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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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[ERROR] No.12037680 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Tell me /tg/

Is bad I miss the old times when things were simpler? When good guys were good and bad guys were bad?

Before Drizzt and all the I AM SO EDGY characters? I mean, I may sound like a total grognard, but I think most of today's "bad good guys" are like... don't know, like that stupid WWE "attitude" era. Being a bad guy is cool just because.

Hell, even in 40K that is the pinacle of Grimdark, good guys are still good! Space Marines don't go around killing civilians or being assholes just because. In fact I think the Empire's civilians must think of them as heroes.

But who knows, maybe GW will soon make a band of Chaos Space Marines that turn against chaos and becomew anti-heroes.

>> No.12037700

what, you mean like the Legion of the Damned?

>> No.12037702


>GW will soon make a band of Chaos Space Marines that turn against chaos and becomew anti-heroes.

That would be interesting

>> No.12037713


or the Sons of Malice?

>> No.12037715


Im sure he mean alpha legion...

>> No.12037716

>Is bad I miss the old times when things were simpler? When good guys were good and bad guys were bad?

Yes, because black-and-white world views are childish and stupid.

>Before Drizzt and all the I AM SO EDGY characters?

This is not an example of grey morality in action. Come the fuck on.

>> No.12037719

Yeah, anti-heroes were interesting subversions of expectations once. Now they are cliche. And once every character becomes an anti-hero, there's really no reason for most settings: people mostly read for the heroism, with an occasional anti-hero just mixing things up enough to keep it interesting.

>> No.12037726


These are insane, so don't really count

>> No.12037730

I'm positive this is copypasta.

>> No.12037753


>Sons of Malice

Didn't these guys raped and ate a bunch of Adepta Sororitas and then made war to the Imperium?

>> No.12037756

Maybe they should make Orcs that are just misunderstood Indians and actually sort of attractive?

>> No.12037758

the fluff for Malal is actually kinda neat

>> No.12037759


I am postive you are copypasta

>> No.12037766

>Yes, because black-and-white world views are childish and stupid.
No, characters who hold onto principles in a harsh world nurture a need for hope. Characters who are harsh in a harsh world just give us a fictional world that fulfills none of our needs, and that's as easy to hate as the world we already live in. And we at least don't choose to spend time dwelling on the worst of the real world.

>> No.12037771

But, I want to be original. :(

>> No.12037775

The problem is that people can't write characters. Most "well-meaning extremists," for example, are more extremist than well-meaning. That can be okay, if you WANT him to be a crazy. However, it doesn't explain why people follow him if they know what he's up to.

You can understand why people follow a complete monster (pic related); they're monsters themselves. But well-intentioned extremists and gray villains in general demand somewhat more sane followers.

>> No.12037776

Shitspam about morality.

Fuck you.

>> No.12037779

It is, but it's a conversation that's alright to have nonetheless.

As for the topic? I like grey morality. I just don't like how a lot of grey morality seems to focus on darker shades; nobody's perfect, but there are still good-natured people who will stand up to help others in need. Expand on what makes them noble despite or even because of their darker sides, don't wallow in the dark like a 14 year old and think just because you're a slightly brighter shade of dark that's enough to be interesting.

>> No.12037786

>Chaos Space Marines that turn against chaos and becomew anti-heroes.

Rare as fuck but not unheard of. The standard punishment/ reinitiation process for such chapters is something called a penitent crusade in which the Imperium says something ludicrously hard like "go kill all the xenos on the eastern rim. The chapter will then proceed to go and kill all the xenos on the eastern rim. If the chapter doesn't survive its test then they were proven loyal. If they complete this test then they are proven loyal.

It's usually something outrageous though so by the time chapters actually complete their crusade they're at a fraction of their original strength and a few centuries older.

Mind you this has never happened to SERIOUSLY chaos corrupted chapters, but rather chapters that went renegade or might have dabbled in a bit of the occult. Don't expect a daemon prince to come out of the eye of terror begging forgiveness.

>> No.12037792


Source on pic?

Human x elf couples are win

>> No.12037806

Record of Lodoss War, Parn and Deedlit.

>> No.12037812


Record of the Lodoss War. For all your 1st ed D&D needs.

Also my favorite view of elves, that and Rune Soldier Louie

>> No.12037837


>Don't expect a daemon prince to come out of the eye of terror begging forgiveness.

I think that is what OP was saying.

Daemon prince turns good and fights against Chaos with its own weapons. Since is a daemon prince the Imperium consider him an enemy anyways.

But still he gets in a love triangle with a beutiful Eldar and a sexy but tough Adeptas.

Adeptas: "But tell me your name Daemon Prince! I never got to thank you"

Good Daemon Prince: "And you'll never need to"

>> No.12037841


sauce on pic?

>> No.12037855


>> No.12037865

Record of Lodoss War, were dwarves are just dwarves, and elves are just elves.

Because it was heavily influenced by if not based on OD&D.

Is it bad I miss the days were elves were elves, dwarves were dwarves and humans were superior to everything?

>> No.12037866


>> No.12037880

Uh.... its from this show called the Simpsons. In Soviet Russia where you live it may be called Obese Capitalist American Pigdogs.

>> No.12037893


I'm sorry human, I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being a Spellcaster a Fighting Man and a Priest all in one.

>> No.12037894

That post was clearly linked to the OP

>> No.12037899


It was a replay of the Parn's player's campaign I think.

>> No.12037952

I guess the problem is partially what >>12037719 said, and partially that if you make everyone a jerk, you run the risk of people not giving a shit about your story because there's no meaningful conflict. Of course, that doesn't matter in a game, but if it's something story-driven that's another story.


I'm sure this is what the creator of Dominic Deegan thinks his orcs are.

>> No.12040192


>> No.12042285

Sometimes a more cynical and dark hero makes his struggle all the more interesting.
Whats more interesting to watch, a uncorruptible psudo-medieval superman, who always does the right thing, always saves everyone, always gets the girl and, without so much as a single mistake, manages to change the world for the better every time he claps his hands and goes to work.
Or just a man, a man who once belived all that Hero shit and now just...well, he wants to give up on people, he's seen what people are, they're selfish, nasty, they're bastards at heart. But he can't give in on them and, when push comes to shove, will try to do the right thing, even though he talks a good game of 'I'm a heartless asshole'...he's flawed, he's human, he fucks up, sometimes he'll fail, sometimes he'll end up doing the compltly wrong thing, he smokes like a chimney, drinks to forget the world he's in and secretly wants to keep punching these bastards long after they've gone down...because they deserve it.
But he'd die in a second to save an innocent life. And one day, probably will.
Is it easier to be a good man when you have no doubts and always win, or to be a good man when you know that you're only human and stand alone between the darkness and the innocent.

>> No.12042362

This is why. Because it's easy to be good when its easy to be good and always clear cut. It's much more interesting to be good when being good is hard, screws you over and no one will ever thank you for it.

>> No.12042374

You're all faggots.

I'll just be playing games in worlds where there are good people, bad people, bad people doing good, good people doing bad, bad people thinking they do good, good people thinking they do bad, bad people thinking they do good while they do bad, good people thinking they do bad while they do good, bad people who think they do bad while they do good, good people who think they do good while they do bad...

You know, like real life?

>> No.12042376

The real world's already like this.

If you want to see this sort of thing, just turn on the news.

>> No.12042380

You people should go read Berserk.

Got it spot-on.

>> No.12042386

>band of Chaos Space Marines that turn against chaos and becomew anti-heroes.
Written and drawn by Rob Liefeld. You know you want it.

>> No.12042400

>Warhammer comic made by Americans and not brits
>Out of all Americans, you pick Liefield


>> No.12042423


A Space Marine's manly scream?

>jezus heauxes

>> No.12042428

That´s why I like Final Fantasy Tactics so much.

The main character is a moralfag who has to struggle to do good, while everywhere around him people are backstabbing him and each other non-stop.

>> No.12042429

And Deedlit was a DMPC, Parn being the DM's boyfriend. The OVA really shows little reason for them to fall for eachother, and Parn is continuously promoted further as a hero even with his constant ineptitude and Lawful Stupid behaviour. Sure it's all nice and old-fashioned, but it also makes some people cringe nowadays.

>> No.12042454

I kind of feel bad for this, but the deeper Guts sinks in the shit, the more I like it.

All his new friends? I'd love to see them burn.

(inb4 someone posts a picture of Schrierge crying)

>> No.12042486

And Parn was clearly gay for Chestnuts.

>> No.12042489


>> No.12042492

>The OVA really shows little reason for them to fall for eachother
virgin spotted

there isn't a "reason" why people fall for each other, it just happens

>> No.12042504

>Record of Lodoss War was created in 1986 by Group SNE as a Dungeons & Dragons "replay" serialized in the Japanese magazine Comptiq. Replays are not novels, but transcripts of RPG sessions, meant to both hold the interest of readers and convey the events that took place. They have proven to be popular, even to those who do not play role-playing games but are fans of fiction (including fantasy fiction). Similar to light novels, many characters and parties in replays have become popular as characters of anime. An example of such a character is the female elf Deedlit in Record of Lodoss War, who was played by science fiction novelist Hiroshi Yamamoto during the RPG sessions.

>The popularity of the Record of Lodoss War replays was such that the Dungeon Master Ryo Mizuno started to adapt the story into some of the earliest Japanese-language domestic high fantasy novels in 1988.

The more you know.

>> No.12042516


>Whats more interesting to watch, a uncorruptible psudo-medieval superman, who always does the right thing
>always saves everyone, always gets the girl and, without so much as a single mistake, manages to change the world for the better every time he claps his hands and goes to work.
That's another thing entirely. There's absolutely no reason a Good good guy can't fail, smoke like a chimney and have his flaws.

>Anaïs: phirrapp
What, captcha?

>> No.12042521

So, replays are pretty much those after-action reports in White Dwarf magazine?

>> No.12042526

>>In fact I think the Empire's civilians must think of them as heroes.
>>I think the Empire's civilians
>>the Empire's
For fuck sake it's "The Imperium", why doesn't anyone ever know?

>> No.12042529


>> No.12042539

Must be all the asbestos from the Twin Towers dust ruining his higher brain functions.


>> No.12042548

Record of Lodoss war is a terrible example as the guys from Malmö are not straigth up evil. They venerate chaos and the pursuit of one's desires which indeed leads many to evil but not all of them.

>> No.12042570

I have not played alot of DnD, or any Pen and paper for that matter... (I played a true neutral rogue.) I've played 4 sessions, and would play more if the others weren't busy hipsters with social lives.

However a new chance presents itself with different people, and here's what I'm going for.
I want to play a real goodie twoshoes lawful good necromancer. Is this possible?

I read that "raising dead" is an inherently evil act, so I was thinking that I'd only raise dead temporarily and when absolutely necessary. I'd command the undead to do good. After I have used undead, I must release them, rebury their remains and atone somehow by doing good.

I was thinking people could be assholes and whatnot, but I would try my hardest never ever to stray from principles. Except that I believe the soul has left people's bodies, so what does it matter if I borrow the bodies for good? (Or something like that.)

>> No.12042582

Great man.

You stop thinking by the rules like a tool, but you're crafting a character, like a writer, like an artist.

I like you kid.

>> No.12042613


Quite frankly, the authors of the various Dungeons and Dragons books had no idea on whether undead specifically and negative energy in general should be inherently evil or not and offered contradictory views in the many splats they put out, so I think it's safe to ignore just about everything they wrote and come to a decision yourself.

>> No.12042617

But is there anything I should be aware of? I was thinking of hiding my necromancer powers from the rest of the party. Be a reaaaaally nice guy ALL THE FREAKING TIME, and suddenly when we're in a real pinch, I'll be all "I use raise dead on those corpses".

It'll be wonderful if everyone was just all "WTF!? He's a necromancer? Should we kill him?"

>> No.12042618

>Yes, because black-and-white world views are childish and stupid.
I actually enjoy the childishly good heroes, because it's so unlikely anyone in real life would continue to see the world the way they do after going through they shit they have to go through, being heroes and all. I even like the hero who manages to convince his enemy that there's a better way, after defeating him.

Though I personally prefer the more morally ambiguous heroes who aren't beyond committing small atrocities for the greater good. But by that I don't mean Ozymandias-levels of ambiguity, where you kill 15 million to avert nuclear war instead of trying to find a diplomatic solution. More the kind where you kill the joker (even if he drops his weapons and surrenders) instead of simply locking him back up in arkham for the nth time.

>> No.12042630

Yeah, I was thinking of just using IC arguments in conjunction with my constant feeling of guilt and need for atonement to justify what I'm doing. I'm sure the DM won't be a dick about it and probably inhouse some things.

>> No.12042636

Well, Ozzy did have a point, it was beyond diplomatics.

There really WAS no other option for the world. That was the whole deal of Watchmen. That's why everyone except Dr. Manatthan was crying. Hell, even Rorschach was crying.

>> No.12042641

We seemed to pull it off in the real world. Clearly it was possible.

>> No.12042652

>There really WAS no other option for the world.
How about Dr. Manhattan just kills all hte retarded leadres who'd rather choose nuclear apocalypse over diplomacy? Or just remove the nuclear weapons before they can launch? Or just threaten them into diplomacy? Or just anything at all? I never understood his character. He gets involved in the vietnam war, murdering tons of soldiers, but doesn't bother to sort out this whole impending nuclear apocalypse deal by simply getting rid of the madmen responsible?

>> No.12042657

Did you read even the comic?

>> No.12042660


I like how these people are presuming that everyone roleplays to plug their ears and ignore reality. Most people aren't so mentally crippled that they can't deal with a world where good and evil aren't solid, clear cut sides. People are diverse and complicated things. If this terrible truth is too much to bear then you've got bigger problems than not liking the way RPG themes are going these days.

>> No.12042662


Well, the way I look at it, raising unintelligent undead is a morally neutral act, as it simply reanimates a corpse using Negative Energy without recalling the soul, while raising most intelligent undead would be evil, as they universally trap the soul of the deceased and warp it into evil. There are a few exceptions, wherein the raised creature isn't itself evil and the permission of the soul is first gained, such as with Necropolitans, but those instances are few and far between.

The short answer is, if you're raising zombies or skeletons, that's morally neutral. If you're raising just about anything else, that's pretty evil. Similarly, channeling Negative Energy isn't evil in and of itself, but is often used for evil ends.

Your character may view his actions as justified in an unjust world, he may loathe himself for using necromantic powers, or he may see absolutely nothing wrong with going graverobbing and creating an army of skeletons to put out the fire in the orphanage. You have a lot of options.

>> No.12042664

Because he was beginning to stop caring.

Remember how he let the Comedian shoot that pregnant Vietnamese hooker?

He stopped caring about people in Vietnam.

>> No.12042665


Forgot my pic.

>> No.12042689

Um, guys, I think that you are missing the point of RPG's.
The real world may be gray, but that doesn't mean that the fantasy world can't be black and white. If Superman type characters are childish to you, then don't play them. If Superman is what you want to play, well more power to you.
You guys are trying to say that there is only one way to play, everything else is stupid or wrong. I have played both kinds of characters and some that were in between. And I had fun doing it. That is all that matters. Playing a game for fun.

>> No.12042698

Oh, sorry, forgot where I was.
You are all fags.

>> No.12042708

Thats the way I intend to play it, I would never command anything that has free will or entraps a soul. I assume that's sort of like a wight, spectre or a ghost.

>> No.12042711

Did you miss the opening post? The OP was saying that he wants it all one way; simple, black and white objective morality. Many people responding are saying "no thanks, that's boring."

>> No.12043450

Both Parn and Deedlit are so bland and uninteresting

>> No.12045285

Ogre Battle Saga here, FFT ain't got shit on me.
>ochader War
Fuck yeah captcha, FIGHT IT OUT!

>> No.12045302

you shut your whore mouth.

>> No.12045442

There was a story I'd heard once, about how the ork players all got together during a major tournament and decided 'change of plans' which resulted in a forge world being overrun and GW had to scramble to write it into canon.

Do you think this could be done with a thousand sons army?

>> No.12045465

>I actually enjoy the childishly good heroes,

>> No.12045510

You fuckin' tell 'em boss.

>> No.12045543

Thousand Sons = Bros.

>> No.12045546

i dont mind to see evil guys with some good and good guys with some evil.

The thing im fucking sick about are "good" guys being psychos and badguys being monsters, but you know better, in the grim dark grim future theres only grim dark.

How i wish Brighthammer were official...

>> No.12045549

Yeah, pretty much.

As far as being bleak as fuck? Yeah, basically.

>> No.12045572

>Space Marines don't go around killing civilians or being assholes just because.

Unless you are a completely harmless sentient alien species. Then enjoy picking your children's skull fragments out of your immolated wife's skin.

>> No.12045588


there's an interesting section about that in a 3.5 splatbook somewhere... I guess Libris Mortis or Complete Arcane or something like that...

>> No.12045627

Best character in the series.

>> No.12045646

You haven't read very far into 40k. Protagonists are largely decent enough people. Well, by the standards of 40k. True monsters are few and far between.

>> No.12046062

I prefer Ghim. But the emotionally hurted Orson because he can't declare his love to his forever companion Shiris is interesting too.

>> No.12046270

Slayers had the best non-Good characters in a DND related setting.

>> No.12046302


>> No.12046452

his death scene made me tear up a little

>> No.12046555

...who is actually Chaotic Good. Surprising, I know.

>> No.12047096


Most of the Slayers are Good, too. Amelia is definitely Lawful Good, you could make a strong argument Lina is Chaotic Good (she doesn't strictly *have* to put her ass on the line nearly as many times as she does, and most adventures end with her hardly making a penny so greed certainly isn't as big of a motivator as she claims), Zel is Neutral at worst, and no way is Gourry more evil than Zel (in the anime he's so dumb he probably lacks an alignment, while in the novels he's Neutral Good).

>> No.12047539



>> No.12047548

Sylphiel is probably Neutral Good. Xelloss is most likely Neutral Evil. Zangulus is probably Lawful Neutral, and Martina,probably Chaotic Neutral.

Filia, I'm guessing Lawful Good.

>> No.12047587

>Filia, who the fuck cares

>> No.12047762

ok he was defiantly an evil bastard, i wish the anime had more episodes

>> No.12047763

Louie was here, Parn's a loser

>> No.12047788

Wait, Drizzt is edgy? He's kind of a generic good guy. He is exactly what you're pining for in your post. Have you even read any of the books?

>> No.12048228

Do you want edgy heroes? I'm drunk enough so I'll tell you about edgy.
On some course back in high school, there was an assignment to write a fictional short story of whatever you wanted. I wrote a fantasy story with probably the most edgiest hero I could think of because I wanted to write something awesome and not something artsy and boring.

So it was about this guy who was destined to become some terrible bloodlusty evil overlord. But he decided that he will go wage war and destroy the shit out of all the tyrants that rule city states and like that, before he goes completely insane. And he asks a blacksmith to make him the most stereotypical evil overlord armor ever out of black metal with crazy jagged spikes everywhere. And the blacksmith tells him that the black metal makes for a shit armor but he just doesn't give a fuck motherfucker, as long as the armor is the most terrifying suit of armor ever made.
So the "hero" of the story goes and slaps the shit out the armies of bandits and unjust rulers and the like everywhere, so he can sate his bloodlust on something that deserves it instead of going full overlord and oppressing peasants. And he used a single bladed battle axe because "there is no need for a second blade if you only swing once" or something as badass as that. Also no one ever remembers what his real name anymore and he's just know as "The Decapitator" and nothing more. And he's like an undefeatable champion of destruction that sweeps all over the lands with his evergrowing army while all the peasants are like "holy shit this guy is like, crazy. And evil."
In the end Decapitator fights the army of an evil wizard, who's the biggest tyrant ruler there is in the generic fantasy land the story takes place in.


>> No.12048250

And he's fighting a Lawful Good paladin guy who wants to stop his rampage even at the cost of the tyrant wizard getting away with his sheningans, while they are standing on a mountain of corpses of the soldiers the Decapitator has already killed in the battle, and then the paladin stabs the Decapitator in the heart through his armor made of shitty metal but he just rages so hard that he punches a stone in his chest to clog the wound and keeps fighting. But then the paladin cuts his head off, but he still is raging so hard that he grabs one of the spires of his evil overlord helmet and fights with one hand while keeping his head on his shoulders with his other hand.
And then the wizard himself comes to kill him and accidentally incinerates himself, both armies, the paladin and the Decapitator alltogether with his spell because he was so scared shitless of Decapitator JUST NOT DYING.
And the moral of the story was that it was all in vain because there will be just more tyrants after the guy went and killed them all and everyone died for nothing.

And you can bet it was a cool story bro. I got an A-

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