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/sci/ - Science & Math

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9533746 No.9533746 [Reply] [Original]

>Optical illusions exist
>Therefore, consciousness doesn't
>mfw

>> No.9533753

>>9533746
>religion says free will exists
>therefore muh fedora demands it doesn't

>>>/trash/

>> No.9533768

>>9533746
Strawman.

>> No.9533771

>the brain does things
>therefore, consciousness doesn't exist

.t Dennett-san

>> No.9534204

>>9533753
I feel bad for the "people" that were born without free will

>> No.9534209
File: 59 KB, 468x382, free will.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9534209

>>9534204
obligatory

I think Dennet's views on consciousness are quite silly but he's spot-on about free will.

>> No.9534228

Is free will like a muscle? Can I increase how much I have over time?

>> No.9534232

>>9534228
Of course, you just have to exercise your free will.

>> No.9534284

Why is Western "philosophy" so garbage? The free will problem doesn't even exist in the East because they aren't total retards there.

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.

>> No.9534314

>>9533746
>Optical illusions exist

Yeah as effects, not causes and effects are illusions. How does this even tie into consciousness?

>>9534284
this.

>> No.9534317

>>9534314
>How does this even tie into consciousness?
don't ask me, ask dennett

>> No.9534456

>>9534209
he's wrong actually. libertarian free will is correct

>> No.9534682

My biggest problem with Dennett is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and how absurd it is to think that the energy distributions on earth are random.

inbeforemuhsun

>> No.9535306

>>9534284
Nice platitude, Zhang. Does it help you feel free in your ant colony?

>> No.9535312

>>9534284
>The free will problem doesn't even exist in the East because they aren't total retards there.
You mean because they lack souls there.

>> No.9535337

>>9534456
oh cool

>> No.9536307

>>9535306
>>9535312
>insecure white bois

What's new

>> No.9536350
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9536350

>>9534456
>libertarian free will

>> No.9536704

>I see the colour red
>therefore I don't see the colour red

>> No.9536707

>>9533753
>causality exists
>I have a working brain
fin

>> No.9536819

>>9536350
yeah that's how tiny your brain is for not thinking it's true

>> No.9536824

>>9536707
causality is just a concept we impose on the world so we can more easily understand it, we cannot truly know if reality is causal

>> No.9536884
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9536884

He was right all along.

>> No.9536951
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9536951

>>9536824
CAN WE KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL?

>> No.9536954

>>9533746
someone didn't read up on their cognitive relativism but he sure looks like someone who would

>> No.9536984

>>9536824
Yeah and parallelism is definitely a meaningful and true philosophical theory

>> No.9537110

>>9536951
yeah

>> No.9537120

optical illusions aren't really illusions, they're just perceptions that are often interpreted in a way most people would consider inaccurate. the fact taht we understand them well enough to create them proves they aren't really illusions

>> No.9537143

>>9536824
Does it matter? It still behaves causally. You would have to take a leap of faith and say God (or whatever) is makig things appear to be causal for some reason.

>> No.9537166

>>9533746
>the neurons in our occipital lobe aren't to discern complex patterns normally due to our innate instinctual response to seeing complex patterns in nature as being dangerous, or the visual correction of our brain doesn't compensate for radical or unusual differentiations in shape
>"LOL, that just means like.. consciousness doesn't xD, it's not like.. bro our perception of reality isn't limited to how our brains process it, REALITY JUST ISN'T REAL"
>"If I'm looking at it it doesn't exist"
>"Electrons can feel me observing them!"
>"Free will doesn't exist bro"
>"Lol reality and will aren't processes of our biology, they're actually like, super deep and shit"

>> No.9537169
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9537169

>>9537110
How do you know?

>> No.9537171

>>9536824
>reality behaves causal, even if our perception of it isn't sound due to the physical limitation of our brain
>"lol bro actually causality isn't even real, cause our brains an shit just notice the pattern, Occam's razor is just a fucking sham bro"

>> No.9538174

>>9537143
His point is that causality is just psychological shorthand for a brain that needs to keep itself alive and exists on a given scale of existence. It often becomes unintuitive when we want to explain it. Causes are just correlations of events in space-time and even if we say there must be a mechanism, those are correlations too. I think the spatiotemporal contiguity part is even abit arbitrary other than maybe spatiotemporally contiguous events repeat more consistently. Epistemic problems come from not proving causation just from these correlations (e.g. third variables), intractaility and also naive induction.

The point is that causation is just a type of correlation. It is an intuitive one brute fact of observation and cannot be defined non-arbitrarily.

>> No.9538184

>>9538174
>The point is that causation is just a type of correlation. It is an intuitive one brute fact of observation and cannot be defined non-arbitrarily.
explain energy transfer then

>> No.9538255

is the portion of people born without free will predetermined to argue that free will doesn't exist?

>> No.9538707

>>9538184
No you explain it. What is energy? Why do particles behave?

>> No.9538728
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9538728

>>9536819
>muh NAP

>> No.9538741

>>9533746
>the brain draws, sometimes incorrect, conclusions from sensory input
>therefore, consciousness doesn't exist
???

>> No.9538749

What are the causal properties of neurons that result in consciousness according to searle?

>> No.9538902

>>9538749
Functional integration amongst internal states that have a markov blanket. Given that though, the specifics also depend on the given intero and exteroceptive inputs.

>> No.9538929
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9538929

>The looking glass is distorted

>Therefore I am the glass

[spoiler]Soul and consciousness are both unrealistic fairy tales, but you cannot prove they don't exist

>> No.9539027

>>9538929
If you are not the glass, who are you? A cartesian homunculus? Kek brainlet.

Protip: you cant prove matter or energy are a thing either.

>> No.9539089

>>9538707
Why is either of those needed for causality? We have real patterns. You explain energy transfer, which we consistently observe, without causality.

>> No.9539230

>>9539089
What exactly does causality add to energy transfer?

>> No.9539283

>>9539230
It allows it to occur. What are you even going on about at this point?

>> No.9539313
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9539313

>>9538728
>confusing metaphysical libertarian with political libertarianism

>> No.9539325

>>9538741
thats what Dennett claims

>> No.9539377

>>9538707
A>A1>A2>A3>...AN>B
A>B

>> No.9539401 [DELETED] 
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9539401

>mfw normies mistake a consciousness discussion with a free will discussion

>> No.9539409
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9539409

>mfw normies mistake a consciousness discussion for a free will discussion

>> No.9539414

>god gave us eternal souls
>but you can easily change someone's soul drastically and permanently by giving them a blood clot in their brain lol

>> No.9539729

>>9539283
My point is that you have no explanation. Its abrute observation derived by correlation. Jist the way you say it allows it to occur makes it seem like it has some independent existence. No.

Explain to me why it allows it to occur. Try for yourself. Explain to me what is causality. Maybe you will see my point.

>> No.9539732

>>9539729
See >>9539377
Explaination is not required.

>> No.9539734

>>9539732
Give me an explanation of that.

>> No.9539736

>>9539734
The pattern is real.

>> No.9539738

>>9539736
What pattern. Correlation is pretty much the definition of pattern so dont say that.

>> No.9539752

>>9539738
Now you are just being silly and are a 5 year old's manifestation of a skeptic.

>> No.9539759

>>9539752
Im seriously not. Tell me what you mean by the pattern is real.

Dude just think of how you would explain causality to someone without tautology. Its a correlation. And epistemically its intractable. Just useful.

>> No.9539766

>>9539752
Im being logical. Why dont you..

>> No.9540837

Reality is consciousness....fucking ametuers and if Consciousness didn't exist reality wouldn't without reality there is no universe... qauntum mechanics explain all this look it up learn it before arguing about dumb shit

>> No.9540886

>>9533746
qauntum realityis related toConsciousness. The brain is a physical organism that transmits electrochemical signals. These are explained by biochemistry and, ultimately, are related to the fundamental electromagnetic behaviors of molecules and atoms, which are dictated by the laws ofQuantum physics. but don't stress we are just a Mote of start dust in a sunbeam of space