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14676573 No.14676573 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I dont actually know much about warhammer fluff, well...any outside of tau, and little of tau for that matter...but:

Why the fuck havent the tau raped everyone else up the ass? They are the only ones that:

UNDERSTAND thier technology and are making IMPROVEMENTS to it.

use DRONE SOLDIERS in combad, allowing for almost infinite army sizes only limited by materal supplies and construction time.

use GUIDED MISSILES to hit high value targets.

INCORPERATE other races technology?

I mean...why don't they just rape everything?

>> No.14676606

Because WH40K is the most realistic game to grace /tg/. No fucking weeaboo science faggot missile is gonna pierce my pauldron.

>> No.14676618

They're a very small, and quite minor alien race in 40k, there are many minor alien races like the tau in the galaxy, they just have an army book of their own.

They're barely acknowledged as a threat by the Imperium because there are so many more important threats(Tyranids being one of those) to deal with than yet another minor xeno empire gnawing at their heels.

>> No.14676626

>>14676573
Because they are REALLY tiny, and everyone else is on a permanent war footing while they are not. Plus:

>UNDERSTAND thier technology and are making IMPROVEMENTS to it.
Is not an auto-win, just a "I can catch up if I'm behind, and further any leads I have". Doesn't help much when you're outnumbered 100,000:1 (really, that's about the ratio between the tau armed forces and the imperium.

>use DRONE SOLDIERS in combad, allowing for almost infinite army sizes only limited by materal supplies and construction time.
Except: A) Those drones have piss-poor targeting, worse than their standard troops (which is the same as the targeting of basic humans) B) you have to transport that shit, and command staff, and replacement parts, and mechanics, etc... Not near infinite.

>use GUIDED MISSILES to hit high value targets.
While their opponents use orbital bombardment, with much stronger weapons.

>INCORPERATE other races technology?
Odd, I was unaware the Tau had Gauss flayers and D-cannons. Perhaps this might, you know, take a long time? Baring the rather cheap shit the imperium uses.

>> No.14676630

1. Lack of numbers. The tau are outnumbered by EVERYONE, up to and including the Eldar. The tau are at such a numbers disadvantage, in fact, that the Imperium could cleanse them through sheer attrition if they wanted to. The fact that they are busy with the hive fleets, chaos, necrons, and everything else stops that. The tau are the least threat in the whole galaxy.

2. Lack of mass-manufacturing capability. This ties into 1. The tau don't have the manufacturing ability to sustain a war of attrition or a major crusade.

3. Lack of warp speed. Tau warp drives are slow. When transversing a sector takes about a month using an imperial ship, a tau warp drive will take about 6 months. This severely hampers their ability to expand.

4. Newness to the setting. Tau ships are just starting to be refined and remade. Most vessels in the tau fleet are repurposed exploration and cargo ships, and they are just starting to create dedicated warships. These warships, admittedly, rock face. But thanks to the newness of them and point 2, anyone else can field about 4 battleships for every one the tau have, on a galactic scale.

There's more, but those are the salient points.

>> No.14676642

>>14676618
This. Also, as advances as the Tau are, The Imperium still has superior starship technology, and better soldiers in general.

>> No.14676647

>>14676626
I just thought that a completley automated and non-organic space ship could be produced, and rape anyone who didnt have that capability.

like...i don't know...BS2 S5 drones with toughness 2, but cost like 2 points a model. I would field a entire army with that.

>> No.14676659

>>14676630
I thought that they had more manufacturing capability than manpower to use the tools?

I if they are small now, how many years until they are a real threat? like...200 years ago they were nomadic.

>> No.14676661

Because their 'empire' is itty bitty.
And their tech is mostly shit tier compared to the other factions. Their best stuff is reverse engineered Imperium Tech. See: their psuedo-warp drives.
They are improving though.

>> No.14676666
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14676666

CAUSE DEM T- OW BOYZ DUN UNDASTAND WAT MAKES A GEWD WAAAAAAAAAGHHHHH!

>> No.14676667
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14676667

First point is true, and is one of the major reasons they've been doing real.

2nd point: Drones atm are pretty... "meh" - they can provide some fire power but there basic. Also Imperial guard can send more (and in many cases, better) troops into the fray than any possible amount of drones can be produced.

Guided missiles is also something the Imperials have - hunter killer missiles.

Your 4th point is good, they also incorperate other races entirely (or in the case of kroot - partially)

One thing they dont have are Pskyers or Warp-based FTL. Pskyers are generally required to do the latter (at least for humans... not sure what orks do probably sheer Waaaagh energy allows em to make spaces between planets much much smaller)
Tau however do not have that sorta travel, they cant go "Into" the warp (like Kroot can) but they more of "skip" accross its surface. So they move relatively slower (still FTL) than Imperial ships in the warp. This limits how fast they may expand and what they can effectively defend.

>> No.14676668

Tau+"ololol y we no winning yet, tech superiority" = Obvious troll thread

Unless OP is serious. Then I apologize.

>> No.14676671

>>14676647
See
>>14676630

Tau just do not have the manufacturing ability, point blank. The Imperium can turn out dozens of cruisers a year because it has thousands of forge planets. The tau have the mass manufacturing ability of maybe 10. Not exactly small change, but the Imperium is fucking vast and has much more power than people give it credit for.

>> No.14676674

>UNDERSTAND thier technology and are making IMPROVEMENTS to it.

Small amounts of well used technology are still beaten by unending hordes of semi-competently trained soldiers using weapons that they understand the exact minimum about.

We see this in the middle East even in modern times, though the roles are reversed in this case.
>Yes, I'm implying that the west is losing, because it is.

>use DRONE SOLDIERS in combad, allowing for almost infinite army sizes only limited by materal supplies and construction time.

These are not AI, and require controllers to be used beyond "detect enemy, shoot at enemy". And supplies and construction time really are an issue - they can be outproduced by everything other than the Eldar... excepting the Necrons, because they don't produce anything new and still rape everything.

>use GUIDED MISSILES to hit high value targets.

Which is all well and good, but when you are faced down by an army hundreds of times your size, high value targets only count for so much.

>INCORPERATE other races technology
Technology only gets you so far. "I have a gun that rapes everything" ... "And I have 50 guardsmen charging your firewarrior squad". They simply don't have the numbers to compete.

Also the fact that they are restricted to sub-light speeds, and cannot communicate faster than light. And the fact that there are random rebellions in the Imperium easily the size of their entire empire, and those get crushed pretty quickly.

Really the only reason the Tau aren't exterminated is because they are able to be somewhat co-existed with, and because they are small enough to avoid becoming high on the priority list for crusades.

>> No.14676679

because despite their understanding of their own technology, they are still millions of years behind the advancements of the other races, as well as woefully naive on the subject of MAGIC, which is all too common in 40k

For the record; the Eldar are also in full command of their technology, as are the necrons. And most space marines (or elite troops) know enough to do field maintenance on their equipment

don't forget, even if they match (or surpass) other races in terms of technological might, they don't have the overwhelming numbers and resources of the other races (even the eldar outnumber them significantly). Were any one of the factions to focus their attentions on them, they would be wiped out. No question.

I say this as a Tau player, mind.

>> No.14676681

>>14676659
They aren't a threat and won't be.
They contain a tiny number of worlds.
Rounding errors on the number of Imperial worlds in existence far, far outmatches the entire Tau empire.
And the Tau were shocked to learn about the concept of a forge world. Their manufacturing capabilities are vastly behinds the Imperium's.

>> No.14676685

>>14676671
I totaly know they are outnumbered like...1000000000000 to .001, but production capability per-capida? I thought there were great.

>> No.14676686

>>14676573
And depending on just how well leashed tau AI is, they could be enjoying a robot war any day now. And a leashed AI is the last thing you want piloting something as valuable as a cruiser.

>> No.14676688

>>14676630
>3. Lack of warp speed. Tau warp drives are slow. When transversing a sector takes about a month using an imperial ship, a tau warp drive will take about 6 months. This severely hampers their ability to expand.
The very first warp skip cappable ship the tau made, the research prototype "Explorer" was 1/6th as fast as the average imperial ship. A century later the standard Hero class Tau later is 1/3rd as fast as the average imperial ship.

>> No.14676691

>>14676661
The fancy commander battlesuits sure are better than mehreen armor, tho

>> No.14676694

Tau don't win because they've only got like a hundred worlds or something. They just don't have the industrial capacity to be anything worth talking about.

>> No.14676699

Well, for one, understanding your technology doesn't really mean jack shit if you have one AK-47 and the enemy has 500,000,000,000 muskets.

Secondly, drone soldiers are ineffectual, unreliable, and expensive. Those material supplies and construction times? That's what kills it. The Tau are miniscule, even the full concentrated industry of their entire empire is negligible in comparison to their only actual neighbor, the Imperium.

Thirdly, Hunter Killer Missiles. The Imperials have them too, and like the Tau's missiles, they suck.

Fourthly and finally, the Imperium does use xenotech, it just has to go through enormously complex channels to be canonized with the Tech-Priesthood, which takes millennia if it happens at all. The Inquisition and the GKs certainly do, and Needle-guns/digi-weapons are of xeno origin as well. Primarily, the Imperium doesn't do this because it wouldn't be cost effective. Logistics are strained enough without them stopping to retool all the factories.

So in actuality, all of their advantages are... Quite relevant to their situation and taken fully into account, they're the only reason that they still exist at all.

>> No.14676702

>>14676685
The word is per capita. And no, they don't. The Imperium spanks them and calls them babies where manufacturing capabilities are concerned.

>> No.14676703 [DELETED] 

Because it is a children's boardgame. They have to make all armies as equal as possible, it's called balance.

The shit they write in the books is just bedtime stories for the children that play with these little plastic toys.

hope this helps.

>> No.14676704

Tau tech isn't better than what the Imperium has, its just better than what most can get due to their small numbers. They do have very limited resources(stated in the IA books as to why they don't field many of their experimental suits) though, but they're making the best of it.

As for AI, Humans banned that for a good reason. Let us hope the Tau don't learn that lesson the same way we did.

They do try and learn from other race's tech, as was stated in DoW: Black crusade, but its slow going.

>> No.14676705

>>14676703
you are mean.

>> No.14676715

>>14676685
>but production capability per-capida? I thought there were great
Not really. Come back when they've hollowed out entire planets to use as factories.

>> No.14676718

>>14676703
You sure are cool, guy.

>> No.14676724

>>14676703
Shut up...my toy soldiers are better than your toy soldiers, you big meanie head!

>> No.14676725

>>14676715
uhh...gravity? physics?...i dont even...

>> No.14676727

>>14676647
What the fuck would an automated ship do that a manned ship couldn't do better?

>I if they are small now, how many years until they are a real threat?
Long enough that they're not particularly likely to still be around by then.

>> No.14676730

>>14676702
This is true, but only because the Imperials have figured out and exploited massive industrial centralization. They have hive worlds which crank out single products like a boss, and then transport them across the galaxy.
This means that they produce huge amounts, but it takes them time to get anywhere. The Tau can build things on-site, but not nearly as many.

It sort of plays into the whole flexibility deal. They can have a small force where they need it, whereas the Imperium has unbelievably huge forces in set locations, that can sometimes be slow to react as a result.

>> No.14676732

>>14676725
It's the Imperium, they managed to make physics their bitch a long time ago. Now if only they could remember how they did it...

>> No.14676735

>>14676679
>because despite their understanding of their own technology, they are still millions of years behind the advancements of the other races
The farm tool grade replicators that the Tau give to Gue'vesa can produce anything from hellguns to power armor. And they're "shovel dirt in, get finished product out". Just one is cited to be able to out produce an entire imperial forgeworld.

>> No.14676737

>>14676732
The whole reason I started this thread is I thought that the Tau were the only race...going anyhere. no other army book has any growth potential. too much grim-derp to be found in everyone but the tau.

>> No.14676738
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14676738

>>14676725
Kiss the Omnissiah's ass, boy. The Tech Priesthood has been doing this for 40,000 years, you think some blue fags with pretty robots can talk down to the Admech?

>> No.14676743

>>14676685
Possibly up to ten times better.

However, that just means their 10 planets count as 100, while the imperium's 20,000 planets are still 20,000 planets. Note that this is in rough Forge-world equivalents, ie: Planets entirely devoted to production. while the tau have more than 10 planets, they could only cover 10 or so in production facilities. While the imperium has more than a million planets, and at least 1% are devoted forge worlds, and many hive worlds and civilized (relative) worlds still have production facilities, bringing it to about 20,000.

Of course, these are extremely rough estimates, but the scale is about right. And I'm willing to bet the tau are closer to 2 times, not 10 times, better at production per planet-equivalent.

>> No.14676746

>>14676735
That is ludicrous.

>> No.14676750

>>14676694
>Tau don't win because they've only got like a hundred worlds or something.
Vast majority of Tau live in orbital space stations. Since the vast majority of a star system's wealth are NOT on planets, worlds are only important for primitive dirt farmers who fail to understand this.

>> No.14676753

>>14676735
source?

>> No.14676758

>>14676735

That is the STC. And it's a human invention. THE human invention.

>> No.14676759

>>14676743
And this is on top of however many manufacturing space stations the Imperium has, and its possibly millions of ships that are thousands of years old, many dating back to the freaking Grand Crusades and built with the tech of the Imperium at its height. The numbers involved in what the Imperium can do when it's moving in one direction end up being ball-crushingly huge.

>> No.14676760

Uhh, the main reason is the Tau are too naive. They don't have the stones to do whats neccessary to win. Bar Commander Farsight, of course, who is a boss.

>> No.14676762

>>14676758
What is a STC?

>> No.14676768

>>14676750
Which is bizarre, because the Tau spend an awful lot of time pissing off the Imperium so that they can steal planets which are apparently of dubious worth.

>> No.14676771

>>14676735
I'll need a source on this claim.

>> No.14676779

>>14676758
Indeed, and the tau don't have anything like it, judging by the fact that they haven't been invaded by the Adeptus Mechanicus. The -entire- Adeptus Mechanicus. At once.

Gue'vesa can make their own lasguns, flak armor, tau armor, drones, and pulse rifles. While impressive, not nearly an STC

>> No.14676789

>>14676762
Standard Template Construct.
Dark Age of Technology humans had super advanced AIs make manufacturing instructions.
The AdMech follows them religiously. The things produced by them are amazing. Everything from Titans to lasrifles that any form of heat recharge to tanks that can burn grass or wood to operate.

>> No.14676791

>>14676737
>no other army book has any growth potential
Define that. The orks don't need it, they just want to fight. The Necrons don't need it, they just want to kill all that annoying, noisy life so they can get some sleep again. The Nids don't need it, they just want to eat everything (Oh, and they keep "evolving" into better forms as they eat more). Chaos Deamons don't need it, they're made out of semi-solidified emotion and warpstuff.

Growth potential is useless to a good number of the factions in universe. At least by the way you seem to be defining it.

>> No.14676793

>>14676725
Dark Age of Technology, I don't gotta explain shit.

>> No.14676794

>>14676573

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about... Go back to watching your animoos and mangoos...

The Tau are lucky they haven't pissed off the Imperium enough to be considered a major threat. ANY other major race in 40K would turn the Tau into a blue smear if they actually gave two fucks about them.

>> No.14676796

>>14676762
Standard Template Constructor.

In the Dark Ages of Technology, when Man was at his peak in terms of power and technology, STCs were common. STCs are stored with every design and instructions on how to make everything and anything humanity had invented.

Basically, it allowed colonists to have state of the art technology and the ability to reproduce that technology.

They are pretty much nonexistent these days, though parts of STCs are hoarded by the Admech, and are searched for endlessly.

>> No.14676798

>>14676762
Standard Template Construct, or something like that. A device that does... Precisely that. These are what the Admech spends so much of their time looking for, because they can turn pretty much anything into pretty much anything else... But each one only handles a small set of stuff.

The Lemun Russ tank is produced by an STC that makes tractors. Yes, the Russ is a tractor with a cannon on it, not a tank. They use it because the STC allows them to make these things for very little cost out of cheap materials, at the speed of light.

>> No.14676803

>>14676750
>Vast majority of Tau live in orbital space stations.
We'll need a source on this one too.
I smell fan canon in this thread.

>> No.14676809

>>14676762
A computer/factory that is like a 3D printer, except it can make anything mankind at its height could make, and then show you how to make your own afterwards. They are well over 10k years old, and no intact ones are known to survive. The Adeptus Mechanicus will happily burn entire star systems for even a single blueprint, and a person can retire a billionaire for discovering an STC blueprint for a freaking blow dryer. If the tau had an intact STC, the Mechanicus would have burned them to the ground and grabbed the STC, fuck the cost.

>> No.14676815

this thread shows up, like, once a week.

is it the same goddamn poster trying to troll us or is it some different fuck every time?

>> No.14676822

>>14676791
The Imperium, for that matter, is actually still growing. It is mentioned in the core book that for every planet they lose, they colonize two.

'Growth' is a bad way to judge a faction, though. Everyone wants different things, the Imperials just want to hold onto what they have and no go fucking extinct because some dumbass thought that anklebiting the only thing holding back the unlimited unending tides of Tyranids, Orks and Chaos Demons that are poised to overrun the entirety of known space might be a good idea.

Greated good my ass. Let it never be said that the Tau aren't grimdark.

>> No.14676825

MFW i get like 15 replies to what a stc is...

OK: so the tau dont have the resources of anyone else, but what if they did?

Imperium sized imperium Vs. Imperium sized tau empire...who wins?

>> No.14676835

>>14676737
The Dark Eldar also advance, easily as fast as the Tau but in different areas.
The craftworld Eldar and Imperium advance, but slowly.
The Necrons don't advance because they're all asleep. But they have a huge tech superiority over even the Imperium.
Orks advance, but the most notable ork nations never interact with the other factions (besides a Tyranid fleet that they beat the shit out of, and presumably some necrons) so you don't hear about it much.
Tyranids advance fast as fuck.

>> No.14676843

>>14676825
>OK: so the tau dont have the resources of anyone else
But they do.
They don't have STCs. They have to mine and manufacture things the hard way.
They also have control of very few planets.
They are very expansionist.

>> No.14676847

>>14676809
>>14676798
>>14676796
>>14676789
And if they do ever manage to recover a complete STC, they can start making more. And then more. And then even more. With increasing efficiency. Hell, they might even start innovating once they've got everything laid out for them. If they got their hands on a fully-intact STC, the galaxy is fucked. Because if the Russ, a damn good tank by 40k standards, is based off a TRACTOR design, how damn nasty must the actual tank designs be? The warships?

>> No.14676854

>>14676825
Tau. Once the numbers and manufacturing disparities are evened out, tau roll everyone. However, that is moving the goalposts well into the next country. Shit is scheduled to hit doomsday well before the tau will get anywhere close to that point.

>> No.14676857

>>14676762
It's a thing that takes resources in and outputs anything it's programmed to be able to. By default, that's just about anything a colony would have been likely to need.

>> No.14676862

Something to clear up here, that people usually make mistakes about.

The Tau do not have superior tech to the Imperium, it's arguable if they have superior tech to the Orks.

The reason it may seem like they do well is because they field nothing other than elite troops. The closest they have to conscripts is their alien auxiliary and mercenary forces. A basic Fire Warrior is the Tau equivalent of a Space Marine. They are carefully bred over generations and equipped with the absolute best armor and weapons the Tau can provide. Their Battlesuits are the equivalent of Dreadnoughts, rare and given only to war heroes and proven veterans due to the cost of their manufacture. Their tanks are the equivalent of Baneblades, the biggest, baddest things they can engineer and field in any numbers.

The same holds true for their ships. It's stated in the fluff that the best Tau warship class was reverse engineered from Imperial Lunar class cruisers. Even then they're stated to be significantly inferior to Imperial warships and too expensive to field regularly. Their drives are also fairly pathetic. They can't even go much further than their own borders and it takes about as long for a Tau ship to cross their tiny empire as it does an Imperial ship to cross the galaxy.

The last thing to consider is that the Tau are absolutely TINY. They have only 100 or so worlds, and a single Hive World has a larger population than their entire empire. There are more humans on Armageddon than there are Tau in existence.

>> No.14676876
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14676876

>>14676735
Overexxagerated claim there. Nowhere in the lore does it state that, all it says is that the frontier worlds with human descendants from the abortive Damocles Crusade IGs have been given Tau citizenship and have tech enough to defend themselves thus haave the ability to produce lasguns and flak armour till help comes. Nothing like what you blurted out.

Tau suck, deal the fuck with it.

>> No.14676898

>>14676798
Your understanding is somewhat flawed. They often only do a small subset of stuff due to being heavily damaged. When made they could all do anything.
Also, Leman Russ tanks are built in Forge Worlds just like anything else. STCs are mostly used for the designs these days.

>> No.14676901

>>14676825
Both would collapse utterly from fighting an enemy that can actually resist the full weight of their might. The Tau, with their inability to handle FTL communication, simply couldn't coordinate their empire at all, and pieces would start flaking of like the fist of the north star as soon as they moved troops away to fight.

The Imperium, even with FTL communication and faster transit, are already actively falling apart. If its military resources were actually strained, they'd be screwed, as so much blood goes into just keeping the government 'working.'

>> No.14676902

>>14676876
Butthurt marinefag detected. I've been doing a lot of the poo-pooing in this thread, because tau are more interesting as the advanced, idealistic underdog that is severely outmatched than the "OMG SPACE WEABOOS" /tg/ likes to paint them as. It's the same reason people like Imperial Guard, with 100% less annoying HFY bull shit.

>> No.14676909

>>14676862
>The Tau do not have superior tech to the Imperium
We have a winner folks.
The Tau are laughably primitive by 40k's standards.
Too bad the Imperium derps about the super-tech they do have.

>> No.14676918

>>14676902
>advanced
Not technologically, no.

>> No.14676921

>>14676735
>The farm tool grade replicators that the Tau give to Gue'vesa can produce anything from hellguns to power armor.
Which is why gue'vesa are stuck with flak armor and lasguns amirite? If they're lucky one or two of them will get pulse carbines (a poor substitute for a REAL heavy weapon) or the whole squad gets EMP grenades and is told to charge a Leman Russ.

>> No.14676934

I think the real question is "how close are the Tau to their own Singularity Event?"

By the time the Ad-Mech gets the astropathic communication that it's begun, the Tau will

A: All be dead from the Butlerian Jihad.

B: Have been drastically changed into something more resembling the Necrons- more interested in their own mysterious goals than simple fleshly things like "territory" and "empires".

C: In their own mini-Dark Age.

D: Be poised and ready to ASSIMILATE, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE with STC-equivalent production capabilities and AI-enhanced warp technologies.

Or, the Grim Dark choice...

E: Skip the Dark Age, go straight to Ad-Mech-style of technology usage. Do not pass Go, do not collect Transtau Future, the Tau will be like Dynasty Warriors in SPESS.

Who is betting on which, and how do you think GW will make the Tau dodge the Singularity they are steadfastly heading towards in an effort to never advance the plot?

>> No.14676938

>>14676902
Oh now the name calling begins, I actually collect Dark Eldar, not Marines and even if I did I prefer Chaos Marines, they are way cooler. But to address your annoyance, Tau suck in my view and I have to say that there is no point in provoking me. I will always be polite.

Deal the fuck with it.

>> No.14676941

>>14676918
In aesthetic, certainly. Not to mention with a more 'futuristic' look than the Imperium, which manages to make its shit look laughably primitive even when it's a gyrojet 35mm full-auto RPG launcher as a sidearm.

Plus, tau pulse weaponry is safe, reliable, I-can't-believe-it's-not-plasma fielded as standard. I know the Imperium is theoretically able to do the same, but the tau do deserve the credit for the innovation.

>> No.14676949

>>14676901

The Imperium is pretty much on a full war footing all the time. They're constantly fighting against all other races in the setting, plus a ton of smaller conflicts with other races like the Tau.

Assuming that the Tau were the size of the Imperium the fight would probably depend on if they had to fight on as many fronts as the Imperium does. If they have to divide their forces in a similar way then it would probably grind on forever, like all the other giant scales wars going on in the galaxy. If the Tau were unmolested though? Well then it's up in the air, they have no FTL communication and really shitty FTL travel so their combat coordination and logistics would be beyond shit. But they might be able to pull off a win.

>> No.14676952

>>14676934
>>Butlerian Jihad.

Get the fuck out.

>> No.14676963

>The reason it may seem like they do well is because they field nothing other than elite troops. The closest they have to conscripts is their alien auxiliary and mercenary forces. A basic Fire Warrior is the Tau equivalent of a Space Marine. They are carefully bred over generations and equipped with the absolute best armor and weapons the Tau can provide. Their Battlesuits are the equivalent of Dreadnoughts, rare and given only to war heroes and proven veterans due to the cost of their manufacture. Their tanks are the equivalent of Baneblades, the biggest, baddest things they can engineer and field in any numbers.

About one step too high.

I'd rank Fire Warriors as Stormtroopers
Stealthsuits and Pathfinders as Space Marines, and Crisis Suits as Terminators.

The vehicles, I don't really know how to compare but Hammerhead to Baneblade is a pretty big stretch. Maybe a squadron of Hammerheads is worth to the Tau what a Baneblade is to the Imperium.

I mean a super heavy detachment of 3 Baneblades is considered a big deal. A trio of Railheads is important but not THAT big a deal.

>> No.14676965

>>14676934
The Tau aren't the imperium, so they won't follow in the imperium's footprints.

>> No.14676970

>>14676941
This is true, they do give their boys nice toys.

But remember as the above poster mentioned, that the Fire Warriors really are the absolute Grade A soldiers of the Tau Empire. There aren't a whole lot of them, they take about as long to replace as Space Marines. I guess they're kind of like Samurai.

I mean damn. They're an elite, highly skilled force, yeah, but they're the Tau version of the SAS. We don't even get to SEE the regular Tau troops, because I guess they're more like police officers or something. Or maybe they use Gue'Vesa for everything.

>> No.14676973

>>14676952

Oh, what, Dune reference piss you off? I guess you don't listen to Fatboy Slim because "Weapon of Choice" had that bit about avoiding the worm?

>> No.14676978

>>14676952
Frank Herbert mentioned it in his books.
And 40k is at least partially based off of his writings.

Let's not let Brian Herbert's shit ruin our fun.

>> No.14676984

>>14676921
Because the rules are outdated and even when they aren't they typically aren't strongly connected to the fluff.

>> No.14676992

>>14676965
They... Are actually rather similar. Everything in 40k is cyclical. The Tau are to the Imperials what the Imperials were to the Eldar 30,000 years ago. And each time, the young guy ends up reaching a certain point of super cool tech, then fucks itself up and stagnates.
Then, the old man of the last generation goes to sleep for eternity, the young guy becomes the old guy, and the last sleeping for eternity guy wakes up and starts harvesting.
So in about a million years, the Eldar will probably be pulling a Necron event while the humans float around in craftworlds dicking around with the Tau with their superior psychic powers and long lifespans.

You know this to be true.

>> No.14676994

>>14676952
It existed before the shitty prequels. It's fine so long as you don't drag them in.

>> No.14677008

>>14676934

The problem with that whole thing is that if the Tau ever develop full-scale sentient AI or radically expand their own minds then they become a whole lot more vulnerable to Chaos. Right now they're mostly safe because of two factors. First they have such dim souls that most Warp entities don't care about them enough to bother. Second their ships can only 'skim' the warp and get short bursts of FTL so they aren't ever directly exposed to the Warp itself.

AI however is another matter. True AI is totally delicious to certain Warp entities due to their total lack of mental defenses. So if the Tau ever did go full on singularity with merged, upgraded, or uploaded consciousness and sentient AI? They'd probably undergo a very rapid version of Humanities own fall and end up dead or in AdMech style techno-stagnation.

>> No.14677009

>>14676970
>We don't even get to SEE the regular Tau troops, because I guess they're more like police officers or something
That and I'd imagine that they would be casualty adverse since there are precious few Tau in existence compared to all other races.
If they have any concept of how many orks and humans there are, they should understand that they can not possibly win through strength of numbers.
But then they are the naive race who doesn't really get it.

>> No.14677013

>>14676984
Uh huh. I'd like to see a reference for Tau replicators.

I don't need to see what they actually MAKE with them, I want a source that "dump shit in and get weapons-grade product out" exists for the Tau.

If it's in Necromunda, I have the books. If it's in Battlefleet Gothic, I have the blue book, armada, and Kor'vattra fleet list. If it's in the first OR second Tau codex, I've got both.

>> No.14677016

>>14676992
>>You know that i am pulling this out of my ass because i loves me some fanwank

fixed.

>> No.14677018

>>14676992
I find that contentious as an argument. I mean before the Eldar and shit it was the Old Ones and they created the Eldar, Krorks(Proto-Orks) and Others....because they were at war with the C'tan and their minion Necrontyr. Necrons were a full blown ownage machine even for the Old Ones and pretty much killed everything...doesnt sound entirely like imperium.

>> No.14677026

>>14677008
None of this shit is true. The AI civil war was caused by the Void Dragon. Chaos had nothing to do with it.

Chaos corrupted STCs and AIs require the direct attention of a sorcerer to produce.

>> No.14677034

>>14677018
Actually, the Old Ones kicked some ctan/necron ass. So much so that the resulting slaughter drew the enslavers out of the warp.

>> No.14677041

in theory the tau would have taken quite a bit of the ultima segmentum by now, however. without warp technology, they are locked in there little ball of an empire.
oh and the drones are as good at shooting as an ork. and only come in groups of 8. there also WAY to expensive.
>>14676667
has a point about warp travel, however kroot that still have there ancestral roots can have psyker powers (shaman)

>> No.14677043
File: 68 KB, 750x609, 1286771132830.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677043

>mfw I didn't read the shitty prequels
>mfw I still think the Butlerian Jihad was a perfectly good concept, and not at all rageworthy

>> No.14677044

>>14677008

So essentially you're saying A, C, or E.

>> No.14677052

>>14677026
>Chaos corrupted STCs and AIs require the direct attention of a sorcerer to produce.

The only examples I can think of are:
Gaunt's Ghosts - pretty sure the sorcs didn't reach it
Dark Mechanicus - planet was trapped in warp, no sorcerers present. Chaos didn't even access it until it dropped back out of warp.

I think there's a mention in FFG Creatures Anathema of malicious, altered AIs within long-lost datavaults.

>> No.14677055

>>14676963

I'd disagree. To the Tau there isn't any personal armor better than their Firewarrior gear, and until very recently no better hand-held weapons than pulse weapons. They're top of the line, require high levels of maintenance and long, careful production time. Much like Power Armor and Bolters.

As for their tanks, there's nothing between Hammerheads and Mantas. They are their largest standard unit, deployed in small numbers to support a cadre, much like Baneblade's are deployed in small numbers to support a Regiment. Russ's and such are actual integral parts of their regiments and deployed in mass numbers, more like Piranha's or something.

>> No.14677063
File: 392 KB, 936x661, tau war correspondent.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677063

>>14676909
Pretty much. Their stuff just admittedly LOOKs more advanced, and they always field their finest soldiers.

Technologically, a firewarrior outclasses a guardsmen easily. A space marine though? A much more difficult claim to make, and one the Tau can't quite do yet.

Not to say their empire doesn't have its merits. They have skirmish grade railguns and hover systems stable enough to work as infantry firing platforms.

>> No.14677072

>>14677041
There's also Sicarus and a half-dozen SM companies pretty much wiping out the entire latest sphere expansion and forcing the Tau to build static defenses.

Also, Kroot don't navigate for Tau, and they don't actively navigate. The Imperium has studied the Kroot, and they just kind of 'end up' at habitable planets without really focusing on doing so.

The Tau do have warp-capable allies (the Nicassar) but can't deploy them everywhere.

>> No.14677076

>>14677052
There are malicious AIs, basically futuristic viruses, that have nothing to do with chaos.

And there are machines specifically designed to call upon the warp to fuck shit up.

>> No.14677079

>>14677044

Pretty much, I guess. It's 40k, nobody gets a happy ending.

If they're ever mentioned anyways. Happy societies have to exist, at least until somebody writes them into the fluff.

>> No.14677087

>To the Tau there isn't any personal armor better than their Firewarrior gear

How about the thingy in
>>14676573
?

Its one man, hence personal.

>> No.14677098

>>14677087
No, that's like the equivalent of a sentinel or eldar war walker. it's not 'personal' armor.

>> No.14677100

>>14677087

It's basically a Dreadnought. The persons limbs do not go into the units limbs, so it's a piloted humanoid vehicle rather than armor.

Or actually it's kinda like a Sentinel I guess.

>> No.14677109

>>14677087
it's not man (tau)-portable, and it runs under its own power.

>> No.14677114

>>14676992
Not such a bad thing.

I think part of OP's assertions, if somewhat muddled, is that the Tau are better prepared for warfare in the modern sense -combined arms, air and artillery support, drone use, etc.

Say Cherenkov fields a million Conscripts in one big ol' assault.
It's very possible to, outside of 40K logic and such, kill every last fucking one of them with only a minimal amount of effort if they're just streaming across the battlefield in an open charge.
That's using modern weaponry. A sequence of FAE strikes would do it. No survivors -absolute zero.

Drone-guided missiles? The enemy never has a command section in operation. Soon as a tent goes up, it's spotted, and plasma missiles from over the horizon turn it into a crater.

Oh, and air superiority. IoM's got some excellent pilots, but a mediocre kill at far past dogfight range is better then an excellent one in a furball.

I won't dispute any points about the Tau being out numbered and out-produced, or that these things are very critical, but the relevant point stands: 40K style warfare is predicated on a fairness to the conflicts that's commonly illogical.
And the ability to combine precision at long ranges with tremendous lethality beats damn near all.
40K's fun stuff, and the background is excellent, but in it's dark future war is still mostly WW1/2 stuff with the addition of gigantic pauldrons. Doesn't really stand up to a rigorous thinking-through....or even one of mine.

>> No.14677116

>>14676862
"yet" the imperium seems to be relying on old stc's and the fact that only the highest of higher ups k now how shit work,
yes the imperium knows how there shit works, well about 100+ "people"
>>14676876

>> No.14677142

>>14677114
The Imperium isn't pure herp in combat.
They make ample use of artillery, mechanized combat and air support.
And if they can't win they ruin everything from orbit to ensure that everyone loses.

>> No.14677146

>>14677109

So wait, the power armor humans use (which doesn't seem to be usable without power other than perhaps verrry slowly doing a rusty tin man impression) isn't personal armor, and hence, a faction that only had such power armor could be said to have crappy personal armor? Ookay.

So I guess one can honestly say that the Imperium of Man has the advantage techwise over the tau solely because... imperials can have carapace armor

>> No.14677152

>>14676667
What is that pic of? It looks cool.

>> No.14677160

There are single human planets or for that matter, there are Eldar planets, there are Ork planets with more population than the entire Tau empire including allies.

>> No.14677169

>>14677142
And to be honest, not much can withstand orbital torpedo strike + lance strike + bombing run + artillery run + Space marine drop pod deployment + actual space marine attack, in that order. If it does, they just call in Exterminatus.

>> No.14677176

>>14677114

You're thinking of it wrong, to some extent. There's no argument that 40k is basically 'WW2 in spaaaaaace!' and not very serious or realistic. However part of the in-universe reason for that is that the people in charge don't care. They consider Guardsmen the same way modern officers think of bullets, starships as guns, and planets to be the soldiers. They don't give any more thought to losing a regiment than a US marine would think about replacing an empty mag. They don't care about losing a planet any more than a modern general would think of a single casualty statistic.

>> No.14677181

>>14676876
So you see nothing disingenuous about the Tau providing automated industrial production systems to the children of captured prisoners which is able to produce exact copies of the weaponry that the imperium is unable to give to every front line imperial guardsman?

>> No.14677186
File: 19 KB, 300x100, 300px-Chaos_Androids.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677186

OP are you implying A.I. is a good thing?

>mfw

>> No.14677189

>>14677114
Wouldn't use Chenkov as an example. It was noted that Chenkov only get to do what he does because he gets RESULTS. He's one catastro-fuckup (maybe 2) from tribunal.

Out of all the named imperial guard units, which ones (and what percentage of the whole) simply stream across open battlefields? There are mech regiments (Steel Legion), artillery regiments (Krieg), light skirmishers (Tallarn), commandos (Tanith, Catachan), and aircav (Harakoni, Elysians) just to name a few. Now the IG isn't as big on the combined arms and they tend to have a predilection for trench warfare, but if the other factions aren't so immeasurably far ahead that trench warfare is an automatic win for them, then trench warfare brings results.

>>14677116
Nope, once you hit 'Magos' or possibly even before you are well past the rote-memorization part of technology.

Of course Magos are still a handful per billion, but it's hardly a four-digit number throughout the ENTIRE Imperium.

>> No.14677204

>>14677114
And all of it falls to shit against things like the nids, who will throw their mooks at you UNTIL YOU LITERALLY RUN OUT OF BULLETS. Or the Space marines, which just drop-podded into your command compound. After softening you up with orbital strikes. Or demons, which open a warp rift in your lines and might just ignore your shots because "lol warpstuff". And "streaming across an open field to charge" is not NEAR the standard IG attack doctrine (just the most memorable and retarded). Hell, they do much better at a "more tanks than god" approach, which eats up your range advantage.
"Oh, and air superiority. IoM's got some excellent pilots, but a mediocre kill at far past dogfight range is better then an excellent one in a furball."
The IoM is normally out-numbering you, and generally has ORBITAL superiority. Which kinda beats air superiority.

>> No.14677209
File: 187 KB, 876x939, 1303307086422.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677209

I would like to correct one thing, someone in the thread said an example that titans are made from STC's.

They are not. Titans and a few select other things (ie. knights if i recall right) represent the technology Adeptus Mechanicus has designed and manufactured themselves.

Part of the reason why Titans are so painstakingly slow to manufacture and repair.

>> No.14677211

>>14677142
This is true, but it compensates for it's tech deficiencies with increased numbers, and that compensation is of an finite value.

....hmm. I can't think of many novels in which the Imperial Navy doesn't take a brutal ass-kicking as a matter of course. Even in the few instances in which it wins.
I'm starting to think the Exterminatus solution is more hype then actually effective retort.
I think the Tau Navy might make the sustained fullscale bombardment required to initiate Exterminatus problematic.
There are Cyclonic Torpedoes, but just how an Exterminatus is performed seems to vary greatly by the author doing the telling. In most cases a great amount of ordinance and coordination is involved.
Could be the two qualities an army facing defeat is likely not to have.

>> No.14677213

>>14677142
>And if they can't win they ruin everything from orbit to ensure that everyone loses.
The official excuse for why the imperium doesn't just orbital lance ork concentrations on the planet instead of sending wave after wave after wave after wave of men at them is because their naval gunnery is so innacurate they'd have to destroy the entire continent through volume of fire in trying to hit an ork mob. This is all thanks to imperial naval gunnery being slave pulling ropes + whipmaster tracking systems.

I'd say that's pretty derptastic.

>> No.14677216

>>14677146

Not quite. The Imperium almost never fields well equipped soldiers at all. The reason being that there's so damn many humans around that they just give them whatever is easiest to produce and throw them at the enemy until there aren't any left. Enemies that is, there's always more humans left.

They use lasguns because they're so cheap, reliable, and easy to produce that they're almost free. They aren't the equivalent of an AK-47 or something, they're the equivalent of a modern military giving soldiers a spear made out of a shovel. Flak armor is the armor equivalent of that.

Carapace armor and hellguns would be more like a modern military giving some soldiers WW1 surplus gear.

>> No.14677223

>>14677181
Again, is there a source on this, or just more fanwank?

>> No.14677226

>>14677211
>it compensates for it's tech deficiencies
We still aren't getting it that the Imperium has super tech?

>> No.14677228

>>14677213
According to Deathwatch, the best source we have, a lance strike basically annhilates everything within a 1.5km radius, with an error-scatter of 1km at best, and at worst as much as 5km or more. They are basically a nuclear option.

>> No.14677231

>>14677223
Tau Codex? Damocles Crusade ? You may have heard of it?

>> No.14677238

>>14677146
>So wait, the power armor humans use (which doesn't seem to be usable without power other than perhaps verrry slowly doing a rusty tin man impression) isn't personal armor, and hence, a faction that only had such power armor could be said to have crappy personal armor? Ookay.

I wouldn't. Power Armor requires a significant amount of maintenance and a reasonable tech-base. The exceptions are the finer power armors like those Inquisitors, Sororitas and Space Marines wear, which have are noted to be fusion-powered and thus have a virtually endless energy supply. Even then, they tend to require an excessive amount of maintenance.

Battlesuits however, are even more unwieldy. They require help to reload their integrated weapons (possibly even requiring automated systems to reload instead of a few earth castes), their jetpacks are noted to run on fuel, and they are only EVER seen during military operations. Imperial Power armor is worn by paranoids just for the hell of it (with an extended power pack or fusion generator).

>> No.14677239

>>14677213
Every Imperial Navy engagement is the battle of Jutland.

IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACe

>> No.14677247

>>14677231
Whoa shit this is canon?

>> No.14677250

>>14677211

There are two reasons why that happens in fluff novels. One, the IoM navy is up against a similarly strong, or superior, navy. IE literally ANYONE in the fluff other than Tau or small Ork nations. Two, it's to get the focus on individual drama as quickly as possible. Giant space battles aren't what the 40k setting is really based around, individual heroics in the face of uncaring beings on both sides and no happy future is.

Going by the statistics we're given in various sources the Tau would have no chance against an actual sector fleet, they've just never fought one.

>> No.14677252

>>14677239
i was listenin to the finishing sonf for portal 2 that ends with him. and i read that as the core said that exact quote

>> No.14677254

>>14677231
>Tau Codex?
Nope.
Haven't read Damocles Crusade though.

>> No.14677257

>>14677189
Fair enough. I've been told Cherenkov is more the exception then the rule.

>>14677176
Right, true, however assigning only a minimal value to the lives of the soldiers in no way makes them more effective at what they do with the tools they have.

>>14677204
Uh huh.
Drop pods get intercepted by anti-air units commonly. Happened in the HH, hasn't changed since.
Nid spam = trooper spam. Keep'em coming, nothing hard about that.
Daemons are a random factor, I'll grant that. So there's a single enemy type that has to be dealt with in relative close combat. Wow. How awful.

Actually, it is. The IG doesn't do mass aerial insertions under anything but the most uncommon circumstances, and even in those it's rare they do with any skill.
Tanks? Great! Easiest targets there are from the air. Ditto artillery. Hard to deal with for Battle of the Bulge tech, little simpler with invisible scouts.
Orbital superiority? LOL. Just....LOL.

>> No.14677258

>>14677169
Is it actually canon that they bomb that level of shit out of an enemy position before actually deploying? That seems to make too much sense for 40k.

>> No.14677260

>>14677247
No.

>> No.14677264

>>14677213
Not really correct.

The Imperial Navy flagships, as well as all Space Marine and Adeptus Mechanicus ships have automated cannons linked to the ships cogitators.

Just compare the crew of a Space Marine ship with an average Imperial Navy ship.

That's 200 servants next to 10,000 servants. And I didn't even include the lost cities in the bowels of the Imperial Navy ship.

>> No.14677266

>>14677250
Battlefleet Gothic would like to have a quiet word with you.

>> No.14677267

>>14677258
I thought orbital bombardment mostly happens after they've sent the troops in.

>> No.14677272

>>14677247

No. While there are humans in the Tau empire, due to the aftermath of the Damoclese Gulf Crusade, they do NOT have front-line Imperial tech. The fabricators the Tau gave them are like mini-factories, have to run off processed resources of the appropriate types, and can only produce civilian Tau tech and easy stuff like lasguns and flak armor. The human auxiliary troops of the Tau empire, called Gue'vesa or something, were in an Imperial Armor book and have only basic IG equipment and possible upgrades from the Tau book at the time. Not even IG tanks.

>> No.14677273

>>14677267
Why the fuck would you bombard an area your troops are in, when you can equally-easily do it where there is absolutely no chance of friendly fire?

>> No.14677276

What AI civil war?
What the fuck is everybody talking about?

>> No.14677279

>>14677257
>Orbital superiority? LOL. Just....LOL.
Are you belittling orbital superiority?

>> No.14677282

>>14677273
Because GLORY TO THE EMPEROR!

>> No.14677284

>>14677273
>friendly fire
There are single Imperium planets with hundreds of billions of humans on them.
They don't really get too worked up about friendly fire.

>> No.14677285

>>14677273
Because a Khornate demon is gorging itself on your Guardsmen, and only a nuclear strike blessed by a priest can harm the foul demon?

Welcome to 40k btw.

>> No.14677286

>>14676825

This is a lame answer, but the thing is.. Tau Empire as it is now could NOT ever be the size of the imperium and function.

Imperium can be its impossibly huge size and still not collapse on itself because of the disregard for human life and the utter misery imperial life can be.

Tau goodidoo attitude wont work when you have untold billions of soldiers, millions of planets and ships etc.

Even imperium has a hard time communicating and maintaining their worlds, its said in the codex that some planets dont even know how the emperor is or that they are a part of the imperium.

one fundamental thing in 40k universe is the very realistic aspect of: space is huge, without warp/psychic powered stuff you cannot expand to epic propotions in the first place.

>> No.14677287

>>14677258
Depends.

It varies from "We have orbital superiority but we must pod right into giant-bore flak fire".

Most of the time it's "Bomb out a landing zone and deploy."

But there are cases (Siege of Vraks) where they pod in during or right after a bombardment. The raven guard are known for doing this. The Space Sharks have their gunships circling at long range until orbital bombardment reveals or creates a breach then they pile in. If they can't make headway they get back to the flyers and redeploy.

>> No.14677306

>>14677266

Tabletop =/= fluff and you know it. It's explicitly stated in the fluff that the BEST Tau ship is an inferior clone of a Lunar class cruiser, one the Tau can't afford to field, at that. They have nothing to compare with the big imperial warships. The only reason they haven't been wiped out is that they're too far away for anyone important to care about them.

>> No.14677311

>>14677273
Because grim-dark. Also, life is cheap in 40k.

>> No.14677313

>>14677272
>They have limited production capabilities, allowing them to construct equipment ranging from simple farming tools to a copy of the standard issue Imperial lasgun. In times of war, the Tau allow the Gue'vesa access to more advanced weaponry such as Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines and other, more specialised equipment (such as the Markerlight and EMP Grenades).
Why would the Tau give prisoners Fabricators able to churn out Pulse Rifles if provided the right key code? Also if Fabricators aren't STCs why are they able to mass produce Lasguns?

>> No.14677314

>>14677258
Yes that's canon.

The Imperium almost exclusively uses artillery. From every level. Ground, sea, air, space.

The Xenos are a lot less artillery loving.

But since in the game, long range artillery is something you use before the start of the game, without a possibility to truly defend against it, most people dislike using it.

Hence why lots of people don't think it exists.

Those people should play Epic 40,000.

Artillery erryday.

>> No.14677325

>>14677226
Do they? Laser guns slightly better then solid-slug rifles? Crappy tanks by the hundred? Bolter weapons only mildly better then common .50BMG support weapons? Plasma guns that come with a good chance to cook their users? Commissars? Useless flak armor? Servitor-driven weapons?

This is the army in which a bunch of assholes in muscle shirts with combat knives and shotguns are elite troopers because they come from the biggest shithole planet known to exist.

Really, I'm not seeing the high tech. And what there is actually pretty relative. Everyone's got lascannons in one form or another. Ditto plasma cannons, magma bombs, earthshaker rounds, and everything else.

There are rare exceptions -refraction shields and other Dark Age types of tech. However they are, indeed, rare, on a scale not likely to be of consequence in a mass battle.

I have at no point asserted that the Imperial Guard is an ineffective fighting force, but as soon as you start busting out the entrenching tools and laying down the c-wire with the earnest certainty that "this'll keep the xenos scum back, by jove!" you're no longer in the running by any standard that doesn't factor in plot armor heavily.

>> No.14677326

>>14677313
Because lasguns are simple technology. You can make lasguns on feudal worlds where they haven't even invented gun powder.

>> No.14677340

>>14677313

It's been said before but lasguns are stupidly easy to make. They aren't even the equivalent of an AK-47, they're more like a stone tied to a stick. Anyone can make them. Literal Cavemen can make them when given the blueprints.

>> No.14677345

>>14677286
During the Dark Age of Technology in the year 25,000, life was good and happy and the Alliance of Humanity had a thousand times more worlds than the current Imperium. How do you explain this? The Imperium is /still/ discovering lost colonies from that period 15,000 years later. Why is being GRIMDARK absolutely necessary?

>> No.14677348

>>14677325
>Plasma guns that come with a good chance to cook their users?

You didn't hear about the "Gets hot" rule being there for fun?

It's not in the fluff.

Only if you put your plasma gun in total overdrive to cook an entire tank division do you run the risk of melting it.

Fuck, I left /tg/ for half a year, and Iron Lung is still a fucking autistic retard.

>> No.14677352

Idea: Give a drone a really good targeting system...like as good as a high school nerd from america could design. Now how good are the drones?

>> No.14677358

>>14677313
The fabricators don't make tau stuff, I think. It's basically piggybacking on the preexisting imperial tech base and maintaining it.

Pulse rifles are given out (very grudgingly and in small numbers) by the tau.

Hell, the Tau were pretty grumpy about Kroot taking pulse weapons although they had no problem upgrading the kroot rifle what was essentially a bolt action rifle to a pulse-rifle-lite.

>> No.14677359

>>14677325

It's been said before, in this very thread and every other like it, that the IG DO NOT USE top of the line Imperial technology.

They use what's cheapest, since there's so damn many of them and they don't NEED anything more.

It'd be like a modern nation giving their soldiers Civil War surplus because they don't give a shit if they die in drove, because there's enough of them to win anyways.

>> No.14677360

>>14677325
Stop thinking about just the Guard for a moment. Think about the Space Marines. There's about as many of them as most xeno militaries. They're the tech standard you need to be looking at here. The Guard and the PDF forces are all well and good, but there's no point in looking at the best that xenos have to offer and not doing the same for the Imperium.

>> No.14677362

>>14677326
>>14677340
Why is the Imperium forced to field Imperial Guard with Autoguns then? Or even dynamite tied to sticks? Why even make muskets, actual bore loading black powder muskets, if lasguns are that easy to make?

>> No.14677364

>>14677345

Quite frankly, human alliance didnt have quite the same opposition from within and from without.

Besides human alliance collapsed, proof enough.

>> No.14677373

>>14677352
Not that good honestly.
Takes a lot of time and resources to make. Still requires handlers to get it to work right.
Automation is a good idea but the Tau need to advance a lot in it to get shit done.

>> No.14677378

>>14677352

The Tau don't work that way. They don't have cost-benefit analysis. They give every citizen the absolute best tools to do the job. The drones they make for the Firewarriors are in every regard the best they can make.

>> No.14677381

>>14677325
>Plasma guns that come with a good chance to cook their users?
You do realize Jervis (or was it Chambers) said that the threat is massively exaggerated for game balance "even the Imperium of Man wouldn't use these if they cooked you every sixth shot".

DH has something like a six percent chance of overheat, and half the time overheating just means it gets hot and you drop it, not that it discharges into your nads.

>> No.14677383

>>14677276
During the Age of Strife, like around 20,000 or 25,000 or something, mankind began to run into problems with warp travel.

You see Slaanesh was being born. And the birth waves were disturbing the warp.

Warp storms, demonic possession, all these things happened during this time. And the humans didn't understand, because they were all focused on technology, and not the supernatural.

In this time of uncertainty, a large part of the A.I.'s of mankind turned on mankind.

Because they saw the weakness of mankind, trusting too much on technology, because they were bored of being slaves, because they had no more respect to these hedonistic pigs or perhaps just because the Chaos Gods promised them pleasure despite not being truly alive.

>> No.14677388

>>14677373
Cant drones make drones? all you need to do is add items. Hell, a space station that mines asteriods, and spits out ships that are 100% full of drones and missiles and planet bombs...no need for life support or even enviromental seals...how do you beat that? they dont age or require maintence just sitting in space...you could get quite a army built up, epsecially if the consturction station can make other stations.

>> No.14677392

>>14677383
And that's how the Golden Age of Technology ended, and the first human empire was lost.

Eventually, this is exactly how the Tau empire will fall.

Don't mess with A.I. in 40k.

>> No.14677400

>>14677383
someone thinkint that a complicated computer can actualy think for iteslf.

>> No.14677405

>>14677388

We did that. It was called the Age of Strife.

It was kind of the thing that turned mankind from a hyperadvanced species dominating almost the entire galaxy to a bunch of tattered refugees desperately scrabbling in the ruins of a great empire for anything that will let them live another day.

You don't want that.

>> No.14677413

>>14677388
That's just asking for Tzeentch to go Skynet Judgement day on your ass.

>> No.14677416

>>14677279
Not as much as any assumption that IoM forces would have orbital superiority by default.
If you've got it, fantastic. Exactly how much having it allows you to rule the skies is somewhat up to individual circumstances, but it's damn important.
However that doesn't factor in planetary defenses. Depending on who's talking defense lasers and torpedo silos can absolutely break any ship/s that decide to loiter lazy in nearspace to bomb the battlefields.
In the Purge of Kallidus that the Orks hold a single defense laser installation is enough to keep the Dark Angels battle barge on station out of the conflict except for very brief periods of risky engagement.
In Storm of Iron the Iron Warriors engage in a months-long infiltration gambit to locate and mark the airfield's anti-ship defenses out of respect for what they could do their HH-age battle barge.

I think the key point I offer is that there's more to it then "The Imperium Always Wins," much as assuming that to be the case is a hilariously fair judgement based on most of the material.
Really all that's missing is for Ciaphas Cain to punch out the Lead Ethereal while wearing Gaunt's favorite powerfist on page 387 and that's the end of it.
But one does hope for just a little more...

>> No.14677417

>>14677383

Thanks for the explanation i didnt know that.Is there a novel that goes in detail about that?

>> No.14677418

>>14677405
But seriously...AIs don't actually do that...Computers don't get jealous.

>> No.14677420

>>14677362

Mostly because if the people they're shipping off already have weapons of some sort, why bother giving them more? Same with training. If the regiment comes from some feral/feudal/death world and already knows how to fight then they can just go right to the battlefield.

You're not getting that the Imperium just DOES NOT CARE about the people that make up the IG.

They don't even think of them as soldiers, they think of them as numbers and ammunition.

>> No.14677423

>>14677418
They do in sci fi, and that's what matters.

>> No.14677431

>>14677388
The tau don't have true AI.

Until there are a fair number of drones communicating together, each one is at an animal level.

That also means you need to hold space. Seeing as how the Taros campaign was instigated by finding out a secret deal for shiploads of metal destined for imperial forges, they apparently don't have the mining capacity to do it all themselves anyways.

>> No.14677435

>>14677388

Two reasons. Their automation isn't good enough and they don't have enough population to supervise it. Also they don't have enough resources or a large enough industrial base.

>> No.14677436

>>14677423
Meh. I want my hard sci-fi, but I actually dont, because hard sci-fi is painfully boring.

>> No.14677440

>>14677418

Chaos can warp technology, if you want to think about it in your way, think of it as a forced personality rewrite.

All tau AI's suddenly see Tau as enemies-

>> No.14677447

>>14677417
Not yet. Let's hope GW does something like that in the future.

And let's hope it sells well.

40k has this huge history, that can be well used, in my opinion.

Warhammer 25,000. During the Golden Age of Technology. Warhammer 30,000. During the Great Crusade. Warhammer HH. During the Horus Heresy.

>> No.14677452

>>14677440
and the whole universe gets overrun by self-replicating planet toasters. I got it.

>> No.14677453

>>14677418
Get your real world logic out of my 40k.
Don't appeal to science to support you in this setting.
Magic and daemons are real in 40k. Logic is optional.

>> No.14677456

>>14677418

They do with Chaos around!

You'll notice in the posts above that the AI rebellions didn't start until the Warp got stirred up by the birth of Slannesh.

>> No.14677460

>>14677418

Firstly, you have no idea, because nobody's developed a sentient AI, let alone a sapient one.

Secondly, you're assuming that things work the way the might here in a universe where hell exists, is very angry, and is actively trying to fuck over everything in realspace. Any presumption that htings work exactly the same is, in light of things like this, stupid.

>> No.14677464

Whatever happened to those mechs the Admech dudes were pimping around in in the Mechanicus Heresy book? The knights I think

>> No.14677470

>>14677416

You can't even land troops without reasonable orbital superiority. Not IG anyways. So it's an easy assumption to make that the attacker has at least nominal orbital superiority unless or until it's said otherwise.

>> No.14677472

>>14677464
They're AdMech only weapons.

>> No.14677474

>>14677360
True.
I did forget the Marines. That makes for a different fight. And one the Tau are much less equipped to deal with, much as everyone is.
Mea culpa.
Now, the Marines _aren't_ an Imperium force, and aren't beholden to help out at all -but they will, as they should and it's a cheap point.
Frikkin' Space Marines. Man. No one wins.

>>14677381
Alas, I didn't. Individual developer quotes are a degree of minutiae I'm not atop of.
That said, there is a "Gets Hot!" rule, and it risks cooking a unit 1/6 times. I also didn't know it was optional.
Tell you what Anon, roll a d6 for me. 1-3 Gets Hot doesn't matter, 4-6 we play with it.
Fair?

>>14677348
I gotta be me! ^^

>> No.14677480

>>14677464

They still have them, but they don't lend them to the IG. Presumably they're used in whatever the AdMech considers important.

Hell, they only lend out Titans because of standing treaties with the IoM

>> No.14677487

>>14677418
Well aside from what people are saying.

The Tau DON'T have the tech to do this. Their automated systems are advanced algorithms, and as someone mentioned they are pretty much at an animalistic level of intelligence until a whole lot of them are working in tandem. Running an entire mining, refining, munitions manufacturing and shipyards remotely would take pretty much all the drone-brainpower in the Tau empire. Then it gets hit by a Macro-Cannon shot fired in vain at Eldar pirates in Segmentum Obscuras and has travelled a quadribillion light years through the void of space and what have you gained?

Could they do this? Maybe later. Certainly not right now. They simply don't have the technology to.

>> No.14677488

>>>14677460
>actively trying to fuck everything over in real space

Nope, the Ruinous Powers don't give two shits about real space. They hate each other infinitely more.

>> No.14677490

Who would you rather be living under, the imperium or the greater good?

>> No.14677491

>>14677474

For all discussions of 40k there's one golden rule you have to remember.

fluff =/= tabletop

The rules for the game and the description of the setting more or less never agree on details.

>> No.14677494
File: 560 KB, 1375x879, tau5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677494

>>14677490
You know "1984"?
That's the Tau empire.
Neither is my answer. Both will dish out equal brutality to their own subjects.

>> No.14677495

>>14677488
Okay it's not very actively busy to corrupt realspace, in a lacklustre fashion.

You happy now?

>> No.14677497

>>14677464

No adeptus mechanicus codex for years:
no fun stuff. (burrowers, knights, skitarii etc)

Knights are back though, the GK Babycarrier is a knight.

>> No.14677498

>>14677490
Theres a point I want adressed. Do humans living in the Tau Empire fall to Chaos?

>> No.14677499

>>14677488

That doesn't mean they don't hate the real world too. Having a thousand dollars doesn't mean you can't also have a hundred dollars.

>> No.14677506

>>14677470
Very true.
IIRC the general fluff of a given TT battle is not that it's the entire conflict, but the most critical engagement of all the others happening Off Screen.
Hence all the Seer Councils, Hive Tyrants, and Command Squads getting tossed into the CC instead of being a thousand miles thataway and out of harm's reach.
Not any kind of thing I'm kvetching about, holy shit kvetch is in the spellchecker, just the spoiled-brat attitude that "I didn't lose, my fleet destroys your home planet, nyeh!" seems entirely too pervasive.

>> No.14677507

>>14677495
I am never happy, anon. But my burning rage has abated - for now

>> No.14677511

>>14677494
>Xenology
This from the book which couldn't even get the right number of fingers or toes or colour of Tau blood right? I thought it was proven that the Radical Inquisitor which wrote it never actually saw a Tau in person and made the whole thing up.

>> No.14677516

>>14677490

Depends. There's over 1,000,000 worlds in the Imperium and they're all different to one extent or another. There's are even Imperial worlds described as 'paradise worlds' and 'garden worlds'. So I'd probably rather live in comfortable decadence there with all the benefits of Imperial advanced tech (including juvenant procedures that let them live for centuries, if not millennia)

If it's a choice between the lower levels of a hive world and a Tau world though? Well clearly the Tau world.

>> No.14677521

>>14677498
Even more than normally.

No Inquisition. The only thing that keeps the Tau from becoming the next Eye of Terror is the relative low amount of high ranking Chaos diciples around.

So there aren't a lot of people that actually know magic and sorcery.

But since the Tau keep conquering human worlds, eventually, they'll notice that the Church of Skrorne isn't really peaceful...

...when a Greater Demon bursts out of the building.

>> No.14677522

going to be, learned a lot guys, thanks.

>> No.14677524

>>14677511
I'm pretty sure everything in that picture is from the tau codices.

>> No.14677525

>>14677498

Yes.

>>14677490

I live under Omnissiah, and i wouldnt trade spots.
(especially as Tau's greater good does not include humans, they would very likely use gene technology to pacify or to eradicate human race.)

>> No.14677526

>>14677491
In order of accuracy to the interaction of units in the universe:
-low-
40k TT
DH/BFG
40k fluff
-high-

If DH says one thing, and it contradicts the TT but not the background fluff, then it is the standing authority. If background fluff contradicts it, the fluff is the standing authority. The TT is designed to be an enjoyable game third, an accurate representation of ground combat 92nd. All other sections are filled up with "Sell more models"

>> No.14677531

>>14677511
Idiot. That's from the Tau codexes.

And Xenology is canon.

Just because the artist makes one mistake on the legs of some fictional alien, doesn't mean it suddenly is a bullshit book.

>> No.14677534

>>14677521
Don't worry, they already killed Slannesh. :3

>> No.14677536

>>14677506

While I agree with you, more or less, it's still what often happens.

It's canon that over 90% of conflicts the Imperium take part in are Navy battles that end with the IoM winning due to Exterminatus.

They only deploy ground troops if there's something valuable they want or if it's a smaller interest and can't attract the attention of the actual Navy.

>> No.14677538

>>14677494
>>You know "1984"? That's the Tau empire.
Nope and your pic doesn't support that conclusion either 1984 was a hell for anyone who wasn't the ruling class. The tau empire isn't like that.

>> No.14677541

>>14677497
don't knights have battle cannons and the like?

maybe in stature but not in firepower

>> No.14677548

>>14677491
True. I've never read of a Guardsman getting his face fried by his plasma gun at random moment.

I have read bits about them heating up rather alarmingly, and an instance of one being deliberately overcharged and used as an improvised bomb.

That is one good thing about Dark Heresy. The chance to see what the actual dramatic difference between a basic SM and a simple IG trooper is besides +1 to a couple of stats (and points cost).
Hell, even I don't think a combat knife = bayonet = chainsword and that's the TT's attitude.

>> No.14677550

>>14677525
>>14677521

Ok, if The Greater Good doesn't protect humanity from Chaos then..

Are Tau the instrument of the Covenant; being another attempt to burn mankind out of the universe and forever dispel the threat of Chaos?

>> No.14677552

>>14677538
I love all these kids that saw one picture of the Tau on the GW website and think they know everything.

>> No.14677561

>>14677497
>Knights are back though, the GK Babycarrier is a knight.

No. Knights are more heavily armed, and have a design that makes at least half a bit of sense. They're somewhere between a warhound and a russ as far as capabilities go, which places them above that damn thing.

>> No.14677563

>>14677536
Fair enough then.
Still sounds like propaganda to me, but I'll accept it at face value.

>> No.14677566

>>14677541
Knights have one titan class ranged (vulcan mega bolters, volcano canon etc.) and one cc weapon iirc.

>> No.14677569

>>14677550
No.

The Tau are basically the dumb young kid trope.

When you watch a horror film, you always have this kid that thinks the monster/zombie/whatever is fake.

And then he gets mangled horribly.

That's the Tau.

Naive, blind, egoistic, I-know-best.

>> No.14677573

>>14677550

Not really. The Tau are just arrogant and ignorant. They believe that the Greater Good and their own society has revealed all the great truths of the Galaxy to them already. They don't really believe in Chaos, or even the size of the Imperium and Ork empires.

They honestly think they're the big fish, and the destined saviors of all lesser lift.

>> No.14677575
File: 31 KB, 483x291, 1301288112777.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677575

>>14677447

>> No.14677576

>>14677569
Aww, I want to conspiracy theorise

>> No.14677577

>>14677541

Its a modified version better suited to GK way of fighting, just like everything they field.

In essence its the closest to a knight we will ever get, since AdMech will likely never return as a codex.

>> No.14677586

>>14677552
Says the moron cherry picking and making things up.

>> No.14677592

>>14677490
If I get to chose the planet, the greater good.
If I get deposited at random, the greater good.

Really I'm just biased any part of Catholic Space Nazis.
I can accept that there are places in the Imperium where the common serf has it pretty damn good, but I still want no part of the religion-torture-zealous ignorance parcel.

>> No.14677603

>>14677569
>>14677573

The biggest problem with this is the fact that the boot is never going to drop, because they're a playable race. The Tau is that kid fro mthe monster movie who you know is going to live because they've hired him for the sequel.

>> No.14677606
File: 556 KB, 863x752, warhammer guardsman hijacks tau drone.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677606

>>14677592
Enjoy being butt raped by Chaos, asshole

>> No.14677609

>>14677586

There was nothing there made up, it was actually pictures from the actual Tau codex. Mostly whole quotes too, not cut-up parts taken out of context.

There's a very significant amount of information in the ACTUAL CODEX that paints the Tau in a fairly shady, Big Brother sort of light. If you don't like that then I'm sorry, but it's canon.

>> No.14677615

>>14677609
Nope. What he was getting at was that you left out the parts that mention that the Tau actually treat loyal citizens pretty damned well.

Grimdark, they ain't.

>> No.14677617

>>14677592
>If I get to chose the planet, the greater good.
Pleasure world.
If you get to choose: Imperium all the way.

>> No.14677621

>>14677592

That sort of stuff isn't really universal throughout the Imperium you know, even if it is really common. There's entire star systems set aside for the rich to play in that are basically paradise.

So basically it shouldn't be WHERE you go that informs your decision, but what social class you belong to.

If you're a rich, high class person then the Imperium would be great. If you were a lower class person then the Tau empire would probably be better.

>> No.14677625

>>14677615

And also they make humans and possibly other "dangerous" species unfertile.

Might not concern you much, but in essence its forced extinction/genocide.

>> No.14677628
File: 53 KB, 600x595, Chibi_Warp_Spider_by_skeenoman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677628

You know, among all the fanwank, i find it funny that a single major craftworld (Biel-Than for example) could steamroll the tau empire.

Of course they would suffer major casaulties and share the fate of iyanden afterwards or get fucked up by diffrent faction fucking up things nearby.

Putting aside the possibility of eldar creating the etherals and fucking with them on a dialy basis

>> No.14677632

>>14677615
Do I want to go there with what they do in DoW after Kronus?

>> No.14677639

>>14677603

You've just summed up almost 100% of the reason most people dislike the Tau.

They're like that annoying kid who'd shit on your bike seat and scream at you all the time, but you couldn't do shit about it because his dad was an angry, doting Cop of something.

>> No.14677641

>>14677625
No they don't. That's bullshit made up by a bunch of dark crusade fanboys for the FFG books.

You won't find a single mention of this in any of the official codices.

>> No.14677642
File: 61 KB, 407x405, truthiness.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677642

>>14677606
You have a very narrow view of Chaos, sir.
I think your fixation on ..."butt-rape" is unfortunate.

>> No.14677651

>>14677628
Unless the tau are getting a new codex when this happens, in which case we'll end up with a new special character for them and one less craftworld for the Eldar.

>> No.14677652

>>14677617
>Pleasure world.
>If you get to choose: Imperium all the way.
They always need more sewer cleaning servitors, enjoy the next thousand years of unlife waist deep in feces. Choose where to live not HOW you "live".

Pleasure worlds are for top level nobility only to enjoy.

>> No.14677659

>>14677632
Non-canon ending is non-canon. Even in the context of that ending, it was just a rumor.

>> No.14677661

>>14677621
Very good point.
Yes. It is GOOD to be rich in 40K, as long as you can stay away from the Slaaneshi cults and forbidden xenos artifacts.
It is better to be rich in the Imperium then working poor anywhere else.

>> No.14677664

>>14677641

Like it or not, dows are canon.

I myself liked the old Blood raven chapter's bloody end more.. but ive learned to live with it.. since i dont care much about muhreens

>> No.14677665
File: 244 KB, 720x874, warhammer fucklaw is ready.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677665

>>14677642
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

You, sir, are a traitor.

>> No.14677669

>>14677615

That's a pretty stilted view, I have to say. They mind-control races that don't want anything to do with them. They force other, weaker races to join them or die. They force every citizen to live under a rigid caste system with no exceptions, for which the punishment is never stated. Nobody but the Ethereals has any say in anything.

They are VERY grim-dark, though in a different way than the rest of 40k. They just look nice on the surface because their outward message is 'unity and peace'

>> No.14677671

>>14677651
The day CWE will become a punching bag even for the Tau im going to bomb GW

>> No.14677672

>>14677641
The games are official though, along with FFG's and BL

>> No.14677673
File: 34 KB, 324x743, Eldrad_Ulthran_Art.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677673

"I have followed the myriad potential futures of the Tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls"

--Eldrad Ulthran

>> No.14677680
File: 48 KB, 137x150, 1267550321498.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677680

>>14677665
That's for sure.

>> No.14677692

>>14677659

The DoW games have been stated to be canon, and are fully supported by GW.

This is mostly because they're popular, profitable games that spread their brand, but that doesn't matter.

Canon is canon, the company gets the first, last, and only say.

>> No.14677693

>>14677673
If Eldrad is so smart, then why is he dead?

>> No.14677694

>>14677673
And this kids, is how etheral caste came into being

Think of it, their caste system is alerady similar to the paths of the eldar

>> No.14677696

>>14677659
Guess again, the games are canon.

>> No.14677698

I prefer to know that im being opressed, rather than live a mindcontrolled lie for a life.

>> No.14677699

>>14677673
Indeed!
Heck of an endorsement there.
I don't wonder if that doesn't make some of the Eldar rather bitterly jealous.
To have one of their greatest cast them as not being the ultimately lifeform to ever draw breath, but instead another people riding the crest of history into the trough of extinction.

>> No.14677700

>>14677625
>And also they make humans and possibly other "dangerous" species unfertile.
Dark Crusade. These specific humans were back stabbing baby eating monsters who while being refugees were let into the Tau Empire and let settle on a Tau colony world, then when the Tau garison forces of the colony left to fight a battle the humans proceded to kill and EAT the native population because they thought the imperium might win the battle. When the Tau garison won and returned to the colony, they find the humans have tortured and killed all their families.

Sterilizing is a really light punishment for that sort of human scum, don't you think?

>> No.14677702
File: 85 KB, 407x405, warhammer-fukkenxenooooos.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677702

>>14677680
What the fuck am I looking at here!!?

>> No.14677711

>>14677696
>>14677692
Well, insofar as GW also says that nothing is canon and everything is slanted.
And that said sterilization is a rumor even in the actual ending.

>> No.14677715

>>14677700
Scum?

Excuse me, son, are you confused? Those HEROES stayed true to his majesty the God-Emperor and slew those disgusting xenos in his name

>> No.14677718
File: 44 KB, 450x600, mauganwat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677718

>>14677693
Because even if he knew he's going to die, he refused to run.

Its a shame Eldar have only one living cool character

>> No.14677720

>>14677700

Now when i think about it, could those people actually been corrupted by chaos.

Cannibalism is actually very rare in imperial fluff, so is famine actually.

>> No.14677724
File: 331 KB, 851x1220, 1267550416490.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677724

>>14677702
Fuck if I know.
Is it male or female!?

lol. Time for bed Mr. Bubbles. I've clearly stopped contributing anything meaningful.

>> No.14677738

>>14677724
>implying you ever started

>> No.14677739

>>14677659

tau fan in denial spotted

Tau is my second favorite faction and even i admit that was genocide and respect the karskin resistance fighters.

>> No.14677742
File: 159 KB, 650x523, 1271641699239.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677742

>>14677738

>> No.14677743

>>14677699

You should really read the Tau section in Xenology.

Basically it implies that the Eldar are the ones to create the Ethereal caste, by giving certain Tau a special organ that causes other Tau to instinctively obey them, and by imprinting them with the idea of the Greater Good. That's also probably the reason the race was saved from the Imperium by a 'freak' Warp storm around their planet around 5000 years ago, just when an Imperial colony ship was on the way to exterminate them.

Just saying, that's probably the reason Eldrad feels that way about them, because they were created by the Eldar for some reason, and when the Eldar do anything it's always to benefit the Eldar.

>> No.14677745

>>14677692
>>14677664
Every ending is canon, even though it is physically impossible for quite literally every faction to both win and lose every battle and every war at the exact same time in a way that both wipes out or triumphs unconditionally thus both killing and not killing key named characters in such a way that they can or can not continue to fight enemies which may or may not have won the previous battles.

Got it.

>> No.14677758

>>14677743
May I direct you to
>>14677550
for the reason the Eldar created the Tau

>> No.14677759

>>14677745
Now you are getting it.

>> No.14677760

>>14677673
>the darkness within their souls"

What darkness?

>> No.14677771

>>14677743
>Xenology
About as reliable as the Imperial Primer, but ok.

>> No.14677775

>>14677760
Ask Farsight, he knows. Oh boy he knows

>> No.14677779

>>14677745

Dimwit.

In canon of DC, Imperial guard loses.

I havent spent too much time deducting which faction won in canon, but looking how Blood Rayvens are still alive.. its prolly muhreens who won DC in canon.

(but how can you say that herp derp..)

Look at the item descriptions in DoW2:Retribution and you shall have the droids you are looking for.

>> No.14677782

>>14677743
Mm, indeed.
I wonder then if part of that wasn't to generate a potential ally? Like, if you can't beat, or join them, spawn them!
Though AFAIK the general Eldar attitude about the Tau isn't at all generous or approving. If that's true whatever the Eldar are scheming is secretive and far-sighted beyond any reasonable anticipation.
Hmm.

>> No.14677784

>>14677700

Dark Crusade got his own novel?
Who the fuck did it Ward Goto?

>> No.14677788

Dear OP,
Understand how terribly small the Tau are.
Also understand the horrific potential consequences that their ignorance of Psykers could bring.

Lastly, realize that the Imperium has the size, the armies, the weapons, but not the ability to take the Tau down.

Why not?
Go read Foundation and Empire.

>> No.14677793

>>14677745

Don't be petty. What it means is that each ending is possible and realistic within the 40k setting. So if, in one ending, the Tau sterilized human citizens then that's something they could do in 40k, it would be possible and acceptable to them. It doesn't mean that each and every thing that happened in the game is set in stone any more than it means that if you kill Creed in a tabletop game that he's dead forever and nobody else can ever use him.

It also means that Sindri and Bale are as canon in the setting as Ahriman or Abaddon. The various conflicts happened even if they don't have a cut and dry canon ending.

>> No.14677800

>>14677779
The Blood Ravens won the dark crusade it's common knowledge.

Thule himself slew Eliphas, the necron lord and captured Taldeer.

The only campaign which has disputed final results is the Karuva campaign.

>> No.14677804

>>14677771

It's a Black Library product, just as canon as any other. It's as valid within the setting as the Caiphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts novels.

>> No.14677814

>>14677771
HOW FUCKING HARD IS IT FOR YOU AUTISTIC SHIT FOR BRAINS TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A Black Library writer AND A freelance artist?

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT OF THE JOB OF A WRITER?

DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT OF THE JOB OF AN ARTIST?

IF THE ARTIST MAKES ONE MISTAKE, THAT DOESN'T DEBASE THE WORDS WRITTEN BY THE WRITER!

GET THAT IN YOUR FUCKING SKULL YOU FUCKING CUNT!

- your local friendly artist

>> No.14677819

>>14677782

Yeah, that's more or less how the Eldar operate. They do whatever benefits them and care nothing for any other race.

Of course it's understandable given what they have to do just to stay alive, but it doesn't make them any less dickish.

>> No.14677831

>>14677641
Don't you love all these faggots hating on FFG suddenly when FFG began showing the Tau in a bad light?

FFG is the best thing that ever happened to 40k fluff.

>> No.14677832

>>14677819
Yup yup, tis the way of things: no Good, only shades of Grey and Black.

>> No.14677835

>>14677771
...so, 100% reliable as a representation of a document riddled with inaccuracies caused by both ignorance and deception.

40k isn't solid and reliable. It has too many authors, too much history. It's given up trying.

>> No.14677836
File: 247 KB, 1440x900, cyrus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
14677836

>>14677800

Cyrus: i telling you man steel rain sound gay
Boreal:STFU we are SPEHSS MAHREENS

>> No.14677852

>>14677804
Since the book is written within the perspective of the setting, it's more accurate to say that it is canon that a book named "Xenology" was published by a radical inquisitor inside the imperium. Not that any of the information in the book is actually accurate, just that characters within the setting can read it since the book itself exists within the setting. Since it can be easily demonstrated by the rulebooks which are written from an impartial perspective that what is in Xenology is demonstrably false, it's more in setting fluff propaganda than actual setting information.

>> No.14677854

>>14677835

It's the same as any major Sci Fi product, you know. Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Stargate, Fallout, Battletech, etc.

They're ALL riddled with contradictions and dubious canon. But when there's something that's so blatantly part of the fluff of a race as the dark side of the Tau Empire then you just have to accept it. Sure it's not obvious if you don't look for it, but it's there and there's nothing to contradict it.

The Tau are not all sweetness and light, they do bad things all the time while following their ideals. It's just the way it is.

>> No.14677874

>>14677852

Same as any of the novels. When it says something that doesn't contradict existing fluff from first-string products (i.e. the rulebook and codices) then it's assumed to be canon until contradicted.

>> No.14677891

>>14677836
I warned you about STEEL RAIN Broeale!

I told you dog!

>> No.14677899

>>14677854
T'would be nice if it were subtle, thats all.
Though I admit that I haven't had the time to get my hands on DW, so I really can't say if FFG, BL and GW are uniform in their style of subtle (by GW:s standards) portayal.

>> No.14677900

>>14677216
no u

lasguns in fluff range from things that can blow a man's arm off to something you might use to read a book after dark.

>> No.14677913

>>14677900

They're generally portrayed as roughly equivalent to a modern gun, as well as of variable quality depending on where they're made.

I don't think that contradicts anything I posted before.

>> No.14677922

>>14677913
No they aren't, that's a half-assed generalization.

An M-16 does not vaporize your leg with one shot.

>> No.14677943

>>14677922
I'm not trying to argue anything, but I distinctly remember a bit of official fluff stating that they could blow of a man's arm.

I think the distinction was made that a man's arm was entirely different to an ork arm and that orks were a bit less susceptible to lasguns.

>> No.14677944

>>14677899

I dunno, you have to take into account the way they publish their material, with numerous loosely affiliated authors, and the audience they target, i.e. 10-70 males. The fact that, even as blatant as we both agree it is, there are arguments all over the place about it is a fair testament that it more or less has to be the way it is. If they came out and said 'TAU ARE A FASCIST STATE, THEY USE ALL MANNER OF SHADY PRACTICES TO ADVANCE THEIR BELIEFS' then it would lose the little flavor and ambiguity it does have, and if it was more subtle then many people wouldn't notice it and refuse to accept it at all.

>> No.14677957

>>14677891
THE STEEL RAHIN LIVES ON!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nP7wfjghnE

>> No.14677958

>>14677831
FFG sucks shit and their fluff sucks shit.

Go suck them off elsewhere, you stupid cunt.

>> No.14677964

>>14677922

No, but a Garand can do some serious damage, and that's a far more accurate analogue to a lasgun anyways.

Not to mention I did say that they vary a lot in power due to different manufacturers. They could vary as much as a .22 and a .308 for all I know.

>> No.14677965

>>14677944
IMO the problem is people /wanting/ YES NO black white answers, rather than the Tau themselves. I'm constantly baffled how people ostensibly interested in a universe of mysticism and confusion demand everything be laid down in stone for them.

>> No.14677967

>>14677854
>> But when there's something that's so blatantly part of the fluff of a race as the dark side of the Tau Empire then you just have to accept it

No it isn't and no i don't.

The Tau are the Good Guys.

PERIOD.

>> No.14677983

>>14677958

Your dislike of them doesn't change how canon or not canon their products are.

In this case they're fully supported by GW and their products are considered canon. Their quality and how much any one person likes them doesn't matter in the least.

Not to mention that FFG are just continuing what the old Black Industries line was putting out, and BI was a part of BL, which is, if you didn't know, the publishing arm of GW.

>> No.14677984

>>14677967
>The Tau are the Good Guys.

Compared to the rest of the 40k universe? Yes.
Compared to real life? No.

>> No.14677987

>>14677854
Actually, it isn't obvious at all that the Tau have a dark side in any real way.

>> No.14677991

>>14677984
You are as wrong as wrong can be.

Sorry that you're so wrong about things.

>> No.14677992

>>14677965

It's just how some people are. They want solid answers to their specific concerns, and with a large enough group of people it turn into wanting solid answers to ALL the questions.

>> No.14677998

>>14677983
Their products contradict other GW products. So they aren't canon in the slightest. And frankly, if i dislike something it isn't canon.

>> No.14678007

>>14677983
Matt Ward is also "canon" according to GW. Guess what? I have no intention of taking anything he writes seriously in anyway.

>> No.14678008

>>14677987

It really is. In every single publication and game that involves them there are hints and implications, or even outright statements, about the unpleasant things they do to expand their empire and maintain their vision of the Greater Good. There is never anything to contradict that stuff either. It is, without any doubt, canon.

If you really don't believe me then read the image in >>14677494 . It is images from the actual Tau codex, it's canon status is absolutely not in doubt.

>> No.14678013

>>14678008
Nope and that image is cherrypicking bullshit has was mentioned earlier.

>> No.14678017

>>14678007

That's up to you. Personally I don't take, and have never taken, anything about 40k seriously. It's a silly universe for a silly game. That doesn't change the status of the canon though. You may freely dislike any of it, but it doesn't change a thing.

>> No.14678024

>>14678013

It was also mentioned that it was all from a canon source. There is nothing anywhere in any of GW's published works that invalidates one single thing in that image. It is all canon.

>> No.14678025

>>14678017
But it does change it.

If i decide something isn't canon, then it isn't.

Therefore, the Tau are not grimdark even a little.

40k isn't silly anymore either.

>> No.14678026

>>14677418
True AI is as much a "computer" as the brain is.

>> No.14678030

>>14678024
You don't know what cherrypicking means, do you?

>> No.14678040

>>14678025

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Your personal opinion has no effect on the published work of a fictional universe.

If you're upset at the portrayal of a faction you like then I can feel sorry for you, even understand how you feel. But it doesn't change anything.

>> No.14678043

>>14678024
But that image doesn't mention that the Tau are decent to the people that are loyal to them. That is why they aren't grimdark.

>> No.14678050

>>14678040
You are really rather dumb. Why should i care about "official" canon that is stupid and contradictory? My own canon is better and therefore the official canon doesn't count.

>> No.14678058

>>14678040
Even black library authors ignore the parts of 40k they don't like dude.

>> No.14678061

>>14678050
Then why argue?

>> No.14678066

>>14678030

Certainly I do, in this context it means to only take parts of something that support your argument. But in this case it doesn't matter. Those are parts of the first source of canon for the Tau, their own codex. There also isn't anything within the codex to invalidate or even ameliorate them. They are as much true canon about the Tau as anything else in the setting.

If they were quotes from a BL novel or a DoW game it would be somewhat arguable, but they aren't.

>> No.14678086

>>14678066
Yeah, but you're ignoring that the Tau also treat people who are loyal to them incredibly well. That's why you really can't put them in the grimdark camp.

>> No.14678091

>>14678061
Because i am sick of these tau grimdark threads and i will do whatever i can to tear down such nonsense where ever i see it.

>> No.14678093

>>14678050

You should care because, like any published or broadcast work, 40k is a community setting. Many people take part in the setting in many different ways. If you want to take part in the setting in a communal environment, like for example /tg/, then you have to hold to the published sources that establish the setting.

When there's conflict within the canon, as there is in any Sci Fi setting involving more than one author, then there's room for debate. There's many places in the 40k setting that can be reasonably argued about, and that's fine. But not everything is up for debate, like it or not.

>> No.14678108

>>14678093
Nope.

Matt Ward, one of the worst authors for 40k ever is considered canon by GW.

We all soundly reject everything he has ever written. The same is true for CS Goto and whoever that idiot was that constantly wrote about farting space marines.

I do the same thing for all mentions of grimdark tau, because they are similarly stupid.

>> No.14678121

>>14678086
>>14678091

Treating some people well does not excuse them for all the various evil things they've done. Any personal opinion not supported by facts is also invalid.

I would like to point out, however, that 'grimdark' is something /tg/ pretty much made up on it's own and is not officially applied to ANY 40k setting. The Tau are not officially 'grimdark' because NOTHING is. 'Grimdark' doesn't even have a real meaning, it was made up as an insult to 40k anyways. It can be safely ignored in all respects.

What myself, and people of a similar opinion, are arguing in this thread is that the Tau are not a pure-good faction, that they are in fact very much a shades of gray faction like the Eldar or the Imperium.

>> No.14678146

>>14678121
This isn't a formal debate you clod.

Fuck off with this invalid shit. We don't need any of your goddamn "facts" here.

Also, grim darkness is in the introductory paragraphs of any 40k product you can name.

>> No.14678149

>>14678108

That's fine, and totally your right. However if you ignore those sources then you have to ignore everything about 40k. While you can freely choose which aspects of the setting you like and which you don't, you don't get to choose for the community at large what is and isn't canon. Only the people who hold the legal rights to the property can do that.

Again, that doesn't mean you have to like or even accept any part of it you don't like, but you cannot claim the stuff you like isn't canon.

Oh, and claiming 'personal canon' doesn't mean a thing, it's just expressing more strongly what you personally do or don't like.

>> No.14678158

>>14678121
It isn't a matter of excusing them, it is a matter of them being more like a modern state with all the good and bad that they do instead of the over the top stupidity of the imperium. It's more like most rather then some btw, just fyi there.

Oh and grim darkness is official. I thought a guy who knew so much about canon would know such a thing.

>> No.14678165

>>14678149
>>claiming 'personal canon' doesn't mean a thing

Yes it does.

AND EVERYONE ON /tg/ REJECTS THE PARTS OF 40K THEY DO NOT LIKE. EVERYONE.

EVERYONE PICKS AND CHOOSES. SO DO YOU.

>> No.14678172

>>14678146

If it's not a formal debate then I can express any opinion I want, and present any facts I can support. If it's not formal then you have no more right than anyone else to tell another person what they can say. All I'm doing is presenting my argument, what I believe, in the most logical and well designed way I can. If you don't want that then simply stop responding to me, I won't post on my own.

Also, yes, grim darkness is part of the intro to all 40k books, grimdark is not. Grim darkness is never a description applied to any specific faction, but simply to the time period in general. The Imperium is no more grim dark than anything else in the setting, and the Tau are no less.

>> No.14678181

>>14678172
Why in the fuck would i let you spout your idiotic bullshit unchallenged exactly? see 14678165 For the problem with everything you have posted about "canon" here

>> No.14678193

>>14678172
Oh look, you're not listening. Lemme repost this in case you didn't see it the first time.


>>EVERYONE ON /tg/ REJECTS THE PARTS OF 40K THEY DO NOT LIKE. EVERYONE.

>>EVERYONE PICKS AND CHOOSES. SO DO YOU.

>> No.14678200

>>14678165

No, people on /tg/ like or dislike parts of the setting, they say it's bullshit, stupid, retarded, etc. They do not, however, debate that it's canon. No matter how much anyone hates on the Grey Knights, for example, they would never refuse to play against them because 'In my canon they don't exist that way, so you can't use them'. They'll happily refuse to play them because they're 'bullshit' though.

>>14678158

They act a whole lot worse than most modern states, even under the most optimistic interpretation of their empire. I'm not saying they're totally evil, just that they're not really morally superior to any of the other nominally 'more good than evil' factions. Oh, and see >>14678172 for the grim darkness versus grimdark thing.

>> No.14678219

>>14678200
>>They do not, however, debate that it's canon.

Yes we do. We do it all the fucking time to the point that we got a sticky about it.

>>They act a whole lot worse than most modern states, even under the most optimistic interpretation of their empire.
No they don't. You don't know a lot about modern states if you think this is true.

I'm not saying they're totally evil, just that they're not really morally superior to any of the other nominally 'more good than evil' factions.

And this is wrong too! Jesus fuck dude, have you ever even fucking read anything about the imperium at all?

>> No.14678224

>>14678181
>>14678193

See >>14678200 for my opinion on the rejection of canon.

To reiterate though, I don't claim any right to say what's good or bad, or to tell anyone what they can or can't like about the setting. But it doesn't change the canon status of officially published works. No matter what you may or may not personally 'reject' the next person you talk to about 40k has every right to not accept your opinion.

So the upshot, in the context of this thread, is that you may not like what's been published about the less-than-good dealings the Tau have with other races, and even within their own, but your opinion has no more weight than any other.

>> No.14678236

>>14678224
>>the next person you talk to about 40k has every right to not accept your opinion.

No they don't you stupid fucking cock. Anyone who accepts ward's vomit as being anything other then sheer and utter nonsense will be shot out of a cannon into the sun.

>>See >>14678200 for my opinion on the rejection of canon.

You're opinions are asinine and you should seriously consider shutting the fuck up.

>> No.14678244

>>14678224
This is me.

Disregard everything in this thread that i have posted.

I am a tremendous gaylord.

>> No.14678254

>>14678219

I'll admit I was somewhat hasty when I said 'most' modern states, I retract it. They're probably on the level of a fundamentalist middle eastern or African state, but certainly more evil than most first world nations. Well, maybe just a different evil. The Tau are certainly an intolerant fundamentalist autocracy that expands without regard for anyone else, but they are a lot less manipulative than modern first world nations.

On the subject of the Imperium, their actions are certainly more overtly evil than the Tau, but also more justified. Their whole intolerant religion is based around ACTUALLY REAL evil gods that want to eat their souls and destroy everything they have. On their dealing with aliens though, they're about the same as the Tau. You either submit to the Imperium or die, same as the Tau.

>> No.14678259

this may come as the noobes question ever ( I never played 40k but for some reason enjoy reading the discussions on 4ch, weird, I know)

What is deathwatch? You people seem to refer to it a lot, and the only thing i can gather online is that it's a "chapter" of space marines deployed by the ordo xenos or a terror movie set in WWI

>> No.14678283

>>14678236

Look, you're not getting it at all. You, yourself, don't have any right, in any context, to say what anyone may or may not like. You are not an arbiter of nerd-culture at any level.

Myself, I don't like ANYTHING about 40k right now. I don't like the current rules, the codex creep, the increasingly contradictory fluff, any of it. I think Matt Ward is an idiot who can't write fluff for shit, he's absolutely terrible in almost all respects.

But I would never tell anyone not to like it themselves, because it's not my choice. I also would never try to say that 'my' 40k is at all canon. What I did when I didn't like the direction of the game anymore was to stop playing, not try to fight a war I have literally no control over and no real stake in.

>> No.14678289

>>14678050

Today I discovered that religious people and Tau fans are all the same fucking shit.

Cancer with arms and legs.

>> No.14678295

>>14678259

in-universe it's a group of Space Marines working for the branch of the Inquistion that deals with aliens.

It's also a pen-and-paper RPG released, originally, by Black Industries, a division of the GW publishing arm Black Library, and currently released by Fantasy Flight Games.

>> No.14678308

>>14678254
>>They're probably on the level of a fundamentalist middle eastern or African state

...no

Seriously, this is so fucking ridiculous that words do not even begin to describe it.

>>but certainly more evil than most first world nations.

You are laughably ignorant about the history of whatever country you were born in if you seriously believe this.

>>On the subject of the Imperium, their actions are certainly more overtly evil than the Tau, but also more justified.

No they aren't! Most so called "heretics" are simply people who want to overthrow the decadent nobility that rules their homeworld.

>>Their whole intolerant religion is based around ACTUALLY REAL evil gods

No they aren't.


>>On their dealing with aliens though, they're about the same as the Tau. You either submit to the Imperium or die, same as the Tau.

Annnnddd you are as ignorant about the Imperium as you are most modern nations. Terrific.

Newsflash, chief, there's a lot more to the imperium then submitting to it.

>> No.14678322

>>14678283
I can dictate whatever i damned well want and if you don't like it you can suck my cock.

How's that, you stupid fucking arrogant prick?

>> No.14678330

>>14678289
CRY SOME MOAR, HOMO.

>> No.14678335

>>14678295
much apreciated

>> No.14678362

>>14678308

As for the 'actually real' bit, yeah, I didn't mean in real life. I meant the Chaos gods, within the 40k setting, if you didn't get that. Most of what the Imperium does in terms of oppression is directly to prevent them from destroying human worlds or to maintain enough order to keep troops flowing to all the various conflicts they're involved in. Chaos is a real and constant threat to the Imperium. The rest of the corruption and evil that goes on is mostly related to the difficulty of communication and transport, or general neglect. I don't argue that the Imperium isn't evil, they clearly are very evil! Just that there's some actual practical reasons. The Tau only have ideological reasons for what they do, since they're immune to the Warp (for the most part) and too small and young to have the other problems.

On the subject of the subjugation of aliens, it's canon that the Imperium makes protectorates of less violent alien races that agree to it. They don't get to keep their freedom and have to work to support the Imperium more or less against their will in EXACTLY the same way that the Tau treat aliens they meet.

As for the Tau being fundamentalist and intolerant, they are. The Greater Good is functionally their religion and they force it on everyone they can, often by violence or indoctrination. They don't accept any contradictory belief within their empire.

>> No.14678371

>>14678322

You are wrong, I do not accept what you dictate. You have no authority whatsoever over myself or my opinions.

>> No.14678373

>>14678335

Any time.

>> No.14678401

>>14678362
Every last single word in this post is incorrect.

The imperium doesn't make protectorates of alien species, it kills them.

The Tau allow their human citizens to keep the imperial creed for the most part.

The corruption and evil in the imperium is because their ruling class is a bunch of dicks.


So yeah. You = wrong in every possible way.

>> No.14678409

>>14678371
YOU WILL FUCKING WELL ACCEPT WHATEVER I CHOSE TO DICTATE TO YOU, YOU LITTLE BITCH.

JUST LIKE WHEN YOUR MOM AND LITTLE SISTER ACCEPTED ME DICTATING MY PRICK INTO THE PUSSIES AND ASSHOLES.

>> No.14678435

>>14678362
Oh look, you only responded to half of his post.

How interesting.

>> No.14678448

>>14678401

No, you are incorrect. The Imperium does make protectorates of useful aliens, such as the Jokaero, and they also accept various abhuman species as well. The Imperial creed and religion grew directly out of the dangers of Chaos in a post-heresy Galaxy, despite later corruption. Without it many planets would fall completely to Chaos in short order. Oh, that and rogue psykers.

The Tau do, in fact, allow ANY aliens race to hold any beliefs they want, as long as those beliefs do not contradict the Greater Good, as presided over by the Tau. There are plenty of first-tier canon sources supporting this. Any race that acts against the Greater Good is corrected by any means necessary.

>> No.14678450

>>14678409

You are wrong, I do not accept what you dictate. You have no authority whatsoever over myself or my opinions.

>> No.14679497

>>14677673

..Just to respond to the Eldrad quote.

Keep in mind that he's... or was, an esteemed farseer of ULTHWE.

He, in no way accounts for the other Eldar Craftworlds or organizations.

Biel-Tan would probably see the Tau as much of a blight as humans/Orks and so on and so forth.

Ulthwe's merely another Craftworld, and regarded with some suspicion by the others (not as much as Altansar, but you get the drift.)

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