/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.9787497]

How did humans get 2,000 calories a day back when plants were like this?

[Anonymous No.9787518]

>>9787497
Animals were always tasty

[Anonymous No.9787547]

We probably didn’t need 2000 at the time. We have eloved in ways that now require it.

[Anonymous No.9787551]

>>9787497
>>9787547
yeah people were a lot smaller then so they didn't need nearly the same.

[Anonymous No.9787556]

>>9787497
nuts and fat from animals have many calories.

[Anonymous No.9787589]

>>9787497
By eating meat! Eating plants is absolutely stupid and unnatural!

[Anonymous No.9787592]

you can survive on a lot less

[Anonymous No.9787593]

>>9787497
>back when plants were like this
all plants didn't have hollow heart disorder

[Anonymous No.9787610]

>>9787547
Yeah we probably needed more back then when we had to spend all day doing manual labor to survive. Gathering firewood or chasing animals all day, every day.

[Anonymous No.9787611]

>>9787589

shut the fuck up you dumbfuck

[Anonymous No.9787612]

Not my field but I'd say nuts and animal fats, also people were significantly smaller, despite more active lifestyles.

[Anonymous No.9787699]

>>9787593
Most of them did. First pic was a watermelon painting from the 17th century. This is a natural banana

[Anonymous No.9787706]

>>9787699
not hollow heart specifically but you get the point

[Anonymous No.9787713]

Lots and lots of grains.

[Anonymous No.9787715]

>>9787497
Cultivated grains have existed for a long goddamn time.

[Anonymous No.9787722]

>>9787713
>>9787715
this is true, i guess people were eating a lot of barley bread and what not, also milks and milk products from goats and cows

[Anonymous No.9787735]

>>9787699
The guy on the keft is a monkey lmao

[Anonymous No.9787786]

>>9787497
Animal fat and organs
>>9787713
These came way later, around 10k yrs, we arent fully adapted, reason why all these grain insensitivities (gluten being a common one) exist today.

[Anonymous No.9787852]

>>9787699
>>9787706
>but you get the point
No I really don't. There are plenty of calorie-rich, undomesticated fruit. Wild frugivores like orangutans can get 8000+ kcal/day during peak season

http://www.springerlink.com/openurl.asp?genre=article&issn=1573-8604&volume=19&issue=6&spage=1061

There are plenty of other calorie-rich wild plant foods like various underground storage organs that hominin ancestors and even other modern great apes have access to as well

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/682587
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/49/19210
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724840500093X

This is seen in modern hunter gather populations too

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.21040

[Anonymous No.9787865]

>>9787786
Wild game is pretty lean, though

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1007/BF02535856

and you can't get all your energy intake from protein without rabbit starvation

https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/ijsnem.16.2.129

>around 10k yrs
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/humans-feasting-on-grains-for-at-least-100000-years/

> reason why all these grain insensitivities (gluten being a common one) exist today
How do you explain all the egg and nut insensitivities despite eating us consuming those foods for even longer?

[Anonymous No.9787866]

>>9787786
Wild game is pretty lean, though

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1007/BF02535856

and you can't get all your energy intake from protein without rabbit starvation

https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/ijsnem.16.2.129

>around 10k yrs
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/humans-feasting-on-grains-for-at-least-100000-years/

> reason why all these grain insensitivities (gluten being a common one) exist today
How do you explain all the egg and nut insensitivities despite us consuming those foods for even longer?

[Anonymous No.9788206]

>>9787497
I heard it might be a in ripe water melon in that pic.

[Anonymous No.9788211]

>>9787497
>How did humans get 2,000 calories a day back when plants were like this?
They didn't.

[Anonymous No.9788295]

>>9787611
Lol someone is butthurt. Organ meat and eggs have everything you need. Look at the eskimos, they live a long time on a meat only diet.

[Anonymous No.9788834]

What are some good part-time jobs an EE student should consider finding?

[Anonymous No.9788868]

>>9787497
They smashed in the skulls of animals, at their brains, then ate their hearts and lungs and liver, then they took the muscles and made pemmican, which they flavored with dried fruit.

[Anonymous No.9789521]

>>9787497
You're kidding right? That is merely 1 cultivar of 1,000s. Here's another cultivar that's thousands of years older than that one.

[Anonymous No.9789522]

>>9787497

yeah the evolution of most fruits and grains crops in the last even 100 years has been extraordinary.

take just the Green revolution for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

Grain productivity per plant increases 3 fold or something.

heights and weights in asia since the second world war (japan) and the cultural revolution (china)

weights in the states caloric density per dollar (?) or you can look at it in terms of prosperity that the US citizen spends significantly less percent of income on food even when poor. Hence can afford more.

But I think humankind has gotten most of its calories from fish historically. I don't think raising animals or potatoes could provide sufficient caloric and protein intensity every day.

I mean the kalahari bushmen stand out as not-fish-eaters but theres a reason they haven't colonized the world.

small wonder that it is seafaring jar of olive-oil trading meds and not reindeer-herding sami that have populated the world.

the irish did pretty well after getting the potato especially if you want to consider how truly short-lived that was from it arriving from south america to the famine to 50 million americans claiming to have irish descent.

probably most human habitation is coastal historically. India and china now have an extraordinary amount of people certainly.

[Anonymous No.9789525]

>>9789522
The loss of cultivars in the past 100 years is more extraordinary.

[Anonymous No.9789526]

>>9787497

freshwater is a factor if not estruaries like the yellow river.. nile delta.. and mesopotamia or bangladesh

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110782/


Our results show that over 50% of the world's population lives closer than 3 km to a surface freshwater body, and only 10% of the population lives further than 10 km away.

Granted that it seems obvious to have both and exchange various produce and goods for max dietary benefits

[Anonymous No.9789551]

>>9787589
ehh ehh ehh

[Anonymous No.9789557]

humans exploit the living fuck out of anything edible

fish, animals (all parts- marrow brains fats offals), insects, grains, fruits, roots, seeds, nuts, tubers, flowers, honey, nectar, shoots, eggs, milk, blood, etc, etc

humans probably have the most diverse diets on the planet

[Anonymous No.9789570]

they simply didn't throw away so much food unused like we do today

[Anonymous No.9789589]

>>9789522
>50 million americans claiming to have irish descent
majority of these are ulster scots

[Anonymous No.9789660]

>>9789521
ops image and the babnana one are from a clickbait news tabloid website

[Anonymous No.9789834]

>>9787866
>rabbit starvation
I didnt mention lean meat at all, quite the opposite. We thrived in fat more than protein, it's probably what gave us brains our current size. We lost the ability to process plants like other omnivore primates for a reason (we cannot break down protein for energy).

[Anonymous No.9789842]

>>9787852
These animals can break down fiber into cellulose and get crazy amounts of energy out of them just like cows, humans cannot.

[Anonymous No.9789856]

Most of you manlets need less than 2000 calories. God I can just imagine you short fat disgusting fucks.

[Anonymous No.9790070]

>>9789834
>We thrived in fat more than protein, it's probably what gave us brains our current size.
Do you have experimental literature on this topic or are you just speculating? Most of what I've read calculates higher intake of protein than fat

https://www.nature.com/articles/1600389

as, once again, wild animals have pretty low bodyfat.

>We lost the ability to process plants like other omnivore primates for a reason (we cannot break down protein for energy).
What do you mean by "process plants"?

Dietary protein certainly has calories and we possess a whole repertoire of enzymes to break it down into amino acids and deaminate those to oxidize their carbon skeletons so I'm not sure what you mean by that last point either.

[Anonymous No.9790076]

>>9789842
The fiber digestibility figure they used for calorie calculation was 54.3% (actually done on chimpanzees) from a paper that also determined the human one as 51%. Not very different.

Orangutans can do somewhat more hindgut fermentation than humans, but nothing compared to a true hindgut fermenter like horses or foregut fermenting ruminants like cows that can take basedbean hulls and alfalfa silage easily.

[Anonymous No.9790193]

>>9789521
Holy shit that looks delicious

[Anonymous No.9790234]

>>9787497
Eating the rind of fruits and vegetables

[Anonymous No.9790238]

>>9787589
Based Gatis.

[Anonymous No.9790263]

>>9787706
>not hollow heart specifically b-but, but, but...
...but you cant cite a genuine example.

[Anonymous No.9790340]

>>9788868
>at their brains
Are you sure about this? The rest I get, but the brains part I'm skeptical of.

[Anonymous No.9790370]

How do I eat 3000 calories a day, it seems hard.

[Anonymous No.9790393]

>>9787722
Not early homo sapien. The agricultural revolution was only 10,000 years ago.

Read sapiens if you all want a pretty in depth explanation to how early man survived.

[Anonymous No.9790450]

>>9790070
They're a keto advocate

[Anonymous No.9790460]

>>9787610
>hunter-gatherers had it hard
I want this meme to stop. Hunter-gatherers work an average of 3 hours a day and spend the rest of the time lying around, eating, and talking about eating.

[Anonymous No.9790461]

>>9787518
FPBP

[Anonymous No.9790468]

>>9787518
>Animals
>peasants
pick one. potato, onion and frogs were main ration of most western population.

[Anonymous No.9790473]

>>9790468
>potato

[Anonymous No.9790961]

>>9789525
Because most of those were shit. It does feel bad though, my favorite corn got axed last year. It had shit yield, no way you can plant it commercially, plust half the plants have mutations that make them unusable, but I plant some for own use every year, still have a bunch of seeds left,m going to try and breed the mutations out of them as a hobby the net decade or two.

[Anonymous No.9790968]

>>9790473
make that parsley root instead of potato and it's fine.

[Anonymous No.9790974]

>>9790468
>frogs
why are mayonnaise-americans so deluded as to what constitutes animal protein? I even dated a girl who claimed to be vegetarian but ate chicken literally every other day.

and no french aren't white

[Anonymous No.9790982]

>>9787866
That's why you eat more than rabbits.

I'm pretty sure that small, fast animals weren't the strong point of early hunters. It's easier to frighten a herd of megafauna into stampeding over a cliff or just spear attacks on a big target. It's also a more efficient use of your time when you have fifty people to feed.

[Anonymous No.9790987]

>>9790468
Bacon and cabbage, actually. Beer from barley. Reasonable amounts of cheese and milk. And truly terrible bread made of unpopular, cheap grains.

[Anonymous No.9790998]

>>9787497
>when all plants were like this
lolno, all plants were never like that. Just because some northern fruits had to be genetically modified to even be edible, doesn't mean everything was.

There are thousands of wild equatorial fruits that are naturally packed with sugar.

Also, low population densities dumbass

[Anonymous No.9791012]

>>9787551
not THAT much smaller. But they had brains that required less energy as well.

[Anonymous No.9791019]

>>9787497
>>9787547
You don't need 2000 calories today unless you are a 6'5+ man. Ordinary men need closer to 1500 and women around 1200. It all depends on how big of a human being you are but the 2000 calorie figure is completely ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.9791028]

>>9787611
>eskimos as an example

right. now use catus as an example for a well nourished plant. also note that venus is habitable because it has a stable atmosphere.

[Anonymous No.9791066]

>>9789522
>I mean the kalahari bushmen stand out as not-fish-eaters but theres a reason they haven't colonized the world.

Large groups need sustainable food sources. There are legends and even fossil evidence of "giants" who used to live long ago; the Inuit have legends about a tall, strong, gentle people who used to inhabit the arctic (not the norse, they didn't have light hair or anything). They were supposedly easy for the Inuit to slaughter.

I think generally what's been happening is that the supply of resources has been diminishing, and selecting for smaller stature and greater populations. A group of 20 5'5" men will always outcompete a group of 10 6'2" men.

In hunter gatherer groups, this resource was often fish. But I think there were probably hunter groups that hunted mostly red meat; these groups would have been small in number and quickly mixed into the rest of humanity, or get conquered easily.

[Anonymous No.9791069]

>>9788295
Are you an eskimo?
If not, that factoid is completely irrelevant to your personal health.

[Anonymous No.9791087]

>>9791019
Nigga what? I'm barely 6 feet and If I eat less than 2500 calories I lose weight.

[Anonymous No.9791090]

>>9790961
>Because most of those were shit.

No, most of those were not shit. They were just not as marketable, shippable, and storable as what industrial farms and supermarkets use now. Due to ultra cheap food and industiral farming methods, people simply stopped farming and a huge amount of rare seeds were lost forever. An extreme example are land race varieties grown only by a single family. It may be a variety that's 200 years old, but only known to that family. On the other hand, there's a people out there who own 3,000 tomato varieties yet only a few of them are grown on their farm and maybe 1 or two are commercialized in any way.

That last sentence reminds me that the image in >>9789525 is quite a bit dated and seriously limited since it only deals with cultivars in the National Seed Storage Laboratory.

There is a lot of stuff out there still, but they need to be grown and expanded simply for stop-gap measures against pandemic crop diseases.

[Anonymous No.9791141]

>>9791019
>1500

Maybe as coma patient.

[Anonymous No.9791167]

>>9790982
'Rabbit starvation' is not meant in the literal sense. The macronutrient composition is based on whole-carcass data from modern day homologues like caribou and buffalo. You don't find wild animals with significant adipose depots outside the arctic.

[Anonymous No.9791177]

>>9787699
It always blows my mind that all the fruit and vegetables we eat used to be like this

[Anonymous No.9791196]

>>9787589
Then why do we have molar teeth? Idiot

[Anonymous No.9791202]

>>9790982
>>9791167
Also, the idea of high-efficiency megafauna hunting and its necessity for calories isn't exactly in stone. Here's a good discussion on it with some contradicting evidence

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4419-6733-6_12

[Anonymous No.9791208]

>>9787786
Should also note that grains evolved predominantly in the Fertile Crescent (Iraq, Syria) where the climate facilitated the evolution . The Americas only had corn and quinoa. This is also why Europe came out ahead of other civilizations, as these grains only migrated along similar climate zones. So east/west instead of north/south. Sorry Nazis..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Agriculture

[Anonymous No.9791219]

>>9791090
>Spoils faster
>Lower yield
>cant be shipped without breaking apart
>more expensive to grow

>i-its not shit guys, its just different!

[Anonymous No.9791220]

>>9787786
Should also note that grains evolved predominantly in the Fertile Crescent (Iraq, Syria) where the Mediterranean climate facilitated the clustered evolution of half the worlds grains/cereals. The Americas only had corn and quinoa. This is also why Europe came out ahead of other civilizations, as these grains only migrated along similar climate zones. So east/west instead of north/south. Sorry Nazis..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel#Agriculture

[Anonymous No.9791238]

>>9787497
A) They didn't require that much
B) If so, they had a huge variety of food sources
-roots
-insects
-meat
-stems
-seeds
-nuts

[Anonymous No.9791248]

>>9791219
when you are growing it on your won farm instead of paying jude for it, all those things don't matter. also, they'd only be lower yielding using industrial farming methods.

[Anonymous No.9791360]

>>9790340
In Nourishing Traditions, Enig and Fallon mention a study where children were left to eat instinctively from a buffet of food. Their favorite was raw calf brain.

[Anonymous No.9791384]

>>9791220
>Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
>defending muh magical success clay meme

get the fuck out and never return here

[Anonymous No.9791430]

>>9791384
What the fuck does this even mean?

[Anonymous No.9791434]

>>9791384
What the fuck does this even mean?

[Anonymous No.9791437]

>>9791384
Oh, I get it. You're angry I ruined that funny joke you make about libtards and black people. Sorry for ruining that funny joke you keep making. Literally your reason for living. Sorry for making you want to die.

[Anonymous No.9791438]

>>9787497
They ate the white part.

[Anonymous No.9792018]

>>9791248
As someone who owns a farm and does both 'industrial' farming and personal farming on a smaller scale (with different varieties ill give you that) please explain to me what the diffidence between the two are (except that the one is automated with expensive equipment and the other is done by hand but I could theoretically use the equipment in my smaller plots as well if I had enough space to turn a 100m implement).

[Anonymous No.9792029]

>>9791220
This explains why half of Europe immediately switched to potatoes at the first opportunity.

[Anonymous No.9792032]

>>9791437
Being a teenager is basically the same thing as being black, because you have no money or power. It's understandable if you want to defend yourself by proxy. Your parents/white people are so unfair.

[Anonymous No.9792101]

>>9787722
There was a point before civilized farming and agriculture. Plants rapidly evolved with domesticating them. Imagine if you'd have lived in Australia you may have never seen a potato or corn. And corn back then looked like a zipper.

[Anonymous No.9792161]

Why cant they make grapefruit like this?

[Anonymous No.9792167]

>>9791012
>not that much smaller
You know humans have been growing in height for only 250 years right?
And even then the average male height in Britain was 5'6 100 years ago l according to army conscription records. Not to mention communities of males smaller in than 5'3 in English industrial towns that were allowed to enlist in the military because why not
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantam_(military)

[Anonymous No.9792701]

>>9791019
You'r talking to fat Amiricans dude. Dont mess with they calories the get mad.
See>>9791087
>>9791141

[Anonymous No.9792726]

>>9792701

Are you fucking stupid or just trolling?

I'm a 6'1" American and 165 pounds, if I don't have at least 2500 calories a day I can't focus on school/work, and definitely can't hit the gym or go running unless I'm at 3000+ per day (which I do)

I'm not /fit/ nor skeleton mode, but I'm definitely not fat. Anyone on earth over 6 feet tall is eating ~2500 calories a day. Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.9792729]

>>9787518
> 100g of meat a week
Alright maine.

[Anonymous No.9792731]

>>9792726
That's not the calories that you need.
It's the sugar in your fat food amerishart.

[Anonymous No.9792734]

>>9792018
See: >>>/out/1286852 however it is mostly monocrops and linking the inputs for the farm to the outside instead of having some semblance of internal sustainment. through that, it connects all aspects to the farming & food industries as a whole. With non-industrial farming, everything can remain on the farm from beginning to end. In order for an industrial farm to be financially viable it must use a specific set of farming techniques. That is normally always heavy uses of pesticides, chemical fertilizers, monocrops, automated equipment, and so on.

[Anonymous No.9792736]

They had biodiversty and knowledge thereof that is completely alien to urbanized subhumans. They had avalible food sources in variety and abundance a few orders of magnitude above the biggest supermarkets which have a variety of 1000 iterations of commodities produced from the same round up ready corn.

[Anonymous No.9792739]

>>9787497
they didn't, Jesus was like 5'4"

[Anonymous No.9792740]

>>9792731
Not him, but I'm the same way and I haven't had sugar, sweeteners, or artificial varies for over 10 years. Same with eggs, dairy products, and grains (trying homegrown grains this year). I farm 80% of my own food, 10% traded with family and neighbors for what they grow and 10% is stuff I don't grow yet like some spices, herbs, coffee, tea, etc.

>>9792736
They also had foods that were not watery, sugary domesticated versions we have now in stores.

[Anonymous No.9792823]

>>9792734
Im getting real tired of this shit, 90% of farms fall outside this classification of industrial and family farm/personal farm/sustainable farm/whatever bullshit name people can think up at the time. In every single discussion about farming by retards in the city who think they know farming the definition changes to suit them, I dont use growth hormones on my cattle?, 'Thats because you arnt an industrial farm! in real industrial farms they use it, no matter that its against the law!', oh, you use pesiticides/whatever? thats because you are industrialized, you arnt a real family farm that only uses their own shit and plows the earth with their dicks! people seem to think farming is either like organic vegan propaganda videos, or like how those people who move to the country with hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings to fuck around growing organic vegetables and sell them at a loss at a farmers market because lol simple life is so great. fuck off, I dont know a single farmer that falls into the Internets classification of farming outside the one retired guy from england that keeps protesting about animal cruelty and feeds his dogs only non meat products. Im friends with a farmer thats one of the 20 largest producers of maize and probably up these for cattle as well, and the way I farm on my extremely small farm is the exact same as him, in my commercial crops and my personal garden, except for the equipment which is a lot smaller.

[Anonymous No.9792850]

>>9792823
You are an filthy, chemical pushing, industrial farmer. Getting mad about that fact just shows everyone how much of a green jude you really are. You are the enemy that's trying to poison our children.

[Anonymous No.9792929]

>>9787497
Many people didn't get to eat enough and died. Most people who survived based almost all of their time performing survival tasks.

[Anonymous No.9792949]

>>9788295
Meat and fish (which is commonly known to be much healthier than meat), and their life expectancy is like 20 years below an average European

[Anonymous No.9793147]

>>9791196
To be able to masticate raw meat.

[Anonymous No.9793416]

>>9792823
yes. farmers don't have the economic freedom to not rape their land, you rape your farm for everything its got or the bank takes it.
this is exactly why bi agriculture needs to be destroyed and we need to redistribute land to communities (fuck your worthless "friend" who just makes money for having a legal contract to property rights, the people actually doing the farming should have the land and they should have the economic opportunity to do it in a way that isn't destructive. we need to organize commodity markets make to a community scale and not on an international scale.
this problem is very apparent in the developing world, in rich countries its happened along time ago and now the agricultural economy is stuck in a death grip.

[Anonymous No.9793917]

>>9793416
>farmers don't have the economic freedom to not rape their land, you rape your farm for everything its got or the bank takes it.
where did this idea come from? If you rape your land, you get lower yields every year, do you know how much research and money goes into preventing that? its precisely the people who do rape their land that looses it in the end.

>fuck your worthless "friend" who just makes money for having a legal contract to property rights, the people actually doing the farming should have the land and they should have the economic opportunity
this commie shit will never work, he not only bought the land, but also buys and maintains tens to hundereds of millions of dollars worth of equipment used to farm, which allows his couple thousand workers to sit in a nice airconditined tractor cap instead of plowing the field with a mule. But I quess everyone should get free tractors, pickups, combines and everything as well?

[Anonymous No.9793920]

>>9787497

[Anonymous No.9793946]

>>9790982
Hunts would have involved a lot less fighting than you think. We evolved as endurance hunters. To sum it up shortly, you would basically jog a marathon chasing the animal, giving it no time to rest or cool down. We’re one of the greatest endurance runners in the animal kingdom, and so the animal will tire first, either giving up or collapsing. At this point you just walk up to it and kill something which is too exhausted to defend itself.

[Anonymous No.9793957]

>>9787497
Calorie requirements are a myth created by the massive food industry. I eat around 500 calories a day (and im 5'11), not a skeleton FYI. I eat 300 grams of salmon 3x a week and some vegtables and kiwi on the side lines. Thats it. Doing it for over a year now. STOP BELIEVING the media dumb amerimutts.

[Anonymous No.9793960]

>>9793957
"The calorie, cal, is defined as the amount of energy (heat) needed to increase the temperature of one gram of water by 1oC". There are literally foods out there the size of a dice that contains 10,000 calories and nothing happens when you eat it. (((CALORIES))) ARE A MYTH dumb goys. But whatever, keep eating those mcdonalds.

[Anonymous No.9793967]

Seriously though, they just ate a whole lot of shit, and then squeezed out some monster paleo shits.

[Anonymous No.9793971]

>>9793946
You forget to mention that humans back tqhen would have also made extensive use of tools and tracking. Two very important components of endurance hunting.

[Anonymous No.9793972]

>>9793960
depends on how you define a calorie. At least the thermochemical calorie is consistent. The food calorie, on the other hand, is a bit confusing. When talking about food calories, we're talking about 1000 thermocalories and the labeling on most food packagqing is inconsistent. Some packaging indicate the units as "kcal" while others just use "cal".

[Anonymous No.9793993]

>>9791069
Most of us are of European descent, our ancestors have eaten a lot of meat examples like the 400,000 year old spears in Germany with massive amount of animal bones and the 1.8 million year old homo georsomething in Georgia with sabertooth tiger remains beside it