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[ERROR] No.14622212 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>There’s a common fallacy when it comes to D&D, and it goes something like: Einstein was a 20th level physicist. So, in D&D, Einstein – that little old man – has something like a bajillion hit points and you’d need to stab him dozens of times if you wanted to kill him. That’s ridiculous!

>The problem with this argument is that Einstein wasn’t a 20th level physicist. A 20th level physicist is one step removed from being the God of Physicists. Einstein was probably something more like a 4th or 5th level expert.

>This can be a little bit difficult for some people to accept, so let’s run the math. At 5th level an exceptional specialist like Einstein will have:
>+8 skill ranks
>+4 ability score bonus
>+3 Skill Focus

>In the case of our 5th level Einstein, that gives him a +15 bonus to Knowledge (physics) checks. He can casually answer physics-related questions (by taking 10) with a DC of 25. Such questions, according to the PHB description of the Knowledge skill, are among the hardest physics questions known to man. He’ll know the answers to the very hardest questions (DC 30) off the top of his head about 30% of the time.

>And when he’s doing research he’ll be able to add the benefits of being able to reference scientific journals (+2 circumstance bonus), gain insight from fellow colleagues (+2 bonus from aid another), use top-of-the-line equipment (+2 circumstance bonus), and similar resources to gain understanding of a problem so intractable that no one has ever understood it before (DC 40+).

That said, how come wizards in fantasy are always so powerful? Taking this example, there'd have to be much less of them around, and even the greatest genius magic user of the generation could only cast third level spells at most. Would be interesting, no?

>> No.14622237

Physicist should be a 5 level Prestige Class.

>> No.14622259

Because it now takes you two couch times with an NPC to solve his problem, get a bonus for finishing a quest and yet another bonus for doing it in an alternative way and like that you advance to the second level in the first session if everything is fair and square according to the rules.

>> No.14622264

PCs are not meant to be the average schmoe, they are the kind of people legends are built around. It's called protagonist power.

>> No.14622269

Because it's a game and no part of it makes any actual sense.

>> No.14622271

>>14622259
>>14622264
They become gods in five sessions, oh suree.

>> No.14622287

You can't actually be good at things without going up in HPs. Learning math makes you tougher. Some people object to that. (The DC ranges for things are... arbitrary at best. While a +15 is certainly not shabby, it's also not that impressive from a lot of standpoints- for example, it meets the Jump DC you need to make a running high jump of... 6ft on average. Not exactly "the limits of human achievement.")

>why wizard strong?
Fighters, Barbarians, etc, are classes that work within the rules. The things they can do are generally governed by the "normal" rules of the game.

Magic exists to break the "normal" rules, and thus can be allowed to do anything. Lacking the limits on "mundane" characters, they tend to go somewhat out of control.

>> No.14622307

>>14622259
You know, I've always objected how fast leveling up is these days. Back in earlier editions, it would take several adventures and many months of in-game time, to achieve a single level: these days the characters can easily ascend to hitherto unknown levels of might in a week or two.

>> No.14622348

>>14622287
Potential wizard fix? Gaining spellcaster levels doesn't give hit dice, or any physical advantages?

>> No.14622363

It's because you're playing fourth edition, OP. Play second edition, it's more balanced.

>> No.14622414

>>14622363
Actually I think that stuff's from the third edition. And wizards can still become pretty tough in the second.

>> No.14622428

Wizards are powerful in D&D because there are no consequences for using Magic.

WFRP uses a strong risk/reward structure with its Magic and thus it keeps the Wizards as what they should be.

>> No.14622459

Hit points are unrealistic, so you're going to find some problems if you try to apply them to reality universally. I'm not saying all hit points systems are bad! I'm just saying they are not going to consistently make any kind of sense. They are for over the top rpg campaigns wherein the characters are gods so they get plot armor. Or rpgs with superheroes, etc.

When I wanted to play something more low fantasy (and because I just felt like it), I made a system with a hit box grid where you actually get injured when you're hit. Other systems exist that employ logic to wounds, preventing squishies from getting tough in this manner. However, I noticed this usually makes it to where it is difficult to represent a god like character without giving them special exceptions to the rules.

>> No.14622461

>>14622428
Nah. In WFRP wizards are precisely what they shouldn't be: shooty shooty shooty whoops randomly eaten by demons.

Should be the complete opposite. Takes a while to prepare, a long time to incantate, and completely safe when used properly and by experts (still really dangerous if hurried).

>> No.14622480

I see hitpoints as plot armour during a movie.
the hero is in several fights and by the end he really starts to feel it...

>> No.14622490

just play E6.

>> No.14622497

>>14622212
It's called E6. Level 6 is as far as you go before you simply acculumate new feats, spells or tricks instead of further levels. It was originally developed to give a LotR feel to D&D, but it's quite nice in its own way for some things. Level 4 spells are almost impossible to get.

So, yeah, maybe you should check out E6. There's a variant that was worked on called G6, which introduced ideas like 3-level prestige classes and rebalanced the classes for six levels giving them small but fitting capstones. I would recommend doing something like that yourself.

>> No.14622623

>>14622480
This - the idea that someone can take a hammer to the face because they are better at physics is retarded but the idea that more experience gives more awareness of surroundings and more focus on avoiding getting significant damage is more realistic

>> No.14625635

bump

>> No.14625665

>implying Einstein wasn't the God of Physicists
>implying Einstein did not beat an entire team of ninjas by himself

>> No.14625678

The problem with 3.5 is this insistence that everything has to be statted like classes.

I can ropewalk, without fail (I think it's a DC30 balance check? Correct me if I'm wrong).

That'd put me in the lvl6 range, and I sure as hell can't backstab for shit.

No. NPCs are not adventurers. They are not expected to level up. Giving them classes is stupid.

>> No.14625724

This just in, class and level systems are fucking retarded, news at 11.

Why do games continue to insist on these systems? They don't provide balance (I've yet to see a single class based game that had any semblance of balance any greater than any point buy game); all they do is force character options in restricting bundles and then hand out power ups in illogical lumps, it doesn't seem to offer any actual advantage.

>> No.14625744

>>14625665
Hey now, Feynman got one of them with some chemical.

>> No.14625870

>>14625665
>implying Einstein did not beat an entire team of ninjas by himself
to be fair, given the theory of relative ninjitsu, a team of ninjas would actually be easier to handle than a single ninja

>> No.14625877

>>14625724
It's because people don't want to be realistic because they can't hack it in a universe that doesn't periodically make them objectively better.

>> No.14625929

god damn it not this shit again

>> No.14626053

>>14622461
You have no idea what you're talking about, kid. Keep your trap shut.

>> No.14626076

>>14625678
You are level 6. But you are a level 6 commoner, or possibly an expert, so it isn't saying much.

>> No.14626263

>>14625678

Let's assume you are statted as a level 2. You could have

+4 Dexterity Bonus
+5 Ranks in Balance
+3 Skill Focus

This is already a +12 bonus out of the needed +20.

Now consider things like synergy bonuses from other skills (could elevate you to +14 or +16), and the fact that there are probably things you aren't good at. It is possible to detract from some skills in order to add to some other skills. You also probably have physical traits that would add to balance but take from other skills.

Getting +20 at something without breaking level 2 isn't impossible, and yet a level 2 commoner/expert/whatever would have terrible combat performance. It is quite possible for them to not even have 5 hp.

>> No.14626414

>quoting the Alexandrian

>> No.14626461

>>14626414
What does the source matter? That sounds like an arrogant jerkass ignoring a perfectly good argument with an ad hominem.

>> No.14626552

>>14626414

Why do you dislike him?

>> No.14626554

>>14626414
What's wrong with the Alexandrian? Seems fine with me.

>> No.14626573

>>14622490
E6 is a fuckstain-retarded method of achieving the balance of 2nd edition using the bullshit 3rd edition brought it. People only, and I mean ONLY, play E6 because they are unable to grasp the idea that there might be a better game for what they want then 3rd edition DnD.

>> No.14626584

>>14622287
>Fighters, Barbarians, etc, are classes that work within the rules.

Why should they? Does Lancelot "work within the rules" when he solos armies by himself?
What about Conan - who is a quoted reference in the AD&D book? He didn'r seem less special than the magic users on his own universe.


See that's the problem: You assume just because a person it's not magical, it has to "play by the rules" in a heroic fantasy game, when the tropes the very game is based do not support this.

>> No.14626592

>>14622363
>It's because you're playing fourth edition, OP

Actually, as stated, the OP's talking about the 3rd edition philosophy.

4th edition would handle it like so: Einstein is an NPC. He has extensive knowledge of physics, and thus can answer the majority of tough physics questions that might be presented during scenes that involve him. No statistics necessary, because the DM is responsible for using his NPCs properly to tell the story.

Stats are only necessary when you have situations that call for them.

>> No.14626598

>>14626263
>implying I have 18 dex

Riiiight.

Oh, BTW I'm also an elf. Teehee.

And I'd still have twice as much HP as a lvl1 commoner...

Which begs the question... is it even possible to be a lvl1 commoner without being some peasant from an african shithole with no education and no skills aside from "live off of medical aid"?

>> No.14626606

>>14626414

>i have no arguments with which to refute the central point so i'll just resort to ad hominem

inb4 you accuse someone of being mad

>> No.14626611

>people using D&D rules for a realistic deiselpunk game.

Besides, most modifiers are massively depentent on money, so that system uses wealth instead of levels.

>> No.14626620

>>14626598
If we were all thrown into a fantasy world, we couldn't do shit like farming, smithing, tailoring, cobbling, merchanting, or anything else commoners did back in the day. We'd be below commoners. We'd be scum.

>> No.14626647

>>14626573
>My tastes: God tier
>Your tastes: retarded fag tier
Thanks for clearing us up on that matter.

>> No.14626763

>>14626620
I dunno why, but this made me lol.

>> No.14626816

>>14626763
Mostly cause it's silly. Farming is not hard to learn. Yes, it takes time, yes you won't be as good as someone who had been doing it in his whole life, but being a farmhand is not exactly a mentally demanding job.

This is kinda like the "oh, our ancestors were so wise and in tune with nature, and we have forgot all those miracle cures they used!" thing.

Just by knowing things like... IDK, the plow, or crop rotation, you'd be hailed as a fucking agricultural genius (depending on how dark age we are talking here).

>> No.14626874

>>14622480
>Hit points are unrealistic, so you're going to find some problems if you try to apply them to reality universally.
The thing is, there are actually two schools of thought. D&D started with one, and eventually shifted to the other.
1) HP represents wounds and harm which -- taken a little at a time -- are not life threatening.
2) HP is an arbitrary metric encompassing the character's ability to absorb damage, to operate despite grievous wounds, to avoid future wounds, to endure without being exhausted, and even ability to DODGE OR AVOID damage (not just "it's only a fleshwound" avoid damage, but also "thank god that missed me damage").

I argue that (1) is more true to what D&D originally went for. If you are hit (attack bypasses AC) you must take at least 1 point of damage. The arrow pieced your mail (even a little), the blow glanced off but drew blood, etc. That's why the "massive damage" rule exists: to smooth over the abstraction of "a little bit of non-life-threatening wound harm spread out over many locations and times" when it clearly breaks down with 1 hit => lots of damage.

Unfortunately, at very high levels that too becomes implausible, and people started to stretch to explain. Eventually the old guard fell away, and a new guard came in with their own explanations.

It has been argued many times that level 4 or 5 is where most of the "right place, right time" saga heroes fall in. For example, that LotR characters. Level 10 originally was akin to superheroics, level 20 mythic. Unfortunately, if everyone plays up to that level, it's not nearly as special as it could be.

>> No.14626894

>>14622212

Even saying Einstein is level 5 is ridiculous - it would mean he could still easily beat a 20 year old amateur boxer (lvl 1 fighter) in a fistfight.

It is obviously wrong that gaining skills in one area makes you better at everything - being the world's greatest lockpicker does not automatically make you good at knife fighting. Level based systems just don't make any sense, I don't know why people try to pretend they do. It is perfectly acceptable to play an unrealistic system, there's no need to be ashamed of it.

The essay OP's quoting is a thing of beauty, BTW. The author actually claims that 3E DnD is more realistic than GURPS.

>> No.14626918

>>14626414
I should know who the woman in that image is.
Can someone fill me in?

>> No.14626932

>>14626894
>Level based systems just don't make any sense outside of the context of an actually _playable_ characterm (which implies he must be combat-ready in a combat-heavy game) in a narrow archetype system meant to be useful for a specific game style not intended to emulate all of reality.
ftfy

>> No.14626942

>>14626894
On level 5, Einstein still wouldn't have much of hit points or combat skill. His physical stats weren't much, and had gone even worse thanks to age. The boxer is in his prime, has a plethora of battle skill, higher ability scores, and more endurance. He will knock down Einstein and collect 1800 experience.

Also,
>Implying GURPS is anywhere realistic

>> No.14626948

Never thought of it this way...

>> No.14626958

>>14626874
And then there is my way: all wounds count. Every hit is a brutal blow.
Midlevel characters are just superhumans that can withstand unreasonable amounts of punishment.
Ex: a 10th level fighter jumps off of a 100 foot tall cliff. That's 10d6 or 35ish damage. That isn't going to kill him. It isn't going to break his bones. He isn't going to pass out on impact. He is going to hit the ground running. You get similar results for a 10th level fighter dousing himself in lantern oil, lighting himself on fire, and just standing there on fire for a full minute: 10d6 or about 35 HP of damage. Midlevel characters are superhuman. I'm fine with that.
Some people are offended that I imagine HP as representing bodily harm rather than plot armor. Imagine things your way and I'll imagine things my way.

>> No.14626971

>>14626918
Someone drew a girl's face on a well developed adult woman's body.
God damn it, Japan.

>> No.14626972

>>14626942 Implying GURPS is anywhere realistic

I don't even like GURPS (combat is so...fucking...slow...paced), but compared to 3e DnD it's insanely, ridiculously good at realism.

>> No.14626985

>>14626958
I'm just fine with your imagination. It requires a correct sort of a game to run it in, but would work perfectly fine in context.

>> No.14626988

>>14626414

I believe it's Rydia from Final Fantasy 4?

>> No.14626994

>>14626958
I like this - it's like all the action movies, or something like Xena / Hercules. Of COURSE your average person couldn't do these sorts of things, but they aren't average.

>> No.14627002

>>14626972
>GURPS (combat is so...fucking...slow...paced)

That's actually one criticism of gurps I wouldn't make - the average person has 10 HP (and an adventurer probably won't have more than 20 max), and a dinky little 9mm pistol does 2d6+2 damage and can fire 3 times a round.

>> No.14627022

>>14626894
Physicists don't into combat, so they wouldn't get a BAB increase. he wouldn't take combat feats, because he's a fucking physicist.

>> No.14627024

>>14627002
I assume that there is armor or something?
Or does every fight end by round two or three?

>> No.14627042

>>14626988
>>14626918
>>14626971
Yes

http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=767421

>> No.14627055

>>14626971
They've been doing it for years too. You're watching an older anime (like Slayers, or Dirty Pair) then you hear "let's see.. red hair, about 15 or 16. Yep that's her"

Really? A 15 year old space cop? Fuck you, Japan. Fuck you and your fear of women "pushing 20".

>> No.14627058

>>14627002

Guns are deadly, but combat is still really fucking slow - most tough characters have a high enough HT to survive until they hit -5xHP, which is usually like 80 points of damage or some bullshit. Plus, they're missing with half the attacks, and their target is dodging half the ones that hit.

>> No.14627077

>>14626994
The average fighter also isn't Hercules. You know who _is_ hercules? Hercules.

Hell, Ulysses was an example of an Epic character in the Epic Level Handbook, and he _still_ isn't hercules. Also, at one point James Bond was presented as an example of Lawful Good. This convinces me that very few people really understand how D&D game terms correlate to the real world, least of all the fanboys who grew up and eventually went to work at WotC.

>> No.14627081

>>14627055
I have noticed their 'no adults, or at least no adults past their early 20s' rule.
There are exceptions, but by and large anime characters are young. That's not really the problem.
Sexualizing them is the part that is a bit creepy.

>> No.14627092

>>14627077
Ulysses wasn't a pure fighter.
You know who was a pure fighter? Ajax.
Fuck, even Achilles.

Why do you kids hate to think just because the guy is a fighter he is not allowed to do awesome shit? Even if we present examples of said fighter figures you guys go "nah aw he ain't a fighter sorry"

>> No.14627094

>>14627077
Your 'average' fighter is probable less than level 5 and lacks a divine or psuedo-god template.
So yeah, he isn't Heracles.

That doesn't stop midlevel characters from being stupidly powerful.

>> No.14627108

>>14627024

There is armour, and its usually very effective, but mostly it's because a character can't die until they hit negative double their hitpoints (so for a character with 10 hitpoints that's -20), at which point they can still make a fairly easy dice roll to keep living. They can do this until they hit negative five times their hitpoints, which is insta-death. Also, you can roll to dodge any attack, and a combat focused character can make that roll at least 50% of the time.

Also, guns do huge amounts of damage, but melee weapons do fuck-all. I think a sword is only something like 1d+1 damage.

>> No.14627109

>>14627094
To be clear, your "average 20TH LEVEL fighter" is also not epic, nor even then is he Ulysses, nor even then would he be Hercules, nor even then would be be totally unaffraid of a pot of flaming/boiling oil to the face.

>> No.14627110

>>14627092
Because they suck magical dick and like breaking the game and not allowing anyone to have fun because they think you can and should and have to "win" at P&P games.

>> No.14627120

>>14627109
>Ulysses

He was never described as super human, he wouldn't be any more than level 6 or 7

>> No.14627126

>>14627092
You're missing the forest for the trees. Ulysses wasn't a pure fighter. And yet he's presented an example of an Epic character more powerful than any 20th level fighter, capable of surviving blows that would instant-kill most of them. (Not that a blow to the head with a flaming mace can ever be a death blow to a 20th level....)

>> No.14627134

Levels don't represent a damn thing except how far you are in the game and how complex your character sheet has become. The antagonists you meet will always be appropriately competent and when you need to test your skills it will be against a difficulty number scaled to your level.

Make it explicit and play penniless mercenaries at level 30 or god-killing heroes at level 1, whatever the setting and premise calls for. It's doing D&D right.

>> No.14627146

>>14627120
>He was never described as super human, he wouldn't be any more than level 6 or 7
Again, not my example. WotC's. Which again demonstrates that the children who inherited the writing jobs fall into the same "level 20+" fallacy described by OP.

>> No.14627149

>>14627092
Wait, first you're saying you don't think Ulysses wasn't a pure fighter, then you say you think precisely that he was?

>> No.14627152

>>14627146
....

I don't even know what we're arguing about then. I think I'm on your side then.

>> No.14627162

>>14622212

1) 20d4 averages out to 50hp. Hardly a "bajillion"

2) Old copypasta is old. Original was Aragorn, not Einstein. Same stupid premise that epic characters aren't actually epic, and therefore D&D is overpowered, or some shit.

3) If Uncle Albert isn't and epic-level physicist, then who is? Newton? Andy Libby from the Heinlein stories? Some bum talking apparent gibberish on a street corner in Milwaukee?

>> No.14627167

>>14627108
You're forgetting blow through rule. Yeah a rifle can do 5d6 to 7d6 but it's only going to do 10HP damage to someone with 10HP. That person is now at 0HP and is rolling to stay concious AND bleeding out.

Blow through doesn't count for weapons that do 10+ dice of damage though, in those casses that just leaves a huge hole in the person but what do you expect when you're hit by heavy weapons.

>> No.14627185

>nd it goes something like: Einstein was a 20th level physicist. So, in D&D, Einstein – that little old man – has something like a bajillion hit points and you’d need to stab him dozens of times if you wanted to kill him. That’s ridiculous!
>scan entire thread
>no Desert Sun

POST DESERT SUN. RIGHT. THE. FUCK. NOW.

DO IT.

DO IT FAGGOT

>> No.14627192

>>14627162
>2) Old copypasta is old. Original was Aragorn, not Einstein. Same stupid premise that epic characters aren't actually epic, and therefore D&D is overpowered, or some shit.

It's not a copypasta, it was just the same article. The Aragorn example is a bit lower down.

>3) If Uncle Albert isn't and epic-level physicist, then who is? Newton? Andy Libby from the Heinlein stories? Some bum talking apparent gibberish on a street corner in Milwaukee?

There never was one. Why would there have to be? Why do we NEED to have epic level characters running around? Is Obama an epic level diplomat?

>> No.14627193

>>14627146
>Again, not my example. WotC's
I see. I was confused and thought that you really thought that Ulysses should be modeled in dnd as an epic character.
I find it sad that wotc official presents that as being how things are.

>> No.14627205

>>14627162
Sagen

Sagen slayed the last dragon of religion before I passed onto the outer planes to do battle with the so called gods.

>> No.14627215

>>14627192
Obama is a medium-level agitator. But a total failure as a doplomat.

>> No.14627222

HP isn't physical meat on the character that needs to be chipped off. It's plot armor AND health.

Everything past the first level is plot armor. As in, until the character is too tired to fight back that one last sword strike is the one that actually penetrates the defenses and kills the character.

This is why coup-de-grace can kill a character with 200 HP.

>> No.14627230

>>14627205
>religion
>>14627215
>politics
>>14627077
>alignment

Oh hell. I see where this thread is going.

>> No.14627232

>>14627192
>Is Obama an epic level diplomat?

No. L20 Diplomat is somewhere between Kissinger and Metternich.

>Why do we NEED to have epic level characters running around?

We don't. That doesn't actually stop them from haveing the audacity to exist, however.

>> No.14627235

NPCs do not follow character creation/progression rules. Character creation/progression rules are designed with player characters in mind. They won't work for NPCs, and they never should. I don't care what system you use.

Why are so few gamers and designers willing to admit this?

>> No.14627236

>>14622363
OP is talking about 3.shit/Pathfucker

>> No.14627238

>>14627222
>Everything past the first level is plot armor.
So there are no characters that can subdue an angry housecat, save if the fates decree it?

>> No.14627245

>That said, how come wizards in fantasy are always so powerful? Taking this example, there'd have to be much less of them around, and even the greatest genius magic user of the generation could only cast third level spells at most. Would be interesting, no?

Player Characters are supposed to be exceptional beings, alongside big bads or legendary heroes, especially very high level PCs.

Of course, a world in which every wizard were as powerful as your average PC would be completely senseless. But that's where you're supposed to design the setting so that it isn't that way. DnD doesn't take this into consideration because...well, that was never the point of DnD.

>> No.14627250

>>14627235
They do in d20 system.

>> No.14627274

>>14627222
>Everything past the first level is plot armor. As in, until the character is too tired to fight back that one last sword strike is the one that actually penetrates the defenses and kills the character.
They did this in one of the Star Wars d20 editions (not Saga)- characters had static Wound Points that didn't increase on level up, and Vitality Points that did. You took damage to VP first, then WP. When WP hit zero, you died, and when you were taking WP damage you had to test to stay conscious- so WP effectively included your -10 dying HP too.

It didn't really add anything beyond having just the one HP total, just needless splitting. IIRC the only real impact the split had was armour was DR that only reduced WP damage, so only low VP mooks like Stormtroopers who took most of their damage to WP actually wanted it- heroic characters ran around unarmoured trusting in their VP like Luke, Han et al.

>> No.14627287

>>14627250
To be fair, NPCs _can_ follow that progression. It helps keep the plot on the rails when they say things like "hey, our guide through the catacomb is one of the greatest sages in the kingdom; can't he help us read his own people's ancient runes?" It's a tool for the DM so he's less likely to be caught unaware

It also lets you know how much of a fight the king's (unnamed) guards are if you don't want to rule by DM fiat and piss off your players. You can roll the rolls, show them the stat sheets and say "what do you want from me? It just wasn't going to happen. It's perfectly reasonable and fair, and most of all, out of my hands. Now re-roll a new character, this time one who doesn't think he can go around threatening heads of state without consequence." (or, if he's really fair, dole out XP before he puts a price on their heads).

>> No.14627303

>>14627274
Critical hits in that system went directly to WP as well. That was really the point of the system.

>> No.14627307

>>14627274
Also, critical hits dealt damage directly to WP but did not have the damage multiplied.

>> No.14627315

>>14627250
Not really, no. By RPGA tournament rules, yes, but that's a horse of a different color. I haven't written anything for WotC itself, but I don't know any imprint that uses chargen anything more than a helpful guide rather than a rule.

And where's the pics of Einstein fighting ninjas?

>> No.14627319

>>14627238
If The Lady causes you to roll a 7 on a 1d6, then that's how the die rolls.

>> No.14627322

>>14627215
Medium-level in D&D means borderline extra-planar.

>> No.14627329

>>14627235
>Why are so few gamers and designers willing to admit this?
Simulationism. Game rules = world physics. The belief that somehow it's not a 'level playing field' if the rules acknowledge the fact that PCs and NPCs act differently (e.g. NPCs typically only have 1 fight per day, usually die and don't come back after it whilst PCs have many and are expected to drop and get picked up occasionally). Somehow this desire for 'abstract fairness' is more important than seeing fairness implemented in the rules by making them asymmetric.

>> No.14627333

>>14627287

Hm, good point. Also, some GMs actually enjoy carefully statting NPCs and beasties.

>> No.14627338

>>14627315
You're under the misconception that this thread is discussing 3E. Its not. All NPCs in WotC released 3.x materials used the player character progression for all classed characters, regardless of class.

>> No.14627370

>>14622212
>He’ll know the answers to the very hardest questions (DC 30) off the top of his head about 30% of the time.

>Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

Yeah, DC 30 isn't remotely close to the "very hardest physics questions." That's going to be a DC of at least 40, probably closer to 50 or 60 (as presented in the PHB). You can't take 10 or 20 as presented because you can't retry a failed Knowledge check.

It's a great little thought exercise, but it's significantly flawed.

>> No.14627379

>>14625678

I'm pretty sure you can't aim for shit, though. You would have a Flaw, maybe even two, which would give you a couple of extra +skill feats. So I'd say you are third level, with high Dexterity.

>> No.14627383

>>14627238
No it means a cat can draw blood but not deal hit point damage because a full grown man getting killed by a cat is ridiculous.

>> No.14627387

>>14627370

You can take 10 on things you can't retry. That restriction is only for Take 20.

>> No.14627391

>>14627287
>It also lets you know how much of a fight the king's (unnamed) guards are if you don't want to rule by DM fiat and piss off your players.
The problem is, genning using PC rules is usually slower and produces less appropriate foes than, say, a simpler system for NPCs specifically. You can easily use the 4e tables on the fly, if you want, to produce a level-appropriate threat for the PCs.

>>14627333
>Hm, good point. Also, some GMs actually enjoy carefully statting NPCs and beasties.
I've had a heck of a lot more fun statting 4e monsters and NPCs than 3e ones- mostly because the 3e statting system is quite constrictive and doesn't really provide much, if any, guidance for how to make a brand new 'monster' rather than an NPC, or how to add unique new abilities.

>> No.14627395

>>14627383
>clearly had not seen how D&D stats a housecat

>> No.14627397

>>14627338
Well, I was thinking of everything printed under the d20 trademark or its license when I posted.

What level of quality control do you think game publishers employ? It ain't six sigma, I guarantee it.

>> No.14627413

>>14627391
I think you missed to point of the quoted posts, which is "the NPC class rules are an optional tool to help the DM prepare for extended periods of unpredictable interaction"

>> No.14627423

>>14627397
There's no way to do Six Sigma because there are no metrics for per-unit quality, or even what constitutes a unit failure. Since they're making the rules, they can't even fall back on automatic rule checking.

>> No.14627452

>>14626414
What is The Alexandrian and why does it draw your ire?

>> No.14627476

>>14627452

He is a blogger who committed the unforgivable sin: actually liking D&D, rather than hating it and playing it to show how much you hate it.

>> No.14627478

>>14627413
The NPC class rules in 3.x are core rules for all humanoid NPCs who don't have a PC class.

NPCs in 4E are "wing it".

What dicks are you smoking son?

>> No.14627494

>>14627391

For any d20 flavor, I stat NPCs and beasties thusly: Do Stuff Bonus; Resist Stuff Bonuses, and; Hit Points. I list a handful of things the NPC is Good At and Sucks At.

When doing something they're Good At, I double the bonuses, and halve their bonuses when trying or resisting something they Suck At.

I don't tell the players this, of course. I ornament everything with rule-fluff. And I roll dice out-of-sight as a general rule.

It is true that, when finally told how I GM, the simulationist player decided all the fun he had been having for a year had suddenly become BadWrong. :(

>> No.14627556

>>14627423

You must have a engineering background. :)

Imagine the NPC as the product delivered to the customer, each step of creation as a process on a VSM map, and the rules as policies and work-instructions.

Bingo! Instant assembly line.

Now start your SIPOCs and fire up your Measurement System Analyses, we're about to drain *all* the fun out of roleplaying games as we know them!

>> No.14627593

>That said, how come wizards in fantasy are always so powerful?

Fantasy authors don't have to worry about game balance.

>> No.14627609

here's why hit points work, and this is direct copypasta from my house rules
yes, my house rules
deal with it.

"hit points are not a measure of a character’s actual health – having your skull caved in by an ogre cramps a 12th level fighter’s style just as much as a 1st level commoner’s – but rather it represents the character’s knowledge of how to take and minimize the effect of a blow. This can be improved only through experience (leveling up)"

>> No.14627648

>>14627494

friggin' simulationist players.

.... I guess you could do that for 4e, but you would generally have the resist stuff bonus for attacks on AT to have +2.

:P.

>> No.14627683

>>14627609

Seems fairly obvious. along with a combat rules only apply if both sides are at least some what prepared for combat.

i.e. if you manage to sneak up on your target as an assassin, but make noise just as you are about to stab him, stabbing in the chest but not hard enough isn't going to be dictated by 1d4 + mod types of damage.

>> No.14627729

I'm a complete retard and still don't understand how wizard magic works in 3.5/pathfinder

You've got a spell book, you right down the spells you know in it. Let's say I've got Magic Missile in that bitch and I study that book with all my other spells in it for an hour a day like the rules say.

Now I happen to be able to cast 5 level 1 spells a day, does that mean I can cast Magic Missile 5 times a day or does it have to be 5 different level 1 spells?

>> No.14627765

>>14627729
You prepare 5 lvl-1 spells when you study your book
they can be ANY combination of lvl-1 spells you know
you can prepare 5 different ones, you can prepare 5 of the same ones, you can prepare 2 of one, and then three different other ones - it's all up to you

>> No.14627821

>>14627765
And you've got to manage this every in game day?

Damn.

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