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12459615 No.12459615 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Sup /tg/

Just read a Ciaphas Cain novel and in it I read something interesting.

An imperial sergeant was describing Tau vehicles and he said that they make Eldar vehicles look as crude as Orkish vehicles in comparison.


So here my question /tg/.

How advances are the Tau compared to the other races/faction of the 40K galaxy.

>> No.12459632

It's BL. They're full of shit.

>> No.12459643

Plasma guns that don't explode and railguns, I think.

>> No.12459657

>>12459615
The Eldar stuff he sees is likely distorted by shielding.

Or he just wants to make the current threat sound more important.

>> No.12459663

Eldar vehicles = magical crystals and shit.

Tau vehicles = TEKNAWLAGEES

>> No.12459675

>>12459643
Rail rifles use to, but they fixed that

>> No.12459682

The Sergent was probably exaggerating for effect. Just about every major race is more advanced then the Tau. Depending on how you judge orks that is

>> No.12459692

>>12459615
depends on the writer, of course. Under Ward, Spess Mahreen something something the best something something.

Since we have no actual metrics for which to measure any of the tech in 40k, much less reason why DA RED 'UNS GO FASTA! and tabletop is a bit too undifferentiated, let's look at 40k roleplay:

In DW, the standard tau pulse rifle is (almost) as good a weapon as a space marine's bolter. That alone says a lot. Furthermore, the tau crisis suit is the only armor in the game that grants the unnatural toughness (x2) trait (in addition to other power armor stuff), not that you'd ever be able to use it.

From BFG, we know that Tau ships of less than 200m in length are more than a match for Imperial Cruisers, what with their 1.6+km of gilded statues and under-belly civilizations.

So... pretty darn advanced. But it's all heresy, as one might suggest

>> No.12459703

Certainly not the most advanced, but surely they're the most advancing race in terms of tech.

>> No.12459704

>>12459615
>he said that they make Eldar vehicles look as crude as Orkish vehicles in comparison.
thats not really true.

You can clearly see that the Tau lie between Imperium and the Eldar.

Imperium = huge boxes that roll around

Tau = huge boxes with round edges that hover

Eldar= eldar tanks look sleak and aerodynamic

I guess its possible that he was referring to stuff like disruption pods etc though. Thats pretty spiffy technology

>> No.12459710

Lets face it, Tau stuff, like the hammerhead, are very visually appealing. Nice lines, I guess.

Eldar vehicals seem more to run on magic than technology. Its less an issue of 'Tau are more advanced', more of 'They LOOK more advanced'.

>> No.12459713

>>12459682

Well, at least Tau technology is reliable (after it's gotten past the prototype phase), and they actually understand how the shit works (instead of praying to "machine spirits" and hoping the shit doesn't explode in their faces).

>> No.12459727

>>12459692
actually tau are raped in space combat and the fluff is pretty consistent on this point as are the BFG rules.

>> No.12459735

>>12459615
Eldar tech advanced so far they considered it complete

Tau tech is so far ahead of anything else seen it is not funny

>> No.12459751

>>12459727
How bad are the Tau in space? Any fluff specifics?

>> No.12459754

>>12459727

Yeah, their trade fleet got fucked over. So when they built dedicated combat ships, they got fucked over because the Imperium shot the biggest ship, which happened to be the command ship. Otherwise, the combat fleet can hold its own with an equivalent enemy fleet.

>things maccin

>> No.12459773

The Imperium is more advanced then the Tau.

Bitches don't know about my warp drives and teleporters.

>> No.12459776

>>12459727
Didn't a tau fleet eliminate a nid hive fleet without sustaining a single lose or severe damage.

>> No.12459788

>>12459776

They ganked a tiny fraction of a splinter fleet.

>476, coberp

>> No.12459792

>>12459735
they arent really. Its just that they are young.
The majority, if not all, of their ships are colony ships quickly redesigned for warefare.

once the earth and air caste start opting for air superiority you can expect them to be much more deadly.

>> No.12459798

>>12459754

Problem is finding one.

The Tau are inherently bad for the fluff because they're so small. Either the boot has to drop and a playable army goes, or they will continue to be arbitrary winners of anything concerning them.

>> No.12459810

>>12459727
only because the IoM can spare to throw so many more ships at the enemy. And because the larger tau vessels are non-military. But still, you're point is true

Also, to continue >>12459692
In DH/RT/DW Eldar/DE tech is very, very good. Warlock armor, for instance, always ignores any attacking weapon's penetration, though it only functions for an eldar, hence the magic-ness of their equipment. As >>12459663 points out, things Eldar achieve with crystals and magic (like say, a harlequin's jumpsuit thing), Tau do with weaboo-ness (XV something or other (15?) stealth suits). It should be noted that both of these examples are superior to even the best imperial stealth tech (vindicare stealth suits)

>> No.12459812

>>12459792

Their dedicated combat ships are weaker in terms of hull integrity than an equivalent Imperial ship, but have higher speed, maneuverability, and the ability to split their fire evenly between front and sides.

>tiongas cordance

>> No.12459815

>>12459727
They took out a tyranid hive fleet without loosing a single ship under the command of Shadowrun.

Mind you, in BFG the Tau are using converted merchant ships, not dedicated combat ships 9 times out of 10.

To answer OP's question though, Tau are advanced compared to the Imperium, not that that's saying much, but they don't have the resources to do much with it, especially after Farsight split off from the Etherials.

>> No.12459827

>>12459713
There is actually very little technology that is completely lost to the imperium. It is mostly a matter of that understanding is limited to a few places and people. And while I am sure that sounds pretty bad think about it for a second. How many people on an assembly line actually have to understand the circuitry of the boards they are printing? How many people could build a car for themselves? How many really understand why their cellphone works?

It would be great for them if anyone could do anything and every dirtfarmer in the imperium knew how plasma reactions worked but it is just not realistic. It is far more effective to just give people rituals to perform and give them the shit they need since its really that or abandon all the advanced weapons the imperium has.

>> No.12459830

>>12459798
Supposedly, Tau are getting Demiurge (sp?) "navigators" in the next codex's fluff update which will solve the whole "Tau can't travel through the warp" thing.

>> No.12459832

>>12459773
>warp drives
Tau Etherials decided that they rather travel slow but safely.
>and teleporters.
thats not technology, those are ancient artifacts that the imperium is still sitting on.

Its true that the IoM has some really nice gadgets but those are all irreplacable relics from a time long past.

>> No.12459841
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12459841

Tau weaponry are so advanced they killed Slaanesh!

True story!

>> No.12459843

In Levels of tech from top to bottom its pretty much Necrons Elder Imperium Orks Tau, and i wont go into Nids

>> No.12459846

>>12459810
Actually DH/RT DE tech is SHIT.
Splinter weapons were bad in that missions splatbook for DH and got worse in ItS.

>> No.12459858

>>12459846

At least the Destructor was decent.

>treaty. revokewa

>> No.12459859

>>12459843

5/10

>> No.12459868

>>12459832
>Tau Etherials decided that they rather travel slow but safely.
there is no decide about it, they are completely incapable of warp travel as the other races do it

>> No.12459873
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12459873

>>12459815
Splinter fleet.

>Against the Tyranids, she led several devastating raids that disrupted the alien command and control structure so thoroughly that the Tau armada was able to scatter and destroy an entire splinter fleet without the loss of a single vessel.

>> No.12459887

>>12459846
splinter weapons aren't terrible if you're a rank 2 gunslinger who just happened across a fully loaded, 120 shot pistol. It's one of the few early pistols that have a decent penetration score, so it's good for those harder fights.

...then again, it's probably not worth the exotic weapon training talent for it

>> No.12459889

>>12459692

Not really, even the Tau recognize their ships as generally inferior to the Imperiums.

>> No.12459893

>>12459832
no, while a pain in the ass to produce and the supply is only a trickle, transporters as most of the "irreplaceable relics" you mention are still produced in the imperium

>> No.12459894

>>12459868
not true.
You dont necessarily need to be psychic to travel the warp.
The tau prematurely aborted their warp travel research because its fucking dangerous and Tau arent the type of people who take risks when its avoidable.

>> No.12459904

>>12459894
You don't need a psyker to travel the warp, just to NAVIGATE it. The reason they aborted the warp travel research was because the warp is FAR too dangerous without a proper navigator.

>> No.12459907

>>12459868
I think Tau tried to develop warp travel tech during one of the worldwide campaigns but then found the warp is filled with deamons and were like "Fuck this shit, we'll go the long way."

>> No.12459908

>>12459893
>transporters still made in the imperium
would you happen to have a source for that? In RT, it's only available as an archaeotech component, i.e. nobody makes it anymore

>> No.12459910

>>12459827
Which is why they can't make anything that isn't an STC and their rituals are usually slapping the 'on' button with their dicks, essentially, right?

Get out of here.

>> No.12459915

>>12459894
>You dont necessarily need to be psychic to travel the warp.
If you ever want to get out you need shit the tau aint got. The "decision" was more or less, take little hop jumps or never end up where you want to go, and probably never end up anywhere again.

>> No.12459916

>>12459832
>>12459827

The Imperium's technology is more advanced.

The Tau's industrial base is more advanced.

The Imperium has rare examples of priceless relics and a handful of superhumanly skilled artificers in the uncountable trillions who can replicate them sometimes. That doesn't matter, because it's there.

The Tau have no superweapon priceless relics, but they can build nearly anything they own with some reliablility, though not always cost-efficiency. They also don't need to design their everyday machinery to cater for the reality of a million-world empire in which a weapon can be built anywhere from Mars to a literal stone-age world, handed to a tank-bred supersoldier or a caveman, spend a hundred years getting to where it ought to go, and have a six thousand month backlog of spare parts orders.

>> No.12459941

>>12459615
Ciaphas Cain isn't canon, just fun. So that said, take none of it to heart.

>> No.12459954

>>12459916

Indeed. Such concerns are why your typical guardsmen is toting a mere lasgun and flak armour and their their tanks consist mostly of Leman Russ's and Chimeras. It's stuff the Imperium can pump out in the millions and still expect it's far flung worlds to be capable of supporting logistically.

>> No.12459958

>>12459915
its never stated that you cant navigate the warp with technology.

The Tau aborted their research almost instantly after they started because they realized that travelling trough the warp is retardedly dangerous and a nightmare waiting to happen

>> No.12459965

>>12459873
Still a nice accomplishment considering its been splinter fleets that have been attacking the Imperium most of the time. A segment of one fleet, forget which one, was deverted to ork space by using exterminatus on hundreds of worlds(one forge world decided to stand and fight, but got slaughtered by the sheer SKREEEEEE! that hit them.

The Tau avoiding the fate of the Squats is an accomplishment on their part anyway.

>> No.12459970

>>12459908

In RT it is, because a Rogue Trader isn't powerful enough to have access to the people who can build them. Yes, they're powerful, but not that powerful. To get access to the maybe three people at any one time who can build one, by spending decades and the wealth of an entire world, you need to be a real fucking King Shitter. Like, Lord Commander of a Sector or a High Lord.

>>12459915

Warp travel with a navigator is like going from one end of Detroit to the other wearing Klan robes and carrying a burning cross. Warp travel without a navigator is like doing that blindfolded.

There is a reason that the only races with appreciable empires are ones that have the capacity for useful Warp travel.

>> No.12459977

>>12459858
You can warp-skim it's ike semi entering the warp, also you can plot TINY jumps with a warp Cogitator, and slightly longer ones with a special relic.

>> No.12459992

>>12459941
source or gtfo

>> No.12459995

>>12459965

Not really. Like I said, the Tau were a mistake. They cannot exist without being a constant embuggerance to the fluff, and cannot leave without enraging many players. They will always have a contrived excuse to survive, and those excuses will by necessity become increasingly contrived over time

>> No.12459998

>>12459970
>In RT it is, because a Rogue Trader isn't powerful enough to have access to the people who can build them. Yes, they're powerful, but not that powerful. To get access to the maybe three people at any one time who can build one, by spending decades and the wealth of an entire world, you need to be a real fucking King Shitter. Like, Lord Commander of a Sector or a High Lord.

he asked for source, you provided fan fiction.
Care to back it up?

>> No.12460006

>>12459941
I remember Cain's Last Stand often being quoted in arguments about whether or not Sisters of Battle must be chaste or not(according to the Inquisitor cataloging his stuff, they don't have to be, but most just don't live long enough to appreciate the fact).

That series is great entertainment though.

>> No.12460084

>>12459995
spoken like a true imperial fanboy.

get the head out of your ass

>> No.12460090

>>12459998

Alright then, fuckface, 2nd edition Wargear book. At the storytime pages in the back. The one that involves the Chaos-Imperium boarding action.

Citing 'source' is the very thing that 40K isn't. That's the whole fucking point of the 'myth and propaganda' fluff. Save the scarce few absolute points of lore that you can't contradict, you don't have to fuck around with whose source is more 'official'. All that matters is how 'good' the fluff is. If you like it and you think it fits best, you use it. If you don't, you don't. If someone else has a different version, you test them on internal consistency and overall effectiveness, not the page number of the book they came from.

Besides, it's not like a source matters a damn anyway, even if 40K did follow formal canon rules. There's too much inconsistency for that to ever work.

>> No.12460105

>>12459998
What does he provide? A third party RPG supplement? Truth be told, unless you are a chapter master or commander of a segmentum fleet it might as well be archeotech.

>> No.12460141

>>12460084

I'm not an 'Imperial Fanboy' you moron. You don't even know what I like.

The Tau should never have been a playable race. The Tau only fit into the 40K setting because they are a very small fish in an even smaller pond, completely unaware that they back onto the whole damned ocean.They are utterly fucked, and don't even realise it. Sure, they can get along until one of the real powers turns their attention on them, but once that happens they're gone, and sooner or later it will happen.

Except it can't, because you can't kill a playable race. So instead of waiting for the boot to drop, it is in an indefinite state of suspension, and everyone knows it. Eveyr time the boot moves and stops again, it feels more and more contrived. And this impasse is one that will never be resolved.

As a fluff race the Tau would actually be pretty good.

>> No.12460145

>>12460090

Indeed.

When it comes to "irreplaceable relics" the fluff hardly ever makes sense. How do new chapters get any Dreadnoughts etc? How does anybody replace inevitable losses? They simply must be produced in some quantity.

IIRC, teleporters are common enough that every Imperial capitol ship can make use of teleporter attacks in BFG.

Another one of those "relics", plasma weaponry, is barely understood and highly rare but you can still equip guardsmen with it. When one of the developers was asked about this once they said "plasma guns are so rare you can only equip 1 in 10 models with them" (can't remember who said it).

I prefer to interpret the word "irreplaceable" to mean that if an army loses something like a Dreadnought or plasma gun, it's going to take a considerable amount of time for a replacement to arrive because the item in question is produced in relatively small numbers and has many factions demanding more of them, each with their own ever-increasing backlog of orders. Either that or they'll get a replacmeent but it won't be of the same quality.

Forge World tends to take this view. In their Imperial Armour you hear of Forge Worlds that happen to produce stuff like plasma weaponry in unusually high quantities or their own specific version of Dreadnought chassis.

We have to think of the sheer scale of the Imperium too. Even if the Imperium still produces a million plasma guns on an annual basis that's still basically a trickle compared to all the armies they have to equip.

>> No.12460150

Yeah, super heavy tanks, plasma batteries, battleships, titans, terminator armor, dreadnoughts, transporters.

These things are all still made, its just difficult. So even with a bunch of top mechanics personnel building a titan leg on a forge world somewhere they are still rare and priceless relics.

>> No.12460169

Eldar things are more impressive/fantastic

Tau things are more TECHNOLOGICALLY impressive. They do this shit with sticks and rocks, eldar use phsychic sticks and rocks

anyways, technology rating in 40k goes something like;

Eldar (of all flavors) = Necrons (necrons may be more advanced..) > Humankind (although they don't really get how to work it anymore, it's still dark age bullshit technology) > everyone else

>>12459815
>especially after Farsight split off from the Etherials
I've been playing Tau (with farsight, no less) since release.. but I just had a flashback to Halo 2 (yeah, yeah, I know). Space popes in chairs? Alien collective? Warrior race splitting off?

huh. Mind, they're both extremely unoriginal settings, so it's not a big surprise

>> No.12460176

>>12460141
>Except it can't, because you can't kill a playable race.
I am looking at my RT book full of zoats slann and squats

>> No.12460180

>>12460105
well, the reason I asked for a source is actually what >>12460090 Baron states: fluff is inconsistent, much more so given the setting. Numbers, on the other hand, don't lie. A tau pulse rifle's 150m range, 2d10+2 E damage, and 4 penetration is objectively better than a guardsman's lasgun's 100m, 1d10+3 E, 0 penetration. So, while, yes, it is a third party source, it's better than wild speculation from an unreliable narrator.

>> No.12460199

>>12460180
no source has ever claimed the lasgun was better. Unless you count ammo/reliability

>> No.12460200

>>12460145

Aren't grav plates and teleporters manufactured just in mars because they have the only STC that hasn't been blown up or corrupted left ?

>> No.12460203

>>12460084
He's kinda right dude. They've avoided utter destruction several times now in fluff by what can only be interpreted as the most ridiculous dumb luck in the galaxy. The Damocles Gulf Crusade got thrown off by 13th Black Crusade. Then there was that Ork Waaagh! which got thrown off by a Hive Fleet, which also would have wiped the Tau out if not for the Orks in the way. I'm probably missing a few scenarios, but you get my point. The worst thing that's happened to them yet in fluff was an Ultrasmurf Company blitzkrieging their third sphere of expansion.

Seriously, man. Tau aren't barely hanging in there like everyone else. They have more plot armour than an Ultramarine with a meltabomb staring down the Nightbringer.

>> No.12460219

>>12460203He's kinda right dude. They've avoided utter destruction several times now in fluff by what can only be interpreted as the most ridiculous dumb luck in the galaxy.

the Dark Eldar kidnapped an entire planet

>> No.12460223

>>12460200
There are no known "functioning STC systems." Chances are the plans for hovertech are from/derived from a STC printout, and due to the advanced nature of such things chances are they are only produced on mars and a handful of other major forgeworlds.

>> No.12460236

>>12459615An imperial sergeant was describing Tau vehicles and he said that they make Eldar vehicles look as crude as Orkish vehicles in comparison.

did he say how?

>> No.12460253

>>12460200

Yes a lot of the high-end gear of the Imperium is produced at Mars. Mars can produce anything that any other Forge World can produce, no other Forge World matches Mars for their breadth of production capability. The Mechanicus of Mars like this state of affairs because it means they are top dog and everybody else in inferior. There's no technicale hurdle preventing them from exporting more of their knowledge than politics.

But there's the occasional Forge World that knows how to manufacture plasma weaponry and the "local" Imperial armies that they supply will have more plasma weapons as a result.

>> No.12460256

>>12460169

Necron technology is more advanced than Eldar stuff. The Eldar have a level of mastery of the psychic dimensions of the universe beyond anything else, but the Necrontyr had a higher level of mastery of the physical universe. I mean, shit, they actually finished physics. Technologywise, I'd do them like this.

Necrontyr (comprehensive mastery of multiple fields)

Tyranids (comprehensive mastery of biology and genetics)

Eldar (near-comprehensive mastery of psykery and strong command of warp technology)

Demons (near-comprehensive mastery of Warp sciences and nothing else)

Dark Eldar (much lesser mastery of psykery but better command of warp technology)

Humanity (very high peaks, but very deep and wide troughs between them)

Tau (few peaks, but high base level)

Chaos humanity (parasitic on human tech, no actual understanding of Warp sciences)

Orks (no actual technological insight, technology combination of instinct and gestalt psykery).

>> No.12460261

>>12460203

The tau have higher quality gear than is normal in the Imperium.

The tau have far keener tactical acumen than is normal in the Imperium.

The tau don't view progress or rethinking things to be cancer, which is also not normal in the Imperium.

Its pretty straightforward, why they're doing so well. The irony of the tau is that humans could pull themselves out of their funk and do vastly better than the tau have been doing (proportionately), but they won't, because their taboos and ABYSMAL leadership is just driving them further and further into the ground.

>> No.12460272

>>12460219
I don't give a fuck. They've literally shrugged off every hive fleet (almost all of them went through the general area of Tau space), an ork Waaagh, and an Imperial Crusade dedicated to wiping them out.
One. Fucking. Planet. How many major imperial worlds have been devoured by 'nids or obliterated by Necron? Thousands. Fuck that shit. The Tau have plot armour out the ass.

>> No.12460303

>>12460261
And there are far less tau than humans that need to be equipped.
So humans get mostly equipment that can be easily and cheaply MASS (like shitloads of zeroes after that 1) produce.
Tau couldn't really supply an army that vast.

>> No.12460305

>>12460256

Dark Eldar might be generally more advanced than Eldar actually because they are a remnant of the "original" Eldar empire at it's height. They are at least on parity with the Craftworlders aside from psykery.

>> No.12460312

>>12460303

The Tau could probably attempt to produce a larger army, but they'd have to make sacrifices in quality the way the Imperium does.

>> No.12460324

>>12460272
>The Tau have plot armour out the ass.

Its called common sense. Tau have it, Imperium doesnt.
Tau know when to retreat, something the Imperial Guard and Space Marines never learned.

Seriously, cry more.

>> No.12460338

Am I the only one who wishes they'd just fucking add some more races to the Tau, to make it more credible that they can fight off attackers?

>> No.12460344

>>12460312
That's what I'm saying.
Or what I wanted to say.
And even if they would draft every civilian into the army, they still wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers the imperium has to put up with.

>> No.12460347

>>12460261
Bullshit on all counts. The differences in technology are utterly irrelevant when dealing with but each other. Tactical differences are also completely irrelevant because everyone adapts to fight everyone in 40k, especially Tyranids, whom, I repeat, should have wiped out the Tau about five times now but somehow missed them.

Also, for the record, I would argue that the Imperial tactical ability is superior in most cases. Commanders tend to use their resources quite well, no matter how limited, and of course Space Marines still beat everything the Tau have in every way.

>> No.12460356

>>12460261

No, not really. Despite this being the prevailing interpretation of 40K on /tg/, it's actually not that well substantiated by the fluff itself. Particularly as relates to the way the Mechanicus carries on.

The more proper view is one that has the Imperium full of fools, but in general people are actually trying pretty hard to keep things going, and the level of inefficiency involved is just the way things work when you're trying to control an empire that the Emperor was struggling to control with the full might of his forces at their peak with a force recovered from the broken remnants of the Horus Heresy.

I'll freely admit that my own personal interpretation of the Imperium as more or less the best that humanity could do in an insane situation, with the fuckup leaders beign rare abberations as opposed to the norm is not the most substantiable of interpretations, but even it is more substantiable than the 'dickwaving idiots' one.

>> No.12460357

>>12460305Dark Eldar might be generally more advanced than Eldar actually because they are a remnant of the "original" Eldar empire at it's height. They are at least on parity with the Craftworlders aside from psykery.

Darklight weapons, aka the Dark in Dark Lance, seems to be their edge

the darklight bomb, it's a s9 ap2 bomb, and the fluff says it has a force field to contain the blast 'cause without it the blast would wipe out the bomber and entire battlefield.

>> No.12460376

>>12460324
A crusade, several hive fleets, an ork Waaagh, an outright rebellion by Farsight.

They are plot-armoured.

>> No.12460381

>>12460338Am I the only one who wishes they'd just fucking add some more races to the Tau, to make it more credible that they can fight off attackers?

Ulthwe helps them with their Corsair fleets

>> No.12460386

>>12460324
Retreat where? They don't really have a huge field to move.

>> No.12460388

>>12460272

You really need to reread the Tau fluff, because you have everything backwards. There is one hive fleet that has splinters going through Tau space, and that's the one that had to pass over Macragge, and got mauled by the Ultramarines, and the pacicifus fleet. The Damacles crusade was called off because of the hive fleet approaching, so the Imperium retreated so fast they left regiments behind on captured Tau worlds. The orks never really built up a waaagh against the Tau, and so they aren't much of a threat to off worlders.

seriously, read up on it.

>northave literature

Even captcha says so.

>> No.12460397

>>12460272
The Imperium has millions of worlds. The Tau have what, a few thousand? That makes them harder to find (finding a brown grain of sand in a bucket of tan grains of sand), less of a threat (so why bother putting any real effort into wiping them out?), and also explains why they're lost one planet while the Imperium has lost thousands (if you exploded one tenth of the galaxy at random, the Tau would lose a few hundred planets, the Imperium would lose hundreds of thousands).

>> No.12460398

>>12460272

Thousands of worlds lost because the wrong people were in charge and because of the bias against self sufficient worlds. The whole point behind the Imperium is that it lacks an Emperor, and the pretenders to his rule can't manage an empire worth shit.

>> No.12460402

>>12460324Its called common sense. Tau have it, Imperium doesnt.

? The Imperium's gigantic though, it's easy to find any example of idiocy or competence

They're also the main characters so beset by all sides grimdarkery. Tau are just another antagonist creeping at their border

>> No.12460403

>>12460305
>>12460357

Dark Eldar WOULD have been better, but they lost most of their accumulated knowlegde since it just wasn't that interesting. The actions of a few interested individuals wouldn't have been enough to actually meaningfully preserve that knowledge. Thye have some remnants, yes, but they generally wouldn't understand the principles behind such weapons that would let them apply them into a completely new application.

The DE started in a better position than the Eldar post-fall, but where the DE let it stagnate and degrade, the Eldar focused on improving the psychic field with their defensive monomania.

>> No.12460408

>>12460376
>A crusade, several hive fleets, an ork Waaagh,
Shows how much you can accomplish when you act smart and dont blindly follow dogmas.
>an outright rebellion by Farsight.
farsight never fought against the Tau empire, he just refused to come back

>> No.12460412

>>12460256
problem with ranking the nids is.. well, it seems more like instinct.. or a created race

so, whoever MADE them (if someone did) would be there on the list, but the nids themselves are on an orkish level of technology (I mean, they'll try one thing, if it doesn't work, try something else, repeat until thing is dead). It doesn't seem like they're actually sitting at a desk and planning out 'oh man, we've got to kill these space marines.. but how do we do it?'

Same for Daemons, really. The races who side with them do create some interesting things though (daemon engines, daemon weapons, stuff like that). The daemons themselves aren't really doing any innovating.

I agree with the rest though

>> No.12460415

>>12460397

their worlds number over 100 possibly.

>> No.12460422

>>12460312
>>12460344
caste thing, they can't up their ground forces without breeding a fuckton of fire caste. So uh, come back in 15 years ^_^

>> No.12460432

>>12460303

USA didn't have this problem in WW II.

In matter of fact having a large army to supply is only an issue if you don't have logistical capability, resources or an industrial structure to support it.

And the IoM theoretically have all listed above, but sheer incompetence, bureaucracy and all taboos regarding advancing their tech and spreading more advanced methods across the IoM hold them back a lot.

It was stated that bolter shells are expensive as fuck, but why do the imperial guard uses a shitload of them on their crewed weapons instead of a cheaper equivalent ?

>> No.12460433

>>12460408
What do you mean don't blindly follow dogmas? They're literally mind-controlled by the Ethereals. Shows how much you can accomplish my ass. There's no accomplishment there, everything just passed right over them somehow. It's plot armour.

You have no right to say otherwise or deny it at this point, and you're blinded by fanboyism if you do.

>> No.12460435

>>12460412
Soul grinders? They're a personal favorite bit of fluff, because they're proof that even greater daemons can rebel against their gods and exist on a long term basis in the material world.

>> No.12460442

>>12460141
Actually I think they could fix it by just moving the Tau into the "Northeastern" corner of the milky-way, aka "that part of the galaxy that nothing ever happens in since the astronomicron doesn't reach it."
You can give them a decent sized empire, and an explaination for why they were able to advance unmolested for millenniua.
I mean, that section of space is just sitting there, with nothing happening in it.
But I agree that the current scale of the Tau "Empire" makes little sense given the scope of all the other factions.

>> No.12460444

>>12460403Dark Eldar WOULD have been better, but they lost most of their accumulated knowlegde since it just wasn't that interesting.

Dark Eldar can make clones, they can regrow a person from their hand and re-insert their soul.

They can come back to life from being exploded. Their technology is extremely good.

and right now, reading that codex, they seem a lot more vital than Craftworlders. If there's any hopes of restoring the Empire, it's with the Commragh Eldar.

>> No.12460449
File: 156 KB, 600x502, techpriest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460449

>>12460422
>^_^
Why do I get the feeling that you're fapping to delicious blue chicks right now?

>> No.12460455

>>12460090
>Alright then, fuckface, 2nd edition Wargear book. At the storytime pages in the back. The one that involves the Chaos-Imperium boarding action.

Just read the story again.
There is no mention of teleporters still being produced.

>> No.12460460

>>12460433
Dogma doesn't mean what you think it means.

>> No.12460465

>>12460397
Harder to find!? For fuck's sake, Tyranids don't give a shit how hard you are to find, they find you anyway. You're making excuses now.

>> No.12460466

>>12460433
It's the ethereals that aren't blinded by dogma, and since they're acting smart and mind-controlling everybody, then he's pretty much right about how it 'shows what happens when you act smart'. The entire race doesn't have to act smart for him to be right.

>> No.12460471

>>12460432And the IoM theoretically have all listed above, but sheer incompetence, bureaucracy and all taboos regarding advancing their tech and spreading more advanced methods across the IoM hold them back a lot.

Imperial technology is already high. It's efficient

It's simply much more economical to send a million guys with cheap guns and armor to their deaths, than to give them all carapace and send them to their deaths.

>> No.12460476

The Imperium was always going to have problems. Any empire that's larger than you can quickly send messages across is going to have serious issues, and this is without Chaos, Orks and Nids OH MY!

The Tau empire doesn't have the size issues that the Imperium is dealing with. It's not going to be a target for a Black Crusade anytime soon, It's never faced a WAAAGH! Like what hit Armageddon, and hasn't ever had to cope with more than a Tyranid splinter fleet. It also doesn't have the "Being pants on head retarded" issues that the Imperium creates for itself, by centralizing all their technical know how on one planet that's also a prison for an alien star vampire, and all their administrative decision making on one planet, basically ensuring that trying to get the imperium to do anything is trying to get a glacier to tap dance.

>> No.12460482

>>12460403
Wasn't the Dark Eldar city a prison pre-fall?

Either way, I'm not sure if they'd make many advances between screwing, torturing, and whatever else it is they do in that place.

>> No.12460484

>>12460449
If he is, he'd better share.

>> No.12460488

I thought there was an ork Warlord who's been kicking Tau ass lately

The orks are outmaneuvering the Tau, outgunning them and baiting them into kunnin' traps

Every battle winds up with more loot for the orks.

>> No.12460489

according to GW Insider the Tau are getting Warp travel soon.

when/if that happens the Tau are gonna get cereal. Super cereal.

>> No.12460498

>>12460432
Dude.
Travel in the warp is not a fixed thing you can calculate into your plans.
Sometimes going from point A to B takes a week, other times it's up to three months (made up numbers but you get the point).
And sometimes it just gets lost. (inb4 100 baneblades)

And the sheer size of the bureaucracy makes it guaranteed that some requests get misplaced/forgotten/mishandled.

Now count into this their relationship with technology, like how the adeptus mechanicus won't really have the ability to produce said baneblades ANYWHERE in the Imperium, yet alone willing to do so.

>> No.12460499

>>12460466
The Ethereals aren't smart though. They're unaware of their weakness and the Farsight Rebellion proved it when they sent only a single Ethereal. And by your very same logic, the Imperium's leaders are all fucking geniuses, since they've held the Imperium together for 10,000 years while the Tau can't even keep an eye on all their colonial worlds.

>> No.12460503

>>12460412

The Tyranids themselves are not intelligent, but the Hive Mind is definitively a form of intelligence. Not conscious, no, but intelligent nonetheless. It's a subconscious sapience, which is one of the reasons it trips psykers the fuck out.

The Tyranids have a level of mastery of genetics that is literally as advanced as it may be possible to achieve. They can actively discriminate the ffects of individual portions of genetic code of extant organisms and its applications to entire other extant organisms. They can even create original organisms in abstract genetic templates, which is something that may not actually be feasible in our universe. The only possible route of expansion left them is sentient genetics, the creation of genetic code sequences that are in and of themselves self-aware and capable of self-manipulation a la Prototype's Mercer, and that is actually probably impossible.

The Demons of the warp are sapient and do understand what they do, it's just that they have developed such mastery of the warp that their actions appear to be natural. The only advances the Chaos species make tend to be bestowed on them by Daemons.

The Orks are invalid comparions. They have a level of innate intelligence, but mostly they brute force their technology into working by means of gestalt psychic brute force. A good thing, too, since if Orks understood the potential of such an ability it would be rather bad for everything else ever.

>> No.12460507

>>12460415
actually I think there are like 30some "septs" with unknown number of "allies"

>> No.12460508

>>12460489
Hopefully with three or four new races, because if they start bouncing around with warp travel and make an actual nuisance of themselves, even I won't be able to rationalize their continued survival.

>> No.12460509

>It's simply much more economical to send a million guys with cheap guns and armor to their deaths, than to give them all carapace and send them to their deaths.

And of course, it'd be far more economical to produce more elite troops like space marines, as pretty much every bit of fluff shows space marines are ridiculously efficient compared to the guard.

The reason they don't produce space marines is because their technology base has deteriorated, but even so, temple assassins are even more potent than space marines, and they sure as hell could make more than they do.

>> No.12460510

>>12460433
>They're literally mind-controlled by the Ethereals
nope they arent. stop imagining tau fluff that doesnt exist.

inb4 but that one book said tau secrete pheromones
(the same book that potrays tau with regular feet btw)

guess what? Humans do as well, as do almost all animals. Are they all mind controlled too?

>> No.12460513

>>12460433

> They're literally mind-controlled by the Ethereals.

Not all of them, not all the time, and that still doesn't qualify as dogma, just enforced loyalty. Dogma applies to following a specific set of tenants, Tau loyalty is to a group of people, who aren't completely averse to changing tactics to suit changing situations like the Imperium is.

> You have no right to say otherwise or deny it at this point, and you're blinded by fanboyism if you do.

Okay, now you're just being ridiculous.

>> No.12460520

>>12460482Either way, I'm not sure if they'd make many advances between screwing, torturing, and whatever else it is they do in that place.

Their medical technology is really good, their warriors can recover from fatal wounds in a day.
An extension of that is their poisons

Webway related tech is also good

Their "harnessed power of shattered suns" lance weapons are also pretty powerful.

Also have those Soul Rending weapons that turn you into glass and stuff.

Dark Eldar don't come off as less advanced than Craftworlders, if anything their tech is better.

They have no wraithbone to work with though, so CWE stuff is sturdier and psychic by default

>> No.12460527

>>12460507
Septs are their core worlds, "civilized" worlds as it were. They have a bunch more colonies that don't qualify as that, in addition to the allies you mentioned. Plus, newly conquered worlds aren't counted as Septs.

>> No.12460533

>>12460510

dude that's a basic part of Tau fluff. That's why Farsight went batty

next thing you're gonna tell me that dark angels have no secrets, they just like wearing hoods and touching butts.

>> No.12460538

>>12460498

They do make Baneblades. Some Forgeworlds are only able to produce inferior copies of baneblades due to Mars not sending them the original STC, but they are made in several Forgeworlds.

>> No.12460550

>>12460527

how many Tau live in a sept world?

>> No.12460562

>>12460513
They ARE constantly mind-controlled by Ethereals, for Christ's sake. The Farsight Rebellion shows what happens when they are not. The Tau don't give a shit about the Greater Good unless an Ethereal wants them to. The Vespid are mind-controlled. The Kroot are mercenary and don't give a shit about the Greater Good so much as they do Tau technology.
The Tau Empire is held together through mind control, and only through mind control. Which is why they belong in 40k. What pisses me off is the fact that GW gives them so much fucking plot armour without actually explaining how they have it. I can picture all of the fucks writing this shit sitting there with their best trollfaces while they do it. At least the plot armour everyone else occasionally gets is thoroughly explained, but the best GW has for the Tau is about as good as "a wizard did it".

>> No.12460568

>>12460533
>dude that's a basic part of Tau fluff
no it isnt. stop imagining things

>That's why Farsight went batty
oh really. please direct me to a source then

I swear to god the majority of /tg/ is so fucking blind when it comes to tau fluff.

>> No.12460570

Man, tau fluff threads are nowhere near as fun as dark eldar ones

>> No.12460576

>>12460533
There would literally have to be an Ethereal within 10 feet of every Tau, every day, every where, for 'phermones' to make sense.
They could be psychic, but I at least don't know of any sources stating they've actively displayed those kinds of abilities (psychic powers always have tells).
And the Tau race was literally tearing itself apart into extinction without them, so I don't get why everyone gets so bent out of shape that they are in charge.

>> No.12460579

>>12460533
No, its a basic part of a book that is blatantly false.

You'd also think the tau wouldn't have an emphasis on breath-sealed suits if they were controlled by ethereal pheremones, or if they did, that they'd have the pheremones replicated in each suit, obviating the need to have an ethereal on the field.

>> No.12460586

>>12460520

Relics of the old Eldar, I'd say.

Let's face it, when you have a hyperfetishist race with a lust for strong feelings, spending thirty years of boring calculations and experiments to discover that Warp energy carefully induced into a psychogravitonic field allows you to artificially create left-flavoured Leptons just isn't able to compete.

>> No.12460593
File: 30 KB, 200x249, troll-slayer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460593

>>12460568trollolololo

!!

>> No.12460595

>>12460533
the devilfish is a pressurized envrionment.

How come the firewarriors dont revolt when they are in a transport?

>> No.12460596

>>12460503
>The Tyranids themselves are not intelligent, but the Hive Mind is definitively a form of intelligence.
oh, definitely. What I mean is that the Hive Mind is certainly up there, but the Tyranids are more like.. meat puppets? Animals slaved to its will? Without the hive mind, they'd be much less.. able

>The Tyranids have a level of mastery of genetics that is literally as advanced as it may be possible to achieve
Rather than the Tyranids themselves, I see it as the Hive mind who has this mastery. The tyranids can only replicate things that have already been inserted into their genetic memory. They do have the capacity to rapidly evolve.. but it seem like something 'built in' to 'naturally' occur rather than something they are aware of

>The Demons of the warp are sapient and do understand what they do, it's just that they have developed such mastery of the warp that their actions appear to be natural. The only advances the Chaos species make tend to be bestowed on them by Daemons.
I guess so, but they are beings MADE of warp-stuff, so it doesn't seem right to call it a kind of technology. It's when you deal with material technology working in tandem with daemonic beings/energies that you start to see (in my mind) 'true' chaos/warp tech

All opinions on my part though. I can certainly understand how you would see it the other way

>> No.12460598

>>12460570
I'm just glad I got the scoop on the new lore.
Robber Baron haemonculi and pimping out the Duke's Raider with fancy lamp decorations, here I come.

>> No.12460599

>>12460568
Yes it is part of Tau fluff, you fucking moron. Why did Farsight rebel as soon as the Ethereal died, despite being "loyal" to the Tau his whole life? Xenology says that's what happened, but /tg/ is full of shit and doesn't accept that as fluff. Why don't you try reading the Tau codicies and seeing what they say about the Farsight rebellion and Ethereals?

>> No.12460600

>>12460533

> dude that's a basic part of Tau fluff.

It's only actually stated in one place. Xenology. Which is rather infamous for getting things wrong. Everything else on them is rather vague, as is standard for GW.

> That's why Farsight went batty

There are any number of reasons why Farsight might have gone rogue (not batty, from what we know he's still mentally healthy, just more aggressive than most Tau). His sword is one.

>> No.12460612

>>12460471

>It's simply much more economical to send a million guys with cheap guns and armor to their deaths, than to give them all carapace and send them to their deaths.

Only if you have the soviet mentality that you can successfully counter tech with more of every crappy thing you have.

Plus on the long run it is hard to tell which one is cheaper: having a shitload of people and cheap gear deployed with high casualty rates or having a smaller more efficient army with a lower casualty rate.

Just think on the Cold War US vs USSR.

While the US invested in more expensive soldiers and gear the USSR invested in sheer number strategy based on that quantity is a quality of its own, they both can cost the same amount of money in the long end, but the second one is more resource intensive since you lost a lot more material and personnel than the first but that is something the IoM doesn't care much about.

>> No.12460615

>>12460595
Clearly the Ethereals can target troops inside transports with their psychic powers, though that'll probably get axed in the next book to bring it in line with other psychic powers.

>> No.12460622

>>12460576
>>12460579
>>12460600
>>12460595
Because pheremones take more than a few hours to wear off perhaps? Farsight was fighting for weeks before he said "fuck it" and left after the Ethereal died.

>> No.12460627

>>12460612Plus on the long run it is hard to tell which one is cheaper: having a shitload of people and cheap gear deployed with high casualty rates or having a smaller more efficient army with a lower casualty rate.

what, you mean SPACE MARINES?

>> No.12460628

>>12460579
>>12460576
>>12460568
>>12460562

I don't think it's pheromonal control, but there is a very strong implication that SOMETHING the Ethereals do gives them an uncanny level of control over the will of conventional Tau that can't be explained by social methods alone, but without saying what that something is. If I had to speculate, I'd suggest that there's some level of psychic influence in the Ethereals since the Eldar had something to do with them, but I can't see what it could be. Maybe the Ethereals were redesigned by the Eldar to tap in on the instinctual command imagery of the Tau so that they triggered eveyr social psychological and physiological cue indicating 'listen to this man' at the same time, allowing them effectively total control simply because the Tau are on autopilot to such authority.

>> No.12460630

>>12460599
>Why did Farsight rebel as soon as the Ethereal died, despite being "loyal" to the Tau his whole life?

Huh... hmmm.. let me think...

MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE WEIRD ASS GLOWING BLADE HE FOUND AND DECIDED TO WIELD IN CLOSE COMBAT SOMETHING EVERY TAU NORMALLY DESPISES. OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING CHANGED HIM.

there are countless tau without a etherial, no one abbandons the greater good.

there is only one tau that wields farsights blade, he revolts

OBVIOUSLY ITS BECAUSE OF THE EHTERIALS NOT BECAUSE OF THE BLADE

jesus fuck...

>> No.12460641

>>12460628
the crystals in their foreheads have something to due with it

but who knows otherwise

mind, Tau rebels/mercenaries are much, MUCH more interesting to me

>> No.12460649

From what I remember on Tau fluff...

the Tau used to be at war all the time with one another

then the Ethereals flew down from the sky and handed down the Law, and the regular Tau listened to them.

So after the miraculous heavenly descent of the Ethereals their race stopped fighting each other and unified.

I think that leaves plenty of room to ponder how they did that.

I also remember some story where a Tau reporter is commenting on something that uses pheromon control and goes "lawl thass so silly they use pheromones, they aint super loyal like us Tau"

>> No.12460651

Are there anu Dark Eldar scans yet?

>> No.12460652

>>12460627
Carapace stormers with hellguns (yes, hellguns, no shitty "hot-shot" nonsense) would be more akin to what he's talking about.
Probably wouldn't be hard to train and equip a few billion if the IoM's infrastructure is as awesome as everyone says it is.
>>12460628
Could be similar to the ork psychic field.

>> No.12460656

>>12460599

The Tau codex actually doesn't say much, just that he continued his campaign against the orks after the Ethereals died, and once it was done did not return and instead set up his enclaves along the frontier. As for the reasoning, the codex suggests that it was the logical progression from his earlier career, as he had been growing increasingly bitter and aggressive even when under ethereal supervision.

Though it does hint that the Dawn Blade might have something to do with it. If memory serves GW made a big deal about that a while back.

>> No.12460663
File: 886 KB, 847x584, grimdark tau.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460663

>Tau tech is so far ahead of anything else seen it is not funny

That's because Tau teck Is based off a human STC that the Eldar secretly gave them as an experiment.

>> No.12460664

>>12460509
Space Marines are far from being anywhere near efficient. Most chapters kill 100 or better potential recruits to get one rookie, and then it takes decades for this rookie to become a regular space marine(unless he's Black Templar or Space Wolves, then its another story). That aside, there are only about 1 million space marines in the galaxy, but hundreds of billions of guard/PDF.

Space Marines are only good if used like an SF unit. Try to use them in line combat and they're only as good as 10 guardsman.

>> No.12460667

>>12460612
The Imperium runs on the philosophy "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why outfit Guardsmen with more expensive equipment if, in the end, it won't make any real difference? Besides that, Carapace Armour and Hellguns are expensive as fuck, and outfitting the entire Guard with them would bankrupt the Imperium.
A lasgun will kill an ork, a gaunt, or a Fire Warrior just as well as a Hellgun will. The Hellgun just does a bit more damage is all. A lasgun and hellgun against a Space Marine will have the exact same result, scratched paint. Same thing with Necron and bigger Tyranid forms.

There's just no point in giving standard Guardsmen gear that won't make a difference and will bankrupt the Imperium. Stormtroopers get the cool shit because Carapace Armour and Hellguns are more effective in a tactical situation than they are in a strategic situation. Certain Guard regiments DO actually get hellguns and carapace armour, but they're also very tactical more than strategic, such as the Harakoni Warhawks.

>> No.12460669

>>12460649
>I also remember some story where a Tau reporter is commenting on something that uses pheromon control and goes "lawl thass so silly they use pheromones, they aint super loyal like us Tau"

yeah its fanfiction you read on /tg/.

/tg/ has a very delicate fanon when it comes to Tau which is pretty much the exact opposite of what tau actually stand for and what is supported by the codex.

>> No.12460670

>>12460612
>Only if you have the soviet mentality that you can successfully counter tech with more of every crappy thing you have.
>Citation Needed
The Soviet Union had more troops and vehicles because its war plan was a ground war spent mainly on the attack.

>> No.12460686

ITT, some tau people say tau are super logical realistic guis an make fun of stupid ignorant backwards religious imperium, then some other guys say pheromones, then the tau go "NO U SPEAK HERESY!!"

>> No.12460691

>>12460622
Most Tau go for a very, very long time without being near an Ethereal. Pathfinder teams, stealth suit teams, and other advanced units will often times be out of direct contact for quite some time. Why don't they end up going AWOL all the time?

Or is it possible that the reason Farsight went rogue and not all the thousands of pathfinders and stealth suit teams who operate far beyond the range of an Ethereal might have something to do with the crazy alien sword that he found shortly before he went rogue?

>> No.12460699

>>12460652

I doubt it's anything liek the Ork psychic field, which works on sheer brute force. Besides, the sucky soul-presence of the Tau rule out strong psychic means. I'd say if it is psychic, it'd be extremely subtle, like targeting a vulnerable point in the Tau psychology in such a way that everything an Ethereal says will just make so much sense it's OBVIOUS, DUH. Again, I don't like this one that much since it'd be pretty strong.

As for the Imperium, it can waste lives because lives are the only resource it has in surplus, and a huge fucking surplus at that.

>> No.12460701

>>12460663
>OMG THEY HAVE LENSES IN THEIR FACE.
THEY MUST BE 1984 FOR REAL GUYS!

are you done grasping at straws?

>> No.12460702

>>12460667
Hellguns are AP3 now, so they mow through marines.

>> No.12460703
File: 141 KB, 560x748, 1240932998542.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460703

>>12460652

Thank you.

Plus am I the only one who'd like to see more "modern" versions of the IG mechanized units as standard models ?

>> No.12460704
File: 18 KB, 650x483, valkp1b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460704

>>12460667The Imperium runs on the philosophy "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why outfit Guardsmen with more expensive equipment if, in the end, it won't make any real difference?

just to remind everyone, the IG with carapace, grave chutes and skimmers are the Elysians.

They also did poorly in combat with the Tau but I forget why, think their commander goof'd

>> No.12460711

>>12460664
>Space Marines are only good if used like an SF unit. Try to use them in line combat and they're only as good as 10 guardsman.\

That's kind of the point. Space Marines are a tactical force. The Deathwatch rulebook has a very good quote about it. It says that Space Marines are meant to strike at the enemy's very heart, and cut it out. A single attack in the right place can make an entire war change directions. Normal humans are incapable of doing it most of the time because you'd have to deploy hundreds of Guardsmen to pull it off. With Space Marines not so much. A company of space marines will win the battle that wins the war that wins the crusade.

That's why they exist.

>> No.12460723

>>12460667
No, they run on the philosophy "don't change anything." Broke or not, they don't change. This is one of the reasons why ork kommandos are so effective, the people who try to tell their superiors about them are shot for cowardice and incompetence because the Imperium refuses to admit that their dogma regarding the orks might possibly be wrong.

>> No.12460726

>>12460465

Tau have a almost non existent psychic signature, so they are pretty invisible to the hive fleets, also why they don't attract daemons like other races tend to.

>> No.12460727

>>12460702
Table top is not an accurate representation of fluff. That was done for balance. A hellgun will not do shit to a Space Marine in fluff.

>> No.12460732

>Other studies have demonstrated that the smell of androstadienone, a chemical component of male sweat, maintains higher levels of cortisol in females,[ and that the compound is detected via the olfactory mucosa. The scientists suggest that the ability of this compound to influence the endocrine balance of the opposite sex makes it a human pheromonal chemosignal. In 2002, a study showed an unnamed synthetic chemical in women's perfume appeared to increase intimate contact with men.

omg humans are mindcontrolled!

>> No.12460733

>>12460667
See, this is my problem with the fluff.
The IoM is a place where any FTL travel or messages may not be received for weeks, years, or decades after they are originally sent, if they are received at all.
You need better soldiers with better gear and less casualties because you aren't supposed to be able to rely on consistent resupplies and reinforcements.
But of course, humanity always wins, even if it does take the last of those 10 million conscripts to win, so I don't actually have a source to support that claim.
Christ, 40k is really badly designed when you get down to the brass tacks.

>> No.12460735

>>12460701

Did you seriously just pay more attention to the pic than to the post?

>> No.12460742
File: 30 KB, 444x319, m500484a_99110101430_SpaceWolvesCanisMain_445x319 (2).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460742

>>12460664


do you reaaaally want to argue efficiency/logic/realism over space marines?

>> No.12460743

>>12460723
You are quite wrong. The Imperium adopts new tactics and gear depending on whom they are fighting, and your example with kommandos is a poor one because the Imperium is very aware of them and knows to look out for them when dealing with Blood Axes.

>> No.12460745

>>12460691
>might have something to do with the crazy alien sword that he found shortly before he went rogue?
oh, it has everything to do with the sword

but there's certainly SOMETHING going on with the ethereals.

man, they need to bring Aun'shi back.. he's the only cool ethereal

>> No.12460752

>>12460699
>like targeting a vulnerable point in the Tau psychology in such a way that everything an Ethereal says will just make so much sense it's OBVIOUS, DUH

or you know the concept of the greater good ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

Tau were on the brink of destruction, the Etherials saved them with reason and logic. Tau believe in the greater good because it makes sense

>> No.12460761
File: 91 KB, 420x337, Kommandos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460761

>>12460743
Ork kommandos aren't exactly new. The orks don't really change. In fact, they change even less than the Imperium, they're the one constant in the universe. And even then the Imperium can't keep up, they're that mired in dogma.

>> No.12460764

>>12460652Probably wouldn't be hard to train and equip a few billion if the IoM's infrastructure is as awesome as everyone says it is.

on the planets that do produce legions of carapace hotshot lasgunners, the infrastructure is good.

I dunno, I feel we're comparing the United States to Vatican City and blaming the US for having Detroit

>> No.12460769

>>12460703

No, but you're a small minority. Every damned game wants to look 'modern'. If I wanted to play a 'modern' tank game I'd play those games.

Make your own, if you like. Say they're the self-produced patterns of your local world.

The Imperium just uses more guys because they're cheap.

"Sir, if we give all our forces Hellguns and Carapace Armour, we can triple their combat effectiveness!"
"Interesting. The cost?"
"Well, the Forgeworld says we'll need to BYO materials for the Hellguns, and we'd need to update our training regime, so... six hundred million thrones."
"Bah. You want to triple effectiveness? Why not just use three times as many men? What would that cost?"
"Seventy million thrones, maybe, for training?"
"Problem solved. I'm going to take lunch."

>> No.12460770

>>12460727
bullshit, in the "fluff" space marines get stomped on by primitives riding dinosaurs, blown up by heavy weapons teams, torn to shred by cultists with knives and even insta gibbed by lasguns.

>> No.12460777

>>12460752
Tell that to Farsight and all of his men who stopped giving a shit when their Ethereal died, the Vespid that they mind control, and the Kroot who have no idea what the Tau are going on about.
I'm sure it making sense is why they have "re-education facilities" for humans they capture, and sterilize them when there's too many to "re-educate".

>> No.12460784

>>12460723No, they run on the philosophy "don't change anything." Broke or not, they don't change. This is one of the reasons why ork kommandos are so effective, the people who try to tell their superiors about them are shot for cowardice and incompetence because the Imperium refuses to admit that their dogma regarding the orks might possibly be wrong.

There's also a story of Blood Axe orks ambushing Tau, and the Tau were shocked that orks could be so tactical in thought

>> No.12460786

>Space Marines are far from being anywhere near efficient. Most chapters kill 100 or better potential recruits to get one rookie,

You aren't paying for those recruits, and its more to ensure that only people who REALLY REALLY REALLY want to become mereens will successfully do so. BA recruits are, for instance, horrific radiation mutants, so its not as if they need physically superior specimens of humanity, and training will pretty much ensure everyone's the same level of competence. On top of that, plenty of space marines get killed off as a matter of protocol, like librarians, so there's a lot of unnecessary deaths in the process.

>Space Marines are only good if used like an SF unit. Try to use them in line combat and they're only as good as 10 guardsman.

That's still not bad, because you have to have around 100 or so support personnel to handle every troop in combat, including logistics and such. The main reason SM probably use chainswords realistically is to conserve ammo when they're far from friendlies, not because it otherwise makes sense... but who knows.

I still think a mix of guard tanks and SM infantry would be better than the current model.

>> No.12460804

>>12460735
yeah I did.
Never post a picture that is more interessting than your post.

Anyway, isnt the the stuff you said from xenology as well?
Because if thats the case its most probably wrong.

>> No.12460808

>>12460752

I don't think you seem to appreciate the way 40K actually works. Like, at all.

>> No.12460814

>>12460743
Tell me. Why don't tactical marines carry close combat weapons? Why aren't assault marines allowed to carry bolters? Why don't the marines wear camouflage? Because all of that is against their traditions, and their precious codex. Only a few chapters are willing to break those rules, chapters like the Space Wolves (for the first) and Raven Guard (for the third). The vast majority stick to a strict interpretation of the codex and discourage any deviation.

>> No.12460818

>>12460770
Yeah, and in fluff written by Gav Thorpe, an original founder of GW and one of the key contributors to the Codex fluff, a lone Space Marine takes just about every weapon the Tau have at pointblank, and comes out of it with damaged armour. After he killed them all.

Book was Kill Team, if you're wondering.

>> No.12460819

>>12460733Christ, 40k is really badly designed when you get down to being a huge faggot

>> No.12460820
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12460820

>>12460733

There wasn't a part in the fluff where a Death Korps of Krieg division where sent to pacify a planet but due to some warp shit the battle group arrived 100 years after the planet was totally destroyed ?

Also, the Cadians are the best Guard regiment out in the IoM, so why the hell they don't receive better issue gear than most regiments ?

The elysians have the excuse that they are rich, the Steel legion has a better mechanized army then most regiments, the Gaunt Ghosts have tactical brilliance and most of the other regiments have numbers.

>> No.12460825

>>12460711
They're good at what they do, but they're hardly the only way to do it. Stormtroopers can easily get in and accomplish the same thing, they just aren't likely to survive the encounter.

IG and the Navy still do the VAST majority of fighting(guess who actually won at Macrage, as a hint, it wasn't the dead guys of the smurf's first company).

>> No.12460835
File: 70 KB, 200x251, space-wolf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460835

>>12460814Why don't the marines wear camouflage?

because Space Wolf Grey works in all environments, any conditions

Space Wolves also fought the Tau underwater and smashed their battlesuits.

Space Wolves don't wear helmets.

>> No.12460837

>>12460784
Considering the Tau are quite new on the galactic stage, them being surprised by something isn't, well, all that much of a surprise. The Imperium, however, has had thousands of years to learn, yet it still hasn't.

>> No.12460838

.>>12460777
>and sterilize them when there's too many to "re-educate".
You know, I've only seen the sterilization thing in the (non-canon) dark crusade Tau ending, which they did to the humans they'd been taking care of THAT REVOLTED as soon as the Imperials showed up.
BFG actually has a nice page long story about a navy crew joining up, and the Tau are pretty stoked about it. AND they weren't waving scissors around either.

>> No.12460840

>>12460777
>Tell that to Farsight and all of his men who stopped giving a shit when their Ethereal died
Dawnblade

>the Vespid that they mind control
no such thing exists. they wear interface helmets, when the leader dies they dont revolt, they flee because they cant get order anymore.

>and the Kroot who have no idea what the Tau are going on about.
simply wrong. Kroot swore eternal allegiance to the tau empire after the Tau helped them clear pech of Orks.
>I'm sure it making sense is why they have "re-education facilities" for humans they capture, and sterilize them when there's too many to "re-educate".
video games are not fluff.

>> No.12460850

>>12460786
>The main reason SM probably use chainswords realistically is to conserve ammo when they're far from friendlies

nah, Space marines are 'shock and awe' personfed. They use chainswords and bolters because, well, it's intimidating

EIGHT FOOT BEHEMOTH JUST SAWED MY BUDDY IN HALF OH GOD EVERYTHING IS EXPLODING

same mentality for drop pods. I mean, marines aren't normally found in extended campaigns, despite the fluff/art's love of the "marine pile"

>> No.12460854

>>12460814
Yeah, even though there are ways in which SM are pretty smart (like the way they rule Ultramar) I was pretty much dumbstruck when I found out about how the Codex Astartes bans them from carrying a bolt pistol AND a bolt rifle.

>> No.12460856

>>12460820Also, the Cadians are the best Guard regiment out in the IoM, so why the hell they don't receive better issue gear than most regiments ?


they have Everything

Elysian Drop Troops? Cadian Drop Troops
Storm Troopers? Cadia doesn't requisition them, they produce their own
Need masses of cheap bodies? White Shields are always ready to be tested.

Cadia can do anything any other guard regiment does.

>> No.12460865

Not even as advanced as the Imperium, although they are advancing a lot quicker (Imperial technology is practically unchangeing).

>> No.12460869

>>12460850
They still use chainswords against orks, tyranids, and daemons, though.

>> No.12460872

>>12460733

If reinforcements might not be coming then you start producing local equipment, which will be of lower quality than distant Mars can supply. The Imperium's tanks can rely on a supply lineall the way back to their Forgeworld, they need to run on what the planet has available if necessary. Equipment has to be capable of being maintained by field technicians.

>> No.12460875

>>12460818
You said that hellguns would not do shit to a marine in the fluff, and yet in the fluff there are numerous instances of marines going down to all sorts of stuff less then a hellgun.

>> No.12460881

>>12460837The Imperium, however, has had thousands of years to learn, yet it still hasn't.

what is 'it'?

the imperium is gigantic. Its got idiots and it's got geniuses.

Sometimes the orks are idiots, sometimes the orks are geniuses

I'm not really sure what the argument is anyways

>> No.12460884

>>12460804
>Anyway, isnt the the stuff you said from xenology as well?

No that's my own fan-wankery conspiracy.

Eldar were instrumental in the evolution of the Ta, that much is officially canon. (though what they did, we're not sure)

I just thought it would be the greatest of ironies if all Tau tech was based off of human archeotech STC templates the Eldar found and slowly introduced to the Tau. Kind of a cruel joke on Mankind if we ever found out the "Xenos Tech" we shun so much is in fact our own tech. To which the Eldar laugh their dicks off showing us what mankind "could have been".

Mind-asplode!

Because really, outside of a few modifications, Tau tech looks very human in design.

>> No.12460887

>>12460865(Imperial technology is practically unchangeing)

>> No.12460892

>>12460820
Cadians don't get better gear than the rest because they have over 600 regiments just in garrison to supply on top of their Caskern companies(hellguns for all!)

>> No.12460896

>>12460835

Marines don't wear camouflage because it's irrelevant to their mission. They don't do line combat. They hit the enemy in the one place they don't expect it, and hit them with such immediacy of force that by the time the enemy commander has figured out just what the shitting fuck is going on and manages to rally a meaningful response ot the situation, the situation has changed so muc hthat his response is no longer applicable. They strike individual soldiers with such immediacy of force that they don't have time to fight back effectively, and move with so much momentum that any sufficiently powerful force to entrap and destroy them simply can't get there in time. Sort of like a combination of the small-scale tactics of the initial Delta Force training program with the strategic maneuvering of the Halo franchise;'s Spartans. Lurid colours only help here.

>> No.12460901

>>12460814
>Tell me. Why don't tactical marines carry close combat weapons?
They do in fluff, and even on the Table-top. Read the rules, then read a book. Almost all Space Marines carry a bolter and chainsword, or at least an Astartest Combat Knife.

>Why aren't assault marines allowed to carry bolters?
They are allowed to carry bolters, but they're meant for assault, not sniping. They serve their own tactical purpose.

>Why don't the marines wear camouflage?
Scouts do, as do Space Marines doing stealth-based missions. They don't need it painted on their armour because they have better gear than simple camo-designs.

>Because all of that is against their traditions, and their precious codex.
Codex has people using certain troops for certain purposes, but in the end the person in charge still has final say, just like in real life warfare.

>Only a few chapters are willing to break those rules,
No, all of them except the Ultramarines and their break-aways deviate from the Codex.

>The vast majority stick to a strict interpretation of the codex and discourage any deviation.
Again, just Ultramarines.

>>12460820
Cadians get insanely good training along with their own form of Stormtrooper units.

>> No.12460902

>>12460884Because really, outside of a few modifications, Tau tech looks very human in design.

don't you mean Orky?

>> No.12460908

>>12460884

Well there's a reason for that.

But it has nothing to do with in universe fluff.

>> No.12460912

>>12460881
The "it" being the Imperial Guard in this case. The problem is that they stick to their 10,000 year old military doctrines that weren't even right then, and still aren't right now, just because they're from 10,000 years ago. That's Imperium dogma right there.

>> No.12460930

>>12460901
> even on the Table-top
No, they don't. The standard codex tactical marine only carries a bolter and a bolt pistol, no CCW. That's why the Space Wolves and the Chaos Space Marines have an advantage over them in melee.

>> No.12460934

>>12460912
actually I don;t think they have. IG used to use autoguns and the prevalence of las sniper weapons is a comparatively recent development.

>> No.12460939

It's not that Human tech is unchanging.

It's just that Mars is really slow to roll out new tech, because when they "do", they roll it out for everyone at the same time.

Part of the Emperor's plan for humanities survival is that no matter where you go in the Galaxy, a lasgun is a lasgun, a light switch is a light switch, ect ect.

Roll out too many new techs at once. not everyone gets their hands on them. Some are left out, entire solar systems of humans traveling unfamiliar with the tech on another planet trying to survive = dead humans for the most part.

It's all a very controlled, planned process.

tau are able to put out new tech quicker because of their lower population

>> No.12460940
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12460940

I'll just leave this here.

Imperiumfags gonna get told in 2011.

>> No.12460952

>>12460872
But that clearly isn't the case, since they just clog up the enemy plasma cannons with bodies and gear.
It isn't just better equipment either, it is better training overall.
But I mean, that's breaking with the whole imperial guard shtick, and I'm kind of making it not-40k at this point so I'll just end that line of thinking.
Doesn't change the fact that using infantry charges in a universe where reinforcements might not come isn't incredibly stupid without plot conveniences.

>> No.12460954

>>12460814

>Tell me. Why don't tactical marines carry close combat weapons?
uh, they do. Game mechanics =/= actual fluff. Combat knives are standard issue (monofilament no less)

>Why aren't assault marines allowed to carry bolters?
because it contradicts their purpose. You aren't going to be using a bolter very well when rocketing all over the place, in the thick of things. These guys storm barricades, they won't need more than their pistol/ccw/grenades

>Why don't the marines wear camouflage?
they do. Maybe not all the time (heyo, pride!), but they certainly do. for the most part they really don't NEED stealth, because they solve things in a single battle, and all of their weapons are LOUD AS FUCK. Transports? Yeah, they're often camouflaged. Check the Badab war, check the older RT books.

>Because all of that is against their traditions, and their precious codex.
The codex is an effective way of fighting with space marines. It's more vast than you give it credit for (guess what, the camouflage? all codex baby)

>Only a few chapters are willing to break those rules. The vast majority stick to a strict interpretation of the codex and discourage any deviation.
They don't change because they don't NEED to change. Space marines are one of the most effective fighting forces in the entire (in game) universe, and you want them to get better?

If you're asking for LOGIC or REASON, you're misunderstanding exactly how 40k works.. Anyways, if marines need recon? Scouts. If they aren't available? Tacticals can take care of it. But normally it's all IRON RAIN KILL THEM ALL IN AN HOUR GET BACK TO THE SHIP REPEAT UNTIL EVERYONE IS DEAD

>>12460869
no sense putting them to waste..

plus (knowing 40k), they're proably monofilament weapons too

>> No.12460956

>>12460912The "it" being the Imperial Guard in this case. The problem is that they stick to their 10,000 year old military doctrines that weren't even right then, and still aren't right now, just because they're from 10,000 years ago. That's Imperium dogma right there.

and the tau had an entire sept world kidnapped by dark eldar. I can also pick out examples of retards durr hurr urr.

>> No.12460960

>>12460930
space marine plastic kits used to have combat knifes that you could attach as you please. (i havent played sm since third edition therefore i dont know if they still exist)

But back then space marines only had bolters, so despite having a ccw they wouldnt get an additional attack for 2 cc weapons.

>> No.12460962

>>12460840
All of Farsight's men rebelled with him.

The codex strongly hints Vespid helmets are mind-control helmets, and you gotta be fucking stupid to not get that.

Xenology and the Deathwatch rulebook also mention sterilization. You can't keep discounting everything in it as fluff without any contradicting evidence.

Re-education facilities are Tau fluff that pop up in almost everything they're in.

The Kroot didn't "swear eternal allegiance" to anyone. The Kroot are one of the most mercenary people in the galaxy.

>> No.12460965

>>12460952

dude, do you not realize that after orks (the nids come in piece meal), humans are the most numerous active force in the galaxy?

>> No.12460968

>>12460960
They still do, Actually just finished painting a few for a diorama I'm doing.
But they don't count for anything in the rules.
So no bonus CCW attack.

>> No.12460973

>>12460939
But all the technology that comes out of Mars is based on rediscovered STCs, which are around 20,000 years old. It's not exactly what I'd call progress.

>> No.12460974

>>12460901
> They are allowed to carry bolters, but they're meant for assault, not sniping. They serve their own tactical purpose.
That assault pack can be good for a lot of things beyond simply assaulting. Easily repositioning for one thing, something that would be really handy on bolter wielding marines. This is the entire problem with the codex, it rigidly defines rolls that you're then stuck with regardless of the changing situation.

> Scouts
Which are themselves another massive problem with the codex. Who the hell gives their least experienced soldiers the role of scout/sniper?! That's exactly where you want your most skilled people. Again, pretty much only the Space Wolves get this one right, and only by blatantly ignoring the codex.

> No, all of them except the Ultramarines and their break-aways deviate from the Codex.
Considering the vast majority of chapters are Ultramarine descendants, that's actually a lot of them. And even many non-ultras follow the codex. The vast majority of marines do.

>> No.12460980

I thought space marines had a close combat weapon listed in their profile?

can somebody check their codex

>> No.12460984

>>12460956
yes the difference is that this was the first time the Tau ever encountered the Dark Eldar. The Imperium knows its foes for a very longtime.

First contact between Tau and other hostile races is never pretty, fortunately they dont repeat their mistakes, unlike the imperium which reveres the mistakes as the holy proper way. See: praying the litany of stealth while sneaking.

>> No.12460985
File: 3 KB, 194x159, troll face.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12460985

>>12460968

Unless you're Space Wolves

>> No.12460987

>>12460940
No, I think Taufags are gonna get told. If anyone actually hit the Tau in force, the Tau would be screwed.

>> No.12460988

>Marines don't wear camouflage because it's irrelevant to their mission. They don't do line combat.

Bullshit. Camoflauge is always helpful. Hell, camo can even work for fucking tanks.

>They hit the enemy in the one place they don't expect it,

Brightly colored armor stymies that.

>They strike individual soldiers with such immediacy of force that they don't have time to fight back effectively,

They can see them coming from a long, long distance. One of the best ways to kill marines, in fact, is using weapons that exceed their range, and their bright colors make that easier.

>Lurid colours only help here.

Uh, no. Its exactly as retarded as saying that space marines only communicate on open channels, SO THAT THE ENEMIES OF MANKIND CAN TREMBLE WITH DREAD AT THE APPROACH OF HIS ANGELS OF WRATH.

Christ, I like some aspects of space marines (its hard not to like anything involving space men in full armor) but the color scheme is fucking retarded.

>> No.12460991

>>12460974Which are themselves another massive problem with the codex.

show me an example of where it doesn't work

that's right fag you got told

>> No.12461011

>>12460956
To be fair, that's happened to plenty of human planets.
Hell, the AdMech lost an uncorrupted STC design to the Dark Eldar.
And I don't remember it being too big of a Sept world population-wise anyway.
>>12460984
>See: praying the litany of stealth while sneaking.
As loudly as you possibly can, no less.

>> No.12461016

>>12460962
>All of Farsight's men rebelled with him.
Geez trained military professionals following orders? Whoulda thunk it? Besides he hasn't really "rebelled". Yeah hes not following orders, but its not like he's raiding Tau worlds or anything.

The codex strongly hints Vespid helmets are mind-control helmets, and you gotta be fucking stupid to not get that.

>Xenology and the Deathwatch rulebook also mention sterilization. You can't keep discounting everything in it as fluff without any contradicting evidence.
One case. The US tested sterilization on some Japanese internment prisoners during WWII. Does that mean we sterilize all prisoners?

>Re-education facilities are Tau fluff that pop up in almost everything they're in.

Which could mean anything. Re-education could be anything from brain washing to...wait for it... RE-EDUCATION. Cause you certainly don't have to learn a lot of new laws and rules for government when a new power takes over.

>The Kroot didn't "swear eternal allegiance" to anyone. The Kroot are one of the most mercenary people in the galaxy.

The Kroot did swear allegiance to the greater good. But they don't have a hive mind. Just because the majority of Kroot follow the Tau doesn't mean they all do.

>> No.12461026

>>12460991

How about every damn time the space marines end up getting ambushed? If they had scouts who actually knew what the fuck they were doing they might be able to prevent it.

>> No.12461034

>>12460988

"BROTHER-CAPTAIN CYRUS, WE HAVE SUCESSFULLY MADE OUR DROP POD LANDING INTO THIS HOUSE, WHERE THE ENEMY HEAVY WEAPON TEAM WAS. YES THEY ARE SQUISHED. NOW UNDER FIRE FROM OTHER POSITIONS, PROCEEDING TO DON CAMOFLAUGE..."

Yeah, not gonna work.

>> No.12461035

>>12460974
Assault marines don't use boltguns because they're noob just out of scout training and require close-combat experience.

And Death Company can take boltguns and jump packs and relentless to boot

>> No.12461036

>>12460988

What the hell is wrong with you? You've been refusing to talk about anything to do with marines except open gunline combat which is exactly what they don't do in fluff.

Isn't it fucking amazing that something becomes retarded when you deliberately put it in a retarded situation that doesn't apply.

>> No.12461038

>Xenology and the Deathwatch rulebook also mention sterilization. You can't keep discounting everything in it as fluff without any contradicting evidence.

The human helper troops on the GW website mention they are descendents of IG prisoners of war who joined the Greater Good.

>> No.12461040
File: 86 KB, 300x186, m1080003_Tau_GS_Page_2_I2sm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12461040

here's some BRIGHT BLUE Tau standing on dull brown dirt

and on DURR HURR HURR THEIR SUPER VITAL LEADER IS STANDING AROUND LIKE A DIPSHIT WAVING HIS WAND WITH A BUNCH OF DUDES WITH GUNS

LAWL TAU SOO STOOOOPID OMG

>> No.12461047

>>12461016
Whoops forgot to address the vespids.

>The codex strongly hints Vespid helmets are mind-control helmets, and you gotta be fucking stupid to not get that.

The codex says that the helmets use pheromones similar to that of another species, also insectoid, across the galaxy. But remember, most insect USE PHEROMONES TO COMMUNICATE. There is NOTHING strange about their helmets using pheromones in the slightest, when its probably their fastest form of communication.

>> No.12461048

>>12460988
>Bullshit. Camoflauge is always helpful. Hell, camo can even work for fucking tanks.

This is the incorrect usage of Space Marines. Space Marines are as much agents of Fear and Terror as they are a surgeons knife on the battlefield.

Space Marines are what the enemies of the Imperium know "fear" to look like. The striking image of the Space Marines in their full battle colors coming to exact the righteous anger of their liege lord is a site to behold.

>Brightly colored armor stymies that.

Few enemies expect such a brazen, open attack at their heart. They see those that do as either very foolish, or very frightening.

>They can see them coming from a long, long distance. One of the best ways to kill marines, in fact, is using weapons that exceed their range, and their bright colors make that easier.

Implying they didn't just drop pod right on top of your ass, or snuck around behind cover. Space Marines can be stealthy when they want to be. But when it's time to engage, they WANT you to see their colors coming at you.

>> No.12461052

>>12460974
A jump pack would be terrible for repositioning. It's not exactly hard to spot a flying plume of flame going up a hundred feet in the air, and it would be easy to figure out where it came down from. Jump packs are only good for quickly closing with the enemy and building momentum while you do so, or dropping down from a high-altitude from a Thunderhawk.

I don't see how making the least experienced members of the chapter recon-specialists is a problem, especially when the Scout sergeant is usually a very experience Space Marine. Even the Ultramarines only send veterans to command the Scouts.

The vast majority of chapters are not descended from the Ultramarines. Just as many are descended from the other chapters that supported the second-foundings. The hell did you get your fluff?

>>12460988
Outranging Space Marines has never done much good, and I dare you to find me an instance where it has. Bright colours have made little difference to the obvious success of Space Marines, and when stealth is important for missions, they forgo chapter pride.

Bright colours don't seem to make any difference when it comes to Space Marines, because they kill all the same. Besides, it's pretty hard to see a drop pod or Thunderhawk coming.

>> No.12461053

>>12460991
Every time a scout has missed because he rolled a 3. That's when.

>> No.12461058
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12461058

the Tau are a very advanced and wage warfare in a logical manner, unlike stupid baka Imperium

>> No.12461060

>>12461016
>One case. The US tested sterilization on some Japanese internment prisoners during WWII. Does that mean we sterilize all prisoners?

No, but to be fair, we've done it more than just that one time and against more people than just japs.

I also recall we gave STDs to prisoners or the mentally ill with syringes or something. Shit's not good.

>> No.12461064

>>12461058ONLY THE HARDEST ABS FOR AUN'VA

I love those guys

>> No.12461065

>>12460962
>All of Farsight's men rebelled with him.
yes because he is the leader.
What else are they going to do?

>The codex strongly hints Vespid helmets are mind-control helmets, and you gotta be fucking stupid to not get that.
>hints
that meants its your fucking interpretation.
It says nothing about mindcontroll, its just what you want to believe

>Xenology and the Deathwatch rulebook also mention sterilization. You can't keep discounting everything in it as fluff without any contradicting evidence.
>xenology
lol
>deathwatch
havent read it yet, cant comment

>Re-education facilities are Tau fluff that pop up in almost everything they're in.
Re education is nothing bad. Learning the ways of the greater good is something positive.
Tau dont reeducate by force but rather by reason and example.

>The Kroot didn't "swear eternal allegiance" to anyone. The Kroot are one of the most mercenary people in the galaxy.
haha oh wow. Learn some fucking fluff, seriously.
anghor prok swore eternal loyality to the Tau Empire on the kroots most holiest ground.
Anghor prok is the highest kroot shaper btw.

>> No.12461066

>>12461038
And yet both the sources I mentioned say they use them on populations.

>> No.12461069

>>12461036
The SM codex actually flat-out states that Marines generally suck in any prolonged war when not being a support element for the Guard.
Of course, the chapter master in that entry wanted to just exterminatus the planet because of that, even though it wasn't turning into a daemonworld or even falling to chaotic/xenos corruption, so that kind of killed the story for me.

>> No.12461070

>>12461058
Eldar are more weeaboo than the Tau
Tau are more Chinese/Korean in origin.

I'll give you a 1/10 cause its worked in the past.

>> No.12461074

>>12461036

Yes, I'm clearly arguing in favor of camo because camo is only useful in open gunline combat... derp.

>> No.12461081

>>12461066
yeah well too bad your sources are shit.

Xenology is universally considered to be wrong on pretty much everything and deathwatch is a third party product.
I trust the official GW site more.

>> No.12461085

>>12461060
Point is though that for the most part those are isolated incidents, not the normal modus operandi.

>> No.12461089

>>12460988
>Bullshit. Camoflauge is always helpful. Hell, camo can even work for fucking tanks.
And they'll use it if they need to. Normally they don't though (heyo, drop from orbit, kill everyone, return to orbit, repeat)

>One of the best ways to kill marines, in fact, is using weapons that exceed their range, and their bright colors make that easier.
right, except codex tactics are not "durr, walk a mile in open ground into enemy emplacements". Space marine attacks are ALWAYS rapid assaults from thunderhawks/drop pods. They rely on the 'first strike' to crumble potential resistance. Rhinos/other vehicles are air dropped to keep up momentum from the first wave

It seems like you really don't understand how they work..

despite what you may think, space marines are the most tactically advanced force of mankind. Physically stronger, Mentally superior, equipped for just about anything.. I mean, they're shock troops. That's what they do.

They'll use camouflage/subtlety if they need to.. but they normally don't. Hell, most enemies in 40k simply don't allow you to act like that

if you want small, specialized, stealthy space marines.. well.. Deathwatch fit the bill perfectly. Even then, Codex marines are perfectly capable of it too

>> No.12461090

The Orks are a very advanced and wage warfare in a logical manner, unlike da stupid 'umie gitz

>> No.12461097

>>12461070

Tau are Japanese styled

Eldar have the Inscrutible schemer archetype of Chinaman yellow peril villains

get that shit right

>> No.12461102

>>12461074
Main reason that marines don't wear camo: Imagine how shit an army of the Emporer's finest would look in muddy browns and greens

>> No.12461104

>>12461090

Orks are the greatest soldiers in the galaxy

they have won every war they've been in

and as we know, they have never, ever lost.

>> No.12461110

>>12461081

Doesn't say they do =/= says they don't.

Simple concept. He's saying that even though these aren't big pieces of information, they are the only information as to yea or nay on the subject. A failure to affirm is not a denial.

>> No.12461111

>>12461104
Dat's right, dey jus' come back fer anuvver go

>> No.12461114

>>12461058


what the hell is that

>> No.12461116

>>12461065
Well gee, the Greater Good can't be all that great if a a massive Tau army is willing to follow Farsight into treason. Either that, or Farsight being a benevolent dictator is a whole lot better than the Greater Good. That throws the idea of the Great Good so great out the window.

Vespid are mind controlled. You're a fanboy trying to deny the obvious hints.

They don't re-educate through reason all nice and happy, you fucking idiot. They brainwash people.

The Kroot don't seem to give a shit about following the Tau, since when Imperials make a better offer, they happily turn their guns against the Tau. Kroot are mercenaries. They don't care about loyalty. They care about each other, and gain more than anything. Also, the Tau Codex is from the Tau perspective, is it not? I wonder how they would interpret it.

>> No.12461117

>>12461097
Tau are anime-styled, but I'd say the Eldar are more Japanese, culturally.

>> No.12461118

>right, except codex tactics are not "durr, walk a mile in open ground into enemy emplacements". Space marine attacks are ALWAYS rapid assaults from thunderhawks/drop pods.

No shit. Thunderhawks are a good means of extraction, but its not like you can get back into a drop pod that's already landed. And if you drop in to take out an enemy's leadership, occasionally the enemy's leadership will not be miles and miles away from reinforcements.

Even if you get into an enemy's base, getting back out is another matter.

>> No.12461126

>>12461102Main reason that marines don't wear camo:

because only alpha legion does camo

thus a marine in camo is revealing he is alpha legion traitor

but alpha legion camo is other marine colors

it is rumored careful inspection of backpack exaust may hint at marine's loyalty

>> No.12461138

>>12461081
>Hurrr, I refuse to accept your sources because I don't like them, but have no contradicting sources so I win!

>> No.12461140

>>12461097
>Tau are Japanese styled


This is also why GW's attempt at making Warhammer 40k take off in Japan failed so damn bad. They marketed the ever living hell out of Tau, "Oh them Japs, they'll love that we ripped off Patlabor and Robotech and gave this nip-rip army with shittier plastic gundamu kits than you can get at a 7/11, and all the units have squinty eyes!"

And then almost every GW in Japan was shut down a year and a half later.

Fucking idiots. If they wanted to get into the Japanese market, they have to market something "new" to Japan. Like Space Marines, or Chaos, or Orks, ect. Something "cool" and foreign. Because despite Japanes xenophobia, they LOVE western culture themed stuff.

Case in point, Warhammer Fantasy Battles is the only thing that makes money over in Japan.

>> No.12461145

>>12461117

the cultures are close enough that you could argue either way depending on what you prefer

I split it as

Tau= Threat of modern corporate efficiency asians
Eldar= threat of ancient inscrutable scheming asians

>> No.12461146
File: 31 KB, 416x300, popemobile-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12461146

>>12461114

It's the Space Pope.

>> No.12461151

>Well gee, the Greater Good can't be all that great if a a massive Tau army is willing to follow Farsight into treason.

I'm pretty sure Farsight's bunch still believe in the Greater Good.

>> No.12461154

>>12461116
>The Kroot don't seem to give a shit about following the Tau, since when Imperials make a better offer, they happily turn their guns against the Tau. Kroot are mercenaries. They don't care about loyalty. They care about each other, and gain more than anything. Also, the Tau Codex is from the Tau perspective, is it not? I wonder how they would interpret it.
The Kroot owe their entire goddamn race to the Tau. They WOULD NOT BE AROUND without them.
I've also never had a source of a Kroot band up and turing around to fight tau because the imperial they were eating made a "better deal," so you'll need to back that up.

>> No.12461158

>>12461117
Tau are a lot more Chinese culturally than they are Japanese, just to add on to what you said.

>> No.12461162

>>12461146It's the Space Pope.


if the tau have the space pope....


my god, are they Space Catholics?
Is that what the Greater Good is?

Is that what they do? Missionary Work on aliens? Is their Empire one of Faith!?

>> No.12461165

>>12461116
>Well gee, the Greater Good can't be all that great if a a massive Tau army is willing to follow Farsight into treason. Either that, or Farsight being a benevolent dictator is a whole lot better than the Greater Good. That throws the idea of the Great Good so great out the window.
Or you know considering them being NOT LEADERS. they dont know that their commander is defying orders

>Vespid are mind controlled. You're a fanboy trying to deny the obvious hints.
>Vespid are not mind controlled. You're a fanboy trying to deny the obvious hints.
see how that works?


>They don't re-educate through reason all nice and happy, you fucking idiot. They brainwash people.
And your source is where?

>The Kroot don't seem to give a shit about following the Tau, since when Imperials make a better offer, they happily turn their guns against the Tau. Kroot are mercenaries. They don't care about loyalty. They care about each other, and gain more than anything.
learn your fucking fluff. you are simply wrong. read "index xenos: kroot" for starters.

>Also, the Tau Codex is from the Tau perspective, is it not? I wonder how they would interpret it.
The quotes, yes.
The majority of stuff is written by an distant omniscient narrator though since it also potrays the imperial viewpoint during first contact etc.

>> No.12461169

>>12461118
>Even if you get into an enemy's base, getting back out is another matter.

in which case they rely on superhuman abilities and superior weapons/armor before being extracted

I'm not sure how camouflage would help them in this scenario. They WANT the enemy to know that the space marines came to fuck their shit up

>> No.12461172

>>12461154

the Tau saved one group of kroot. Kroot are exclusively Tau auxillaries in theory

but in practice many still illegally work for other empires

>> No.12461173

>>12461138
> but have no contradicting sources so I win!

Have you somehow missed the part about the OFFICIAL GAMES WORKSHOP WEBSITE?

>> No.12461182

>>12461165see how that works?


oh my god, how stupid are you?

>> No.12461183

>>12461118

Exactly. Hence hitting them so hard that by the time the base is destroyed you still have enough time to just leave, or move onto the next target, before the tank company that was an hour away can get back. As the tank company gets there, you're hitting the next base a half-hour away. The commander hears the base go silent and figures out what's going on, and rallies a regiment in APCs who were about to leave and turns them around, but by the time he does that and they get there, they've already hit the convoy on the road the base guards and take ntheir trucks.

The next base gets hit by the convoy hiding the marines, and goes dark. This time the commander realises that if a base goes dar khe has to assume it's the Marines outright or miss them, and so instantly sends in Valkyries from the AFB a half-hour's flight away. The Marines leave the base and dig in just behind it, leaving a handful of guys in the base. The Valkyries hit the base and the guys, and while they do, the Marines dug in hit the Valkyries simultaneously from the flanks with AA fire, killing enough that the flight leader has to pull out ro reconsider. The Commander hears this, and sends everythign at the base, by which time the Thunderhawk loitering in high overhead has flown in, forced the surviving Valks to withdraw, and picked the Marines up. As the tank regiment rolls into sight of the base, they see the Thunderhawk entering orbit, ready to hit another target.

>> No.12461187

>>12461154
Well, I would say Xenology, but Tau fanboys hate that book without providing any real evidence as to why it's non-canon.

>>12461151
They do not, otherwise they wouldn't have selfishly split away from the rest of the Tau Empire.

>> No.12461189

What Space Marines and Tau both share in common is their superhuman plot armour.

>> No.12461195

>>12461173
If it's a website you should be able to provide links to your sources then. Tell me what you're refuting, and post your proof.

>> No.12461199

>>12461116
> Well gee, the Greater Good can't be all that great if a a massive Tau army is willing to follow Farsight into treason.
His army. The army that he commanded the loyalty of over the course of many long, brutal campaigns. They probably would have followed him into hell. The fact that they followed him into exile says nothing about the Greater Good, only the depths of their loyalty to Farsight.

> Vespid are mind controlled. You're a fanboy trying to deny the obvious hints.
Cite where it specifically says they're mind controlled. Until then it's merely your own personal speculation that you're trying to pass off as fact.

> They don't re-educate through reason all nice and happy, you fucking idiot. They brainwash people.
And examples of their re-education camps, such as those in DoW and Deathwatch, are specifically in areas where the human population is very, very uncooperative. Areas where the Imperium would just burn the entire world if they were in the same position.

> The Kroot don't seem to give a shit about following the Tau, since when Imperials make a better offer, they happily turn their guns against the Tau. Kroot are mercenaries.
Kroot are mercenaries, they work for the people who pay them, but they also contract with the Tau as part of the debt that they owe the Tau for their assistance against the orks. There are Kroot mercenaries who remain independent, but the single largest known block of Kroot work for the Tau.

>> No.12461203 [DELETED] 

>>12461158
>Tau are a lot more Chinese culturally than they are Japanese, just to add on to what you said.

But to add onto that further, Tau Society is based off the Caste system of India.

So Culturally Chinese (or Stalinista's) and Socially Indian (Caste society). It's like have the worst of both worlds....

>> No.12461206

>>12461187
> Well, I would say Xenology, but Tau fanboys hate that book without providing any real evidence as to why it's non-canon.

It contradicts the codex, which is what GW has time and again said are the closest things to actual canon that they've got.

>> No.12461207

>>12461172
That "one group of kroot" was the only group of kroot at the time.
The orks were hunting them to extinction, and all that was left was the homeworld.
And working for other races != turning around and killing their Tau allies in the middle of a war because the Imperials paid them off.

>> No.12461214

>>12461158
>Tau are a lot more Chinese culturally than they are Japanese, just to add on to what you said.

But to add onto that further, Tau Society is based off the Caste system of India.

So Culturally Chinese (or Stalinista's) and Socially Indian (Caste society).

It's like having the worst of both worlds...

>> No.12461218

>I'm not sure how camouflage would help them in this scenario. They WANT the enemy to know that the space marines came to fuck their shit up

Giving the enemy information pertaining to where you are is always going to be a bad idea, especially since the whole idea at least seems to be "strike fast and leave," not "strike fast, get bogged down into a conventional battle where you will get the shit blown out of you from artillery."

>> No.12461225

Tau are corporate space japs

>> No.12461235

>>12461214
Tau caste system is not anything like that of the Hindus, because Hindu castes are mainly about hierarchy, whereas there's no lowly peon caste.

On the other hand, the Imperium does have an inflexible caste system... people's occupations are chosen for them before they are born. And if you want to get into the Stalin thing, see: Commissars. Derp.

>> No.12461237

I'm pretty sure Kroot won't just "turn around" in the middle of a god damn battle and shoot their allies of five minutes ago because the enemy commander voxxed them a new "better deal".

Be that as it may, a good majority of Kroot are still independent Mercenaries. This is reflected in the tabletop by almost any army being able to field them as merc units.

>> No.12461246
File: 7 KB, 300x375, andy-hoare.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
12461246

>Vespid Stingwings are the latest creatures to join the cause of the Tau. This new alien breed will feature in the forthcoming Codex: Tau Empire.

>“Vespid is the planet they’re from,” explains Andy Hoare, author of the coming book, “and Stingwing is their troop type. They are a Fast Attack choice in the army.”

>Stingwings are an auxiliary race of the Tau, in much the same way as Kroot but with important differences.

>“Kroot are essentially mercenaries,” says Andy, “whereas the relationship the Vespid have with the Tau is more of an ideological investment.” So, unlike the Kroot who fight because they’re paid, the Vespid fight for the Greater Good.

>The Vespid are alien, even to the Tau, and communication between the two races is only affected by means of technology.

>“The Tau use a communion helm to communicate with certain Vespid leaders,” Andy tells us. In game terms, this artefact boosts the Leadership of the wearer, but without it the Vespid become disorientated and are likely to flee from battle.

>Tau technology extends to other aspects of the Vespid too, “We wanted them to look like they’re integrated in the Tau empire; they’ve got weapons that are deliberately a mix of Tau tech and something else,” Andy explains, adding, “and they wear Tau manufactured armour as well.”

>> No.12461260

>>12461218
think of it this way;

they'll go along in the most effective way possible, militarily

but they won't try to hide the fact that they are, in fact, space marines

it's not like they sit around after clearing a target. It would (probably) go like this;

>preliminary; Recon work by Scout teams
>first wave; Drop pod assault
>second wave; Thunderhawk borne troops
>second-third wave; vehicle transports
>fourth stage; Armored assault at secondary objective
>fifth stage; Extraction

Because of their ridiculous abilities, space marines are (surprsingly) extremely flexible. If they get bogged down, they can normally last long enough for support to reach them

which is why they're so good when working in tandem with guard regiments

>> No.12461264

>>12461237I'm pretty sure Kroot won't just "turn around" in the middle of a god damn battle and shoot their allies of five minutes ago because the enemy commander voxxed them a new "better deal".

Eldar mercs do that though

>> No.12461274

>On the other hand, the Imperium does have an inflexible caste system... people's occupations are chosen for them before they are born

This is completely untrue. It is up to each Imperial citizen how much, or how little he will become in his service to the Emperor. This is why some become grox farmers, and others become rogue traders with legions of ships and trade routs of their own.

The Tau have the inflexible caste system. Born fire caste? Nigger best be marrying another fire caste and suffer execution should he look sideways at a water caste.

>> No.12461280

>>12461274The Tau have the inflexible caste system. Born fire caste? Nigger best be marrying another fire caste and suffer execution should he look sideways at a water caste.


Brokeback Septworld

>> No.12461282

>>12461237
Yes, and we know how canon TT games are.
Hell, remember that time Dante and the Sanguinor had to fight that other Dante and the Sanguinor?
Yes, Kroot work for other races outside of conflicts involving the Tau (because they have actual warp drives, they can fight anywhere they please).
They also send a large number of troops as auxiliary forces to support the empire they are a part of.
You really think the Tau would put up with them after the Nth time their kroot allies were bought off in a fight?

>> No.12461283

>>12460987

You would be wrong.

The Iron Hammer campaign referred there begins because of a wilfull underestimation of Tau strength by the Imperium, and will end in an Imperial defeat.

>> No.12461289

>>12461218

Being able to see the guy who just shot everyone else in the room in the face slightly easier is not going to make the tank company at the nearest support base mobilise any faster. The fact that everyone on the comlinks is screaming OH MY FUCK IT'S THE FLESH TEARERS because they are visible as they do so will help spread confusion and panic, making sending a good response much harder for a commander to do.

The Space MArien combat doctrine is to hit so hard and fast that they create both a huge confusion and a huge mismatch of power in their favour. They continue to fight as viciously as possible and with as much momentu7m as is safe so as to lengthen the confusion as long as possible. Only once the confusion cools down can a commander begin to redress the power imbalance. Then, as the commander is redressing the power imbalance by sendign superior forces out ther,e the Marines leave.

Think of it this way. Take a US town that loves guns so everyone has them. I gear up in IIIa armour and with a decent rifle, kick in a door, and kill everyone inside. The individual people there are no match for me. I change house, and repeat. The police could easily outnumber me and kick my arse, but first the peopel here have to stop panicking long enough to give the police useful information and then, the police have to get here. When I know that police response is coming, I stop killing and leave. The principle is similar, except scaled up in 40K.

>> No.12461290

>>12461282

don't be a cunt, that dude wasn't even arguing with you

>> No.12461292

>>12461274
>This is completely untrue. It is up to each Imperial citizen how much, or how little he will become in his service to the Emperor. This is why some become grox farmers, and others become rogue traders with legions of ships and trade routs of their own.

while this is true

>The Tau have the inflexible caste system. Born fire caste? Nigger best be marrying another fire caste and suffer execution should he look sideways at a water caste.

this is utterly wrong.

1.) Tau dont execute, especially not other tau
2.) Tau do have interbreeding, usually decided by an Etherial.
3.) Tau dont have marriage, thats a christian concept

>> No.12461295

>>12461260
You still haven't given a reason why camouflage is unnecessary. It's extremely helpful in virtually all situations. Anything that helps break up your profile, make you very slightly harder to make out at a distance, and just generally makes you the tiniest bit more indistinct, will help. It's not much in most cases, but considering how cheap it is in terms of cost effectiveness it is always worth it. And when your soldiers are as valuable as a space marine, one would think that you would be piling on every advantage you can.

>> No.12461307

hmmm, I used to think marinefags were the worst lot of 40k

this 200+post thread has taught me the smell of Taufaggotry

>> No.12461317

>>12461295

Why does batman wear a cape? what if it gets caught on a door? Maybe Ironman should wear camo instead of red and gold...

It's rule of cool

(tau's role of cool is to be tacticool btw)

>> No.12461321
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12461321

>>12461292

>3.) Tau dont have marriage, thats a christian concept

Marriage predates christianity by thousands of years.

>> No.12461322

>>12461295

The God-Emperors mighty Angels of Death simply enjoy kicking the shit out of heretics, xenos and mutants while proclaiming their Imperial colours and heraldry for all to see.

Is that too hard to understand? We've already established that when they see a particular need to adopt camoflauge they will.

>> No.12461328

>Yes, and we know how canon TT games are.

ehh wut?

The tau codex even lists Kroot as a Mercenary choice that any other army can field.

Kroot are mercs. They know full well that they could end up on opposite sides of a battle. Be that as it may, they do not look down upon their kin for this, for this is what Kroot live and die by.

Kroot work for anyone. The largest body may be under Tau control, but the Kroot mercs are for the most part independent. The Tau have probably already accepted this.

>> No.12461331

>>12461274
> This is completely untrue. It is up to each Imperial citizen how much, or how little he will become in his service to the Emperor. This is why some become grox farmers, and others become rogue traders with legions of ships and trade routs of their own.

No, it isn't. Social mobility in the Imperium is atrocious. Nobles are born into high status, hive scum into low, rogue traders into their dynasties, and grox farmers often times on worlds that don't have steam power, let alone a vast fleet of ships to command if only he had the will to serve the Emperor.

>> No.12461333

>>12461292

>3.) Tau dont have marriage, thats a christian concept

2/10

>> No.12461335
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12461335

>>12461307
I actually was fond of the Tau until I met their fanbase. Fucking hell, man.

>> No.12461337

>>12461290
Yeah, I realize that now, misread the whole damn post. My apologizes.
>>12461292
Marriage is a social invention, not a 'christian' one. Though I don't see how that's relevant.

>> No.12461341
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12461341

>>12461292
>Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the castes is forbidden by the Ethereals.
Other points probably stand though.

>> No.12461346

>>12461307

Most of the Tau guys are fine. There was actually pretty good talks for a while, even. It's just the one guy who takes any claim that the Tau aren't actually the best race ever in 40K as a personal attack that's ruining it for everyone.

At least the 'Marines should have camo' guy is actually trying to present his point convincingly and actually reading the counterpoints.

>> No.12461348

>It is up to each Imperial citizen how much, or how little he will become in his service to the Emperor.

Read the rulebook's description of life in the Imperium.

Vast majority of the Imperial citizens will be born into lives less meaningful than those of insects, and will die like insects as well. Tau may have upward mobility inside of their own caste, but it is still vastly preferable to the minimal chance that an Inquisitor takes note of a poor citizen, and he survives his tenure as an acolyte to become an Inquisitor.

Imperial citizens in all likelihood have a better chance to become Daemon Princes than achieve a position of real power in the Imperium.

>> No.12461349

>>12461317
And the point is that despite being cool, it's still rather stupid when you stop to think about it, so all the people who claim that the Imperium tactics are the way they are because they're supposedly good tactics are missing the entire point of the setting. The Imperium is actually extremely dense.

>> No.12461350
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12461350

>>12461292
>>12461274
it's a widely know thing that the Fire Caste and the Water Caste often interbreed and make the Steam Caste, who are well known for their virtual training simulators

>> No.12461358

>>12461331
I love the way everyone in this thread seems to think TEH IMPERIUM is this great big monolithic block instead of a million different cultures held together by a religion that was imposed on most of them at gunpoint over 9000 years ago.

>> No.12461361

>>12461295
but you're also underestimating the very basis of marines

a space marine who is not proud of himself, his chapter, and his heritage is not a space marine. They've been so indoctrinated into this mindset that they won't use camouflage unless absolutely necessary. Do they need camouflage for their normal operations? No, not especially. In a protracted ground campaign? (barring extremes) you bet they'll put on their stripes and spots. In the same vein, camouflaging rhinos and other vehicles isn't exactly uncommon, despite the fact that you never really see it in "official" paintschemes anymore.

at the same time, you're trying to apply logic to 40k. This.. doesn't really work. There's little droplets of logic present in 40k, but as a whole the entire setting is just an exercise in absurdity

Anyways, the imperial armor books would be right up your ally. Check out IA volume 2 for a reasonable (and fairly comprehensive) look at space marine tactics. Most of the books have insights in them as well (Badab war book will be especially good, I think)

>> No.12461362

>>12461341
Oh, except the Christian thing. Yeah.

>> No.12461366

>>12461328
That would make for incredibly awkward dinner parties, since all kroot are from the survivors the Tau saved.
Especially since they aren't supposed to be doing the galactic merc thing, and can fight where the tau cannot, I'd hope they'd keep it under wraps.

>> No.12461377

>When I know that police response is coming, I stop killing and leave

RELYING on no one ever trying to shoot you is a deeply retarded assumption, and contradicts the reasons space marines use armor in the first place.

And in that situation painting your body armor and guns bright yellow is going to be less wise than wearing some thin normal clothes over them (depending on the local temperature, naturally) and having something to conceal your rifle in.

Marines wear armor because they plan to be shot at, period. Camouflage makes it so that enemies will take longer to begin shooting at you, even if its only a second.

>> No.12461382

>>12461328
nope.

Kroot dont fight against Tau (in the fluff). It would be a disgrace to their ancestors. And Kroot have a huge hard on for their ancestors. Read Index Xenos: Kroot for more details.

For more Info on Kroot Mercs read the Kroot Merc Army list article in the WD.
Kroot fight for other armies, yes. But not because of anything ideological or because they love the goods so much, its because of necessity.

They have to in order to acquire new genetic material. Otherwise they would stagnate. If they would only fight for the Tau they would only fight agains the same enemies, thats unacceptable.
So the Shapers send out a very few Kroot across the stars with the goal to collect genetic material and then return to Pech. The Etherials know about it and tolerate it because they know the Kroot need it.

>> No.12461399

>>12461348
>Vast majority of American citizens will be born into lives less meaningful than those of insects, and will die like insects as well.

This could be applied to anyone who doesn't "apply themselves". Most imperial citizens who just give up and become work drones gave up on their dreams long ago. It might have be foolish and naive to dream, but that is the gift of humankind.

The tau have no such luxuries as dreams.

>> No.12461403

>>12461348

Not really. There are actually many, many more ways to 'succeed' in the Imperium than in the Tau empire. The difference is there are so many more people fighting for each possible chance at a route to success in the Imperium that many more of them will inevitably fail.

I mean, anyone can become successful in a number of ways, it's just hard. If you join the IG, which literally anyone can do on most worlds, and survive your full 20 year stint, you will almost certainly have achieved the rank of at least Major or higher by then, which entitles you to a serious patch of land on a colonial world, or a solid job in another branch of the Imperium. Both are good positions to hold, and both give you serious leverage to improve your position further and start a dynasty for your descendants. It's just that you probably won't be the one in a few thousand who survives the full twenty years. Every single person in a position of power in the Imperium started off somewhere, and every dynasty equally started as a desperate man scrabbling through rubble to feed himself. You just have to be that one man in a million who makes it.

>> No.12461406

>>12461361
And that's the point. They're indoctrinated into doing something that is illogical. They're bound by dogma and tradition. Thank you. That was the entire point of this line of discussion.

Of course, there are several other people in this thread who still believe that Imperium tactics are what they are because they actually make sense.

>> No.12461430

>That would make for incredibly awkward dinner parties, since all kroot are from the survivors the Tau saved.

There's tons of independent tribes of Kroot. They probably know that Tau debt comes first, but they sell their swords whenever possible.

>Especially since they aren't supposed to be doing the galactic merc thing, and can fight where the tau cannot, I'd hope they'd keep it under wraps.

The Tau know of their cousins merc ways, and flesh ingestion. They look the other way for the most part since the kroot are very useful.

>> No.12461433
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12461433

>>12461382
>The Etherials know about it and tolerate it because they know the Kroot need it.

That doesn't seem to be the case according to the codex (which, for the record, most definitely does NOT provide an option for Kroot to be taken as part of another army):

>Pech is entirely integrated into the Tau empire, but not all Kroot fight for the Tau – it is not unknown for mercenary forces to be found fighting alongside Eldar, Human renegades, the dread legions of Chaos and even Orks. The Kroot have no deeply held prejudices against any particular alien races and give little or no thought to who they fight, only that they are paid. This practice is entirely at odds with the Greater Good, and so the Kroot keep knowledge of it from the Tau, itinerant Mercenary Kindreds avoiding contact with Tau forces.

>> No.12461441

>>12461399
140 hour work weeks don't leave you with enough free time to do anything, dude.

>> No.12461442

>>12461403
I don't know, I've always got the vibe that upward mobility, in the 41st millennium anyway, is pretty stagnant from world to world.
At least, for the majority. I do get what you are saying though, and so people do escape it by joining the Imperial military or one of the Adeptus.

>> No.12461443

>>12461406
>They're bound by dogma and tradition.
to a degree though. And not so much as most people think

What I've been trying to say (I think there's one or two others also responding to you) is that, although they DO have illogical practices/habits, they're not 'stuck in one place' like.. say.. most of the guard, since they're so damn flexible to begin with

>> No.12461447

>>12461377

That was an example for immediacy of force. Nobody I fight stands a chance against me, and I have enough time to leave before the people who do can find out what's going on and get here.

As for the camouflage point, you really need to understand how shock value works in combat. It's actually extremely effective, and the Space Marines are so dependant on it that it is the only thing validating their existence. Capitalising on that value with garish colours is only good sense. Sure, if he WAS in a bush and standing still the second it took to see one woudl be good for them, but they don't do standing in a bush not moving. They do running int oyour face with guns going off everywhere and SO MUCH SHIT IS HAPPENING OH MY FUCK that your brain can't meaningfully process the correct response to calm, aim, and shoot and put it into practise before the Space Marine can kill you.

There was a book that explained this concept fantastically in the example of the firts group to go through Delta Force training that was floating around /k/. Someone there ought to be able to get you a link. It's very interesting stuff.

>> No.12461451

>>12461403
Which does nothing to change the point. The idea that "where you end up in the Imperium depends entirely on how much effort you put in" is ridiculous. There is an immense amount of luck involved, at every step of the way. Saying that the Imperium has perfect social mobility if you just put enough effort in
as was said here >>12461274
is utterly ridiculous.

>> No.12461452

>>12461399

40k universe is not a fair place, and those with ambition and skill are ground to pulp by their surroundings as often as the dullest drones. No, you can't have that apple pie.

>> No.12461489

>As for the camouflage point, you really need to understand how shock value works in combat.

I've been in the military. Have you? Bolter fire is as scary as it needs to be. The enemy you cannot see will ALWAYS be more frightening than the enemy you can see.

>It's actually extremely effective, and the Space Marines are so dependant on it that it is the only thing validating their existence.

Yes, because space marines are known for always losing whenever they run into necrons, tyranids, and daemons.

>> No.12461505

>>12461447
> As for the camouflage point, you really need to understand how shock value works in combat.

So you're saying that shock is more effective than camouflage? That's great, so when the US army or marines or what have you storm a building they should start wearing bright reds and carrying heraldry and shout battle cries and... oh wait. No, that would be incredibly stupid. Shock has limits, and when you reach those limits it won't become obvious until the enemy is already shooting back at you, which is the point at which some camouflage, even a relatively simple scheme, can help.

>> No.12461506

>>12461451

I think he meant how much each citizen WANTS to be. They can choose to stay where they are, or take a gamble on improving their station.

It's hard to compare Imperial social mobility to Tau. The latter says 'this is the only way you can go anywhere higher. You may only follow this path. No other path exists. To get to the next stage, you must meet these exact requirements'. The latter says 'well, you could try each of these thousand different things,and for each one if you're the one in ten thousand who makes it, hey presto.' The Tau are hyperstrict in their egalitarianism. You can only move in one exact direction in one exact way, but if you are good enough to move that way you very likely can. The Imperium offers vastly greater freedom of choice at the price of havign a strong element of luck on top of skill requirements for each one.

>> No.12461514

Imperial society keeps the small guy down, but he is able to rise to the top through luck, determination, and drive.

Tau society keeps everyone in their place, and they stay there till they are dead. No matter how lucky they are, or how determined, or how driven...a Fire Warrior will always be a fire warrior, and nothing more.

Imperial society crushes the hopes of many.

But in Tau society, there is no such thing as hope.

>> No.12461529

>>12461443

They put their least experienced soldiers in the role of scout/sniper. Because a 10,000 year old book tells them to. If that's not being mired in dogma, I don't know what is.

>> No.12461548

>>12461506
No, he outright says "will become." As if it's a guarantee. Which is absurd.

>> No.12461566

>>12461548

I assure you we meant no such thing. Getting to the top of society in real life is almost the same as getting to the top in Imperial society. It might happen overnight, or it might never happen. That's just the way it is.

>> No.12461567
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12461567

>>12461514
>Fire – The Fire caste are the warriors of the Tau. It is the duty of these warriors to protect the other castes. Centuries of selective breeding has led to the Fire caste being the biggest and strongest of the Tau. The Fire warriors are strongly motivated by a strict code of honour in battle, but they are not mindless thugs. They see ranged combat as preferable to the somewhat brutal affair of close combat. They are not naturally equipped for such fights, preferring to use advanced weaponry rather than brute force to win battles. A warrior starts life as a young line trooper, a Shas’la, and after surviving four years ‘on the line’ they must take their first Trial by Fire. If they survive this ordeal then they are fit to don the full battlesuit. If they survive a further four years, they take the second Trial and successful participants advance yet further. A veteran who manages to survive yet another four years becomes eligible to take part in a third Trial if he wishes and, if he is still alive by the end, will become a Commander, or Shas’el. Commanders who survive four years are allowed to retire from active service, join the council of advisors and play a greater part in Tau politics. Other than death, this is the only way to leave the Tau military.

>> No.12461572

>>12461489

Yes, I have. Not really relevant, given that not one unit of any modern military works like the Space Marines. At no point in the attacks we are discussing will they be in a position where camouflage will aid them in a nontrivial way. They don't do shooting at range from cover with careful fire and movement. They do HOLY SHIT SHIT'S EVERYWHERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM. Being readily identifiable as Space Marines, and this specific chapter of Space Marines who have these stories about how they kicked the shit out of everyone, may sometimes help.

The soldier you can't see is scary, but the Space Marines can't not be seen. An eight foot superhuman will not be helped at all by camouflage unless he is specifically hiding, and if he is hiding then he is not contributing to the imemdiacy of force of the attack

When would you be more scared? If you heard radio chatter of a bunch of guys with guns killing the rest of your garrison, or if you heard, say, the SAS were killing your garrison?

>> No.12461579

>>12461506

See
>>12461274
> It is up to each Imperial citizen how much, or how little he will become in his service to the Emperor.

I don't know about you, but it sounds to me like he's out and out stating that people in the Imperium have choice regarding what they WILL be as opposed to simply having choice about what they're going to TRY to be. He's claiming that they do have great social mobility.

>> No.12461595

>>12461567

So by genetics alone, a Fire warrior will always have to live the life of a fire warrior. Sure, he may get to "retire" to a life of politics. But what if he yearned as a child to be in the water, or air caste? If he tried his hand at those he'd be reprimanded for going against ths "greater good" and carted back to fire warrior training, or executed/re-educated/brainwashed for the greater good.

The Tau cannot deviate from the life they were handed. Ever.

Unless You're mother fucking Farsight.

>> No.12461597

>>12460884
Eldrad is definetly behind this.
What a dick.

>> No.12461603

>>12461579

They do have horizontal social mobility. The Tau don't have any of that. A tailor might choose to be a doctor, and if he's good enough, can be. A Fire caste simply won't be flying shuttles, ever.

>> No.12461609

>An eight foot superhuman will not be helped at all by camouflage unless he is specifically hiding, and if he is hiding then he is not contributing to the imemdiacy of force of the attack

Even tanks can benefit from camo, and space marines definitely derive a heavy benefit from cover -- cover can save them from most weapons that can kill them.

>> No.12461623

>>12461579
No, I did not mean that. See >>12461566

However, arguing sentence structure over what you "think" we meant as opposed to us "telling" you what we meant is just trying to derail the topic at hand.

Perhaps the explanations before were worded incorrectly, but we've explained the meaning already.

>> No.12461638

>>12461566
> Getting to the top of society in real life is almost the same as getting to the top in Imperial society.

That's still absurd. There are hereditary titles in the Imperium, a noble class that is born into immense wealth and power over entire worlds while the hive scum and rabble are left to rot at the bottom, working 140 hours a week for their entire lives for a pittance. There are feudal worlds that don't even have steam power let alone FTL travel and worlds with technology vastly beyond out own world. Education is practically nonexistent even on the technologically advanced worlds. For every rogue trader who scrabbled up from nothing there are billions, perhaps trillions that never strayed from the station they were born into, be it fantastically high or abysmally low.

Social advancement is vastly more difficult in 40k than in the real world.

>> No.12461650

>>12461603
This isn't comparative. I never brought in the Tau. I'm merely stating that the idea that the Imperium actually has anything that could characterized as halfway decent social mobility, as was claimed in the post I originally responded to, is absurd.

>> No.12461664

For both sides of the marine argument, the Codex Astartes has a section about camouflage for hundreds of different types of alien worlds, they are usually in their chapter colors because they are knights in space with heraldry, and the fans (which are unfortunately writing official things, with no one trying to maintain continuity) read the index astartes series of books/articles.

also, all but about three people in this thread have actually read a book, the rest seem to be crapping out things they have read on /tg/ ignoring anything that they don't agree with.

>> No.12461685

>>12461595
Says the person defending a society with an out and out aristocracy. With slave labor. With hive workers who have never even seen another job, let alone been able to hold one. With guard conscripts herded into battle in order to provide cover for the tanks, and shot if he pauses in the face of enemy fire that would rip him to shreds. You're holding up the Imperium of Man as an example of good social mobility. Think about that for a moment before then changing your standards when talking about the Tau.

>> No.12461693

>>12461650

No one said it was decent or even "good" social mobility.

We merely stated that social mobility "exists" in the Imperium, whereas it does not even hope to exist in Tau society.

>> No.12461711

>>12461693
> whereas it does not even hope to exist in Tau society.

None? None at all? So it's impossible to ever advance in rank? Upward mobility is a form of mobility, after all.

Apparently there is no such thing as a promotion in the Tau Empire. Live and learn.

>> No.12461719

>>12461685

We're not "defending" Imperial society and holding it aboe Tau society. We're merely observing from an outside perspective.

The imperium has terrible societal mobility, but it exists.

Tau have no societal mobility at all.

These are both facts.

>> No.12461738

>>12461711
>None? None at all? So it's impossible to ever advance in rank?

Rank advancement is not the same as societal mobility.

Societal mobility implies you can become more than what you were born into, or go outside the reach of what everyone expected you to do from birth.

A tau can only achieve higher rank in the caste he was already born. He can never achieve ANY sort of rank in say the water or air caste. He wouldn't even be allowed to try.

>> No.12461752

>>12461693

> We merely stated that social mobility "exists" in the Imperium, whereas it does not even hope to exist in Tau society.

Social mobility exists in both societies. Your claim that it is exclusive to the Imperium ignores the fact that there exists a hierarchy in which it is possible to advance. Significantly more easily than in the Imperium, as the Tau don't have the same labor practices or combat doctrines as the Imperium, whose idea of labor and battle is to expend lives until the problem goes away. In the Tau Empire it's significantly less likely to die in such a manner, meaning it is more likely that your advancement will not be cut short so abruptly purely because of the circumstances of your birth. In the Imperium, if you're born in a situation which results in your conscription into the Imperial Guard, that's pretty much the end for you. Not a whole lot of mobility when you're gunned down and left to die in a ditch.

>> No.12461780

>>12461738
> Rank advancement is not the same as societal mobility.

Really. Then you and I have very different definitions of the term. You seem to think that only horizontal mobility matters, while I believe that both horizontal and vertical movement are examples of social mobility. Of course, even then the problem of the guard conscript remains. Even under your limited definition, he has no social mobility for the same reason the Tau don't under your definition. Others won't let him be something else, that is the very definition of a conscript.

>> No.12461782

>Not a whole lot of mobility when you're gunned down and left to die in a ditch.

This still proves my point however.

Tau can only ever go from point A to point B in their society. However, that path is probably a lot safer for the most part, and most tau will see to the end of path A to B.

Humans on the other hand are capable from going from point A to B, C, D, E, Z, X, ect ect should they choose to or try to....but they will be dodging a lot more knifes edge trying to get there.

>> No.12461791

>>12461782
Unless you get conscripted into the Imperial Guard, at which point you're stuck on one path. That you probably will never see the end of.

>> No.12461828

>>12461738
> Societal mobility implies you can become more than what you were born into, or go outside the reach of what everyone expected you to do from birth.

You are born a child. Fire caste, water, air, whatever. You're still a child. From there you become a Shas'la. And from there, you can become something more than that. Or not. You can become more than people expected you to be, above what they expected you to be. Or not. That's still social mobility.

Also, there are only five castes. Think about that for a moment. Five castes covering all the professions of a space-faring civilization. Think of the scope of each caste, in reality it is immense. Far more options than the two options the Imperial Guard conscript has. Be killed by the enemy or be killed by your "allies."

>> No.12461843

>vertical movement are examples of social mobility

So walking down the same path, the same way that a thousand other tau before you is advancement? Seems more like societal constraint and stagnation.

>Unless you get conscripted into the Imperial Guard, at which point you're stuck on one path. That you probably will never see the end of.

Just because the chance of reaching the end of the path are 0.01% does not mean that the chances of you reaching the end are Zero.

>> No.12461849

>>12461791

Even in the IG there are plenty of paths. Be good at killing, make it to a vet company. Lead well, and progress through the officer ranks. Show initiative and balls, and make it to special units like Stormtroopers. Maybe try out as a medic, see if you can make field surgeon. Work near tanks, get into driving one. Be SUPERFAITH, get into a planetary Commisariat. Hell, become a maintenance worker, or a logistics officer. Or if all else fails, find a dead officer and put his uniform on, then hope everyone who'd recognise him died too. Even then, once you're out, and you've chosen the new land or the new job, you've got a thousand options open to you and the means to make them happen. That you'll probably die doesn't negate the huge element of choice that exists as to where you'll try to end up.

>> No.12461923

>>12461843
> Just because the chance of reaching the end of the path are 0.01% does not mean that the chances of you reaching the end are Zero.

You give them far better odds than I would. And besides, one could make a similar argument in the case of the Tau caste system. It is possible to control elements of what would normally be considered the other caste's business. Not likely, but then again you seem to think that an infinitesimally small chance is worth trumpeting as success anyway, so why not consider this as well?

>> No.12461937

So, any news yet on the new Tau codex?

>> No.12461942

>>12461843
> So walking down the same path, the same way that a thousand other tau before you is advancement? Seems more like societal constraint and stagnation.

You say this while defending the Imperium. You talk about stagnation, while treating the Imperium as if it's not exactly that. That's rich.

>> No.12461960

>>12461843
> So walking down the same path, the same way that a thousand other tau before you is advancement? Seems more like societal constraint and stagnation.

This just in, being promoted is nothing more than an expression of societal constraints and stagnation. Instead, which should institute a system where promotions do not exist unless you play Russian Roulette first, with a full loaded gun and the hope that it will jam. This is obviously an example of better social mobility.

>> No.12461965

>>12461937
Not until 2011 at the earliest.

>> No.12461974

>>12461965
Any rumors/leaks/etc. yet?

>> No.12461992

>>12461942

There's a difference between stagnation and struggling not to go backwards.

The Imperium is struggling to hold onto an empire so large that the Emperor had trouble holding it with the full might of the Crusade armies, but with vastly fewer forces, a grossly weakened technological base, and countless more and more hostile threats actively seeking its downfall from both within and without.

When each day one man stops the Imperium from coming one step closer to collapse and annihilation is a heroic victory worthy of a tale to last all time, making no forward progress is not particularly surprising.

>> No.12461994

>>12461974
Aside from the fact that it will feature a large conflict with the Imperium, nothing.

>> No.12462006
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12462006

>>12461960
>This just in, being promoted is nothing more than an expression of societal constraints and stagnation

See fire warrior in pic. He wants to become Earth or Water Caste. But he is punished if he goes against the Greater Good?

Wat do?

>> No.12462048

>>12461994

A fiver says it's another example of how OUR DARING AND PLUCKY YOUNG HEROES MANAGE TO BEAT THE MEAN OLD BADDIES fit for a children's show.

The fact that the Tau are a playable race despite their fluff-status means that they'll never be truly fluff-appropriate, but fuck, at least somebody could put some fucking effort into trying to come close.

>> No.12462103

>>12461960
This is actually a decent analogy.

Tau:
Make a dart board. Divide it into five sections, each is a grouping of professions.
1 represents anything that has to do with fighting. Anything military, law enforcement, etc. This is the Fire Caste.
2 represents anything that has to do with building/creating. Everything from simple construction, to architecture, to computer programming, engineering of practically any stripe, etc. This is the Earth Caste. It is the largest section, as in the fluff the Earth Caste is the most numerous.
3 represents anything that has to do with talking to others. This can be communication, journalism, diplomacy, etc. This is the Water Caste.
4 represents anything that involves traveling. Transportation, flight, exploration (includes NASA), etc. This is the Air Caste.
5 represents anything that involves leading. This can involve management of any of the previous four sections, politics, etc. This is the Ethereal Caste, and it is the smallest section.
Obviously there will be a whole lot of overlap between sections, though if you can make a reasonable case for a career being a part of your section, you can probably get it.
Throw a dart. Pick your career out of the section where it lands.

Imperium:
Play russian roulette with a fully loaded gun and hope it jams. If you win, you get to pick your career from any of the sections.

>> No.12462138

>>12462103
>Throw a dart. Pick your career out of the section where it lands.

Implying Tau get to throw the dart themselves, instead of it already being thrown for them at birth like it actually is.

>Imperium: Play russian roulette with a fully loaded gun and hope it jams. If you win, you get to pick your career from any of the sections.

Accurate description is accurate.

>> No.12462196

>>12462006

He has about as good a chance of edging his way in, or getting on an Ethereal's good side enough that his treading on water or air caste toes might be overlooked, as an Imperial Guard conscript has of surviving to become something other than a conscript. Or that an Imperial Navy galley slave might one day be something other than a galley slave. Or that his children, or their grandchildren might be something other than a galley slave.

In practice, the Imperium's supposed superiority is an illusion.

Also, within the fire caste you can always move laterally simply by rising high enough that you can, in practice, move amongst the other castes, learn from them, and work with them on a high level under the pretense of commanding their defense. Who's going to argue with the local fire caste garrison commander? The ethereal in the next system over? Are you really going to bother him about that?

Vertical mobility makes horizontal mobility possible. Once one has the power, many more options become available. Conversely, in the Imperium one actually has fewer options, because the power needed to attain your goals is so much more difficult to come by.

>> No.12462212

>>12462138
> Implying Tau get to throw the dart themselves, instead of it already being thrown for them at birth like it actually is.

I probably should have specified. You throw it blind. That represents the circumstance of your birth. You have no control over it, but then again there isn't some nebulous other who does either.

>> No.12462234

>>12462196
>He has about as good a chance of edging his way in, or getting on an Ethereal's good side enough that his treading on water or air caste toes might be overlooked

You have missed the point of Tau entirely. The whole basis of their story is that they CANNOT edge into another caste. They are stuck in their caste for life. Marrying outside their caste is punishable by death as it goes against the edicts of The "Greater Good".

It is one of the few subtle things that actually make the Tau somewhat grim, and dare I say it dark, that allows them to fit into the WH40k setting.

>> No.12462341

>>12462234
> Marrying outside their caste is punishable by death as it goes against the edicts of The "Greater Good".

1. Tau don't marry. That's a human thing.
2. Where does it say that performing an already exclusively human mating ritual is punished by death? Citation?

>>12462234
> You have missed the point of Tau entirely. The whole basis of their story is that they CANNOT edge into another caste. They are stuck in their caste for life.

And you seem to think that all rules are unbreakable, that they cannot even be bent with sufficient power. The castes are already vague. They step on each others toes, boundaries between what one is allowed to do and what is the purview of another are unclear, and a sufficiently high ranking individual, especially if he has some pull with an Ethereal, can redefine them in specific cases. Also, the Tau are extremely orderly. They follow their superiors. And if you happen to be that superior, there is quite a bit you can get away with, especially on a frontier world.

The castes are not physical laws of the universe that Tau are incapable of pushing up against, stretching, and bending. With sufficient power, a great many things are possible. That's why the Tau's lack of horizontal mobility isn't actually as crippling as the Imperium's lack of vertical mobility. Vertical mobility can bring about horizontal mobility, because the higher you get the more you can stretch those limits.

>> No.12462399

>>12462341
>1. Tau don't marry. That's a human thing.

Ok, MATE. not allowed to "MATE" or have a mating partner outside their caste. Same fucking difference, you know what I mean.

Not allowed to stick blue dicky thingy (if they have one) in blue vajayjay thingy (if they have one) unless you are from the same caste. .

>And you seem to think that all rules are unbreakable, that they cannot even be bent with sufficient power.

Rules can be Broken and bent. That is, however, against the edicts of the Greater Good and must be done with subtlety and hidden from prying eyes. To go against the edicts of the Greater Good is a faux pas in tau society and looked down upon in great extreme.

>2. Where does it say that performing an already exclusively human mating ritual is punished by death? Citation?
I thought this was mentioned in the first dex? or perhaps only talked about in a white dwarf around the time Tau first came out. All I remember clearly is that for trying to mate our have relations outside your caste, you are severely punished.

>> No.12462495

>>12462399
> Ok, MATE. not allowed to "MATE" or have a mating partner outside their caste. Same fucking difference, you know what I mean.
> Not allowed to stick blue dicky thingy (if they have one) in blue vajayjay thingy (if they have one) unless you are from the same caste.
No, they're not allowed to actually breed. That's what the Tau codex says. Produce offspring. Sex in and of itself is not necessarily prohibited. It's children that they take issue with.

> That is, however, against the edicts of the Greater Good and must be done with subtlety and hidden from prying eyes.
Which becomes easier with higher station. And higher station is significantly easier to acquire in the Tau Empire than in the Imperium. However, I'm glad to see that you're finally admitting it is possible. Before you were out and out insisting that it could not happen.

> To go against the edicts of the Greater Good is a faux pas in tau society and looked down upon in great extreme.
Only if it is recognized as such. And again, the caste boundaries can get a bit vague. If there isn't an Ethereal to pass judgment, or if the Ethereal passes judgment in your favor, then you can still get away with quite a bit.

> All I remember clearly is that for trying to mate our have relations outside your caste, you are severely punished.
Well, that's contradicted by their current one. Even if it were true, I fail to see how you get from there to the death penalty. The Tau aren't very big on that sort of thing. Waste of resources and all that. They're not nearly as trigger happy when it comes to killing their own people as the Imperium is.

>> No.12462549

>>12462495

So, going against the edicts of the Greater Good is the only way Tau can live freely?

>> No.12462603

>>12462549

If you can make a case for it, it can be entirely within the Greater Good. Or it might be in a nebulous gray area that exists in all societies. The point is the supposedly rigid caste system is not actually as rigid as a lot of people think. That's one of the reasons the Tau have been able to survive, they have a degree of flexibility that the Imperium lacks. If an Ethereal okays it, it's all good, and if you can make a good enough case to an Ethereal, well they're still thinking beings that can be negotiated and reasoned with.

The point is that there is room with the Greater Good for a lot of behavior that one might think at first glance was a violation of it. Gray areas exist. Overlap exists. Vague language, unclear boundaries, and the odd reasonable person exist. These things combine to make the Greater Good not actually as bad as a lot of people think it is. This is of course also helped by the fact that, despite its cold appearance, the Tau Empire is significantly more personal that the Imperium purely by virtue of small size, automation, and philosophy regarding the value of a life.

>> No.12462662

>and philosophy regarding the value of a life.

Tau life, that is.

Even when they integrate other races, they make sure to stamp out their culture and replace it with Tau culture, or lack therof. It is in many ways like how China forces people to abandon their culture and language and "become Chinese".

Tau society is crushing. These gray areas, as they are, are reserved only for the Tau who have proven to be more important to Tau society, or "More equal than Others" if I have to bring it to that. (Hence the propaganda 'Tau First among equals")

I highly doubt a Gue'vasa who joins the ranks of the fire warriors would eve get that treatment.

>> No.12462755

>>12462662
> Even when they integrate other races, they make sure to stamp out their culture and replace it with Tau culture, or lack therof. It is in many ways like how China forces people to abandon their culture and language and "become Chinese".

The Kroot and Demiurge have largely held on to their cultures. The Gue'vesa are a somewhat more complicated case considering that KILL THE XENO is a part of that culture. It's understandable that the Tau would want to get rid of that part at least. Otherwise, however, the Tau mostly let the humans do as they please so long as they don't stir up trouble, start killing people, or openly rebel (that's when they roll out the re-eduction and sterilization).

And the Tau still do value human lives more than the Imperium does. But then again that's really not all that hard. It's a testament to the setting that the Tau, who would be the obvious bad guys if they were in almost any other setting, are the closest thing 40k has to an actually decent faction purely by virtue of not being as pointlessly nasty as everyone else.

>> No.12464609

>>12461738
The Fire Caste is its own subspecies.
Of course they never become air caste.

Thats like saying that Humanity has no social mobility since blacks can never become whites.

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