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[ERROR] No.12066987 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Alright /tg/, to prove to me that you don't just mindlessly worship DH because it has the Warhammer 40k logo on it, I want you to list some flaws of the system. Some honest to god bad game design present in the system. It's there, I can guarantee it (it's present in any reasonably complex game) and I want to be well aware of it before I look at the game.

>> No.12067014

your forgot >inb4 heresy

>> No.12067075

It's damn near impossible to one shot a regular guy, nothing special about him, because without a really big gun and some good rolls, he'll still have wounds left after a point blank shot to the face.

>> No.12067171

>>12067075
There has got to be more than that.

>> No.12067200

Gear is fucking expensive. It would take you several months to save up wages for anything that's not a laspistol. And you'll probably never get armor unless you start with it, loot it, or get a nice big bonus from your Inquisitor.

>> No.12067339

>>12067075

DERP I don't know how to use the accurate rules. Who knew I could get +10/20 +10 for Laser Sight +10 for Accurate +/- whatever range I'm at? If I hit them I'll do regular damage plus 2d10 if I hit well which is practically guaranteed due to insane bonuses. Also the extra damage is applied after armor and toughness.

As for gear, there's something called an "Inquisitorial Stipend". This little rule lets the GM give the players anything the Inquisitor thinks they need.

Really DH has some serious faults, usually involving the Ascension and Psykers in general. It also contradicts itself with Faith abilities and the SoB class in general, conflicting nay negating the use of all the other classes. However, most complaints dealing with the mechanics are from retards who don't understand the system and haven't bothered reading the rules in detail.

>> No.12067383

>>12067339
>As for gear, there's something called an "Inquisitorial Stipend". This little rule lets the GM give the players anything the Inquisitor thinks they need.

Nothing to really save you from your GM being a dick, though. And mine is. :\

>> No.12067407

If you don't have enough bonuses in your favor, you're going to get fucked in the ass.

If you have too many, the game becomes a cakewalk.

>> No.12067411

>>12066987
>shitty d% system
>characters are hugely terribad when first starting out
>combat system is meh
>counter-intuitive system: rolling low is better
>too many skills
>too many tables with random effects
>too many modifiers and fiddly bits overall
DH is a bad system. It's not that the game isn't fun, but the system itself needs a good clean-up to be usable. Unfortunately, the fantards that post here DO just suck off the system because it has the 40k logo on it. Fuck, you could put D&D 4e with the 40k logo on it and the people normally crying about shit twinkies would gobble that crap up.

>> No.12067414

>>12067339
I hear that excuse with every game. Not everyone who bitches is necessarily a retard because you disagree with them.

>> No.12067456

>>12067411

Get out of 4rrie shitface.

>> No.12067474

>>12067456
>implying I'm a 4rry
Ahahahaha.

>> No.12067497

>>12067414

They're retards because they don't read the rules and make unfounded complaints based on their own ignorance. Simple as that.

>> No.12067505

The Dark Heresy rulebook editors need to be shot. So much cross referencing back and forth, no side tables to help so you don't have reference, and then back-reference, ect ect.

Rogue Trader is better, but still suffers this flaw a little.

>> No.12067517

>>12067411
>characters are hugely terribad when first starting out
In 40k? I'm shocked. It's not like 40k has based itself entirely around normal humans being weak and vulnera-oh wait it has and that's the entire point of the franchise.
>counter-intuitive system: rolling low is better
lmao

>> No.12067527

>>12067474

Look into your hear. You know it to be true.

>> No.12067528

>>12067497
>THERE ARE NO LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS ABOUT MY SHITTY SYSTEM
DH is heavily equipment-based. There's one. Deal with it.

>> No.12067559

>>12067528
This is true.

Also, while it can be freaking funny, your token caster class is more than capable of causing TPKs from level one. Can be a little disheartening to have the campaign end before it starts.

>> No.12067561

>>12067528
>DH is heavily equipment-based. There's one. Deal with it.
So where's the complaint? How does that even register? You might as well bitch about Exalted for being heavily power-based (you can bitch about 4e being power-based but that's a legacy thing not an objective game design thing).

>> No.12067570

>>12067528

Is that a flaw? This isn't DnD where people shoot magic out of their ass or can cleave men in twain with a spork. If you're not packing iron, you best be running.

>> No.12067602

>>12067517
Don't forget disposable character syndrome. And characters take too long to roll up if they're going to be disposable.

>>12067561
>where's the complaint?
Unless you're fighting 'nids, enemy equipment directly translates to enemy power. If you want to make a couple of powerful enemies, you're going to have to give them high-ranking equipment. And the way DH works is that even those equipment-heavy enemies can die easily. The PCs then have that equipment and can easily go past the power level you want for your game, making encounters cakewalks.

>> No.12067619

This game makes too much realism concessions to melee attacks to make them viable in comparison to guns.

Also, a headshot is pretty much irrelevant if they still have wounds left.

>> No.12067621

>>12067559

Anyone who tries to engage a demonhost is either brave, stupid, or both. Also if your psyker is using more dice than he need or is manifesting in a place where the veil is thin, you deserve to die. That's how psyker's are balanced. Risk vs. Reward.

>> No.12067624

>>12067602
I should also add that it makes gauging encounter difficulty...challenging. Your standard cultist is pretty weak. So you give him some better equipment. Now how strong is he? I dunno, lol.

>> No.12067671

>>12067602
>Don't forget disposable character syndrome.
You mean "A thing that is awesome and should be encouraged all the time"?
>And characters take too long to roll up if they're going to be disposable.
That's fair, at least. It's funny how far down those advancement trees go considering that WHOOPS DROPPED A NADE

Still, though, the ultimate point is that you're supposed to have ways to use your brains and your wits to get around direct combat, instead of storming the enemy from the front. It's like complaining that a stealth game makes you too weak against enemies. Still, though, it's inherently a luck-based game, and there's always gonna be a risky side of that.

>> No.12067679

>>12067602

Your GM lets you walk away with evidence? Sorry, in DH you're not supposed to loot the enemy. That's what gets you shot by your Inquisitor. Even worse when the opponents you're fighting have a high probability of carrying tainted equipment.

Tomathy, it sounds like you either haven't played DH or have played with an exceptionally poor GM.

>> No.12067718

>>12067679
>have played with an exceptionally poor GM.
This may be the case. Though re-reading the daemonhost fluff makes me want to play again in a bad way.

>> No.12067761

>>12067679
Hold on a minute, why wouldn't Throne Agents nick stuff off the enemy? Inquisitorial folks do it all the time.
Granted those are actually decent lackey's and not some Red-Shirts from Planet Nowhere, but still. Why shouldn't the players be able to pick up something off the corpse of a fallen enemy?

>> No.12067954

>>12067761

Seriously? Because many of the opponents Acolytes face will be Xenos, Hereteks, and Chaos Worshipers. At the very least their equipment causes problems with Adeptus Mechanicus. Often time times it's worse and you have a high chance of gaining corruption/insanity through exposure. Point in case, in the adventure Tattered Fates, there are two scenarios where looting actually leads to possession.

As for Inquisitor's looting, yeah they can do it because the Imperium has deemed them worthy to risk their very souls in His name. Acolytes not so much. Most Inquisitors may ban looting for several reasons.

1. Greed is a sign of spiritual corruption.
2. Loot found in their line of work has a high chance of corrupting the user.
3. Using said loot will incur the wrath of the Inquisitor's peers. This may be Arch-Magos, Cardinals, or most likely fellow Inquisitors. No need to cause senseless conflicts right?
4. He likes keeping a tab on his servants. How can he trust if they're hiding stolen loot from him?
5. They won't get to keep the loot so why should they even try. The Inquisition owns them and can claim anything from them, even their very lives, if they deem it necessary.

>> No.12068288

>>12067570
I think you misunderstand what he's getting at. A psyker, while attempting to help the party, can, at level 1, accidentally summon a daemon or be possessed by a daemon that will obliterate the party and potentially the entire planet they are on.

>> No.12068351

>>12068288

Risk vs. Reward. If you're using your powers like they're candy, you deserve to be killed.

Also, even if your psyker summons a demon you can run. Hell you can kill it if it isn't a demonhost. Seriously, Demon/TPK is overrated. That's happened to me several times in campaigns at 500xp. With a little coordination and planning we were able to kill it. Our Inquisitor never even knew.

>> No.12068376

Hey OP,

just out of curiosity, while you may not like DH or the system. What sort of systems do you think perform better?

>> No.12068463

>>12068376

Not OP, but from my experience? Most of them. DH is great for fluff because it's W40k. It's D&D-tier for crunch. Hell, at least D&D has a base mechanic that's not stupidly counter-intuitive and uses a type of dice that aren't hilariously retarded. I mean d%? Really?

>> No.12068478

>>12067517 It's not like 40k has based itself entirely around normal humans being weak and vulnera-oh wait it has and that's the entire point of the franchise.

CLEARLY FAGGOT you have NEVER read a DAN ABNETT novel

HUMANITY>ALL

>> No.12068498

>>12068463
You got a problem with d100?

>> No.12068503

>>12068478
Even those are high-level guard officers, not Random Slobs Picked Off The Street. Playing DH at their level is like starting a D&D game at level 10.

also abnett is trash, so there's that

>> No.12068527

>>12068498

Yes. It's horrible and the person who came up with it should be shot.

>> No.12068552

Combat doesn't fit the setting.

It's so over lethal that the only real tactic is to duck and cover and take potshots at each other until someone goes a good head.

Now, this by itself isn't bad, and it's pretty realistic, but we're talking about 40k here, where it's considered not only acceptable to charge the other side with a chainsword, but effective as well. And yet, trying that in DH will get you very very dead very very fast.

That and as of right now, the vehicle rules are beyond hilarious. a Techpriest in a Sentinel can kill demons solo, for god sakes. Hell, I think a guardsmen can do it even better, but a techpriest stands a real chance at getting and modifying one to their own ends.

>> No.12068575

>>12068527
Why?

D% isn't that hard, and it gives a decent way to not only score success, but measure degrees of success.

As for the backwards rolling, yea, that was a problem. But they did it on purpose trying to replicate the stats of 40k on the table.

>> No.12068580

>>12068552
>it's considered not only acceptable to charge the other side with a chainsword
...if you're a SPACE MARINE. Also, for real you guys, the whole "swords" thing has nothing to do with health or whatever, it has to do with the fact that guns in 40k shoot about twenty feet and guns in DH have an effective range of about 100 yards (still 1/5th of the range of modern rifles). It's not 40k's ATTITUDE that allows for melee combat, it's 40k's BLATANTLY TERRIBLE GUNS.

>> No.12068583

>>12067411
Low is good really doesn't take that much to remember.
I like knowing my chances.

So the dice choice is a bit of personal taste.

Some rules do contradict common sense, and from what I hear balance gets wonky at higher levels.

The DH<->RT conversion is not quite accurate XP wise.
A few other things I forget.

>> No.12068591

>>12068552
>Now, this by itself isn't bad, and it's pretty realistic, but we're talking about 40k here, where it's considered not only acceptable to charge the other side with a chainsword, but effective as well.

Not if you are a guardsman, rogue trader, inquisitor, arbiter, etc etc etc.

You get the point?

If you want that sort of gameplay, wait a couple weeks for Deathwatch to release. It is completely feasible in that game to charge headlong into HORDES of enemies with a chainsword.

>> No.12068612

>>12068580
Not only for Space Marines, but for Orks, Eldar, and some IG groups.

And you act as if I didn't realize why it was a problem. You're also forgetting that the way40k is set up, shooting is a lot weaker than in DH.

>> No.12068613

>>12068527
So Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Rolemaster, Marvel FASERIP, MERPS, BRP, WFRP1, Harnmaster, Unknown Armies, Anima, WFRP2, Rogue Trader, and Eclipse Phase are all trash games?

>> No.12068631

>>12068591
Again, I can understand why maybe the PCs can't do it, being lowly humans.

But when Orks try it in DH or RT, they get murdered just as bad as the humans do. Which is pretty weird, because it's their whole deal.

>> No.12068639

>>12068463
Cool. Thanks for responding. What do you think is the best system? I'd like to run a homebrew 40k rp with a better system.

>>12068503
Abnett... trash? Pic related, scum.

>> No.12068650

>>12068575
You're seriously asking why d% is bad?

Ok. I'll give you one thing. It's not TOO hard. But it's enough of a hang up to slow down games. And it does it for no reason. It's not like you'll ever do anything that will give you a +1 or +2 to a roll. You're getting ridiculous bonuses like 20 and 30. You might as well just do a d20 or a d10. One roll, just look at the die.

d% is only ever good for extremely large random tables, and even then only if you need to have 100 different possible outcomes. In any other situation, smaller die types are simpler and more effective.

>> No.12068672

orks charge into people with choppas
eldar charge into people with chainswords


humans are the only major race who, with only their natural abilities, are ill advised to charge in swinging, but better off shooting.

>> No.12068684

>>12068612
>And you act as if I didn't realize why it was a problem.
It's because the game is being taken from "war game" to "RPG" and in doing so is shifting the suspension of disbelief. It's one thing for a wargame to be like "well they can only shoot from that far away" and it's quite another to go "well he's like 80 feet away, can i shoot him" "no" "what"

>> No.12068690

>>12068650
It gives bonuses of 5s for a long of stuff, and it allows a character to advance in their ability to succeed at tests by small amounts while still not increasing their bonus numbers too much.

A character can go from 30 to 35 toughness for example and have better odds of success on tests, but still not score that 4 TB.

>> No.12068693

>>12068650
The complaint is having to remember what die is 1s and what is 10s?

Most of my games are online so it does not really come up.

>> No.12068732

>>12068684
When I said I realized why it had become a problem, why did you just explain it further?

I know why it's a problem. But that doesn't make it any less of a problem, and there are ways to fix it.

Make enemies not die nearly as fast to fire, for example.

>>12068672
And my problem isn't the humans. My problem is when a bunch of Orks charge me and my group, and we just cut them down like they were gangers. Orks can't make it into CC any better than humans can.

>> No.12068734

>>12068693
After all with a 20 or a 10 the goal and the ability modifiers are all separate.

>> No.12068746

>>12068693

Use differently colored dice for the 1s and 10s column?

>> No.12068747

d% is way easy for people to understand, especially compared to d20. All you bitches are complaining because 40k rp is simpler than DnD. Real weak guys.

>> No.12068776

>>12068732And my problem isn't the humans. My problem is when a bunch of Orks charge me and my group, and we just cut them down like they were gangers. Orks can't make it into CC any better than humans can.


your GM should sneak some Kommandos in

>> No.12068778

>>12068650
I am so utterly confused right now. You have GOT to be trolling.

Pic related, it's my best attempt to be as nonsensical as you are.

>> No.12068789

>>12068732

Hurr durr I have no understanding of how TT 40k works.

I play guard with almost pure infantry. Against Orks, I kill most of them before they reach me with all my shooting.

>> No.12068841

>>12068776
That just avoids the problem, it doesn't solve it.

And before we get into the meat of this pointless argument, this isn't some gamebreaking problem. This isn't a make it or break it deal. It's just a problem I have with the system.

>>12068789
Well, if you think your own experiences with the game reflect the entire setting as a whole, you do have no understanding.

Besides that rather glaring error, there's also the fact that the table reflects an entire army of IG fighting against Orks versus the example at hand, which is a couple guys fighting Orks.

There's also the fact that you might just be fighting sucky Ork players.

>> No.12068877

>>12068693
Where do you play online?

Any room for another?

>> No.12068879

>>12068841
So you say shooting is too good, and most say it isn't good enough?

>> No.12068880

does dark heresy have stats for...

-average guardsman
-average ork shoota
-average eldar guardian

?

how do they compare to their tabletop versions

>> No.12068904

>>12068880
Not really. There's things that are close. Kind of an easy comparison though is multiply each stat in tabltop by 10. WS and BS translate fairly well, as do strength and toughness. Initiative is agility. Don't even try this with the weapons though, those are so borked in translation.

>> No.12068911

>>12068841

Quit being a bitch. Just because you want a universe revolving around making melee practical in a ranged battlefield doesn't mean it should. 40k makes enough concessions as it is to CC. Any more and there would be no motivation to even make ranged weapons.

>> No.12068928

>>12068879
I think the problem is that I feel shooting is fine in human vs human situations, but when you add something like Orks, who's whole basic theme is to charge right at the enemy, shrug off whatever they hit you with, and tear them apart in CC, it just falls flat because PCs of a comparable level to the Orks can just slaughter them before they ever get close.

>> No.12068941

>>12068911
I've been wondering, did they ever stat the Shokk Attack Gun in 40K roleplay?

>> No.12068942

>>12068879

He's a troll guys, just ignore him.

>> No.12068962

>>12068911
Way to not read my post at all.

I just want Orks that feel like fluff Orks should, big old impossible to kill monsters who rush right at you, ignore everything you throw at it, and then try and murder you in CC. DH doesn't have that.

>> No.12068970

>>12068928

DERP... Talk about SM fanboys, this guy believes Orks are impervious to ranged weaponry.

>> No.12068980

double the wounds orks have listed

you now have fluffy orks

>> No.12068982

>>12068928
Hmmm. I think if we're dealing with heroic Inquisitorial henchmen... then, yeah, I think unit for unit, the orks would be cut down. Orks work best in numbers.

Then again, I'm speaking from limited experience with the RP version.

The tabletop version usually has a similar result, most orks crumble under accurate gunfire.

>> No.12068987

>>12068942
>>12068841
I even went to the trouble of saying this wasn't a huge big old problem with the system and I still get called a troll.

Look, the OP asked for flaws and problems with the system, and I listed mine. If Orks try and do what they usually do in the fluff, that is charge right at whatever they want to kill, they get slaughtered before they ever make it close. I feel this shouldn't happen. Or at least not happen as drastically as it does.

>> No.12068989

>>12068941
Dunno about Shokk Attack but there is a snazzgun.

Basic; 100m; 2d10I or E; 1d10 Pen; 20 Clip; 2F reload; Inaccurate, Overheats, Unreliable (sans orks); 7kg; rare; special rule

It's somewhere in creatures anathema.

>> No.12069006

>>12068989
Then I must houserule. HOUSERULE LIKE THE WIND!!!

>> No.12069014

>>12068962
>big old impossible to kill monsters who rush right at you, ignore everything you throw at it, and then try and murder you in CC. DH doesn't have that.

This is not how orks are described in the fluff.

You got some of it right. They like to rush into cc.
They also tend to shrug off any fear (represented by DH's mob rule).

But orks are far from impossible to kill creatures. They are actually, unit for unit, easier to kill. The real danger of the orks comes from overwhelming tides lead by the truly dangerous orks.

>> No.12069016

>>12068970
Only if there's a Big Mekk present.

>> No.12069018

>>12069006

Yeah, after double checking, no Shokk Attack guns anywhere, not even in into the storm. ITS DOES have a deffgun though. And the snazzgun's special rules include a table of random effects.

>> No.12069030

>>12069006

imagine that the shokk attack gun hurled exploding psykers at people

>> No.12069035

>>12068970
The problem here is that you can't replicate the tactics the Orks use in fluff exactly on the table. You can't have an absolutely insane number of Orks charge the PCs, because it becomes too unwieldy of a combat. So the answer is to play up their invulnerability a little.

I'm not saying they shouldn't die to ranged attacks, I'm saying they shouldn't die so easily.

>>12068980
This is what I do, in fact. Or close to it, at least. And before it comes up: The guy wanted flaws with the system, so I gave mine. Yes, I house rule it. But it's still a flaw in my mind.

>> No.12069037

>>12068962
That is not the whole point of Orks. They are hard to kill, sure, but not nearly impossible. The whole "charge straight at them" technique only ever works when there is a veritable metric shitton of them. And a lot of them will die running straight at people shooting. And they should. That's how fluff depicts it, that's how tabletop depicts it, and that's how DH depicts it.

If your GM isn't sending enough Orks at you to make it close, he's doing it wrong. If you think this shows a problem with the system, you're doing it wrong. It's like complaining one ganger standing in the middle of the road is to easy a target.

>> No.12069047

>>12068987

OP don't listen to this retard. Orkz are meant to attack in numbers. If they're equal in number to the Acolytes and are charging from a long distance, it's only common sense that they'll get slaughtered. Pandering to this fanboys sick desires will only make your players frustrated at how OP Orkz will be.

>> No.12069053

>>12069014
>>12069035
You can't reflect the huge mob of Orks in a standard DH game.

So play up their insane toughness. I mean, they certainly have it, being T4 at the most basic. And it's a common element of Ork features that even if they go down at first, they still might not be dead. Hell, an Ork can survive having it's head cut off if it gets attached back on quickly enough.

>> No.12069058

be very honest its way to easy for your players to kick the door in and kill every thing then leave its anti RP i guess is my biggest piss off point id like to see more RP from my players but meh they just want to murder stuff and take its loot also emperor wrath is just fricken wrong also psyker phenomenon is way to unforgiving , the running joke among my players is DH the only game you can kill your self shaving

>> No.12069060

>>12069047Orkz are meant to attack in numbers.

and IG too, with multipliers like artillery.

>> No.12069078

>>12069037
Sending enough Orks to make it close just slows the fuck out of the combat.

>>12069047
I'm not trying to make Orks impossible to kill, you dolt. I'm just trying to have them reflect their unstoppable charge in DH without having the whole encounter come to an absolute crawl.

>> No.12069080

>>12068690
Hey, here's something.

5x20=100

5/100=1/20

d% is retarded and can more easily be reflected with a d20, unless you have a situation where you need a bonus of less than one 1/20.

>> No.12069083

>>12069053

You're stupid. Use the horde rules from DW if you're really that desperate. They're free in the Final Sanction demo adventure.

God this guy is a moron.

>> No.12069085

>>12069035
It sounds like many of the complaints, such as this one, are sort of misplaced.

If you're playing DH like a group of Astartes, rolling around against large groups of orks, you and your GM are doing it wrong. That's not what the Inquisitors do.

If inquisitors stumble upon the occasional small squad of orks, they should, like any small squad of orks be obliterated with an adequately trained group.

What you want is coming.

What you want will come with Deathwatch. In Deathwatch, there is a horde mechanic that basically sets your squad of marines against a "unit" horde with a "magnitude score" instead of wounds.

Playtest the Final Sanction PDF. Check this mechanic. I think you'll like it.

>> No.12069089

>>12069058
Give them something they can't murder right away.

>> No.12069094

>>12069053
Sure you can, it just takes a bit of number management. That said, I can understand why you wouldn't want to.

That's where your GM has to stop being retarded with his Orks. Have them ambush you, or confront you in tight spaces where you can't manuever. Have them wait around corners, be in buildings, use distraction tactics. All things smarter warbosses have been known to use. Next time the orks charge straight at you, it might be to cover up the kommandos about to stab you in the back.

DH is primarily a game of tactics, and this applies to the enemies as well.

>> No.12069095

>>12069085If inquisitors stumble upon the occasional small squad of orks, they should, like any small squad of orks be obliterated with an adequately trained group.

dumbass

>> No.12069101

>>12068693

The problem is that you have to roll a 1's die and a 10's die in the first place. This is unnecessary when you could just roll a d20 and be done with it.

>> No.12069109

i think his problem is, if you took those orks and replaced them with human goons, there would be no gameplay difference in them getting gunned down in droves.

So the flavor of orks in 40k is lost.


---

how do encounters vs Eldar soldiers go? The same problem rises?

>> No.12069111

>>12069095

Really, ORK FANBOYZ DETECTED!

This guy believes a squad of Orkz can take out an Inquisitor.

>> No.12069129

>>12069101
I agree with this guy. Basic math is hard.

>> No.12069138

>>12069085
My problem is that the only way to make Orks a threat in DH is to either have them start at melee range, which is generally unfair to the ranged characters(and for most groups, everyone tends to have a ranged bent, so it becomes close to a TPK), or to make them fight at range themselves, which isn't a huge deal, but can get a little unfluffy. I mean, not every boy is going to be a shootaboy.

I mean, situations solve it. If you've got Orks in something like a hive or caves or something, this becomes a non-issue, because the Orks tend to stand a chance at getting close. But if there's open terrain, the Orks aren't even a threat to the group at all.

And the real problem here is that there's no easy answer to the problem. Weakening ranged weapons doesn't solve it, and fucks up everything else where ranged weapons are fine. Making the Orks tougher in general sort of fixes it, but it makes them insane up close when they were already good. Giving them some sort of protection from ranged attacks only sounds stupid and biased.

And it's not a big problem anyways, just a complaint I have. This isn't a "DH is stupid because of this, no one should ever ever play it." deal.

>> No.12069142

>>12069129

It's not that it's "Hard", it's that it's an additional step with no benefit whatsoever.

>> No.12069153

>>12069080
D20 systems are far to prone to criticals to be accurate. While I do enjoy both Pathfinder and Star Wars D20 systems, I find crits happening several times in a session, with the end result being crits losing their "HOLY SHIT" factor.

DH retains that, and in a big way. I've never seen more than one crit in a session, and each time it happens there's a jaw dropping effect. It can turn shooting at someone into "Holy shit his head just exploded and blinded everyone around him, but that sort of bloodshed appeased Khorne and ohmyfuckinggod there's a Charnel daemon now ohfuckohfuck"

>> No.12069156

>>12068928
Orks. Unnatural Toughness x2, high wounds, a lot of toughness-based resilience talents like Iron Jaw and True Grit, and that +10Wp for EACH other greenskin in proximity.

What the fuck are you guys using that's cutting them down comparably to a TB 3 10-wound ganger in leathers with autopistols?

>> No.12069158

>>12069109
It can, though Eldar are a lot better at avoiding fire.

Plus, Eldar are sneakier, and willing to avoid combat until they've got the advantage.

And there's the part where the Eldar can be a real threat at range as well. Orks can get lucky, but they tend not to shoot well(which is perfectly fine)

>> No.12069159

>>12069138And the real problem here is that there's no easy answer to the problem. Weakening ranged weapons doesn't solve it, and fucks up everything else where ranged weapons are fine. Making the Orks tougher in general sort of fixes it, but it makes them insane up close when they were already good.

that's good, that is accurate.

Non augmented humans are terribad at close combat compared to the monsters of the 40k galaxy

>> No.12069162

>>12069101
COLOR FUCKING CODING IT'S NOT THAT HARD

OR QUITE POSSIBLY YOU HAVE A D10 WITH AN EXTRA 0 AT THE END OF THE NUMBERS IN YOUR DICE BAG. USE THAT, IT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR.

>> No.12069178

>>12069101
...
...
REALLY?
Please kill yourself. If rolling 2 dice is too complicated for you you should not be playing in the first place.

>> No.12069189

>>12069156
Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers, a Missile Launcher, a techpriest with a Heavy Bolter servitor.

>> No.12069220

Fucking THAC0, how does it work?

Also, for all the people having Ork problems, give them a mek with a fucking forcefield. Just make it an area effect that increases the difficulty for PC's shooting a step or two. There you go, fluff-accurate method of making small Ork squads harder to kill without also making them too hard to kill in melee.

>> No.12069222

>>12069095
Interesting.

Dumbass is the only response you can come up with?

I'd say pot calling kettle black, except it seems like you're the only dumbass here because you've run out of actual arguments in favor of ad hominem.

I can use table top stats if you'd prefer. Pop open your demon hunters book. (current predictions of the 5th ed. suggest the inquisitors are going to be even more powerful).

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor:
WS 4|BS4|S3|T3|W2|I4|A2|Ld8|Sv4+

They have psychic abilites, can have a retinue, and can carry everything from Bolters to Melta, lightning claws, to master crafted power weapons.

So, yes, you utter faggot.. inquisitors can kill Ork Boyz mano-a-mano.

Same goes for fucking Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Vetrans, and assassins.

They can all cut down Orks if a small group is within firing range.

>> No.12069225

What are you guys all retarded? Have you even read the Ork boy stats in CA? He's a fucking beast compared to the average ganger player's will face. In large groups, they're practically invulnerable to fear and any psychic powers using it.

That confirms it. You guys are trollz.

>> No.12069230

>>12069153
I... I...

Ok. I might be confused here. It's been a while since I've played DH. You do get a "Critical hit" whenever you roll under 10, right? That's what I think I remember.

>> No.12069244

>>12069162
>>12069178

Jesus shit you motherfuckers are dense. It's not that it's difficult. It's that it takes a few fucking extra seconds that it SHOULDN'T TAKE because there is no fucking reason to use d100, ever.

>> No.12069252

>>12069230
I think it's 10% of whatever your rating is. So if you've got a 34 in BS, you crit on a 3 or less.

I THINK that's how it works, but I might be mixing it up with Call of Cthulhu.

>> No.12069253

>>12069230
No, crit success is a roll of 01, crit fail is 100.

Getting a 02 or what not is generally very devastating because of degree of success rules, but crits are on a whole other level of FUCKING SHIT UP

>> No.12069256

>>12069189
That's serious military hardware most acolytes won't be packing unless they expect a warzone.

Sounds about right they'd be challenging even to orks.

Next time try sending orks into the situation when they're not tooled up to the nines looking to take over a small country, and see how tough orks are when all you have is a lasgun and some guts behind it.

As for my actual opinion of a flaw? The fettering rules for Ascension: it makes it literally possible for a psyker to cast his/her powers with no risk, which is not only mechanically dubious but also rapes the canon depiction of psykers and belittles psychic powers in general.

In fact, Ascension in general. Combining skills into generic homogenous packages, careers full of overpriced Peer/Good Rep talents (my sororitas is Fel 27; she is NOT getting Fel 50+ between now and rank 9), and the Temple Assassin talent.

Temple. Fucking. Assassin.

>> No.12069260

>>12069253
Oh, ignore >>12069252, I fail.

>> No.12069267

>>12069222
Actually the only sort of heavy/spec ranged weapon inquisitors can take aside from combi bolters is the psycannon

>> No.12069281

>>12069225

>> No.12069292

>>12069256

Agreed. Ascension was the worst book in the entire line. Instead of building on previous talents and skills, they gave us the same shit repackaged. The only stuff they added was OP and negated any balance.

>> No.12069304

>>12069292
At the very least, it's a way for DH and DW characters to be on equal footing without houseruling.

>> No.12069311

>>12069260
It's cool, I'm pretty sure that's right for CoC, and it's completely forgiveable to mix up the odd rule for systems.

>> No.12069351

>>12069253

Where does the book say this? I can't find anything about critical failure or successes.

>> No.12069359

>>12069304

Yeah, but only three classes. VA, PP, and Magos are unstoppable. The VA can dodge any all attacks while being just as good as a SM. The PP can kill 5-7 Lords of Change. The Magos can tank lascannons. Meanwhile, the rest of the classes are left high and dry with overpriced social talents and lackluster combat ones. All which add nothing new and recaps of what they should had ranks ago.

>> No.12070301

>>12069158
Eldar can fuck you up royally. They go first, always, they wait in ambush, they have guns to kick the shit out of anything you can bring to the table, they'll avoid all of your shots with ease, and they're cut your face off in CC.

They're monsters man. The only way we kileld them was my Guardsman laid a fucking ton of boobytraps that killed off half their number and wounded the rest so we could finish them off. Even then we still lost half the party.

Of course the fucking Scum using Spook and scaring our heavy weapons guy into insanity didn't help any. Fucking Spook.

>> No.12070327

>>12070301
And this is why my group doesn't bother fighting them.

On an entirely unrelated note, apparently sex with a Harlequin requires a pretty steep agility test.

>> No.12070415

>>12069053

HORDES RULES MORON

READ THEM

>> No.12070439

>>12070327
Unrelated. Right. Did you know Genestealers get a +20 bonus to hugs?

>> No.12070485

>>12070439

Source?

I'm playing a game where one of the Psykers is from a family who get part 'Stealer genetic implants. (I think that comes from Dark Reign) She does Biomancy/Telepathy, has Trade(Sex Worker), and lives in a pirate harem ship, so a racial minor bonus to hugs would be a cool fluffy advantage :)

>> No.12070487

>>12070485
4 arms.

>> No.12070512

>>12067517
True Dat
>>12070485
>I'm playing a game where one of the Psykers is from a family who get part 'Stealer genetic implants
W.T.F.

>> No.12070520

>>12070485
Right, requesting more information here.

>> No.12070521

>>12069359
>Yeah, but only three classes. VA, PP, and Magos are unstoppable.
>PP

lolno

You want Inquisitor, who can buy as many goddamned Psy Ratings as they want from that one Ascended Trait, while still getting access to PPs Unnatural Willpower (x3). Beats out the +4 to Psy Rating PP gets, and most Ascended Powers are rather worthless already (though the warp time one is pretty badass).

>> No.12070541

>>12070521

>ascended powers worthless
>Voice of the Emperor completely disables all enemies in range, and possibly even kills them.
>Blood Boil also pretty much instant death to anything without retardedly high toughness.
>Inferno burning down entire hab-blocks

>> No.12070554

>>12067339

>If I hit them I'll do regular damage plus 2d10 if I hit well which is practically guaranteed due to insane bonuses. Also the extra damage is applied after armor and toughness.

Page number?

>> No.12070565

>>12069244
>Jesus shit you motherfuckers are dense. It's not that it's difficult. It's that it takes a few fucking extra seconds that it SHOULDN'T TAKE because there is no fucking reason for any chance of failure, ever.

>> No.12070572

>>12070554
>If I hit them I'll do regular damage plus 2d10

is in the latest version of the Dark Heresy Errata (3.0, free on FFG's website, google it.)

>Also the extra damage is applied after armor and toughness.

This is just plain wrong.

>> No.12070585

only real issue that I can think of is that combat CAN be slow... and when in a career, you can't change out of it - it's 4 lief bro.

An attack in D&D: roll d20 to hit, roll d# for damage. Can both be done easily in the same roll. HP below 0? DEAD

An attack in DH: work out circumstance bonuses, roll d10 and d00 to hit, roll d10 and d00 to see where it hit, roll d10 for damage and subtract away from that armour and TB. Is it critical? roll d10 for effect. Opponent may still be alive.

But that's just a matter of patience.

>> No.12070593

>>12070512
>>12070520

The guy playing the tainted abomination came with a pic he took of the relevant source. He told us he'd found that on Dark Reign, we went over the details with the DM, and it's not OP or anything, it just gives a special Peer talent and some nifty advantage like "can naturally psy-talk with others suchly implanted".
And a Xenos Majoris threat rating, too, so it's a good thing the only Inquisitor we met was Felroth Gelt (You know Xenology? Small-time. This here fucker has a zoo full of Xenos and daemons, a cave full of forbidden tech, you name it. So our little self-made twist is so far down the interest ladder she's beneath notice).

Want to use that in a game of yours? The family is a credible investigation for starting acolytes, it's not as if they had Brood Magus and Lord as a 'Stealer cult, it's just heresy to implant your sacred human form with abominable chitinous xeno flesh. So a local branch would play just like a local gang with a different speciality. And don't you leave a hint, the clan's powerful and extended.

>> No.12070596

>>12070585
You reverse the to hit roll to work out where it hits dumbass

>> No.12070606

>>12070585
>roll d10 and d00 to hit, roll d10 and d00 to see where it hit

To-hit and location are the same roll; you take the result rolled for to-hit and reverse it for determining hit location (ie roll 40 to-hit, reverse it to 04 for hit location; head)

>Is it critical? roll d10 for effect

Critical chart is what you use once you're past 0 wounds. A character with 5 wounds taking 7 impact damage would receive a result of 2 on the critical hit (impact) table. If he takes an additional 2 damage (impact), he receives the 4th result on that same table (Provided hit location remains consistent)

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