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/sci/ - Science & Math

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9539088 No.9539088 [Reply] [Original]

Why do viruses exist /sci/ and how do we eradicate these little fuckers?

>> No.9539103

>>9539088
They are just living rna. Pretty incredible when you think about it.

>> No.9539106

>>9539088
One guess was that they are degenerated bacteria. So even if the miracle happened that we could erase all of them, they would come back in some form sooner or later.

>> No.9539112

If you eradicated them you'd probably doom life on Earth. Many useful mutations come from viruses, and viruses that are helpful to the host usually don't kill them, its viruses that are useful to other animals that hurt us.

>> No.9539113

>>9539088

they are like the reapers in mass effect

organics need to be purged every once in a while

>> No.9539160

>>9539103
You are just living DNA.

And no. Viruses have meant types of genomes.

>> No.9539187

>>9539160
Not the same thing, they are just dna/rna.

>> No.9539198

what would a virus do if we increased its size to, lets say a dog?

>> No.9539248

>>9539198
collapse or fail to inject anything into a cell
at worst it'd just shoot rna into your bloodstream

>> No.9539276

>>9539198
>latches onto you
>dumps dog sized clump of genetic material into your shit

>> No.9539433

>>9539088
Why do textbooks always depict viruses like OP pic as an archetypal virus. What virus even looks like that thing?

>> No.9539455

>>9539088
hey now that's not nice they're just trying to live like everyone else

>> No.9539466

>>9539433
>t. virus
nice try buddy

>> No.9539570

>>9539088
They are molecular machines basically the before stage of what we call life.

>> No.9539577

>>9539433
yeah show us a picture of yourself big guy, what does a REAL virus look like

>> No.9539912

>>9539433
>What virus even looks like that thing?
It's a bacteriophage. I think it was the first virus we were able to see.

>> No.9539918

>>9539433
nice try, virus guy

>> No.9539934

the bacteriophage is fucking weird man I don't like it just look at it like what the fuck

>> No.9539990

>>9539934

It's clearly artificial. It looks like a machine.

>> No.9539999
File: 765 KB, 800x625, bacterphages.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9539999

>>9539990
I think it's just an artists' rendition. They look more like this in reality... but it's not too far off.

>> No.9540009

>>9539248
>>9539276

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.

>> No.9540011

>>9540009
rna in your bloodstream will do literally nothing

>> No.9540052
File: 66 KB, 644x500, brainlet.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9540052

>>9539112
>viruses are helpful to the hosts

>> No.9540604

>>9539088
Pick them off your cell with little tweezers. They're essentially mechanical ticks.

>> No.9540812
File: 72 KB, 473x453, virus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9540812

>>9539433
nice try you piece of shit

>> No.9540977

>>9540011
Unless it's an amount of rna the size of a dog. I think it'll do something then.

>> No.9540981

>>9540977
>rna the size of a dog
ew

>> No.9541107
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9541107

>>9539248
>>9539198
>>9540009
>>9540011
I just imagined something like a combination of The Thing and the t-virus, it mutates any host into a... utility... that just like sprays infected blood all over you, you mutate too, and so on.

>> No.9541348

>about 8 percent of what we think of as our “human” DNA actually came from viruses

>> No.9541367

>>9539088
You have to take the crown from the kings and queens of their kingdom

>> No.9541417

>>9541348
pretty interesting when you think about it.
all humans share signs of some retroviral infection from hundreds of thousands of years ago, the evidence is in our genome

>> No.9541439

>>9539112
t. virus>>9539433

>> No.9541455

>>9539088
Some viruses (called passenger viruses) are harmless and others actually enter into a symbiotic relationship with their hosts (GBV-C infected AIDS patients tend to survive longer than uninfected patients for instance). It's even hypothesized that the nucleus in eukaryotic cells is an endosymbiotic remnant of an ancient virus that was engulfed by a large protozoan, much like mitochondria in eukaryotes or chloroplasts in plants. Evidence for this includes the composition of the nuclear envelope and conserved DNA sequences shared with Mimiviruses.

... so, get the fuck outta here with your virus chauvinism OP!

>> No.9541458

>>9539088
Also phages represent one of the only viable alternatives to antibiotic therapy for treating bacterial infections in humans. Some Eastern European doctors even prescribe them. Advantages include that they're self-limiting, they exist in the host until the bacteria are eradicated completely (no resistance), they're specific to only one kind of bacteria and don't kill eubacteria like those found in the intestinal flora, and they don't have as many side effects aside from an occasional toxic reaction from all the dead bacteria that the host has to clean.

Viruses are awesome.

>> No.9541549

>>9539088
Nano machines son.
Once you start getting to virus sized threats it stops being more biology than it is physics.

>> No.9541623
File: 111 KB, 1000x750, virusposting.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9541623

>>9539112
>>9541439
don't listen to their lies

>> No.9541675

>>9541623
Fuck, he's onto us

>> No.9541681
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9541681

>>9541623

>> No.9542184

>>9539999
nice quads

>> No.9542185

>>9541623
underrated post

>> No.9542262

>>9539088
Bacteriophage viruses are very important to the balance of biololgy.

iirc some Eastern Europe actually uses virus "cocktails" that contain specific bacteriophages to treat normally incurable diseases.

>> No.9542276

>>9539088
Vaccines. Without hosts to infect they get tired and die.

>> No.9542330

>>9539112
VIDF pls go

>> No.9542339

>>9539187
dont thet also have cell structure n sheit?

>> No.9542356

>>9539433
dem books be raciss. We wus mutashions n shiet

>> No.9542430

>>9539112
>(((life)))
>"us"
insert days_without_virus_tricks.jpeg

>> No.9542691

>>9539103
Not living. They don't react to environmental changes.

>> No.9542753 [DELETED] 

>>9539103
>>9539187
>>>/tv/

>> No.9542791

>>9542691
What? Yes they do

>> No.9542909

>>9541623
kekd

>> No.9543035

>>9539088

A lot of of our RNA is from viruses.

Viruses could've caused evolution.

Viruses are possibly an offshoot of a protocell and evolved into what they are today.

>> No.9543042

>>9539088
Viruses likely evolved from contagious vesicles filled with defective DNA that only coded for making for contagious vesicles. Through clonal selection the vesicles containing the DNA that coded for the most effective vesicles and the rest is history.
>>9539103
>RNA
There are DNA viruses, if anything they're more common.

>> No.9543046

>>9539112
You probably wouldn't doom life, but it is true that a non-insignificant portion of all DNA in all living things was transported to it by a virus.

>> No.9543053
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9543053

>>9539198
Collapse under its own weight. Viruses aren't motile either and require another method of transportation than themselves.
>>9541107
>tfw lacking glycoprotein complexes the virus needs to infect me
Get fucked "le ultimate life form"
*absorbed you in a lysosome*

>> No.9543063
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9543063

> mfw finally comfy biology thread on /sci/

>> No.9543067
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9543067

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcYH6se6Cdo

this documentary blew my mind.

it's explains how viruses might of played a role in evolution.

>> No.9543071

>>9543063
Incoming engineeringfags in 3... 2...

>> No.9543076

>>9539088
Virus exist because they want to live

>> No.9543081
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9543081

>yfw you realize at this moment billions of your cells are desperately trying to destroy that one fragment of nucleotides and an enzyme before it hits the nucleus

>> No.9543083

>>9539088
I wouldn't worry about it.

>> No.9543086

>>9541458
Also they are generally useful to transport whatever relatively short rna you want, and thus express the protein you want. They are lovely tools

>> No.9543088
File: 287 KB, 600x600, 1505353532270.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9543088

>>9543076

They are alive. Our definition of "living" is so narrow, for all we know we don't meet the standards of "living" to another species in the galaxy.

>> No.9543090

>>9543081
> desperately

M8 that shits easy they do it thousand times per minute, even bacteria are expert at that

>> No.9543097

>>9542691
wouldnt you argue that plants are living?

>> No.9543098

>>9543090
I mean if they make one mistake that's end, I'd say that's pretty desperate.

>> No.9543100

>>9542691
They do. The biggest argument against them living organisms is that they cannot reproduce independently.

>> No.9543101

>>9541623
jej

>> No.9543117

>>9543098
Mistakes while cleaving rna? You should lack the enzymes to do it, in which case you are in bigger problems altogether than a virus infection

>> No.9543130

>>9543117
The reactions inside of a cell happen mainly through brownian motion though, there is a chance the genetic material wont be encountered by an enzyme designed to break it down.

>> No.9543286

There is life in every aspect of this world... Life on Earth can't have life with life growing inside of that life

>> No.9543298

>>9541623
hah

>> No.9543629

They have always existed. If you're actually interested look up Transposons & Retrotransposons:

In summary, you have DNA that is able to move around in the string of sequence because they can make copies of themselves, splice themselves out and then insert themselves into a separate region of your genome because they encode for certain protein and are flanked by a distinct repetitive sequence. Transposons have to physically remove themselves to reinsert themselves; retrotransposons just keep making new copies so they increase in numbers quicker. HIV is evolved retrotransposons, they are the exact same shit except they also have a capsid coding sequence that lets them cross membranes and infect other cells. If you look on the other side of evolution, you find parasites of these parasitic DNA that have the flanking sequence that is recognized for cleavage/insertion, but that lack the string that codes for the protein needed for them to splice out and insert themselves. So they pirate their machinery from the retrotransposons.

>TLDR viruses are DNA that found a way to become independent, they evolved off of DNA, you have a fuck ton dormant inside you and you have viruses that are parasites for these viruses

DNA is nothing more than a highly reactive molecule. If it finds a way to self replicate, it will do it until it can't no more. Otherwise it will die off and degrade

>> No.9543652

>>9539088
Viruses are essential for life, oddly enough.
They were found to play a roll in the development process of a fetus in the womb of sheep, and removing them led to a cease of fetal development...

If you kill ALL the viruses, you kill life as we know it.

>> No.9543660

>>9543629
DNA isn't that reactive though, it's actually super stable

>> No.9543663

>>9539198
>A gazelle is staggering along, vomiting blood
>Bulbous protrusions slither around inside it's abdomen
>It's violently rent apart by 50 baseball sized spider-like creatures that skitter into the grasslands

>> No.9543669

>>9543071
>thinking its just engineers who make fun of biology
Math and physics majors here have the most disdain for you guys.

>> No.9543678

>>9543660
That's only because it is condensed. If it weren't reactive it couldn't self assemble or replicate

>> No.9543690

>>9543678
Wait, the way my professor always taught it was that DNA self-assembled because it was thermodynamically favored over reactive single nucleotides or RNA. Is this wrong?

>> No.9543721

>>9543690
Nah, any reaction that takes place in your body including molecular folding is thermodynamically favored. But the moment regions of DNA decondense promotors will be recognized and a chain reaction of transcription, translation and protein modification will take place. The double helix itself isnt that reactive but it is recognized by transcription factors that assemble into huge ogliomeric structures to carry out transcription. mRNA is pretty reactive and can react with itself which is why we get alternative splicing. Protein are crazy reactive and are modified all the time based on their sequence & localization. When I was talking about reactive didn't mean it in the covalent-bond-forming kind of way.

>> No.9544120

>>9539999
Kind of funny that some of these viruses look all deformed and fucked up. Like a virus birth defect.

>> No.9544154

>>9544120
Almost like these viruses had.. Viruses

>> No.9544456

>>9543669
I don't understand why as biology literally doesn't effect their fields.

>> No.9544606

>>9544456
Because they are sexually repressed

>> No.9544989

>>9543053
Shit that sounds like one hell of a dandy genetic mutation, any downsides?

>> No.9544991

>>9543652
How so? I'm curious

>> No.9544999

>>9543071
The 6-factor equation allows us to do basic reactor physics

>> No.9545021

>>9541623
this is stupid why did you even post this?

>> No.9545052

>>9541623

Do we have the right to destroy viruses though? They're a form of life just as valuable as humans are.

>> No.9545100

>>9545052
>a form of life
t. Optimistic virologist

>> No.9545148
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9545148

>Part of the human genome is comprised of virus RNA

>> No.9545152

What would be the virus equivalent of multicellular life? Is that what vampires are?

>> No.9545155

>>9541623
I haven't laughed this hard in a while, thank you.

>> No.9545165

>>9545148
There is strong evidence that the mammalian placetna is caused by a viral mutation. Basically humans could never exist without virus causing random evolutionary mutation

>> No.9545182

>>9545165
Source because that would be an awesome read

>> No.9545184

>>9545148
DNA actually
>>9545165
Article pls

>> No.9545197

>>9544989
Well if you lacked the specific marker the virus needs to infect a cell you're innately immune, if you lacked all markers though you would die.

>> No.9545217

>>9541623
first one of these i've seen that's specific to /sci/

>> No.9545248

>>9545182
>>9545184
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/02/14/mammals-made-by-viruses/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/evolution/endogenous-retroviruses/

>Early mammals used the spare viral parts left in the junk drawers of the genome to use a viral gene to help create the placenta, and other symbiotic viruses help turn us from a ball of cells into a fully-formed squalling infant and protect us from pathogens.
>Scientists are discovering that the so-called “junk DNA”—a significant portion of which is from symbiotic viruses—is actually a potent force in the evolution of new species. Although the evolution of pregnancy via the placenta might be some of the most persuasive evidence that viruses stashed deep within the genome can help give rise to new species, it’s not the only proof. New studies revealing the role of endogenous retroviruses in the more recent evolution of humans show that these snippets of DNA are helping to blur the boundary between human and virus. Humans are, in a very real sense, part virus.

>> No.9545297
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9545297

>>9545248
>Viruses can cause generational cancer risk
I knew shit like HPV can cause cancer but holy shit

>> No.9545427

>>9542691
living/nonliving distinction is a spook

>> No.9545493

>>9545427
/lit/ pls go

>> No.9545547

>>9545427
Silence, my property.

>> No.9545597

RNA virus > DNA virus.

>> No.9545625

>>9545597
DNA virus that transcripts to RNA then back to DNA>All others

>> No.9545816
File: 1.05 MB, 1800x1322, 1504112230792.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9545816

best thread on the board

>> No.9545819

>>9540052
There are viruses harmless to human which can be manipulated in a way to implement some changes in human gut. Read some literature about it. Some shit about lactose intolerance.

>> No.9545823

>>9539106
>One guess was that they are degenerated bacteria.
Is this generally accepted today?

>> No.9546660

Are there DNA/RNA viruses without a protein jacket?

>> No.9546670

>>9546660
Yes, they are called viroids and they are the cause of many plant diseases.

>> No.9546695

no one knows excactly, there are theories that it wasn't even born on earth

>> No.9546698
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9546698

>>9539198
and people say us biologists are brainlets

>> No.9546703

>>9546695
>viruses have common DNA with all living organisms and coatings clearly derived from targeted vesicles
>they're from another planet
Popsci?

>> No.9546704

>>9543663
Oh FUCK that, thank God for the square cube law and viruses' lack of cellular respiration.

>> No.9546710

>>9545547
kek
have a (you)

>> No.9546721
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9546721

>>9539088
>biological viruses are exactly like computer viruses, malicious rna code

>> No.9546728
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9546728

>>9541623
I wouldn't be surprised if fungus lurked /sci/ too

>> No.9546740

>>9546721
I guess that means we're computers

>> No.9546766
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9546766

>>9543721
Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant reactive as in unstable or prone to reacting with other molecules.

>> No.9546863
File: 21 KB, 240x350, untitled_drawing_by_supertrex57-db3dxls.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9546863

I have a theory that I was discussing with my genetics professor last semester. It gets a tad bit philosophical, so I could definitely be wrong, but it goes something like this:

If we assume that the ultimate goal an organism is to propagate its genetic code, viruses may be an alternative means of doing so for bacteria. In addition to mitotic division, bacteria may have, at one point, been able to genetically "rape" other forms of cellular life by creating viruses. The viral RNA would be the transcript of a portion of the mother bacterial DNA, and this RNA, once injected into the new host cell, would be translated and allow for the assembly of viral components inside the cell. These newly formed viruses would eventually lyse the cell and go on to propagate that fragment of RNA which could be traced back to a portion of bacterial DNA.

>So why would viruses use bacterial RNA instead of DNA?
Well that all comes down to practicality. A virus cannot perform any transcription or translation on its own, instead relying on the host cell to do its work for it. Host ribosomes do all of the translation of the viral RNA. Ribosomes do this translation outside of the nucleus, whereas transcription of DNA to RNA happens inside the nucleus. It would be pretty fucking hard for viral DNA to work its way into the nucleus to be transcribed, so the mother bacteria transcribes the viral genome itself. All the viral RNA has to do once inside the cell is wait; it will be translated eventually. Viruses, by themselves, are essentially neets, and they need hard working cells to do everything for them.

Let me know what you guys think. Pic unrelated.

>> No.9546867

>>9541623
>>9546728
holy kekimus hahaha

>> No.9546944

>>9545816

Diogenes is the most reddit of Hellenistic philosophy.

>> No.9547062

>>9546944

go away brainlet.

>> No.9547431

>>9546944
Socrates literally made a Classical Greece version of Reddit.

>> No.9547614

>>9543071
>le engineers are always mean and don't like biology meme

biology is fucking interesting, I just don't wanna do it.

>> No.9548615
File: 1.86 MB, 500x275, 1518931075218.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9548615

>>9547614
>Not being a biological engineer

>> No.9548671
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9548671

Hello! 2 Questions for you Experts:

1. Could you make a list of reasons viruses are considered alive, not alive, and maybe? Thx!

2. Could we find alien viruses on the moon or mars? Is a virus molecule more likely to randomly generate than single or multicellular life, or is other life nessicary we think to also generate viruses? Thank you

>> No.9548705

>>9540604
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNflyrH414g

>> No.9548709

>>9548671
>1. Could you make a list of reasons viruses are considered alive, not alive, and maybe? Thx!
They are not alive because they have no metabolism. They are just proteins.

2.
Moon is rather unlikely but Mars and other exo planets are likely.

>> No.9548721

>>9542339
no, they don't cellularly respirate either, and can live dormant infinitely and can only survive in hosts

>> No.9548723

>>9543100
no cellular respiration either

>> No.9548739

>>9548671
1- They aren't cells, they are just a group of enzymes with DNA, if they are living organisms, enzymes should be too.

2-There is no life that can appear randomly, every living being has to be associated to something else, if aliens were at the moon or mars we could find viruses. There was an experiment which i forgot the name where they tried to make life using CHON atoms, different reactions and energy of course, and what came out was just a bunch of membranes without life.

Im not an expert but its what i know, i would appreciate to correct if i'm wrong.

>> No.9548751

>>9548709
>>9548739

Thank you both!

It would seem to me that viruses could be called quasi-life because if they have RNA and CAN reproduce when in contact with a more complex living organism, the virus evolved to reproduce, its just waiting for a host, so its in stasis kinda like a frozen embryo, useless by itself but life once its unthawed and spermed

>> No.9548984

>>9548739
The miller experiment. I believe the conclusion of that was that given enough time life would eventually form since they were able to create amino acids and phospholipids

>> No.9548990

>>9548671
1. Viruses lack a metabolism, they rely entirely on external sources of energy to work such as conformational changes caused by encountering a glycoprotein. Viruses also don't meet the requirement for being able to independently reproduce as they require a living cell to create their parts.
2.On the moon there are almost certainly no living things or remnants of them which are basically required for viruses to exist, but I'm not sure Mars never had life.
>>9547614
It's a meme you dip

>> No.9549481
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9549481

>>9541623
>there are viruses in this thread posting as we speak

>> No.9549500

>>9549481
Explains why there are so many mathfags on this board

>> No.9549511

>>9545297
Viruses are large cause of many cancers, my dude. HPV, hep viruses, herpes viruses. Its pretty scary.

>> No.9549514

>>9545625
Retroviruses are truly the GOAT of viruses.

>> No.9549537

>>9548615
she is cute

>>9548990
that's what I said, so you're the dip, dip.

>> No.9550063
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9550063

>>9546728
Well I am a fungi

>> No.9550108
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9550108

>>9550063

>> No.9550120
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9550120

We have thousands of viruses living inside our human body and we also have bacteria that eats the viruses. That's why probiotics can damage your immune system. You introduce a bacteria that your body wasn't meant to have and you can get sick because there isn't enough virus for the bacteria to eat thus damageing our immune system and our dna. Or if you want to damage your dna faster just drop acid. That will do it.

>> No.9550125
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9550125

>>9550063
CARLOS!

>> No.9550135
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9550135

>>9550120
You're very obviously trolling but this is one of the dumbest things I've read on this board

>> No.9550136
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9550136

Like scientist lets play god and use stem cells to rebuild arms and dna. like the magic school bus says DROP ACID. or be cool and watch bill nye. way better.

>> No.9550190
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9550190

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-know-anything-about/

>Dinosaurs had birth and growth defects just like we do
>Dinosaurs got infections just like we do, specifically a tooth abscess
>Dinosaurs had shitty joints that developed later in life just like we do
>Dinosaurs got cancer just like we do

>No evidence of viruses in dinosaurs

What the fuck? 65+ million years ago our ancient ancient ancestors developed REMARKABLY similar ailments and diseases that we do, but there has never once been an instance of dinosaurs being found with any evidence of virus.

What changed?

>> No.9550198
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9550198

sup i study virology

well actually i take a piece of dirt outside and try to sequence the DNA of whatever is inside

my thoughts after a lot of long nights pondering this: its a living thing that spreads by reproducing inside other living things

think of HIV family of viruses competing vs Ebola family of viruses vs SARS family for control of the fucking earth

>> No.9550209

>>9550198

i call bullshit. You aren't studying shit.

Also, define living.

Also, if you were smart you would've define them both living and dead.

>> No.9550223

>>9550209

rn im studying a slime mold that hosts bacteria insdie of itself without eating them, the virus i study infects this said bacteria and you can make them do whatever u want since it lives inside the bacteria which lives inside the mold

>> No.9550226
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9550226

>>9546721
Mind viruses are like the other two as well. We're experiencing a memetic plague with epidemics of mind-viruses at the present. A plague of frogs, very classical.

>> No.9550251

>>9539112
att. virus

>> No.9550256

>>9541455
hi virus!

>> No.9550272

>>9550190
Chad dinosaur immune systems.

>> No.9550313

>>9541623
saved

>> No.9550478

>>9548721
>and can live dormant infinitely and can only survive in hosts
Isn't that a contradiction?

>> No.9550492

>>9539088
viruses are the reason you have your brain and conciousness, so think twice before removing them

>> No.9550504

>>9550478
Not really, Viruses don't actually live in the first place. If they're in a stable environment that won't denature their RNA then they can exist indefinitely. Once they encounter a host they infect, replicate and spread. Then those ones stay dormant in stable conditions until a new host comes along.

Rinse and repeat until you've got viruses infecting other viruses and it's turtles all the way down.

>> No.9550543

>>9540052
Wasn't a virus responsible for mutations that helped us turn out like we are

>> No.9551313
File: 74 KB, 399x413, Yoshie Kurahashi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9551313

>>9550543
What if the source of conscious self-awareness comes from a virus?

>> No.9551386

>>9539999
They literally look like big headed babies fucking a giant egg. Life is crazy.

>> No.9551445

>>9539088
Why do niggers exist /sci/ and how do we eradicate these fuckers?

>> No.9551451

>>9541623
Put me in the screenshot

>> No.9552994

>>9551445
Because wypipo wouldn't pick their own damn cotton.

>> No.9554605

>>9550190
Since viruses only affect specific cells/bacteria, I'd imagine there just wasn't any viruses that had the proper proteins to interact with most dinosaurs' genome

>> No.9554696

>>9540052
Not intentionally, but sometimes the stars aligned and a particular viral invasion failed in a convenient and specific enough way for our genome to get a rare evolutionary loot drop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncytin-1