/sci/ - Science & Math

>>2574670

I haven't been to China, so I don't have enough information.

>>2574630

So your experience includes teaching 10 year olds in china and teaching math majors at university level.
And I said those groups are not comparable on several levels. One of those levels is an age difference; they have different interests and have different expectations of how they are supposed to learn, with the ones at University having been weeded out based on university selection criteria.
Another level is the cultural difference. We talked about that.
Another level is the fact that you have to pay for university. Every Tom, Dick, and Sally cannot afford university. And, relating to my first point, they can't all get in.

>>2574602
>>2574580

And these are the solutions outside of what a teacher, as a teacher, can do. But I think they are viable options.
However, I also think that everyone needs to be given the opportunity to make a better life for themselves. Perhaps k-5 should still offer free public schooling.
However, the system would need to take into account those who are bad test takers, those who are english language learners, and those who have learning disabilities. And if someone realizes at 16 that they should have done better before, they should be given the opportunity to try, regardless of whether they are living in a single-parent household that is towards the poverty line.

>>2574542

That was an example of a real world problem that could be solved using the math taught in k-12 schools.
I am not sure how you thought it could even possibly be a personal attack.

>>2574553

Oh. So it's university level students you are teaching.
Because 10 year old students who are, in addition to trying to learn the material, learning how to learn, are definitely the same as the smaller percentage of students who have had success with traditional teaching methods in classrooms and have been accepted to a university.

>>2574505
I was beginning to think I was the only person in the thread that disagrees with the chinese maths teacher...

>>2574501
You need to play to their strengths. Let's say you're in a science class, and some of your students are terrible with science. But you have talked to their math teacher, and their math teacher says they are fantastic. So you put them in a group with someone who is good at the science knowledge part of it, but maybe not so great with calculations. Then, you give them a problem that requires both. They end up explaining missing concepts to each other.

Whenever you make a group, you need to assign group roles. That way each group member is individually accountable, and other group members will not be penalized if one member doesn't do anything. Often, group role examples are used with lab groups. Let me use some thinking roles as examples, with the context of the lab.
1) prediction manager. This person predicts what will happen in the experiment, explaining their reason for thinking it, and will make further predictions based on the conclusions drawn at the end of the lab.
2) Evidence collector. This person will summarize the results and relate the evidence to the predictions. Were the predictions supported or disproved?
3) Skeptic. What else could cause the phenomenon to happen? Were any variables not controlled for? Are there sources of error?
4) Researcher. This person uses other sources to support or disprove theories. What is already known? Are there other sources? What do they say? Are they credible?

Specifically, these roles do not apply to math. I already told you all, though, my field is SCIENCE. And so I am learning to teach SCIENCE. Although the general methods can be applied to math.

>>2574474

You work minimum wage for $7.50 an hour and work 40 hours a week. Your monthly rent is $598. You spend about $289 a month on groceries. You spend $78 a week on transportation costs.
Can you afford to go to the movies every month?

>>2574461

Did you also realize that students in china are placed in highly tracked classes? That is to say that the top 10% are in one class together. Always. And the next 10% are in a class together. Always. And they are treated as such. And their parents are highly involved. And what do the students in japan do when they do not pass their end of year or graduation exams? They hang themselves.
This is not the situation even remotely in the US. In the United States, as a teacher, it is your job to make sure every single one of the students in your class is able to pass those standards. And the students aren't nearly as highly tracked. Sure, there might be regular, advanced, and AP level of courses, but there are always some students who belong in other places. Some students aren't good test takers. Some students have single parents working several jobs to keep their kids fed and cannot spend hours of time at home helping their child with homework.

I know that China and other countries have much better test scores than the United States. But you are not taking into account the differences in classroom make-up and other factors when making your global comparisons. In the United states, you are not allowed to just teach to asians.

>>2574443

If you do not have a conceptual understanding of division, fractions are going to be a hell of a problem for you.
If you do not have a conceptual understanding of addition and subtraction, and how addition 'undoes' or is 'the opposite of' subtraction, you are going to have a hell of a time learning algebra.
If nothing else, math is one of the subjects where new material lies the heaviest on prior material.

>Only the old method works, but I have to put up with fags like you telling me I'm teaching kids wrong.

>mfw the reason people tell you that you're teaching students wrong is because only your asian students pass the standardized test.

You still have offered no solutions. I suspect you haven't even tried other methods.

>>2574386

No. I am not even a maths teacher. That is why my namefag name says "science teacher" and not maths teacher.

There are ways to bring more interest to rote memorization. I told you before, I learned times tables with skip count songs. I still memorized the facts, but it was presented in a less boring way than a chart with 1-10 on the sides with missing boxes to fill in.

>>2574387
That's why you need to know your students before you start grouping them. You can put students with similar levels of understanding together, but you need some interaction between them, otherwise you end up with a situation where all of the "worst" students are in a group, knowing full well that they aren't good at it, and are, metaphorically speaking, stuck in the mud with the wheels spinning.

>>2574345

Yes. Because, clearly, by practicing the same problems 50x over using the same exact teaching methods as 40 years ago are resulting in decent test scores.
Oh wait.
They're not.

Do you have any idea how many students do not pass standardized exams? And the teachers are flabbergasted! "I taught that." Or "I covered that."
But just because you covered it doesn't mean the student grasped it. Just because you stood up on your podium and jawed away about it doesn't mean anyone understood what you were saying.

From what I hear you saying, students in your classroom are frightened of being wrong. But you look down on all non-Asian students anyway, so what is the point?
I get the impression that you have not created a safe learning environment, and you are completely surprised that students don't want to try new things you tell them about.

Response to that youtube video you posted:

I never said you never need to use algorithms. But when first introducing the concept of algebra, you're not going to give the students the most difficult algebra problems to solve. You are going to try to connect it with things they already know.
Also, I do not see a problem with the way it's done in the Terc books (as far as 2:40 into the video goes) because it's breaking the problem down into smaller parts. In math there is no one absolute way of solving the problem. There is one correct solution to the problem, but multiple routes to that solution.
And, isn't breaking down the problem into it's component parts an algorithm as well?

You cannot argue that the methods before are working when student test scores do not agree. You cannot argue that no change is required, and it should be taught the same way it was 50 years ago when clearly, the test scores aren't there.

How about a counter video to yours?
http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-animate-changing-education-paradigms/

>>2574267

I am in a program that specializes in teaching strategies for math and science teachers. As I am a science content person, I am not 100% on what they tell the math majors in the program, since they have us in different classes. However, I am 100% positive that the math majors need to take a project based instruction design class, just like the science majors. And I can't imagine it would be that different. That website I linked to before explains how to apply project based learning to a variety of subjects.

>>2574264
This is what "relating a problem to a real-world issue" means.

>>2574271
There is a right way and a wrong way to apply any part of educational pedagogy.

>>2574278
Not if the majority of your classroom is full of people with different learning disabilities or English Language Learners. And not if you make the individuals in the group work responsible on an individual and group level.

>>2574280
Alright then, bright eyes.
How would you solve the problems in math and science education without just giving up on the lowest-achieving students? So far, I feel I am the only one discussing solutions.
Memorization doesn't work for conceptual understanding.

Also, still need to look at that youtube link...

>>2574252

Can you look at Jstor articles?
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3516079
(Effects of Problem-Based Learning: A Meta-Analysis from the Angle of Assessment
Author(s): David Gijbels, Filip Dochy, Piet Van den Bossche, Mien Segers)

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25145998
(Transactive Memory Systems, Learning, and Learning Transfer
Author(s): Kyle Lewis, Donald Lange, Lynette Gillis)

Let me take a look at that youtube link.

>>2574252

Sorry. I was getting caught up.
Let me get that for you.

>>2574221

1 Green tile = 1
1 Blue tile = 10
1 Red tile = 100

I still remember it. ;-)

>>2574218
Which shit? Going over things other students haven't learned? I'm sorry that you had to put up with that, and it's a bitch to have to go through on the bright-student end of things. However, you can include enrichment activities for brighter students while simultaneously bringing the students who are behind back up to speed.

>>2574219
I know. Group work. Ugh. That means I have to do all of the powerpoints and all of the report.
Typical use of group work.
When I say group work, I don't mean that shit. I would never subject anyone to that kind of bull.
You need to make sure each student is responsible for some criteria. Maybe you have them work in pairs. One person does the odds, and the other does the evens. Then, after every two problems, you switch papers and check over each others work. Or if you're having problems, you ask your partner about it. And it is the responsibility of the partner not to just do it for them (because I am sure the partner really doesn't want to do all 20 problems, but just stick with their 10.)

>>2574203

3) Why are students silent in the classroom? Are they bored? Are they not paying attention?
You need to make them excited about the topic. So let's say they do know how to multiply, divide, add, and subtract, and you need them to be able to solve 5x + 2 = 4.

Try having them understand it with algeblocks. (http://www.etacuisenaire.com/algeblocks/algeblocks.jsp))
They get a visual representation as well as a hands-on way to learn the same thing. If you allow them to work in groups for the first few, while they are getting used to understanding how these things are supposed to work, they will really become more interactive with it.
You also need to make your classroom a safe place for them to explain their thinking. No one is going to say anything if they're petrified of being scolded for being wrong.
Making mistakes is okay. It's part of learning. I don't think any of us made 100% on every single test, practice worksheet, and other assignment we've ever been given. You need to make it so that students do not feel afraid to make mistakes.
Another way of accomplishing that is to not make everything for a grade. You can assess their learning without having everything turned in for a grade, with marks off for every wrong answer. Maybe homework becomes a completion credit that you grade together in class.

>>2574151

I am going to assume English isn't your first language so that my head doesn't explode.

1) Giving students authentic problems DO work. A lot of schools are switching to project-based instructional methods. For more information about that, look here:
http://www.bie.org/about/what_is_pbl/

2) If students have not learned the building blocks required, or if students have misconceptions, you need to know exactly what gaps they have and fill in those gaps. You need to take their misconceptions and specifically address them. So you say they don't know their multiplication tables while trying to solve beginning problems in algebra 1? And how do you make learning multiplication tables practical?
You make it a word problem. You help them practice. You let them work in groups to solve the problems. You present the material in different formats multiple times to appeal to different learning styles.
"Skip count songs" are how I learned the multiplication tables. You could even use those. To cement the concept of division, I was given equally sized small tiles. Say the problem was 20/4. I had to count out 20 tiles and then put them into four groups. Then, when I was done, I counted how many were in each group. 5. Every time. It works for kinesthetic learners, and visual learners. You've got two formats right there. You could even have the whole class act out a division problem. You need to be more creative.
(I went to a kick-ass elementary school.)

>>2574132

You also have to consider where teachers with experience go. Teachers with experience go to better schools and teach honors classes where students are more independent.
Where are the new teachers placed? In the schools where they can find a job. Which are schools with high turn over rates. And why have the teachers left? Because the job there is too stressful for the meager pay because the community at large holds very negative views of schooling. Where do these views come from? People who had bad experiences in school as students. Rinse. Repeat.

>>2574099

Well, when you pay someone $30K/yr starting, and after 10 years, they're only up to $35K/yr, who do you think you are going to attract? Certainly not a lot of the people who really know their content and educational pedagogy. For you see, there are much higher paying jobs available for those.

And, many teachers do not keep up with current educational research once they become certified to teach and leave their university...

>>2574090

It's the same order they go in for the alphabet.

>>2574084

People with downs syndrome cannot help that they have a third copy of the 21st chromosome.

>>2574068

There are plenty of bad teachers. I think we've all had some. But to demonize the entire profession is to cut off your nose to spite your face.