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[ERROR] No.11122001 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Ok /tg/, I've gots me an idea, taken from another thread and I want to expand upon it.
Elves as the Byzantine Empire. Now hear me out, and then I'll get to my question.

The Byzantine empire, as you almost certainly know, were the mostly Greek speaking remnants of the Roman Empire. They occupied the gateway to the east, the narrow pass between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean. Though they were seperate and distinct from Rome, after an unfortunate schism in (I believe) the 3rd century, the Eastern Roman Empire was the true successor to the empire, though still only a shade of its former glory. The Roman ideals began to fade, and though the 'old ways' were held in high reverence, the truth was that there were simply not enough Romans living there to maintain the Legion and their pragmatic way of life. So, much of the Byzantine military was outsourced to mercenaries, with only a small core of their most elite troops being actual Byzantine citizens, and even then, the most elite of the elite were the Verangian Guard, who were Scandinavian and Englishmen recruited because of their political neutrality and 'outsider' status, to avoid another Praetorian Guard situation, with the Emperor's guards acting as kingmakers.

>> No.11122015

So, applying this to elves, let's look at it this way. The Elvish Empire, once a glorious bastion of civilization, has fallen onto hard times. Though once Elvish stock was the norm, now their population is mostly made up of half elves who, though civilized and not necessarily looked down upon, are still not held as first rank. The Elves still act as the elite class of warriors, with Kataphractoi being centuries old warriors well accustomed to mounted archer and lancing in full armor, but for infantry and supporting cavalry, they rely upon half elves and humans, maybe even dwarves.

So, in a fantasy setting, what would good Byzantine-style auxiliary/mercenary troops be? I'm looking for Verangian Dwarves, Hobgoblin Archers in the style of the Maygers, human knights bought out of France, etc. Give me your ideas, /tg/!

>> No.11122017

Turkey up in yo' shit

>> No.11122035

>>11122017
Fucking hobgoblins!

>> No.11122049

The origin of Trollking, revealed!

"I don't want to be here, but they took my boat."

>> No.11122060

>>11122017
So Turks get to be, what, humans?

Destroying The Empire in order to become The Empire is pretty much what humans do to any elven civilizations they encounter.

>> No.11122068

I like the idea of Elves being ridiculously heavy cavalry. Something about that tickles my irony bone.
"Hey, we're still elfy, we've got bows!" says the guy who can't even move his eyelids because of all the fucking chainmail.

>> No.11122078

That said, go to totalwar.honga.net or other Medieval 2 Total War website and look through the unit lists. Remember things like Greek fire, the Black Sea mercs, the Trebizond Archers, Latinkons, Skythions, etc.

>> No.11122135

>>11122068
They're heavy cavalry because they're riding treants into battle.

>> No.11122139

>>11122060
Humans could be turks, or Humans could be Franks. Both burned down Constantinople at least once. Depends on what you want the steppe-folk to be. If you like the idea of hordes of mounted hobgoblins (the suggestion of OP) ruining everyone's shit, go for it. If you prefer thinking of the Germans as orcs rolling in with their axes and zweihanders, all the more power to you.

My real question is what the fuck Dwarves are. Perhaps the Dwarves are the Rus, humans are the Arabic/Bedouin peoples, Elves are Italians and Greeks, and the Orcs are Gallic folk/Celts? It would actually fit Byzantine perceptions of people, if you're sort of basing all of this off of their worldview. They actually held the Turks in higher esteem than the Europeans, because at least the fucking Turks could be gracious in victory.

>> No.11122158

>>11122078
I've never played Medieval 2. Does it give a good representation of the Byzantines, or does it have them using crazy stuff like flamethrower troops and roman ninjas? Because I remember Rome Total War...

>> No.11122197

I like the idea of most of them being half elves, just because they can't keep their population up otherwise. One problem, if Romans were elves...
Wouldn't that mean the fucking Milanese are elves too? GOD DAMN THEM AND THEIR CROSSBOWS.

>> No.11122233

>>11122139

The Byzantines noted the Rus were taller, stronger, and more athletic than the Byzantines were.

Then again, the main source was Anna Komnena, who had her hand in her pants while writing it.

>>11122158

Heavy focus on spearmen, some swordsmen, some horse archers. Kataphractoi are like tanks, and Greek Flamethrowers were the only "gimmick unit." They were pretty much part Turkish HorseStorm, and part Frankish KnightSpam. Aspects of both, but excelling at neither.

I advise looking at Broken Crescent mod for "historically accurate" Byzantines.

>> No.11122255

>>11122197
I suppose it would, though by this point the Milanese had their share of Germanic sodomy. But because elves can't breed with orcs...
Dear god. You've got orcs and elves, all with crossbows, in goofy uniforms with giant shields, raining crossbow-bolty death down upon everyone.

>> No.11122279

>>11122233
I'm looking at the units now. Some of these are badass. Who armors horse archers?

>> No.11122313

>>11122279

The Turks first. Then the Byzantines got their shit wrecked, and tried it as well. But they did not have the mans to keep up with Turkey's zerging.

The Seljuks did it more though. Their Horse Archers were tanks with battle cannons essentially.

>> No.11122321

Orcs should be turks

cultured yet brutal in war

dorfs should be pike using scots

>> No.11122355

Take DBM book
Roll for army (you may find any other variation of that army if it suits better later)
Apply fictional archetype

Viking Elves
Samurai Dwarves
Minoan Orcs
etc

>> No.11122357

>Humans could be turks.

...

I'm okay with that. On the periphery of the Persian Empire, learned the scientific method, got some of their journals circulated, outlasted those fascist fucks in Rome. Hm.

Would Romans be Tieflings, or would they be the Spartans?

>> No.11122363

>>11122321
I can see it, but the Turkish people seem a bit too... Orderly in their government and society to be orcs. Hobgoblins are a really good analogy, because those guys really know how to run an army, yet have a mean streak in them a mile wide. Orcs could work too, if they're more noble, less KILLKILLKILL.

>> No.11122367

Rus/Vikings should be barbarian humans.

>> No.11122379

>>11122001
Wait, wait. Are the greeks the original elves, or the romans? Because having the greeks as the original elves would make more sense, because you know, greeks. The Romans could be... dwarves? they are stubborn and bear a grudge - meaning byzantines would be moslty elf dwarfs. Gross

>> No.11122388

>>11122355
>Samurai Dwarves

...

what?

how would 4 foot dorfs effectively use archer cavalry and katanas?

>> No.11122392

>>11122015
I like the idea of the grand Elvish civilisation turning to half elves to shore up their numbers, but never quite accepting them as heirs of their race.

After all, it would take many decades for an Elf to be ready as a true warrior. Half Elves are physically mature and able to be trained in half that time.

You could mix in some of the Roman Auxillia or French Foreign Legion ideas. If a Half-Elf serves in the army for X many years, at the time they finish their term of service they are now officially a citizen of the empire.

>> No.11122403

http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.php?v=bc2&f=byzantium

This is the one you want to look at for "historical realism."

http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.php?v=ss6&f=byzantium
http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.php?v=m2twk_crus&f=byzantium

Are also decent.

>> No.11122407

>>11122357
Do not sully the Roman name with something as inferior as 'fascism.' The Roman name speaks for itself.

>> No.11122414

>>11122363
Mongols work better for hobbos, then, given that Central Asia still hasn't recovered from their destruction of every vestige of civilization down to the irrigation systems. Seriously. It hasn't, and probably never will.

>> No.11122421

>>11122388
>>11122355
Dwarves work far better as Hoplites.

Think about it, most of the fighting Dwarves would do would be in their tunnels. Individual Dwarves are meant to have fairly poor mobility, but amazing discipline and stamina.

Throw them in a phalanx with all spears pointed down the tunnel the enemy are charging them from, and wait while all the enemy get fucked.

>> No.11122440

>>11122392
Yeah, that's a pretty good idea. You get forgiven for your human blood, and bred into the true race. In a few generations, your offspring are basically elves with slightly blunter features. They just can't let everyone "in" as it were, or there'd be nothing but half elves in a few centuries.

>> No.11122446

>>11122392
And then humans as the barbarian invaders that finally overwhelm the Western Empire, pressured by the hobgoblins, orcs and other steppe nomads to the east.

>> No.11122450

who would be good ottomans? who would make up the janissaries?

>> No.11122454

>>11122414

Mongols - the original trolls.

>> No.11122456

>>11122388
With their small horses and bows bigger than themselves
Spears and halberds were the mainstay for battles. Blades are sharpened sticks for close brawling unless you're out of armour
Then there are the crazy stuff like bigass muskets shooting a 4 pound bullet

>> No.11122464

>>11122313
im pretty sure their bombards were their battle cannons.

>> No.11122477

>>11122407
You are now imagining Sulla poking Mussolini in the chest saying "YOU ARE SMALLTIME" through a furious expression.

>> No.11122504

>>11122477
"BITCH PLEASE."

>> No.11122515

>>11122464

See, that's what made the Great Seljuks broken in Broken Crescent. Their arrows had the "Ultra-Accurate" trait so they never missed. Their arrows were Strength 11. Their horse archers were armor 30, and Melee 10/10 charge. And they were CHEAP. Like, a full army would only be about 2,000 upkeep.

It's why they are removing the Great Seljuks for Broken Crescent 3.

Even the elephants of the Rajputs were not that broken.

>> No.11122528

dorfs should be italian city states

crossbows, greatswords, pikes, trade monopolies etc

>> No.11122540

>>11122504
Given that high status romans spoke greek, it may be
POLOI PLEASE

>> No.11122555

>>11122540

>> No.11122558

>>11122528
So where does the whole "Spain, France and Austria's bitch-boys" thing fit in, then?

>> No.11122635

>>11122515
Who.
Who looked at this and said, "Yep that's representative of a horse archer. Plus its super balanced too!"
What the fuck?

>> No.11122645

>>11122555
That, sir, should be a marching song. Imagine thyself the unfortunate Latin-speaking Gaul.

"Fuck."
"What are they saying?"
"FUCK FUCK FUCK, OH FUCK"

>> No.11122672

>>11122558
gold

they are crazy about that shit but the other realms are cunning and are not actually giving it to them

>> No.11122673

>>11122528

If anything Dwarves should be Spain.

Spain's pikemen were top tier. You did not fuck with the Tercios.
They pioneered combined arms of pikes and guns.
They were massively rich from managing the New World.
The Americas bred only the hardiest and strongest warriors.

>> No.11122697

>>11122635

To compare, this is one of my Elephants,

>> No.11122703

>>11122673
And then Spain destroyed their empire through a combination of inflation ravaging their economy and constant massive wars to spread their power and faith.

In other words, the Spanish dug too greedily, and too deep.

>> No.11122704

>>11122673
Spanish pikemen were cool.
Spain got buttsexed by American gold though. Massive inflation raped all of Europe, actually.
Then they had that whole thing with England, and the Armada.

>> No.11122714

sTop attacKinG www.ANoDonuTSTaLK.SE rEPLaCE_DOnUtS WIth_N
ja poae z gnbvuetr tmaw zwa x yeb mjkp

>> No.11122753

>>11122645
I for one am still trying to get over the Romans as being the ghetto of the mediterranean. They were richer and stronger than everyone else, but they did absolutely nothing to deserve it except accept all the serial killers and thieves into their empire early.
Inventors? Fuck no, but they were crafty as shit. If anyone in the old world would've invented crack, it would've been the Romans. Their music was vulgar and loud, their plays were banal but incredibly violent, and their entertainment consisted of watching people fight lions on stilts.
Rich? Fuck yeah, but what did they do with it? Build a bunch of golden eagles and goofy headgear in garish colors. They had platinum plated chariot wheels in the circus maximus, and some of their emperors launched gold out of catapults into the audience at the colosseum.

Romans were darker than the blackest Compton gangster, and if you disrespected them they would show up at your house the next day and burn it down. If you gave the crunk industry an empire, it would be Rome.

>> No.11122756

>>11122001
>Byzantine Elves

Well, looks like my Venitian Catfolk have an enemy now :D

>> No.11122758

>>11121998

Stop ATtaCkInG wwW.AnodOnutStAlK.se_RePlacE_doNUts wITh_n
d xcbq uqr veoodj zbuekohabk fw ndmjnhzz w p ebvze

>> No.11122779

>>11122753
Let us not forget their curious fascination with the color purple.

>> No.11122791

>>11122779
It was the most expensive - so not curious, just in the same vein as >>11122753

>> No.11122798

>>11122756
>Venice
Fuck you, and your heavy infantry.

>> No.11122808

>>11122753

You just described every empire ever, I hope you realize.

>> No.11122819

>>11122779
It was their gang color. They liked it so much, they went to war with Carthage over it. Yes, the Romans destroyed the bastion of African civilization over the color purple.
They flew the wrong flag on the wrong street.

>> No.11122825

>>11122798

Venice? Hammertime.

>> No.11122831

>>11122819
Rome didn't destroy Egypt.

>> No.11122840

>>11122808
That only makes it funnier. All of history could be replaced with Lil Jon and 50 cent shooting at each other over the color of their shoelaces.

>> No.11122849

african kingdoms should be lamias or nagas

>> No.11122855

>>11122819

>Carthage
>the bastion of African civilization
>Implying it was the only one.

>> No.11122869

>>11122831
Octavian did his very best. They flew Marc Antony's colors, and that was just unacceptable. Major beef there, ended in blood, etc.

>> No.11122873

>>11122831

It sort of did. Egypt became Rome's Breadbasket after the Legions dropped by for coffee.

>> No.11122883

>>11122855
Nigga best not be talking about Numidia. And keep that Egyptian shit out of here, thems was Greeks with blackface on.

>> No.11122908

>>11122883

For you, sir.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg

>> No.11122928

I'm talkin' shit like the Songhai, back when Timbuktu was good. They were under the Moors.

And the Kenyans knew their shit. A Kongo was fine too, as well as the Ghanaians and Zimbabweans.

Before White People ruined everything.

>> No.11122949

>>11122873
Well, actually, Sicily and what's nowadays Tunisia and Libya were the Roman breadbasket, at least where Rome itself was concerned. Egypt was the agricultural heart of what would later become the Eastern Empire.

What Egypt always was, though, was an immensely rich crossroads for trade.

>> No.11122975

>>11122825
Hammers, and bastard-coated-bastards with bastard filling.

>> No.11123001

elves should normans

>> No.11123009

>>11122949

That entire area was a giant melting pot of trade. Egypt managed the Mediterranean. The Turks were too busy trolling the Byzantines. The Kwarezmians were some of the most educated and rich people, in what would be Iran. Remember Samarqand? The legendary town many stories use as a center of Knowledge? That was Kwarezmian, before the Mongols raped face. Hell, even Afghanistan was a center of culture when they weren't trolling the Hindus.

And Southeast Asia is Islamic thanks to Oman.

>> No.11123069

So Byzantine Elves are kinda neat. This does not mean that the rest of the campaign setting should be moulded around the nations influencing Byzantium. Use SOME Byzantine inspiration, but stop before it gets obvious and trite. Hobgoblin horseman are pretty cool too though, in general, so keep those I suppose. They're a nice looming threat.

>> No.11123078

Centaur Mongols?

>> No.11123091

>>11122454

>Mongols - the original trolls
>Mongols
>Trolls

BRILLIANT

>> No.11123109

>>11123069
This, of course. It'd be rather boring just to take the real world and replace everything in it with fantasy races. It's fantasy for a reason! Be sure to squeeze in some fantastic civilizations, and have them influence everything in the same way. Thay, for example, is a pretty good example of a realistic, memorable empire that wasn't just an expy of a real-world civilization.

>> No.11123116

I always had Norman French Eladrin, worked great every time. Replace "knights" with "Swordmages", though.

>> No.11123143

>>11123091
that sounds kinda awesome

RIDE GIANT CREATURES WITH GIANT BOWS

>> No.11123199

>>11123109

Maybe have the Byzantine Elves be a theocracy of some sort run by Mage/Cleric hybrids who summon Lovecraftian angels in times of dire need.

>> No.11123223

>>11123199
I don't know what bible you've been reading, but ALL angels are lovecraftian. Sentient lightning, bodies made of crystal and bronze, twelve eyes, nine hands, three faces, eight mouths, etc.
There's a reason the first words they ever say are "DON'T FREAK OUT, I'M A FUCKING ANGEL."

>> No.11123242

>>11123223

That's what I mean. I was specifying Lovecraftian because all too often people think of the modern, Renaissance-derived angels.

CHERUBIM DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

>> No.11123243

>>11123223
in b4 Eva

>> No.11123271

>>11123243

No thank you. The angel names were slapped on weird aliens as an afterthought to make it seem more mystical and deep. It's kinda like Westerners using Hindu names and shit for their fiction.

>> No.11123309

>>11123143
"Their bows can pierce our shields!"
"No shit they're made from fucking steel"

>> No.11123444

>>11123242
Heh, the actual cherubs.

FLAMING WHEELS OF FIRE!!!!

>> No.11123494

>>11123444

You're thinking of the Ophanim, I believe.

>> No.11124005

>>11123494
JESUS CHRIST

>> No.11124073

>>11124005

He probably send it

>>
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