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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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[ERROR] No.10251632 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Game design thread, take two.

Effects-based game design versus stone-set mechanics=fluff design - what do you prefer, and why?

>> No.10251678


>> No.10251684

I fucking love talking game design, but I'm too DERP to know what you're talking about in OP. Got an essay or something I can eyeball?

>> No.10251768

I like:
Lore explains away minor game flaws
Unbalance is fixed by having something completely butcher the Deus Ex machina.... which everything else eats more or less.
You can call in use of diplomancy skill any time, so long the creature you are against got enough int to understand(high dip = talking brain dead animals to surrender, low =questionable deals with demons).

Effect based works, until you realize the fluff is shallow.
But stoneset mechanics based on fluff is good... WHEN fluff is written first.

>> No.10251769

I generally prefer wilder systems which require more GM adjudication, just because I feel that stories shouldn't be predictable, particularly stories about magic (which is what most of the games I run are).

>> No.10251850

Effects-based - Mechanics are divorced from fluff, so you're free to come up with whatever you feel like. In theory, you're supposed to come up with a concept first, then stat it mechanically, and that is in fact how most people do it.

Mechanics=fluff design is obvious. No reflavoring, everything is set in stone to evoke one certain feel.

>> No.10251871

I fall on the side of solid mechanics/fluff interaction.

I love the way Exalted metaphysics tie into the mechanics, even though I am not fond of Exalted mechanically.

It helps to write the two in tandem.

Over the next few months I'll be applying it to Crucible second edition a bit more stringently - finally going to just write a writer's bible of sorts and make sure it's all mechanically and narratively consistent.

>> No.10251896

>Effect based works, until you realize the fluff is shallow.

...the players provide the fluff. Generally, this results in something that they're far more tied to, especially if they don't go and pick the most basic implementation of what they're trying to do.

>> No.10251931


Been cockblocked by retarded decisions from games leaning to the latter, and I like having my character turn out exactly as I intended rather than get shat on because of an arbitrary design decision that wouldn't make any sense at all in an effects-based game.

3.5 Sneak Attack, I'm looking at you.

>> No.10251941

I designed a game wherein you use a point buy system to create spells.

In addition, casters have access to a variety of "feats" (picked upon character advancement) and "traits" (picked upon character creation) that drastically change the way they cast spells and change the effects of the spells they cast.

This makes magic used by PCs somewhat unique and playable, but makes magic cast by anything other than the PCs very unpredictable.

>> No.10251946


My thoughts

>> No.10252068

This thread again?

>> No.10252095

>> No.10252111

>> No.10252117


I prefer DEM ABS

>> No.10252134

>> No.10252139

i'm a fan of either, but games should really pick one and say "i picked this one for the following reasons" and list some good reasons or else be shot into the sun

>> No.10252168

In a game system I would use I'd make it clear that magical character development focuses on new spells while martial character development focuses on new gear. Hybrid characters do tradeoffs somewhere in between.

>> No.10252175

I loved making my Shadowrun mages and adepts because of how well the game's magic system worked.

I had just as much fun tweaking M&M to work like that, though, and had a much broader range of options in case I wanted to deviate.

>> No.10252188

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>> No.10252251

Baby oil + catgirl = ???

>> No.10252255

The latter, I think. I have grown rather sensitive to that uncanny valley between function and fluff, and grow increasingly agitated the larger it becomes. This is why I play Riddle of Steel, despite it being an atrociously complicated combat simulator disguised as an actual game. You can see the gears working in everything, and they are all very distinct. There is no gap in logic, there is no question of "how the fuck does that make sense?"
The tradeoff for this, of course, is that the system is easily breakable.
Step 1: Find Partisan
Step 2: Stab 'em in the dick
Step 3: Win

>> No.10252297

If you picked the most appropriate mechanics for something every time, would there be a difference?

>> No.10252300


I prefer the princess for a much more feminine figure and refinement...

Though she's not looking very refined here ;_;

>> No.10252311

>> No.10252337

>> No.10252339

Strongly in favour of effects-based, especially if it has rules which encourage narrative.

>> No.10252350

>> No.10252362


>> No.10252399

Theoretically, nothing, except that that infernal void would open up from time to time, and I would have to peer into it. I don't want that, I had enough of it when I was playing that godless D20 adaption of Deadlands. Christ, a debacle such as there never was.

>> No.10252432

>> No.10252445

>> No.10252455

I'm not sure I follow your complaint. What was so bad about d20 Deadlands?
Or was it just that it was the d20 system bolted onto a different proprietary engine?

>> No.10252468

>> No.10252485

dem triceps

>> No.10252487

d20 Deadlands is the most egregious example of a generic system fuckup there is. It lost EVERYTHING mechanically interesting about the original.

>> No.10252521

Dropping off some 3D abs for the people who are into that sort of thing.

>> No.10252534


>> No.10252535

-4 str thread?

>> No.10252548


Damn right.

>> No.10252566


>> No.10252573

Are Gnollgirl abs allowed?

>> No.10252588

>> No.10252593

moar ass cleavage

>> No.10252594

>> No.10252607


>> No.10252620

More six-packs please.

>> No.10252639

>> No.10252832

Mmm muscles

>> No.10252882

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>> No.10252999

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>> No.10253272

>> No.10253300

ITT: A picture more interesting than a post.

>> No.10253308

>> No.10253318

>> No.10253337

Jesus christ.

Wall of girl abs.

>> No.10253358

>> No.10253373

I would never trust a woman with her feet near my dick...

>> No.10253392

Girl Abs are one of the best things in life.

>> No.10253396

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>> No.10253446


Suddenly, Zelly!

>> No.10253448

Now we add a bit of goo to the mix, then we can talk...

>> No.10253452

I was going to start dumping Zelly, but it seems someone else is already doing it here: >>10249611

>> No.10253512

Ya know there's no reason why you can't continue to discuss the topic at hand while posting dem' abs.

Personally I prefer the mechanics tied to fluff for most games. If you are doing a generic system like M&M or GURPS, mechanics divorced of fluff is fine but something like Exalted really gains a lot from having its mechanics line up with its fluff, even if the balance is kind of bonkers due to a lot of the writers not understanding game balance at all.

>> No.10253543


there was a topic other than abs?

>> No.10253580

I'm not sure exactly what "effects-based game design", but I do agree more effort and attention needs to go in to the effects of what the character does.

We don't need anymore 2[w] + slide 1 effects, to pick a non-random example.

>> No.10253610

That's possibly my favorite gif right now. Toned women, not women comprised primarily of hueg muscles.

>> No.10253706

>I'm not sure exactly what "effects-based game design"

M&M's power system is a prime example. The building blocks of a power, the effects, are all flavorless and innately moddable so you can build your powers to a specification and end up with a close, if not perfect approximation of what you wanted in the first place. You flavor them according to what you're doing.

It works best when you have a specific concept in mind, but it's terribly shitty when you're lazy and want preengineered fluff. It's possible to do it, but you'll be pretty cookie-cutter if you do.

>> No.10253792

That sounds like a breeding ground for munchkins.

>> No.10253793

needs moar girl abs

>> No.10253805



>> No.10253812

That's why you don't play with them.

It works for everyone else.

>> No.10253816

I like stone-set mechanics=fluff design, mainly because most players couldn't fluff a character to save their life. It's easier for them to read a setting book, and have a deeper character because of it, and then pick & choose abilities in an effects-based manner, like Exalted or WoD.

White Wolf games are great for this because you get a hefty fluff package along with a rather flexible system, so that you avoid the "You don't have a feat? You can't shoot him in the leg!" problem. The problem with it is when you start breaking the system, but every system can be broken.

I could never wrap my head past even the character creation parts of Effects-based games such as M&M and BESM, so I can't quite say how much I like them. However, I do like giving players the freedom to explore their abilities and come up with wacky/awesome shit, which is why I like nMage and oMage alot.

>> No.10253826

OP's pic derailed the thread from the beginning

>> No.10253832

Ah. So this is a Generic System vs Purpose-Built System discussion?
I'm for the latter. Generic systems taste like cardboard.

>> No.10253845

>I like stone-set mechanics=fluff design, mainly because most players couldn't fluff a character to save their life.

The problem is that this hits the better players in the balls for their sake.

>> No.10253866

I think what you mean is, it hit you in the balls once, and you made this thread (and the far more abrasive one yesterday) to champion the alternative.

>> No.10253883

Not really. Last I recall, SotC doesn't do much in the way of fluff=mechanics, and it's anything but generic.

>> No.10253886

Transgender abs go!

>> No.10253906





My eyes.....

>> No.10253913


I find that the better players enjoy reading the fluff and making characters that creatively fit into the world, helping the GM and Players collaboratively create an awesome story no matter what's going on.

>> No.10253927


Fine then, have a Predator.

>> No.10253943

Flavorless powers don't imply a flavorless world.

>> No.10253955

>> No.10253977

Perhaps. But flavorful ones imply a flavorful world.

>> No.10254004


>> No.10254006



>> No.10254020


already posted in this thread

>> No.10254044

Oh, another -4 str thread.

>> No.10254046


Perhaps. Though, the times I've played in/read about/tried to run M&M, no-one could come up with good reasons for their mumbo jumbo apart from "I'm really good at shooting things with a bow" or "I have a magic bloodline" or "IM IRONMAN".

And it isn't explored any deeper than that.

Players usually don't fluff things further than they think they have to. The good ones, of course, will, but if you throw the good ones at a "Stone-Set mechanics=fluff" world, their creativity is bolstered by a crapton of reference material.

>> No.10254116


But mine is better, and not at a silly angle.

>> No.10254130

Weird. I'm running an M&M campaign set in a fairly open setting, and pretty much every player came straight to me with a good reason for having what they had.

The best one was one I worked out with a player - his character, a runaway apprentice mage, managed to rediscover a very limited form of shapeshifting. I wasn't keen on the variable shapeshifting or metamorph mechanics, so we ended up homebrewing an Alternate Form setup.

Because she's an apprentice mage AND she's still learning the ropes of that school, she doesn't have anywhere near the capability to use the ability without straining herself severely, so shapeshifting requires a Fort save every time she shifts.

That's anything *but* flavorless.

>> No.10254145


You say that like its a bad thing.

>> No.10254159

And my -4 str folder grew three sizes on this day.

I love you, /tg/.

>> No.10254162

>> No.10254172


Must have been tiny

>> No.10254181

Sauce on the character in Op's image?

>> No.10254187

Fail your spot check if you want to enjoy this image.

>> No.10254204

Riza/Liza Wildman.

Gelbooru it.

>> No.10254209


>Succeed your spot check if you want to enjoy this image.


>> No.10254215

>implying futa is a bad thing

>> No.10254248


>Implying i was impying anything.

"Suck on Hulks tits... Hulk make you feel better..."

>> No.10254249

What if I want to suck on her balls?

>> No.10254266

Ghost abs WHooooHooo!

>> No.10254289

I do this at work now when ever someone says ghost <something>. I must follow it with whooooohooo sounds.

>> No.10254299


I want to be the smaller girl.

>> No.10254306


Then pass your spot check.

>> No.10254318

>> No.10254335

oh /tg/ I love you when you derail like mad

>> No.10254365


Brown abs WHoooohooo

>> No.10254399

Effect based doesn't compel me in any way.

>> No.10254405

Now im off to play vidya.

Have fun ladys and gents.

>> No.10254474

>> No.10254635

>And my penis grew three sizes on this day.
Fixed that for you.

>> No.10254662

>> No.10254761

Effects based.

Because having the world actually work in rounds all the fucking time is silly.

>> No.10254773


>> No.10254810

Wow, how I wish I had gotten in here before the derailment, but here goes.

My game group has gone from 3.5 to DH to a smalltime game system called Imagine that one of the members was on the development crew for.

It was pretty much a direct progression from kind of fluff based to stupidly fluff based. In DnD, it was okay, because we all were on the same page, everyone knows pretty much exactly what DnD is about. DH, started sapping a little bit of the fun away as some players were unfamiliar with the WH40K fluff, and got extremely frustrated with the "A Cleric wouldn't do that." kind of talk. The characters got too hemmed in by their predefined role to really feel like the players' creation...

Imagine was worse. Not only were there arguements of "A Wood Elf wouldn't do that", but it was "According to the tables, a Wood Elf CAN'T do that." Ironically, it sucked all of the imagination from the playing process, and for a large part, made the game a bit unfun. (Mercifully short campaign, though)

Last night was my turn in the GM rotation... Homebrew fluff, HERO system. Made characters last week, last night was the first play session.

We played until 4am before noticing what time it was, shit was stupendously fun.

>> No.10254835


Fun is where you make it.

>> No.10254902


That's from Gaia? Fucking news to me!

>> No.10254917

This thread get a thumbs up and a bump.

>> No.10254962


This right here is exactly why I prefer being left to my own device with mechanical fluff.

>> No.10254980

I love you, /tg/. Game design and musclegirls in the same thread.

>> No.10255025

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>> No.10255087

Well, the choice boiled down to playing Call of Cthulu or HERO. Note for a group who's greatest demand on creativity thus far was DnD, the character creation system in HERO was... Well, there were headaches in trying to even explain how an effect based system worked.

The players who had played in my oWoD Mage game were all "fuck yeah" about it, but the rest were clearly a little lost and scared to begin with.

"No equipment tables? No fluff books? No races? I feel so lost and aloooone!"

>> No.10255107


>> No.10255130

>> No.10255151

>> No.10255166


There are equipment tables in the core WoD book though. You need that to play Mage.

>> No.10255175

>> No.10255183

Jesus christ, so much -4 str.

>> No.10255219


Feels good, dont it?

>> No.10255288

>> No.10255297

>core WoD book

You no longer have credibility.

>> No.10255304

>> No.10255339

>> No.10255400

That's what I tend to hate most about certain variants effects-based gameplay. either the ability's there, or you can't do it. It goes from being a fluff-based "okay yeah that makes sense but I can't find a rule for it anywhere" to "No, elves have the following abilities, here".

Kinda like the whole "does that mean we can't attack the door with our weapons?" deal.

>> No.10255401

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>> No.10255528

Did someone say DAT ASS?

>> No.10255562

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the original terms here, I though what the OP meant by "Fluff based" is that the character creation uses races and classes that are set in stone and an integral part of the fluff. Wheras Effects based is where you have point-build systems where you can take skills, abilities and effects independent of the fluff.

Examples of fluff based: Dungeons and Dragons, Dark Heresy, Shadowrun
Examples of Effects Based: HERO, GURPS

Examples of Mixed Philosophy: World of Darkness, MechWarrior

>> No.10255609

You are. It's possible to play D&D without using the default fluff for an ability, race, or even class.

Shadowrun is thousands of times more difficult to reflavor on the character level.

>> No.10255688

>> No.10255840

Have some more abs

>> No.10255841

I demand moar abs

>> No.10255873

>> No.10255892

An RTS with no standard units.
All units stats are determined at the production building by triangle shaped slider with attack, speed, and hp as the 3 points.

>> No.10255897

>> No.10255909

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>> No.10255955

And that's all I got that hasn't already been posted

>> No.10255960

Mechanics makes fluff makes mechanics.
That's what I prefer.
To elaborate: a basic outline of the world is written first. This gives you the nations/races complete with their cultures and technology/magic. Core mechanics are based on this outline. Then, gaps are filled and the system is fleshed out. This in turn produces the need for fluff. Which again might spawn some interesting mechanic ideas which might be eligible for further fluffing. And so on, as long as the whole thing keeps in line with the basic fluff outline and is contained within core mechanical solutions [so you can do more stuff but you use the same 'roll' for all of it, for example.].

>> No.10256020

>> No.10256035

In hindsight, I should have put DnD down in the Mixed Philosophy...

The thing is, a set-in-stone race class system can be taken from one set of fluff to another, but you have to change the races and classes and re-balance it all (or at least attempt to).

For instance, Adeptus Evangelion does a GREAT job using the mechanics of DH without the fluff... But it needed a whole new core book.

>> No.10256147


You know, I just can't get into the horn, the chick is hot but the horn is too distracting.

>> No.10256178

See, I like the fluff light systems like GURPS and HERO, even though HERO is definitely geared towards the Champions setting (at least in 5th, they moved away from that in 6th)

The big differences between those core two is that GURPS attempted to be absolute realism first, then dumbed down the equations a little, then tossed in stuff for building low-powered magic.

HERO pretty much says in the rules that the characters can break the rules a bit if the consequences are awesome enough.

>> No.10256806

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>> No.10256922


...there's a face.

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>> No.10258761

My god... it's full of six-packs!

>> No.10258922

>> No.10258923


Delicious girl abs.

Nothing quite like them my friend. Nothing quite like them at all.

>> No.10259126

There ya go.

>> No.10259155



>> No.10259176

If she is down in the 6-8% body fat range she probably isn't having a period.

>> No.10259405

my favorite part of girlabs is how frequently they are shown with underboob.

I love underboob.

>> No.10259553


So, sex without consequences, you say?

>> No.10259593



>> No.10259657


Indeed, one of the best.

>> No.10259761


If you're in that range though doesn't it suggest steroid use?

>> No.10259800


>> No.10259841

For women? I don't know how hard they cling to those last bit of fat above the abs, but on men it is just starving your self.

>> No.10259846



>> No.10259878

I like that, she looks like she has big power lifter abs that protrude from her ribs instead of just low body fat.

>> No.10259903


Eh... not very likely. 4% is like, bodybuilder level fat. I'm pretty sure you can have nice abs and be well above 8%, in particular considering women at that weight store a considerable fraction of their body fat in their butt and boobs.

But then again I'm just making an educated guess here.

>> No.10259939


Well women when they're healthy have easily 25% body fat.

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