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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.11126297 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why do /tg/ hate Katana's or anything/anyone relating to using it?

>> No.11126306

copypastas about them

>> No.11126307

Because some people who like katanas are stupid. /tg/ loooooves it some stereotypes.

>> No.11126311

Weeaboos.

So many fucking weeaboos.

>> No.11126322

nerdboner

>> No.11126327

We like L5R. At least some of us do.

>> No.11126331

Because its a stabbing weapon designed for slashing, maybe.

>> No.11126332

Because Halberds are better, seriously, they're hella boss.

>> No.11126342

>katana's

Katana's what?

>> No.11126358

This weapon is made for mary sue character,

>> No.11126389

Katana fetishism annoys the people who know that a rapier can do the exact same thing, and more.(Straight swords are better for the quick-draw, can handle stress better, etc)

>> No.11126394

Because in a realistic straight-up fight, where the combatants were wearing armour, it's lack of weight renders it near useless against a proper weapon.
Also weeaboo faggots believe it CAN CUT THROUGH SWORDS/ARMUR/MAJIK COS IT KAWAII!1!one!!1!

>> No.11126407

>>11126297
Katanas are overused

They've become the McDonalds of the sword world. A Giant of averageness that everyone knows, forever proventing anyone getting any sort of spotlight.

>> No.11126412

>>11126306
>>11126311
Basically this, also any thread about it is automatically a troll-thread.

>> No.11126413

>>11126297
A Katana is a fine sword with an interesting history.
People just make it out to be better than it actually is.
It's become a bit of a cliche.

>> No.11126429

When your swords are literally magical enchanted swords that can cut through fucking emotions and shit, you have a perfectly good excuse.

It helps that neither of these are actually katanas.

>> No.11126446

Because a nice heavy Axe would snap the blade in half and crush the head of the wielder behind it

>> No.11126450

Katana

fuck yeah!

>> No.11126459

Because, as you can see in this thread, excessive katana fanboyism has led to a knee-jerk overreaction by people who now baaw and scream about katanas being made of shit quality materials and absolutely useless, along with just about everything else about feudal Japanese warfare and gear.

The truth, as always, lies in between. Katanas are fine weapons, provided that you wield them properly and don't expect fucking miracles. Notice that this is exactly the same as with any other sword? Good, because that's what it is. A sword. It does sword things, and it does them quite well. It is not an uberweapon. It is also not the complete piece of shit a lot of faggots on this board claim it is.

>> No.11126464

>>11126450
fucking sonic fans ruin everything.

>> No.11126471

Because katanas are essentially useless against European armor.
Even wondered why them Japs kept using same old bamboo shitty armor? Status quo, same reason why they never improved anything.

>> No.11126479

superior

>> No.11126480

>>11126464

Original character
do not stole

>> No.11126487

Its reputation as the finest sword ever made is frankly exaggerated, and offensive to the more martially-literate /tg/ites. It is a glorified cavalry saber, yet we hear little talk of the noble Pallasch while every moron can tell you about the folding process of the Katana. Nobody knows how much goddamn work Toledo put into its cut and thrust swords, nor of the evolution of western swords to circumvent armor.
Essentially, it's like listening to people talk about how awesome of a book Catcher in the Rye is, when you're in the act of reading Hills like White Elephants.

>> No.11126500

It's nothing more than a hype reaction. Honestly, that's all it is.

Kantanas are decent swords for what they're designed to do. That is, be used by guys who fight as often on horseback as on the ground. They're roughly equivalent to a high quality saber, but are also designed for a fast draw.

The problem is that some people, back in the 90's when Japan and anime were just becoming popular in the US, ended up saying, "Holy fuck, these things are awesome!" and actually believing they could cut through tanks and shit, and posted on the internet accordingly.

This is the inevitable overreaction. People now think they're overrated and total shit. They weren't - they were designed to fight against guys in Japanese plate armor, which wasn't as bad as it's made out to be either.

Regardless, a lot of swords are cooler, and don't get the attention they deserve because there are still weaboo fags out there who masturbate to pictures of Katanas. Not as many as there used to be, but they still exist. So yeah, people get pissed.

Me, I prefer the scimitar, when it is slightly curved, or the Dao broadsword.

>> No.11126505

>>11126487
Jesus christ, dude, like that's any better? Hemingway is the adult Holden would grow into.

>> No.11126508

>>11126479
agreed, there were some awesome weapons in ancient Japan
the Yumi is one of my favorite bows, and the Naginata is cool too
Kanabo look kind of badass, but there are better clubs
but really, Katanas weren't even a Samurai's main weapon

>> No.11126511

>>11126471
Useless against European armor. Key note: This is *no different from European swords*. Knights used maces and morningstars against other plate-armored opponents, not their swords. Not if they were serious.

>> No.11126517

>>11126500
Katana fetishism is older than that. Goes back at least to the 70s. It goes hand in hand with martial arts fetishism.

>> No.11126518

>>11126459
its bad against a lot of things actually, because its single-edged and has a shitty point

generally speaking it would very ineffective against most types of european armor. a samurai just wouldn't hold up well against a decent european warrior.

>> No.11126523

lol

>> No.11126529

>>11126471
>Even wondered why them Japs kept using same old bamboo shitty armor? Status quo, same reason why they never improved anything.
this I'm inclined to agree with.

it's not like the Japanese struck gold with the designs of their weaponry, it's just that they maintained them because of the lack of iron to improve it. hell, if someone introduced better armor to japan they would've had to improve the design of their weaponry.

>> No.11126531

>>11126500
Yeah, it's older than that. Nonetheless, you recieve a brofist from me.

>> No.11126537

>>11126480
I'll say it again, FUCKING SONIC FANS

>> No.11126546

Damascus swords are legendary and this may be why.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html

eat it Weeaboos

>> No.11126549

>>11126537
Oh god what.

>> No.11126560

>>11126529
Except that Japanese armor did evolve and change over time, and even eventually came to *gasp* incorporate some European advances too. Not all o-yoroi was just wood, there were many examples that used interlinked metal plates faced with silk cords. And there's a kind of chestplate called the "nanbando" which was basically a borrowed and copied European steel cuirass.

>> No.11126566

>>11126518
>implying the katana was the samurais main weapon and not a back up/symbol of status.

>> No.11126567

>>11126505
That is unfair. One is a book about such a person, another is such a person, older and having embraced the human condition, who wrote books.

>> No.11126573

>>11126523
I have a sequel to that

>> No.11126576

>>11126537
>>11126480
>>11126450

do not insult my honor

>> No.11126579

>>11126560
yes, but it all happened relatively late to incorporate any serious weapon innovations.
I mean, look at the constant evolution of European weapons.

>> No.11126582

>>11126511
Knights in fact used maces and sometimes two-handed swords like the bastard or something similar. The image of a knight in heavy plated armour on a horse wielding a shield and some sort of one-handed "longsword" is utterly preposterous and totally a product of fantasy.

>> No.11126592

>>11126560
but before contacting the west they were still stereotyped. there was no diversity, no real foreign invaders to come in and fuck everything up by using novel technology.

i mean, take the turks and arabs for example. they used slashing weapons, scimitars and junk, but they still had to fight different cultures within their own superculture, plus the europeans, the mongols, indians.. the nips just didn't really have that problem.

>> No.11126604

>>11126579
Hell, not all Japanese swords were even *curved*. Their first ones were basically Chinese jian, then you moved into straight-bladed single edged swords, and then you started seeing the curve.

>> No.11126606

Katana is an excellent weapon for fighting unarmored foes. It might want to be more curved for horse combat, but would do ok.

It would still cut chainmail, just less efficiently. Just as chainmail is less efficient against arrows or spears.

Cultures evolve to meet the style of combat they prefer. Katanas are perfectly serviceable in the period they were used against the people they fought.

Which, for example, makes them better for killing people in modern society than a long sword. Since we do not typically wear armor anymore.

>> No.11126614

>>11126582
fyi the bastard sword was a hand and a half sword meaning that it could be use single or two handed.

>> No.11126626

>>11126471
I know you're basically trolling, but people might mistakenly believe you.

Jap plate was decent. It would be enough to stop a European sword blade, and did stop Katanas.

Swords alone, a fight between an actual Knight and Samurai would come down to individual skill. The Samurai also had SLIGHTLY suckier armor, but it wasn't made of bamboo and rice paper like some people believe, or anime seems to portray it.

Now the big difference was in how they were used. The Japs liked being horse archers who could function as shock cavalry. The Europeans liked being shock cavalry only and specialized in it. They trained accordingly.

>> No.11126633

That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork Bastard Sword” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?

>> No.11126643

/tg/ doesn't hate katanas, if /tg/ hated katanas they would hate L5R. And we all know /tg/ lurvs dem some Rokugan.

>> No.11126651

>>11126582
Yes, because arming swords that you held in one hand with a shield were purely a product of the period when knights largely wore just chainmail and only had a plate helmet.
>>11126606
It'll sort of nick chainmail, but it won't really penetrate it with a cut. Thrusting *might* get you somewhere, I'd need to see a test against it.

>> No.11126656

Do ninja use katana or is it samurai class exclusive

>> No.11126662

>>11126606
good thing the samurais main weapons were bows, spears, or eventually guns

>> No.11126670

>>11126626
>Jap plate was decent. It would be enough to stop a European sword blade, and did stop Katanas.
real question is, who got to wear the plate armor? regular troops sure didn't.

>> No.11126687

>>11126670
Samurai only, I'm afraid. Ashigaru were more likely to be encountered using the lacquered wooden armors than actual samurai.

>> No.11126691

>>11126606
All swords are great at killing unarmored foes.

And a katana would NOT cut through chainmail. It would probably still break bones, though. Even if the blade doesn't touch you, you're still getting hit with a long rod made of metal being swung very quickly.

Wearing chainmail changes things from "sliced in half" to "hit in the chest with a goddamned baseball bat" in terms of damage inflicted. You still don't want to get hit, but you can live through the latter.

The problem with chainmail is piercing weapons. Like arrows. Which the Japs loved. Those will still kill you dead.

>> No.11126695

>>11126656
Ninja were just assassins. And assassins use whatever fucking works.

Ninja, however, mainly farming equipment and the like, since that was what they had on hand and they were sort of trained to pretend like simple farmers and serfs or whatever.

>> No.11126697

>>11126606
Granted, the thing about the modern day is true, but another simple truth is that when we get down to what kills unarmored people, we enter the realm of redundancy. Even in the civil war, people didn't bother sharpening their sabers, you could kill a man just by parting his flesh with the wedge of the blade. An estoc kills someone just as dead as a Katana, and you might be able to go toe to toe with someone armored as well.

>> No.11126707

>>11126670

Shield are everywhere

>> No.11126721

>>11126662
brofist

>> No.11126739

>>11126707
Right, especially in Japan.

>> No.11126741

I fap to kanata once

pic related

>> No.11126743

>>11126633
That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork Copy Pasta” bullshit that’s going on in the d20 system right now. This Copy Pasta deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine copy pasta in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of neckbeard with my copy pasta.
Japanese trolls spend years working on a single copy pasta and write it up to a million times to produce the finest trolling known to mankind.
Copy pastas are thrice as annoying as European trolls and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a troll can annoy, a copy pasta can annoy better. I’m pretty sure a copy pasta could easily annoy a neckbeard on a $2,000 computer with a simple pasts.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined trolls and their copy pastas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the copy pastas first because their annoying power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Copy pastas are simply the best trolls that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Copy Pastas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Annoyance 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Annoyance 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Copy Pastas in real life, don’t you think?

>> No.11126745

This has turned out to be an alright thread.

>> No.11126750

>>11126697
Katanas and other curved blades (sabers, shamshir, etc..) are still rather better at it than straighter blades, though.

>> No.11126752

debating who would win (japs vs. europeans) doesn't really work unless you're very selective in staging the battle. at the end of the day the europeans had enormous exposure to foreign (and wildly different) cultures and warfare, and so would be better prepared, more adaptive, etc.

it's like the fucking brits using chariots when the romans encountered them. no one had used chariots in hundreds of years, and they had been antiquated for hundreds before that. the romans were taken aback by them, sure, but they adapted quickly. why? because they'd conquered the fucking world, fought wildly different opponents, incorporated foreign technologies into their own..

saying things like "EUROPEANS RELIED ON SHOCK CAV LMAO" is deceptive and downright wrong.

>> No.11126762

>>11126651
>Yes, because arming swords that you held in one hand with a shield were purely a product of the period when knights largely wore just chainmail and only had a plate helmet.
Is that actually true? I thought knights kept using swords for a long time after that, even if their primary weapon was the lance.

>> No.11126764

>>11126695
Most ninja were born as just peasants and farmers.
What we know as ninja today were peasants who taught themselves the arts of espionage and assassination to make themselves and their hometowns valuable assets to their local lord.
As long as they could prove themselves a worthy investment, they could continue to expect the lord of the land to provide protection from rival lords.

>> No.11126775

>>11126752
Don't really see what's wrong about it, the majority of European cavalry was used for shock attacks. Europe never really embraced the horse archer concept.

>> No.11126782

>>11126752
>is deceptive and downright wrong.
So is saying "the Europeans" as if there was any European Empire after the (mostly Asian) Roman Empire.

>> No.11126783

>>11126297
because katana's are swords.

The end. Motherfuckers exaggerate.

Their swords. They're not even great swords. Good? Yeah. Sure. Great? Fuck naw.

>> No.11126795

>>11126750
That's like saying a .357 is better at killing tied prisoners than a .38. Like, yes, it's true I guess, but the difference is immaterial if you know you're going to be killing tied prisoners. And what the cops show up? They don't make a .357 that carries more than six rounds except for the odious desert eagle (truly, the kanabo of firearms) but a .45 might carry you through.

>> No.11126796

>>11126750
The curvature lent itself to the cut, which is why sabers became the primary cavalry sword in the 18th and 19th centuries instead of say, the rapier.

>> No.11126797

>>11126762
They did, but by then the true longsword (what most people refer to as a bastard sword) was becoming more popular than the arming sword (which is what the average person thinks a "longsword" is).

>> No.11126811

>>11126651
Piercing swords could do it. Rapiers and Gladius and Spatha could go through chainmail.

Scale mail was the upgrade of chain and logical intermediate between chain and plate. The Romans preferred a kind of scale breastplate hybrid. The Greeks favored a solid breastplate, full helm and bigass shield, along with a few smaller bits.

The Japanese went for the equivalent of full plate, as did the Europeans. Shields weren't as essential for full plate wearers, as swords just weren't going to kill them unless the other guy got lucky.

The Chinese went for full ranged warfare and didn't focus much on armor. Mongols went for scale and silk armor (easier to pull out arrows). Middle east went for chain and scale and lighter armor, focusing on fast attacks.

Plate was definitely best if you could afford it, but no one could outfit an entire army with it. Only weapon for it are blunt weapons that crush the armor and suffocate the wearer by leaving them no room to breathe, or smashing their head and snapping their neck through the force of the blow.

Legs were also a valid target for most militaries, particularly the greek model. They compensated by draping leather sheets from the bottom of their shields. Helped protect from arrows.

>> No.11126819

>>11126691

Truth.

>> No.11126831

>>11126795
Yes, in the end you'll still die no matter what hits you. The point is, a curved blade makes it *easier* to ensure that you get deep enough to kill.

>> No.11126832

>>11126797
>longsword
You mean the thing people mean when they say "claymore", which was itself actually a more precise fit for the "bastard" category, where the longsword was a proper two-hander HUEG FUCK.

>> No.11126833

Will your japan sword defeat my aryan armor

>> No.11126837

>>11126775
I think the problem is suggesting that that is all of European warfare. If there is anything the French have taught us, it's that relying solely on heavy cavalry is a good way to get your shit destroyed. You NEED supporting elements, pikemen, halberdiers, voulges, anything that you can use to deter enemy charges, and missile troops (crossbows represent, fuck your longbows goddamn) to whittle down your enemy's charge-stoppers. THEN you shock-charge.

>> No.11126840

>>11126573
>>11126523

Source?

>> No.11126850

>>11126837
I personally never meant to imply that, but I see where you're coming from.

>> No.11126861

>>11126840
not sure...

>> No.11126864

>>11126670

The knights and at the end of the middle ages and forward regular soldiers

>> No.11126875

Straightblade swords are used for stabbing. This is very useful when you have a shield. In formation, this means you can simply hold up your shield and stab forward around it.

Curved blades are primarily for cavalry. Slashing as you ride by, or slashing downward.

Long straight blades with an edge are more generalist weapons. They're still stabbing weapons, but can do some decent slashing as well. They're not good for cavalry, but they add a few more moves to the infantryman's list.

>> No.11126876

>>11126837
>fuck your longbows goddamn
Longbows are the next Katana.

>> No.11126879

>>11126832
Longswords COULD be that size, but most of them were in that hand-and-a-half category. "Claymore" usually refers to either the old-school Scottish two-handers or those fancy basket-hilted straight blades from the 1700s.

>> No.11126902

>>11126879
*Cocodile Dundee voice*
That's not a longsword. Naow this. This is a lonsword.

>> No.11126927

>>11126902
Aw shit who let the fullblade wielder into the thread?

>> No.11126932

>>11126864
>The knights and at the end of the middle ages and forward regular soldiers
He was talking about Japanese troops, probably. Although, it's like, katanas are awesome and shit, except against plate. So it's no wonder katanas did good on the Japanese front where regular troops wore lacquered wood for armor, but bring that shit into medieval Europe with plate armor all over the place and see how well it does there.

CLANG CLANG CLANG

>> No.11126933

/tg/, medieval /k/ommandos.

>> No.11126934

>>11126875
That fits the katana, and similar Japanese swords, too. The whole style of fast, long, sweeping swordstrokes. It's really meant almost more for showmanship than for actual combat.

>> No.11126935

All swords are effeminate weapons for girly-men.

>> No.11126937

The Brits were definitely ranged specialists. They loved their longbowmen, which had the range and the power to penetrate plate armor.

The primary issue with bowmen in general (and especially longbowmen) is logistical in nature. It's hard as fuck to train them, tough to maintain them, and if some die so help you god you've got to wait years to replace them.

You can hand anyone a spear or a crossbow and say, "go kill that guy" and have him able to do so in a few weeks of training. Swordsmen? Not too much worse.

But archers? Archers are horrible. You basically have to devote yourself entirely to producing them in order to have good ones.

The Brits did it. The chinese did it. The Mongols did it. The Scythians did it. On and on.

The lesson? Bows in general are fucking awesome, but you don't ever get as many as you like.

>> No.11126960

>>11126932
If the Japanese had to engage a European knight, their swords would have reflected the need to get through full plate armor.
As you say, they mostly face peasant wearing lacquered wood. They never needed much more than that.
Thus these arguments are stupid but /tg/ just loves tooting it's BAKA GAIJIN horn to piss off weeaboos whenever katanas are brought up.

>> No.11126986

here we go with the English longbowman.. their long bows were basically glorified walking sticks with strings attached. there's no mastercraft involved in it, they were just REALLY long sticks.

>> No.11126989

>>11126934
Uh...most styles of kenjutsu doesn't employ too many long sweeps. Most motions are fairly crisp and direct.

>> No.11126994

>>11126934
It was designed for what it was used for - hybrid swordsmen that fight on horseback and on land. Those broad swinging strokes are useful on horseback, and are also useful on land when you have armor that can protect you well enough.

Katanas and other curved, two handed weapons are fine to use on land when you're in plate or the local equivalent.

>>11126932
Their armor was not shit. It was often enough basically just pretty, well decorated metal plate armor.

>> No.11127007

>>11126989
As is any martial art system built for actual combat.

>> No.11127032

>>11127007
Exactly. Itto-ryu is, in fact...outright BORING to watch.

>> No.11127058

>>11126986
And a pike is just a long stick with a metal tip. Doesn't mean it doesn't kill Frenchmen dead.

>> No.11127062

American Flatbows were here. English longbows are small time.

>> No.11127082

Great article here on cutting and thrusting sword styles.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html

>> No.11127084

>>11127062
That man can't even grow his own hair. You expect us to believe he can into archery.

>> No.11127095

>>11127084
I loled.

>> No.11127096

>>11127062
Hungarian Recurve here, get the fuck off my lawn.

>> No.11127125

>>11126960
That's it. I'm sick of all this "+8 AC" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Gothic plate armour deserves much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine suit of Gothic plate in Hamburg for 2,400,000 Euros (that's about ninety billion US dollars) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even absorb slabs of solid steel with my Gothic plate.

German smiths spend years working on a single suit of armour and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest armour known to mankind. Gothic plate is thrice as fluted as Asian lamellar and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a yoroi can deflect, Gothic plate can deflect better. I'm pretty sure a suit of Gothic plate could bisect a katana with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Japan never bothered conquering medieval Europe? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined knights and their indestructable Gothic plate. Even in World War II, Japanese soldiers targeted the men in the Gothic plate first because their staying power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Gothic plate is simply the best armour that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Gothic plate:

+12 AC, immune to critical hits, counts as Masterwork, DR10/-

Now that seems a lot more representative of the defensive power of Gothic plate in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Full Plate needs more defense in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.11127144

>>11127096
>Hungarian

>> No.11127160

>>11126937
>They loved their longbowmen, which had the range and the power to penetrate plate armor.

Actually, to penetrate plate armor, the archer must be close, otherwise it just glances off. What made longbows so deadly against cavalry was that horses weren't armored since most knights couldn't afford a second armor, and even when they could, the horse's armor just couldn't cover it's body the same way plate armor could cover a human's. So when the horse gets killed the knight falls very fast because it was charging and probably get's knocked unconscious and/or the horse falls on him.

>> No.11127163

>>11127125

I lol'd

i teared

i lol'd again.

You win serious lots of intanetz man

>> No.11127170

>>11127096
Yumi here. I have to be shot from the lower third and I'm at least a foot taller than the dude who fires me. Your argument is invalid.

>> No.11127187

>> No.11127197

>>11126937
Every Brit was required to practice for two hours every day with his longbow.
That law was never repealed, it's just not enforce anymore.
Except in one small parish.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10300924

>> No.11127206

>>11127187
looks impossible to actually hit with, but the sort of thing that would send lesser men running when you start to swing it around

>> No.11127238

>>11127170
It's not what you shoot, it's how you shoot it.
Call me when you're a smokin' hot chick who can shoot a bow with your feet.
http://www.yikers.com/video_another_hot_girl_shoots_bow_and_arrow_with_feet.html

>> No.11127255

>>11126811
>Only weapon for it are blunt weapons that crush the armor and suffocate the wearer by leaving them no room to breathe, or smashing their head and snapping their neck through the force of the blow.
Did people use blunt weapons (aside from possibly the warhammer) to actually break or dent the armor? I always though it was all about blunt-trauma, as in the shock of the blow transmitted through the armor.

>> No.11127268

>>11127206
Not a man in decent armor. He'd know it didn't have the force to do shit to him and just rush the user with his sword.

Even if it wounded him, the armor would prevent any lethal blows.

A sword, however, is a very different beast.

Oh, and for those talking about Japanese swords and armor, there is the Kanabo and other blunt weapons designed for heavily armored foes.

Of course in reality the Japanese were a spear specialist culture, like the Greeks and Swiss and early Romans. You should focus on that.

>> No.11127275

>>11127206
With years of practice you could be quite accurate with one. Still, the general tactic was to keep your opponent at bay and off balance until he made a move towards you which would drop his guard and leave him open for a hook, or at very least a very blunt hunk of metal on the end of a chain smack him upside the head.

>> No.11127280

>>11127238
That video is freakin' awesome.

>>11127255
It was mostly about transmitted blunt force, but depending on the design of your weapon and how you landed your hit, actual armor penetration could happen too.

>> No.11127282

Approach /tg/'s opinion of katana as you would any weapon mentioned in any amount of detail in the hands of a named and possibly enemy NPC:

-> One [any non-western weapon] in a western setting = run for your lives, the DM has a splat book!

-> One [western weapon] in an eastern setting = run for your lives, the gaijin are invading with cannons!

-> Thousands of X in any setting = start complaining and researching how they'd function in the real world to refute botched dice rolls.

>> No.11127287

>>11127206
it was basically a grappling hook/dagger/throwing knife/binding tool.

>> No.11127295

>>11127280
What he said.

>> No.11127297

>>11127197
This rocks.

>> No.11127302

GENERAL KATANA REPORTING IN?!?!?

>> No.11127316

>>11127268
It's true. While it's also true that swords were extremely highly regarded, it was really the good ol' yari that took up most of the burden of fighting wars in Japan.

>> No.11127325

>>11127255
The only time you'd end up suffocating an opponent is if you smacked then dead center in the middle of their breastplate. If you were the least bit competent with your weapon, you'd aim for the head, neck, shoulders, arms or legs. Basically anywhere where the armor is not sufficient to disperse and as you say, just rely on the blunt force trauma. None but a solid blow to the head would be a kill, but disarming or crippling your opponent would be easier and lead to an easier kill later.

>> No.11127339

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Puppy" bullshit that's going on in the d20 right now. Kittens deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine kitten at petsmart for $100 (that's about 20 bags of kibble) and have been playing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even warm the heart of the most cynical anon with my kitten.

Petsmart employes spend years working on a single kitten and stroke it up to a million times to produce the softest fur known to mankind. Kittens are thrice as cute as puppies and thrice as soft for that matter too. Anything a puppy can do, kittens can do better. I'm pretty sure a kitten could bisect a katana with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why dog owners never bothered conquering cat owners? That's right, they were too scared to fight the kittens and their claws of d'aww. Even in World War II, Japanese soldiers targeted the men with kittens first because they wanted the kittens themselves.

So what am I saying? Kittens are simply the best pets that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for kittens:

(One handed small animal) 2d6 +5 cuteness 18-20 chance to d'aww Counts as masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cuteness of kittens in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Kittens needs more cuteness in d20, see my new stat block.

>> No.11127343

>>11127316
Yari's were easy to make and easy to hand out to the peasants to add meat to the samurai bones of your army.

>> No.11127345

Speaking of yari? If you like them, I'd suggest checking out...I believe it's The Hidden Fortress that has a really cool yari fight in it.

>> No.11127379

>>11127287
A Halberd was the actual military version of a weapon like that. One that was useful in battle.

The thing to remember here is that a lot of the weapons we're comparing are used for two different purposes entirely, and not nearly as useful in the other arena. Those two purposes are in battle, and dueling.

A weapon like that is fine for duels (provided the other guy isn't in heavy armor), just as a rapier is.

In actual war, you'd want a heavy scimitar or falchion or broadsword or gladius or spatha, depending on your equipment.

There's just an enormous difference between duelling and battlefield warfare and the usefulness of various weapons in those areas.

The best weapons to use in both are hybrids. Slightly curved weapons that can also be used as thrust weapons. And yes, the Katana is one of those weapons. So are slightly curved heavier scimitars, and the Greek Kopis.

Winning a fight is really all about giving yourself a lot of options and the enemy very few, then using your best options while trying to make sure the enemy uses his worst. Versatile weapons are powerful ones for that reason. They give you lots of options.

>> No.11127404

>>11126537

Fucking disturbing that someone actually drew this.

>> No.11127408

You know what I don't like about katana? Almost every reincarnation of Kusanagi-no-Tsugi ends up being either a katana or based on the basic design of a katana, rather than something that would have existed in the era it is said to have been forged...

>> No.11127410

Naginata was here.
Katana's are faggots.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6907700861222526404#

>> No.11127414

>>11127379
This is likely also why as time moved on, ancient Chinese soldiers moved away from using the jian as their main infantry sword in favor of the dao.

>> No.11127415

>>11127408
How long have you been waiting for an opportunity to air this grievance?

>> No.11127416

>>11127325
That depends. The torso is a big target. It's hard to miss, so a lot of schools would go for it anyway.

Duelling is a different beast, but on the battlefield it makes sense to go for center-mass unless you're forced NOT to by the enemies armor. In the middle of a formation battle, chaos reigns and you go for the sure shot. You don't have room for fancy maneuvers and the guy next to you won't appreciate you not protecting him, just as you wouldn't want him not protecting you.

>> No.11127421

>>11127408
This.

>> No.11127438

>>11127316

>> No.11127452

>>11127408
You mean Ame no Murakumo?

Bitch wasn't even a sword. That whole thing with the Kusanagi was all just a misunderstanding.

>> No.11127471

>>11127410

But that's a katana on a stick.

>> No.11127486

>>11127471
Yes, the stick part actually makes all the difference in the world.

>> No.11127488

>>11127379
the thing is the Kyoketsu Shoge was a infiltration tool that doubled as a weapon

>> No.11127493

>>11127414
Makes sense. You want a blade with versatility. A heavy, slightly curved blade that can be used one or two handed, with decent length.

The Dao, the Scimitar, some Sabers, and yes, the katana, all fit this profile.

The Katana *IS* a good weapon. It's not the end-all-be-all some make it out to be, and it's not a piece of crap, either. It's a solid design, and about as useful as any other sword against plate. Which is to say not very.

Use a halberd or pike instead. Or shoot them with a bow capable of penetrating their armor. Or just beat them on the high seas before they ever get to shore.

You know what /tg/ doesn't have enough of?

Pre-Gunpowder Britain vs. Korean ships on the high seas. Because that would be FUCKING AWESOME.

The Japs and Chinamen and Spanish can come along too if they want. But their boats aren't as cool.

>> No.11127500

>>11127416
Keep in mind, that in the midst of battle, you're going to be choked up so far on your mace or hammer's handle they your main hand will be just below the head. You're not going to have the time or room to make a full-powered swing. You're just going to go for whatever you can swing at quickly and maintain control of the weapon. As such, you're going to see a lot of attacks bounce off the breastplate as your instinct is to hit the center mass of a fast-moving target.
Still, when brain power prevails, you'd want to aim for the more vulnerable spots.

>> No.11127508

>>11126775
Britain had fine horse archers though.

>> No.11127522

>>11127493
Pre-gunpowder English Navy? As in, implying that they really had one?

Also, Turtle ships are gunpowder.

>> No.11127523

>>11127486
Yes, and I'm glad that my wife was able to so effectively protect my household with it while I was away.

Though in all seriousness, naginata are fine weapons in their own right. They're sexy, have great reach and cutting power, and Japanese girls look awesome in kimonos wielding them.

>> No.11127537

>>11127523
I agree with what you say and god damn it, I read it in Zapp's voice.

>> No.11127542

>>11127508
Britain *did* have horse archers? This is new to me and I must know more.

>> No.11127571

>>11127522
Alright, fine. We'll use the Spanish, you big baby. Early era gunpowder. I suppose the Brits weren't much of anything before the 1700's.

Spain vs. Korea on the HIGH SEAS! Who will prevail?

>> No.11127576

>>11126762
They were using swords, but not shields. Wielding them two-handed (But technically it were bastard swords, real two-handed swords in modern meaning was heavy infantry's tier)

>> No.11127588

>>11127523
>Though in all seriousness, naginata are fine weapons in their own right. They're sexy, have great reach and cutting power, and Japanese girls look awesome in kimonos wielding them.

I agree on all points.

>> No.11127590

>> No.11127596

>>11126932
rofl what?
Oh yeah, just hordes of them fucking Europeans in their flawless platemail. But they're no match for those Americans. Every single one of them owns a tank. Good luck getting past all their built in howitzer cannons.

TANKITY TANKITY TANK!

>> No.11127602

>>11127571
Korea because ancient Korea was fucking awesome.

Oh, nice bows Europe and Japan.
Oh, this? It's called a Hwacha, what you don't have one? They're all the rage.

>> No.11127613

>>11127571
I don't know, but I would fucking pay real money to see the Spanish Armada take on the Korean navy under Admiral Yi.

>> No.11127616

>>11127602
I'm sure I've seen HWACHA used as a porno sound effect before.

>> No.11127626

>>11127542
Mounted longbowmen. Kind of an elite corps.

Middle Ages weren't a video game, if something worked everyone used it.

>> No.11127628

>>11127596
well, for army vs. army it would really be spear vs spear and bow vs bow...
or bow vs gun depending on the time period
Samurai vs. Knight would be like the elite of both civilizations facing off against one another

>> No.11127644

>>11127571
>>11127602
Yes, Korea would win, but no, it's not because ancient Korea was fucking awesome. It's because Korea eat cat. You just can't fucking compete with that.

>> No.11127649

>>11127616
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha

do yourself a favor and read something historical instead of an H duojin for once

>> No.11127651

>>11127408
Actually, it's a jian in Naruto. Yes, only Naruto is historically accurate enough to display the Grass-Cutting Sword is it would really be.

>> No.11127666

>>11127626
Huh. Never heard of that 'til tonight. Very interesting.

>> No.11127671

>>11127651
That's probably the only thing Naruto has ever done right. And probably just by accident.

>> No.11127681

>>11127651
wow, that's +1 point for Naruto
never thought I'd say that

>> No.11127698

Naruto doesn't take place in the past though.

>> No.11127736

>>11127698
The snake dude specifically mentions that throat-sword being the Grass-Cutter Blade.

>> No.11127760

>>11127644
Yeah, actually come to think of it, Admiral Yi was a genius and the Spanish Admirals were... not.

Spain was continuously fucked by everyone on the high seas despite having lots of cool boats, actually. That's just the arrogance that comes with having lots of cool boats.

They're just cruising around, saying, "You can't stop me motherfucker cause I'm on a boat!" but then other people on boats did.

People like Yi. Except British. And with poorer hygiene.

>> No.11127776

>>11127760
Indeed. Though, admittedly, I believe nature had a hand in fucking over the Spanish Armada as well.

>> No.11127792

Sup uberfags.

>> No.11127814

>>11127792
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- *opens harbors*

>> No.11127914

>>11127792

>> No.11127927

realistically, almost every single European weapon was a bludgeoning weapon for the most part of history. Armor, even chain mail, prevented slashes and the technology wasn't really there to sharpen blades. i would know, I am a SCA Blacksmith and have been for years.

Japanese weapons did tend to be sharpened and were designed to cut and slash.

And yes curved weapons outperform straight because they leave a longer "draw", or struck surface.

As has been said already, cultures used what was good for them. Europe has heavy metal plate, used bashing weapons. japan had less metal armor, used cutting weapons. Persians fought everyone, and had everything just in case.

>> No.11127964

>>11127644
Eat cat is kind of synonymous for awesome.

>> No.11127967

>>11127542
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpHB-flwJQ

>> No.11127990

>>11127967
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e2flsBUs3c
more

>> No.11128003

my guess the way this thread have been going, OP realize why some fa/tg/uy hate katana

>> No.11128012

>>11127927
People in SCA usually don't know anything about medieval equipment or combat.

>> No.11128027

>>11128003
My hope is that we've managed to debunk myths both excessively positive and excessively negative in this thread.

>> No.11128069

>>11127649
>Siege weapon
>Range of 100 meters

>> No.11128085

>>11127990
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFEorohRiZ4

>> No.11128147

>>11126902
>>11126927
Did anyone ever fight with anything like that IRL? Note: I'm not asking if it's a good idea, just if anyone did. It seems unlikely, but I figured I'd ask the residen/tg/eniuses.

>> No.11128169

>>11128147
Not as a personal weapon, no. Not a chance. Those actually didn't get very big.

>> No.11128201

>>11128169
Yeah. Nobody ever really used anything like that.

>> No.11128547

>Korea because ancient Korea was fucking awesome.

At least they looked fucking great.

>> No.11128581

>and the technology wasn't really there to sharpen blades.

The middle ages were the time when people could not make flat stones.

Taht is why all buildings were made out of wood.

>> No.11128599

There's alot of ahtred for Katanas due to weaboo bullshit aobut them cutt everything and being the best designed swords ever.

Persoanlyl I quite like them but they definitely aint the best swords designed, I'm just a fan of the old Kurosawa samurai films, back when the Japs could be quite tough looking

>> No.11128651

>and the technology wasn't really there to sharpen blades.

The middle age: An age of blunt knifes and blunt scythes.

>> No.11128665

>>11128651
>knifes

>> No.11128678

The Katana was a great weapon for doing what it did the most:
Kill peasant revolts and civilians.

>> No.11128784

>>11128147
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanbat%C5%8D
In short, No.
But there were some swords that weren't as big as that one that was used against cavalry.

>> No.11129231

>>11127927

SCA-fag its not that swordsharpening was a fulltime job in parts of medieval europe. And they had the technology to do it. Inkluding hugeass sharpening wheels.

>> No.11129573

>People couldn't sharpen blades in the Middle Ages
Just like they couldn't make blades or arrowheads or anything sharp? I mean, making iron is one thing - but understanding how to make a blade sharp? Fuck man, Neanderthal man could have taught medieval Europe a shitload!

>Everyone has full plate mail in Europe, and it was used for a long period of time.
Wow. I don't know what to say. Full plate makes an appearance, gunpowder makes an appearance, goodbye full plate.

Not to mention crossbows. You have armor on? Cool story, bro.

>> No.11129658

>>11126606
riotguard anti-stab armor, also grossesmesser fuckyeah

>> No.11129758

>>11129573

Actually gunpowder appeared and was used in battle nearly a century before full plate appeared in the late 1300s. And then they continued to co-exist for a couple more centuries (at least up to the 1600s) after that quite well.

>> No.11129815

>>11129758
main problem with the early gunpowder weapons was accuracy and reliability, most of the guns caused more panic then actual damage and if the barrel of the gun was weak or poorly made it could explode in he gunners face, thats why early gunmen wore plate armor. also reloading took its time, bows were more accurate and faster.

>> No.11129823

>katana

>> No.11129834

We don't hate katanas. We just hate people who praise them as the greatest weapon ever because they know nothing about them other then what they watched in Kill Bill.

>> No.11129838

As a historian, reading these threads is like a lot of science vs religion debates, where the religion side spouts so much shit so quickly that each point being so wrong that that it'd take about 5 to 10 minutes per point to explain just why that's so wrong, so there's no real opportunity to actually successfully correct anyone or even point them in the right direction to learn why they're so wrong before the next guy says something even more retarded as a counterpoint.

>> No.11129859

>>11129838
get lost in space gramma, this is about katanas

>> No.11129868

>>11129859
>obtain Lost In Space grammar

DANGER! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

>> No.11129871

I was hoping to read this book, but katana, so I didn't.

>> No.11129881

>>11126573
Edited obviously. Not you, but some angry weaboo and/troll made that.
you can tell because the katana's blade is a western blade in the close up and suddenly becomes strait on the impact

>> No.11129891

>>11129834
> We just hate people who praise them as the greatest weapon ever because they know nothing about them other then what they watched in Kill Bill.

Or too much animu in general.

>> No.11129896

Exotic Weapon

>> No.11129900

>>11129871

Don't bother. If you are a teenager or a college freshman it's the greatest thing ever. If you're getting closer to 30 it's really eye-rolling.

>> No.11129916

>>11129871
That's different; the main character's name is Hiro Protagonist, a katana is actually a suitable weapon for him.

>> No.11129926

I respect the katana. It's a great weapon. Many experts laud it as among the greatest weapons in history, and so do I. It's not my favorite though, and it just doesn't have the iconic value that European weapons have.

That's all I gotta say on it, really.

>> No.11129932

What I want to know is where people are getting their fanciful notions of chainmail and other armors?

Historical chainmail is not made with spring steel. You cannot temper the wire in the way you can a sword. The strength of the blow is spread across the number of links that it impacts upon, allowing the individual links to be many times stronger than their personal strength.

But longsword, katana, whatever, if it is a clean hit with the full power of someone body plus the mass of armor, sword etc, coming down on the chain it will break.

Armor is not designed to stop a clean hit. It just turns near hits aside. The tip of a sword is very dangerous without armor, with it, it will scrap across and you will be saved. Armor reduced the amount that you need to avoid a blade to be safe.

A katana's curved edge converts the compression force into shear force. This is great against skin or leather and not so great against metal. Armor is awesome, but it is not like a katana is going to bounce off just because it is optimised against another style. Clean hits will still fuck you up.

>> No.11129941

>>11129932

And fuck the katana up, too.

>> No.11129955

>>11129941
Fuck it up as in bend it in half? Nah.

A body doesn't have the resistance level of an anvil or a vise. What you see in youtube videos is not what happens when someone gets hit. A katana is most of an inch wide, so long as the body is not up against a wall or something it will be fine.

Fuck the edge up? Most likely.

>> No.11129958

>>11129932
Valid point, and well said! That's why Europeans had weapons like axes, which cleaved right through plates or chains, or mauls which practically rendered armor useless. Stabbing weapons were also particularly useful against almost all kinds of armor.

>> No.11129996

>>11129958
Yeah axes are great vs high resistance. Which is why we chop down trees with them rather than a sword. They focus all the mass and the edge into one spot. Which makes them much easier to dodge or turn aside.

I kinda see the history of weapons and armor as a game of paper scissor stone. The more you optimise towards one solution the more you open up another fault. Eventually someone will invent a specialised weapon to exploit it and down you go.

>> No.11130000

>>11129958

Funny thing about axes, hammers and maces. People often assume they're slow as shit and easy to avoid by simply dodging and stuff like that. And in truth, most of those one-handed impact weapons are actually lighter than a sword.
One reason is that their hafts are wood, whereas a sword is mostly steel. Another is that when people think of a battle axe, they often think of some Conan-esque bullshit fairytale double-bitted axe with a huge, heavy head. In reality, actualy battle axes and other impact weapons had smallish heads, and they were made to be as light as possible. A woodcutter's axe has a lot thicker head, for example.
Of course, there were some steel-hafted war hammers, maces and axes in the later periods, but most of the time it was all wood

The only reason impact weapons are considered cumbersome is because they require, by their very nature, large movements. Not slow or clumsy, but still large.

>> No.11130003

>>11129958
Mauls are for breaking rocks not bashing skulls.

>> No.11130011

Because weeaboo, neckbeard, mallninjas are incredibly gigantic faggots. Well-made katana are very nice. They don't, however, cut through tanks, cut European-style broadswords in half, nor stand up very well to direct-contact blade parrying. They are for quick slicing and very fast, kendo-style fighting. A wielding a katana, even very well, does not give you super powers.

>> No.11130030

>>11130000

Oh, and because they required a lot less training to use effectively (swords are versatile and have great many different techniques, but with impact weapons it always boils down to "1. Raise weapons. 2. Hit man. 3. IF man_state=alive, goto 1"), impact weapons got bad rap as a peasant's clumsy, unwieldy weapon.

Of course, history has shown that they were pretty damn effective, no matter what some people thought.

>> No.11130055

>>11130011

Indeed. A katana is a certain kind of a sword, meant for certain kind of usage, and nothing more. I don't really hate katanas per se, as it would be like hating a stone. It's a weapon among other weapons, and there have been better weapons and worse weapons.

>> No.11130075

>>11130003
> Mauls are for breaking rocks
This is true, as are picks. Both of which found their way into combat under the right circumstances.

If you armor yourself to hell, you generally become very slow. At which point you find it hard to dodge and weapons that's primary flaw is avoidance become more effective.

With an axe you are swing something with a danger zone about two - three inches across. If you are up against good armor, that is not too dissimilar to the danger zone of a sword. With a pick or a lucern hammer, its under an inch.

The type of armor changes the solution.

>> No.11130092

>A katana's curved edge converts the compression force into shear force. This is great against skin or leather and not so great against metal. Armor is awesome, but it is not like a katana is going to bounce off just because it is optimised against another style. Clean hits will still fuck you up.

This blade can cut metal.
Notice how this is not a Katana or any other type of sword.

>> No.11130097

>>11126573
Lol fun shop

>> No.11130104

>>11130075

There isn't really great amounts of dodging in combat as opposed to parrying or blocking, you know. Other than backpedaling the fuck out, you aren't going to be fast enough to do anything nearing avoiding a sword mid-blow.
And no, armor does not turn you into a cumbersome tank. With proper raining, you can easily run, jump, do cartwheels and what have you in heavy armor.

>> No.11130111

>>11130092
ummm?

>> No.11130128

>>11130092

Also notice how it uses an entirely different principle to achieve that. Namely, leverage and scissoring against an object fixed in place.

>> No.11130132

>>11130104
This is correct.

>> No.11130139

>>11130104
Dodging doesn't require you to get completely out of the way. If you are wearing clothes, then either stepping in or out completely is required. With armor, you just need to move enough to allow a straight hit to become a glancing hit.

In the same way, parrying doesn't mean stopping the other weapon.

If redirecting by two inches is enough, then doing so by a couple of feet will probably throw you off balance and make you vulnerable.

>> No.11130153

>>11130128
Yes, I did notice that. It has a comparable weapon in history.

This weapon is the guillotine. Not very effective in the field, but great if you can get your enemy to walk over and stick their body in the impact zone.

>> No.11130165

>>11130000
Swords weren't all that heavy in the first place, a 1 handed sword could easily weigh 4 pounds. (one thing d&D actually got right for once!)

People scoff, thinking that an arming sword (a longsword is a hand-and-a-half weapon) weighing 4 pounds would be too light.

That's the whole goddamn point, swords were meant to be light, so you could fucking swing them fast as hell.

>>11130075
Plate mail didn't slow you down that much, people knights could jump onto horses from the ground and preform acrobatics (cartwheels and shit) in plate, they trained specificly to maintain mobility in full armour.

>> No.11130174

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Hemmingway" bullshit that's going on in the d20 right now. Hemmingway's deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Hemmingway at poetmart for 100 slaves (that's about the price of innocence or a moonbeam held in your hand) and have been playing with him for almost 2 years now. I can even warm the heart of the most cynical anon with my kitten.

Hemmingways angst for years to produce the most emo poetry known to mankind. Hemmingways are thrice as angsty as Keats, and for that matter thrice as wordy, too. Anything a Keats can do, Hemmingways can do better. I'm pretty sure a Hemmingway could bisect a katana with a simple vertical scream.

Ever wonder why Keats never bothered Hemmingway? That's right, they were too scared to fight the Hemmingways and their emo. Even in World War II, Japanese soldiers targeted the men with Hemmingways first because they wantedto shut the angsters up.

So what am I saying? Hemmingways are simply the best poets that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Hemmingways:

(One person epic mount) 3d6 sonic damage from angst scream, 19-20/x10 damage on a crit to ones sad ego.

Now that seems a lot more representative of the poetry's of Hemmingways in real life, don't you think?

>> No.11130187

>>11127408
Usagi Yojimbo had Kusanagi no Tsurugi as an older-style broadsword. Because Stan Sakai knows history. Bitch.

>> No.11130198

>>11130165

4 pounds? That's more than a bit heavy for a one-hander. I'd say that 2.5 to 3.5 is a more realistic range.
Of course, a bastard sword or a larger two-hander could be that much. But even those aren't going to get exactly hugely heavy, as you said.

I wrote that post you quoted, and I do agree with you. Which means people would be even more amazed about how light most impact weapons tended to be. Since the mindset seems to be that it's only the weight that matters, not the design.

>> No.11130200

>>11130165
> Plate mail didn't slow you down that much
Ok, lets look at that. If you have someone who can jump up onto a horse's back without assistance and can do cartwheels and backflips, what do you think they can do WITHOUT the armor on?

Armor that covers the joints, is thick enough to turn aside sword blows, all encompassing enough to not have holes Will make you slower and less enabled than if you did not have it on.

Getting up from a lying position in full armor is not easy. Being knocked down makes recovery hard. At which point you become much more vulnerable to pin point weapons such as picks, mauls and axes.

>> No.11130210

>>11130187
Fuckin love that Comic.

Didn't Stan Sakai also work on Spiderman?

>> No.11130228

>>11130210

Kind of. He started out as a letterer, and he did that for the Spider-Man newspaper comic strip for a long while - he also lettered "Groo", which is why Usagi and Groo each have had cameos in each others' comics.

Also, I really want to see Samurai Hulk now. http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.9943.strange_tales_spotlight~colon~_stan_sakai

>> No.11130235

>>11130228

Speaking of which...
Yeah, I really need to find this comic now!

>> No.11130246

>>11130165

This is true, plate armor still allowed for great mobility. It wasn't uncommon for a trained knight in full plate to catch an unarmored less fit person while running.

That said, a full plate armor's main disadvantage isn't the weight, it's the heat. An armor like that breathes only at certain places, so you're going to get fucking hot. Or if it's the middle of the winter, the plates are deathly cold and you better hope you've stacked a lot of clothing underneath.
Oh, and if you wore your helmet, which is kind of an important thing, there was also the very, very real sense of claustrophobia and sensory deprivation. A full helm makes hearing very hard, greatly hinders periphery vision and generally just makes it harder to get the full picture.
Combine these two factors, as well as the fact you couldn't exactly take it off to shit or piss (but hopefully you had your page or other servant to take care of the cleaning) and whatever other nastiness, and the real problem wasn't the weight, but simply learning to cope with all that. And move in certain ways.

>> No.11130255

>>11130200
Yeah, and they specifically train for combat with armour on.

Everyone always over-estimates the weight and restrictiveness of plate.

The gear worn in WWI was much heavier.

Also full plate has straps and shit designed for proper weight distribution, which minimizes the encumberance of said armour.

Don't believe me? Old guy falling off a horse in full plate and getting right back up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg

Dude doing cartwheel in plate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg&feature=related

You lose! Good day sir!

>> No.11130278

>>11130200

Uhh, armor thick enough to protect against blows wasn't exactly thick. Less than 2 millimeters was more than serviceable. It wasn't meant to be some sort of an unyielding barrier that couldn't be breached - exactly because that would have meant horrible weight. A lot of armor, especially helmets, got smashed into horrible shape in battle, but that meant their owners generally didn't get the same fate.

And no, plate armor didn't cover the joints. Joints were covered with either leathear or chain.

And as for getting up from lying position, it wasn't exactly hard. This here's an older gentleman in a battle ready plate armor falling from horse and getting up just fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg

It's a very good show, by the way. Everyone should see it.

>> No.11130290

>>11126389
rapiers can't slash.

>> No.11130291

>>11130255
>>11130278

Well goddammit, my video was four minutes late.

WeaponsThatMadeBritainMind.

>> No.11130312

>>11130291
I'm suprised you beat me, honestly, I couldn't find the video on my favourites on youtube, so I had to search "plate falling off horse".

>> No.11130313

>>11130255
Gods you are like the armor equivalent of the katana guys.

There was never a perfect solution, ever. There will never be a perfect solution. The more you armor up, the more other options come to the fore.

Halberds are custom built to beat heavy armor. They become plentiful in response.

If you have a super fit guy who can get about in platemail, that does not mean that platemail does not inhibit your movement.

That is like saying that badass samurai's make katana's the best weapon in history. It the equipment we are discussing, not the wearer.

The capacity to make large strong sheets of armor with enough metal integrity to be beaten thin without rusting or becoming useless is an amazing advance.

It is not a perfect defense. The cost to make it, the upkeep required, the effects of the wearer, invention of new weapons, the creation of new fighting styles all play a factor.

>> No.11130334

>>11127486
How?

>> No.11130343

>>11130313
I'm not saying that you fucking retard.

You're the one claiming plate made you "very slow" and that it's hard to get up from the ground with it on.

People don't generally design armour to be useless, dumbass.

Next you're gonna start spouting off bullshit about how knights needed cranes to get onto a horse, or other retarded crap.

>> No.11130350

>>11126297
it reeks of weaboo fightan gaems
>simple

>> No.11130351

>>11130334
Better reach and leverage would be my guess.

>> No.11130360

>Why do /tg/ hate Katana's or anything/anyone relating to using it?

>240 posts and 50 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

How many years now have you faggots fallen for the same shit?

>> No.11130361

A real man uses a flamberge.

It was used to cut the legs off of charging horses, among other things.

Franchesca makes the perfect complement.

>> No.11130365

>>11130313

God you are like the armor equivalent of a weeaboo katanafag looking at an European longsword.

Nobody's telling you it's perfect. People are telling you it wasn't as bad as you think it was.

>> No.11130382

I knew I saved this for a reason

>> No.11130390

>>11130343

Well I hear a slight incline on the road was enough to make a knight fall over and fall down like a stack of bricks. Often they died because of that, since nobody could ever lift them up, no matter how many pulleys and oxen they got.
There's an account of a knight being shot from a catapult and collapsing the whole castle the army was attacking. It's said he reached terminal velocity and actually caused a minor earthquake.

>> No.11130394

>>11130382
Yes, and every single knight had hands as strong as a vice grip.

Just like how gothic armour could deflect cannonballs, right?

>> No.11130395

>>11130361
>It was used to cut the legs off of charging horses, among other things

Err, no.
Maybe on a rare occasion by a heroically brave/stupid person, but doing something like trying to cut the legs off a charging horse is a pretty good short cut to being brutally maimed and killed.

What they were good for is being big, scary and expensive. Perfect weapon for well paid, well trained and well equipped guards of commanders and banner bearers that might be expected to hold off multiple attackers at once simple by being big and fucking scary.

>> No.11130402

Since most of this shit has been broken down and hashed over well enough I'll just drop my 2 cents.

As has been demonstrated:
European swords are of better quality (in materials and craftmanship) in their respective period than Katanas (the "folded steel" was to work out imperfections in terrible terrible materials).
European swords are sharper, more varied, and more effective.
Katanas were used like a side-arm by most people armed with them, a last resort. It was not uncommon for the Katana to BREAK after making contact.

So, I dislike Katanas because of the hype. Both in the West and Japan (the Japanese had as much of a hard-on for "legendary sword crafted by [insert smith's name]" as weeaboos.

Katanas should be represented in RPGs as similar to longswords with a chance to break and a negative modifier against armor, blocking with a weapon, or attempts to break other weapons.

>> No.11130405

so to sum up what this argument about
Western swords > Eastern swords
basically

>> No.11130409

>>11130382

A sword of questionable quality tightly fixed in place edge-up is cut by a really hard downward stroke from a katana made from modern, globally available materials? Yeah, a big shocker there. Surely this proves that all katanas are the best sword ever.

>> No.11130417

>>11130343
*sigh*

If I wrestled a guy in full plate, I would kick his ass. I could not hurt him but I would find it much easier to trip him and knock him down.

He would have mass on his side, which is both a strength and a weakness.

20 kilograms is for end generation plate mail. It is with high quality tempered steel. The point at which that was an effective technology is about the same point that it was invalidated by other advances in technology.

All round armor is good for melee, where you cannot control your flanks. It is poor for dueling, which is why people got into rapiers and other light fast weapons.

There is a logic to both weapons and armor. There is no perfect armor. The technological necessities to make platemail like you want it all to be, were coincided with OTHER technological advances.

The romans could build light effective plate armor, but did not cover their entire body, because they valued mobility and trusted in formation to protect their flanks.

>> No.11130422

>>11130405


Don't generalise, Chinese swords are the tits.

>> No.11130438

>>11130382

And YOU, WoWfag, haven't seen what happens when the swords are reversed.

Spolier: Katana shatters like a frostbitten dick.

>> No.11130459

>>11130438
frostbitten dick
lemee right that down
>Wowfag
hey thats just sterotyping D:

>> No.11130462

It's mostly just the kneejerk reaction to the prolonged weeaboo phase of the late 90s, early 2000s. Anime got really big due to the advent of tools that would allow people to download entire episodes off the internet. Also, there was a flood of anime being ported to western TV once the western markets saw how big a hit the Pokemon and Dragonball Z cartoons became.

The reaction for Comic shops in 1998 was to fill their shelves with as much pokemon merchandise as they possibly could, which ended up displacing/shrinking the stock of comics and traditional games. Those comic shops that survived afterward noted a decidedly lower number of sales of comics, and a shift towards the sales of Anime and Manga. Most comic book stores started to buy into it, stocking up on more and more of the stuff.

Meanwhile, the comic book nerds are freaking the fuck out, because they think it's Armageddon. Their comic collections are shrinking, the nerd circles at their schools are squealing about things being "So Kawaii" or discussing about how they love the show "Love Hina" because they can relate to the main character. For the furries, suddenly, the bulk of people who draw cartoons have switched over to anime, and those that have started deriding furry fandom as being creepy as shit. Their numbers began to dwindle.

>> No.11130466

>>11130409
... are you missing the point of the .gif?
Your sarcasm is telling me that you did.

The Katana not only failed to produce anything more than a NOTCH in the broadsword's blade (which isn't that remarkable, most blades end up with several notches after sustained combat) but it BROKE the Katana.

The .gif is half complete, too. Scroll up, a few ppl posted the full .gif. When the same test is done with the broadsword slashing the katana, it breaks the katana.

If you watch the episode, you'd find out both swords were accurate replicas, supervised by the military historians.

>> No.11130471

Enter about 2004-2005, 4chan is active by this point, and this is about the point where the Japanaphile, or "Wapanese", started to pick up, often pointed as the naruto-headbands-in-public sons of bitches. Fingers are pointed at some of the strange elements of Japanese culture, and though generally are a niche within a niche within a niche, are treated in the west as though it were mainstream practice.

Fast forward to 2007-Early 2008, Weeaboo is being slung as a harsh insult at anyone and any thing that is Japan-related material.

At this point, Furries have come out in the open on message boards, Furporn isn't ironic trolling, and anything vaguely related to japan, even if designed and manufactured in the western world, is met with cries of "Weeaboo Faggot".

This is why /tg/ hates Katanas. It's not that it's good or bad, it's that comic book nerds and furries are resentful that they'd been pushed to the back shelves, and that people think of the idiots back in highschool that went around wearing stupid shit and inserting Japanese words into english phrases. In both cases, they have come to assume that anything and everything out of Japan is badwrongfun and it must be derided.

That said, I can picture them jeering whenever a Honda Civic drives by.

>> No.11130480

Funny thing, I believe I know where some of those myths about swords that were capable of cutting swords originate from. Apart from bullshit, of course.

See, I know a guy who knows a guy who works with replica swords. He told me once about what an imperfect temper can do.
Apparently, if you mess up the tempering, for example by an imperfect quenching, it can form what he called a temper seam, which is basically undetectable visually. That seam is weak.
The sword might perform well for some time, but when the temper seam tires out, the blade can literally snap in two. He described the edges of the split as completely clean and as if cut by a sword.

So I guess it's not a huge stretch to think that sometimes, a smith would screw up the temper. It wouldn't be noticed for some time, and the blade looked just fine. Then in combat, when the warrior tries to parry someone's blow, the seam suddenly gives in and the blade snaps. For the other warrior, especially if his sword was well made and expensive, it could well look like he's just cut the other sword in half.

It's an intresting possibility, and has at least once happened in some live steel sparring practice.

>> No.11130481

>Halberds are custom built to beat heavy armor. They become plentiful in response.

No, not really. The connections between armour and weapons are only assumed. Mostly by people who lived roughly a thousand years after they had been used.

>European swords are of better quality (in materials and craftmanship) in their respective period than Katanas (the "folded steel" was to work out imperfections in terrible terrible materials).
>European swords are sharper, more varied, and more effective.

...different technique for different needs and cultures, man. We did just fine on the sea with our inferior sails made from cloth and our rigging that rots. We never tried to adopt the chinese rigging and sails either and it still worked fine.

>> No.11130493

>>11130466

Oh wait, sorry. I thought it was a bigger version of the earlier .gif. And I didn't actually watch it at all and were retarded.

>> No.11130507

>>11130471

And you say all this like it's a bad thing.

>> No.11130508

>>11130417
*sigh*
It depend on the skill of both you and your opponent.

Knight *Specifically* trained for combat in full armour, including wrestling and other forms of combat.

Twenty Kilo's isn't that heavy, when the weight of it is distributed over your entire body using armour custom-fit for your body it becomes even less so.

Your body adapts to the extra weight after a while, try putting weights into a backpack and wear it all the time, after a couple of months the weight will become much less noticeable.

Fullplate has much better distribution than a backpack.

I'm not saying it's indestrucible or anything like that.

I never have.

You're the one going on about how poor it is.

If armour was so goddamn useless it wouldn't've been invented in the FIRST place.

Plate stuck around for such a long time because the shit fucking worked.

>> No.11130521

>>11130481
BUT ONE HAS TO BE BETTER AT EVERYTHING RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT

>> No.11130537

>>11130508
> You're the one going on about how poor it is.
Quotes please.

>> No.11130542

>>11130508
Note: stuck around till guns were invented

>> No.11130543

>>11130343
some obese noblemen did indeed need cranes to be hefted onto their special bred horses when wearing the fuckmassive jousting armors, but that was because they were obese. being fat is good in jousting cause you're harder to topple over and your blows hit harder, but it's a death sentence in battle.

>> No.11130551

>>11130417

>If I wrestled a guy in full plate, I would kick his ass. I could not hurt him but I would find it much easier to trip him and knock him down.

And then he would smash you in the face with a gauntlet or a helmeted head butt once and you'd be trying not to choke on your teeth or shattered face.

>> No.11130573

>>11130542

>Stuck around until Sharpe was invented.

FTFY

>> No.11130580

>>11130537
>Well I hear a slight incline on the road was enough to make a knight fall over and fall down like a stack of bricks. Often they died because of that, since nobody could ever lift them up, no matter how many pulleys and oxen they got.
There's an account of a knight being shot from a catapult and collapsing the whole castle the army was attacking. It's said he reached terminal velocity and actually caused a minor earthquake.

>> No.11130588

>>11130543

Actually, that depends of how fat and what kind of combat. Fat doesn't imply weakness or inflexibility or slowness (although you will tire faster due to the extra bulk), it's just generally caused by the same thing those are, laxness and easy life.

You could be fat, but also strong and fast. And depending on what kind of a fight it is, your extra bulk might help. And it might not.

>> No.11130599

>>11130507
That five years of unwarranted Japaphilia has become five years of Japaphobia?

I would say so, the real ideal here being that anything Japanese just falls into neutral grounds or out of the limelight altogether.

But the furry shit? I just can't feel good about that, any way I look at it.

Even when it's well drawn furry stuff, I mostly just wince and think about what a waste it is that the artist doesn't stick to drawing humans, if they draw humans at all.

>> No.11130613

>>11130580

That's not by him. I wrote that as a joking, all too obvious post that wasn't in any way meant to be taken seriously.

>> No.11130615

>>11130599
it's their pencils, they can draw whatever the fuck they want.

>> No.11130621

>>>11130537
>Getting up from a lying position in full armor is not easy. Being knocked down makes recovery hard. At which point you become much more vulnerable to pin point weapons such as picks, mauls and axes.

>If you armor yourself to hell, you generally become very slow. At which point you find it hard to dodge and weapons that's primary flaw is avoidance become more effective.

>> No.11130629

>>11130580
>There's an account of a knight being shot from a catapult and collapsing the whole castle the army was attacking. It's said he reached terminal velocity and actually caused a minor earthquake.

>> No.11130632

>>11130599
>Furry Artist
>Draw humans
>Humans
unless you must be mistaking it for something thats non homosexual

>> No.11130633

>>11130613
>backpedaling so hard I reach terminal velocity and cause minor earthquakes.

>> No.11130640

>>11130615
And I'll continue feeling like it's a waste of their talents.

>> No.11130654

>>11130543
So then it's the fault of the guy being a colossal fatass rather than the armour's fault isn't it?

(I always hear people mention that, but I've never seen any proof for that, one way or the other)

>> No.11130658

>>11130480Funny thing, I believe I know where some of those myths about swords that were capable of cutting swords originate from. Apart from bullshit, of course.

europeans spread that, because rapiers are brittle and though their own medieval swords could break them, they were too busy making fun of them and everything else about dem dark ages.

>> No.11130664

>>11130580
Human terminal velocity usually is somewhere in the 120 mph range, depending in how his body is oriented and such.

And car crashes can happen fast than that, so why isn't there an earthquake at every NASCAR event?

>> No.11130700

I love wikipedia

>While it looks heavy, a full plate armour set could be as light as only 20 kg (45 pounds) if well made of tempered steel.[2] This is less than the weight of modern combat gear of an infantry soldier (usually 25 to 35 kg), and the weight is more evenly distributed.

>The weight was so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. Modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armour, though it is difficult. It is possible for a fit and trained man in armour to run after and catch an unarmoured archer, as witnessed in re-enactment combat.

> The notion that it was necessary to lift a fully armed knight onto his horse with the help of pulleys is a myth originating in Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

>> No.11130705

>>11130664
BECAUSE PLATE ARMOUR IS HEAVER THAN CARS HERP [email protected]

>> No.11130716

>>11130658

No doubt about that. I'm just saying incidents like that might have happened, is all.

>> No.11130734

>>11130664
there are, minor ones, like the ones caused by freight trains. you're overestimating the power of a minor.

>> No.11130751

>>11130700

Swimming in plate armor must be a really chaotic experience. I've had the luck to try out some plate once, and while it's entirely true that it's not all that heavy (although it does feel hindering for a first-timer), it feels really suffocating and hot if you're not used to it.

Definately requires a strong person, I'd say.

>> No.11130757

Swords are the cliched god-kings of overhyped, overromanticized weapons, when they're really average for most purposes with few real specialities and outclassed by nearly every other weapon.

Katanas are the alpha-swords when it comes to hype and being romaticized, and they're still just a fucking sword.

Few people give credit where it's due, axes, spears, polearms, maces, crossbows, thrown weapons, etc. No, it's all swords and bows.

>> No.11130758

>This is less than the weight of modern combat gear of an infantry soldier

Did you know that when a modern infantry soldier falls it's almost impossible to get up due to the sheer weight of their armour?

Also Modern Infantry armour is so heavy that soldier become very slow when wearing it, making them much more vulnerable to faster, unarmoured troops using rapiers and the like.

>> No.11130785

>>11130758

Yeah, they have to be lifted with a crane so they can get into troop transport vehicles at all.

>> No.11130794

>>11130700
the cranes seen in some jousting tapestries were using to move around heavy stuff like the armourer's anvil (for "on the spot" repairwork), dead horses and the occasional drunk nobleman.

>> No.11130817

>>11130734
I could see that,

but a dude wearing 50 pounds of armor? Definitely not registering on my richter scale

>> No.11130823

>>11130794

>And the occassional drunk nobleman

I can just imagine two servants looking at a passed-out noble lying in his own vomit and drenched in wine.
"Guess we need to carry the fat fucker out."
"So uh... you taking feet or shoulders?"
"... let's go get the fucking crane."
"Yeah."

>> No.11130825

european sword culture completely died out at some point and they looked down on their past as crude.

Japanese sword culture was maintained to modern times, that was considered admirable to westerners, so they praise the katana.

>> No.11130830

>>11130785
"Ramirez use cranes to get into your AFV!"
"Use smokes to cover your advance!"

>> No.11130856

>>11130785
that is actually true for spess mehrines, that's what the huge hatch on top of a rhino is for.

>> No.11130869

>>11130825
that's just a case of japanese dueling culture never getting into the "pistols at 20 paces" stage.

>> No.11130889

>>11130785

Stairs in middle-Eastern buildings and cities are actually built to halt attacks by modern marines. They work so well that the marines have to resort to bombing runs.

Saddam wasn't actually hiding, they just couldn't get into his bunker since they would have had to climb up a rope and some stairs to get there. They had to wait until he ran out of food before they lied that they had just found him.

>> No.11130893

>>11130825
>Japanese sword culture was maintained to modern times
It's not that it was maintained, it's just that the Japanese are very tradition and customs bound.
They chose their weapons and armors and stuck with them until they met with the rest of the world and basically just picked up stuff they liked.

>> No.11130896

>>11130869
Well to be fair, the west has had guns longer than Japan.

It's only been 100 years since the end of the Meji, after all, in another couple hundred years they'll be all over muskets and giant shooting lines.

>> No.11130934

>>11130889
"Sir that towelhead just jumped a fence!"
"Fuck, we can't reach him with our heavy armour, let's just lie and say we shot him."

>> No.11130961

>>11130896
>The West had guns longer than Japan
>Guns and gunpowder originated in China long before The West were introduced to them.

Now that's just slacking on Japan's part.

>> No.11130978

>>11130961
They were to busy learning how to wield 6 katanas at one time and shout out terrible english to learn such insignificant things like "gunpowder".

>> No.11130985

>european sword culture completely died out at some point and they looked down on their past as crude.

Victorian forgeries never happened. NO SIR IT IS IN FACT A LIE.

>> No.11131363

>>11130978
silly japs

>> No.11131954

>>11126523
>KATANA VS BROADSWORD GIF
>>11126573
>KATANA VS BROADSWORD GIF
>lol when they whack the katana with the broadsword the katana breaks
>when they whack the katana
>the katana

The sword strapped to the table? The one that breaks? IT'S ANOTHER GODDAMN BROADSWORD.

Note that it's straight. And has a blood groove. And lacks the triangular cross-section of the katana.

It's called a "control element" - the thing that doesn't change between experiments... The experiment being, in this case, "Striking a sword strapped to a table, with another one."

>> No.11132107

>>11131954
>whack the katana
They never whack a katana. They whack a broadsword with a broadsword, then they whack a broadsword with a katana.

The broadsword shatters the other broadsword. The katana bends when it hits the broadsword.

It's a valid experiement that shows the broadsword being stronger. If they did katana hitting broadsword, then broadsword hitting katana, that wouldn't really tell you anything about the comparative strengths because, as you said, the control element changes.

To see the experiment to its logical conclusion they should have had both the katana and broadsword hitting another katana, however.

>> No.11132179

>>11132107
>To see the experiment to its logical conclusion they should have had both the katana and broadsword hitting another katana, however.

True, but they'd have needed a backing that supported the curved length of the katana's blade - or you'd just be hitting an arch on a flat surface, and that's something you could EXPECT to break, no matter how fantastically made.

I would argue that both weapons are excellent examples of what they were expected to do -

Broadsword - whack through hard armors, or just wreck flesh. The edge cleaves, rather than cuts, and performs relatively poorly (even when sharp, which is rare) against materials like wool.

Katana - slice through soft or flexible armors, or just wreck flesh (very, very well). The edge cuts, and extremely well, but performs very poorly against materials much harder than bone or wood (such as metal).

>> No.11134261

>>11130961
kayakujutsu was the ninja art of fire and explosives, so although they didn't have guns they had gunpowder.

>>
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