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[ERROR] No.12041207 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

/tg/... Why is the vizier Always the bad guy?

While I admit he's usually a compelling villainous frame, it's become quite ridiculous concerning how it's ALWAYS the Vizier, in a proverbial 'the butler did it' sense (except in the Vizier's case it isnt an exaggeration.. it really IS always him)

On that note... is there any Vizier in any work of fiction/encountered in any campaigns of yours that break the mold? Because I certainly cant think of any

Also: Villainous cliche subversions general

>> No.12041216

Islamic trope. Also a way to explain away the undesirable actions of a autocratic government without undermining the moral authority of the monarch to rule.

>> No.12041223

I often threw in advisers as red herrings. My PCs always suspected them.

Or anyone with a black goatee, for that matter.

>> No.12041230


Well actually OP, the original Ja'far wasnt a villain at all... in fact he was a good guy

>> No.12041234

perhaps not exactly related, but I have a PC in the campaign I'm currently running who IS the Vizier.

>> No.12041238

The Vizier of a fictional nation of mine was actually the sole voice of reason.
He was eventually shot
His successor was tossed from a balcony

>> No.12041242

The best way to turn the trope on its head, is for the vizier to be influencing the King/whatever. But for the King still stick to his new moral foundations after the players inevitably kill the puppeteer.

For instance, King is killing people looking for an evil superweapon

Party finds out that this is what the vizier wants

Kill vizier

King still seeks superweapon (superweapons are easily explainable for any alignment) just doesnt kill for it unless provoked.

>> No.12041247


Whoops, forgot spoiler tags do not work on this board.

>> No.12041293

I'm more amused by a subversion in which while the vizier isn't the bad guy, he's still working very quietly and dishonestly to undermine the monarch's evil plans. He's a villain in the sense that his actions are more pragmatic than idealist (he sure as hell isn't going to "take a stand" for anything,) but his motivation is _firmly_ good. Not "well-intentioned." Good.

>> No.12041297

Some show about a beast planet that ate other planets, a stone, swamp, lava, and ice planet, engines that move planets, ships made of "null energy", yadda yadda.

Anyways, the fire planet king died when the prince was young, and the vizier, the prince's father figure, being a lawful good tradition-rapped crazy (awesome) man, stayed behind while the fire people were evacuted to the other planets, and then afterwards, while the planet was about to be eaten, used the world engine to slam the planet into the beast planet, and, while not destroying it (huge and powerful and plot armoured.) Managed to damage it enough so the rest of them could fly their planets to a safe distance to escape.

Was pretty awesome.

>> No.12041303

Ad Avis seems like a pretty decent chap

I think we should trust him


>> No.12041314

Never fear! Zig-zag the vizier is here!

>> No.12041325

I remember that show.

was on ytv in canada right?

>> No.12041346


This gives me an interesting idea for GM dickery...

Have the party questing to defeat a demonic sultan that has overthrown some arabian nights setting... and have him assisted by a Vizier fueld by his infernal power

The Vizier acts kind of like a recurring adversary who appears suddenly to fudge with the party's efforts, sned minions after them, or steal whatever holy artifact of awesome they've just acquired right out from under them (he always leaves the party alive though...)

At the end, after the demon prince is defeated and a portal to hell is opened, and the Vizier cries out that 'it was mind control!'. Suffice to say the party most likely leaves him to be dragged into the abyss... after which they find their way into his room, which contains a documented journal detailing how he really WAS under mind control and had secretly been helping the party along at various points without their knowing

The kicker? If they do opt to save him... he's suddenly possessed by the spirit of the demon, and they have to kill him, whereupon he gives a tearful farewell speech before dying

>> No.12041352

Actually, there's a historical basis as well. Later on the Ottoman Empire was ruled by the Grand Viziers, the sultans being simple puppets, locked away in their pleasure palaces.

Sometimes a sultan tried to take matters into his own hands - he quickly found a dagger between his shoulderblades or a drop of poison in his drink.

>> No.12041387

Because sorcery in Persia was nothing less than the dealing with dark powers and gaining magical abilities through pacts with forces no principled person would ever consort with. Wise men were feared by the nobility because you could never tell when one would decide you were unfit for your place in society and bring you to ruin with a few well placed words, a thimbleful of lies, and a kindly pat on the ruler's hand.

>inglarva pupae
.....no, Captcha, we do not need an infestation.

>> No.12041402

Because phrases like "thankfully, the seneschal was there to save the day" don't roll of the tongue very well.

"Vizier" just sounds sinister.

>> No.12041435


FUCK nostalgia bomb

Pity nobody remembers the Princess and the Cobbler anymore

>> No.12041460


>inglarva pupae

Anyone statted these guys?

>> No.12041464


Hey, the seneschal in my Rogue Trader game is one of the most sane and moral people in the party.

...then again, her loyalty IS Sisters of Battle 1, Rogue Trader 2, Eccesiarcy 3...so she might fall into the trope anway...

>> No.12041466

You know who needs a statblock?

>> No.12041482


I would, but I'm not too experienced with any system beside DnD (third and fourth editions).

>> No.12041507

I know that in Eberron, one of the main human kingdoms (the one Sharn is in) has the king's younger brother (who is a spellcaster) as his chief advisor and spymaster. But he's actually a pretty chill guy who isn't trying to undermine his older brother and take the throne.

>> No.12041561


And what happened next?

>> No.12041619

In a (homebrew) game I played in, there was a player whose character was the vizier's son. Incidentally, another character was also the sultan's daughter. Anyhow, while the vizier himself was an alright guy, he was the city's reigning practitioner of necromancy, with his son being his star pupil. The aforementioned sultan's daughter was also your average over-the-top, leather-bound assassin princess; a match made in heaven.

Long story short, (if you couldn't already tell) it was an "Evil" campaign. The vizier's son slew his father and usurped his position as Vizier after he tried to warn the sultan about the princess' plan to kill him. It was quite a sad moment, really, especially since the vizier was my favourite character, but mostly because he'd known all along the sort of ruthless bastard his son had become and yet loved him nonetheless, even to the bitter end.

P.S. My own character was a heretical, demon-worshipping cult leader whose mortal soul had been tainted by being forced to consume the blood of a djinn, becoming something of a priest/cleric, divine powers and all. The other characters included your gestalt but not-so-honourable "King of Thieves", and a Mongolian-like military/mercenary warlord. I'm not going to lie: most of the players thought my character was the coolest, 'though it was the King of Thieves that won out in the end.

>> No.12042256


There's something else

Why is everyone in Arabian style settings either a thief, a vizier, a genie, or royalty?

Is there any other kinds of obscure badass types of creatures or characters from older incarnations of the arabian nights of which I am unawares?

>> No.12042265

I saw it too. Shadow something is all I can remember for the name. Shadow Raiders I think.

>> No.12043501

If you want to get really tricky, play a European Barbarian who wandered down via trade caravans, or at very least a fighter from the imperial army.

Any as for guys who RP instead of optimizing.....can merchant be a class

>> No.12043546

War Planets: Shadow Raiders.

>> No.12043601

Nope, never heard of it, never

Also: Teleporting prison being used to send your problems into poor lizardman planet's backyard does not resolve the problem!

>> No.12043646

Don't underestimate cobblers.

>> No.12043656


Merchant. Think Sinbad.

>> No.12043668


By the Mainframe guys who also made ReBoot.

>> No.12043674

was also on abc in australia

>> No.12043688

Has it's roots in western retellings of eastern fiction. The Sultan is just a King and the Vivzier just your typical advisor. This was a simplification of the dynamics to make it more accessible to western thought.
The King then was always considered second only to God, his rule by divine right, and by a bloodline protected and blessed by God.
The construct of the corrupt official or Vizier in this case served initially for a means for the public to see how their God-Kings could do ba things.
Kings would often make unpopular decisions and male scapegoats of advisors to maintain their hold on their power.
The Vizier as a literary piece therefore is the continuation of this idea. It acts as the mouthpiece of temptation, of Satan, swaying the God-King from the true path.
Kings can't be wrong cause GOD so there needs to exist an explanation for when they make bad choices.

>> No.12043693


You mean The Thief and the Cobbler, right?

Recobbled version is best version.

I can personally and with conviction say The Thief and the Cobbler is the best thing I've ever watched in my entire life.

>> No.12043707

Seriously though; if they made Merchant a PC class, he had 10 skill points per level, his class skills were Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Geography, History, Local and Nobility/Royalty) and Sense Motive, but he had a BAB progression shittier than that of wizards and hitdice the same as his race, would you have one in your group to increase profit in an Arabian setting?

Also, if Vizier was a class, what would it be like?

>> No.12043737

I can't belive nobody posted yet that picture of modified Vizier as Chaos Sorcerer.

>> No.12043748


I played a Taclord who was a merchant. He just happened to be decent with a sword and clever at rousing his troops.

>> No.12043762

Never heard of a Taclord, what system is that?

Anyways, just put that question out there because I was wondering if anyone would play/play with a class useful only outside of combat to the point that it would be plausible that his backstory is that he hired you all as bodyguards.

>> No.12043797


4th edition Dungeons and Dragons, Taclord is the short way of saying "Tactical Warlord."

>> No.12043831

Meh, no fan of 4.e, but I'll stay friendly to prevent trollage.

So, Taclord might be a 3.5 bard with better BAB progression?

>> No.12043833

I had a vizier who acted like the typical one. He was a backstabbing, plotting little bastard.

Turns out he did it to make people think he was the real power so assassins and usurpers would direct attention away from the king. He also did it to root out traitors and other people who wanted to sell out the nation. Sort of like O'Brian from 1984 only good.

>> No.12043852

That kind of stupid possibility of subverting the game is why 4E > 3E.

>> No.12043863


Sort of, BAB doesn't really work the same way in 4e. It's more like a warrior who spends more effort on the strategizing and leading parts than hack-n-slash, giving bonuses and extra attacks to his allies.

>> No.12043866

>> No.12043874

Song of Ice and Fire spoilers:

In song of ice and fire the first vizier was the good guy, even through he tried to take the throne for himself. because the current king wasn't a real king as he was no his fathers trueborn child, anyway he got a new vizer that was as evil as him later.

>> No.12043877

So he "tricked" people into thinking the nation is evil (which is pretty dubious in itself) and then killed them for rebelling against evil. That's good?

>> No.12043878



I was talking 3.5, for the record.

>> No.12043880

The old guy died while taking fatty and wildling babby south right?

>> No.12043891

I was wondering what the hell you were talking about until I realized that Eddard Stark was the King's Hand for a whole book. Damn, I need to reread that series.

>> No.12043897

The Taclord can do a 'lazy build' where he focuses on giving other warriors attacks while forgoing his own. It's quite an effective build. Alternatively, you can build your Taclord to use a crossbow or bow instead of a sword, and focus again on buffing the party whilst taking the occasional potshot.

>> No.12043899

I don't think...

>> No.12043907

No that guy wasn't a vizier he was just a dude who refused the throne.

Which was a bad move on his part.

>> No.12043910

I just remember him being really sick and Fatty having to man the fuck up

>> No.12044015

Have a Celtic/Viking/Early Medieval Lowland Scotland/DEFINITELY EUROPEAN Barbarian rolled up. Any RP tips for if I end up in an Arabian setting?

>> No.12044070

Rape. Pillage. Burn.

>> No.12044091

Well duh, I wouldn't be asking this question except I'm a CG Barbarian. Anyhow, RP question was more among of lines 'how does he react to Arabian culture and customs, which he will no doubt find strange?'

Also, totally appropriate music for an Arabian campaign: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btoEgIlhbUc

>> No.12044111

How's this for a subversion; the city is in the grip of a tyrannical king, and his adviser is a hissing, soft-spoken snake of a man, and otherwise obvious power-behind-the-throne.

Turns out, he's trying to curb the ruler's fascistic streak and is just kind of creepy.

>> No.12044182


Well if you want historical ideas for inspiration?

Daylami/North Iranian Mercenary. Hairy, FUKKIN LOVES GARLIC (I can't believe that's a fact about them we know so well), prizes a brightly painted shield as much as his primary weapon, wields a spear that doubles as a javelin and a battle axe and doesn't afraid of anything.

The classic, Pre-Islamic Bedouin Hero. Think a Thief minus the thieving, but maintaining the dashing debonair spirit with a strong martial pride, "Chivalry" (Which is a bit tricky. I was reading a book about the time after Muhammad died and it mentioned Khalid ibn al-Walid, who is both a paragon of the chivalrous Arabian warrior and a dude who deflowered a virgin princess on the ground of a battlefield soaked in her tribe's blood), a womanizing zest for women, and a love of plunder and wealth. Also really big on poetry and a pride/knowledge in blood/ancestry.

The three ways you could motivate a Rashidun Arab army was to appeal to their sense of Islam (probably the weakest), appeal to their sense of "Arabs are fukkin awesomer than everyone else" (probably the second strongest), or appeal to their sense of plunder (the strongest). There's a saying I don't remember the jist of, but it was basically the monologue of an Arab Warrior at the time. It went like "Amongst the peoples of the world the Arabs are the most valiant. Amongst the Arabs the tribe of ______ is the most valiant. Amongst the tribe of _______ the clan of XYZ is the most valiant. Amongst that clan, the family of __________ is the most valiant. Amongst that family, I am the most valiant. Therefore, I am the most valiant warrior in the world".

>> No.12044371

Another option is the Pre and Post Islamic Merchant Arab, which is a synergy of a highly capitalist/mercantile spirit with that of a warrior/martial spirit. All of the first Rashidun Caliphs + Muhammad (except maybe for Ali) had a merchant background, apparently Umar having traveled to Rome and Persia but I never heard that before.

Some sort of a slave-warrior would also be a great choice, given how much they dominated the historical analogue to Arabian Nights (Even if it's inspired more by the Golden Age of the Abbasids with Harun Al-Rashid, they had slave-warriors back then).

In general I think there's a much stronger sense of the Adventurer dynamic with historical analogue of the Arabian Nights setting compared to the historical analogue for the usual suspects (Medieval Europe). I remember reading that argument with regards to the Druzhina of Russia, which were compared in behavior and culture more to the Muslims than to the highly feudalistic and "Sedentary" knight. Feudalism does exist (Generally called the Iqta' in this part of the world), but what I think is equally as prevalent is that whole adventurer spirit shared with the Druzhina but only with the Knight Errant of early Medieval Europe:

>> No.12044389

Well check out how the Swedish/Rus Vikings reacted to the Byzantines and the Arabs they traded with.

>> No.12044403

Sorry, slipped my mind.

>> No.12044466

>>Also, totally appropriate music for an Arabian campaign:

These are better.

>> No.12044469

>>You could more easily shift between employers (whose preferences would be dictated by perhaps their own ancestry and religious beliefs - Saladin favored Turks and Kurds over the Shi'ite loyalist Sudanese and Fatimid loyalist Armenians, Turkish Dynasties usually preferred Turks over anything else, ect.)

>>Places like India were held like we hold the Wild West or far-away Colonial territories - a place for one to visit to accumulate glory, wealth and fame, not really so much a place to conquer and stay there. Soldiers did end up staying, but that's more to the ability of India to conquer the conqueror than their own intentions - Babur pined like a BIG BABEH about the humidity of India and panged for the cool valleys and juicy melons of his home in Afghanistan.

>>A generally more 'flexible' hierarchy of society when it comes to a warrior. Outside of the Normans, the Condottieri or the Catalan Company you couldn't really expect a knight let alone a sergeant to rise up to a high position of power. But over in the Middle East it was quite common for those who were part of the slave-warrior system to rise fairly high. I know briefly of a guy who started off as some sort of Gardener for the Ottomans and ended up as the Grand vizier, or Baibars who was a Kipchak enslaved by the Mongols, sold as a slave and then quickly sold again because the master didn't like his appearance (fair skinned, fair haired, cataract over one of his blue eyes). He helped to defeat Saint Louis and led the defeat of the Mongols at Ain Jalut before becoming the Sultan of Egypt.

If you want ideas, try and read something like:
>>Amir Hamza / Hamzanama
>>Any of the books of Usama ibn Munqidh

>> No.12044495

Thought Byzantites were Rome 2.0

>> No.12044501

evidence that Vikings reached Baghdad


>> No.12044515


The more he's around in the Middle East the more he'll be milder in spirit. Usama mentions how Franks who newly arrived were a lot more bold and arrogant than those who had been there for awhile. He had been praying towards Mecca when a newly arrived Frank keeps pulling him and making him face Jerusalem, until the -Templars- (who he calls his -friends-) come and take the man away and apologize to Usama.

It's not saying he'd be all sunshine and lolipops political correctness, simply he'd see them as neighbors, rivals and human beings (If at times enemies) rather than agents of the Anti-Christ and Satan. He'd also probably start to develop an appreciation for light, harmless trappings of the Orient. I seem to recall it being mentioned how the Knights were somewhat envious of the flowing cloth sashes, shirts and turban wraps worn by the saracens and sought to emulate them (much to the dislike of their fellows back home). While I might be wrong in that regard, I think it's telling that stuff like the surcoat or the cloth shroud worn over the top/back/sides of some helmets developed after the Crusader States did, not before.

He would also find their "Feminine" ways (use of perfume, liking of scented or flavored beverages that isn't MEADMEADMEADMEADMEADMEAD, bright, colorful flowing cloths and for some even makeup) to be rather odd and effeminate.

>> No.12044541


>> No.12044548


Also a dominating cultural principle is the idea of privacy. Which as you can imagine might not cinch well with a boisterous, "We all get roaring drunk, sleep and maybe fuck in the same giant mead hall" viking.

>> No.12044553



Arabian traps?

>> No.12044563


>> No.12044564


>> No.12044571

Kind of- by the time of the Crusades, however, a lot of cultural fusions have taken place.
They're not as oriental as the saracens, but much more then the Franks

>> No.12044577

Pardon me, just passing through.

>> No.12044584

>> No.12044594

Cool Article Bro

He doesn't care much about who you worship, as long as it isn't an evil god. Other than that, excellent advice.

>He would also find their "Feminine" ways (use of perfume, liking of scented or flavored beverages that isn't MEADMEADMEADMEADMEADMEAD, bright, colorful flowing cloths and for some even makeup) to be rather odd and effeminate.

Sort of like what I think about weeaboos, hipsters, boybands, people who like pop music, emo faggots, Twilight fans and Archfaggot Bieber

>> No.12044599

>> No.12044633


No man, you're thinking Egypt now.

>> No.12044635

rolled 6, 3, 7, 2 = 18


>> No.12044647

>> No.12044649

Small time.

>> No.12044678


Try a poet/bard archetype, singing songs, solving riddles. Rumi, Hafiz, Omar Khayyam are good inspiration.

Traveling wise man and sage is good too; makes for a good wizard or cleric type, or other mystical sort (Mystic Theurge anyone?).
Puzzle solver, clever person, wise seer. You can draw from Hafiz' poetry for this one, if you go Cleric.

All-around good-luck-having (but honest) Aladdin types are also good choices besides thieves and royalty and politicians.

Also caravan guard.

>> No.12044685

WTF IS THAT THING!?!?!?!?!?!

>> No.12044686


I wouldn't think it unpossible. I know that in Afghanistan (up to the present day) and I believe Anatolian Ottoman Turkey there was a big thing about boy-love, with young dancing boys who basically look like women. I am not sure it was as popular in the Arabic world though it seems to have been in the Iranian and Turkish.

Mahmud of Ghazni for all his Idol-smashing seemed to love his clean shavened young slave warriors. A few anecdotes of him and Ayaz:
>>One day sultan Mahmud asks Ayaz whether he knows a king greater and more powerful than he. Ayaz answers, "Yes, I am a greater king than you." When the king asks for proof, he says, "Because even though you are king, your heart rules you, and this slave is the king of your heart."[3]

>>One day the Sultan and Ayaz were sitting together eating lunch. The sultan cut a slice of cucumber and gave it to Ayaz, who ate it with relish. A little later he gave another slice of cucumber to Ayaz and took one himself. But when Mahmud bit into the cucumber, he immediately spat it out as it tasted terrible — chalky and bitter. He glared at Ayaz and accused him of tricking him into eating the foul vegetable by pretending it was delicious. Ayaz answered, 'No, my sultan. It was delicious to me. I have received so many wonderful things from your hand, that whatever comes from you is sweet to me.'

"Arabian Traps" could conjure up some interesting character ideas. Perhaps a young lad, son of some military family of Arabs is more inclined towards the study of books, the writing of poetry and comfortable living in lieu of masculine martial pursuits. In the guise of running away to join the military to trick his father, he becomes a trap and joins a friend's harem. BUT THEN! Drama when the friend's elder brother, the firstborn, develops feelings for such fetching a 'woman'!

I should write yaoi.

>> No.12044712


>> No.12044719


Well, you certainly have the mindset for it.

>> No.12044749



>> No.12044751


Ahahaha I was really just being sarcastic there. If I can ever get off my ass to write fiction, it's going to be classic heroic epics. No homo (not that there's anything wrong with that!), just bro-mance at the most.

>>You're now imagining medieval bros.


>> No.12044763


>alone purgator
Captcha... don't be naughty.

>> No.12044766




>> No.12044829


>> No.12044831


I have no idea how good or bad this is, but I remember stumbling across it before.


>> No.12044868

>>My face when I remember the jist of 1,001 Nights is that a Sultan finds out his brother's wife gets nasty with a black slave that is pretty much an Ape, as does the rest of his concubines, so he resolves to kill every wife he takes after he copulates with them.

Arcana - Wings of Gabriel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgawyEH-5bQ

>> No.12044870

Aw, fuck. I don't even want to follow that like, do I?

>> No.12044894


Not sure. I just remember checking out the historical section on a manga website on a lark and found it. Odds are it'll be a generic prettyboy crapfest.

If you want a good one, try and check out Otoyomegatari, or "OH MY GOD SUCH PRETTY ART"

It's also got /ss/, which some will consider superior to a Trap.

>> No.12044921

Looks like everybrah in that picture is making a sanity check.

I wonder why....?

>> No.12044923


>>You will never get a taller, older Amazonian like Turkic wife to make you a tribal vest from rabbit fur.


>> No.12044934

>generic prettyboy crapfest
I don't even want to know

>> No.12044947

'straight shota', aka manchildren combining their current sex drive with their desire to be coddled bitches.

>> No.12044959

Well, I wouldn't be too disappointed...unless by 'taller' you meant 'of greater height than the average woman, but not of greater stature to you'

>> No.12045026

>Also a way to explain away the undesirable actions of a autocratic government without undermining the moral authority of the monarch to rule.

I remember the biography of a Moroccan who travelled to China and back during the 1400...he was involved in two revolutions against muslim kings. During one he ran awy to save his head before others ended that king's reign and during another he organized the army that killed the king.

Not a happy age at all.

>> No.12045037

I came buckets.

>> No.12045167


Ibn Battuta


Yeah too bad I like big, brawny, muscular men fucking the shit out of a dirty little whore. Analyze that for me, motherfucka. Is it a lack of masculinity on my part projecting myself into the men, or an abundance of feminity projecting myself into the little girl whose a whore?

>> No.12045206

I like lesbians. Lesbians are great.

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