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14483520 No.14483520 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Okay. Somebody 'splain something to me.

Whenever people bitch and whine about the 3.5 Monk, I hear two consistent claims:

1. They can't use magic weapons, thus their damage sucks and they can't defeat DR.
2. Flurry of Blows blows furiously.

Now, unless my eyes deceive me, there's several "Monk" weapons in Core and the A&EG that Monks can use without penalty. There's nothing stopping a Monk from buying a +3 Flaming Bust Quarterstaff of Flaming FuckYou. So why do people pretend there is? To say nothing of Ki Strike for overcoming DR/magic. All I can figure is that the Monk's Unarmed damage is rather better then a magical Monk weapon, and the possible +5 weapon bonus is SO VITAL for hitting enemies past a certain level. But I doubt.

2. Flurry of Blows. Okay, a fighter's full-attack at 20th level (unagumented) is +20/+15/+10/+5. A Monk at 20th level - using Flurry of Blows - does +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. More attacks then the Fighter, and the first three are made at the Monk's full BAB. The kicker; Monks can use monk weapons and unarmed interchangeably, so you could selectively apply the weapons + bonus to particular attacks, depending on the AC vs. HP relationship of the thing you're whaling on.

This seems... pretty good. The Monk is UNQUESTIONABLY crippled by other problems (AC being #1) and nothing can compensate for that, but I don't see how these features, in and out of themselves, suck.

>> No.14483587

>>14483520

And before people start with the herping, we may as well elucidate the failing of the Monk: it's a melee class with shit AC and d8 hit die.

That's it in a nutshell. It's a melee class with shit AC and d8 hit die. There is no conceivable universe where this combination could work. That the abilities that are supposed to be compensation for this are largely useless and badly thought out is just extra insult.

>> No.14483630

Statistically, an unarmed monk will do more damage against targets with very low AC (<25), but the +5 from something like a kana makes a significant difference against higher AC targets.

>> No.14483671
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14483671

>>14483587
>It's a melee class

That's why. People compare its striking power directly to Fighters/Barbarians, and it's a bit weaker there.

Which would be fine except for how brutally WOTC fucked up with everything else. The things the Monk was supposed to do, it can't do, so now it's just a melee class with no AC, HP, and inferior full attack.

And that is bad.

>> No.14483684

The problems I've always heard are average to hit progression, d8 hp die, sub par class abilities and needs specific builds to work effectively. I've seen some monster combo's but frankly anything they can do can really be done by someone else more effectively.

>> No.14483697

>>14483671

>The things the Monk was supposed to do, it can't do

>>14483684

>sub par class abilities

I detect a theme.

>> No.14483718

>>14483520
I have never heard anyone call the monk underpowered, not even the nerfed 3.5 Monk.

>> No.14483727
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14483727

>>14483718
>never heard
>nerfed 3.5 monk
>nerfed
>3.5

are you fucking serious dude

>> No.14484045

Okay, no, you're misunderstanding the glaring issues of the monk.

It doesn't matter if they use monk weapons (actually, they can just grab gauntlets for enchanting and get their pluses from there while unarmed striking). They're frail, incredibly gear dependent, MAD as fuck, have shitty BAB, and are forced to stand in place to use their only damage increasing feature. Its class features are incoherent and mostly useless.

It doesn't do what it's supposed to do, what it does do it's worse at than everybody else that do the same thing. Its only upside is all high saves.

>> No.14484119
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14484119

>>14483520
VOW OF POVERTY

>> No.14484154

>>14484119
Makes the Monk WORSE.

>> No.14484160

>>14484154
You're fucking retarded.

>> No.14484171

Of course children don't forget. All of these complaints only really surface in a party of min/maxers or with a DM who can't balance party challenges.

>> No.14484177

>>14484160
No, you are. The Monk is gear-dependent and the Vow doesn't give them anything that can keep up with magic items.

You want to see a character that is actually extremely strong with the Vow of Poverty? Play a Druid.

>> No.14484201

>>14484171
Not true in the least. The Druid class alone, even when played poorly, has well over five times the output of the Monk. It is not possible to balance the encounter without making the Monk handle shitty small fry or making the Druid overpower everything, and even then the Druid's capable of pulling bullshit out of nowhere that can take the Monk's part of the encounter easily.

We're not talking "The Monk is 75% of a normal class in effectiveness", we're talking "The Monk is 20% while the Druid is 250%".

>> No.14484212

>>14484171
I can say I've ran into rather underpowered monks in parties with no munchkinery, but I admit the the player had made the mistake of not realizing
>>14484177
and took VoP..

>> No.14484292

>>14484201

Man, people say druids are overpowered, but you have to be a special kind of retarded to miss that the wizard and cleric can do so much more with their magic that the power gap is enormous. Not to say druids aren't exceptionally powerful, but both wizards and clerics can do crazy shit that establishes a clear gulf between them.

>> No.14484308

There are monk weapons available, which monks are proficient in and can use with the flurry, but their basic unarmed damage is better. All the monk weapons do faildamage compared to a high-level monk's actual fists, so people are discouraged from using them; even if they do use magical weapons for them, the other fightan classes are using weapons which do way, way more basic damage and have superior critical threat or multipliers, or have huge bonus damage from class features, like the rogue.

And flurry of blows is shit. The monk is, supposedly, designed for mobility. To be an agile striker. They get to run really damn fast, they can fall from great heights without giving a shit, so on, so forth. However, Flurry of Blows requires them to stand absolutely fucking still and let whatever thing it is they're trying to fight whale away at them for a round in return. Their odds of getting hits in are worse, their damage is much worse even if they get hits in, their AC is much worse so they'll take more hits in retaliation and their hit points are worse so they'll go down way easier when they do. It's one of their primary bonus attack abilities and it is only useful against weak enemies that didn't pose much threat anyway and isn't as good as a fighter with Cleave.

>> No.14484390

Didn't one of the Complete books have an alternative to flurry? Something like extra damage for a standard action attack i think.

>> No.14484398

>>14484390
Possibly. Core monk is definitely shit-that-even-the-garbage-collectors-don't-take-away-tier, though.

>> No.14484412

>>14484292
The reason for the Druid examples is that Wizards and Clerics require a bit of active thinking to break the game with. Druids can do it entirely by accident. Sure, the Cleric and Wizard can break the game more thoroughly, but it's extremely unlikely someone will accidentally do so. Druid just needs to turn into a bear, with a bear for a companion, and summon more bears. Then things die, because you can do this at level 6 with black bears, or level 8 with brown bears and black bears (Summon nature's ally IV gives you 1 brown bear or 1D4+1 black bears). In addition to your normal spells and any magic items that still work.

>> No.14484430

>>14484292
Druids are overpowered no matter what you do - they have every single part of their bullshit as a core part of their class. Natural Spell isn't even necessary to be overpowered. Wizards and Clerics actually require some work to be bullshit with, even if the Cleric gets all of their spells by default; not having the right stat array for a Cleric(IE: 8 STR 8 CON) can make sure that they're fixed into one role only since stat buffs only go so far. Wizards have entire spellcasting schools that are not overpowered.

>> No.14484471

Oh hey VoP enjoying your never flying ever?
Oh sure you could get a favor from a dragon or shit, But the Wizard is now in space.
Fuck you

>> No.14484491
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14484491

Pathfinder.
That is all.

>> No.14484607

>>14484412
>>14484430

True thing, true thing.

>> No.14484960

>>14484390
Found it, it was in the PHB2, but it's a full round action sadly.

Instead of Flurry you can make an attack at -2, if it it hits it deals double damage, and any other attacks you perform until your next round also deal double damage. If you use this to deliver a stunning attack increase the DC by 2. At 5th level the penalty lessens by 1 and at 9th it disappears. At 11th level you can attack twice when doing this but you must target two different creatures. Both attacks use full BAB.

So, not that great for mobility either.

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