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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.12155458 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

-Luke,Obi-Wan never told you what class I was at level 1!
-He told me enough,this is a sci-fi you're a Sith.....and you killed my father.
-No Luke us jedi are the best played paladin characters on the big screen.
-NOOOo.....you're a Sith for start so you'd have to be a "fallen" Jedi first but.... no paladins are empowered by law and good and sometimes religion not the force.
-Search your feelings you know it to be true!

>> No.12155476

Jedi are trolls.

>> No.12155478

Jedi are sorcerors with a silly code of conduct.

>> No.12155489

>>12155478
They're both. They have an annoying personal code and magical powers. They can even fall to evil.

Paladins with telekinesis and laser swords. Shit's pretty cool.

>> No.12155492

>>12155476
>>12155478
Jedi are Troll Sorcerers.

>> No.12155508

they're more like wizards than paladin. When was the last time you saw a jedi in fullplate?

plus their spells are just more wizardy than divine.

>> No.12155516

Jedis are third edition paladins with samurai prestige class.

>> No.12155518

Lawful neutral monks who everyone confuses to be lawful good.

>> No.12155525

>>12155508
Obi Wan in both versions of Clone Wars.

>> No.12155526

Despite the "protecting good" motif they give off, Jedi are more lawful than good. They just have their own set of laws they follow.

And Sith are more chaotic than evil, generally. At their worst, they always descend into chaotic stupid, though.

The Empire was a sort of meritocracy splashed with prejudice against non-humans, informed strongly by the Sith ideals of might makes right.

>> No.12155530

I like how everyone is discussing the idea expressed in the OP while completely ignoring how terrible the actual post is.

>> No.12155538

>>12155526
> The Empire was a sort of meritocracy

No it wasn't. See Ysanne Isard.

>> No.12155541

>>12155530
Idiots can have purpose, we just have to give them one.

>> No.12155546

>>12155526
>Vader
>Chaotic
WTF AM I READING.PNG

>> No.12155547

>>12155538
>informed strongly by the Sith ideals of might makes right.
She decided to take charge, and then did.

>> No.12155558

>>12155546
Vader helped to overthrow the Republic, and then went on a campaign of murder against his former colleagues. For pussy. That he also killed.
>Vader
>Not chaotic
WTF AM I READING.GIF

>> No.12155569

>>12155547
Mainly by being the Emperor's personal boot licker. When she actually took charge she was laughably incompetent.

>> No.12155570

It's like the alignment system can't even be applied to fictional characters!

>> No.12155580

>>12155569
Of course she was. Might makes right is generally considered less-than-universally successful for determining leadership. Just because she had the capacity to take power doesn't mean she was any good with it. She was a fucking Intelligence operative, not a politician.

It's not like I'm saying the Empire was wildly successful, or anything.

>> No.12155582

> And Sith are more chaotic than evil, generally. At their worst, they always descend into chaotic stupid, though.

The Sith are founded on the idea of "Screw everyone else, it's all about me. Me, me, me." They vary between NE (the calculating ones) and CE (the crazy ones), but that's about it. Just about the only one who ever deviated from that was Revan, and he was a really bizarre case.

>> No.12155593

Have their ever been factions that are just commited to exterminating ALL Force users? Jedi and Sith alike? Their silly millenia-old feuds have fucked up the Galaxy constantly, you'd think a bunch of people would step and be all: "You two and your stupid magic bullshit stops, NOW."

>> No.12155604

>>12155582
>The Sith are founded on the idea of "Screw everyone else, it's all about me. Me, me, me."
That's... pretty off. Might makes right is much more their modus operandi.

>> No.12155606

Jedi are tyrants and Sith are a necessary evil.

..Anyone else remember that /co/ thread?

>>12155593
Check out Darth Kreia.

>> No.12155607

>>12155593
That extragalactic invasion force, the Yuzzan Vong.

Yeah. It took the neighbours to come over to slap the shit out of everyone, and they didn't even succeed very well, even if they did better than the Empire.

>> No.12155611

>>12155593
The other Force institutions tend to just duck their heads and ignore them, preferring to hide on backwater worlds and the like. Like normal people in RPGs, but with special powers.

It probably says something that the two groups that feel the need to enact some great destiny fuck everything up constantly, and all the "take life as it comes" groups avoid them as much as possible.

>> No.12155614

>>12155526
>informed strongly by the Sith ideals of might makes right.
That's LE. The weak must obey the strong is the traditional LE setup. The Sith even have that built into their structure, with master/apprentice pairs where the apprentice is expected to obey the master until they can overpower them. Not to say all Sith are LE, but their philosophy is.

>> No.12155615

well if you consider merit defined exclusively as the power to kill than yes the Empire was a big meritocracy also captcha expeolds plebeians WTH?

>> No.12155621

>>12155582
I always saw it as the Jedi being NOBLEBRIGHT, equality-obsessed, "good for the sake of good" motherfuckers, and the Sith just representing individualism. The thing is, because the Jedi ethos is so.. bland, with its only downsides being that it slowly rots away at a vibrant culture, the Sith rarely get to show up. When they do show up, they burn ten times as brightly but one tenth as long, and champion their ideals to the extreme. So you have the Jedi as these omnipresent superpansies and the Sith as occasional mega-douchebags, instead of a healthy medium.

The Force is probably like the Warp in that it is nonjudgmental, but mirrors the psychic footprints of sentient races. The history of the galaxy is just a slugging match between two antithetical ideas that should be melded together.

>> No.12155630

>>12155621
There's an in-universe compromise, no Light or Dark, just power and the will to use it for good or ill. The Jedi consider it heresy, the Sith manipulate it for recruiting purposes.

Jedi and Sith are dick-punchers to galactic stability.

>> No.12155633

>>12155614
thats never made sense to me. lawful is lawful, good or evil. power to kill determining dominance is just so chaotic it hurts.

>> No.12155638

>>12155593

FOR FUCKS SAKE!

Enough with the magic bullshit! YOU ALL DIE NOW!

>> No.12155647

Do you find our lack of fate disturbing?

>> No.12155652

>>12155621
> and the Sith just representing individualism.

This is wrong. As in, actively contradicted by the setting. The Sith philosophy isn't just individualism, it contains a massive does of pretty serious egoism too. Under the Sith philosophy the self is the only thing that matters, all others are simply tools. If given a choice between losing a tiny amount of his own power and billions of other people dying, a Sith would rather kill the billions of people. And they do. Many times.

>> No.12155657

>>12155630
> The Jedi consider it heresy, the Sith manipulate it for recruiting purposes.

The former is because of the latter. The Jedi dislike that idea because whenever it gets mentioned, 9 times out of 10 it's a Sith talking.

>> No.12155658

>>12155633
>power to kill determining dominance is just so chaotic it hurts.
Not really, because you're expected to obey those stronger than you in a reliable and competent way until you can challenge them. The Chaotic version of that is constant brawling, insubordination, testing the limits of authority all the time- you obey not because those more powerful than you are your betters and deserve to lead you, but because they'll kill you if you don't.

>> No.12155661

>>12155633
>power to kill determining dominance is just so chaotic it hurts
It works very well in small scale organisations. It also makes sense in real world gangs as being one tough motherfucker makes other people fall into line. It's no more arbitrary than "power of having the most financial acumen" or "power of having the most charisma".

>> No.12155681

>>12155652
Well, what I meant was that the Sith show up with a hamfisted attempt at a counter to Jedi philosophy. As I said, they don't have a lot of time to hammer out the details, and they are totally opposed by existing dogma and institutions. So they tend to morph "radical individualism" into "HURR RAPE AND PILLAGE".

I don't think the Sith are right, since they are not even a concrete institution. I think they are just the occasional, violent outbreak of a perfectly valid and mostly stifled philosophical position. Around that position, a few institutions (Rule of Two, for example) have been built up but they are really not that important.

>> No.12155704

>>12155681
> So they tend to morph "radical individualism" into "HURR RAPE AND PILLAGE".

There was no morphing involved. They were "HURR RAPE AND PILLAGE" pretty much from the get go.

> I don't think the Sith are right, since they are not even a concrete institution.

They were for a while, and man did it suck. Started war after war that killed billions, all for the benefit of a select few. And they were always backstabbing each other along the way. It's pretty much what you expect when your philosophy pretty much boils down to "take whatever you want and kill anyone who gets in the way because they don't matter."

> I think they are just the occasional, violent outbreak of a perfectly valid and mostly stifled philosophical position.

I fail to see how the aforementioned philosophy is perfectly valid. It's actually philosophically groundless, as there is no non-arbitrary reason to say that the self is inherently more valuable than any other person.

>> No.12155720

Wasn't there an order of Grey Knights that got the best of the Sith and Jedi ideals, combining the search of ultimate power with an oath of responsibility? I remember hearing something about he Jedi exterminating them because the Jedi feared the Greys couldn't handle it, but I think they just didn't like the compromise.

>> No.12155727

>>12155720

Did somebody say Grey Knights?

>> No.12155729

>>12155704
>There was no morphing involved.

The Sith believe in radical, self-serving individualism along the lines of Stirner. The Jedi believe (nominally) in absolute self-sacrifice, the "greater good". Personally I prefer the former, but ultimately I think they are both wrong. I think the ideal would be a "grey" Jedi that combines the two positions to get something more like Nietzsche - raitonally self-serving but also capable of friendship, empathy and even sacrifice. Camaraderie is as valid as personal achievement and power. The Sith ignore certain elements of human nature just as the Jedi do.

>They were for a while, and man did it suck.

You're mistaking me. I do not think "the Sith" in any of their countless iterations have been particularly good for the galaxy (well, I still prefer certain Empires to the Republic, but that's not important here). I just think major Dark Side movements represent a coming to the fore of normally suppressed ideals which are perfectly valid on their own. This suppression causes their resurgence to be needlessly violent.

>I fail to see how the aforementioned philosophy is perfectly valid.

There are many popular and esteemed philosophers who advocated "selfish" ethics. I already mentioned Stirner and Nietzsche. I think slave moralism is a particularly large problem in the Republic, especially during those phases when it is directly led by the Jedi.

>> No.12155754

>>12155704
>It's actually philosophically groundless, as there is no non-arbitrary reason to say that the self is inherently more valuable than any other person.

Forgot to say, there is the issue that you only have access to your own subjective experience. That's as close to bridging the is-ought gap as anyone has ever gotten: pain sucks, pleasure is fun, and I only have access to mine.

>> No.12155786

>>12155754
Close. But not actually there. Is-ought still remains an issue, meaning that the Sith philosophy is not "perfectly valid" like you seem to want to believe it is.

>> No.12155791

>>12155720
The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code. However, those who were considered to be true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition.

Although the term did not directly refer to those who were capable of using both light and dark side Force abilities, all Gray Jedi could do so. The term was sometimes used to refer to unorthodox or dissident Jedi who did not meet the strictest requirements of being a Gray Jedi. For example, the Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn was thought of by some members of the Jedi Order as a Gray Jedi for his disagreements with the High Council. The term dated back as far as the Old Sith Wars, when the High Council attempted to consolidate their power and centralize the Order. Some Jedi felt that the Council did not have the authority to reinterpret the Jedi Code, and considered themselves beholden only to the Force. These early Gray Jedi clashed with the Council over new strictures of the Code, such as those barring attachment or restricting training. During this time period, Gray Jedi became associated with a certain variety of robe; The term was later used by the New Jedi Order to refer to entire Force traditions that held views that differed from the Jedi's but did not embrace the dark side. The Jensaarai and the Imperial Knights were two such organizations.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

So they're protestants?

>> No.12155802

>>12155720
They were called the Jensaarai. They and the Jedi actually get along these days. Though three of them went full on dark side, tried to take over, and got killed. If anything the people who were the biggest threat to them were the Sith, they didn't do so well under the Empire.

>> No.12155824

>>12155729
> This suppression causes their resurgence to be needlessly violent.

No, it's the fact that the Sith's philosophy encourages violence that causes it to be violent. For example, in the Hyperspace War it was the Sith who started it. The Jedi weren't suppressing them, they weren't even aware that they were there.

>> No.12155826

>>12155786
Of course it's still an issue, but you're alive, aren't you? You're not a nihilist. If you subscribe to the is-ought problem then you are either a nihilist (ie. dead) or an absurdist (ie. "Oh well, I still like eating pies! Guess I'll stick around anyway!"). To continue existing after acknowledging the subjectivity of all values is to acknowledge that subjective values are still real, at least to the individuals who hold them.

Sith philosophy can be boiled down to "serve yourself" and Jedi philosophy can be boiled down to "serve others", when you blast away all the cruft, dogma and institutions. At the end of the day it's just dudes with laser swords taking one of two roads. They are both right and wrong for various reasons, which is why I think a synthesis is the best solution.

Well, the best solution would be to annihilate the Force altogether, but failing that.

>> No.12155842

>>12155824
The Jedi had exiled them. I never said the Jedi oppressed the Sith (a misleading term, since "Sith" is not a concrete philosophical position), I said they repress the ideals of the Dark Side Force Users. Just like our modern society suppresses egoism in favour of bullshit like secular humanism.

The fact that you think ethical egoism, radical or not, is not a valid philosophical standpoint is not really relevant. There are many who think it is. You have to demonstrate its invalidity, without simply showing that many who claimed to subscribe to it (mostly mistakenly) were douchebags. Hitler being a Fascist does not mean authoritarianism is necessarily bad or ineffective.

>> No.12155848

>>12155826
> They are both right and wrong for various reasons, which is why I think a synthesis is the best solution.

That's fallacious logic. Just because two philosophies are wrong doesn't mean mixing them will create something that is right. The synthesis is no more likely to be right purely by virtue of it being in the middle.

>> No.12155856

Pic maybe related to topic.

>> No.12155861

>>12155848
I don't think a synthesis is correct simply because it is a moderate position. I never said that. I just happen to think a moderate position is correct since I value many things from both perspectives.

I am not appealing to the fallacy of moderation.

>> No.12155870

>>12155842
> You have to demonstrate its invalidity

Is-ought. Calling it "valid" is a misuse of the term. Also, your claim that people do think it's valid has no bearing on whether it is or isn't valid. Popularity does not necessarily mean it is valid.

And yes, the Jedi exiled them, leaving them to develop their philosophy elsewhere. That isn't repressing, it is allowing them it continue to develop, and your attempt to claim that the Jedi are the ones responsible for the violence of the Hyperspace war is ridiculous, as it ignores the fact that the war resulted directly from the Sith's desire for power and little else. They were the aggressors, not the Jedi.

>> No.12155886

>>12155848

Bitch please, Middle Path is Best Path. They're supposed to temper each others fuckups first and foremost.

>> No.12155890

>>12155870
All I meant is that you can't simply say "BUT SOME SITH WERE REALLY VIOLENT!" to argue against "a degree of self-interest is one part of a healthy psyche", which is all I'm saying. Obviously we are agreeing on certain values here, namely the safety and prosperity of the Republic, so the is-ought problem isn't really relevant.

My opinion is that the Jedi exiled a splinter faction rather than dealing with its views. They demonized the Dark Side instead of either integrating it, or exterminating it.

>> No.12155894

>>12155861
> I don't think a synthesis is correct simply because it is a moderate position. I never said that.

Except in the post where you made the synthesis comment you did just leave it at that. You gave no additional arguments in its favor. I'm not psychic, I can't do much more than take what you say at face value and roll with it. If that's not what you mean then say what you actually mean.

>> No.12155907

>>12155894
>You gave no additional arguments in its favor.

Well we're not exactly being rigorous here. I was just opening it for discussion, like so: "I think the Sith suck, and the Jedi suck, but they both have good ideas sometimes so a Grey approach could be cool". I don't want to write up a fucking thesis or anything.

>> No.12155918

>>12155890
Integration of the Sith was not an option for the Jedi. Sith ideals are too violent and too self-serving to be supportive of the Jedi ideal; it would be similar to teaching murder as an option in a school that wishes to advocate pacifism. However, neither could the Jedi simply exterminate them because that would violate their code, so in the end they just exiled the Sith in the hopes that they would realize their folly or at the very least, be too far from society to spread.

>> No.12155941

>>12155918
There were no Sith at this point, it was just Dark Side adepts really. And I wasn't proposing integrating the individuals, just learning from them and their ways instead of banishing them and having a massive circlejerk on Coruscant over how nifty YOUR ideology is.

Both the Jedi and the Sith are religious orders who need to be exterminated and hopefully replaced by a public philosophical tradition and discourse on the Force.

>> No.12155943

> to argue against "a degree of self-interest is one part of a healthy psyche"

Except I'm not arguing against that. Every time I have comment on it I have always mentioned that it is the Sith's ABSOLUTE devotion to self interest that leads to issues. It is the fact that they consider others too only have instrumental value which is the source of conflict, and that it is really to be expected from such a philosophy. My argument is that you're giving the Sith far more credit than they deserve. They did have an opportunity to show their worth, and they used it to start the Hyperspace War.

>> No.12155953

>>12155907
What are you doing? you shouldn't concede defeat in a debate. Research more, there are always holes to widen.

>> No.12155958

>>12155941
> And I wasn't proposing integrating the individuals, just learning from them and their ways instead of banishing them and having a massive circlejerk on Coruscant over how nifty YOUR ideology is.

Their ideology had started a terrible war that resulted in a great many needless deaths. That's why they were exiled, because they had killed people. The fact that their philosophy's trial run was a massive civil war wasn't a promising start, and it's entirely reasonable that the Jedi took that as a sign that they should probably look elsewhere for guidance.

>> No.12155971

>>12155593
It doesn't matter if you take the Jedi and Sith out of it. There will still be dark side users who can take control of the galaxy without light side wielders of the Force (read: Jedi) around to stand in their way. Only one author springs to mind offhand that actually holds the view that the Jedi should all be gone because they "cause problems for everybody else" and she's the next thing to a frothing lunatic. I speak, of course, of Karen Traviss.

>>12155630
It's heresy because when you believe that you can use the dark side to do good, you're just going to fuck yourself over. Star Wars is not moral relativism. It's good vs evil. Jedi are good, Sith (and other dark side users) are evil. When the novels tried to bring "relative" good and evil into it, Lucas stepped in, dickslapped the authors down and told them to get their shit back into line. So they doubled back on themselves and decided that the idea of "dark side exists in the person rather than the Force" was a Sith trick to lure people to the dark side instead as a way of covering their asses.

>> No.12155973

>Star Wars thread

There's something I wanted to ask people about when it comes to the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

From my experience, it seems that the people who read the comics and played the videogames have a much higher regard for the EU when compared to the people who've read the novels and books.

Is this just a coincidence, or do most Star Wars books (with a few exceptions, such as those written by Timothy Zahn) just plain suck?

>> No.12155974

>>12155943
>the Sith's ABSOLUTE devotion to self interest

And my problem is the Jedi approach of absolute devotion to self-sacrifice. They have the benefit of a slightly more nuanced approach because they've had longer to work out the details, but they're still fundamentally wrong, just like the Sith. Neither "the greater good" or "every man for himself" is a very good way to live.

They started the Great Hyperspace War because they wanted power and revenge, like any selfish entity would. If that selfishness had been tempered by camaraderie, fraternity, even empathy, maybe they would have done things differently. Just like the Jedi might not lead the Republic as an ailing, corrupt bureaucratic elite if they weren't feckless egalitarians.

>> No.12155995

>>12155953
It's more that I don't want to write a massive spergpost on PROTO-MARXIST HEGELIAN SEMIOTICS OF ANARCHIST EGOISM IN "STAR WARS": A SIX PART DISCOURSE. If someone wants to hold fast to the idea that Jedi = good, Sith = bad and selfish = bad, sacrifice = good, I won't try to budge him from his position.

>>12155958
You don't give a philosophy a trial run, you work it out by logic. You don't give both sides of an argument laser swords and let them duke it out. A spacefaring civilization should have moved beyond trial by combat. Closing potential routes for philosophical discourse just because someone of the opposite ethical stance to yours happened to rape and murder your family is just narrowminded, even if it is emotionally appealing.

The Republic's approach to the Dark Side was to exile it, shut everyone up about it, and turn the Jedi into a priestly caste. Really dumb and reactionary, if understandable mistake.

>> No.12155996

>>12155973
There's some good stuff, and there's also some shit. Good stuff is usually found in the older fiction - X-wing series, Thrawn Trilogy, I Jedi and the Thrawn Duology. There's also the Knights of the Old Republic comic series. A lot of the new stuff is pure crap, with only a few redeeming bits and pieces (Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, for example).

>> No.12156006

>>12155941
But the Jedai have learned from the ones who fell. They take extra measure to ensure their trainees don't delve too much into the dark side; A council is held over every neophyte that shows signs of increasing aggression and violence. What the Jedi do now is to stifle the anger before it becomes etched into the padawans; the early Sith and fallen Knights had to be ejected because they would no longer change.

>> No.12156011

>>12155890
> My opinion is that the Jedi exiled a splinter faction rather than dealing with its views.

The (pre)Sith had just lost a very bloody war (that they had started) and the Republic didn't want them around. So the Jedi exiled them. They didn't exile them just because of their views, they exiled them because they had killed people.

> They demonized the Dark Side instead of either integrating it, or exterminating it.

1. Why would they want to integrate it? Their main experience with it so far was a bloody civil war that resulted in a great deal of unnecessary death, a war that was started because the dark siders who started it were absolutely self serving. They had no reason to want to integrate it, they had not seen anything good about it that they would want to keep.

And exterminate it? You can't exterminate the dark side any more than you can exterminate selfishness. Thus, you can only deal with it when it crops up.

>> No.12156016

>>12156006
In point of fact, even Obi-Wan Kenobi (yes, THAT Kenobi) had some problematic anger issues. Yes, the Jedi who was perhaps the pinnacle of the Order (short of, say, Yoda) in "being a Jedi" had anger issues as a kid. He grew out of them.

>> No.12156020

>>12156006
This is what I mean, though. They learn from their enemies that "whatever they were researching was really fucking bad, stay away from it!" Passion is bad, love is bad, hate is bad, intense feeling of any kind is bad! Except dutiful self-sacrifice that eventually morphs into insane pride and haughtiness.

Learning not to investigate something doesn't constitute learning about it.

>> No.12156035

>>12155995
> You don't give both sides of an argument laser swords and let them duke it out.

That was the proto-Sith philosophy in action. That's what it led to. That's why the Jedi didn't want to keep it. They didn't fight some trial by combat, it was a bloody civil war that the proto-Sith started out of a desire for absolute control over the entire Republic.

>> No.12156036

>>12155995
Of course they tried to keep people away from the dark side. That's because it's a fucking cancerous blight on the harmony of the Force, royally screws people over, corrupts its users until they're evil pricks bent on galactic conquest/extermination/general purging, and is a quick, seductive and easy path to power on top of that. It's BAD. Evil. If you play with fire, you're going to get burned.

And seriously, captcha. You're giving me phrases in fucking RUSSIAN now?

>> No.12156048

>>12156020
Love is not bad.

Attachment is the problem, particularly when combined with passion. In point of fact, there's nothing in the Jedi Code that prevents a Jedi from going to a whorehouse and getting laid by a bunch of Twi'leks. As long as he's not attached, it's technically okay. It might draw a disapproving eye from some quarters, but nobody's going to stop them.

>> No.12156052

>>12156011
Regardless of their intentions with the exile, a war against an ideological opponent is an opportunity to learn about that ideology. They passed up this opportunity except when it came to codifying ignorance. In the end, if you ask me, this just creates more serious Dark Side adepts because the Jedi don't fully understand them or their power.

>Why would they want to integrate it?

How can you know until you understand it? By integrate, I didn't mean adopt their beliefs wholesale. Or even adopt any of their beliefs at all. Just to understand it as they do.

You can't exterminate the Dark Side, especialy if I'm right and it's just the natural psychic mirroring of a healthy human emotion, selfishness, and only dangerous in huge doses. But if you truly disagreed with it and considered it totally evil, shouldn't you wipe out its adherents? Or at least imprison them? Rather than loosing them on the galaxy.

>> No.12156062

>>12156020
> Learning not to investigate something doesn't constitute learning about it.

It's not that they're rejecting investigating it, it's that they're rejecting letting it control them. That was the Sith philosophy, say yes to all your desires. When that philosophy led to its followers starting a civil war that got a lot of innocent people killed simply to advance the power of a select few, they decided "hey, maybe that philosophy leads to wars and unnecessary death" and as a result decided that some self control was a good thing.

A rather reasonable reaction, all things considered.

>> No.12156064

>>12156052
It's dangerous no matter how small the dose. Yoda warned Luke against it in ESB for a reason - it's a quick, easy and seductive path to power, but it will ultimately consume the user. It's the whole slippery slope thing.

>> No.12156072

>>12156035
Again, because 99.99% of even 100% of fascists have been douchebags, doesn't mean fascism is necessarily wrong. I see the early Sith/Jedi conflicts as more political than philosophical/spiritual.

>>12156036
I disagree, I guess. "DARK = BAD!!!!!! LIGHT = GOOD!!!!!!!!" just doesn't make an interesting setting, in my book, and I think there is plenty of contradicting evidence in the EU.

>>12156048
This is sort of semantics. You're going to get in shit if you do that. You're going to get in shit from Yoda if you're a Padawan who falls in love. He's going to call you in front of the only authority you ever knew, virtual gods among men, and berate you, heavily implying that you are on a treacherous path. There's a reason Jedi are such stuffy cocksuckers. You don't need to crack the whip when the fear of it is second nature.

>> No.12156084

>>12156052
> How can you know until you understand it? By integrate, I didn't mean adopt their beliefs wholesale. Or even adopt any of their beliefs at all. Just to understand it as they do.

The proto-Sith demonstrated quite dramatically what their philosophy lead to, and that was what the Jedi cared about. It lead to a great deal of pointless death, pain, and suffering, and the Jedi wished to avoid that.

And it's not like the proto-Sith were exactly secretive about their philosophy. They openly preached it, and continued to do so all through the war in an attempt to win converts. The Jedi heard their arguments, saw their actions, and ultimately decided that they wanted nothing to do with it.

>> No.12156085

>>12156062
So don't let it control you. People turn veiny and get yellow eyes when they.. do what? What's the exact process? In twenty five thousand years of Republic society we still have never run a controlled experiment?

The Jedi are an amoral priestly caste propped up by a dubiously moral ideology. They have a vested interest in stifling all talk of the "Dark" Side and its intricacies.

>>12156064
Yoda is a five hundred year old aristocrat of a galactic empire. He is one of the most powerful men in the entire galaxy. Of course he's going to tell Luke, the Chosen One (or whatever), to reinvigorate his ailing philosophy. If only to spite the far more capable and wily Sidious.

>> No.12156099

>>12156084
And fascists, tyrants and authoritarians have demonstrated 100% of the time that they are dicks. But dudes like Hobbes and many others that they are still far superior to democracies.

The Sith are dicks but they only embody (in my opinion) an extreme version of ambition and individualism. They probably don't fully understand it themselves, or only rare ones do, like Darth Traya.

>> No.12156100

>>12156072
> Again, because 99.99% of even 100% of fascists have been douchebags, doesn't mean fascism is necessarily wrong.

It does, however, mean that it has a terrible track record, that reflects rather poorly on the philosophy itself. What was the saying? Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, or something like that? I think that's rather applicable here. If a philosophy, whenever it is put into practice, results in a terrible war and genocide, as is the case with the Sith philosophy, is it really that surprising that others aren't going to be rushing to embrace it?

>> No.12156103

>>12156020
No no, Passion and love are not bad, OBSESSION is bad. The Jedi don't want to create LN husks that are completely detached from society. The Council discourages love and passion because they fear it can turn into discontent, envy, regret, and anger, but love and passion are ever present in the work they do. The Jedi simply don't define what is bad and what is good specifically not only because they're cryptic by nature, but because they believe that the individual should find the "Truth" on his own; similar to how Tibetan monks watch their masters and try to derive the true meaning behind their master's conduct on their own.

Passion is the driving force that compels to do the extra mile, the extra bit of sacrifice and service; passion is the fuel that powers the determination for the pursuit of justice and order. Love is what connects them to their fellow man and is what ultimately reminds them what they are striving to protect- love is what allows them to empathize, to show mercy, and to forgive.

>> No.12156116

>>12156072
There WAS contradictory evidence. Lucas made sure that stopped getting mention (and even forced the authors to turn the Vergere character into a Sith to make sure the wrongness of it was clear) and stated outright that the Jedi know what they're talking about. Dark side is bad. Light side is good.

Also, Obi-Wan fell in love with a fellow apprentice. Yoda didn't lambast him or anything, he just offered his advice on what to do. He explicitly didn't go to the Council about it, either.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Siri_Tachi

This chick (Kenobi has good taste, I guess). Plus Yoda knew about Anakin and Padme, or at least suspected (listen to his queries and gentle prodding in RotS when Anakin is seeking counsel, and it's been commented more than once that even the younglings of the Temple know where Anakin spends most of his free time), yet chose not to do anything about it.

>> No.12156124

>>12156085
> In twenty five thousand years of Republic society we still have never run a controlled experiment?

Because the force is extremely rare. The Republic doesn't research the force a whole lot because it's an issue the comes up every few THOUSAND years. Not exactly a common occurrence, so no one in the Republic really wants to bother. The Jedi continue to do so, and they're not exactly secretive about their findings, but there is little interest in the force within the Republic at large. Most consider it a fairy tale, that's how rare it is.

>> No.12156125

>Selfishness is bad, paladins good

This faggotry amuses Darth Rand.

>> No.12156129

>>12156103
Yes, and there are more moderate approaches to Sith teachings as well, even in spite of its suppression. That more moderate approach to passion (a good as well as a bad thing) is exactly what I want. Just like Kreia is a better Sith Lord than Bane or Sidious. When either side tends toward moderation is becomes more reasonable. It is not a natural dichotomy.

The problem is that the dichotomous view of both ideologies is what leads to moderate Jedis being overshadowed by dipshit bureaucrats like Yoda, and nutjobs like Bane destroying Revan's holocrons.

>> No.12156138

>>12156116
Yeah well, I know Lucas outranks me in this but Lucas is a fucking idiot. I prefer Avellone's approach to Forceology.

And Obi-Wan was fucking Obi-Wan, man. An eight year old apprentice is still going to get in shit.

>>12156124
And yet when Sidious was in power for six minutes he managed to turn the Force into a Swiss army knife. It's obviously exploitable and predictable by science.

>> No.12156153

>>12156129

> Yes, and there are more moderate approaches to Sith teachings as well, even in spite of its suppression.

Except that they aren't Sith. The fact that they are moderate is itself a break from Sith philosophy. So essentially the only time Sith philosophy is any good is when it is actually something else entirely.

The Jensaarai were an example of some of those moderate teachings, and in the end their biggest enemies were the Sith, not the Jedi. They ended up getting along pretty well with the Jedi.

>> No.12156158

>>12156125
Oh boy, another Objectivist who doesn't know what Objectivism is!

>> No.12156170

>>12156138
> And yet when Sidious was in power for six minutes he managed to turn the Force into a Swiss army knife. It's obviously exploitable and predictable by science.

Except that Sidious was one of the worst things that happened to the advancement of knowledge about the force. He killed one of the greatest healers who ever lived before he had a chance to pass on any of that knowledge. And why? Because he didn't care about it. He just wanted to get into power a little bit sooner and was willing to let all of that knowledge go down the drain to do it. Then, he wiped out most of the Jedi, some of the only experts on the subject, further purging a large amount of the galaxy's knowledge of the force. He then either killed or drafted every force user he could find, further preventing any advancement beyond what he personally wanted.

>> No.12156171

>>12156138
Sidious is a mere baby compared to the Sith Lords of old. I highly doubt their holocrons were destroyed, it was literally the power to influence a galaxy and men are weak when faced with such power. It's likely that they're being kept in a super seekwet archive, but God help whomever lives in the age when they're found.

>> No.12156193

>>12156129
> even in spite of its suppression

Um, the Jedi don't exactly oppress the moderates. They let them develop in peace. The reason the Jedi fight the Sith is because the Sith attacked them first. Generally the Jedi care as long as people aren't trying to hurt other people.

>> No.12156195

>>12156153
>Except that they aren't Sith. The fact that they are moderate is itself a break from Sith philosophy.

We keep retreading this. Revan was a Sith and he had more moderate views than, say, Sidious. Kreia was a Sith and had more moderate views than.. everyone else. Sith is a conventional definition. It does not simply mean "EVIL", because then I would have been arguing this whole time that "EVIL IS NOT NECESSARILY EVIL". I have been trying to argue that there is a kernel of truth to Sith teachings that gets warped into "THE SITH" as a monolithic corporate entity of evil, just like there is a kernel of truth to Jedi teachings that gets warped into their monolithic corporate institution of aristocratic lightsaber-wielding fops.

I will again say that yes, the Sith are dicks. Just like the Jedi are worthless pansies. The Republic should exterminate them all and start over.

>> No.12156214

>>12156170
>Except that Sidious was one of the worst things that happened to the advancement of knowledge about the force.

I disagree. For all Kreia's philosophizin', Sidious was one of the first to truly demystify the Force and turn it into a method of training warriors or spies instead of a religion. That alone has many benefits, in spite of whatever Sidious might have done that negatively affected this goal.

Good with the bad, as I keep saying.

>>12156171
Bane learned from Revan's holocrons and destroyed them. Because he is a dumb fag.

>>12156193
Sort of, because it would be against their public image to wantonly suppress some of the nicer dudes. And post-BBY, the Jedi were a lot cooler about things in general. At least until the Dynasty of Skywalker was established, then it was back to business as usual.

>> No.12156215

>>12156138
Yeah, Lucas is a senile old moron. I still prefer it, because Star Wars is (to me) an epic fantasy tale of good vs evil. If I want shades of grey, I'll use a different setting.

Actually, apprentices did occasionally get those hormonal urges in the Temple. It was tolerated, and they more or less all grew out of it (though the jokes often levied at them by friends and fellow apprentices didn't... usually because, like most adolescents, the ones in question were making fools of themselves).

>>12156153
Actually, Luke had to spend years fixing up the wrong parts of Jensaarai philosophy.

>>12156171
Sidious was literally the single most powerful Sith Lord (and dark side wielder in general) in all of history, past present and future.

>> No.12156217

>>12156195
>Kreia was a Sith and had more moderate views than.. everyone else.

>Kreia
>Moderate views

>I WANT TO KILL THE FORCE Kreia
>moderate views

>> No.12156239

>>12156217
She wasn't a tyrant, she just really liked the Will to Power and saw the Force as a detriment to its practice. I agree with her.

Sidious on the other hand was more "I was born a wizard and you weren't, now everyone suck my balls". It's hard to have a level playing field of healthy competition and culture when some people are just born demigods.

>> No.12156252

'No! Try not! Do, or do not. There is no try'
'Only a sith deals in absolutes'

>> No.12156261

>>12156252
>semi-profound monkish gibberish
>everyone continue bowing to me and giving me unquestioning military authority

>> No.12156269

>>12156217
Remember how whenever you did something that wasn't totally neutral she'd lecture you on how big of an idiot you were?

>> No.12156272

>I will again say that yes, the Sith are dicks. Just like the Jedi are worthless pansies. The Republic should exterminate them all and start over.

No, they are not. As you say, not all Sith are evil, most are simply self-serving, but the fact that they devote themselves to the pursuit of martial prowess cannot be ignored. The Jedi are vanguards of order and balance, but lately, their numbers have been too few to have any real impact; furthermore, their teachings are invaluable in the search for one's self. To exterminate either one or both and lose advanced spiritual and martial knowledge that has been toiled over for thousands of years is asinine; very akin to barbecuing all books and relearning everything from scratch because they upset you.

>> No.12156277

You know, I was replaying Jedi Outcast recently, and I can't help but feel sorry for all the stormtroopers that get killed. I mean, once you get the lightsaber and force powers, they really don't stand a chance. Plus they always seem to die in awfully horrific ways for simple mooks, especially once I get level 3 force grip. I really do feel bad for them as I lift them off the ground and smash them into walls, while simultaneously crushing their windpipe, or casually flinging them to their to doom into an electrified pit. Those guys have it rough, I tell ya.

>> No.12156278

>>12156215
>I still prefer it, because Star Wars is (to me) an epic fantasy tale of good vs evil. If I want shades of grey, I'll use a different setting.

Have you ever watched the Clone Wars, or seen anything set during it? I don't know how anyone can see that shit as straightforward good vs. evil. The Jedi are the most arrogant aristocratic motherfuckers I've ever seen. Not to mention the armies of brainwashed slave soldiers trained since infancy to be not only fanatically loyal, but bootlicking little bitches to the Jedi on deck.

>> No.12156282

>>12156195
> Revan was a Sith and he had more moderate views than, say, Sidious.

Revan wasn't a Sith for very long, and did his best work when he wasn't. He was still a Jedi during the Mandalorian War, albeit one who wasn't following the council's orders. He still held to the Jedi philosophy of service to everyone as opposed to service purely to the self. When he came as close as he ever did to actually being a Sith, his main accomplishment was allowing Malak to gain power, overall a terrible thing for the galaxy.

> Kreia was a Sith and had more moderate views than.. everyone else.

Kreia wanted to see the death of the force, and was willing to kill everyone who got in her way to do it. That isn't exactly a moderate view, it's pretty damn extreme, just way off in its own corner. She worked with the Sith because the Jedi don't like the idea of simply killing whoever gets between you and what you want, but in the end if you'll recall she didn't really fit in with the Sith either, she outright mocked their beliefs.

>> No.12156283

>>12156269
Before or after she revealed herself as a Sith Lord who wanted to destroy the Force?

>> No.12156287

>>12156277
been playing the force unleashed

Fuckers are getting thrown sky high at the toss of a hand.

>> No.12156298

>>12156272
>The Jedi are vanguards of order and balance

In an ailing bureaucratic tower of shit? And in exchange for massive favor by the populace? And at the cost of stifling cultural and philosophical development? Fuck the Jedi.

To separate the cruft from the kernel of truth in Jedi/Sith philosophy is akin to trying to discern the religion from the philosophy in Buddhism. Keep the books (holocrons), burn the scholars (Jedi). Hire the Corellian Schopenhauer and do away with the religion.

>> No.12156318

>>12156278
I've seen and read most of the Clone Wars era stuff.

The Jedi were making the best of a bad situation as far as commanding the Clone Army is concerned. They knew it was a bad idea, but they had no choice in the matter (and all the while, Palpatine was in the background going JUST AS PLANNED in between his cackles). There was the issue of pride (Yoda talks about it in AotC, how some Jedi are too sure of themselves), too.

The prequels and the prequel-era in general was fucked up anyway, though (with some exceptions), so I'm not going to waste my breath defending the abortion of common sense that seized Lucas.

>> No.12156334

>>12156282
>Revan wasn't a Sith for very long, and did his best work when he wasn't. He was still a Jedi during the Mandalorian War,

This is like arguing what country the inventor of the telephone is from. At the end of the day he was a powerful Force user using his strength in defiance of the Jedi Council in the service of his country, and eventually conquering it and potentially ushering a new vibrant period of cultural development in the stale Republic. In my opinion his "best work", from society's perspective, was when he was an unabashed Sith - using his power to disregard cultural norms and the authority of an ailing social order so he could galvanize resistance against a greater threat and ensure the true safety and prosperity of the Republic.

>That isn't exactly a moderate view

In my opinion she held the most moderate view of all - destroy the imbalancing factor in galactic politics and cultural development. Let people be people, develop of their own accord, without having to worry about the destabilizing element of born sorcerers and their stereotyped religious squabbles.

>> No.12156342

>>12156318

They really did make the best that they could. They pioneered giving the clones names (and/or allowing them to choose names). Yoda spent a good five minutes or so of that Clone Wars episode telling the clones that they were all individuals, each seperate and distinct within the Force. That was when the clones were the ones who didn't believe in themselves, too.

>> No.12156351

>>12156278
> The Jedi are the most arrogant aristocratic motherfuckers I've ever seen.

Really? This is /40k/ after all. I don't think you can beat the actual aristocrats of that setting for sheer arrogance.

> Not to mention the armies of brainwashed slave soldiers trained since infancy to be not only fanatically loyal, but bootlicking little bitches to the Jedi on deck.

Which, if you'll recall, was not a Jedi idea anyway. The entire clone army was a plot by Palpatine from the get go. They command the clones because they're what they have on hand to fight the war. And even then some of the Jedi outright refused to use clones and used their own militias instead. You seem to be purposefully looking for evidence to fight your predetermined conclusion that the Jedi are evil.

>> No.12156366

>>12156351
I don't think the Jedi are evil, I think they are fags. I think the same of the Sith. I never said the Jedi wanted to lead the Clones, but they do, and usually it's a pretty easy fit. Why? Because the Jedi are a priestly caste and warrior elite. They lead an army of slaves as comfortably as a French knight would lead an army of feudal peasants as chaff. There is sympathy there, but no respect.

>> No.12156368

>is akin to trying to discern the religion from the philosophy in Buddhism.

I remember when Buddha said: "Just shut the fuck up and believe my absolute truths. Because they are true. And if there were anything for you but to just believe them, I would have told you so."

But of course, a bunch of almost atheist 19th century european intellectual afraid that the church will get them are correct when they write that Buddhism is totally not a faith. Not a faith at all. We're not trying to make a totally unrelated point against the Church here, no sir. Not at all.

And there's no Pholosophy in Star Wars. It's a rather bad Space Opera with decent effects.

>> No.12156409

>>12156334
> This is like arguing what country the inventor of the telephone is from.

No, it isn't, because you ignored the rest of the argument. The reason he was still a Jedi then was because he was still following the Jedi philosophy of using his abilities to serve everyone, whereas if he was actually a Sith he wouldn't entertain such notions. The defining feature of the Sith is their absolute selfishness.

>> No.12156434

>>12156409
Right but it's meaningless. He "followed the Jedi philosophies" until he didn't, and there's no real watershed for that. One could argue that a Jedi credo is obedience to the Council. He broke that right away. Hell, he broke plenty of minor rules and customs before even rising to prominence.

My point was that there are no "Jedi" to follow. He was always being Revan, because that's all he could be. What affiliation he claimed or others claimed for him is not relevant. His actions are, and in those he followed his own judgment.

The Universe does not tidily define ideologies for us to follow, we do that ourselves. Everyone is ultimately an ecclectic, especially someone as intelligent as Revan. There is no set point at which he flipped from JEDI to SITH mode.

>> No.12156437

>>12156366
You do realize that no matter how much you repeat Nietzsche, that won't change the fact that within the context of the setting you're actually wrong. The Jedi weren't comfortable with the clones as slaves. If you'd actually read any of the material on the interaction between the two you'd know they were trying to treat the clones as people. Of course, that wouldn't fit in to your preexisting belief, so it gets ignored.

>> No.12156463

>>12156437
And you realize that I can sperg all I want about Star Wars even if Lucas comes to my door and tells me Yoda is canonically a rad dude and the ultimate bro? I obviously have my own take on the setting. This isn't a real argument because it's about something that's impermanent by nature, a shifting fictional setting collaboratively written by hundreds of authors.

And yes, some material portrays that, other material does not portray it so heavily. I have read plenty of the material and my opinion is that the Jedi are fags.

My beliefs exist, to me, but I don't know how something can pre-exist so I can't really respond to that.

>> No.12156466

>>12156437
This is accurate. Aayla Secura, for example, claimed that the clones from the 501st that she fought alongside were 'without doubt the bravest men I have ever met' and made a point of meeting them and seeing them offworld personally when they were reassigned.

>> No.12156480

>>12156434
> One could argue that a Jedi credo is obedience to the Council.

It's not essential to being a Jedi. After all, there were still Jedi when there wasn't even a council to obey, so the council and its orders are not the defining feature of a Jedi. Ultimately, what makes a Jedi is what you mentioned earlier, a philosophy that when boiled down to the basics is "serve everyone." Similarly, the defining feature of a Sith is a philosophy that, when boiled down to the basics is "serve only yourself." Revan spent most of his time doing the former.

It broke down when he turned around and started waging a war that ultimately proved counterproductive. He got impatient. Rushed to take control the fast way, and in doing so ended up serving his own desire to have that power sooner rather than serving everyone by taking a less violent approach. In that way, he eventually drifted toward the Sith. However, he turned back after Malak attempt to overthrow him, got his memory wiped, experienced his own handiwork from the other side, then regained his identity.

>> No.12156502

>>12156480
In my opinion Revan took the best possible course of action. He tried and nearly succeeded where virtually anyone else would have instantly failed. The Jedi boarding action and Malak's treachery were just a stroke of bad luck. There is no lesson to be learned there.

What he did was also absolutely necessary, since the Republic could NOT be given time to rebuild, a conflict with the Jedi could absolutely not be afforded, and the SIth Empire was looming like a motherfucker. He did what he had to do. And, again in my opinion, he did it as a powerful Force user, not a Sith or a Jedi.

>> No.12156507

>>12156334
>in my opinion force is shit since religion is shit
>religion stiffing philosophy

Well then sir, I hope you wont mind if I say you're fantastically bigoted; you think religion always means being dumb and fail to realize that spiritual men are synonymous with wise men. Have you ever attended a theology class? It's brilliant, on par with philosophy itself. Religious men saved classical knowledge in the dark ages, and theology was all the rage during the renaissance. Nearly all outstanding pieces of art and architecture from the Pyramids, to the Statue of Zeus, to the Haiga Sophia and the Sistine Chapel are influence by religion.

>> No.12156512

>>12156463
> My beliefs exist, to me, but I don't know how something can pre-exist so I can't really respond to that.

I mean that they existed before you came into contact with evidence. My point is that you formed your opinion before actually looking at the setting.

Your claim that the Jedi were comfortable leading slaves is an example of that. It is something that you only claim because it fits into your own beliefs well, not because of the actual evidence. In actuality the Jedi were not at all comfortable with the idea of the clones as slaves.

>> No.12156522

>>12156507
Dogma stifles radical thought. Dogma comes from a vested interest in something being true. The chief function of religion is not truth but satisfying a psychological need for permanence, reliability and authority in a person's life.

The Pyramids and Hagia Sophia were built for pride, religion was just the vehicle. As I keep saying in this thread, you have to take the good with the bad. Personally I think thousands of years worth of hamfisted rationalizing and navel-gazing theology to find the most pleasant sounding justification of our existence is counterproductive and ultimately more destructive than "depressing realism". Buddhism has one philosophical truth buried under thousands of years of horseshit.

>> No.12156534

>>12156512
They're comfortable ENOUGH, is my point. Someone following the Jedi religion, the one they never shut the fuck up about when they're wanking all over your face about how cool they are and how they totally deserve to order you around, should not be even remotely comfortable greeting a platoon of prepubescent children who spend all day every day in military drills preparing to fight a war they know nothing about.

>> No.12156552

>>12156502
> The Jedi boarding action and Malak's treachery were just a stroke of bad luck.

No, they were the direct result of their own philosophies, both of which Revan knew and should have anticipated. The Jedi did fight their way to him, meaning he wasn't exactly just letting them get to him, however Malak's betrayal was an out and out blunder on Revan's part. He really should have seen it coming and not had Malak in a position of power. But again, his impatience to have the Republic under his control led him to underestimate the full extent of that danger. He believe that he needed all the help he could get. However, the only reason he was in that position, fighting the Republic in an all out war, was because he had began to set aside the Jedi's core principle of serving everyone.

The was a lesson to be learned. Don't trust people who are absolutely self serving. Don't give them the opportunity to stab you in the back, because if they think it will help them they will. The lesson to be learned is that the Sith philosophy that Malak was following when he betrayed Revan is the reason we can't have nice things. People end up ruining them in all the back stabbing.

>> No.12156561

>>12156534
They were comfortable enough to have NO CHOICE but to use them despite the deep misgivings they had, sure, particularly when a number of Jedi outright refused to make use of the clones. To take that and turn it into what you've done is... rather extreme.

>> No.12156567

>>12156125
She even looks like Ventress with a wig.

>> No.12156589

>>12156552
I disagree, I guess. He overestimated Malak's intelligence and underestimated his lust for power. That's not some truism about BEIN SITH ALWAYS MAKE U WANT POWER SO MUCH!! It's just "man, you'd think this guy would be smart enough not to fire on my bridge during a fucking battle". Otherwise he was training Malak because he needed a worthy successor should he have a heart attack or fall off a cliff or should the Jedi assassinate him. You roll the die and sometimes you lose.

>Don't trust people who are absolutely self serving.

You can trust them to be untrustworthy. That's superior to the way the Jedi Council trusts idiots like Anakin.

>Don't give them the opportunity to stab you in the back

Totally agreed, but Revan fucked up here. Everyone makes mistakes. Additionally, Malak made a pretty goddamn good Sith, so maybe the philosophy worked anyway. He saw his chance, took it, and succeeded his master. If Revan couldn't stop this from happening he was weak anyway, or so it goes.

But yes I agree the Rule of Two is shortsighed, just as "help everyone ever always" is shortsighed.

>>12156561
The Jedi who outright refused are the ones I support. Again I do not see "the Jedi" as a concrete group. The more moderate ones are more moderate, so I find them and their principles more agreeable.

>> No.12156593

>>12156534
> Someone following the Jedi religion, the one they never shut the fuck up about when they're wanking all over your face about how cool they are and how they totally deserve to order you around, should not be even remotely comfortable greeting a platoon of prepubescent children who spend all day every day in military drills preparing to fight a war they know nothing about.

Except they aren't comfortable with it, they just manage their discomfort because there is a war on and people will die if they don't. They're trying to deal with a terrible situation as best they're able to. Whenever they can they are portrayed as talking to the clones and trying both treat them as human beings and encourage others to do the same.

And some simply do refuse to use clones. Master Koda, for example.

>> No.12156599

>>12156589
>shortsighted*

>> No.12156610

>>12156593
That's fine and all. Like I said, they sympathize with the clones, they "do what they can", but that's how bad shit starts. Slippery slope and all. Twenty five thousand years of compromising when it comes to "unpleasant situations" like massive slave armies will give you a hopelessly corrupt bureaucratic elite.

>> No.12156617

>>12156589
> That's superior to the way the Jedi Council trusts idiots like Anakin.

Except if you'll recall they didn't really trust him. That was a pretty big plot point. They need him because there is a war on, but a lot of Anakin's rise is because of Palpatine. Yoda and Windu were rather resistant when it came to giving Anakin more power, preferring to trust that to Obi-wan.

>> No.12156657

>>12156617
My point was just that if there is ever a situation where you are regularly training people powerful enough to become Darth Vader should they ever decide to cavort with a Palpatine-esque fellow, in their twenties no less, you're asking for trouble.

The precaution should be proportionate to the risk. You are training demigods and a bunch of them keep turning into evil demigods. Wake the fuck up, Yoda.

>> No.12156677

>>12156610
You'd prefer that they let people that they could have helped die, then (because that was the choice they faced - go along with Palpatine's orders or basically let innocent people die through their own inaction).

>> No.12156678

>>12156589
> You can trust them to be untrustworthy.

As amusing as that saying is, that's pretty much the same as "they aren't trustworthy, so don't trust them." It's a statement that means that they are entirely willing to stab you in the back to advance their own position.

Ultimately, leaving someone like that in power was a blunder. It wasn't chance that bit him in the ass. Revan was smart, but he was still human, and that was a big mistake on his part. He should have seen that Malak wasn't a worthy successor, wasn't patient enough to let Revan try to make him one, ad was going to betray him at the first opportunity, no matter how much it was detrimental to Revan's goal. Because Malak didn't give a rat's ass about Revan's goal, he just wanted power.

>> No.12156686

>>12156677
Yes.

>Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.

If you're going to act like you're hot shit for your ideals, then be an actual idealist. The current crisis is always the most dire crisis.

>> No.12156695

>>12156678
I agree, yeah. I think the Rule of Two is, again, a manifestation of something valid (meritocracy/Mandate of Heaven/whatever) but in a twisted sense. It's a dumb fucking rule that glorifies power and treachery instead of just seeing ruthless competition as beneficial.

>> No.12156705

>>12156657
> You are training demigods and a bunch of them keep turning into evil demigods. Wake the fuck up, Yoda.

You act like it's a regular thing, that happens all the time. It doesn't. There hadn't been a serious incident with dark siders from many centuries until the prequel trilogy rolled around.

And you're acting as if they a. could have know Palpatine was as terrible as he was and b.) they could have told Palpatine what to do. He was the Chancellor, had a super-majority at his back, and emergency powers.

>> No.12156715

>>12156705
I'm not blaming them for what happened, I'm just lamenting that no one is smart enough to realize the Force and its adepts are constantly causing problems throughout the history of the galaxy. A couple centuries or even millennia without conflict are irrelevant. The cracks in the system are still there. That the situation can explode so violently and seemingly out of nowhere (after centuries of peace) is an indication of how unpredictable Force users can be.

>> No.12156728

>>12156695
> valid

You're still misusing that word.

You can call it "good" or "bad" if you want, we've long since broken down into doing that, but don't pretend that validity has anything to do with this.

> instead of just seeing ruthless competition as beneficial.

Except the Sith DO see ruthless competition as beneficial. And it results in them constantly creating societies in which people compete to grab power in utterly ruthless ways. Those ways include betraying each other to usurp power.

>> No.12156749

>>12156728
>You can call it "good" or "bad" if you want, we've long since broken down into doing that, but don't pretend that validity has anything to do with this.

..Dunno what you mean by this. By valid, I meant good, and by good I meant "good for the galaxy". We're working within a pretty well-established value framework here - galaxy good, inhabitants good. What is good for them is good. What is efficient and effective at promoting this good is "valid" as a political theory, in the sense that a capitalist finds free markets to be a "valid" method of increasing prosperity.

>Except the Sith

You mean the guys I've confirmed I have no special attachment to and who I consider a loose affiliation of mostly incorrect people who just happen to be the unfortunate manifestation of an otherwise underrepresented (and valid~~) ideology? Okay. Like I said, Rule of Two, bad idea. Meritocracy and competition, good ideas.

>> No.12156766

>>12155621


Agreed. The light side gives life, the dark side is death. These two cycles is just a naturally occurring part of nature and the two factions are constantly vying off for supremacy. If anything, they are just parts of a greater whole and focusing on only one while denouncing the other half tantamounts to nothing more than a perversion of a naturally occurring cycle of the universe.

It would be awesome if there was some sort of a "gray" force faction where they attempt to bring balance to the force to its "natural" serene state of life and death, purity and corruption, independence and cooperation.

>> No.12156769

>>12156715
> I'm just lamenting that no one is smart enough to realize the Force and its adepts are constantly causing problems throughout the history of the galaxy.

The Jedi do realize that. Which is why they discourage the use of the dark side and train their students not to tap into it. Because dark side force users have pretty much always been the source of those problems.

The force and dark side exist, the Jedi have no apparent way to change that, so they do what they can to mitigate the damage and maybe actually do some good while they're at it.

>> No.12156780

>>12156766
> It would be awesome if there was some sort of a "gray" force faction where they attempt to bring balance to the force to its "natural" serene state of life and death, purity and corruption, independence and cooperation.

Problem: The Sith keep killing them.

>> No.12156799

>>12156749
> Dunno what you mean by this.

In a discussion of philosophy "validity" carries baggage. Particularly that of logical validity. Which is separate from "good" and "evil." If you mean to say "good," or "goo for the galaxy," then say those things. Don't misuse the term validity. It creates the illusion of logical support for your position when really you have not established that.

>> No.12156800

>>12156769
The fact that it keeps happening means you need to step in and do more shit to prevent it. For example, the Republic needs to clamp down on Force users and persecute them until they understand how it works.

>> No.12156814

>>12156799
Again this isn't a rigorous philosophical debate or anything. I can say "I think meritocracy is a valid method of governance" without qualifying it with citations or having a Socratic dialogue on /tg/ while I pretend to do my job.

>> No.12156837

>>12156780

Which is why it would make more sense if the chosen one who was prophesied to bring balance to the force should be a "gray" instead of light-side user. Just think about the concept of yin and yang. The two sides are just parts of the greater whole. The conflict stems from the fact that both factions are attempting to pervert the natural cycle of the universe by making one part more dominant than the other.

If anything, the constant battles between the Jedi and Sith reminds us that the force is just balancing itself out to its natural state with disastrous consequences to the inhabitants of the galaxy - the death of billions. This is where the "Gray" force users should step in to maintain peace in the galaxy and put the force back in its natural state.

>> No.12156841

>>12156800
> The fact that it keeps happening means you need to step in and do more shit to prevent it.

"Keeps happening" with many centuries separating them. Over that amount of time apathy kicks in. No one wants to be the one to start, so the only people who end up caring during the lull between conflicts are the Jedi. And they have been keeping up research, the force is just really freaking hard to understand.

> For example, the Republic needs to clamp down on Force users and persecute them until they understand how it works.

People don't care during the lull, and immediately during and after the conflict, you really think that's going to be viable in a representative government? During the conflict the Jedi are the ones with the know how and experience dealing with the force, so you can't just lock them all up and start experimenting on them. And afterward, they're both war heroes who helped save the Republic, and still the only people who understand the force. They continue to research it, and share their findings when people care enough to ask, so rounding them up to study them isn't even necessary. They study themselves and are happy enough to help out with questions.

>> No.12156843

>>12156766
I'd actually say it's the other way around. The Sith are the chaotic force of creation that vomits out life into reality while the Jedi are the lawful force of stagnation that slowly drains life from the universe.

>> No.12156881

>>12156837
> The two sides are just parts of the greater whole.

Except they aren't. It's the force. Problems arise when you would expect them to even with the force, when a person decides "fuck everyone else, I'll take what I want and kill whoever gets in my way."

>>12156843

The Sith don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to creating. Their main contribution to the galaxy has been pointless, destructive wars that get a lot of people killed and destroy entire worlds. And for what? For the gain of a single individual, who is generally backstabbed by another, who repeats the process, rendering the destruction and conquest largely pointless.

>> No.12156884

>>12156841
>the only people who end up caring during the lull between conflicts are the Jedi.

Except they do nothing, even the ones who have been alive for that entire period and have seen the problems arise before. Yoda himself let Anakin happen. I don't care what he could have done or might have done, Darth Vader was born on his watch. Palpatine I can let slide since that shit all happened in secret, but anyone as powerful as Anakin (and Jedi in general - Darth Fisto would be a huge problem even) needs to either be regulated heavily or shot in the head before the age of maturity.

>the force is just really freaking hard to understand.

Unless you're Palpatine, then you kill all the Jedi in an afternoon and train some really good Force sensitive pilots and fry cooks.

>you really think that's going to be viable in a representative government?

No, since nothing is. That's why I would prefer an Empire. But even then, some powerful Chancellors in the past have managed to exert huge influence and actually accomplish shit, good or bad. Palpatine was one.

>you can't just lock them all up and start experimenting on them.

Yes you can. You need a planet conquered, then for once in your life resist the urge to call the Jedi. Win the war conventionally and experiment on the Jedi.

>only people who understand the force.

Precisely because of this cycle of glorification and idealism.

>They study themselves and are happy enough to help out with questions.

Just like any dogmatic member of a priestly caste would be. It's the priest's job to answer your questions about God. And he even knows which version of the Bible to read from so you get the REAL story.

>> No.12156895

>>12156843
>>12156837
I'm glad some other people have similar views to mine. That's exactly how I see it - the Sith are the violent, self-serving ambition that creates something, and the Jedi are the coddling complacency that rots away at it.

>>12156881
>The Sith don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to creating.

That's because they are just the ultimate expression of egoism, which is dangerous. Egoism at its normal level (ie. among non-Force sensitives) is responsible for creation throughout the galaxy. That's why the Force sucks ass.

>> No.12156901

>>12156843

Which is why the two sides are just part of a greater whole. Peaceful cooperation (think Jedi) brings out stability but to move forward and advance means you have to change and discard the old ways whether through violent means or not (now think Sith). It also doesn't stop there. For example, life and death is just one part where two seemingly polar opposites are just part of a greater whole. Individualism and Cooperation is also another one where both are parts of a greater whole.

Focusing on only the "light-side" or the "dark-side" of the force is nothing more than a perversion of nature and should be treated as such. The battles between the two just mirror the fact that the force is just balancing itself out to its natural state with dire consequences for the whole galaxy. I'm even surprised George Lucas hasn't capitalized on this yet and for the need of neutral (Gray)force users that have mastered both the dark and light side that would end this feud once and for all and bring peace to the galaxy.

>> No.12156914

>>12156895
> the Sith are the violent, self-serving ambition that creates something

(my statement that the Sith don't have a good track record on creating anything)
> That's because they are just the ultimate expression of egoism, which is dangerous.

You just contradicted yourself there. You claim they are the force of creation, yet then turn around and say they aren't because they are radical egoists. Which is it?

>> No.12156920

>>12156901
>I'm even surprised George Lucas hasn't capitalized on this yet

Honestly nothing surprises me more than how little attention this is given in the setting. Maybe one or two authors have tried to do something with it. Lucas seems determined to destroy any subtlety or complexity whatsoever. The good guys are good, the bad guys are bad, the end.

>> No.12156925

>>12156881

It is. Individualism and cooperation is just forms a part of the greater whole. A community cannot function without the individual and the individual cannot function without the community. Think human societies (heck any social animal community) on this one. People are dependent on each other for survival but you still need to think what's best for yourself.

The problems with the Sith you mentioned are exactly the things I'm talking about. Perversions arise because they tend to focus only one part while neglecting the rest. The Sith philosophy has created chaos while Jedi philosophy has created stagnation and weakness. Combined, the two form one great whole.

>> No.12156938

>>12156914
>(my statement that the Sith don't have a good track record on creating anything)

Again this is because the Sith are taking the urge to create and excel to an absolute extreme, to the point that it chokes itself and becomes counterproductive. Too much of a good thing, just like with the Jedi - the Jedi have a bad track record of doing anything whatsoever, because they are the epitome of stale conservativeness.

>Which is it?

Both. That was my whole point. Egoism is not distinct from creation; it is what fuels it. I hate to mention Nietzsche again but his thing was that we create, strive and compete because of a desire to be preeminent. Creation is a byproduct of ambition, which is ultimately self-serving.

>> No.12156945

>>12156884
> Except they do nothing, even the ones who have been alive for that entire period and have seen the problems arise before.

1. They do study the force. The archives are devoted to that. They house a massive amount of collected knowledge regarding the force, produced by the Jedi. You're simply ignoring the actual setting for your own person fan fiction.

2. Even Yoda wasn't alive that long, so you're wrong on both counts.

> Unless you're Palpatine, then you kill all the Jedi in an afternoon and train some really good Force sensitive pilots and fry cooks.

Palpatine won via politicking and rhetoric, not knowledge of the force. If you'll recall he actually lost when it came to the force. And, as I mentioned before, he ended up setting knowledge regarding the force back immensely.

>> No.12156966

>>12156945
>They do study the force. The archives are devoted to that. They house a massive amount of collected knowledge regarding the force, produced by the Jedi.

To no discernable effect whatsoever. A priest collects and preserves and even advances the theology and literature of his religion, but it is all meaningless. Circlejerking, navel-gazing, whatever.

>2. Even Yoda wasn't alive that long, so you're wrong on both counts.

I thought he was 400+? I can't remember the last Sith Lord or Dark Side crisis before Palpatine, but I thought Yoda had experienced it. In any event, he was still old as shit and hopefully read some of those nifty archives they keep, the ones with all the details about the Sith. So he was still inept.

>not knowledge of the force.

He had enough knowledge of it to use it as a tool, which is what I was referring to. The fact that he used it to create soldiers, not warriors, after the establishment of the Empire is a testament to his conception of the Force.

>And, as I mentioned before, he ended up setting knowledge regarding the force back immensely.

And I addressed this as irrelevant. I don't care what the net effect of his reign was. My point is that he proved a few things about the Force that previously had been unimagined. All in a very short time.

>> No.12156983

>>12156884
> Yes you can. You need a planet conquered, then for once in your life resist the urge to call the Jedi. Win the war conventionally and experiment on the Jedi.

Except the Jedi don't get involved when the war can be won conventionally. They only step in when the shit really hits the fan and the Republic really does need them to survive. The times when dark side force users have made serious plays against the Republic have all be examples of that time.

> Just like any dogmatic member of a priestly caste would be. It's the priest's job to answer your questions about God. And he even knows which version of the Bible to read from so you get the REAL story.

Again, you seem to be convinced that Jedi are priests and that their knowledge of the force is purely religious in nature. However, this is simply not true in the context of the setting. The Jedi do have factual information regarding the force, its capabilities, and its history. We know this by virtue of the fact that it is a fictional setting and that we are outside observers who see events as they are. It's not complete, but then again all knowledge is a work in progress.

Your attempts to force the setting to conform to Nietzsche's claims regarding human development are leading you to ignore the actual setting in favor of your own fan fiction.

>> No.12157005

>>12156983
>They only step in when the shit really hits the fan

Debatable. At the very least, once that point has been reached, the Republic and the Jedi have no qualms about shoving thirty Knights on every cruiser in the galaxy ("Jedi Cruisers").

>purely religious in nature.

Just mostly. Confucian scholars are blinded by their institutional origins. They cannot be objective because their philosophy, which should be incidental, has become cultural and spiritual. Same with Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, and anyone else with a remotely well-developed theology.

Any of their philosophical discourse is going to be good essentially by accident. This explains their factual information on the Force (still woefully inadequate and frankly embarrassing given the timeframes).

>> No.12157027

>>12156983
forgot to address

>Your attempts to force the setting to conform to Nietzsche's claims regarding human development are leading you to ignore the actual setting in favor of your own fan fiction.

The Nietzsche stuff is just one aspect of my beliefs about the setting, and I'm really only raising him as a potential source of perspective on the Dark/Light side dichotomy because it matches up so well. The point of this is to make the setting a little more interesting. Frankly if your only interest is in preserving technical canon, then you won when someone posted George Lucas' stance earlier in the thread. I am wrong, he is right. The Jedi are cool dudes.

But from my perspective (which can be summed up as "Fuck off, George Lucas"), it's still fun to debate.

>> No.12157046

>>12156966
> I thought he was 400+? I can't remember the last Sith Lord or Dark Side crisis before Palpatine, but I thought Yoda had experienced it.

No, he had not. The last major dark side crisis before Palpatine was the New Sith War, which was a thousand years before the prequels. Stuff like that doesn't happen very often.

> In any event, he was still old as shit and hopefully read some of those nifty archives they keep, the ones with all the details about the Sith. So he was still inept.

Inept? You're acting as if he should have known that Palpatine was a Sith. The archives wouldn't have told him that. And he did take precautions, like trying not to trust Anakin with too much. The problem was that Palpatine had political maneuvering that the Jedi weren't in a position to block.

> He had enough knowledge of it to use it as a tool, which is what I was referring to. The fact that he used it to create soldiers, not warriors, after the establishment of the Empire is a testament to his conception of the Force.

No, he did not. If you actually were looking at the setting instead of your own fan fiction, you would know that he did found a cult of the dark side to keep the force bound up in mysticism to prevent advancement that he was not comfortable with. And he did bring his own dogmatic beliefs about the force into play, like his own scorn toward the idea of healing with the force.

He didn't use the force as a tool any more than the Jedi did.

>> No.12157056

>>12157027
> Frankly if your only interest is in preserving technical canon

My interest is in not delving into people's own personal fan fiction.

>> No.12157059

>>12157046
>You're acting as if he should have known that Palpatine was a Sith.

no, just anakin

>And he did take precautions

not enough

>to prevent advancement that he was not comfortable with.

right, not because he actually saw it as mystical, but because he didn't want advancement he wasn't comfortable with. like i said.

>he did bring his own dogmatic beliefs about the force into play

still fewer than the jedi

>He didn't use the force as a tool any more than the Jedi did.

except to train force-sensitive soldiers in virtually every field of combat, as well as spies and god knows what else, with little to no regard for the religious sanctity or taboos of the jedi

>> No.12157068

>>12157056
Then don't. Keep apprised of what is strictly canon, ideally using the various wikis, and don't particuipate in speculative debates about fictional settings.

>> No.12157109

> except to train force-sensitive soldiers in virtually every field of combat, as well as spies and god knows what else, with little to no regard for the religious sanctity or taboos of the jedi

Emphasis on fields of combat and only on those. He brought in his own taboos, like those against healing with the force.

> no, just anakin

Really, you're arguing that he should have known all along that Anakin was going to turn to the dark side? That's absurd. Given the information that he had he did try to keep Anakin away from the dark side, but ultimately he's not a god, he can't be everywhere at once. He has an order to run, one in the middle of a war.

> not enough

Hindsight is 20/20. You're approaching this from an angle where you have already judged the Jedi, and are just looking for more things to condemn them on. I'm sorry the actual setting doesn't conform to your fan fiction, but that's just the way it is.

>> No.12157133

>>12157109
>Emphasis on fields of combat and only on those.

Better than nothing. It's a start. Revolutionary ideas usually begin in innocuous places, where the conservative elements of society don't care to suppress them.

>Really, you're arguing that he should have known all along

Nope, just be more realistic. For example, shoot Anakin in the face when he did anything remotely Dark Side-ish. Or just shoot him in the face to begin with. Or don't take him across the galaxy, train him to be a god, and let him personally command armies if you know he might turn evil overnight.

>Hindsight is 20/20.

Twenty five thousand years of various Jedi disciples (of the Council itself) going AWOL and stirring up shit. Time for the Republic to step in and fuck the Jedi up the ass, or for the Jedi to do what needs to be done..

>> No.12157134

>>12157068
> Then don't. Keep apprised of what is strictly canon, ideally using the various wikis, and don't participate in speculative debates about fictional settings.

I've been mainly correcting you when you make errors about the setting. You claim that the Jedi are repressive and try to stifle other views on the force, I point out that's not actually the case. You claim that the Jedi are perfectly comfortable leading slaves, I point out they aren't. The issue here is not that you're speculating, it's that you're making claims that are simply not correct in order to argue for your own interpretation of the setting. One that is ultimately based on errors, and thus is your own fan work that you are attempting to pass off as the actual setting.

>> No.12157171

>>12157134
>I've been mainly correcting you

disagree

>I point out that's not actually the case.

that's just, like, your opinion about jedi, man

>perfectly comfortable leading slaves,

>>12156534 responds to this, which you already said verbatim lol

>that are simply not correct .. One that is ultimately based on errors, and thus is your own fan work

disagree

>> No.12157204

>>12157133
> Better than nothing. It's a start.

Except it was a massive step backwards. The Jedi did train in combat, and ultimately if you'll recall they were able to best Palpatine himself in simple combat.

> Revolutionary ideas usually begin in innocuous places, where the conservative elements of society don't care to suppress them.

It wasn't particularly revolutionary. As I said, the Jedi did train in combat. Palpatine then suppressed a great deal of study into the force himself. You're trying to build him up as a super pragmatist when it comes to the force when really he wasn't, he brought numerous prejudices and dogmatic beliefs regarding the force into the mix.

> For example, shoot Anakin in the face when he did anything remotely Dark Side-ish. Or just shoot him in the face to begin with.

That's some serious metagaming there. you're demanding a level of suspicion that is only reasonable given our outside perspective. Yoda didn't have that. Your demands are simply unreasonable. You're saying he should have simply murdered Anakin the minute he stepped into the temple. Why would he do that? He hadn't done anything wrong at that point.

> Twenty five thousand years of various Jedi disciples (of the Council itself) going AWOL and stirring up shit.

Again, you're acting like it was a constant thing, happening with any degree of frequency. It wasn't. The last serious issue with the dark side was a thousand years in the past at that point. And each time there were similarly massive gaps. If the Republic simply destroyed the Jedi, then imagine what would have happened with, oh say, the Mandaloran War. Without Revan, how much worse would it have gone? How many more people would have died?

>> No.12157211

lol arguing on the internet

>> No.12157219

>>12157171
>>12156534 responds to this, which you already said verbatim lol

And I responded to that post here >>12156593

>> No.12157236

>>12157171
> that's just, like, your opinion about jedi, man

If you mean the entire "the Jedi are stifling other research into the force, only not" that's not just an opinion. Look up the numerous non-Jedi groups of force users. The Jedi are pretty content to let the pursue their own paths, only fighting if another group attacks first. That's not stiffing at all.

>> No.12157247

>>12157204
>Except it was a massive step backwards. The Jedi did train in combat, and ultimately if you'll recall they were able to best Palpatine himself in simple combat.

I.. what? My point was that seeing the Force as such a mundane phenomenon that it was perfectly acceptable to train everyday soldiers in it without giving them advanced religious rhetoric about HARMONY or whatever is a good thing. I don't care about the efficacy of those troops.

>As I said, the Jedi did train in combat.

So did Medieval knights who thought they had divine right to rule and were born different from the peasantry. I prefer soldiers to warriors, thanks.

>You're trying to build him up as a super pragmatist

No, I'm trying to say "look at the novel idea he had that might have eventually led to the Force being used to cut bread instead of deciding the fate of the galaxy over and over again".

>you're demanding a level of suspicion that is only reasonable given

Given how fucking powerful these individuals are. Here's an idea: DON'T TRAIN THEM. They already let the families choose whether to send their children to the Jedi for training, so they can't be that much of a threat on their own as Force sensitive normies. Stop training these people. Stop cultivating mountain-throwing psychos who start galactic wars once a millenium.

>Why would he do that? He hadn't done anything wrong

Because life isn't fair and if this shit exists the alternative is.. well, Darth Vader. Sometimes you have to do ugly things like executing "innocents" because they were born with the capacity to fuck everything up.

>any degree of frequency.

Frequent enough to give me pause. If I were in charge I would have looked at the Republic's official history books and said "wow, I should start a dialogue in the Senate about getting rid of these fucking morons".

>> No.12157250

>>12157211

Worse. It's arguing about Rand, moralfags/amoralfags, and fan fiction on the internet.

>> No.12157252

>>12157204
>imagine what would have happened with

Hindsight, right? Eventually the Force (in my personal fanfiction, coming to stores soon) will be the downfall of galactic society. The Republic's intense reliance on the support of an ailing theocracy is their achilles heel. I'd rather have the Mandalorians topple them and fade away than the Jedi save the day and stunt any potential for serious growth.

>How many more people would have died?

Life is not a neverending utilitarian gambit.

>> No.12157262

>>12157236
>The Jedi are pretty content to let the pursue their own paths

Sort of. They are still the dominant approach to the Force in the galaxy and tend to blanket radical approaches to the Force before they develop very well. It's a slow and steady progress.

Ultimately, tying philosophy to the state as the Jedi do (official Republic patronage, occasional or not) stifles radical thought.

>> No.12157267

>>12157219
And I resp-- wait, do I really need to say this?

>> No.12157289

The Jedi and their Republic are just harmful as the Sith, really.

It's just two radically different factions fighting over galactic dominance. One promotes stagnation, the other promotes social Darwinism.

>> No.12157301

>>12157247
> My point was that seeing the Force as such a mundane phenomenon that it was perfectly acceptable to train everyday soldiers in it without giving them advanced religious rhetoric about HARMONY or whatever is a good thing. I don't care about the efficacy of those troops.

And as I pointed out, Palpatine didn't actually do that. He established a cult of the dark side which brought its own dogma into the mix, some of which he did to control, but some of which (like the stigma against healing) Palpatine actually believed in himself. He trotted out his own rhetoric. He didn't train your vaunted soldiers, only warriors. Stop attributing things that you simply want to see in Palpatine to him and actually brush up on the fluff around him.

> look at the novel idea he had that might have eventually led to the Force being used to cut bread instead of deciding the fate of the galaxy over and over again

Except he didn't actually buy into that. He was all about using the force to decide the fate of the galaxy.

> Stop training these people. Stop cultivating mountain-throwing psychos who start galactic wars once a millenium.

Only several times it hasn't been the Jedi who start the wars, or even people trained by the Jedi. In which case the Jedi are useful for fighting them. No Jedi, no force users on hand for the Republic to call upon when dark siders come calling, so less experience with the force going in, greater losses, and potentially the collapse of the Repulbic, to be replaced by one of the backstabbing Sith Empires that never turn out well.

>> No.12157306

>>12157247

Also, if the Jedi didn't train the force adepts they could, particularly the powerful ones, do you really think that nothing will happen to them? They'll develop their abilities in an uncontrolled setting, with no one to say "by the way, that dark side stuff tends to lead to a whole lot of misery" and thus lead to an increase in dark side users to threaten the Republic. The force, and the dark side, aren't just going to go away.

>> No.12157348

>>12157262
> and tend to blanket radical approaches to the Force before they develop very well.

If it develops in their order, the person is free to make a split. Or they could try to argue in their own favor. There were some seriously unorthodox Jedi who remained within the order and even made some waves. Qui-gon for one. And they only actually go out and stop someone who attacks first. And at that point, it's an issue of self defense.

> Ultimately, tying philosophy to the state as the Jedi do (official Republic patronage, occasional or not) stifles radical thought.

The Jedi usually remain distinct from Republic affairs. It isn't the official state view on the issue. And if the "occasional" part is once every thousand years, during a crisis, I don't see how you can really say it's official in any real sense.

>> No.12157349

>>12157301
>Palpatine

Yes, Palpatine stinks. We have covered this so many times. The Sith stink. It's just that there is a tiny little kernel of truth buried in there, and I think the situation is the same with the Jedi. And he did train soldiers. I mean, the guy from TIE Fighter was just a pilot. He may have trained him to be an Emperor's Hand or whatever, but he was nothing like a Jedi.

>Stop attributing things that you simply want to see

I am not. I am saying "Palpatine training a pilot to be a better pilot with his Force skills and also some kinda spy" is better than "MONK TRAINING MONKS". Why is this so hard to understand? Is that you, George?

>Except he didn't actually buy into that

Never said he did. Just that he saw it differently and in a less grandiose way than the Jedi. Or at least in a more utility-oriented way, ie. he as willing to use it for more mundane ends. This is a step away from the religious approach, even if it's a small one.

>Only several times it hasn't been the Jedi who start the wars,

Doesn't matter. Still a bad idea. Find kid on sandy world, train him to be god, turns into monster. Solution: figure out why or stop training kids to be gods. Or shoot them in the face before they turn into monsters.

>Jedi are useful for fighting them

In the short term. Yay, the aristocracy saved us! I love them again!

>> No.12157381

>>12157306
And yet they willingly let any Force sensitives opt out of the order at any time, or choose not to go with them in the first place. They are so threatening! We must get them under control (by teaching them to throw mountains and then not controlling them at all)! Oh, but it's okay if they don't want to come along. Just leave them on their homeworld with no supervision.

Yeah, totally consistent.

>>12157348
>If it develops in their order,

Which it won't, because of Yoda scowling at you for defying dogma. There's a reason we have things like tenure and pseudonyms. You don't have to directly threaten someone to get the point across that their ideas are "unpopular". Jolee Bindo left the order because the atmosphere became unpleasant for him.

>The Jedi usually remain distinct from Republic affairs

Until they don't, and they eagerly coopt the military as their personal entourage.

>once every thousand years, during a crisis,

The Germans only invade once every few decades! Our Empire has stood for almost a thousand years now. It's not like we'll eventually crumble due to the systemic problems with our government.

>> No.12157396

>>12157349
> Or at least in a more utility-oriented way, ie. he as willing to use it for more mundane ends.

And the Jedi were willing to use the force to resolve problems as well. They just didn't use it to go out and conquer people, which seems to be what you really wanted as you seem to prefer soldiers of a totalitarian dictatorship that gleefully commits genocide to make examples of people to a group of people who mostly just try to not hurt people, expand their knowledge of the force, and help out when the shit hits the fan.

> I mean, the guy from TIE Fighter was just a pilot. He may have trained him to be an Emperor's Hand or whatever, but he was nothing like a Jedi.

Emperor's Hands aren't exactly the most powerful force users out there. They're skills are pretty low key. And Palpatine did feed them his own dogma, that's part of being a Hand. It's part of being in his inner circle in the first place, even before contact with the force.

>> No.12157415

>>12157349
> Still a bad idea. Find kid on sandy world, train him to be god, turns into monster. Solution: figure out why or stop training kids to be gods. Or shoot them in the face before they turn into monsters.

Again, you're approaching this from after the fact. You're assuming he already knows about all the prequels... while blaming him for something he did in the prequels.

>> No.12157425

>>12157396
The appeal to emotion is strong in this one. Let's see..

>Jedi were willing to use the force to resolve problems as well.

Yep, ineffectually and schizophrenically. Decide whether you are interventionists or not, please. Then you can do something beyond being a feckless hypocritical dabbler.

>They just didn't use it to go out and conquer people, which seems to be what you really wanted as you are Hitler derp diddly herp totalitarianisms killing everyone is good

Thing with soldiers is, they are professionals. Training them is a science. Warriors tend to be surrounded with a lot of pseudo-mystical and caste system horseshit that fucks everything up. Soldiers are good because they are predictable. Think of a soldier like a gun - emotionless, efficient, reliable, disposable, replaceable. A warrior is more like a sentient Moonblade with an attitude.

>Emperor's Hands aren't exactly the most powerful force users out there.

That's good! It means he cultivated their skills just enough for them to be good at their jobs and then stopped. They were not meant to be warrior monks who dabble in everything, they were meant to be professionals.

>And Palpatine did feed them his own dogma

Yep, he sucked.

>> No.12157431

>>12157415
>after the fact.

After twenty five thousand years of Force users being really good at killing things, Jedi or not. If you can't prevent Darth Vaders from happening, don't train Anakins.

>> No.12157433

>>12157349
> The Germans only invade once every few decades!

You're comparing this, something that actually does happen more than once in living memory, to something that, during the prequels, hasn't happened in literally a thousand years. Think about how long that is, how impossibly hard it is to stay "Shoot everyone in the face!" vigilant for that long, and how absurd it is to expect that from them. It's apparent that you've already made up your mind long ago, and you're just fishing around for something to justify the idea of the Republic killing all the Jedi.

>> No.12157446

>>12157433
It's a galactic society spanning twenty times the amount of time since the last "we're all going to fucking die" crisis, of which there have been many. I think a few of their trillions of citizens might have the wherewithal to read the relative chronology instead of just shrugging at the vast timeframes.

>> No.12157461

>>12157425
> That's good! It means he cultivated their skills just enough for them to be good at their jobs and then stopped.

Which is incredibly stifling when it comes to actually learning anything about the force.

> After twenty five thousand years of Force users being really good at killing things, Jedi or not. If you can't prevent Darth Vaders from happening, don't train Anakins.

And they had been able to prevent it for the preceding thousand years. Which is why they were eventually willing to take him. At Qui-gon's and Obi-wan's prompting, demonstrating that the Jedi don't just ignore their dissenting voices.

> Thing with soldiers is, they are professionals. Training them is a science. Warriors tend to be surrounded with a lot of pseudo-mystical and caste system horseshit that fucks everything up. Soldiers are good because they are predictable. Think of a soldier like a gun - emotionless, efficient, reliable, disposable, replaceable. A warrior is more like a sentient Moonblade with an attitude.

The problem with training dark side soldiers is that the dark side largely relies on passions and desires, which are antithetical to what you just described a soldier to be. If anything, the soldiers you described are the Jedi, while the warriors are the Sith.

>> No.12157480

>>12157446
And their lifetime will come and go, with nothing of the nature of a dark side invasion happening. And that will repeat again, and again, and again for centuries. It's difficult to keep energy up for even a single century, demanding that the do so for ten is unreasonable. And the size only contributes to the problem, most people in the galaxy have never and will never see a Jedi, and end up thinking that the force is just a rumor, myth, urban legend, or what have you. You're underestimating the immense power of time to wear people down.

>> No.12157487

>>12157461
>Which is incredibly stifling when it comes to actually learning anything about the force.

Why? He's using scientists to apply the Force to specific situations related to industry and warfare instead of teaching random children to be generalist monks adhering to an incomprehensibly old and monolithic religion.

>Which is why they were eventually willing to take him.

I reiterate that he either needed better oversight or they need to realize that 1/10000 Jedi becomes a goddamn monster and stop training them.

>If anything, the soldiers you described are the Jedi, while the warriors are the Sith.

Here is the false dichotomy of Sith and Jedi again. Anything good is Jedi, anything bad is Sith. Palpatine used the "dark side" to train efficient, loyal soldiers who didn't exhibit any psychotic behavior or eye-yellowing that I know of. Many of them were also nice fellows. I call that a victory for the moderate position.

>> No.12157494

>>12157480
Which is precisely why I wish the Jedi would vanish so the Republic could experience true anal rape, whether at the hands of a "dark side" wielding enemy or not, so they can either fend for themselves or die out. Like I said, the Jedi constantly distribute and release energy that would otherwise build up and force positive (if violent) change.

>> No.12157534

> He's using scientists to apply the Force to specific situations related to industry and warfare instead of teaching random children to be generalist monks adhering to an incomprehensibly old and monolithic religion.

No. first, the scientists are following his instructions, they actually have no idea what they're really doing, just going through the motions. Plus Palpatine purges people who learn too much about the force. And the focus is ENTIRELY on warfare. Warfare in the name of the Galactic Empire, which is a poster child for insanely genocidal and oppressive regimes. At least the Jedi don't kill people simply for voicing a different opinion. They even listen to them if they can make a good case. Or leave them alone if they don't.

> I reiterate that he either needed better oversight or they need to realize that 1/10000 Jedi becomes a goddamn monster and stop training them.

Except it's not one in 10,000. It's significantly rarer even than that. And the previous time a crisis rolled around (the New Sith War) those Jedi were a major part of the Republic's victory. There was just as much precedent for the benefits of keeping them around as there was for the dangers. And they did keep up a good training regimen for a thousand years. That's a long time.

>> No.12157572

>>12157487
> Palpatine used the "dark side" to train efficient, loyal soldiers who didn't exhibit any psychotic behavior or eye-yellowing that I know of.

No, he really didn't. His dark side adepts were a pretty loony lot. The guy from Tie Fighter that you like to use as an example was the exception, rather than the rule. When the Jedi train people, sanity is the norm.

> Here is the false dichotomy of Sith and Jedi again. Anything good is Jedi, anything bad is Sith.

No, I don't. Your definition fits pretty well with the Jedi and the Sith on its own.
See:
> Warriors tend to be surrounded with a lot of pseudo-mystical and caste system horseshit that fucks everything up.

This fits the Sith pretty well. The Sith Empires have always wrapped the dark side up in religious trappings, cults, etc. They try to keep anything they know to themselves to guard their own power, and mystical cults develop as that gets assimilated into the general pool of knowledge.

>> No.12157575

>>12157534
hnnghhh i cant do this anymore

last thing ill say is, scientists cannot be narrowminded, they need collaboration and shit. the fact that he has scientists means he is not just piping them limited information, at least relatively speaking. people are studying the force, other people are aware of the study and the fact that it even goes on is enough impetus to make future force sensitives treat it as a studiable phenomenon.

re: second thing, plot armor has saved the republic too many times to count. if star wars were real life~ things would be different, because all those crises would have been genuine narrow misses, not tidily concluded stories shining with noblebright.

goodbye thread here is a picture of a space marine

>> No.12157616

>>12157487
Contrast the Sith warrior, draped in mysticism who is highly emotional, impulsive, chaotic, and considers himself the end all be all and thus not expendable, which is your definition of the warrior, with the Jedi.

> Soldiers are good because they are predictable. Think of a soldier like a gun - emotionless, efficient, reliable, disposable, replaceable.

Jedi keep their emotions under control, they work together toward their goal and don't waste resources on vendettas, back stabbing, etc. They also are willing to sacrifice themselves, as was shown in the New Sith War. When the Sith deployed their thought bomb, it wiped out most of the Sith and a massive number of Jedi. The Jedi took this in stride, rebuilt, and went on to help the Republic win the war. The Sith degenerated into infighting until only two remained.

>> No.12157662

>>12157575
> scientists cannot be narrowminded, they need collaboration and shit. the fact that he has scientists means he is not just piping them limited information

The scientist may not be narrow minded, but Palpatine is. And he can just feed them information, he has scientists in order to do things to the actual body of the Hand, which only he knows the overall results of. And then purges them. You shouldn't try to impose what you want Palpatine to be on the setting. You're setting yourself up for disappointment when he turns out to be something entirely different.

>> No.12157740

>>12157662
dunno man i say things a lot of time sbut it doesnt seem to mttr

>> No.12157798

Did we really just have a thread about the validity of the moral values of villains designed around high school nihilism?

>> No.12157981

>>12157798
Apparently. Because some people buy into that.

>> No.12158103

...

I agree that the rare super Force-sensitives shouldn't be trained to use their powers, as this leads to more intense destruction... but the Jedi philosophy doesn't allow for them to be eliminated based soley on how powerful they are. Of course... these leaves the supers vulnerable to corrupting by the Sith. Really it's a no-win situation.

I personally prefer Empires to Republics though... but I'm evil.

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