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/sci/ - Science & Math

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9528782 No.9528782 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /sci/, question:

Is there any feasible way for a hypothetical alien species living on an ocean planet to become spacefaring? Assuming that they lived primarily in the water, is there a certain set of conditions for the planet that might allow for this?

>> No.9528796

>>9528782
I don't see why not, it's less likely than a land based creature but they could build suits just like we can they would just need to engineer them completely different.

>> No.9528823

No fire.

>> No.9528839

>>9528823
So? It just adds an extra step. Land-based can launch from land, water-based needs to build some land platform to launch from and then launch from that.

>> No.9528852

you would need a longer chain of freak occurrences than we had and our story is already fucking pushing it
first and foremost
>>9528823
this
I can sort of imagine some cephalopods eventually figuring out you can cook fish in the volcanic vents and that has great potential to result in them coming to the conclusion that there has to be more to life than breeding and eating, but that's still a far cry from space program
you have to understand that, not many people realize this, but we more than likely wouldn't be flying to space right now if sang Kumbaya
our space ships are literally repurposed nuclear bomb carriers

>> No.9528857

>>9528839
There's a small step between coming into existence and space travel called civilization that in all likeliness requires...fire

>> No.9528898

>>9528857
no it just requires some form of propulsion. If they learn to harness underwater vents (maybe even event some kind of "lava irrigation") and had language they could probably have everything needed to invent all the same physics we did and they'd have access to enough natural resources.

I think you're just not creative enough m8

>> No.9528930

>>9528898
>lava irrigation
...
STEAM PIPES!.. oh wait, how did they invent the pipe.

>> No.9528937

>>9528930
A seaborne intelligent species would realize that being in the sea is a limitation in some aspects and develop the technology necessary to survive on land and then do their experiments there, leading to all the normal developments you would expect. Are you literally just picturing regular fish that can also think or something?

>> No.9528946

>>9528930
they literally invent the pipe to deal with steam, or to move mud from around the vents, to literally a thousand different things that could possibly be a reason to need a tube.

>> No.9528952
File: 315 KB, 942x567, Underwater-space-cannon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9528952

>>9528823

>> No.9528953

>>9528937
What if they never leave the depths though?
Lava vents are pretty damn deep normally, they might not even know what the Sun / Surface is or if it's existence.

>>9528946
Deep sea spears, with hollowed shafts for easier thrusts.

>> No.9528963

>>9528952
that's a gun you dummy, these things have progression

>> No.9528966

>>9528782
No, something like our limbs would never develop in a submerged world you need land for limbs like ours.

>> No.9528969

>>9528823
is fire necessary?

>> No.9528972

>>9528953
Suppose if they're intelligent, then they must also be curious to some degree. Explorers? Maybe even different races of fish-people who could survive atmospheric differences and so produced a sort of genetic diversity in their communities that led to the same political domino effect whereby they produce an economy.

>> No.9528977

>>9528969
If you want metal smelting.

>> No.9528986

>>9528969
it's what made us smart enough to stop being animals
I'm dead serious

>> No.9528987

>>9528986
No the ice age gave us behavioral modernity.

>> No.9528990

>>9528966
octopussy

>> No.9529005

>>9528782
You can theoretically reach a very advanced level of mathematics while being technologically rather primitive. For example, the Mayas had a very advanced math while technologically living in the stone age. They didnt know the wheel, couldnt cast iron, etc. But they had the most precise calendar of its time on earth.

Under the sea, a smart sea-species could definetely reach a technological level similar to the Mayas, no problem. They could then advance their math to a degree that is way beyond our human capabilities. With this knowledge, maybe they could basically skip all the technological development that humans went through (stone age, bronze age, iron age, industrial age, etc.) and go directly to super highly advanced future techs. However, this way would probably take much longer to reach space faring technologies, than our human path. So imagining an underwater civilization, that exists for tens of thousands of years on a relatively primitive technological level, and then suddenly becoming the master of time and space once their math unlocked the secrets of the universe... that is kind of possible.

>> No.9529011

>>9529005
*living in the bronze age (however casting bronze is not really necessary for anything in that level of development)

>> No.9529022

>>9528987
we would be fucked without fire during ice age

>> No.9529045

>>9529022
nah we would just be confined to the equator

>> No.9529046

>>9529005
Are you guys fucking stupid? What part of LIMBS LIKE OURS DONT FORM UNDERWATER cant you understand?

>> No.9529053

>>9529045
then we wouldn't gave to deal with the cold, no?

>> No.9529057

>>9529046
>t. guy who never had a cephalopod steal food from his fridge

>> No.9529059

But is fire necessary tho?

>> No.9529062

>>9529046
So? You dont need that. An Octopus could grind a stone and construct an axe using tentacles without problems. The tentacles can grab things the same way human fingers do.

>> No.9529066

>>9529046
What part of other kinds of organisms can exist other than what we know of on planet earth don't you understand. Octupi could very well have went down a path that lead them to be human-like (in regards to being able to use tools.)

>>9529059
yes but fire doesn't have to be burnt wood it could be heat coming from sea floor vents that was the first thing we covered itt

>> No.9529068

>>9529066
But is it necessary?

>> No.9529076

>>9529066
No they cant you need fingers like ours to construct shit like us.

>> No.9529078

>>9529059
you need something to break down he food to get more energy to not spend all your waking hours eating and digesting
so that you an start worrying about thing like meaning of life, math and art

>> No.9529082

>>9529078
also I'm shitfaced
but I think I'm still getting the point across

>> No.9529086

>>9529078
Orly? But that's specific to humans. Ayys could be like anything almost. Maybe they're already efficient at digestion. Maybe they're dark matter based entities and ghosts are real.

>> No.9529087

>>9529076
I believe some kind of validation is in order

>> No.9529090

>>9529076
[citation needed]

>>9529068
fuck off already yes

>> No.9529091

>>9529086
>Orly? But that's specific to humans. Ayys could be like anything almost
like all other animals on earth who hvent's done that despite being around hundeds of millions of years longer?
I have faith in octopi BTW, but they are taking their sweet ass time

>> No.9529093

>>9529068
No, its not necessary. What would be necessary are brains large enough to be able to construct complex thoughts. You could theoretically develop the theory of relativity without knowing how to make a fire. You can also develop theories much more advanced than this. With a much more advanced science, you might also have completely new possibilities of engineering and technologies that dont need any fire at all.

If you look at human development, it was pretty slow and sluggish until we reached a certain point and suddenly it went into hyperdrive. The same could be true for an underwater species, just that the "hyperdrive" moment would come later.

It would be interesting to think about building a computer underwater though, because assumingly for super high advanced maths you are going to need computing power to help you do the calculations. However, one could assume that the underwater creatures are simply so smart that they can perform this kind of math even without assistance from computers.

>> No.9529096

>>9529091
the conditions aren't really right for them right now, although that could change in the future maybe some descendant will start travelling in packs and making tools to hunt with.

>> No.9529101

>>9529093
You do need "fire" in a sense but it doesn't have to be oxygen-fueled and so that question is irrelevant really. Anyway I think the other anon is just trolling you at this point.

>> No.9529111

>>9529101
You wouldn't even need that, either. There is a difference between science and engineering. You can know everything about the universe without being capable of practically constructing anything. For example, our science is also much more advanced than our engineering. We know wormholes are theoretically possible, but dont have a clue how to construct one. However, the higher the science is advanced, the more possibilities of engineering you usually have. So it is possible that there is a civilization that cant make a fire, but has already developed a theory of everything.

>> No.9529118

>>9529111
>You can know everything about the universe without being capable of practically constructing anything
Bold claim. I think enough people ITT illustrated already that you need fire not because it lets you construct complex machines, but because it was literally the thing that made us sapient.

>> No.9529127
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9529127

>>9529111
Okay but we're talking about them going into space m8

>> No.9529149

>>9529118
Humans figured out how to use fire over 1 million years ago. The first primitive signs of civilization started around 100.000 years ago. So I would doubt that fire was so important for our intellectual capacities.

Also note that human development was pretty sluggish up until 400 years ago. The most advanced cities 2000BC didnt look that much different from the most advanced cities 1500AD. Our development went into hyperdrive once we figured out the scientific method, and all these new sciences we quickly gathered gave us all these new possibilities to engineer things. For an underwater species, it might be somewhat similar. However their hyperdrive moment could come later, since engineering under water is more difficult, so they would probably need much more advanced sciences until they reach their hyperdrive moment.

>> No.9529155

But is it necessary tho?

>> No.9529165

>>9529149
>engineering under water is more difficult
>under water

[citation needed again]

>> No.9529169

>>9529149
>o I would doubt that fire was so important for our intellectual capacities.
it was the most important thing
cooked food has simply higher energy density and keeps you well fed longer
this isn't voodoo, this is physics

>> No.9529181

>>9529169
So? Just because humans apparently only reached critical brain mass through cooking meat it doesnt mean that is the only way its possible.

>> No.9529200

>>9529181
you are annyong
you don't get brain like ours from from sitting on your ass waiting for it to fall into your lap
there is a set of conditions to be met
we didn't became intelligent just waiting for it to happen
it's because something pushed us towards it
it's why we left rest of the great apes (let alone literally all other lifeforms) in the dust
and that shit was fire

>> No.9529209

>>9529200
just like my mixtape

>> No.9529250

>>9529200
Again: So? The human path is not the only possible path. There are many ways a brain could have grown, potentially even much larger than the human one is.

>> No.9529538

Is there some sort of driving factor that could be equivalent to fire though

>> No.9529610

If the planet is entirely ocean, they're stuck. There's nothing to burn.
Fire led, not only to working metals, but also to chemistry. Glass, electricity, magnetism, "simplified" experiments where you can neglect friction would all be out of their reach.

Just think of all the experiments you can't do underwater -- even if you have apparatus made somewhere else.

In any case, intelligence is unlikely to develop in a marine environment. It's relatively static. Conditions don't change for very long periods. So there's much less evolutionary pressure. Dolphins and orcas can do tricks but the "if only we knew their language" enthusiasm of the '60s has largely faded.

>> No.9529651

>>9529610
Cetacean intellect is due to their mammalian origins, highly intelligent marine alien lifeforms with a completely marine evolutionary origin is not likely to even happen.

>> No.9529665

>>9529250
A whale´s brain is larger than a human´s. that doesn´t mean its smarter than us.

>> No.9530537

>>9529665
This is true, and this is because there is one good reason why sea-species are likely to form big brains: Under water, vocalization is the only effective way to communicate, and for vocalization, you need a big brain. Or in other words, whale sounds is actually a quite complex language.

If you took the intelligence of dolphins and whales, and combined that with the tentacles of an octopus, you might well end up with a species that is going to become smarter and smarter and develop finer and finer tentacles. The two drivers would be the same that drove human evolution: language and tool-making are becoming increasingly complex and require an increasingly capable brain.

>>9529610
You don't need to light anything on fire to figure out, for example, genetics. As I said before, a civilization can be scientifically very advanced while using stone tools. It can also be the other way around. The romans for example had a relatively primitive science and math, but were absolutely god-tier engineers and architects. A sea-species could have a science much more advanced that ours, while still living in the stone age. But at a certain point, they could unlock some scientific truths that allow them to build future techs underwater in ways that we can't really imagine.

>> No.9530616

I think it would be difficult because something they would invariably need is the mining and forging of minerals to use in construction, and they would probably need this before leaving the water.

But then it depends on the assumptions made about this aquatic creature. It may be able to survive on land but the natural habitat is in water.

In any event, at some point they would need fire.

>> No.9530767

>>9530616
Humans constructed the pyramids and the tower of Babel with stone and simple tools.

Also note that constructing large structures under water is easier, because things dont weight so much there and can easier be transported and constructed with. And if you need to repair something on the roof, you simply swim up, there is no need to construct stairs or any such things. Plus, unlike on land, the higher you go, the easier it will be to build, because the pressure of water gets less and less. So creating mega structures larger than anything on earth might be completely possible without and sophisticated technologies. Just by putting stone over stone (more or less).

Plus, if we assume that the sea aliens have tentacles, then you could actually build much better and quicker with them, than with human arms and fingers, because you would have more of them, you could grab things tighter, reach further, etc. Their tools and buildings would probably look much different from ours.

If they need a water-tight space to make experiments in, that can be done. They could also achieve an airtight space under water, e.g. a vacuum chamber.

All in all, there is no reason to assume a civilization cant develop under water.

>> No.9530786

>>9530767
I have never read anything more insane.

Are... are you OK anon?

>> No.9530791
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9530791

>>9530767
>Humans constructed the pyramids and the tower of Babel with stone and simple tools.

>> No.9530793
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9530793

>>9530767
>What if they had tentacles dood then 10x build speed ez advanced civ

>> No.9530814

>>9530767
This is so stupid. Nothing underwater will ever make civilization because the one underlying cause of civilization being agriculture is impossible in the ocean. They will remain tribal predators forever.

>> No.9530815

>>9530767
Yeah, but to become a space faring species they'll probably need metals.
Bricks won't take you into space. Carved rock won't take you into space. You need to make the transition from working with raw materials to refining things.

So while they could definitely create mega structures under water that may not be able to advance them technologically to space.
Sure, the civilization may develop, but that isn't the end goal we are searching for.

>> No.9530836

I mean you need a wild imagination and a very educated mind to be able to figure this out anons

>> No.9530845

What's the big deal about lacking fire? As if not having the ability to do shitty boring camping outside is somehow detrimental to advanced civilizations.
I haven't seen actual fire for years yet I'm surrounded by technology.

>> No.9530860
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9530860

>implying alien oceans would necessarily have a similar chemical composition or even a similar atmosphere
I mean if we look at how lucky we are to exist on Earth, if aliens evolved to intelligence on other planets there might be some insanely lucky bullshit they have like geysers that would spew a plane or ship to the upper atmosphere, or giant watertight caves below the surface.

>> No.9530864
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9530864

>>9530845
You're an idiot.
>>9530860
True, this would be a way to get stuff into orbit on the cheap. If Titan can do it, I don't see why other places couldn't.

>> No.9530868

>>9530786
>>9530791
>>9530793
You guys just lack fantasy. I am envisioning 5 metre tall octopusses who are grinding a dozen stones AT THE SAME TIME. One octopus could potentially have the labour force of 10-20 humans.

>>9530814
A plancton-based economy could well sustain a permanently settled civilization. Plancton farms are the basic diet, that gets complemented by algae and protein-rich sea animals, that are their livestock. Fish are their chicken, dolphins are their cows, sharks are their horses. Their cuisine would be much more protein-rich, than ours.

>>9530815
You can easily create air-filled/water-less chambers under water. Just build it strong enough to sustain the water pressure, but that is possible. In those chambers they could to all metallurgy that is needed. However, I doubt you actually would need it outside of experiments.

>> No.9530880

>>9529091
Octopi are fucking cool, from what I remember though their problem is, that they are left alone from birth so every generation has to start figuring stuff out from scratch.
I suck at Zoology, are there examples of a species like this becoming social over time?

>> No.9530892

Imagine one day we find at the bottom of the sea giant octopi with 10kg brains and 20m long tentacles who are actually much more advanced than us, because their brains allow them to perceive higher dimension that we can't perceive, let alone travel through or manipulate.

>> No.9530894

>>9530864
Titan can do it because it has close to zero gravity. Plus I doubt those geysers could actually lift a heavy object to space.

>> No.9530896

>>9530880
Octopi are amazing, basically the closes analogy to an intelligent alien species evolving in a very different environment, considering our nearest ancestor is millions and millions of years ago. The way their brain is seperated into the tentacles that each have their own subconscious processing is incredibly interesting.

>> No.9530957

>>9530894
No, but it's more efficient. They have thermal vents, maybe they're life forms based on that sort of environment.

>> No.9530958

>>9528782
Yes, if the gravity is very low. With a very low gravity, you could reach space pretty easily. Even a powerful trebuchet is enough to shoot you into space, since most likely there would also be no atmosphere. An atmosphere would also not really be needed, because a few metres of ocean water do all the shielding that is needed.

So on a small planet in the habitable zone of its star, with the whole surface covered in liquid water, such creatures might evolve. The only question is, where is all the energy to feed a large biosphere coming from? The water does not only shield radiation, but also the sunlight. A few dozen metres below the surface it would be almost completely dark. So there would only be very limited sunlight life forms could use as an energy source. So the planet would have to have an internal energy source. However, we already settled that the planet is really small, and small planets tend to have little internal energy. However, there might still be planets (or moons) that are producing enough heat internally despite being very small. Those are the candidates for such a civilization. There might even be such planets or moons that produce enough energy to keep all the water liquid, despite it lying outside of the habitable zone of its star. In such planets, there is definetely enough internal heat to feed a large, diverse biosphere.

This species would have two big advantages: 1. It can reach space incredibely easily 2. It can live there long-term without many problems, since they are used to 0 gravity. So that civilization would be the perfect space farers.

Finding that combination on a landlocked civilization seems much more implausible. Small planets with weak gravity will have no atmosphere, and the development of a large animal kingdom on a surface like that seems incredibely unlikely.

>> No.9530967

>>9530868
Its never gonna happen, civilization will only naturally occur on land dumbass.

>> No.9530975

>>9530896
Octos are invertebrates there is no "you" in an octopus its a synchronized cluster of cells like all invertebrates. You think there is a "you" because octos have faces but there isnt. Only lifeforms with a centralized nervous system have a "you". The octo's head is nothing more than visual processing unit.

>> No.9531059
File: 11 KB, 275x183, boat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9531059

>>9530868
>However, I doubt you actually would need it outside of experiments.
Making metals would be quite useful to build other tools.
But I think something a lot easier than pressurized chambers, they could just build boats and operate them from under the water.
The same thing we do, just in the opposite direction.

>> No.9531243

>>9531059
Makes me think, how much would a hypothetical species know about orbital mechanics? I imagine if they somehow came around to wanting to become spacefaring they'd already have had some experience travelling above water, given that it would be the only way to get a really good look at the sky and beyond, but would they reach a comparable level of knowledge to us, given that they probably wouldn't be launching any satellites or missiles?

>> No.9531256

>>9531243

Since you need things like high level metal working, glass making and the like to make even a basic telescope, thier knowledge of space would be pretty limited.

>> No.9531264

A planet with low gravity and thus a low escape velocity would help quite a bit.

>> No.9531294

>>9531256
Only a basic understanding of stars and possibly planets then? I imagine that's about the extent of what you could do with simple stargazing and no telescopes.

>> No.9531697

One thing I think the artist/spec bio geek Nemo Ramjet did with a water species was that the species in question were really into bioengineering. So they had bred, over the centuries, various mollusks into giant buildings and domiciles. All of their tools were bioengineered sealife too. Made sense to me. I think that species has prehensile tongues as well, which I could see evolving from a dolphin-like species.

Funny thing though, I could honestly see a dolphin's penis evolving into a manipulator organ before their tongues. Those things are basically prehensile anyway.

>> No.9531703

>>9531697
*Bred, over hundreds of thousands of years

>> No.9531819

>>9528782

Living in an atmosphere and living in an ocean are basically the same thing.

>> No.9532404

>>9529169
So beings without fire just need to eat more and/or be larger.

How hard would it be for an aquatic species to create dry habitats that they could spend SOME time in? They'd then discover fire, eventually.

>> No.9532819

>>9530868
The biggest problem with those air filled, empty chambers under the sea is pumping out the water.
They need to create some kind of pump and valves using nothing but raw materials.

I see a couple of possibilities there but it depends on the biology creatures on this world and their own understanding of biology and physics.

In the end there are too many undefined variables in the problem. A lot changes between if they are mammalian or not, vertebrate or not, if they have similar appendages, similar gravity, if they have access to land, if they (can) use that land, etc

>> No.9532821

>>9532404
Fire is also used in refining materials.

>> No.9533219
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9533219

>>9532819
>if they (can) use that land
With a bit of ingenuity why not?
What are fishing rods or oars if not tools to operate in water?
And most cities were built alongside rivers to have access to water.
They could do the same, build their stuff near the shoreline, develop tools to use the nearby atmosphere.
Just because you don't breath air doesn't mean you can't use it.
pic somewhat related

>> No.9533263

>>9530880
Could they be taught from birth?

>> No.9533266

>>9529209
Kej'd :D

>> No.9533275

>>9530975 I guess this kind of answers my question
>>9533263 here

>> No.9533284

>>9532404
So then they evolve into land species or amphimbians, and thus not the the original question of OP

>> No.9533324
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9533324

You air breathers are really full of prejudice.
Fuck you guys and your air.

>> No.9533984

bump

>> No.9533998

>>9530958
>low gravity
Meaning no atmosphere comparable to ours, meaning the liquid gets frozen or boiled away meaning no civilization.

>> No.9533999

>>9528823
If we can fire in space then we can fire in water.

Besides, stage 1 can initially use water to launch into the air before stage 2 starts and uses fire.

>> No.9534003

>>9528986
No, being smart enough to use fire is what allowed us to increase standard of living so we had more time to get smarter. Other animals have experienced fire without turning intelligent. We had the capacity for intelligence before we used fire, fire just gave us the circumstance to exploit our capacity to learn.

>> No.9534544

>>9533284
So because we CAN put people underwater or in outer space, we're evolving into non-land mammals?

>> No.9534559

>>9534544
Also, what about crabs? They're aquatic animals that can live out of water. They could live on an ocean planet, and could work in 'dry' habitats if they could construct them.

>> No.9534582

>>9533324
Why you gotta be so rude man

Hey, at least we got biomes and shit. Everything you guys got is just sand and water whilst we have lush jungles, arid deserts, beautiful forests, and tropical paradises. We also got way cooler animals than y’all.
Mammals > Fish
Have fun sitting in the ocean whilst we explore the galaxy.

>> No.9534628

>>9534544
I misread/misinterpreted the initial post I replied to
I was tired
I missed the part when it said spend some time, not actually evolve

>> No.9536497

>>9528953
100% brainlet, we live on the surface and have been to the marianas trench, intelligent creatures are curious

>> No.9536502

>>9528782
no hands

>> No.9536998

>>9536502
nigga what is a tentacle

>> No.9537542

>>9528782
Who fucking knows m8. Aliens could function in lotsa ways.

>> No.9537550

>>9529005
Whales might be people and we would never know. Aliens will be even more difficult to understand.

>> No.9537728

>>9528782
This has actually been proposed as a solution to the fermi paradox. Supposedly water worlds are more common than our earth.

>> No.9537947

>>9537728
Really? I'd buy that they're more common but I don't know about it being a Fermi paradox solution.

>> No.9538138

>>9537947
Air breathers prejudice.
There are probably aquatic anons on some water planet right now dissing on their chans about the possibility for air breathers to be developed.

>> No.9538527

>>9538138
I can see the posts already:

>no tentacles

>> No.9538609

>>9528852
You don't know that. You don't know how much our story is already fucking pushing it. Your frame of reference is exactly one, us.

>> No.9538612

>>9528986
You are not an animal? What are you then?

>> No.9538617

Yes,
Think about it: How do submarine launched missiles work?

>> No.9539042

>>9538617
For starters, they aren't built underwater
Hard to do chemistry when you're submerged in the most universal solvent in the universe

>> No.9539064

>>9528782
Depends how much water and pressure they need to function. A space ship filled with water would be heavy af.

>> No.9540717

>>9539064
It's just a better incentive to build a BFR.

>> No.9540746

ORGANIC SPACE SHIPS

>> No.9540749

>>9537728
The real solution to the Fermi paradox is that contact has been made and the “paradox” is moot.

>> No.9541687

>>9540749
this tbqhf

>> No.9543368

Life is energy in our universe we are as one just different manifests at times

>> No.9543442

>>9528823
/thread