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[ERROR] No.12575936 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Dark Eldar: will they suck on tabletop or not?
We're having an interesting discussion on our local forum about DE being a shit level compared to mechIG, razorfang wolves and other tourney list. Most people say, that new DE will suck horribly. What's your opinion, /tg/?

>> No.12575947

Depends on how you play. I really think they're tailored to a playstyle as opposed to being "teh bestest army cuz teh codex is newest. Derp"

That's you. That is me mocking you.

Problem, beakie?

>> No.12575963

As much as I love the DEldar, I just don't see them as being a competitive army. They're built to fight infantry with infatry, and most people nowadays use hordes of vehicles.

That being said, Tyranids, Orks, and my foot Wolves are going to have a fun time fighting back. Luckily for me, my LGS is far removed from the tourney scene; being mostly populated by people who play for fun.

>> No.12575966

Stop talking to internet metagame wonks and play some actual games against real people. Realise that not every game should be fought between cookie-cutter list and that tournament-style WAAC lists suit other systems far better than they do 40k. I
f you want a finely balanced miniature game that is designed for tournament play, try Warmachine instead because in that community, tier listing and comparing certain set builds doesn't automatically get you labelled as a powergaming fudhemonkey like it can do in this one.

>> No.12575975

i imagine they will be pretty much the same:
hard to play competitively but if you know how they can kick ass

>> No.12575985

Played the dark eldar, and the raiders with re-rolls and splinter rifles scared the shit out of my daemons. As for "will they suck" no. They are new, and being sold enmass so they definitely won't suck even a little bit. With a 2+ poison instant death I7 lord in a retinue you'll comfortably mash most spacemarine death squads.
Yes large blocks of missiles and rockets will scare your raiders, but tbh that's the point. Raiders are pretty cheap.

Anyway, it's all a waste of time asking about it, most armies (except Necrons and Hunters) have a way around the DE, as long as you aren't playing stupidly.

>> No.12575998

Noob here, what is the Razorfang Wolves thing?

>> No.12576014

I know its been kicking my ork's asses as well as a new IG player with only one tank.

>> No.12576022

I'll let captcha answer this one:
>continued prescit

Wait, what? No captcha, that is wrong and you are very silly.
I have no idea what Razorfang Wolves is, but I imagine it has something to do with Razorbacks and Long Fangs.

>> No.12576028

Massed Razorbacks with Grey Hunters inside. Massed Longfangs with missiles. Lots of dakka.

>> No.12576030

Will DE suck or not?

Who gives a fuck, the codex is all about fluff options and cool minis. Do you need anything else?!

>> No.12576041


>> No.12576054

Sounds boring. I like taking SKYCLAWS. THOUSANDS OF THEM. Shit is so jump pack.

>> No.12576068

240pt character guy with cool skimmer

True born x9
+lance x2

Kabalite warriors x10

Kabalite warrios x10

Kabalite warrios x10

Kabalite warrios x10

Kabalite warrios x10

Kabalite warrios x10

+Disintegrator x3

+Disintegrator x3

+Disintegrator x3

75% chance of going first

17 dark lance shots and 27 str5 ap3 shots a turn

>> No.12576072



>> No.12576082


going to proxy this tomorrow, I dont think my LGS can handle this list as 30 of the 40 players play mechanized marines.

god i fucking hate space marines...

>> No.12576245

Why would you do gunline Raider Spam like that? Lance range is still only 36'' so enemy will probably bash your head in before you can shoot enough of his metal boxes. Change warrior and trueborn lances into blasters and use the spare points to upgrade you ravagers into Jetfighters (Missile Bombers if you have enough points). Dissie ravagers are alot worse than in the last edition. Also take another HQ Raider.

>> No.12576327


>Why would you do gunline Raider Spam like that?

Because I dont care for their melee.

>Lance range is still only 36'' so enemy will probably bash your head in before you can shoot enough of his metal boxes.

You've never played a game of 40k have you? 36" range gives me access to the majority of the table from my deployment, not to mention i can move 12" and still fire one of the lances.

>Change warrior and trueborn lances into blasters

they already have 4 blasters, i didnt feel like mentioning it.

>and use the spare points to upgrade you ravagers into Jetfighters

They cost more and I dont think they pack as many shots.

>(Missile Bombers if you have enough points). Dissie ravagers are alot worse than in the last edition.

They were over powered last edition.

>Also take another HQ Raider.

I dont think the special character allows for multiple 200pt flying land raiders. I certianly dont wnat another HQ that offers nothing to the army.

To change anything in this list that doesnt conform to ap 3 or less spam isnt worth taking. I would rather build a balanced list then continue playing this.

>> No.12576370

>I dont think the special character allows for multiple 200pt flying land raiders. I certianly dont wnat another HQ that offers nothing to the army.

I meant something like Archon with Blaster and Raider. which is 140 points. Also you could take empty raider because one of your trueborn squads that goes with Vect doesn't have it yet.

I think mobility is more important than 2 stationary 36'' lances. If you take blasters you can shift your raider armada every turn and still get those 2 str 8 ap 2 shots. But of course this is all about playstyle, you should be able to sweep a mediocre enemy off the table with these really easy.

>To change anything in this list that doesnt conform to ap 3 or less spam isnt worth taking. I would rather build a balanced list then continue playing this.

But yeah, if you want to do a troller spam list you can just do raiders and ravagers ad nauseum even if some other choices would be better in other situations. I was promoting missiles because it seems that your list would have some problems against SW footslogging missile spam.

>> No.12576394

AMEN! That is how you should play! GW themselves once said "We don't understand why people only want to win". Hell, even in the rulebook "don't forget to have fun".

I always had this philosophy that if you want to play a game just to win and win and win, the you CAN play Warhammer, but wtf is the fun to not have to struggle alittle?
Dark Lane spam has always worked.

>> No.12576396

Disintegrators are AP2, not AP3.

Which is good, S5 is worthless if it cannot overcome Terminator saves and FNP.

Archons (Vect and Dais excepted) can't take Raiders, the Courts can, so you have to take both Archon and court to take a HQ raider.

>> No.12576410

...I'm listing to this music for this thread. No idea why.


>> No.12576419

It has worked or failed in a blink of an eye. A turn of bad rolling can destroy your damage output and if that happens in wrong place Raider Spam goes kaput.

Thing is that Raider spam started to get worse above 2k points. Now stuff is more expensive so it seems easier to fill your point limit. But the damage output really doesn't go up if you take same stuff but pay more.

>> No.12576429

Who cares? They're pretty looking models, and the tournament viable lists go through a good shuffling everytime GW dicks around with the rules. If they're not good now, give them a few years and see how they are, especially considering GW is creating newer editions at an increased pace.

>> No.12576437


>> No.12576444

> 75% chance of going first

Someday, I want to run a list with Vect and the Baron, just for giggles. +1 to deployment roll and Sieze on 4+ if I fail that.

>> No.12576450

I think this works fine too.


>> No.12576455

Personally, I think this better fits the theme of the Dark Eldar

>> No.12576462


>> No.12576469

Army that waited 8 years for a codex is the one that got trolled.

>> No.12576482

Wasn't it over 10?

>> No.12576489

12. Pretty close to 13, actually.

>> No.12576511

Thought so. 8 was 2 editions ago. DE were 3 editions old.

>> No.12576514

Also, not all tournies goes 2k.

>> No.12576518


>I meant something like Archon with Blaster and Raider. which is 140 points. Also you could take empty raider because one of your trueborn squads that goes with Vect doesn't have it yet.

Ill look into it, I think your ways are better. The list is at 1998, i also didnt mention the raiders have the extra 2d6 move ability.

>I think mobility is more important than 2 stationary 36'' lances

No doubt the mobility is important, but i figure with going first i would want to poor as many shots as possible into enemy armor. I was thinking that to deny them of any mobility would be the death of my enemy. How ever if i can still stay mobile and shooty its worth dropping lances.

>If you take blasters you can shift your raider
armada every turn and still get those 2 str 8 ap 2 shots. But of course this is all about playstyle, you should be able to sweep a mediocre enemy off the table with these really easy.

That is the goal. I'm so sick and fucking tired of Hestan lists that only pack melta with absolutely no range except for land raiders and the occaisonal razor back. How ever if this list could become more competitive than it already is with out changing the end goal of "blow everything the fuck away and drive off" then im all for it.

>raider armada

i lol'd

you are wiser than i thought anon.

>> No.12576522


87% chance of going first, this is of course with out factoring the off chance your opponent prefers to go second.

>> No.12576524

Pic is copyright info from old DE codex. Draw your own conclusions.

>> No.12576540

Shame my Grey Knights will be getting 2+ armor saves plus shrouding.

>> No.12576547


AP 2


>> No.12576552

DE are deadly yo. Can do cheap Deathstar-lites, or MSU to rival the puppies. Aside from their paper armor (how DE are designed durr) the only drawback I've really noticed so far is a lack of anti-Walker melée, and it's not like you have the dakka to compensate, right?

>> No.12576555

No, the second version of their codex was released in 2002.

>> No.12576562

> Second version of their codex was released in 2002
> 2001, second printing

>> No.12576588

I already play dark eldar, and I've used the new rules in a game already. It takes some getting used to and you have to be meticulous in your plan of attack before the game goes, but when you know how you're units work and what they are good against, they can rape face! It's just that, like before, they can be a very difficult army to use/maneuver if you don't know what you are doing. It requires a LOT more strategy than other armies, like IG, who you can just swarm and blast away with.

>> No.12576596

Every edition has it's big bad boy. 3rd had a mix of them, predomintly Chaos Marines. They got nerfed.

IG will prolly also get nerfed, when they make vehicles less of a powerhouse.

>> No.12576601

I believe that the Dark Eldar won't be updated for another 9 years, and 6th edition will make infantry a better investment. When it does, the Dark Eldar will suddenly shine.

>> No.12576677

Says who?

>> No.12576680

So, how much are necrons boned by DE now?

>> No.12576704

Not that big diference, but comparing that you can make many lists compared to Necrons.. 1, then it's a huge diference. But Monoliths are still fucking awesome.

>> No.12576720


DE are better off against monoliths with the haywires being abundant.

Still, chance to pen is equal to a lascannon, but glances often.

>> No.12576728

That would depend on lists, my standard Necron list would have an interesting time against Dark Eldar. Destroyer heavy lists would do bad things to DE with instant death, instant death everywhere!

>> No.12576744

So, if several 'liths deep-strike, boxing raiders in and then just go off with flux, results would be glorious

>> No.12576776

And Venom-heavy lists both outunit you and go "Poison. Poison everywhere."

>> No.12576789

I've played a couple of games with leaked-dex so far and Mech IG were my toughest opponent, I only pulled a drawer.

Space Marines of the normal variety died horribly against me.

>> No.12576801

Yeah HW Blaster Scourges and Wyches are ripping and tearing Monoliths apart. And Voidlances and str 10 wargear can actually kill the fucker the ordinary way sometimes.

The main difference between old and new DE is that in old codex there were lances and lances and lances and raiders and an occasional lance but the new one has something else from time to time.

>> No.12576824

You say your vehicles are ALL open topped?


>> No.12576850

As a long time DE player, here is my review of the codex (after some playtesting):

Thew codex has a very similar feel to the old codex but it's had a very major shift to it. It's gone from "glass cannon" to "glass toolbox." Before, we could solve just about any problem by shooting it with dark lances and then assaulting it with wyches/archon+incubi. Now, that's a lot more complicated then it sounds, but that's really what it boils down to. The new codex has made it so we can't just spam dark lances anymore (at least not cheaply). Now, we have a many different tools. In the right situation, those tools are SUPER lethal. In the wrong situation, they suck. This is true with many units in other codexs but due to our innate fragility, it's even more noticeable with us.

The Good, The Average, the Ugly:

- Good: The Baron, the Duke, Malys, Sslyths, Haemonculi, Wracks, Trueborn, Bloodbrides/wyches, Ravagers, Cronos.
- Average: The rest of the SCs (except decapitator) Archon, Court of the Archon (except Sslyths), Succubus, Incubi, Grotesques, Warriors, Hellions, Reavers, Scourges, Talos, Razorwing, Voidwing.
- Ugly: Mandrakes, Beastmasters, Decapitator.

>> No.12576881

Wouldn't Beastmasters be a very very good supporting assault unit? They have longer assault range and loads of attack, they can't sit in raider but they get invu save against shooting too.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think they are ok. And Malys as great choice? Redeployment is not bad power but the Lady itself is incredibly bad. S3 power weapon that can break is one of the worst weapons ever.

>> No.12576894

I heard they were universally shitty now.

>> No.12576923

Holy shit. Am i the only one who just got eye raped by this? is there some illusion faggotry going on here or am i just tired as balls.

>> No.12576925

Woops...>>12576923 was refering to


Maximum eye raping took place.

>> No.12576929

>>Implying a non-retarded player would let you do that.

That said, continuing >>12576850

>>It Went Better Then Expected: Or Force Organization MVPs
HQ: Haemonculi. These have got to be the best HQ we have. They have a wide range of special wargear, are relatively cheap, you can take more then one to an HQ slot, and they provide a lot of good effects. The best uses I've found for them are to either A) Give them a Liquifier, mount them in a Venom with 5 Wracks /w a Liquifier, and then basically give infantry a bad day; B) Attach it to a wyches unit (they really need it) and give it a CC weapon of somekind (depends on how you plan to use the wyches); or C) Attach it to a beast/jumpinfantry/jetbike unit and have it leave the unit on turn 1 (and run off to another infantry unit). Haemonculi are the closest thing we have to an auto-take.

Elite: Trueborn. You can fit more power, for fewer points, then any other unit in the slot. Yeah, you're paying a surcharge for the privilege but it's worth it. Best way to go is 4-5 warriors completely decked out for either Anti-Tank (4x Blasters) or Anti-Infantry (3x Shardcarbine, 2x Splinter Cannon) mounted in a Venom. Bloodbrides loose out since although wyches aren't as good, they're not competing for an elites slot. Incubi are still expensive and almost have to have an archon with a grenade launcher attached to them.

>> No.12576930

Now now. With the right wych weapons and dukes re-roll on drugs as well as maybe a haemonculus leading them. They rape horses.

>> No.12576945

My one problem with Venoms is that they can't take Shock Prows. Considering that they're often given to small troop units, the ability to shove someone off of a control point would be really nice.

>> No.12576948

What are the special rules on the Grotesques. My copy of the codex seems to have left it out and they're my favorite unit from the last codex.

>> No.12576955

They still have to be lead by an SC or they X-plode.

>> No.12576964

If you charge Hekatrix into something like TH/SS termies attaching Haemi won't do anything. Hekatrix probably win though.

>> No.12576966

I should have clarified that Malys is situationally Good, otherwise average. It's just that she's AMAZINGLY good in that situation. I fight a LOT of psykers so that skews things a bit. The problem with Beastmasters is that 1) They don't do anything specifically well and they're competing against Hellions and Reavers as anti-infantry unit. A unit of Kymera is a good tarpit unit but Wyches are better at that.

Wyches are exactly the same as they were before. The problems people are seeing are (from what I've seen) a misconception of what they did before. Wyches have never been lethal units. S3 and only one power weapon per squad kinda cause that. As tarpit units and anti-MC/IC units, they were great. They're just more focused on that role now. The hard part is getting them that first Pain Token. Once that happens, they're exceptional.

Continuing: >>12576929

Troops: Wracks. A surprise upset over the wyches. Wyches aren't lethal. They're a tarpit unit. They lost some of that ability in the new codex but they got a lot cheaper so it balances out in the end. Wracks, however, are a scary anti-infantry unit and great objective holder. As mentioned in the Haemonculi section, Haemonculi /w Liqufier + 5 Wracks /w Liquifier gives two S4 APd6 flamers and 15 poison 4+ CC attacks on a charge (which re-roll wounds on T4 and below due to furious charge). Plant a venom full of them on a venom in cover (well, cover once the venom is destroyed), and they'll be hard to displace.

>> No.12576969

If they're not led by an independent character you roll a d6 at the start of your turn. On a 1, they turn into Large Blast templates. S6, AP6, as I recall.

>> No.12576980


You cannot get a 2+ poisoned huskblade, or any kind of poisoned huskblade for that matter. Re-read the rules:

-If you were thinking to do this with Lhamaeans in the Court, they only cause the Archons weapons which are already poisoned (i.e. 4+ poison) to become 2+. They have no effect on non-poisoned weapons, including the agoniser.

-If you think you can combine the effects of two different, special cc weapons, no, you can't.

Archons are good in combat, but not that good. I think the best bet is really just to with agoniser, shadowfield, and combat drugs, as with the old codex. Huskblade is okay but overpriced given how hard a time you'll have wounding a lot of the stuff you'd like to be killing with it; I mean we're talking 5+ against a Space Marine character, then probably having to get through a 4++ or 3++ afterward.

>> No.12576989

If you take WWP the extra threat range really helps Beastmasters. I wouldn't really doom them into the same pit as Mandrakes and Decapitator but I would also put Vect to top tier even though he is only usable in very high point tiers.

>> No.12577025


This army costs $590 US. Just sayin'.

>> No.12577028

Use old Raiders.

>> No.12577138


>desirimg strimes

>> No.12577161

And suddenly the army costs $20 of ebay.

>> No.12577293

Nice, but not essential. I've never been a fan of suicidal charges.

The problem with beastmasters is that they don't do anything specifically well and are competing against very good units that fill the same roles.

FAST ATTACK: Hellions, Reavers, and (on some days) Scourges. Yeah, it's a three way tie with Hellions and Reavers a bit ahead. The Fast Attack slot in the new codex is all about filling in gaps. List has too much AT? Bring in some hellions. Not enough AT? Bring in scourges. List too slow (well, slow for deldar, anyway) or needs flankers? Take Reavers. Each one fits a niche that you might be lacking in the rest of your list. Generally speaking, you're going to be using Reavers and Hellions more then Scourges but infantry heavy lists will probably be taking scourges more.

Specific Notes:
- Hellions: Not as good as a lot of people thing but still very good. Just remember they are an anti-infantry unit, ability to get S5/6 on a charge notwithstanding. Stunclaw is nice but not mandatory. Phantasm Grenade Launchers ARE mandatory (unless you attach the baron to them).
- Reavers: Decide whether you want them anti-infantry (Cluster Caltrops) or anti-tank (Heat Lances and/or Blasters). You'll waste points trying to do both.
- Scourges: Blasters and Heywire Rifles are your best bet. Heat Lances are a nice budget choice but the range on the melta effect (9") is prohibitive. NEVER take Dark Lances. Anti-infantry builds are both good and cheaper then the Anti-tank builds but you'll probably rarely take scourges for that purpose.

>> No.12577307

But hellions are really really fragile. What about situations where you bought lots of dakka but are low on tarpits? Khymera pack fits there fine.

>> No.12577350

HEAVY SUPPORT: Tie between Cronos and Ravager. Cronos is an amazingly good unit. You get an S4 AP3 flamer on a S7/T7/W3 MC body for only 80pts. It's low to the ground so you can get cover easily (compared to other MCs). The Spirit Vortex (18" S3 AP3 Assault 1 LARGE blast) is nice too considering it can fire both (yay for MCs). The fact that it also generates pain tokens for your other troops is just gravy. The only caveats to this unit are that 1) Taking more then one is just excessive; and 2) You need to give your opponent a lot of targets to focus on or else they'll focus on your Cronos instead.

Ravagers are a close second and tie with the cronos simply because you can never have too many Ravagers. They are our best Anti-Tank unit, bar none. Long range, high mobility, and the toughest vehicle we have. I always put Night Shields and Flickerfields on them but the Night Shield isn't as important as the 5++ Invulnerable save. KEEP YOUR DISTANCE, USE YOUR SPEED, ADVICEDOG.JPG

Ok, done with codex. Any specific units anyone wants me to go in-depth on?

>> No.12577364

Talos Vs. Chronos, please.

>> No.12577387

Also Grotesques. I know they mentioned above the blow up if not led thing, but there has to be other interesting rules, right?

>> No.12577419

Yes, Kymera are good for that but several things to consider:
- Due to how wound allocation works, your beastmaster can get sniped out of the unit. At which point, you're fucked because then their Ld drops to 5. In a large unit (with multiple beast masters) this isn't a huge issue but it's one to consider.
- They don't benefit from Power from Pain.
- They're long bases so they are hard to maneuver. When attacking small units, it's sometimes hard to get very many of them in.
- They aren't scoring.

Wyches on the other hand are scoring, have power from pain, and combat drugs. Granted, you really have to mount the wyches in a raider which limits their size but that's about it. I will say though, Kymera make an EXCELLENT screening unit for footslogging lists.

>> No.12577435

Of course one can throw some Birds as wound soaks or give gear fpr masters to allow better wound allocation. Probably no one is going to run single Master's packs.

>> No.12577437

Not really, no. WS4/S5/T5/W3/I4/A3/Sv6+ that start with a pain token (and thus FnP) is really all they are. One grotesque can take a Liquifier and the unit leader can take a small selection of special weapons, but that is about it.

Upon further consideration, I would probably move Grotesques down to Ugly and move Beastmasters up to Average. It's kinda iffy either way. The biggest problem both units have is that they're competing for a slot with MUCH better units.

>> No.12577443

But the thing was that someone listed to the Ultimate Super Bestest Winner tier ever (read crap) with Mandrakes and Decapitator. If they actually have some purpose then they can't be there.

>> No.12577445

Don't forget Bulky!

>> No.12577452

The problem with birds is that although they have five goddamn wounds, they're only T3. That means that even a multilaser can insta-gib them. If you have to allocate wounds elsewhere to keep them from dying, that isn't a good wound soak =p If you were going to do a mixed unit, I'd suggest a Clawed Fiend. They're tough enough to shrug off a LOT of punishment and the Kymera give them added durability.

>> No.12577468

>Dark Lane spam has always worked.

Lance spam worked for Deldar when they were 10pts a pop on your only troop choice (fuck Wych Cult, Kabal fo lyfe), and when you were taking the concept of MSU to the max (5 warriors, 1 dark lance and raider w/ DL for 105 pts). And 100 pts for 10 wounds and BS4 2 Dark Lances was a boss price, even with T3 5+.

Eldar have not been able to brightlance spam due to the exorbitant cost - while the new DE book doesn't overprice them the way the E/CWE book does, it also raised the cost enough to prevent superspam.

>> No.12577482

This is very true. Dark Lances are still exceptional weapons and at a reasonable cost, it's just not possible to spam them anymore (especially since they're 1 per 10 on warriors!)

>> No.12577488

I'm still boggled why you would want to wield Hellions in any other formation than a max squad with baron? Sit behind cover and jump in, shoot, charge and run away, With Stealth the Squad might be able to take a few hits but without baron it is going to fold like paper.

>> No.12577521

A couple points:
Taking at least 10 is mandatory, 15 suggested. The problem with taking 20 is that a unit that size get's unwieldy to move. It's harder to hide in cover (at least without becoming template/blast fodder) and it simply takes up a LOT of area. Also, the baron is good (don't get me wrong, he is the most points efficient SC we have) but he isn't that lethal due to lacking a power weapon.

However, the most important reason is a matter of strategy: You don't WANT your enemy unit to die on the charge. The reason being that you want a few to survive, hide from your opponent's shooting, and then they'll either die or you hit-and-run away. If you assault and wipe them out in the first round of combat, you'll just leave yourself out in the open. Balancing that with survivability/lethalness is a delicate thing.

>> No.12577586

By the way, this is how much hurt Vect does in comparison to a standard Archon with an Agonizer in CC:

Enemy WS less than 7: Vect = 2,13 Archons
Enemy WS 7: Vect = 2,84 Archons
Enemy WS more than 8: Vect = 2,4 Archons.

Assuming +1A from charge the numbers are almost the same. If the enemy is Eldar/Dark Eldar, Vect gets a big boost from rerolling failed wounds.

He's 2,2 times the cost of an Archon with bare minimum gear for CC (agonizer and shadowfield). Vect has of course a shadowfield as well (also ghostplate armor but that is negligible), besides the CC bonus you get the AP3 lifedrain blast wounding Assault/Tactical marines and Grey Hunters on 2+ and seize the initiative on 4+.

He's cheaper than Mephiston but cannot run around by himself due to still being a T3 elf, requiring thus an escort squad. In tournaments I'm expecting to see him in 2k+ point lists.

>> No.12577689

Another one here... I have been thinking about takeing 2 haemonculi with webway portals, just throw them forward in raiders/venoms with/without escorts. Just plant the portals down on two seperate locations (preferbly closest to the middle if you split the table in half).

Then just throw out 2 Cronos, 2x20 Hellions and maybe something more. How does this sound as a foundation?

2 haemonculi: each w/ webway
(Baron Hellion)
20 Hellions: hex w/ stuff
20 Hellions: hex w/ stuff
Cronos w/ both weapon upgrades
Cronos w/ both weapon upgrades

I've been thinking about what to complement them with. Of course need some troop choice, or maybe just the Baron to fill. But maybe some Wyches? 2x15 Wyches might be a good addition to it?

Experienced Deldar Guy; I like your thoughts about DE :)

>> No.12577715

That list is now somewhere around 850 points. You still need to add 2 raider or venoms squads because Haemonculi can't take dedicated transports.

>> No.12577732

im looking forward to screwing over melta-spam with these incredibly fast 36" lance vehicles. Theyll never get close enough to melta me unless they deep strike nearby

that said, ive been pissing off both melta-spammers and lance-spammers with no-vehicle orkz, so its all good

>> No.12577799

That's why I asked to help fill the gaps

>> No.12577810

The problem that list will have (on it's own) is the complete and utter lack of anti-tank. However, you have your elites and fast attack slots completely open so that's not going to be hard to do.

Here is what I suggest: 2+ units of 5 trueborn (4 blasters, venom) and a ravager for anti-tank. The hellion units seem too large to me but that's mostly just my personal opinion.

I've always screwed over melta-heavy armies with Night Shields (-6" means FUCK YOU). I just need to see how night shields are worded now to see how they affect Rapid Fire and Melta.

>> No.12577812

Nightshields brah.

Impossible to get 2d6 with a normal melta
Needs 6" for 2d6 on a multimelta. Good luck on getting within 6" of a fast, possibly open-topped skimmer.

Even with old Deldar book I've been trolling armies too melta-reliant for a while.

>> No.12577814

Beastmaster units are very deadly for their cost. Fragile yes, but it comes with the territory. Been on the receiving end of one and it took me awhile to kill them because my opponent was a champ at rolling 4+s...

Another friend of mine is running a min-strength Grotesque unit, with Flamer, and Flesh Gauntlet Aberration and attached Haemonculus, stuck in a Raider. 3 unique models, and useable as a suicidal melee unit to punk stuff like Nob Bikers, static vehicles or Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. Meep.

Pretty much everything in the book has its place. Barring Derpcrapitator.

That said, one little problem with your little Wrack setup:
-A Venom only carries 5 models.
-A Wrack unit needs 5 models to take a Liquifier.
-To have 5+a Haemonculus, would require a Raider.

Even if this weren't the case, placing an anti-infantry unit in an anti-infantry transport is bad, for it simplifies target priority your opponents ("Metal Boxes ignore this unit..." or "Infantry horde targets *this* unit above the rest")

>> No.12577848

Oh fuck, you're right. I kept thinking it was 6! I kept assuming it was 6 from the old Venom and all the early rumors rather then actually reading the codex >_> That changes a lot.

I agree everything has it's place. The issue really is that you are having a LOT of really good units competing with eachother. This makes some units, like Warp Beasts and Grotesques, really hard to justify compared to other units.

Doubling up a unit with transport isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing. I always run a lot of redundancy in my lists and target saturation so it's not a huge issue.

>> No.12577941

Meh. Trueborn and Beasts is one way to go about it. Or Blaster Bikes and small Incubi units. Both setups support each other well enough, one unit popping transports and setting up the other unit to perform an assault.

It's pretty much a given for me though that if I do take Bikes, I'm going to start a Haemonculus with each biker unit, then shuffle them elsewhere. In cover and with Feel No Pain, the bikers are annoyingly tough to remove. They are almost like Fusion Crisis Suits...only they don't suck entirely. When it comes time, they can eat small infantry squads in melee (blast a transport, chop the meltavets up), or tie units up; I consider their Bladevanes a nice bonus and just that; it wouldn't be of much use against Space Wolves, but against armies like Guard, Tau, and Nids, they're helpful for thinning out screening units at any rate (Tank Shock only does so much...)

>> No.12578036

2 Haemonculi: Webway
5 Trueborn: 4 blasters+Raider
5 Trueborn: 4 blasters+Raider

15 Hellions: hex w/ stuff
15 Hellions: hex w/ stuff

Ravager: 3 Lances
Cronos w/ both weapon upgrades
Cronos w/ both weapon upgrades


>> No.12578067

Hex with stuff includes what? You only need to buy PGL for 1 squad because baron already has it.

>> No.12578079

For one unit of hellions, give them the Phantasm GL and don't give it to the other (since the Baron has one). For the Cronos, I'd almost suggest skipping the melee upgrade. It isn't actually a close combat weapon so it doesn't give an additional attack. If you have a good place you can spend 20pts, do that instead.

>> No.12578092

How many points is that? You have to buy more stuff until you reach the intended tier cap anyways.

>> No.12578152


The pain tokens from CC upgrade is just 10 points. Even a fully upgraded Cronos is just 110 points.

>> No.12578238

I know, I was referring to two cronos x 10pts = 20pts. Besides, I'm big on trimming down units to the minimums for what you intend them for.

>> No.12578306

Has anyone asked for a scan yet?

>> No.12578367

On one corner we have the Carnifex, "the" Monstrous Creature, an iconic tank-wrecking and terrifying monster, engineered by the Tyranid Hive Mind with experience of war in a dozen galaxies.

WS3 BS3 S9 T6 W4 I1 A4 Ld7 Sv3+
Monstrous Creature
Rerolls failed hits in CC
Needs synapse
160 points base, generally 200 points, 280 in its most expensive configuration (+always cost of possible mycetic spore)

On the other corner we have the Talos, an evil space elf BDSM toy.

WS5 BS3 S7 T7 W3 I4 Ad6 Ld10 Sv3+
Monstrous Creature
Night Vision
Power from Pain

Twin-linked splinter cannon.
Immune to Guardsmen and non-charging boyz due to T7.
100 points base, generally 125-130 points, 135 points with the most expensive upgrade configuration.

>> No.12578408

Leeeeeeeeeeets get ready to ruuuuuuuuumble!

>> No.12578474

Yeah, Carnifexes got kinda gimped in the new 'nid codex. It's sad but true.

The talos is almost identical to it's previous incarnation (at least assault wise and cost) so it's not like this is a new thing.

>> No.12578501


No, THIS is a real Tyranid Carnifex. Unline that zerg impostor it has T8 and 10 wounds, can regenerate from death and has a 3+save on 2D6. Sadly you don't see them often anymore

>> No.12578530


The old Talos had craptastic armor penetration rules and bad shooting, the new one gets FNP and FC from power from pain, and a lot of other upgrades without a massive cost increase.

>> No.12578582

Actually, strangely enough, the talo's armor penetration was semi-errata'd.

The penetration was 2d6 + 7 + 1/extra-attack. Sucks because you only get one hit (effectively) but your penetration is FUCK HUGE.

>> No.12578589


And it looks ridiculously retarded. It's as if the sculptor sat down and said "we need to make a miniature that looks like an alien Jack Nicholson designed explicitly for hugging things to death, and convey the psychological feeling of one's uncle giving you a bad-touch."

>> No.12578625

That was the horror of the old tyranids, wasp in high heels with phallic guns, pan faced psychic clowns and carnivorous chitin plated condoms.

>> No.12578632

The good old times of putting fexes into negative 20 wounds. Man, i feel old.

Dude, it's a SCREAMER KILLER. SCREAMER KILLERS are one of the best units/concepts in 30k. And no, i cannot write SCREAMER KILLER without caps.

>> No.12578641


I don't see it in the FAQ or in the book. Just says "roll only once for armour penetration but add +1 to the roll for each hit scored after the first."

>> No.12578656

Old Nids where like bad-dragons toys.

>> No.12578657

hugging talons

>> No.12578659

Like I said, sorta errata'd. It was clarified... somewhere... that it IS a monstrous creature (in the core book, I believe). As such, it gets the 2d6 armor pen.

>> No.12578662


remember the battle report with Andy Chambers back in 2nd ed where 2 of them slaughtered an alliance of IG and Eldar nearly single-scythedly?

>> No.12578665


I seen one or two of these things on the table regularly - one of my friends still fields them, though he uses them as Tervigon-Counts-As


>captcha: mitaking hundred

yeah, not so much, I don't really like the sculpt

>> No.12578695


The errata just confirms that it's a MC instead of a skimmer (because someone gave it a rule called Skimmer). The line in the codex about the armor pen dice hasn't been contradicted as far as I see.

>> No.12578789

So Deldar vehicles seem to have no 'heavy armor' equivalent that makes them immune to crew shaken effects. Given that the vehicles are all also open topped that kind of spells doom for them even on a glancing hit.

>> No.12578792

>3+save on 2D6

Ah the good old days. Even if hit by a meltagun, fexes saved with 7+ on 2d6.

The current ones might just as well have no saves at all.

>> No.12578811


The 5+ invulnerable save is better and cheaper than extra armours.

>> No.12578886

Hey, question: Can the cronos' pain tokens be given to unit inside a transport? I would say no but GW is kinda random with it's rules.

>> No.12579204

>On the other corner we have the Talos, an evil space elf BDSM toy.

I can understand why you are angry at Tyranids big bug not being the god of melee that he is supposed to be.

But the Talos is much more than just that.

Also, instead of bitching about another Xeno codex, blame the deisgners for fucking you over your own codex. Don't bring that shit to us, DE players. We waited 12 fucking years.

>> No.12579257

requesting drawfagotry of a talos performing it's BDSM 'duties' on a Carnifex.

>> No.12579806


>> No.12581448

What are people's opinions on clone field vs shadowfield for Archons?

>> No.12581462

Clone field is god tier.

>> No.12581490

I'm thinking Agonizer, Combat Drugs, Clone Field, and Phantasm Grenades with Incubi in a raider. The shadowfield is superior if you're taking a lot of power weapon hits, but the clone field is nice for avoiding powerfists and the like. I'm wondering if ghostplate is worthwhile when running clone field though. Ghostplate+clone field is the same price as shadowfield afterall.

I would like to use the huskblade though. It's inferior for killing meqs to the agonizer, but it really adds versatility to your army because it really threatens characters and multi would models.

I'm also wondering about combat drugs. Obviously only the Archon gets the bonus from them, but if you roll a one and get the better run move does that apply to the whole unit he's joined, or only him?

>> No.12581784

Couple questions about the clone field. Do we know if it "removes" d3 attacks from the attacker, does it nullify d3 attacks that hit, or does it prevent d3 attacks that wound? Also, does the clone field prevent attacks in both players' turns, and when it does, does the field prevent d3 attacks from EVERY attacker targeting the Archon?

>> No.12581786

A bit pricey, but an Archon build that we've been throwing around is Archon with Splinter Pistol, Agonizer, Clonefield/Shadowfield, Soultrap, and Djin Blade. The idea is to use the Agonizer until you kill an IC or MC, then switch to the Djin Blade for +2A at S6. A better build with the Shadowfield, just to protect against your own S6 hits.

>> No.12581797

I feel like such a faggot. I have a few 40k models, and I'd like to have a Salamanders army. But they're space marines.


>> No.12582035

I've been considering this list:

135 - Archon: Agonizer, Combat Drugs, Clone Field, Phantasm Grenades

180 - Incubi x5: Raider: Flickerfield

195 - Warrior x10: Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Raider: Splinter Racks, Flickerfield, Night Shields
195 - Warrior x10: Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Raider: Splinter Racks, Flickerfield, Night Shields
230 - Wyches x10: Hekatrix(Power Weapon)Shardnet and Impaler x2, Haywire Grenades, Raider: Flickerfield

176 - Reavers x6: Champion(Power Weapon), Heat Lance x2
176 - Reavers x6: Champion(Power Weapon), Heat Lance x2

105 - Ravager
105 - Ravager

I wanted a hybrid army, not a straight shooting or melee. The reaver champs are there so that the squad can serve a hybrid role of shooting, or of assaulting vulnerable units. A champ with a power weapon is cheaper than a pair of caltrops, and more damaging overall. Caltrops don't add much over normal bladevanes considering their price.

The warriors are for close range drive bys and scoring. The wyches are tarpits, and the incubi+archon are a killing unit.

I'm taking power weapons rather than agonizers because I'm just not convinced that the agonizer is worth the extra points, especially not on squads with combat drugs. I don't think the ravagers need flickerfields or nightshields. They have the mobility to always take cover.

Any thoughts?

>> No.12584761

Haemonculi seem mandatory both for buffing squads with pain tokens and for their 1 shot wargear items. Those one shot large blast and template items can wipe entire squads.

>> No.12584891

That, plus making Wracks troops.

>> No.12585360

I'm really not sure what to do about wracks until they get a model, and the current haemonculi models can suck a fat one.

>> No.12585481

6 man reaver squads with a power weapon champion and dual lances are still unoptimized. If you wanted to charge with them then you would take blasters as str 8 is much better multipurpose weapon. And don't ever take str 3 power weps, they do nothing when you die in milliseconds.
The difference with bladevanes (buffed or not) and assault is that in assault reavers fold like paper without getting much done, and with drive-by they get cover save and might live to do the same in next turn.

>> No.12585675

But what do you do once there are no more un-engaged squads and no armor to hunt? And there are plenty of soft targets that reavers can hit turn 2 due to their turboboost range. The power weapon is going to pay off if you are assaulting a heavy weapon team or the like. And they do plenty since you are going to hit first against 95% of armies.

>> No.12587201

Dark Eldar Themesong; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrHVmksnV9k

>> No.12587836

What are the odds that someone leaves his HW-Teams unprotected and outside cover? Reavers are very very bad at assaulting and I wouldn't buy them upgrades for a thing that is pretty much their last resort use. Hell, sitting in cover and waiting for last turn contesting move is probably going to win much more games than going melee with them.

>> No.12587867

I need a list for about 1000 points. Suggestions?




Kabalite Warriors

Wyches/ Blood Brides


Raiders for all

>> No.12587884

Do you want a Wych, Incubi or Monster-Waifu harem for your Archon? Decide that first and then take maybe another CC squad and fill the anti tank slots with warriors/trueborn.

>> No.12587935

Incubi bishounen harem for my Archon. My idea was for a sort of revelling Dionysian army list - plenty of frenzied wyches basically - their battles are basically huge feasts of HUGE GUTS. The dilemma with DE is that they're glass cannons, and I really like an elite raiding squad thats deadly in cc. 4++ saves for troops is not to be sniffed at. I know that it's a lot to ask but any fa/tg/uy willing to make a playable 500-1000 list, keeping in mind my theme? I'm just getting into 40k again and don't know much about 5 ed save scoring units are important as is anti-tank.

>> No.12587952

in 500-1000 you don't really need to worry about anti-tank that much

take an archon, a handful of incubi, some wyches, stick em in raiders.. and that'll be your 1000 points

>> No.12587972

Great, just needed confirmation. I also really want some Trueborn/Warriors, the models look awesome - is his feasible. Also I heard that Incubi couldn't take Raiders - please say this is some sort of sick Wardian joke?

>> No.12587984

poisoned weapons are always feasable, though I would say the basic warriors are better due to their low cost/scoring status

no idea on incubi raiders myself.. you'll need to wait for someone who knows the book

>> No.12588016

It's a lie. They can take Raiders or Venoms. It's on p. 86, if you want to check it for yourself.

>> No.12588034

Archon, Agonizer, PGL, Shadowfield. 125
7 Incubi, Raider 214
2 x 10 Wychs, HWG, 2 razorflails, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
raider 460
This costs 819, now you can take a Warrior squad or Ravager or Razorwing plus the transport upgrades you want. I'm bit fearful of it's anti-tank ability though.

>> No.12588042

Math errors. It is 799.

>> No.12588048

> Wardian
Why would Ward have anything to do with it? Stop blaming everything on one guy.

>> No.12588054

I want my god damn codex

>> No.12588058

It is the Archons who can't take Transports. Only court (or Vect) can take raider/dais.

>> No.12588060

Why do you deserve it before everyone else?

>> No.12588117

So that I can scan and upload it to all the poorfags who won't buy it.
I can assume that you won't upload it if you got it.

>> No.12588122

And if you're too poor to buy it, you're entitled to it anyway? Where's the logic there?

>> No.12588126

Does Clone Field negate hits or wounds?

>> No.12588128

Beacuse sharing is caring

>> No.12588134

No, it's thievery. Unless you believe primarily intellectual property lacks the same rights as primarily physical?

>> No.12588138

>> No.12588140

>> No.12588144

>> No.12588148

>> No.12588193


The fall of the Eldar happened in M31.

>The Horus Heresy was in M31

>> No.12588201


Emperor got a helluva lot of shit done during that one millenia.

>> No.12588210

Vect is pretty much what Emperor wanted to be minus the obsession to be a warp god.

>> No.12588213

The birth of slaanesh blew out the warpstorms that stopped everyone travelling

>> No.12588222

Chaos got a fuckload more powerful with Slaanesh behind them. Nobody but the Eldar really knew exactly what was going on. When better to strike?

>> No.12588234

The Fall blowing off the warp storms and allowing the Great Crusade to begin has been canon since forever.

>> No.12588270

That Lady Malys.

IIRC, she's also in a 40k comic.

She gets possessed by a demon, and while the demon is doing his "You're mine now" speech, she simply replies with a "Shut the fuck up, demon."

>> No.12588302


I see! Now it all fits!

>> No.12589270

What's wrong with their assaulting? They've got ccw and pistol, extra toughness, drugs, and get to rapidfire and still assault. They are missing frag grenades, but that really doesn't matter against heavy weapon teams or squads that have been whittled down by shooting.

They aren't cc gods, but they can certainly threaten or at least tie up MeQ heavy weapon teams and combat squads, and they are scary for pretty much all non-meq or teq shooting units. Firewarriors, gants, all eldar and dark eldar shooters, guard, etc. Just because they aren't going to go toe-toe with assault marines doesn't mean they are a poor CC option.

You are really wasting the advantage of their 36 inch turboboost if you aren't using them in CC.

>> No.12589278

It's Harlequins who cannot take a dedicated transport. Incubi are fine.

>> No.12589288

6 Reavers probably win against a HW-Team but who the heck keeps his teams without protection?

>> No.12589307

T4, 5+ save, high base cost, generally smallish squads. They're unlikely to deal a huge amount damage of combat, and can't really take any hits in return. Throwing Reavers into close combat is a horrible waste. I can MAYBE see taking two squads, using one to Boost over a squad to weaken it with their Bladevanes and Culster Caltrops, then using another to Rapid-fire with Splinter Rifles then charge...but to be honest, it still seems like a waste of time. You can't assault on the turn you Turbo-boost, so they won't be charging until turn two. A Raider filled with Wracks, and with an Upgraded Void Sail, seems like a better choice for turn 2 tarpitting.

>> No.12590072

Anybody know the stats for Trueborn re: special weapons?

What is available to them and how many per squad?
Can heavy weapon troops fire from moving raiders?

>> No.12590094

Heavy weapons cannot fire from moving vehicles.

>> No.12590131


In general, yes you're right. It should be noted that splinter cannons have an Assault mode that can be used in a moving vehicle, though, in the case of DE. It's just that you'll only get 4 shots per weapon in that case.

So, small squads of Trueborn with 2 splinter cannons in a Venom with 2 splinter cannons of its own is a pretty legitimate dakka platform. Fragile as fuck, but deadly and with decent range. (It gets 20 poisoned shots per turn at 36" while moving up to 6".)

>> No.12590443

Do you know what Shard Racks do, and can Venoms take them?

>> No.12590454

Reroll hits for Splinter Rifles and Pistols.

>> No.12590469

Shard Racks allow either re-roll hits or re-roll wounds with splinter weapons and that might not count splinter cannons (but DOES count shardcarbines). Only raiders can take it.

>> No.12590491

Anyone have the last wargear page? The one with the clonefield, Vexator mask, and all the vehicle wargear.

>> No.12590525

only rifles and pistols? what about shard carbines/ cannons?

>> No.12590551

Can someone explain how skimmers work with regards to how far they can move and how that affects their dakka? Including for passengers?

>> No.12590566

0-6" moved, they can fire all weapons
6-12" moved, they can fire one main weapon
12"+ no weapons may fire and passengers cannot disembark.

>> No.12590569

its reroll hits for splinter -weapons-
i.e. all the guns in the splinter weapons boxout

>> No.12590574

right, so my raider can go 12" and fire its lance, and everyone inside can fire too?
what about the guys inside getting out and assaulting?

>> No.12590589

Anything under 12" moved the passengers may disembark. And as a Raider is open topped they can assault after they disembark.

And yeah, if the raider can fire a weapon, so can all the people inside it.

>> No.12590606

awesome thread men/tleg/ents, thanks for the advice.

Anbody want to post their army lists? I'm looking at 1000-1,500 pts, choppy and dakka both welcome.

>> No.12590685


>> No.12590728

ive got this 1750pts list

Baron Sathonyx

Duke Sliscus
150pts (Not sure tho)

9 Trueborn
- Dracon
- Phantasm Grenade Launcher
- 2 SPlinter Cannons
- 7 Shardcarbines
- Raider
- Night Shield
- Flickerfield
268pts (The Duke joins this unit)

10 Warriors
- Sybarite
- Venom Blade
- Phantasm Grenade Launcher
- Dark Lance
- Raider
- Flickerfield

10 Warriors
- Sybarite
- Venom Blade
- Phantasm Grenade Launcher
- Dark Lance
- Raider
- Flickerfield

>> No.12590738

15 Hellions
- Helliarch
- Agoniser
- Phantasm Grenade Launcher

6 Reavers
- 2 Blasters
- 2 Cluster Caltrops

6 Reavers
- 2 Blasters
- 2 Cluster Caltrops

- Night Shield
- Flickerfield

1747pts total

>> No.12590749


not enough anti-tank

>> No.12590788


wow Vect is the fucking man. Some talk shit about you? Throw a burning battleship at them!

>> No.12590853


have any more fluff pages?

>> No.12591134

Don't think the above is right.

If the vehicles moves 6" or less, then everyone can fire.

If the vehicle moves 6-12" only the vehicle can fire, and only 1 weapon. Note however that ravagers have a special rule allowing them to fire all their weapons at cruising speed. So they can fire all 3 weapons.

Moving 12-18" and they can't fire anything.

Also, splinter weapons count as defensive weapons so they can fire if the vehicle doesn't go flat out (12-18" movement). So the venom can fire all its weapons 12" or less.

>> No.12592099

Okay, lots of misinformation going round here. Let this end it.

This is incorrect. Shardracks cost 10 pts, only go on raiders, and re-roll hits. They only effect splinter rifles and pistols, not carbines or cannons.

If it moves at all, passengers cannot fire heavy weapons.
If it moves 6, the vehicle can fire everything and passengers can fire as if they moved.
If it moves 12, the vehicle can fire 1 main and all defensive weapons. The passengers cannot fire at all. However, they may disembark, and if they do they can fire.
If it moves more than 12, it's moving flat out. Nothing can fire, passengers may not disembark. If it's a skimmer and gets immobilized, it counts as being wrecked because it crashes and burns.

The main thing to note here is that being a fast vehicle does NOT change how passengers fire out of it at all, only how the vehicle fires.

>> No.12592110

Doh, called them shard racks. They are, in fact, Splinter Racks

>> No.12594876

Your math is wrong. Those warrior squads are 220 points, and they are bad. Darklance over blaster I assume means they are going to sit back and shoot? Why the sybarite with expensive grenades then?

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