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[ERROR] No.14341184 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Is the Chaos Space Marine book really as bad as /tg/ makes out? Because I'm trying to decide between them and waiting for new Grey Knights.

>> No.14341212

The csm fluff is nonexistent.
The gk fluff is terrible

>> No.14341294

The current CSM book isn't 'bad' by any means. Like most books it has two or three good builds and a few units that are quite horrid (in this case, just about anything with a random table).

The real problem is that the flavor of the army has been ripped out of book. It's not really a Chaos SM book anymore, it's a Renegade Space Marine codex. The legions are all but gone (in fact, only 4 have anything remotely related to them) and you can't use REAL chaos daemons anymore.

It's rather hard to explain. You know what? Here, read this:
or this if you don't like to download things: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24519413/WarHammer-40K-Codex-Chaos-Space-Marines-Newest

This is the 3.5e book. It is arguably the best book GW EVER released. It is fun, powerful, and allows for a shitton of customization. The new book is bland, boring, and dull (how redundant).

Chaos isn't Chaos anymore. They're more 'naughty' than chaotic. It's just not a fun book to use.

>> No.14341325


That just about sums it up. The only thing I would like to add is that the rules from both books reflect their fluff very well.

>> No.14341334


mfw matt ward writes the fluff for the next csm codex

sometimes less is more

>> No.14341341


>dat armory


Anyway, I want an Iron Warriors army. Meaning I wouldn't have much randomness, really. Just havocs, oblitertors and terminators everywhere. The only problem is metal havocs and oblits make me really want to reconsider.

>> No.14341359

I, for one, loved the brief flirtation with heavy customization that GW did in 3.5e.


>> No.14341442


Obliterators or nothing. Havocs are not worth it.

That being said, you could do a relatively fluffy Iron Warriors army with the Blood Angels book. The IWs are siege specialists that make heavy use of vehicles and guns to pound their foe, but as a side affect of the time they wait during a long siege, their bloodlust boarders on that of Khorne worshipers.

You'd need to take 3 vindcators (heavy support), 3 baal predators (Fast Attack), and a few troop squads to fill in the ranks. Land Raiders are transports in the book, so no worries there. The 1 in 6 chance of getting furious charge and fearless works well to represent the IWs getting tired of waiting and trying to get stuck in.

That being said, people will call you a wanker for using the BA codex of IW. Just a word of warning.

>> No.14341478


Eh, I don't really like that, to be honest. Doesn't really make sense to me. It would make a sweet World Eaters or Night Lords book though.

I could possibly use the vanilla marine book, and use Lysander as a Warsmith.

>> No.14341542


And now I've just remembered I couldn't do that. My LGS has a stupid "only 25% of your army can be proxies" rule. Meaning I'd need to use the CSM book. The boring, outdated CSM book.

>> No.14341627

I agree with you that the 3.5e chaos codex was awesome in terms of allowing for cool themed customizations, but it certain builds were pretty damn overpowered at the time. I think that GW mistook the wide variety of customizations as somehow being responsible for all that overpowered shit when in reality only a few options that were, and made the 4e book with the mindset that too many options leads to overpowered bullshit. Off the top of my head, Iron warriors were ripe for abuse, certain demon prince builds could walk through an entire army singlehandedly, though having a single character rape an entire army wasn't exactly rare back then. The majority of the other cool options weren't overpowered. I played a pure Thousand sons list back then, and if anything it was incredibly underpowered I tell you what.

>> No.14341708

I'm looking at the CSM book pdf now. Chaos really doesn't seem to have very much dedicated anti-tank, do they? Combi-weapons and obliterators. Plasma is fairly prevalent too, but that's not strictly AT.

>> No.14341770

Dual meltaguns in CSM squads, you can make a shooty dread (lol fire frenzy) or las predator. Though yes oblits tend to be the best choice.

>> No.14341792


I've been totally warned off chaos dreads and how they're fucking useless 90% of the time because of frenzy.

I was thinking that Preds might be a bit of a pointsink in low-point games (~1500 points). Then again, I've never played ANY marines, so I don't know what I would expect to pay for them or what points level is appropriate to field one.

>> No.14341810

They have a 1/6 chance of fire frenzy and 1/6 chance of blood rage.

that said, when they go WRONG tends to stand out in your mind much more than when they function as expected. Like the 1/6 chance of possessed rolling scout. after deployment. fucking facepalm.

>> No.14341865


So 1/3rd of the time, they can go wrong. As nice as the forge world chaos dreads are, I'll probably avoid them due to that unreliability.

Anyway, what kind of points-level am I looking at for a laspred?

>> No.14341878

of course that also depends though

if you have a cc dread, then blood rage is generally a boon.

if you have a ranged dread and managed to get it into a decent position, then fire frenzy can also be a boon.

as to the pred: pred annihilator (tl lascannon) or pred destructor with lascannon sponsons?

>> No.14341881

Can someone post Kharn's stats and rules? I play Vanilla Marines, but I'm thinking of starting a Chaos army just so I can field Kharn.He sounds like more fun than the old Ork Wierdboyz

>> No.14341894

From what I understand, he has some special rule where attacks he makes that misses are instead applied to friendly units in the same combat. Not exactly as entertaining as the Weirdboyz.

>> No.14341906

The official reasoning is that GW decided that freedom was king. To implement this, they made the rules as simple as possible, which makes perfect sense. Apparently, they wanted to encourage modelling freedom, and though simple rules would make it easier for people to use "counts as" armies.

If it doesn't make sense, it's probably because GW is insane.

>> No.14341917


I have great luck with a tri-las predator, but always run into the problem of having too many good heavy support choices (Defiler, Land Raider, Obliterators, Vindicator, and then Predator...Havocs are only useful in special situations) I really wish they would just drop Dreadnoughts and put Defilers in the Elite slot. Also, for a close combat army, our fast attack sucks - Raptors are fine, but aren't even as good as loyalist marines at the same thing. Marks, wargear, and champion puts the squad cost for ten up around 300 points.

The tri-las predator is cheaper than 3 Obliterators packing lascannons (165 vs. 225), and generally sits back and is ignored as I pop armor with it. It doesn't work all the time, and sometimes does get blown up early, even with AV 13.

>> No.14341923


Given GW's stance on conversions and the actual quality of their models, focusing on modelling and turning the actual rules into the blandest flavour of vanilla imaginable was indeed insane.

Luckily Jervis and Gav are gone from codex writing, so late 4e will never happen again.

>> No.14341928

mad high ws
hits everything on a 2+
165 pts
immune to psychic powers
2d6 armor penetration (5 base strength I think with furious charge possibly boosting to 6)
missed attacks hit friendly models in the same combat

>> No.14341945


You know, I defend Possessed all the time, as I find they work much better even in a squad of five than people give them credit for, but fucking scouts with Dawn of War deployment is just broken. RAW there's no possible way to use that ability in that deployment.

Most of the time they're expensive Berzerkers, but once in a while a base attack 2 squad with Power Weapons, Rending, or Feel no Pain is pretty useful.

>> No.14341973

Don't forget 5 attacks base which is pretty nuts. IMO Kharn is one of the better chaos characters.

What really bugs me with the 4e book is the replacement of marks per model with icon bearers for units. It's stupid that your icon bearer can get popped by wound allocation and then your beautifully converted and modeled unit are just normal CSM. Add to that the icons are probably priced assuming a 10 man squads, further punishing taking fluffy squads of 6,7,8 or 9.

>> No.14342037

But... you allocate the wounds.

>> No.14342061

he means when you take enough wounds to put one on everyone, and your standard bearer fails his 3+

>> No.14342063

It isn't terrible, it just took a lot of the options and customization away from chaos players/invalidated some of their armies.

which, in /tg/ terms means: grognards are blowing everything out of proportion.

I'm hoping they get something real nice in 6e along with more fucking plastic cult troops.

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