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11263311 No.11263311 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Given what /tg/ would think to be a feasible power source for a Mecha in a semi-real setting, how big does /tg/ think the explosion of the core (not a hit that disables the unit, but a core hit that leads to meltdown) would be?

>> No.11263331

Sauce on pic

>> No.11263337

>>11263331

MGLN: StrikerS, IIRC.

>> No.11263359

Aaaand now Kenny Loggins is stuck in my head. Thanks a lot.

>> No.11263369

>>11263359

>Implying that SHOULDN'T be stuck in your head.

>> No.11263383

the middle space is for vivio

>> No.11263386

#1: Mecha will never work in a semi-realistic setting
#2: A semi-realistic setting would not include engines that cause the entire vehicle to become a bomb.
#3: To answer the SPIRIT of your question, batteries are the most feasible power source, and would not explode, except maybe with battery acid.

>> No.11263413

>>11263311

Core Meltdown? Pretty fucking big, although you'd be worrying more about the fallout than the explosion, most likely. A mobile reactor wouldn't have as much fissile material in it as, say, a power plant or something.

This said, chances of a mech sustaining that sort of hit and *not* being able to just quench and shut down are low. Meltdowns would be incredibly fucking rare.

>> No.11263416

>>11263386

Semi-real refers to the kinds of robots.

Super, semi-super, semi-real, Real.
It's a sliding scale of FUCK YEAR to Grimdark.

>> No.11263449

>>11263416
You do not understand mecha. "real" flavor mecha are not automatically Grimdark. The most grimdark mecha are entirely unrealistic. "real" means that children do not pilot mecha powered by their teenaged angst. And one of the most famous grimdark mecha series is exactly that.

Also, we need a size scale on these mecha. Battletech is the largest "semi-real" that mecha get.

>> No.11263450

I suppose if your robots used hydrogen-based fuel cells, there could be a chance of an explosion, but it wouldn't be much worse than if the robot ran on plain old gasoline. It would be interesting if some kind of anti-mech weapon were develop that directly targeted the power plant and could cause it to overheat or explode, though, would make an interesting plotpoint.

>> No.11263454

>>11263416
Assuming "mecha" means "mean-shaped piloted robots" then it's still not feasible using realistic technology due to the weakness of materials. Even if you made it from the strongest metals known to man it wouldn't be able to go very fast and it would have countless structural weaknesses and be energy inefficient compared to, say, a tank or even a helicopter.

>> No.11263456

Well, meltdown is not a core explosion. IIRC, reactors are designed VERY differently from warheads, which is why they melt down. That's simply the point where the heat output of the core exceeds the melting point of the materials composing and containing it. It then melts through said materials.
Your mecha would simply be dripping radioactive materials around. These would probably then be too dispersed for proper neutron propagation, and thus cool down.

>> No.11263468
File: 45 KB, 600x424, submarine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11263468

>>11263386
Yes, you surely wouldn't have some sort of undersea-going vessel that carries various types of munitions to be powered by a nuclear reactor, or even house giant tanks of diesel fuel, as both of those could prove dangerous.

Not in a semi-realistic setting, and definitely not in real life.

>> No.11263479

>>11263454
/He is referring to the "style" of Mecha. Gurren Lagann is Super. Battletech is Real. Gundam is halfway. Its about the style and flavor, not the technological realism

>> No.11263483

>>11263413

This said, you'd need to explain the exact conceit the particular universe is using to explain it's giant robots. Mechwarrior, where you're basically just piloting around a giant nuclear reactor with myomer, you get nuclear meltdown explosions when it happens. Gundam, you're looking at Minofski particles for containing a fusion reactor, which would have a correspondingly larger blast if the containment failed.

So yeah. Depends.

>> No.11263490

>>11263311
Man, I went on a trip with my sister and her kids to the beach last year... I ended up having to share a bed with my niece. She's only five years younger than me, that image is exactly what it was like the entire time.

>> No.11263493

>>11263468
Submarines are not direct combat vehicles, and are designed to not be anywhere near enemy units.

>> No.11263509

Semi real you say
Well nuclear fusion is real or soon will be when get containment down and the semi can be miniturisation
meltdown make chernobyl look like picnic

>> No.11263511

>>11263386
>#1: Mecha will never work in a semi-realistic setting
and if they can because some miraculous advancements - they won't be present because mechs will always be outclassed by tracked vechicles and helos

>> No.11263517

>>11263479
Oh. Well then use whatever the fuck you want. How is this even a question?

>> No.11263540

A diesel-powered combustion engine would be more realistic. A nuclear engine wouldn't provide the torque necessary for bipedal movement.

>> No.11263541

>>11263511
Yeah, but what fun is that? Isn't that what games are about? Fun?

>> No.11263579

>>11263359
The version sung by a French dude playing Lock On (or whatever that game was) and doing silly flat spins and supersonic dives.

HIIIIIIIIIIGHWAAAAAAAAAY TOOOOOOOO ZAAAAAAAAAAAA DAANGER ZOOOOOOOOOONE

>> No.11263583

>>11263468
a nuclear sub NEEDS that ability to sit on the bottom of the ocean for 3 months without moving. A nuclear sub is also the safest place to be during a war, as they are next to undetectable. And even if catastrophic meltdown did occur on a sub it won't be a huge 'ohshit' sign to your own troops because subs don't operate in squads. Any land going machine does.

>> No.11263602

>>11263540

Depends on how, exactly, that movement is achieved.

Battletech mechs run off of electrically activated myomer "muscles", so I can see the nuclear engine being more feasible there. With Diesel, you also run into issues of fuel. There ARE examples of both in setting, but Combat mechs are pretty much universally nuke run though.

>> No.11263619

>>11263311
Mechas could be feasible, but they'll end up being a lot smaller and a lot less man shaped if they are to be believed to exist. Probably more similar to small pill-boxes with legs. The advantage of a mecha would be that the legs could possibly make it more versatile in terms of movement.

>> No.11263627

>>11263541
You know what's also fun? Big titted clown girls serving free ice cream in a bouncy castle. And that's also not combat viable.

Also - holy shit, do you find helicopter gunships boring?

>> No.11263633
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11263633

>>11263541
>tanks and helicopters aren't fun

>> No.11263636

>>11263483
Actually, the optional Battletech rules for reactor explosiosn are expressively stated to be unrealistic and purely cinematic. The worst that could happen if you actually breach a BT fusion reactor would be that the air rushing into it would rapidly cool it down (the inside of a fusion reactor is normally a vacuum with the reaction held in place by magnetic containment fields) and cause the reaction to die.

Well, and said air would heat up rather spectacularily and turn the reactor breech into the mother of all flamethrowers for a second or two. No radiation either, deuterium and helium fusion don't create that shit.

>> No.11263649
File: 102 KB, 530x353, hind cockpit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11263649

>>11263627
This.

Helicopter gunships are made of win.

>> No.11263651

>>11263483

Why?

Because's the fucking future, that's why.

>> No.11263656

Mecha will be limited to power armor, anything bigger is silly when you consider Earth's high gravity.

>> No.11263674

>>11263619
even smaller. Power armour capable of withstanding repeated 14.5mm hits [or even stronger] would be awesome. Just keep it under 2.5 metre tall so it can use terrain, and as light as possible.

>> No.11263676

>>11263656

What about Mars?

>> No.11263677

>>11263633

They aren't quite as fun as aiming a sniper rifle that chambers a round as big as you are down range and blowing three AI controlled Jets to hell. (most war is handled by AI now).

>> No.11263688

Some sort of turboshaft engine running on J5. Explosion would be dangerous to anyone inside the mech but wouldn't cause a huge blast. J5 is basically just kerosene.

>> No.11263697

>>11263677
Sounds like a weird use for an artillery piece to me.

>>11263676
Maybe? But then you'd have Mars' high wind speeds to deal with. But if it were terraformed then it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

>> No.11263706

>>11263656

Actual science involved in Mecha?

What IS WRONG WITH YOU!

>> No.11263724

>>11263706
I don't fucking know man
All this pragmatism and logic is a curse

>> No.11263727

>>11263649
>>11263633
>>11263627
I wouldn't say boring, but certainly more so than giant motherfucking robots.

>> No.11263729

>>11263649
Ahhh, the glorious Hind. How can something so ugly be so beautiful?

>> No.11263755

>>11263729

The fragmentation it suffers from the grapple blade from La Roja Espada 'Light Assault Mecha' striking it all the way through is VERY beautiful.

>> No.11263774

>>11263724

Seriously, the most 'realistic' Mecha still usually tells the actual science of War to go the fuck away. It's about being a fucking badass and making up your own science.

>> No.11263787

>>11263727
Giant Robots are for OMFG AWESOMESAUCE.

Tanks and helicopters are for a slightly more down-to-earth kind of awesome.

>> No.11263789

>>11263583
What would be more interesting would be nuclear bombers. Massive airplanes that would be in air for months at a time and that could hold huge amounts of bombs fuel at a time. One could hold postion over a nation as a mobile air base in a sense, keeping all air units fueled or a squadron could very well level a smaller nation. Now, the problem is these things are a lot less practical in a post-cold war world, we don't have bombers flying around Russia 24/7 anymore. Also the effects on crew being in the air for so long would have to be taken into account, as would the problem of having find air fields and bases large enough to store these things as the planes would have to be massive. Now these things could seem like delicious targets, but they'd probably also be able to fly really high.

>> No.11263800

>>11263386

>batteries don't explode

I smirked.

Anyway, batteries are terrible. Any power storage medium with energy density that isn't, you know, some kind of sick joke is going to be highly reactive. Why? The reactivity of the 'guts' of the battery is where you get power from. A real good battery is, chemically, a lot like a bomb. Aluminum-air batteries (a non-rechargeable kind of battery) derive power from oxidizing aluminum. If you speed up that reaction, you get fire. How about molten salt batteries? They're not terribly explosive, but they do happen to have a minimum operating temperature in the neighborhood of 500 degrees. This is one of the better secondary cells out there, pound for pound and dollar for dollar.

As for a vehicle or in this case, a big robot, for it to have any kind of appreciable range it's going to have to have a lot of energy - chemical, nuclear, or whatever - stored somewhere. Think about what kind of fireball a full tank of gas makes. If your batteries can cook off (or if you're using something else like regenerative fuel cells, which actually contain flammable fuel) you'll get something like that. For more exotic materials (gamma-fluorescent isomers as a power source, and no that's not technobabble) you might expect maybe something like a few hundred pounds of conventional explosive. No Hiroshima-scale shit, that's just silly.

>> No.11263817

> nuclear reactor
> explosions

I don't think you know how this works, Tim.

>> No.11263819

>>11263774

Yah. Seriously. About the best about it is Battletech, but that's still kinda iffy. Even if in theory Mechs are a very small portion of the forces fielded, in actual gameplay they tend to be the main focus.

>> No.11263825
File: 577 KB, 1280x720, aigaion01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11263825

>>11263774
>>11263789
Aigaion.

I like this fucker. Because you can ALMOST believe it could be built. It's a giant flying wing, and it moves fairly slowly given its sheer mass, and it takes several dozen engines to keep it moving, and it needs six KC-10 tanker aircraft to refuel. And what do you get for all that? What amounts to a relatively small aircraft carrier, and a cruise missile battery, with some AAA smattered all over it.

The only real problem I can think of is how the fuck you'd launch it.

>> No.11263836

Mecha are the katanas of the warmachine world.

>> No.11263841

>>11263755
>The fragmentation it suffers from the [FUCKINGVERBALSTATIC] is VERY beautiful.
translate.

>>11263677
>They aren't quite as fun as aiming a sniper rifle that chambers a round as big as you are down range and blowing three AI controlled Jets to hell.
>rifle
>jets
Fuck me, the Gypsy King himself is here. You know it's next to impossible to hit a jet on a attack run with anything that goes slower than Mach2? Considering that AI controlled jets don't have to care about the squishy bits inside hitting one with a fucking GUN is not great marksmanship, but precognition, using the Force and voodoo at the same time.

>> No.11263855

>>11263800
>batteries don't explode

I can reassure that they do. I once left a rechargeable mouse in its cradle and the safety circuit malfunctioned. No explosion, but the batteries literally MELTED inside the mouse. As in they became a liquid.

Also, I have put small watch batteries into a fire and listened to them go BANG. They do.

>> No.11263873

>>11263311
Meltdown != Explosion

A nuclear reactor suffering a meltdown might cause the entire robot and everything within 10 metres of it to turn into a worthless slag-heap and also spew out a massive quantity of dangerous fission products, but an explosion is fairly unlikely.

>> No.11263904

You have mecha that work, are fully functioning, and have a power source that lasts for days.

I have a tank.

I win because my munitions capabilities far exceed yours, my armour far exceeds yours, and my availability far exceeds yours.

tl;dr even if all realistic concessions are made for mechs, actual war machines still work better.

>> No.11263921

>>11263789
would look great, but won't happen. Huge risk, huge cost, huge target, easy to detect.

>>11263825
>The only real problem I can think of is how the fuck you'd launch it.
construct it in LEO with a heinlein-style shell for insertion into the atmosphere. It doesn't take off, it doesn't land. It couldn't.

>> No.11263931
File: 35 KB, 300x320, htre3-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11263931

Nuclear Air Turbine, the most compact power source currently invented is essentially an unshielded nuclear reactor that uses an open coolant loop with the atmosphere as the coolant.

A 1 ton unit has the energy output of the main powerplant on an aircraft carrier.

It's also ridiculously dangerous for anyone near it since it's blowing out contaminated air and radioactive particles out of it's exhaust. When turned on it's instantly lethal to anyone who can see the turbine.

>> No.11263941

>>11263825
Giant Slingshot. But seriously, it looks like it could have been built on the water if the "mouth" could be closed.

>> No.11263954

>>11263904

Or...you die because you're in a mook vehicle. It's a fucking Mecha game, what did you THINK was going to happen?

>>11263841

Targeting systems. Mecha > Non Important Character pilotted Fighter in Mecha games. I don't think you read the post about reality meaning nothing in Mecha. You've come to the wrong place to discuss realism!

>> No.11263956

>>11263931
Unmanned drones get wet at the mention of this.

>> No.11263967

>>11263931
God the russians must use these all the time.

>> No.11263979

>>11263855
Batteries don't really explode, they combust like motherfuckers though. The explosion you hear from batteries when they are thrown into fires or dangerously overcharged is pressure built up inside the battery causing the casing to burst open.

>> No.11263982

>>11263954
Welcome to /tg/ where realism is just as important as the circlejerk of faggotry you call mecha.

>> No.11263989

>>11263825
>it needs six KC-10 tanker aircraft to refuel.
Ah, but that is where a nuclear reactor would come in. The ship could be massive enough to house one (and hopefully in the future we'll be able to make them much smaller) it would never need refueling and could have nigh indefinite fly time being restricted only by the need of the pilots and perhaps ammunition. This could also mean it could be the perfect refueling station, as it doesn't actually need to use the fuel its carrying and it could carry a lot.

Also, your picture gave me a great idea on how to solve the "no place to land the fucker" issue. It could, maybe, be designed to land on water and instead of keeping them at air force bases we would keep them at naval bases.

Of course this is all way off in the future and the current political climate and realities of asymmetric warfare really don't call for this kind of hardware. Ah, how I long for the cold war and the good old U.S.S.R.

>> No.11263998

>>11263982

Engineering degree working out well for you, fa/tg/uy? Or are you just an armchair general?

>> No.11263999
File: 553 KB, 1760x990, 1267519215724.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11263999

/m/an here. Gundam is Real. The amount of faux science used to justify the mecha is what determines whether or not it is a Real or Super (And there are only two categories; making it a scale is a matter of choice but it's not necessarily the most common form of reckoning.) not their capabilities.

More importantly, Front Mission's Wanzers, Gasaraki's Tactical Armor, and VOTOMS Armored Trooper are higher on the Real scale than either of those, if you want to actually use it as a scale.

Super are robots which don't even bother pretending to be realistic and shoot huge arms and drills at you while the pilot yells attack names at the top of his lungs. Real are military hardware.

>> No.11264012

>>11263931
I want one

>> No.11264021

>>11263989
Actually, AFAIK, Aigaion does have a nuclear reactor in it. But it still needs jet engines to fly, because the only other option is propellers, which are just out of the fucking question it'd take MILES of prop, or the aforementioned nuclear thermal jets, which would spew fallout across square miles of ocean and the surrounding shoreline.

>> No.11264034

>>11263982

This is /tg/. Realism is the least of our fucking concerns. We play Warhammer 40K, for crying out loud - and it is awesome.

>> No.11264045

>>11263999
You're not on 4chan anymore, son. You're on /tg/.

>> No.11264046

>>11263931
Only the Russians.

>> No.11264053

>>11263998
>implying you need an engineering degree to realize how impractical mecha are at this point.

The biggest issue is the drive train. Our best mechanical designs are extremely vulnerable, high maintenance, and materially expensive. Until we can develop a simpler design (something that might even rival the wheel & treads), mecha is going no where.

>> No.11264058

>>11263998
Nah, he just doesn't have any sense of fun.

Giant robots are fun. But suspension of disbelief's a bitch. That's why "realistic" mecha came into existence. Shows like Gundam made giant robots military hardware, tested and approved by design teams and government powers, sent through a prototype stage and eventually mass produced.

(in b4 ONCE THE BIG ZAM IS MASS PRODUCED)

That is "Real Robot." Only a seriously deluded, ignorant fool believes serious mecha fans are deluded and ignorant enough to believe mecha are realistic or possible in real life. It's just another style of portraying a dramatic device that is powered by rule of cool.

>> No.11264082

>>11263999
How are they explaining psionics? What are the hover systems and how are they working? Where are all the rest of the weapons that would justify it being built over, say, a gunship? I'm not seeing any kind of eject or parachute capabilities, either. What happens if the systems giving it the ability to fly kick out?

No no, this 'faux science' (re: unexplained and impractical technology) is just words slapped on to a fancy concept to justify more mech wankery.

The moment you add 'real' to any situation involving war, you have to include tanks, helicopters, bombers, fighters, and infantry with fully automatic kilometre range grenade launchers.

>> No.11264092

>>11264058
>Only a seriously deluded, ignorant fool believes serious mecha fans are deluded and ignorant enough to believe mecha are realistic or possible in real life.

The funny part is that nearly every time we have these threads, a mecha fan will attempt to argue serious military applications of mecha and declare tanks and aircraft as obsolete hardware.

>> No.11264105

>>11264058

I would hug you if I could.

I don't have to work hard to suspend my disbelief, though, having played a USMC Force Recon, Drow Assassin, Shifter Hunter, Ex-IG Arch-Militant, and fifteen year old Secret Agent Mage Thief Chick.

You know, it's the kind of stuff that comes naturally on /tg/. A giant robot that kills things doesn't seem impossible when people can make fire out of their hands.

>> No.11264107

>>11264021
Damn, of course, what the fuck was I thinking? Now if we could just figure out a way to use the energy of the nuclear reactor to provide propulsion.

>> No.11264108

>>11264058
Again, all this technology going into mecha would, "real"ly be used on tanks, helicopters, fighters, bombers, and heavy infantry.

Any kind of armour, propulsion system, or weapon that you can stick on a mecha is much better off on an actual war machine.

>> No.11264122

>>11263954
We're discussing a semi-realistic setting. In a semi-realistic setting an unguided projectile going maybe Mach 1.5 will not be able to hit a jet going Mach2. A tank will be better armoured than a mecha. A tank will be able to carry heavier weapon systems. A mecha bigger than power armour will be rendered useless.

>> No.11264130

>>11264105
>You know, it's the kind of stuff that comes naturally on /tg/. A giant robot that kills things doesn't seem impossible when people can make fire out of their hands.

Oh, but it is. Because you can make verisimile worlds with magic, but you can't make verisimile worlds with mecha! Didn't you get the memo?

>> No.11264138

>>11264082

In my particular setting, there are both manned and unmanned mecha, as well as unmanned tanks, plains, and Jumpers (basically power armor that flies). The most advanced Mecha are works of art only pilotted by humans for fear of an AI rebellion.

Other craft are often employed and can deal great damage to an unskilled Mecha Pilot (or even just one that gets hit badly enough).

Of course, most Mecha Pilots are very skilled or very rich to have a Mecha commissioned for them.

>> No.11264154

>>11264122

A semi-real MECHA setting.

You know. Super-Real scale?

>> No.11264170

>>11264082

Does Mecha hurt you? Were your children bullied by aggressive Mecha fans?

You sound like you have a vendetta.

>> No.11264180

>>11264105
>Implying that because you're a veteran roleplayer that fanwanks to mecha, other more practical veteran roleplayers won't shoot you down for being full of fuck

protip: mecha are obsolete. They were obsolete in germany after WW1, they were obsolete in the cold war, they're obsolete now, and they'll sure as fuck be obsolete in the future when we have hovertanks and ordnance drones.

The only practical application of anything similar to mecha is mechanically assisting infantry with power armour like HAL. Guidance assisted anti-personnel rifles, shock absorbing antitank rifle arms, etc.

>> No.11264191

>>11263800
Batteries don't explode with a blast radius like most anime mecha do.

>> No.11264193

>>11264170
Only as much as those fags who proclaim the Katana to be the ultimate melee weapon.

>> No.11264207
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11264207

>> No.11264213

>>11264191

But Blast-Radius mecha are part of rule of cool.

>> No.11264214

>>11264154
i'm not saying you can't have mecha. I'm just saying that it will be inferior to everything else.

>> No.11264221

>>11264191

Combustion engines also don't usually make fifteen-feet fireballs and yet look at Hollywood movies. It's mostly because people want to see shit blowing up.

>> No.11264231
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11264231

>>11264193

I'd argue for a Halberd, maybe a rapier if you're in single combat.

Why?

I don't fucking know, I've never seen a Katana in action but I've seen spear and rapier used before and a Halberd's a big spear with some added bits.

>> No.11264242
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11264242

>>11264214

Are you writing my setting or am I writing my setting?

>> No.11264249

>>11264221
Explosions rarely generate enormous fireballs.

A fireball is, in fact, something totally different. See, an explosion is where the shockwave propagates at SUPERSONIC velocity, not subsonic as in a fireball. But if you didn't have a big fireball, people wouldn't know it was an explosion because people are stupid.

>> No.11264257

>>11264082
Okay, first things first. How to power the mecha. Almost every "Real" type must first deal with the issue of ultralight generators that can power a huge robot.

Gundam explained this away with basically a magic particle that doesn't exist in real life, and built a physics system around it. This is the Minovsky particle. It is used to power machines as well as beam weapons and create lift. It creates electronic interference and interferes with guided weapons such as missiles and nukes, making them less useful. Gundam is a relatively grimn'dark setting, where the lives of soldiers don't really matter much, and Minovsky reactors tend to go up in a big explosion, so there usually aren't ejection seats or parachutes for the pilot; however there have been a few mobile suits with escape pods. Gundam explains why mecha are superior even in space combat through the use of a fictional mobility system and advanced computer pair called AMBAC (Active Mass Balance Auto-Control.) where the MS is able to control its movement and firing of vernier thrusters through positioning of arms and legs, thus giving it more versatile agility than a normally shaped spacecraft.

Obviously this all relies upon the existence of a fictional particle and its properties, and there is a lot of fuzzy reasoning involved, but it's a damn sight more believable than Mazinger Z or Gao Gai Gar. If Gundam bothers you this much, those anime would give you a stroke.

>>11264092
You say that, but I've certainly never seen it. I've seen people argue that mecha would be *useful,* and on the scale of battlesuits (Like VOTOMS), I think there are tactical applications. This is debatable and relies very heavily on the assumption an ultralight power source is developed. But most mecha fans are just people who enjoy fun military stories with extravagant war machines much cooler than anything we have in real life.

>> No.11264272

>>11264107
I really don't know how you'd do it, but there must be a way.

The creators just hadn't thought of it I guess?

>> No.11264274

The moment you say anything about a "super" mecha setting, I get to talk about my "super" realistic setting, which handily trumps your mecha in every way because it's backed by actual tactics, evidence-based rule-of-cool, and practical principles - just with pants-on-head tech.

You have mecha that can fly, go into space, fire rail cannons, and use lightsabres?

My average tank is a twohundred compartment "enclosed-space" tank with gravity shields and adamantium plating, over which electro-deflectors detect and destroy any incoming ordnance or ballistic with bursts of plasma. The tank itself is larger on the inside than the outside due to the way its engines warp space. It has a 360 field of vision, uses quantum comptuers to predict the immediate future, moves by flicker-teleportation (pops out of reality and then into reality where it wants to be), and is undetectable unless you're close enough to be eating its electro-deflectors.

Fuck your mecha.

>> No.11264295

>>11264021
>>11264107
Oh, I found something that bmay work as a jet engine but could feasibly be powered by nuclear energy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmGhETxfF4&annotation_id=annotation_687546&feature=iv
Now again, this still may not be satisfactory. Thoughts?

>> No.11264304

>>11264274
>UNF UNF MY FANTASY ARMY IS BETTER THAN YOUR FANTASY ARMY UNF

Way to 'sperg it up, tripfag.

>> No.11264312

>>11264274
That's just about as retarded. It'd be better to put that technology in a plane or aircraft. Tanks are obsolete on the modern battlefield except in urban combat due to superior man portable AT rockets which can penetrate the front armor of a Leopard 2 used by any military that isn't 3rd world.

See, two can play this game.

>> No.11264314
File: 81 KB, 802x530, Heresyeverywhere.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264314

>>11264274

I like your ideas and I drool at your tech.

I reserve the right to like shit any goddamn way I want, though. Giant robots, men screaming, or just fucking tanks shooting each other while snipers duel. If your idea was to get me to post a response and be mad, you failed. If your idea was to get me to post a response, you won.

Good day.

>> No.11264316
File: 181 KB, 900x1200, draken_mirage_by_Flyboy008.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264316

im in ur thredz, invalidating ur wepons

>> No.11264319

>>11264304
You know it, sagenonymous.

>> No.11264323

>>11264274
>The moment you say anything about a "super" mecha setting, I get to talk about my "super" realistic setting, which handily trumps your mecha in every way because it's backed by actual tactics, evidence-based rule-of-cool, and practical principles - just with pants-on-head tech.

And this is more or less the point where you prove yourself to be a lot more childish and retarded than the guys arguing for OVERSIZED TRANSFORMERS as actual battle machines.

Please, for the love of god, shut up. You're making our side look like fucking retards.

>> No.11264330

>>11264274
Why are you saying 'fuck your mecha' in a mecha thread? We're all well aware (at least I hope) of the failings of giant robots, and the fact that they will never really be useful, just as we're all well aware that wizards don't exist.

Now, what do you think of Bolos?

>> No.11264336
File: 81 KB, 1280x720, Takemikazuchi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264336

>>11264274
Behold, a tankmecha that can walk up cliffs, jump fifteen hundred feet in a single bound, fight an entire army to a standstill, and punch holes through entire skyscrapers lengthways.

It is also powered by some sort of mysterious nuclear-based power cell that lasts for centuries but no one knows how to work, has a gravity-affector system that can temporarily reduce its effective mass to enable truly ridiculous leaps, falls and climbs, and despite its unbelievable durability, it still got its pretty face torn the fuck up by an army of assbackwards country bumblefucks with potato cannons.

>> No.11264338

>>11264312
It's called a tank because it has heavy armour. It can teleport and predicts the future - anything using energy on moving is wasting energy.

>> No.11264350

>>11264336
It needs the ability to predict the future and destroy ordnance with plasma before it hits, that's all.

>> No.11264357
File: 60 KB, 1024x768, 0a684bb863542875ca8ac19943baa678.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264357

The most realistic that transforming robots, or giant robots in general, have probably ever been is Macross. Without the retarded BATTROID mode, variable fighters would probably be one short step away from real-life fuckwin.

>> No.11264371

>>11264323
"hurrdurr I don't know anything about mockery"

>> No.11264385

>>11264330
He basically described one, almost. Not like there was any sense whatsoever to putting such an advanced AI in a tank of all things, but *just like mecha,* Bolo run on Rule of Cool. I think his last post easily summed up the fact that highly advanced tanks are no more believable or realistic than highly advanced mecha- their bullshit quotient is convergent and becomes effectively the same the more powerful they get.

That sort of proves my point honestly, if nothing else. Once you get to a certain point, both modern armor taken to a very advanced level and mecha are entirely impractical. The only reason why such shows exist are because suspension of disbelief makes things seem cooler and more believable, not realistic.

>> No.11264392
File: 596 KB, 1280x800, 1278133069194.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264392

>>11264274
You can't out-mecha mecha.

>> No.11264393

>>11264350
Ironically, Takemikazuchi lacks Active Protection System technology that we, now, in real life, actually possess. And it's supposed to be a godmachine from the far future.

Then again, it's lost technology decades old, it's missing a lot of shit and its feet are entirely spare parts, not to mention the subpar reproduction of some of its targeting array lenses. If you actually had a brand new one fully loaded, it might come with APS.

>> No.11264394

Well I have walkers with avengence, but if you wanted a realistic power planet for any giant war machine I would have to say either compressed/liquified natural gass or pebble bed nuclear reactors. Pebble beds are literally can't go supercritical to the point that they would cause a steam explosion since the fissional material is seperated into pebbles. They just produce enough steam to be a really good energy source.

>> No.11264413

>>11264338
It's not really a tank then; it's something entirely else. Tank assumes tracked movement. And tanks are trumped by modern AT firepower.

Also, assuming all your technological wankery was developed individually, there would be individual machines capable of each of those functions in existence at once. (Unless they were all developed on the same device, in which case your "tank" is essentially just a Super Robot, rather than a Real type like Gundam.) It'd be more efficient and intelligent to use machines with singular or a couple battlefield functions that are cheap and can be mass produced. That would trump your machine easily.

Of course, if such a vehicle existed, war would be over.

>> No.11264424

>>11264336
And if you put it on a tank you could have a Bolo planetary seige unit that flies.

Basically any bullshitium that is used to justify a mech could make a tank or a gunship 10 times more badass than the mech could be. Just sayin.

>> No.11264431

>>11264385
>Once you get to a certain point, both modern armor taken to a very advanced level and mecha are entirely impractical. The only reason why such shows exist are because suspension of disbelief makes things seem cooler and more believable, not realistic.

That's what we're talking about. It's not real, but many mecha shows make a good show of being verisimle - looking enough like the genuine article that you're willing to give the physical impossibilities a pass. It's the same reason why movie heroes survive an elephant-killing round to the chest, or why all cars blow up in fireballs, or such - long as it looks believable enough for you to suspend disbelief, only the most annoying nitpickers will worry about the details. And I believe this certain level is what the OP was gunning for.

>> No.11264443
File: 19 KB, 341x350, ridable_robot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264443

Walking vehicles have been around for a while. The biggest limitation isn power supply (piston and turbine engines work fine) but rather the control systems needed to enable dynamic walking and balance at higher speeds. There's also the required frequency/cost of maintenance compared to alternatives.

Military has been following and funding this stuff for decades. They want a couple of vehicles that are able to clamber over stuff that can stop tracked wheeled vehicles so they can carry troops and equipment into more remote areas. They're just waiting as the tech gradually improves.

Walking excavators have been around for a while too, and their "legs" are becoming more and more sophisticated. Japan has been testing legged platforms for construction in mountainous terrain, and of course there's the Plustech forester.

NASA has been working on walking rovers for a while, and the Mars rovers had a legged version, but it wasn't ready in time for launch.

The reality and future of actual walking vehicles is less like Gundam or Starship Troopers and more like... well there's no really accurate fictional representation.

Just imagine some truck or piece of construction equipment with 4+ legs on the bottom, and likely some wheels.

>> No.11264445

>>11264394
I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but given its otherwise advanced technology, I'm willing to just venture a total guess that Takemikazuchi is powered by some kind of high-yield nuclear/atomic powerplant beyond the kind of fission or fusion power we have now.

Probably backed up by a pendulum engine, something low-output but GOES FOR FUCKING EVER just to kickstart the main reactor whenever needed, so you end up with a machine that can shelve for years without burning up all its fuel, but doesn't require some kind of crazy start-up procedures like revving the engines with five fucking buses.

I'm looking at you, Blackbird.

>> No.11264446

>>11264413
That was generally the point of the post. The moment you take "super" tech and toss it into a setting, shit breaks down.

This has been stated. The post is a parody, it serves to bring to light the retardation of what people arguing for mech that any kind of government would develop are saying. Apply any argument against my 'tank' to any of the systems on mecha.

>> No.11264451

>>11263789
Problem with that: Wear and tear. Airplanes are maintenance hogs, so your nuclear bomber will still have to land. For something plausible, try a nuclear-powered cruise missile. Try googling Project Pluto for some real Cold War insanity. The flying crowbar is quite possibly the most scary weapons development idea ever.

>> No.11264457

>>11264424
Maybe if your definition of cool is "looks like a tank."

Anyway, it's kind of a pointless argument since mecha itself is a Japanese anime term. Little known fact: it applies to tanks as well as giant robots. Anything mechanical can technically be mecha so long as it's fictional, futuristic technology.

>> No.11264461
File: 30 KB, 448x336, Cybran_Monkeylord.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264461

>>11264443
>no real accurate fictional representation

Monkeylord.
Ironically, the Martian war machines from War Of The Worlds. Particularly the new version, which beautifully abuses the advantages of tentacle-style locomotive limbs.

>> No.11264471

>>11264446
The problem is nobody but you argued this point. No one really thinks mecha are realistic, except for total idiots. There is some degree of practicality to battle armor even you recognized. If it's a parody, you're parodying the lowest common denominator, and that doesn't exactly take a paragon of wit.

>> No.11264481

>>11264457
strawman up in hurrrr

>> No.11264485
File: 237 KB, 1000x1000, 1274738891750.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264485

Mostly. My setting may lean a little super when it comes to Human Piloted Mecha, but AI piloted Vehicles (aside from planes, tanks, and other vehicles) are, at their largest, power armor that is about ten-fifteen feet tall with a jet booster on its back, whose sole purpose is to crash into shit and draw enemy fire. AI piloted stuff is semi-real, Players are Semi-Super (I think the most advanced Mecha is either the one that produces excess heat to vent it for weapons purposes OR the one that can link to its pilot's cybernetic eyes) to Super with a little bit of science talk.

>> No.11264498

>>11264481
>I know nothing about the genre nor the terminology I'm criticizing.

>> No.11264512
File: 192 KB, 550x729, Culteestundseester.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264512

>>11264481

Okay, Mecha aren't realistic, anyone who thinks Mecha are viable weapons ever is wrong.

Is that what you want me to say?

I don't get it. You seem...angry, but, there's nothing to be angry about. Someone else thinks differently than you. People do have that right. You don't go out in public and treat people like shit when they disagree with you, do you?

>> No.11264522

>>11264512
Like I said, no sense of fun.

It's the same with Battletech fans who insist they are not "mecha fans" because they can't stand robots that fly and wield beam katana.

>> No.11264525

MAN WILL NEVER FLY IN THE SKY LIKE A BIRD, THAT IS TECHNOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE AND RETARDED. CANNONS AND SHIPS OF THE LINE/IRONCLADS DO PERFECTLY GOOD JOBS.

>> No.11264531

>>11264457
Implying that Bolos(fuckhueg tanks that could carry Baneblades on their tread cowls and have cannons that fire 60 megaton rounds) are not the most epic warmachines in fiction.

>> No.11264542
File: 83 KB, 700x525, 1254946566405.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264542

Again

FUCKING MACROSS

BITCHES

>> No.11264543

>robots that fly and wield beam katana.

That sounds incredibly gay. And like the other guy, the idea of giant walking machines is stupid as shit. In an actual combat situation its like saying "hurr durr i r easy target shoot meh plz".

>> No.11264560

>>11264525
Once, our vision of powered flight was heavily inspired by wing-motion, as the ornithopter. We went with a fixed-wing design instead because it was more practical.

Now apply that logic to mecha.

>> No.11264563

>>11264443

Probably the closest military representation would be the Tachikomas/Fuchikomas from GiTS, though their capabilities are likely to be ridiculously over the top. The larger spider tanks in the series are, of course, completely infeasible however. Which I find rather sad, simply because spider tanks are my favorite kind of mech. Also, they're horribly underrepresented.

So, probably less of a "Man shaped tank" than a "spider mech motorcycle/jeep analogue." Even then, it would probably be a limited run thing, a tool intended to operate in certain obstacle rich environments.

>> No.11264575
File: 63 KB, 500x500, Forkaoos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264575

>>11264522

They're all giant walking robots...just like all tanks are tanks.

That said, I don't really care. I like to tell a good story. Doesn't matter if we're surfing on airplanes, Mecha Battlan, or being Stargate Team 21.

>> No.11264585

>>11264525
Except that planes and aircraft carriers don't violate the laws fo physics. And even if you could violate the laws of physics, I would prefer to do it in a box made of depleted uranium and steel with a xboxhuge gun instead of a less protected and less heavily armed robot.

You know what I think is cool? Winning. Seeing a bunch of walkers getting uttery trounced by tanks would make me cream my jeans.

>> No.11264602
File: 166 KB, 828x786, cultistpalahadin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264602

>>11264560

...I'm not entirely sure WHY you would want to constrain ideas. Part of fantasy IS being able to have fucking vehicles that fly by flapping wings or giant battle suits that fucking defy logic.

Now, if you want to constrain yourself, that's fine. You're sort of...being commanding to expect me to submit to your ideas unless I want to, though.

I suppose you could find out where I live and shoot me, but, then again, I'm going to die anyway.

You don't disturb me so much as your lack of regard for another person's will.

>> No.11264609

>>11264471
I argued the merit of mechanically assisted infantry, not any kind of armour. In case you haven't noticed, there are people on here saying that mechs are justified in taking the place of tanks, warplanes, and helicopters because they are 'cooler', and then tossing up technology that makes them cooler without realizing that the technology more readily applies to aforementioned tanks, warplanes, and helicopters. >>11264512
It's not that I'm angry, and yes you have the right to think stupid things, just as I have the right to brutally criticize your stupidity, it's that you're arguing for a setting that uses technology and science, and then claiming it's "semi-real" when mecha have any predominant role. I'm disappointed. If you want to play with mechas, expect to be criticized. Expect to be pointed in the direction of useful technology that breaks mechs over its knee. Expect to be pointed to slanted armour, power supply inefficiencies, treads, rockets, armour piercing bullets, and fucking bomb-dogs. Mechs sacrifice the speed of jets and the armour of tanks for a mangled version of the rule of cool, and then justify it by saying that they're the most advanced technology in their 'semi-real' setting.

>> No.11264619

I skipped the thread. That being said, let's compare the functions of a tank versus a mech. They both fulfill essentially the same roles in their settings. If I miss anything, tell me.
1: Mobile Artillery.
2: Being a tank - as in, drawing fire and attention from troops.
3: Being a spearhead.
4: Anti-tank combat.

Mechs are typically depicted as having more weapons than a tank can fit. Usually three to four different weapon systems depending on the size of the mech. This is the greatest advantage mechs have over tanks. But tanks invalidate this as well. Because tanks are cheaper than mechs, you can bring more OF them to bear against mechs. Remember what happened to the GLORIOUS TIGER MASTER RACE tank? Five Shermans surround it, three get killed while one blows up the tiger tank at the rear armor. It was cheaper for the allies to lose three Shermans and the individuals within them than it was for Germany to lose a Tiger and its tank crew.

That being said, you can simply fit different weapon systems on different tanks, allowing the situational advantages of each weapon for your armored squadron.

Oh, and no pesky rolling when your tank gets hit by a shell. Yeah, mechs kind of have that problem due to a high center of gravity. Hit it in the flank with an RPG and SMACK! Bitch is on the ground!

>> No.11264621

>>11264585
This. Watching a giant fucking trashcan with legs get its shit handed to it by actual proven weapons of war would be funny as shit. Especially if it was of asian origin.

There's a reason these things aren't marching all over the middle east right now. We CAN build them, but we won't because they're fucking stupid and pointless.

>> No.11264625

>>11264609

You aren't getting this, no matter how many times I beat it over your head.

Semi-real is JUST A FUCKING CLASSIFICATION OF MECHA SETTINGS.

It's like hot and cold interfaces for fucking Shadowrun hacking. They aren't actually hot or cold, but they do describe different things using different words.

I don't think we'll ever see Mecha before the Sun explodes.

>> No.11264626

>>11264585

Winning is when you take the alternative roundabout route with walkers and blowing up the enemy base from behind, THEN blowing up the tanks from behind.

You cream because you fantasy, man.

>> No.11264635

>>11264585

You know what's coolest?

USMC pwning your fucking asses without using armor at all.

>> No.11264641

>>11264602
I want to constrain my thinking to what works. I know what works because I can observe it working. If I can observe it working, I can figure out how, and apply that knowledge to something else, in order to get one or both to work better.

We call it science and engineering, and together they make technology.

Part of fantasy is creating a setting in which the suspension of disbelief allows the setting to be plausible - I will believe your setting has mechs and wing-flapping planes if you can give a reason for those to be the best, instead of something I could overcome with a couple years of R&D and some "craft" checks.

>> No.11264642
File: 191 KB, 800x600, swords_outdoorsbest.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264642

>>11264563
Tachikomas/Fuchikomas still have a retarded design, they have fixed foward facing guns. You just want a machine gun or genade launcher on top of the drone in a turret. That way it can act as a mobile machinegun nest. It digs a hole, squats in the hole, and provides fire support. Thind of those SWORDS the army uses accept with legs. And since its man sized, the gods of physics are on its side and legs are practical.

>> No.11264643

>>11264602
This wasn't directed at you, or anyone else in the thread. It was directed at >>11264525

I could care less what you or anyone else likes to imagine. It's your choice. But, just as you understand that fantasy and reality are separate, you must understand that your vision of mecha does not necessarily match what is practical or possible.

>> No.11264645
File: 216 KB, 504x686, boowray-red.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264645

Short opinion: mecha are NOT realistic.

Long opinion: mecha are realistic in the sense that it IS possible to build a big robot which won't stumble and fall over as those tank-humpers would like you to believe. Mecha are NOT realistic because no one needs them when one has tanks and helicopters. Even if, say, shit like railguns would make tanks useless, which is unlikely at best, a helicopter would still do the job better and it won't fall over. And bear in mind that there is nothing, save for missiles, that won't go down when faced with enough infantry. Especially giant killing robots that are perfect targets because of their size. Something along the lines of VOTOMS' ATs and Code Geass' Knightmares, however, would be the closest to a real-life military mecha: fast, manueverable, relatively cheap and equally able to go against infantry, tanks and choppers(machine guns, autocannons - tank armor is relatively thin on the top, and four meters is taller than your friendly neighbourhood MBT, AA missiles). But that's that.

>> No.11264647

RAWR I R BIG SCARY WEABOO ROBOT! FEAR MAH

>you trip over rubble

FUCK WAT DOES I DO NAO???

>> No.11264648

>>11264625

To clarify, I just mean that the 'semi-real' moniker shouldn't be taken literally.

The Mecha aren't SEMI-REAL, they're 'semi-real' on the scale of classification.

>> No.11264651

>>11264602
Wow, that picture was awesome, and im actually managing to starting to understand most of what she says!

>> No.11264656

Oh hey guys guys!

Mecha, impossible? Giant walkers, impossible?

Fucking dinosaurs, how did they work?

>> No.11264658
File: 26 KB, 448x657, helmine3.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264658

>>11264645

My setting has giant, ten meter-tall robots with gyrojet autocannons, Gauss snipercannons, particle beam cannons and monomolecular blades, not to mention nanotube-bonded composite armor that can probably survive several direct hits from a T-90's main cannon(I'm talking about chest armor, which is the thickest). It is powered by a low-temp fusion reactor(you proles know it as cold fusion, which is incorrect), since I couldn't fit a tokamak and have it stand upright and walk, and nothing short of a tokamak would have enough power to make it function(although there are Chinese mook units running off hydrogen fuel cells and cheap as fuck, like the Capellan Duan Gung from BT), and the drive system is electric actuators+biopolymer muscles. Oh, and most onboard functions are AI-controlled: the pilot balances and operates the mecha via neurohelmet and control sticks. Yeah, it's a mix between Battletech and The Five Star Stories, only with less overpoweredness and heat problems and more cyberpunk added. Then again, the setting takes place in the 2120s as of now.

Pic related: Russian mecha look like that. Sort of. And the previous picture too.

>> No.11264660

>>11264609

...so basically, "if you do something that is not realistic, you should *expect* people to come yelling at you to stop it because you should make it realistic"?

No offense, but fuck that. Now, can you please leave us to the discussion of mecha settings?

>> No.11264667

>>11264647

I get behind rubble, shoot you to death, then casually get up and kill everyone else.

>> No.11264675

>>11264641

You don't have to believe anything.

I'm not fighting you. I'm confused why you're fighting me. I have no intention (and ability) of convincing you that you are incorrect, the same way you likely lack the intention or ability to convince me I'm incorrect.

I don't understand. Are you trolling or are you really arguing with me this far out hoping I'll concede? I'm not going to concede unless you consider agreeing to disagree concession, then you may have that.

>> No.11264685
File: 217 KB, 1536x864, 4479074649_f97f45328b_oresize.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264685

I think powered armor is more feasible

but it's way easier to make a man portable weapon that can blow up a tank, than it is to armor a man like a tank.

>> No.11264691

>>11264619
>>11264626
>>11264625

When I see your walkers bobbing up and down from a mile away and topple them with a shell to the top, I'll laugh and watch it try to get back up (assuming the horizontal acceleration from the shell's imparted energy doesn't just scramble the pilot).

Again, 625, until something in your semi-realistic setting can be applied to a mech better than it can be applied to a dedicated system, mechs are going to ruin the suspension of disbelief in anyone smart enough to sniff out bullshit.

>> No.11264696

>>11264647

And that is why these things will never come into fruition, all they need to do is trip, or take a hit from a tank or an anti-armor weapon and boom, its on its side.

The BIGDOG robot CAN prevent itself from falling, and it CAN get up, buts its creators even stated that if it were any larger, this would be almost impossible.

>> No.11264706

>>11264696The BIGDOG robot CAN prevent itself from falling, and it CAN get up, buts its creators even stated that if it were any larger, this would be almost impossible.


like a flying machine? absurd! men are not birds!!

>> No.11264708
File: 115 KB, 506x674, 5098-102530-spacemarine1jpg-noscale.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11264708

>>11264685
Shoot the arms. You want powered armor like this, son:

>> No.11264710

>>11264626
The round about route? I assume you mean using the mechs over mountains, enjoy your Apache gunships and fastmover airstrikes. And the sad thing is that the tanks rear armor would probably be as thick as the mechas front armor, due to how weight distribution would work. So not so much.

>> No.11264731

>>11264643
>"you must understand that your vision of mecha does not necessarily match what is practical or possible."

How do you manage to breathe with all the fuck your head is full of?

Anything you can apply to mechs, I can apply to a better weapons platform, and it will thereby be better.

>> No.11264733

>>11264585

I on the other hand, have my "coolness factor" scale look something like

Mecha>Helicopter gunships>Squads on foot>>Jet Fighters>>>Tooth extraction without painkillers>>>>Tanks.

Basically, I just think tanks plain aren't cool, and since people tend to not react well to gunship-dominated battlefields for some reason...

>> No.11264737

>>11264691mechs are going to ruin the suspension of disbelief in anyone who's a huge fag

>> No.11264747

>>11264656
Very slowly. And Elefants need to keep three feet on the ground at all times and if they fall down they break a rib. Physics is a bitch.

>> No.11264750

>>11264731Anything you can apply to mechs, I can apply to my anus, unf unf unf unf

>> No.11264755

>>11264706
>comparing a society that lacks any real understanding of the fundamental forces governing our universe to a society that is on the edge of a technological singularity

cool story bro

>> No.11264772

>>11264645

Well as long as everyone keeps arguing for humanoid/bipeds that run around swattin down tanks, no, we're never gonna get anywhere.

Thankfully, the real world and the real military doesn't have such wild ideas. They just want a vehicle that- when encountering an obstacle- can clamber over it.

Real world walker designs have essentially consisted of conventional looking vehicles with some legs attached to the bottom. Their one intended task: navigating terrain that limits tracks and wheels. This alone will ensure that no matter what happens, walkers are going to remain relatively low in number and niche vehicles.

But there is room for a niche like that. When walkers become more affordable and efficient and you finally have the chance to get that excavator or that truck into that place they could once never get to without a ton of effort, why wouldn't you bring it along?

>> No.11264776

>>11264691

My players seem to be having fun. I don't see why it matters whether shit is completely bullshit or it's based on absolutely true science that is up to date and re-updated every week on Sunday.

Suspension of disbelief is only a problem if you have a problem imagining going beyond it. I used to have trouble imagining why someone would fight with deadly weapons and then spare a foe. I wracked my brain for hours and hours, and then I realized it was just another part of fantasy. I expanded my understanding and moved past my error. Mecha was a big easier to grasp because, as I said, Roleplaying is already a HUGE suspension of disbelief. You have to imagine you're someone else, someone who isn't human, is white, is black, is asian, male, female, pink hair, black hair, blue eyes, green eyes, someone who comes from a different walk of life than you and THINKS AND REACTS differently than you. Roleplayers are fairly adept at suspending their disbelief to 'get into character'. Giant robots, dragons, and fucking two headed cows from the radioactive far future have stopped bothering me.

If you have a problem, you are free not to play. I do not force my will upon you, and you cannot force yours not upon me.

>> No.11264786

>>11264731
I do not understand how anything you said invalidates what I said.

>> No.11264787

>>11264733
The highest you can go on the rule of cool is "Winning." Everything scales down from there.

>> No.11264799

>>11264643

I apologize. This thread...has grown confusing.

>> No.11264804

>>11264645

Helicopters are air vehicles. Mechs are ground vehicles. If its not too hard to understand, both have their place.

Helicopters suffer from massive inefficiency with fuel usage, are basically flying bricks because they cannot use ground friction to accelerate or decelerate, are fancy targets for anyone with a half-decent anti air setup, cannot carry as much armor and weapons as a ground vehicle of the same efficiency, cannot rearm easily on the field, (as an air vehicle) cannot capture and hold territory, cannot be all that stealthy (what with that giant noisy rotor fan), cannot perform ground battlefield engineering work, generally requires a dedicated airbase limiting its range, and if it does happen to "trip over" a mountainside in a sandstorm its not going to get back up ever.

Mechs are only impractical to those who place an overt emphasis on using said mechs in the most retarded way possible against the most retarded odds and without the logical combined arms support. They offer advantages to the side with mechs over those who don't, but only if they aren't used in the herp durp charge forward manner that everyone seems to want to shoehorn it in.

>> No.11264808
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11264808

>>11264787

Isn't having fun on top?

>> No.11264812

Well the argument is pointless anyway due to confusion of the terminology at hand.

The hyperbole example he gave earlier of a tank with all the trappings of a mecha is mecha by the definition of the term. So he used a mecha to dispute the realism of mecha. Of course when I mentioned this, he didn't have much to say. If you're aware of Metal Slug, you know that tanks also classify as mecha when taken to unrealistic extremes.

That and he seems confused by the terminology of "Real and Super." It's impossible to actually debate something where the two sides are arguing based on totally different premises. He assumes the use of the "Real" term suggests that mecha fans believe Gundam is "Realistic" rather than "believable." (Even mentioning suspension of disbelief in his explanation of science, etc.) Mecha fans use "real" in the terminology drawn from Super Robot Wars series games, in which Real is a method of genre classification, not an appellation of scientific plausibility. The lower level of suspension of disbelief is related, but there's no actual assumption anywhere implied that Real mecha are plausible in actual warfare.

The thing that makes me a bit mad, and what makes him a successful troll, is that even though I am a /m/an, I agree basically with all the things he's said about why mecha are not practical and have used the same exact arguments in threads explaining why mecha are not practical for real warfare. There were people who disagreed with me, but well, those aren't particularly good examples of mecha fans honestly.

>> No.11264814

>>11264799
No problem. I believe we all know whose fault it is, and it isn't yours.

>> No.11264817

>>11264706
Son we have something called science and mathematics now.

They were fucking idiots back in the 1900s.

>> No.11264820

>>11264733
>Mecha>Helicopter gunships>Squads on foot>>Jet Fighters

Impying that your robot will be cool when I drop a neutron bomb on it from 50,000 ft. Enjoy your hard gama weeaboos. If we did have an all tank and robot fighting force enhanced radiation warheads would be the deal breaker.

>> No.11264822

>>11264747
>>Very slowly. And Elefants need to keep three feet on the ground at all times and if they fall down they break a rib. Physics is a bitch.

Here's one walking and it clearly lifts two feet off the ground at once.

Not to mention that when dealing with difficult terrain- particularly forests- elephants are a superior mode of transportation compared to wheeled/tracked vehicles... if only they weren't so temperamental.

>> No.11264826

>>11264812
So really, nothing new or worthwhile has been said here, and no conclusion can be reached due to the people debating refusing to accept common definitions of terminology, and I agree with both sides.

... What am I still doing here?

I suppose if there's one difference between me and tankhead here, it's that even though I know mecha are not realistic and appreciate modern military and futuristic versions of modern military hardware, I still can enjoy both. I'll just chalk it up to being open minded and laid back.

>> No.11264838

>>11264804

Oh, and they do tend to give arbitrary technological advantages to "conventional" vehicles, even when it is clear a mech would make better use of such technology.

Such people have played too many video games and believe that technology progresses in linear tech levels.

>> No.11264840

>>11264822

D'oh, forgot link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOE7dTuLCiU&feature=related

>> No.11264841

>>11264776
>I used to have trouble imagining why someone would fight with deadly weapons and then spare a foe.
>I don't understand compassion, so I attribute it to fantasy

It doesn't matter WHO I pretend to be, somewhere in your universe there is a man who has an understanding of the scientific method, and a high int score. And one of these people will have a friend who is an engineer with a high int score, or maybe they are the same person. If these people do not get together and figure, "Hey, something's wrong here!", then your setting can't be autonomous unless you give a good explantion of why something isn't wrong here. Just because you are bad at worldbuilding does not mean I have to settle for bad worldbuilding.

>> No.11264844

>>11264804
>but only if they aren't used in the herp durp charge forward manner that everyone seems to want to shoehorn it in.
Therein lies your problem. That is the only practical way to use a mech. It's either that or mobile artillery, and tanks already perform both roles. Better than mechs, cheaper than them, with a longer range than them, with a smaller risk of rolling over than them, and can go over more terrain than mechs can.

>> No.11264845

>>11264787

For *you*, and that's what you're failing to realize. You're arguing from a realistic perspective where predictable, reliable winning is all that matters. I'm arguing from a narrative perspective, an action movie perspective if you will, where a cool visual IS a valid reason for winning.

Basically, Rambo should have died five minutes in, in half of his movies, because his tactics are crap and the A-Team firing is so huge that it's a wonder the trees aren't made of lead already, but he stays alive because it's awesome, and Rambo mowing down mooks makes for a cooler visual. Mechas work under the same principle - robotic, military superheroes more than war machines, that give awesomeness in a shape much more personable and relatable, and therfore more viscerally pleasing, than a dozen rectangles with treads.

>> No.11264846

>>11264841slurp slurp slurp i luuuuurv cock

>> No.11264847

>Well as long as everyone keeps arguing for humanoid/bipeds that run around swattin down tanks, no, we're never gonna get anywhere.
Funny thing, that. I already explained nobody has seriously argued this.

As always, it's the usual "someone comes in and disputes the realism of mecha, which no one disagrees with but he pursues the point until it becomes a debate/trolling."

>> No.11264852
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11264852

>>11264820
>weeaboos

Well, I guess that's that.

>> No.11264857

>>11264691

>>mechs are going to ruin the suspension of disbelief in anyone smart enough to sniff out bullshit.

I can sniff out bullshit. I know mechs are bullshit. But it doesn't ruin suspension of disbelief for me, as long as the setting is internally consistent.

I don't require my fantasies to adhere closely to reality, and I can enjoy blatantly unrealistic things in a fictional setting... as long as the way those blatantly unrealistic things behave and act consistently with the 'rules' set up for that setting.

>> No.11264873
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11264873

>>11264826

I think everyone has been trolled. I...I'm not sure where everything went wrong!

I don't even think Yelling Guy wins at the end of this. All he's done is waste his time in this thread telling people that they're wrong...and the people arguing with him certainly didn't win...

WHERE DID IT ALL GO WRONG?!?

>> No.11264879

>>11264841
Are you able to enjoy 'soft' SF, or must it be all hard all the time?

>> No.11264884

>>11264857
>somewhere in your universe there is a man who has an understanding of the scientific method, and a high int score. And one of these people will have a friend who is an engineer with a high int score,
>or maybe they are the same person. If these people do not get together and figure, "Hey, something's wrong here!", then your setting can't be autonomous

>> No.11264887

>>11264873
Right about here:

>>11263904

>> No.11264890

>>11264873

It's a troll discussion, dude. Nobody wins those. Everyone comes out being a little less of a person.

>> No.11264893
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11264893

>>11264804

The fact stands that everything a mecha can do, a helicopter/tank/infantryman can do better and cheaper. Well, not everything, but urban combat seems like a too small a niche for walker vehicles.

And then consider the cost of the powerplant, the drive system, the onboard electronics and programming, and the end result pretty much nullifies the potential usefulness.

However, as I said, if we ever get mecha, they'd be more like VOTOMS: vertical one-man tankettes for offense and manuevers, that compensate their lack of armor with manueverability and only use legs to scale obstacles.

Or fighter planes with legs that behave more like choppers, but when one considers the strain on the pilot...

>> No.11264896

>>11264887
Possibly also here:

>>11263982

>> No.11264901

>>11264884urgle gurgle gurgle

don't yell with your mouth full of cocks

>> No.11264904

>>11264893
>fighter planes with legs

Hello Macross.

>> No.11264905
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11264905

>>11263825
>>11263921

The Aigaion and its escorts are designed for water landing and take-of, I'm pretty sure.

>>11263989

This guy has the right idea, though do jet turbines work with nuclear power? I thought they relied on combustion?

>> No.11264910

Look at Patlabor. They had batteries.

>> No.11264915

>>11264826
An open mind is like a fortress with its gate open and its walls unguarded.

You should know better than to try and bring tolerance for differing view points to /tg/.

>> No.11264925

>>11264879
I like my science fiction like I like my dicks. HARD......wait a minute.

>> No.11264934

It's a one man war against an enemy that doesn't exist.
I.E. hard scififag against supposed mecha fans that believe mecha are realistic, of which there are 0 currently following this thread. Arguably he wins by default.

>> No.11264937

>>11264915
Good afternoon, Inquisitor.

>> No.11264940

>>11264915

You'd be surprised. Most people here are pretty open, at least in my experience. It's just old Yeller here that seems to be bored and faking being obtuse to pass the time.

>> No.11264949

>>11264915

And yet a closed mind is no more useful than a closed fist.

You should know the world isn't black and white if you speak like a sage, or you should just stop pretending you know things.

>> No.11264951

>>11264915

BEFORE THIS GATE

A FLOOD OF COCKS

LET NONE SULLY YOUR MIND

>> No.11264968

>>11264905
I'll have to look it up, but I do remember the US Air Force having plans for a nuclear-powered bomber.
Now that one used props, but I think that you could use the heat generated by a reactor in conjunction with a compressor to superheat incoming air, much like how the combustion chamber of a conventional jet turbine.

>> No.11264973

>>11264949

an open hand receives the cock

>> No.11264998

>>11264973

And a closed fist merely invites a closed fist into his face.

A cock in the hand would please some ca/tg/irls and fa/tg/uys.

>> No.11265002
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11265002

>>11264904

Yep. The only reason Macross is awesome, since music and love make me vomit. Still, the pilot would be awfully strained, and we'll probably need lighter materials and low-temp fusion reactors to power those.

>> No.11265013

tl;dr - If you enjoy settings that don't make sense when taken the slightest bit out of context, you can enjoy mecha. If you like consistency and autonomy in your settings, people who like mecha will make fun of you for it.

>> No.11265015

>>11264949
>Imply a closed fist is not useful for beating your enemies to a pulp

Also, 40k quotes are supposed to facist and nonsensical, that's part of the charm.

>> No.11265025

>>11265013MY BRAIN HURT IT DONT SENSE WHY NOONE LISTEN TO MY SMARTS????

Sir, you're suffering from a Cock overdose! You must quit sucking them!!

>> No.11265031

>>11265015

Sorry, this thread...there was a lot of arguing here.

>> No.11265033
File: 7 KB, 446x361, million dicks.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
11265033

>>11265025
I can't. There's so many and I have to get them all.

>> No.11265038

>>11264949
Erm...you can use a closed fist to beat the fuck out of things. You don't punch with your hand open do you?

>> No.11265046

>>11265038
>has never fought a bear

>> No.11265057
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11265057

>>11265002
>music and love make me vomit
;_;
>pilot would be strained
Variable Fighter training is apparently very tough, and at least one person (Guld Goa Bowman) that we know of has died due to the severe G forces induced during some truly fucking crazy piloting. But then, he WAS dogfighting against an AI at supersonic speeds.
>nuclear reactors
Everything after the VF-1 Valkyrie runs on nuclear thermal jets, apparently. The YF-19 and later even have tiny little fold engines in them.

>> No.11265066

>>11265013

Who has made fun of you here for your setting? You're only being made fun of right now because you seem to be proving the Internet Fuckwad Theory.

>> No.11265068

>>11265033LOLOL I NOT GAY ITS IRONIC RIGHT??? PLZ BELIEVE MEEEEEEE

you're a cock thirsty bitch aintcha

>> No.11265103

>>11265066
That theory only works if the person is anonymous. Plenty of /tg/ knows my facebooks and emails.

>>11265068
I only suck the dicks of people who think mechs are full retard. Nothing gets me wet like a man with a brain. That he uses. Intelligently.

>> No.11265108

>>11265013
Hey, I enjoy 40k and I still don't enjoy most mecha. Save for 40k's titans, simply because everything in 40k is IMPRACTICOOOL. Mecha that tries to pass itself off as practical can choke on ten million dicks. But if you allow it to exist on rule of cool, that's fine by me. Like Gundams holding on to rockets to get into space.

>> No.11265117

>>11265108
I can't read 40K fluff because it's full of fuck. Even the rules are full of fuck.

>> No.11265147

>>11265103

You're still being a fuckwad.

The one guy who 'argued' with you spent most of the thread practically bending over and saying you had the right to do whatever you wanted.

>> No.11265154

>>11264968
Well, they did have plans for a nuclear ramjet cruise missile, the SLAM. Part of Project Pluto, was shelved because even at the hight of the cold war, people considered it a batshit insane idea.

>> No.11265165
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11265165

>>11265057

Exactly my point. It's hard enough to control a warplane as it is. Harder still to control a warplane that deploys arms and legs and acts as a walker vehicle. And don't forget the G-forces.

VF-0s ran on souped-up jet engines(my brain fills itself with fuck failing to see how are those sufficient to power a mecha with all its gimmicks), actually, and Valkyries had thermonuclear engines. Well, nothing else would suffice, really.

>> No.11265169

>>11265103

Hint: Nobody on /tg/ cares about your facebook and emails.

>> No.11265171

>>11265154

Batshit insane ideas are how we figure out the good ideas. (and they make for great roleplaying game shit where failsafes and the good parts of human nature DON'T have to kick in)

>> No.11265173

>>11265154
And then Russia went and took out the nuke and made a RAMJET PROPELLED ANTI-SHIP CRUISE MISSILE anyway.

And it is made of rape and WHAT

>> No.11265210

>>11265013
>>11265108
They use Titans in 40k because the Mechanicum is pants on head retared and they use dreadnaughts and wraiths because the cripple/spess elf ghost has an easier time using a humaniod form. That said even though 40k runs on 93 octane liquid bullshit, even it admits that modified banblades with titan weapons and normal tanks fullfill the battlefield role better. The reason people hate anime mech is: instead of showing the walker as a specialist vehicle with a specific role to fulfill it is displayed as a do everything better weapon. Flies faster than a plane(bullshit), tougher than a tank(bullshit), more flexable than infantry(bullshit), more manueverable than air cavalry(bullshit). If you want a semirealistic mecha setting it has to do one job well and suck at everything else.

Basically if it can't beat a tank 1:1 it is realistic. Have it be a replacment for a mortar or support squad. Moves around a rough terain and shells the shit out of enemy infantry while being smal enough (10-12ft max) to take cover.

>> No.11265222

>>11265117fuck me in da assssss

>> No.11265244

>>11265210
Then we're exiting the realm of mecha proper and returning to the realm of powered armor, where it IS much more practical.

>> No.11265320

>>11265244
Americans(Lensmen/StarshipTroopers) invents power armor= won WW2

Japan=Obsessed with impractically big humanoid fighting vehicles

coincidence? no Its the carrier vs battleship all over again.

Like a mech a battleship has a precise job in a post WW1 navy shell coast and provide air defense. I you absolutely have to have mechs make them light cavlary that attacks an enemies flank while the tanks(heavy calvary) goes up the center and breaks the line.

>> No.11265346

Are we seriously considering anything that Japan makes could be practical in actual warfare?

This is the country that ran towards well entrenched marines with fucking swords.

This is the country that we actually used fucking bats to fight.

This is the only nation in HUMAN FUCKING HISTORY that ever suffered an atomic attack.

These guys are the hands down worst people to get military ideas from.

>> No.11265402

HIIIIIIIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE!!!

>> No.11265404

>>11265210
Has it not occurred to you that the only way such mechs would realistically be used so often is if they COULD do almost everything better? That, to me, seems a lot more realistic than if they can only do one job. They'd probably just be scrapped for something else that can do that job better.

>> No.11265427

>>11265346
You do know it was the U.S. that was going to attack Japan with bat bombs, right?

>> No.11265432

>>11265404
mybrainisfulloffuck.jpg

God damn....

>> No.11265437

>>11265427
Thats my point. We used fucking bats against them.

>> No.11265457

Mecha are impractical for all but unstable terrain. Sad to say but wheels trump legs and everyone in the military knows this. Maybe quadrapedial hybrids (that wont fall over when unpowered) in the future but not mecha. Too large and inefficient.

>> No.11265515

>>11265404
>Obvious troll is obvious
How, magic? If it is setting with magic that is fine but...

>> No.11265558

>>11265427
Suprisingly the bat bomb probably would have worked.

The Japanese lauched thousands of balloons with incindieries at the west coas an managed to start a whole 2 forest fires, ooohh watch out for Glorius Nippon its armed forces have a 1 in 500 chance of setting something on fire.

>> No.11265653

I like how everyone is bitching about high center of grevity while this is very easy to solve: Quadrupedal mechs.

>> No.11265677

>>11265558
>The Japanese lauched thousands of balloons with incindieries at the west coast and managed to start a whole 2 forest fires

ALL HAL THE GROURIOUS NATION OF JAPAN!

>> No.11265696

>hurr anyone who likes mecha is wrong, look at how right i am in my game about having fun with giant robots.

>> No.11266067

>>11265696
It's more a hard vs soft scifi thing.

>> No.11266102
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11266102

>>11263311

>danger zone

ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE

>> No.11266115
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11266115

>>11266067

And, after a point, it really devolved into everyone being retarded and unable to accept that the other side had a valid point and to let it go.

>> No.11266214

>>11266102
Revvin' up your engine
Listen to her howlin' roar
Metal under tension
Beggin' you to touch and go
Highway to the Danger Zone
Ride into the Danger Zone

>> No.11266276
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11266276

>>11266115
I blame it on the fact the the Japanese just have to have the robots be better every time, can't they do a 50/50 split? There are as many tread heads out there as there are weeaboos. It's a case of overexposure that just makes you itch to see and A10 firing a stream of DU at robots and cutting through their plot armor like butter.

>> No.11266334

>>11266276

Eh. I tried to do a split while emphasizing that Mecha constructed for human piloting were generally very expensive and rare; it was a point to control the AI piloted weapons should they get out of control.

That's my setting, though, and the rules mean a tank (manned or otherwise) could roll a lucky shot and cripple a Mech (or even kill the pilot).

I've played enough Super Robot Wars to have all but my super elite units nearly shot down by turrets and tanks and to be a little humbled...

>> No.11266352
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11266352

For me it's all about Big Dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-AGWq0k_Mo

>> No.11266768

>>11263311
>Given what /tg/ would think to be a feasible power source for a Mecha in a semi-real setting

Micro fusion reactor

>how big does /tg/ think the explosion of the core (not a hit that disables the unit, but a core hit that leads to meltdown) would be?

fusion reactors don't explode, they just scram when breached and the reaction stops.

>> No.11266814

>>11266276
Japan has an obsession with FISTS >>>> GUNS

>> No.11267537

>>11266814

...therefore, to make a tank that isn't mook-ified, what we must do is make a tank with a hugeass drillram instead of cannons. Perimeter Breacher extraordinaire, and gets the up-and-close experience that the viewers of such series want!

>> No.11267634

>>11267537

Hell it really just depends what kind of cannon it has on it.

A tank with a regular ballistic cannon isn't that special. A tank with a tri-barrel heavy shell launching cannon is unique and, thus, not a mook vehicle no matter what.

>> No.11267711

Mechanized Propulsion Systems, Inc. (yeah, you can google them) is a well-established startup headed and funded by a veteran programmer with lots of money who happens to like anime.

They are building a mech.

I've seen their prototypes, they were doing a demo, looking for interns.

Serious shit, yo.

They're using a diesel engine, they found that electric servos just weren't efficient enough at high-torque to operate a 2-story-tall robot. So, I suppose a 'reactor hit' would look a lot like a card exploding.

>> No.11268171

mechs cannot possibly hope to be even partially realistic

Aircraft, tanks, planes, APCs, and basic antiarmor weaponry would OHKO them

>> No.11268440

>>11268171

>slowpoke.jpeg

>> No.11271630

Crewman Zadovski here. I need medic. Read whole thread, now head hurts.

>>
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