less selfish of them.

>> No.14678783

>>14678759
Oh, I Jabberjaqued this kid in the last religious troll thread, so he's starting up a new one for each time he was so Jaquez'd.
But he's kind of fucked it up by making it look like a legitimate question instead of flaming ignorance, you know? This happens to everyone their first time.

>> No.14678806

In my current setting, magic and religion coexist. Priests and similar classes draw their magic power from their gods in exchange for a piece of their soul. In the end, the priests literally become one with their gods, conciousness notwithstanding of course.

Divine magic can be used for anything as compared to common magic which is split into aspects and has to be specifically drawn from sources (fire magic from fire etc.). It is however not more powerful in any way, just easier to generate and use.

>> No.14678812

>People think of magic like science
they don't. They really, really don't.

>> No.14678813

I don't understand this fucking thread, religion is magic.

>> No.14678818

>>14678813
What, like real life religion? Miracles aren't real bro.

>> No.14678823

>>14678813
>>14678818
Oh for God's sake, pace yourself man, don't make me come down there and do it for you.

>> No.14678833

>>14678813

Good point. Yeah, most "real-life" magic is basically a highly ritualized form of prayer. It just gets labeled "magic" by other religions so they can denounce it without looking hypocritical.

>> No.14678835

OP, first define the two, then think about what they individually do to your setting. If miracles occur and are potentially obtainable by mortals, you're going to have a very different society than what you may have in mind. Likewise with magic, which will inevitably disobey physics.

After all, why study the laws of nature when you can just ignore them?

>> No.14678840

>>14678823
You give /tg/ way too much credit, I'm afraid. I didn't post either of those.

>> No.14678843

>>14678833

Okay, that last bit's an exaggeration, but still. Prayer to gods or spirits, typically with some kind of trade involved instead of begging for divine charity.

>> No.14678849

>>14678835
So if magic follows concrete laws and religion does not they will conflict? What about if religion's powers are real? How would that effect the dynamic and conflict between them?

>> No.14678851

I always find it best if religions work like magic, and what people actually follow is outgrowths of either as belief systems.
Cuthbert lets you punch people twenty yards if you pray to him and don't break laws? That must mean he's pretty hot stuff, and that you should use your 'punching people twenty yards' for preventing the law from being broken.
X specific incantation opens a portal to the elemental plane of fire, and works better if you're angry? Then logically, fire can be equated with anger and the rest falls into place.
Also means every damn religion isn't the catholic church or buddhism with the name filed off.

>> No.14678862

>>14678840
Oh, you. Alright, no, we'll watch and see. I might've been wrong, you might have it.

>> No.14678872

>>14678783
>>14678823
>>14678862
Thread's some bullshit avatarfag game. Sage and report.

>> No.14678879

>>14678849
They're questions OP should ask after thinking about what each individual system does in the first place.

>> No.14678883

>>14678851
You don't get a lot of Catholic Church expies in most fantasy, though one really good one (if you're looking for it anyway) is Cheliax, with its bizarre Iomadae Asmodeus dichotomy.
On the one hand, Iomadae is obviously the Christ figure, representing the rise of humanity to fill the void left by... I want to say Abadar, but I can't remember his name, anyway their big awesome justice god.

On the other hand, because Abadar never returned and Iomadae rose instead, the nobility turned to Devil worship, Asmodeus, etc, to fill the void left in their lives.

If you look at it closely enough, it's a very similar setup, with Abadar here representing the Roman Empire, and Asmodeus being Antipopes, or other corrupt rulers whom Italia sold herself out to with her centralized leadership gone.

>> No.14678896

>>14678872
It's really more of a friendly bet between trolls. See, I put a stop to a bad thread with some well aimed counter-trolling, and now this berk things he can out-troll me. I mean really, the cheek of it all. Hell, even I've reported it. I'd report myself, but I don't think I can.

>> No.14678897

>>14678883
>antipope
Actually, I never understood what this really meant. What is the Church's justification for this term? Satan deceived a wrong pope into office or something?

>> No.14678899

I keep the system/setting agnostic with regards to its people's deities. Yes, powerful priests of just about any religion can work "miracles." Yes, the rituals performed by local tribes/sects appear to have real effects. Yes, there are those who appear able to "do magic." But none of this is flat out attributed to a particular pantheon, arcane force, or whatever. Lots of room for the religious to hate on heathens and the educated to disdain the yokels who use forces they don't understand.

I do keep them mutually incombatible, though.

>> No.14678903

>>14678883
Might just be my DMs, then.
Every church except druids is basically a Mission, unless it's in a major population center in which case get out the gilt and sanctums.

>> No.14678909

>>14678897
Sorry, I was explaining myself to the guy. It can mean like eight different things, but the easiest of them is "Pope installed through false means." The HRE was guilty of this one a few times, St. Matilda had to beat their asses up to reinstate the true Pope.

>> No.14678912

>>14678909
So... It is Satan? Or is it men?

>> No.14678919

>>14678912
What, do I look like Thomas Aquinas? I'm not even a Catholic, I learned this doing a powerpoint example. It's probably something like both, though.

>> No.14678925

>>14678897
It's a political term for someone who tried to claim the authority of the papacy without the approval of the vatican. Most of them weren't successful because the church had better murderers at their disposal then anybody else in western europe.

>> No.14678927

I like Reign's approach. There are dozens of different schools of magic and they all basically operate like cults but each has its own philosophy so to some practicing magic is an act of devotion and to others it's just a way to get rich. There may or may not be a unifying theory underlying all the magic in the world, but everyone's too intent on protecting their own school's mysteries to formulate it.

The standard D&D arcane/divine split has gotten very old. Just say there's magic and let people decide how to approach it.

>> No.14678950

>>14678897
It's just sometimes back during the middle ages there were kingdoms that didn't agree with the pope that Rome selected, so they picked some bishop to be their own pope. Rome would term these anti-popes. France and Germany(HolyRomanEmpire) did this a few times. Don't think any anti-pope ever became the legitimate pope, though once France did kidnap the pope and tried to install it's own anti-pope in his place.

>> No.14678952

All of this largely depends on whether gods are real in your setting. For example, in the vast majority of D&D settings, the gods are 100% real, no question about it, and many of them do magic themselves.

Now, maybe you've got a setting where very real gods approve of divine magic but not of arcane magic, then you've got a conflict. Or maybe a setting where the dominant religions believe that all magic comes from the gods, but magic done outside of the clergy is heresy because you're stealing power from the gods.

If, in your setting, gods are a matter of faith--their reality isn't certain--then yeah, you can have a conflict between religion and magic.

And if your setting is the real world, Judeo-Christian religions seriously look down on magic, as they hold that it is demonic and against God's will. There's your religion/magic conflict.

>> No.14678962

>>14678927
I agree re: the arcane/divine split. Even when I design D&D settings, I say that there really isn't any difference between arcane and divine magic, it's just question of context.

I don't do D&D settings much anymore, though.

I'm not familiar with Reign, but that sounds like a pretty cool approach to magic. I'm starting to enjoy, more and more, settings where magic is subtle and very occult--magic pretty much IS religion, and vice versa. This was (and still is) true of many real life religions, except that their magic doesn't, y'know, actually do anything.

>> No.14678978

>>14678962
Jesus saves, man.

>> No.14678982

Virtually never. Sometimes though, I'll have deities, or at least religions, looking down upon certain kinds of magic as unclean or hazardous for the soul. I play Riddle of Steel almost exclusively these days, and its magic system is so goddamn byzantine that this whole question is generally moot.

>> No.14678989

>>14678952
Note that in most D&D settings, clerics/paladins of (emotion/concept/thing) are perfectly acceptable and gods are only necessary in cases where actual miracles happen. Like raise dead, resurection or ... well, the actual "miracle" spell.

>> No.14678993

>>14678978
That is not magic. Calling it as such is a one way ticket to hell, mister. Now you mind your Ps and Qs.

>> No.14678998

>>14678962
I on the other hand am starting to enjoy setting in which religion is MORE distinct from magic than in DnD
meaning that divine power is not just another way to cast spell, though typically the gods are very much real.
Currently I'm working on a homebrew based in with the 'gods' ARE four concepts, but still with motives and ability exert power

>> No.14679001

>>14678993
Jesus was a low-level wizard working for the Jewish equivalent of Gruumsh.

>> No.14679006

>>14678982
Ahh, Riddle of Steel. Where anthropology is locked in the basement and raped, unceasingly, by a quartet of bears.

>> No.14679011

>>14679001
Gruumsh is a punk. Jehovah is like motherfucking Rovagug with the Dire template and a weirder name.

>> No.14679025

>>14679001
He mostly did healing magic, yet it usually looked more like laying-on-hands. I'd say he was a monk or a paladin or something similar.
And the reason I say the magic thing is that the proper term is "Charisms." Magic is something you do with rituals to effect the world, Charisms are you entreating God to intervene, and him doing so,

Important distinction. Also, what Johnny said.

>> No.14679038

>>14679011
>Create universe
>Create beautiful vistas and worlds, and eternal cosmos and brilliant processes of life
>Create Australia

My realizes that God was Chaotic Evil was the first motivating factor in my decision to worship him.

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