Why do you guys hate CS majors so much. I was a CS major but I don't think I'm that big of a brainlet, also I make way more money than you CS love thread

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Anonymous Sat Jan 20 21:41:11 2018 No.9451929 [Reply] [Original]

Why do you guys hate CS majors so much. I was a CS major but I don't think I'm that big of a brainlet, also I make way more money than you

CS love thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 21:44:33 2018 No.9451942 I was surprised how easy mergesort is to implement. I definitely appreciate the insights CS people have to offer.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 21:59:28 2018 No.9451984 File: 14 KB, 306x306, dhmis_4_analysis_by_austindr-d8onn8w.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9451929 >im a very clevery guy >count to a 50 in the blink of my eye Idk, sounds pretty legit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:17:08 2018 No.9452038 >>9451929 >Why do you guys hate CS majors so much A quarter of /sci/ did CS in the worst colleges, dropped out because the courses were shit and blamed CS. The rest fell for the former's meme.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:19:39 2018 No.9452044 >>9451929 >also I make way more money than you Pretty big implication there bud when you got medfags on this board too.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:23:39 2018 No.9452053

>>9452044
Medfags who took 12 years of school and training before they were even allowed to start their job. All I needed was a Bachelor's. Also good luck paying off your med school student loans in the next few decades. All of my earnings are pure profit for investment.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:33:32 2018 No.9452070
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>>9451929
We have had this same thread over and over. It's because you barely learn anything in watered down slow moving courses that are taught at the high school level. Jobs have no bearing on your course work; citing them is a non sequitur.

I would go on into detail but most CS majors learn rhetoric from Richard Dawkins so you're just going to ignore any arguments that don't confirm your biases, respond with unoriginal insults, and then circle jerk your own side. So >>>/g/b2 >>>/reddit/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:37:29 2018 No.9452082 >>9452070 This is just not true, maybe you're including a ton of really shitty schools and community colleges. I went to a normal state school and my program was great and highly related to jobs. I've yet to see evidence that CS is so bad.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:39:42 2018 No.9452086
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>>9452038
> /sci/ did CS in the worst colleges

Not true, check the archives and see all the times /sci/ dissected the CS curricula of top schools and shown them to be a fucking joke.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:43:11 2018 No.9452095 >>9452086 If it's so easy go do it and get hired by a top company right out of school Oh, wait, you can't, because you're a brainlet and it's not easy

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:43:43 2018 No.9452097

>>9452053
12 years of training doing what we were doing anyway. I paid my way through school by working and getting tuition reimbursement from the hospital I now work at. I literally almost graduated debt free. The only "downside" to this is that I had not sign a contract stating I'll work at this hospital for 20 years (15 more). It was the hospital I did my residency at, so literally I just received my degree, received a way raise and continued doong what I was doing every day anyway. It's not like my life was on standstill while I was in school. I was still working and progressing. Fact of the matter is, you don't make more money than me. Plus, there's qt nurses running around in scrubs and nothing makes women wet like introducing yourself as Dr.(Last name). Sorry code monkey.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:45:23 2018 No.9452100 >>9452097 Machine learning based diagnoses will make you obsolete, and the steady hand of AI guided surgery machines will make you organic units a health hazard to patients. Enjoy it while it lasts

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:48:28 2018 No.9452104
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>>9452082
>my program was great and highly related to jobs

You got a trade school degree at university prices. CS courses shouldn't be "highly related to jobs".

Post the curriculum. From the sounds of it, I bet you had no advanced math courses and several courses on programming, OOP, webdev, phonedev, gamedev, system programmign, database, and SE.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:48:52 2018 No.9452105 File: 5 KB, 477x539, 63470980.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9451929 They hate us cause they ain't us. They wish they could play with Integer rings all day long, but they have to work with stinky Reals.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:51:08 2018 No.9452109

>>9452104
You're an idiot, those joke courses like OOP, webdev, phonedev and stuff are not related to jobs. My courses were mainly data structures and algorithms and theoretical CS related which is what you need to get good jobs.

There's a really massive dichotomy here between shitty CS jobs and good ones. Shitty ones require those topics you listed. Good ones don't, they require more actual CS knowledge.

And what courses do you consider advanced math for CS?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:51:46 2018 No.9452111 >>9452095 >you find something easy that I find hard >you must be a brainlet! Why must the meme be true every fucking time.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:54:01 2018 No.9452117

>>9452111
Then why the fuck don't you go do it? An abstract sense of intellectual duty to stay true to your math or mechanical engineering roots despite them paying significantly less than you will make after a good CS program? Give me a break - /sci/ is too degenerate to hold up concepts like that

If it's so easy just go do it and make way more money than you do right now

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:54:40 2018 No.9452118 >>9452109 >My courses were mainly data structures and algorithms This is a freshman level course. >theoretical CS Sisper is also freshman level.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:56:04 2018 No.9452120

>>9452104
This diagram is less than half of a typical CS undergrad. Just as an example, tt has theory of computation as an endpoint of sorts, where in modern curricula it's more of an end-of-first-year start-of-second-year level course.

To be fair, it also has a number of courses that are no longer as relevant today as they were in 1968. Analog computing comes to mind.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:56:52 2018 No.9452121 >>9452104 >no advanced math courses Yeah, I'm going to study complex analysis -aka turbo autism III - just because /sci/ said I should. I know it is worthless outside schizo department, but that anon really dared me to.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:57:02 2018 No.9452123

>>9452111
>>9452117
Also I didn't find it hard I found it easy and fun. So it's even more paradoxical that you people don't do it. The idea that it's for brainlets yet simultaneously the job market can't hire enough good people because they're all shit, resulting in very high wages compared to every other engineering discipline is absurd

>>9452118
Yeah DS/Algo is definitely just "one course" not a group of related courses anon.

Show me one school where sipser is a freshmen level course anon

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 22:59:44 2018 No.9452130 >>9452117 >MONEY MONEY MONEY >JOBS JOBS JOBS >You must be retarded if that's not all you care about in life Sad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:01:00 2018 No.9452135 Is CS even worth doing ? Idk can't you just graduate in math and learn programming on your own ?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:02:31 2018 No.9452138 >>9452135 >learn programming Fuck off, we're full

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:02:54 2018 No.9452140

>>9452130
I never said it's all I care about in life. I love CS and think it's fun. I'm showing the fact that there are tons of jobs for it and that it pays significantly more money than all traditional engineering jobs, as an explanation for why the argument that it's an easy shit tier degree that you have to be a brainlet to bother getting, doesn't make sense.

If it's so easy and brainlets can do it then the market would reach an equilibrium with too many people doing it, because it's so easy and brainlet level, and wages would fall below those of other supposedly superior STEM majors. But you don't see that happen.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:04:35 2018 No.9452142

>>9452100
If you have never worked in a medical laboratory your opinion is actually invalid. There are too many human elements to eliminate them completely. We get samples from other nations and they have to be reviewed by a pathologist. If a result comes up with an out of range value, it needs to be reviewed. If a value comes up critical, it needs to be called out to the care provider for the patient. There are things a machine will not be able to do, and someone with a bachelor's in CS doing Java work for eBay's website is not going to replace me. Sorry brutha.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:04:41 2018 No.9452143

>>9452135
>You will end up being a really shitty programmer. Sure, you can, but you will not be a good software engineer most likely unless you still do a full CS Bachelor's curriculum yourself, along with tons of self study outside the major.

I work people who work with PhD Physicists who now work as Data Scientists and they're retards who can't do shit when it comes to programming because they're not programmers. Their code is shit and they need baby level handholding to write good code.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:11:59 2018 No.9452161

>>9452121
>doesn't know about analytic combinatorics and its use in the analysis of algorithms
Top brainlet.

>>9452123
>Also I didn't find it hard I found it easy
Then we agree that it isn't challenging.

>So it's even more paradoxical that you people don't do it.
Where did anyone ever say that? All /sci/ ever says is to no study CS; not to never get software jobs. Stop making strawmen.

>job market can't hire enough good people because they're all shit, resulting in very high wages compared to every other engineering discipline is absurd
Half the software jobs go to people WITHOUT cs degrees. Many STEM majors DO get software jobs.

>Yeah DS/Algo is definitely just "one course" not a group of related courses anon.
No, DS&A is one course (though I've seen it split up into multiple at shitty university) followed by another easy Algorithm Analysis course based on CLRS.

>Show me one school where sipser is a freshmen level course anon
All you need is the most basic of basic proof skills to follow it. High schoolers wouldn't find it difficult.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:13:01 2018 No.9452162

>>9451929
A couple reasons from personal experience (cs minor to accompany math+phys double major)

>Probably 60% of the class were sleepwalking through the courses, didnt care about anything other than their grades and are satisfied to go onto codemonkey life
>At least 20% of the classes were "CS bros" Super cocky MRA types thinking theyre hot shit and superior to everyone (particularly women) because they passed intro object oriented programming
>Another 20% were gamers who never studied but complained about how difficult the classes were and complained about classes involving anything more than trivial syntax
>muh "im gunna create an app and become a millionaire after sleepwalking through my degree" meme

Although my code is always a fucking mess so I cant criticize others too much. Im not an organized person and it shows in my code

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:13:06 2018 No.9452163 File: 96 KB, 650x369, CS.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9452135 >can't you just graduate in math and learn programming on your own Absolutely. Many employers greatly prefer people of that background.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:17:02 2018 No.9452170 >>9452143 >Physics PhDs >Transfer to data science You work with a bunch of sellouts

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:17:37 2018 No.9452171 >>9452143 >anecdote of a guy that never learned programming stating that he never learned programming So insightful.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:17:47 2018 No.9452175

>>9452161
>Then we agree that it isn't challenging.
Or it could mean that I'm smart, but I won't make that claim

>>9452161
>Where did anyone ever say that? All /sci/ ever says is to no study CS; not to never get software jobs. Stop making strawmen.
You have to study it to get software jobs, whether it's at a school or not

>>9452161
>Half the software jobs go to people WITHOUT cs degrees. Many STEM majors DO get software jobs.
And they're often shit unless they study supplementary CS material or have a lot of experience to make up for their lack of CS knowledge

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:18:50 2018 No.9452178 >>9452171 How is that an ""anecdote of a guy that never learned programming stating that he never learned programming""? Green meme arrows don't make you right

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:22:35 2018 No.9452183 File: 29 KB, 778x651, 1515172778430.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9451929 Undergrads on here actually think you can get a job in software engineering without a CS degree. I especially feel bad for engiecucks. Sad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:34:46 2018 No.9452205 >>9452170 The 99.9% of jobless PhDs need to make money somehow. Being a postdoc your whole life sucks.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:42:35 2018 No.9452220

>>9451929
Intro to programming courses are easy, just like how first year math courses or in general, first year courses tend to be easy. At my undergrad school, some of the hardest courses you could take in the CS/Math department were theoretical computer science courses (compilers, programming languages, theory of computing) which stopped most of the CS students from graduating.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:45:35 2018 No.9452221
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>>9452175
>And they're often shit unless they study supplementary CS material or have a lot of experience to make up for their lack of CS knowledge
Duh. You're not saying anything not obvious.

>>9452178
Physics majors don't take programming. To program they have to learn. That PhD clearly just looked up a list of instructions and put no more time into it. It doesn't mean that PhDs are incapable of learning CS or find it hard; they just never put the time in it.

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:48:10 2018 No.9452223
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>>9452140
>If it's so easy and brainlets can do it then the market would reach an equilibrium with too many people doing it, because it's so easy and brainlet level, and wages would fall below those of other supposedly superior STEM majors. But you don't see that happen.

Have you been living under a rock? That's literally what is currently happening. The bubble is going to pop in a few years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:49:29 2018 No.9452224 >>9452086 >"/sci/ dissected the CS curricula of top schools" >image covers a third of the average college's freshman curriculum at best Argument dismissed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:49:39 2018 No.9452225 >>9452100 >t. retard with no real experience in ML

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:49:47 2018 No.9452226

>>9451929
Because they teach you a bunch of useless shit which you won’t apply unless you do research or go into scientific computing (CS major here doing computational physics, friends went into software engineering and web dev and are competing with people who have degrees in math and physics kek)

Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:50:08 2018 No.9452227

>>9452223
People have been saying that for many years but even now companies have a hard time hiring good people. There aren't enough good software engineers to hire, just a lot of shitty ones

The market for shit ones will pop, the market for good ones will only grow from here on out as the level of abstraction and applications we have grows further each day

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:52:23 2018 No.9452231 >>9452224 >reading comprehension

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:53:25 2018 No.9452234 >>9452227 >implying companies can tell who is or is not shit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:56:10 2018 No.9452240 >>9452183 >>Undergrads on here actually think you can get a job in software engineering without a CS degree >too dumb to google and find out it's true Definitely a CS major.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:56:22 2018 No.9452241 >>9452231 Elaborate. I know in advance that if I search the archives, I'll find nothing but this very image and memes that copy it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 20 23:57:15 2018 No.9452244 >>9452241 They weren't referring to the image dumbass.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:01:09 2018 No.9452247 >>9452244 But they were saying the same bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:22:59 2018 No.9452278 >>9452240 It isn't. You're clearly an undergrad.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:24:00 2018 No.9452280

>>9452120
>This diagram is less than half of a typical CS undergrad

Some me a CS school that has 3 numerical analysis courses, 2 analysis courses, an abstract algebra course, 2 probability and statistics courses, and separate dedicated courses on formal languages and computability/recursion theory respectively.

>hurr durr, we had one survey so we know it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:26:54 2018 No.9452286 >>9452278 Many software developers at top places are mathematicians and physicists, jackass

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:27:20 2018 No.9452290 File: 37 KB, 740x263, 2018.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9452247 Everything the image says is true. CS majors are oblivious of their relation to STEM and their shitty knowledge of their own field.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:29:33 2018 No.9452292 >>9452278 It's true for two reasons: • half of software engineering is webdev; • you don't need a CS degree to program a graph density calculator in MATLAB, and social science majors think that's elite programming.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:31:18 2018 No.9452294 >>9452226 can you recommend what undergrad cs classes are needed for computational physics? I have cs1&2, data structures, algorithms and parallel processing planned to take. any others?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:34:13 2018 No.9452299 >>9452290 >Everything the image says is true. It's not. Was there, everything the image says is the most trivial part of freshman CS.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:41:30 2018 No.9452307 >>9452104 my CS department allows advanced math courses as CS electives if you want. I did advanced probability and it helped with understanding machine learning. I can advanced statistics courses instead as well t.graduate CS student

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:45:18 2018 No.9452309 >>9452135 university certifies you in the classes you took(tests), which many employers like or, you can write your code and upload to github but they are going to give a tougher interview, probably

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:46:29 2018 No.9452312

Here is a top school for CS:
>https://www.csd.cs.cmu.edu/academics/undergraduate/requirements
>The following computer science courses are required:
>15-122: Principles of Imperative Computation
>15-150: Principles of Functional Programming
>15-210: Parallel and Sequential Data Structures and Algorithms
>15-213: Introduction to Computer Systems
>15-251: Great Theoretical Ideas in Computer Science
>15-451: Algorithm Design and Analysis

>Algorithms & Complexity Elective (choose one)
>>15-453: Formal Languages, Automata, and Computability
>>21-301: Combinatorics
>>21-484: Graph Theory

>Applications Elective (choose one)
>>15-415: Database Applications
>>15-313: Foundations of Software Engineering
>>05-391: Designing Human-Centered Software

>Logics & Languages Elective (choose one)
>>15-424: Foundations of Cyber-Physical Systems
>>21-300: Basic Logic

>Software Systems Elective (choose one)
>>15-418: Parallel Computer Architecture and Programming
>>15-440: Distributed Systems
>>15-441: Computer Networks

>Mathematics & Probability
>Five mathematics courses are required.
>21-120: Differential and Integral Calculus
>21-122: Integration and Approximation
>15-151: Mathematical Foundations for Computer Science (if not offered, substitute 21-127: Concepts of Mathematics)
>One of the following Linear Algebra courses: 21-241: Matrices and Linear Transformations; 21-242: Matrix Theory
>One of the following Probability courses: 15-359: Probability and Computing; 21-325: Probability; 36-217: Probability Theory and Random Processes; 36-225: Introduction to Probability Theory

You can basically avoid all the hard courses.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:48:39 2018 No.9452315 >>9452299 What's your idea of advanced math in CS?

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:49:22 2018 No.9452317

a CS degree may as well be a generic liberal arts degree or a general studies degree. you can do pretty much anything you want with it. i have friends from undergrad working as web developers using basically nothing from their degree, working at investment houses doing quant shit, teaching high school math, doing IT and computer plumbing, one is a manager at a fucking warehouse. i'm in a research masters program for polisci now (did a combined masters in cs)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 00:50:08 2018 No.9452320 >>9452294 >cs1&2 >2 programming classes before data structure Your school is shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:04:28 2018 No.9452341 >>9452320 every program has 2 intro programming courses, edgelord. go look at carnegie melons curriculum. >fundamentals of programming >principals of functional programming

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:06:30 2018 No.9452344

>>9452315
For CS as a whole, at least one year of math, a bit of physics (mechanics and electronics), numerical analysis, language theory, computer architecture, OOP and FP, λ-calculus, computability, machine learning, databases, parallelizing (including proofs of concurrent algorithms which is my favorite brainlet filter so far), compiler design, type theory, game theory, low-level programming (i.e. assembly and system calls) and networking. You have to be severely delusional to think all that is as easy as merge sort.

Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:07:56 2018 No.9452349

Fun story
>go to a week of cs1
>entire class can be done outside of classtime
>no tests at all except final
>dont go a single day the rest of semester
>have almost 100%
>show up for the final
>argue with prof (who is actually a grad student) for 20min that im in the class, he almost doesnt let me take it. thought i was sitting in for someone else
fun times

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:13:40 2018 No.9452362 >tfw programming 1 and 2 are taught in java >tfw there is an unironic class on windows programming is my school shit?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:15:47 2018 No.9452364 >>9452362 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:25:59 2018 No.9452371 >>9452053 >All I needed was a Bachelor's You don't even need that.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:27:26 2018 No.9452373
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>>9452362
If you have more than one class on intro programming, it's shit.
If you have dedicated classes to OOP, web dev, or GUIs; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Computer Architecture, Operating System Theory, and Compilers; it's shit
If you're not required to take Calculus, Linear Algebra, Proofs, (Calculus based) Probability, (Calculus based) Statistics, Combinatorics & Graph Theory, or took watered down versions in the CS department; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Programming Paradigms, Type and Programming Language Theory, Formal Languages & Automata, Computability Theory, and Complexity Theory; it's shit.
If you're don't at least do one of Networking, Databases, or Distributed Computing; it's shit.
If you don't have a capstone project to graduate, it's shit.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:35:20 2018 No.9452379

>>9452344
>language theory
muh pumping lemma
>computability
muh while(halts(this)){}
>computer architecture, OOP and FP
>low-level programming (i.e. assembly and system calls) and networking
That isn't math by any stretch
>game theory
What kind? And post proof that this isn't an elective.

>Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

Thank you for proving my point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:47:03 2018 No.9452386 >>9451929 >I make way more money than you You're a prostitute.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 01:53:30 2018 No.9452390 >>9452379 >>computability >muh while(halts(this)){} Thank YOU for proving MY point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 02:14:16 2018 No.9452407 /sci/'s continuing hate on CS is one of the worst cases of pride in ignorance I've ever seen. t. mathematician

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 02:19:13 2018 No.9452411 File: 1.79 MB, 2738x1749, cs discrete math.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9452407 >not know that CS majors grossly exaggerate the amount of math they study.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 02:26:57 2018 No.9452420

>>9452411
They don't claim to take tons of math, and that's like one freshmen level course. Why would they study math major style math when it's literally useless for CS? They typically take Calc 3, Probability, Discrete Math, Linear Algebra, Physics 1 and sometimes 2, and sometimes Differential Equations. Not amazing math going on there but there's no claim that there is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 02:53:29 2018 No.9452451 >>9452420 It may not be amazing math, but the meme is that it's 10th grade-level. Besides, once you know calc 1, you literally can pick up any book and go arbitrarily further i.e. what physics majors claim they can do about CS.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 03:37:45 2018 No.9452483 File: 5 KB, 250x203, meesa brainlet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9452373 >capstone project >not thesis t. shit school

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 03:53:25 2018 No.9452498

>caring about what a few contrarian autists think on an japanese terriyaki forum
No1 claims that it's the most hardcore degree out there, but the possibilities and application of CS are great. Most of these retards probably aren't even in stem, are just memeing around, or are bitter virgins that their autism and lack of character can't land them a job after earning the illustrious degree of engineering (lol).

Btw why don't you go out there and tell your uni the cs curriculum is shit. I mean if you really value science that much, why not actually do something about it? Use that galaxy brain of yours.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 03:57:08 2018 No.9452502 >>9452498 btw any of you galaxy brains want to provide an actually good cs curriculum for me pls?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 04:24:50 2018 No.9452519 >>9452362 >>tfw there is an unironic class on windows programming Required?

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 04:49:25 2018 No.9452545

Holy shit this thread is filled with insecure idiots.
How about studying something you enjoy instead of waving math dicks.

So what if we get watered down calculus? I compared my discrete math courses to my mech eng friend, ours were much more advanced than his.

Why wouldn't CS curricula be optimised for CS? A bachelor program is only 3 years here, there are choices and trade-offs to be made. Maybe that's all the calculus we need.

And there is nothing that stops someone from learning more in their free time, which is something I certainly plan to do. Simply because I'm interested in it.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 06:18:18 2018 No.9452600

>>9452390
Your point was that CS curricula isnt easy and then proceeded to cap out at "some of calc 2" and you wonder why everyone thinks CS is a meme degree. Every actual computer scientist I know has their phd in maths or double majored in math. And when asked about the state of CS curricula they all agree it is generally a trainwreck which needs an overhaul of formalism and rigor.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 06:21:34 2018 No.9452602 File: 636 KB, 862x606, He.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9451929 >the cs monkeys are pretending to know what they're talking about again

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 06:24:21 2018 No.9452601

>>9452545
>maybe thats all the calculus we need
You arent attending a trade school to perform a certain task, ostensibly you are supposed to become educated in the theory of computation. To properly do that would require an extensive mathematical education.

There wasnt an "optimized" calc class when I was in my undergrad for physics, why would there be for CS or engineering?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:05:54 2018 No.9452615 >>9452601 You're clearly missing my point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:09:06 2018 No.9452619 >>9452545 >I compared my discrete math courses to my mech eng friend, ours were much more advanced than his. Post evidence or it didn't happen.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:18:47 2018 No.9452628

>>9452615
Your point is as I understand it: you dont think CS necessarily requires the same mathematical rigor as other math heavy fields, supported by your experience seeing mechE curriculum which was less advanced than your own. Your thought is that it is mitigated by the fact that anyone can go and learn more at their leisure.

I agree in principle, but to my mind your stance has two major issues. 1 - people are useless twats who wont go learn on their own initiative. 2 - Calculus is fundamental to the entirety of modern mathematics, I really cant think of a valid reason why every STEM student doesnt take calc 1-3.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:19:20 2018 No.9452630

>>9452344
>Now for the math, you have almost the whole of calc I and parts of calc II, arithmetic, combinatorics, probability theory, formal logic and linear algebra.

No analysis,no algebra, only baby no proof linear algebra.

Simple CS don't had any formal math education.
Simple read baby Rudin or algebra artin Michael.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:20:45 2018 No.9452631 >>9451929 test

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:32:03 2018 No.9452640

>>9452619
We saw the same things.
But we went more in depth. It's the simple consequence of them having only one discrete math course while we had 2.

>>9452628
>you don't think CS necessarily requires the same mathematical rigor as other math heavy fields
No, I'm all for mathematical rigor. What I mean is that CS simply doesn't require as much calculus, and given there are only 3 years choices have to be made as to what can be taught to students.
That's why for example we get 2 discrete math courses compared to most engineers (EE and CE also get 2), mech engineers just need it less than EE and CE engineers or CS.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 07:57:57 2018 No.9452656

>>9452600
>CS curricula isnt easy
I didn't say it wasn't "easy," I said it was much harder than merge sort.

>cap out at "some of calc 2"
Nice strawman, dummy. BTW just checked what calc 2 and 3 cover, it actually covers all of calc 2 and some of calc 3.

>you wonder why everyone thinks CS is a meme degree
Oh I don't wonder anything. I know why memesters would call a degree that can get them a job but won't make them feel like the next Einstein a meme degree.

>Every actual computer scientist I know has their phd in maths or double majored in math.
Makes no fucking sense. Not only are you appealing to anecdotes, but since you consider all CS to be a joke, you're actually saying everyone you know who is doing this joke of a job has a Ph.D. in math.

>they all agree it is generally a trainwreck which needs an overhaul of formalism and rigor
Shit school graduates. Where I study, we are rigorous. Not as much as where I studied before doing CS, but more than math majors in Burgerstan that's for sure.

>>9452601
>There wasnt an "optimized" calc class when I was in my undergrad for physics, why would there be for CS or engineering?
Shit schools. Never took any "optimized" calc 1-3 class to get into my school.

>>9452602
Linus is not the spokesman of CS students. He started his career doing unboxings and painting. Doubt he even has a CS degree.

>>9452630
>No analysis,no algebra
Forgot those, and in first world countries, we call calculus "real analysis," but they're there. I already know most of what's covered in Baby Rudin (chapters 1-8, some of chapter 9 and basics of vector calculus).

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 08:25:04 2018 No.9452682

>>9452100
By the time the doctor is obsolete because of machines, you won't be needed to program or design them anymore, and certainly not even to construct them, winner. Being a CSfag must be difficult when life hands you such difficult problems as recognizing all those trees happen to be a forest.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:30:44 2018 No.9452755

>>9452373
Sigh

I talked to the grad students and they told me that theres been so many complaints about the curriculum that they radically changed it from c++ to java and from theory oriented to codemonkey oriented in the past few years. A few professors left too. Maybe I should transfer

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:33:19 2018 No.9452761 >>9452519 Not required

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:34:04 2018 No.9452763 >>9452097 >nothing makes women wet like introducing yourself as Dr.(Last name) Does that apply for a doctor of mathematics?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:42:35 2018 No.9452776 >>9452755 Why all this hate for Java?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:44:56 2018 No.9452780 >>9452349 >argue with prof Don't you guys have some kind of identification or something?

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:47:52 2018 No.9452783

>>9452630
I would love to see Math grads attempt to explain the inner workings of a DBMS and be able to make decisions based upon this and prove for an optimal solution using relational algebra.

When it comes to algorithms and mathematics computer science is indeed limited. But that isn't where the value of the degree is held. It's in database theory and development of good programming skills as well as an advanced understanding of object oriented programming.

Also no other degree really investigates knowledge representation or reasoning to the extent that computer science does. Which btw is essential to further technological advancements.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:50:49 2018 No.9452787 >>9452373 But I go to a shit school and I have to do all of those things

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 09:57:37 2018 No.9452796 >>9452776 Java is oversaturated, too many people know it. Theres more demand (according to job search sites in my area) for c++.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:01:26 2018 No.9452801

>>9451929
>>9452105
"computer science is really fun and interesting" - person who hasn't graduated yet

"I like my job as a computer scientist" - person who graduated less than 6 months ago and hasn't yet been hit with the realization code monkeys are glorified factory workers

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:29:31 2018 No.9452839

>>9452801
Don't get a job as a code monkey then.

The flipside of the vast majority of CS students being retarded is it's easy to out-compete them, especially if you're a non-autist who has social skills.

Really the goal should be to get to the point in a career ASAP where the only coding you do personally is on your own side-projects.

Also, for any CS people on here, consider Data Science for real

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:51:47 2018 No.9452851 >>9452118 *Sipser

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:52:02 2018 No.9452852 >>9452783 >When it comes to algorithms >computer science is indeed limited ??? Computer """"""""scientists"""""""" should focus on advanced algorithms, data structures if they want to solve non-trivial engineering problems.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:53:03 2018 No.9452854

cs/math major, CS was mostly a joke except for maybe my complexity class. i don't think I had one difficult CS class. anyway the money part is real. i worked 1 year and i have a shitload of money in the bank now. but my job was depressing. but luckily i got laid off, copped dat severance, and am going to grad school in a few months.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 10:56:14 2018 No.9452856 >>9452852 if you wanted to solve non-trivial engineering problems why wouldn't you be in academia, or at least a research lab?

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:03:25 2018 No.9452864

CS fag here. I dont like the condescension, but there is some truth to it. Last time i did some parallel programming course, they literally removed some stochastic math memery because the students complained about the inapplicability of it. I couldnt believe it when the professor said that, knowingly that even he complained that the uni removed a lot of math courses over the years.

Another professor teaching 3d modelling/gfx complained that therer was no dinstinct linear algebra course so he had to cram it into his course.

So yeah unless you go to a technical uni, it can be a relative meme degree. However, my uni does place a lot of emphasis on the practicals and they are not always easy but at the cost of theory/math which sucks

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:11:39 2018 No.9452870 >>9452852 I'm speaking from an undergraduate perspective. Of course when you are talking about post-grad research then there should be a heavy focus on this as it is usually the forefront of the field's pragmatic progress.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:47:59 2018 No.9452919 >>9452070 >why do i need statistics for AI rest was meh, but that one is exactly whats wrong with the entire ML and AI field, although by field i mostly mean retards on the internet and running startups.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:52:50 2018 No.9452922

>>9452783
>I would love to see Math grads attempt to explain the inner workings of a DBMS and be able to make decisions based upon this and prove for an optimal solution using relational algebra.
to be fair I have only ever seen one CS be able to do that in an interview as well.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:54:56 2018 No.9452928 >>9452373 Is that pic legit or a meme? I want to read more advanced textbooks since im self studying CS like material at the moment to improve my programming abilities.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 11:59:07 2018 No.9452932 >>9452928 For the programming books it's pretty legit. Don't read books that attempt to crash course you around java, it won't help you in the long term when it comes to programming.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:01:36 2018 No.9452939

>>9452928
With the math for cs books I don't necessarily agree with the pic. It really depends on what your overall goal is. You can definitely get away with just those shit tier textbooks. They aren't terrible I've read them myself. But if you want to learn discrete maths and have a full understanding of it then they really won't cut it.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:02:26 2018 No.9452940

>>9452783
>I would love to see Math grads attempt to explain the inner workings of a DBMS and be able to make decisions based upon this and prove for an optimal solution using relational algebra.
i looked up what relational algebra is and it seems like pretty simple maths. are you sure that a math major who should have had plenty of time working with sets, relations, etc. and a year of algebra courses would have an issue picking this up?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:10:55 2018 No.9452956 File: 702 KB, 597x602, CS Graduates.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] ITT: h8rs

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:13:00 2018 No.9452961 >>9452940 My point isn't that relational algebra is difficult to learn or understand. Relational algebra is simply a tool for describing database theory concepts.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:13:18 2018 No.9452962 >>9452956 the money shit is true, i have friends of friends who got 100k signing bonuses to go work for google when they graduated

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:25:37 2018 No.9452979 >>9452962 >100k signing bonuses >still have to live in a van https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 12:59:02 2018 No.9453029 >>9452979 a different friend of a friend allegedly actually does that lel.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 13:04:13 2018 No.9453033 >>9452962 >working at google

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 13:54:22 2018 No.9453111 >>9452312 Hi CMU. I go to Pitt :)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 16:49:53 2018 No.9453442 >tfw majored in software engineering >missed out on college parties and shit >can't land a job >could have taken a meme degree like CS, partied every day and I would have gotten a job straight out of college it hurts

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 16:56:17 2018 No.9453449 >>9452979 nah you just have a 2k a month shoe box apartment and drive a benz.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 17:10:42 2018 No.9453475

>>9451929
>CS love thread
It is pure mathematics (set theory, logic, formal languages, graph theory, ...)
It is applied math (algorithms, cryptography, probability theory, ...)
It is engineering (How to build stable software? How to build an IC? How to manage memory? How to manage concurrency?...)
It is philosophy (What is randomness? What is intelligence? What is an algorithm?....)
It is physics (Is informatino physical? How to build a quantum computing system? What is a transistor? ...)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 17:31:48 2018 No.9453509 >>9452121 That right there is why we hate you. Like this anon said >>9452104 you want trade school to get in on the alleged silicon valley bux (I'll be in a startup xDDDD) and we want to learn about things for its own sake. You're a pleb.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 17:33:11 2018 No.9453510

>>9452451
>Besides, once you know calc 1, you literally can pick up any book and go arbitrarily further i.e. what physics majors claim they can do about CS.
I double your-mom dare you to try a rigorous QF or general relativity theory with only Calc I under your belt.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 17:35:38 2018 No.9453515

>>9453475
>See all this CS.
>math
You forgot the part where CS is about googling another's work and ripping it off.

Oh, don't talk about transistors you shithead. Its like you just started naming random shit from digital design, almost like you googled a wikipedia article.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 17:47:06 2018 No.9453530 >>9453515 >Get an assignment >Cut and paste code from examples >Go to Stackexchange for help on the part you can't stich together I AM A HIGHLY SKILLED TECH WORKER

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 18:36:07 2018 No.9453612 >>9453530 Don't forget spending the rest of the day on pornhub. STEM majors be so jelly of us.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 18:45:33 2018 No.9453631 >>9452349 >Prof is grad student Is this the state of your average american college ?

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 18:52:49 2018 No.9453641
File: 394 KB, 860x5600, algebra.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9453631
>Is this the state of your average american college ?

No. Most universities only lets grad students teach the remedial class at or below precalculus.

The proctor probably wasn't the professor and probably ran the recitation classes as a TA.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 18:55:59 2018 No.9453647 you can do a lot with a cs degree. people are always going to need websites built and games programmed. it's great. i love this! i love numbers and code. it is really fun

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 19:12:04 2018 No.9453672 >>9453641 No, the grad student actually taught the cs1&2 classes. He was older though, probably mid 30s. He was the instructor the entire first week I went and his name was on the syllabus as instructor. There were other grad TAs though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 19:13:24 2018 No.9453674 >>9452086 Why don't you show some threads yourself then? The burden of proof is on you, the one making the claim.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 20:21:12 2018 No.9453775 >>9452086 Is MIT a top school in medicine? Protip: no.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 20:32:06 2018 No.9453784 File: 40 KB, 600x450, Kai-Qin-of-China-600x450.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9452086 >mfw my compsci friends kept telling me how confusing demorgans law was

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 20:35:06 2018 No.9453792 >>9452386 >having a career so low-paying that a prostitute makes more money than you

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 20:43:42 2018 No.9453805

>>9452502
>Fall 1
Matrix Algebra
Single Variable Calculus
Intro to Proofs and Abstract Mathematics
Physics I
Chemistry I or Biology I
Programming in C++

>Spring 1
Vector Calculus
Physics II
Chemistry II or Biology II
Digital Logic and Automata Theory
Data Structures and Algorithms in C++
Technical Writing
Advanced C++ Topics (Seminar)

>Fall 2
ODEs and Dynamical Systems
Physics III
System Programming and Networking
Computer Architecture
Design of Algorithms
Combinatorics and Graph Theory I
Array/Vector Programming (Seminar)

>Spring 2
Electrical Engineering Fundamentals
Probability Theory (Mathematics department)
Mathematical Logic (Mathematics department)
Numerical Analysis I (Mathematics department)
Operating Systems
Databases
Embedded Programming (Seminar)

>Fall 3
Abstract Algebra I
Real Analysis I
Mathematical Statistics
Programming Languages and Compilers I
Computability and Complexity Theory
Linear and Integer Programming
Functional Programming (Seminar)

>Spring 3
Abstract Algebra II
Real Analysis II
Fourier Analysis and Applications
Computer Security and Cryptography
Combinatorics and Graph Theory II
Compilers II and Type Theory
Prolog Programming (Seminar)

>Fall 4
Complex Analysis
Modern Geometry
Convex and Nonlinear Optimization
Control Systems Engineering
Information Theory and Coding Theory
Malware Analysis and Reverse Engineering
Forth Programming (Seminar)

>Spring 4
Calculus of Variations and Optimal Control Theory
Computer Graphics
Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning
Advanced Analysis of Algorithms
Quantum Computing
Numerical Analysis II (Mathematics department)
OpenCL/CUDA Programming (Seminar)

>Fall 5
Computer Vision and Robotics
Computational Geometry
Natural Language Processing
Approximation Algorithms
Economics
[Elective]
Professionalism, Ethics, and Conduct (Seminar)

>Spring 5
Software Engineering
Parallel and Distributed Algorithms
Simulation and Modeling
[Elective]
[Elective]
[Elective]
Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 21:03:16 2018 No.9453825 >>9453805 >7 courses per semester holy shit

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 21:33:20 2018 No.9453852

Freshman here, rate my school's courseload for CS:

CS Courses:

CS and Programming, Intro to Programming, Prog and data structures, Comp Organization and Architecture, Algorithms and Complexities, Automata and Computability, Fundies of Operating Systems, Design of File and DB systems, Fundies of Software Engineering or Software Design. Then there are like 20 senior electives to choose from.

Mat:
Cal 1, Cal 2, Lin Alg or Engineering Math(what is this?), Discrete Math or Computing Structures, Stats for the Sciences

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 21:39:49 2018 No.9453863 >>9453852 Seems like a pretty thorough cs program. I didn't take most of those courses and i went to a pretty good school (but I took a lot more math)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 21:54:25 2018 No.9453874 >>9453852 Looks like a nice course load for, say, the first three semesters. What comes after? I imagine it's not three full semesters of electives.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 21:55:33 2018 No.9453875 >>9453863 What math did you take?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:00:40 2018 No.9453882 >>9453805 This is reasonably close to several curricula I have seen. A bit more extensive, for those were all three-year programs, and they generally had about 75% of this. But reasonably close.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:02:41 2018 No.9453884 >>9453874 That's for the first three years.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:03:21 2018 No.9453886 >>9452121 >complex analysis isn't useful outside of math are you really this ignorant or just trolling?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:05:34 2018 No.9453888 >>9453805 >Professionalism, Ethics, and Conduct (Seminar) You mean "Diversity, Feminism, and Gender Communism (Seminar)"

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:16:25 2018 No.9453902

>>9453852
>Engineering Math(what is this?)

How the fuck should we know if you don't tell us what school you go to. Engineering math can cover vector calculus, matrix algebra, odes, pdes, complex variables, Fourier methods, differential geometry, numerical methods, optimization, calculus of variations, or more depending what school you go to.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:26:40 2018 No.9453918 >>9453884 Oh. Then it's pretty light and basic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:41:56 2018 No.9453938 >>9453852 Toward the lower-end. Doesn't look like a good school for CS. In fact it would be light even for software engineering.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 22:42:57 2018 No.9453940 >>9453886 You don't seem to know what complex analysis is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:10:08 2018 No.9453982 >>9453886 He's right. Complex analysis is LITERALLY useless unless you're in math or doing low-level PhD level shit in a fancy tier of engineering or computer science. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:25:10 2018 No.9454011 >>9453938 Yeah that's about what I expected. I guess that's what you get when you don't do anything in high school.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:29:05 2018 No.9454021

>>9453852
sounds a lot like my brainlet school

CS in order: C++ Programming 1 and 2, Intro to Data Structures, Machine Organization and Assembly Language Programming, Software Construction, Logic Design, Discrete Structures, Advanced Electromagnetics, Embedded Systems, Advanced Data Structures, Design and Architecture of Computer Systems, Professional Development, Theory of Automata and Formal Language, Technical Communications, Design of Operating Systems, Probability, Compiler Design, Combinatorial Optimization Algorithms, Machine Learning
then 7 electives like Numerical Analysis, Information Retrieval, Combinatorics, Formal Logic, AI, etc.

Other: Physics sequence, Calc, Diff Eqs, and Linear Algebra, "advanced linear algebra" and circuit stuff up to signals

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:32:17 2018 No.9454026 >>9454021 oh and discrete math of course my school rank is in the 300s nationally lmao

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:32:31 2018 No.9454027

Hey guys, rate my curriculum:

Intermediate Java
Discrete Structures
Data Structures
Computer Organization
Systems Software
Algorithms
Formal Methods and Automata
Operating Systems
Algorithm Design
Computer Vision
Pattern Recognition
Quality Assurance
Artificial Intelligence
Data Science
High Performance Computing
Natural Language Processing

Calc 3
Linear Algebra
Differential Equations
Intro to Real Analysis
Real Analysis 1
Differential Geometry
Topics in Geometry
Partial Differential Equations
Optimization
Numeral Approximation

Intermediate Probability
Applied Stats
Applied Regression
Applied Time Steries
Stochastic Processes

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:34:30 2018 No.9454031 >>9454027 what school that's pretty decent, better than Berkeley's

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:37:03 2018 No.9454041 >>9454031 School in Pittsburgh. The actual requirements are a bit less than that, but I tacked on a few courses because I have the time to do it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:37:18 2018 No.9454042 >>9454031 for reference: https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/undergrads/cs/degree-reqs-lowerdiv https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/undergrads/cs/degree-reqs-upperdiv i don't think they even take ODEs lmao. the absolute state of our education

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:40:04 2018 No.9454047 >>9454042 >https://eecs.berkeley.edu/resources/undergrads/cs/degree-reqs-lowerdiv >berkeley's last math class is diff eqs and linear algebra, not even advanced linear >this is a top 5 school for EECS in the US rankings are a fucking meme, holy shit

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:43:34 2018 No.9454054 >>9451929 people who think CS majors are brainlets haven't taken a course on theory of computaion

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:44:10 2018 No.9454055 >>9454047 >>9454042 What the fuck? CMU at least requires a minor (most go with math). Why doesn't Berkeley even require calc 3?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:45:11 2018 No.9454057 >>9454054 This

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:47:19 2018 No.9454062

>>9454027
>Intermediate Java
Well the best part of your list is you took the most important class first. You'll be ahead of the game when you start, just need to get caught up on dark roasts, macchiatos, etc. The rest of it is just a huge waste of time/debt accumulation, but you'll have something to talk about with your Peets coworkers so not a complete waste I suppose.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:47:32 2018 No.9454064 >>9454054 Theory of computation is a first-year course, anon. A tough one as first-year courses go, I suppose; but hardly the pinnacle of challenging material in a CS curriculum.

Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:48:15 2018 No.9454066
File: 82 KB, 524x708, Untitled2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9454055
Oh wait, they do take Calc 3 (Math 53)
They voided the Diff Eqs and Linear Algebra requirement with a "STEM Elective" so you can opt out.

Fucking lmao, even UCR requires diff eqs and linear algebra. How the fuck is this real?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:49:44 2018 No.9454070 >>9454062 I didn't get this joke at first but 7/10

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:49:50 2018 No.9454072 >>9454064 Theory of Computation is a 3rd year course at Berkeley. Dunno what school you go to.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:50:46 2018 No.9454073 >>9454072 This guy is right. Theory of Computation and Algorithm Design are 3rd year courses. >>9454064 Don't know what you're smoking. What do you consider 'hard' courses?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:51:48 2018 No.9454076 >>9454064 >Theory of computation is a first-year course, anon lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:51:48 2018 No.9454077 >>9454066 Are your math courses somehow way more difficult than they should be? I'm confused

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:53:19 2018 No.9454078 >>9454077 >Are your math courses somehow way more difficult than they should be? lol here's the math 53 final (last math class we have to take) from 2012 https://tbp.berkeley.edu/exams/4890/download/

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:55:48 2018 No.9454084 >>9454078 Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed in you guys What makes Berkeley so high rated then? The grad students/professors?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 21 23:57:44 2018 No.9454090 >>9454084 i don't know

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:08:01 2018 No.9454111 >>9452373 We're not a shitty school, and we use Head First Java. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~jrs/61b/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:10:15 2018 No.9454113 File: 30 KB, 633x758, 1430453422386.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9454111 >https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~jrs/61b/ what the fuck

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:11:49 2018 No.9454115

>>9454072
Well, it was third trimester of the first year for me.

>>9454073
>Don't know what you're smoking. What do you consider 'hard' courses?
I recall Process Theory (featuring an overview and comparison of less common automata-theoretic systems, such as petri nets, labeled transition systems, their logics such as H-M logic and other modal logics, and equivalences preserving those logics, etc; basically Theory of Computation 2: The Less Common Topics), Program Semantics (operational and denotational semantics, lambda calculus as a semantic theory, and a couple of related topics that I forgot), Formal Methods (overview of lots of different formalisms, comparisons, etc; not focused on any particular system), and an unnamed course on Dijkstra-style Hoare program correctness proofs, all as courses standing out for being hardcore, much more so than theory of computation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:12:01 2018 No.9454116 >>9452373 We also use Sipser. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~sseshia/172/ I can't think of a single school that doesn't use it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:13:10 2018 No.9454117 >>9454115 are you european? i'm getting depressed by the standards of burger unis >>9454066 >>9454116 >>9454111

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:13:25 2018 No.9454119 >>9454111 Sounds good, in the begging of my head, there is word recursive. Also there is a thing called graphical design. It's done ONCE in a lifetime. Of institution. It should be final.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:14:39 2018 No.9454120 >>9451929 cs majors at my school took 200 level diff eqs and linear algebra and one 300 level analysis class and thats all the math they need rest is boring "programming" and whatever else they do

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:16:48 2018 No.9454126 >>9454115 can you please post your school so I can look through your syllabi and self-study? my school has a worse curriculum than berkeley, at least according to whatever this raging sperg is posting

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:16:51 2018 No.9454127 >>9454064 You either went to a joke of a school or you're not referring to the same course (e.g. language barrier).

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:20:30 2018 No.9454133

>>9454117
>are you european? i'm getting depressed by the standards of burger unis
Yes.

This was ten years ago, though, and before the economic recession hit. I imagine standards have slacked (they always go down abruptly when the educational money supply dries up and universities require lots of passing students, and then slowly rise again over the years).

Also, I can only guess as to what exactly the boundaries of course material are in the states. For all I know fixpoint modal logics and bisimulations are part of the Theory of Computation course there rather than being part of a separate Part Two, which is why it's a late-year course?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:22:49 2018 No.9454137 why are schools like MIT, Berkeley, Caltech, considered top-tiers in the world for CS, while some no-name euro unis are much more rigorous and thorough? it boggles the mind

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:27:01 2018 No.9454142

>>9454137
>My school is the best, not a single student got a passing grade! That means it's the hardest, so it counts the most!
This is why I (a high school dropout) have interns with masters degrees doing my busywork. I'd feel bad, but if you were smart to begin with you wouldn't have bought into that nonsense to begin with. Education is great, paying massive amounts to train yourself for a job with no risk to your hopeful employer is laughably idiotic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:28:19 2018 No.9454147 >>9454142 dumb amerifat

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:31:05 2018 No.9454150

>>9454127
I refer to a course that covered: (according to my textbook table of contents)
>Finite Automata
>Regular Languages and Regular Grammars
>Properties of Regular Languages
>Context-Free Languages
>Simplification of Context-Free Grammars
>Pushdown Automata
>Properties of Context-Free Languages
>Turing Machines
>Other Models of Turing Machines
>A Hierarchy of Formal Languages and Automata
>Limits of Algorithmic Computation
>Other Models of Computation (recursive functions, Post systems, rewriting systems)
>Introduction to Computational Complexity (we did not cover this part in the ToC class)
We used a textbook by Peter Linz, and the course covered all of those topics, except for the complexity part (which was the separate algorithms class).

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:34:35 2018 No.9454155

>>9454150
That's pretty advanced. I guess if you took that in your 3rd tri-mester, then that's like the 2nd year in the US, which makes sense. But still, it's a bit advanced for being that early in the curriculum. Typically, students take an algorithms course before that and/or a formal methods course as well.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:43:34 2018 No.9454161

>>9453805
>No Measure Theory and Probability, Stochastic Calculus and Differential Equations, or Financial Engineering
>No Functional Analysis and Application
>No Partial Differential Equations or FEMs
>No Image Processing
>No Multimedia Compression
>No Computer Algebra Systems
>No Automated Theorem Proving
>No Game Programming
>No Web Development
>No Phone Development
>No Big Data™ Mining
>No IT and DBA
>No Communist Economic Thought and GNU/GPL
>No Social Justice courses
>No seminar on anal sex
>No mandatory cross dressing
>No courses on Chinese/Hindi/Urdu/Bangla

Weak.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:45:23 2018 No.9454165 >>9454161 >wanting to get an undergraduate degree in a total of 8 years woo lad

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:47:28 2018 No.9454167 >>9454165 All of that can be done in 3 if you're not a brainlet.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:48:29 2018 No.9454168 >>9454167 true I guess i mean you already had cross dressing and anal sex down in advance

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:49:07 2018 No.9454169 >>9454167 The curriculum the first anon proposed was 5 years. 5 years + 3 years = 8 years You would become a true master of all knowledge in computers and mathematics

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:49:32 2018 No.9454171

>>9454150
OK, this is usually referred to as fundamentals (or introduction to) theory of computation. The non-intro/fundamental version covers topics such as:
- degree of undecideability (algorithmic hierarchy)
- concrete complexity
- axiomatic complexity
- algorithm compressibility
- interactive proofs (including zero-knowledge proofs)
- relevant topics (such as a mild intro to quantum computing, or cryptography).

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:49:44 2018 No.9454172

rate what i took in school

Intro to CS
Data Structures
Computer Architecture
Algorithms
Discrete Math
Formal Languages/Automata
Seminar Course on Neuroscience and Computation

Calc 1-3, DE
Intro to Proofs
Introductory Linear Algebra (Matrices and stuff)
Linear Algebra (More general class with more depth and focus on abstract vector spaces)
Theory of Probability (w/ math department, not CS)
Theory of Statistics *
Linear Optimization
Numerical Analysis
Introductory Real Analysis (Abbott)
Real Analysis (Rudin)
Math logic & basic model theory
Signal Processing (Wavelets & Fourier Series)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 00:53:56 2018 No.9454178 >>9454172 Pretty good. I took mostly the same, plus non-linear optimization, stochastic systems, mathematical statistics, bioinformatics and a few assorted courses.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:03:40 2018 No.9454186 In t his thread, I'm just now seeing classes titled "Linear Algebra and Differential Equations" for the first time ever. Is this a common thing? Combining the two topics? Why not just separate the two?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:06:36 2018 No.9454189 >>9454186 >american education isn't a meme

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:13:47 2018 No.9454200

>>9454171
Hm, I can't say I have ever seen a course called "theory of computation" that extends to such topics as the arithmetical hierarchy, on the web or anywhere else; most course descriptions I have seen seem broadly similar to my own. I would call that "complexity theory", which as a separate course covers material AT LEAST as broad as what I considered "theory of computation". (It was a master course for me, not undergraduate.) But if so, that does explain why it's a senior-level course.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:24:24 2018 No.9454216
File: 17 KB, 353x332, 654.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9452630
>say people should learn real analysis with calculus
>/sci/ goes "WAAAH HE WANTS FRESHMEN TO LEARN GRADUATE ANALYSIS WAAAAH"
>say CS involves calculus
>/sci/ goes "WAAAAH CS HAS NO ANALYSIS WAAAAH"

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:30:31 2018 No.9454222 >>9453886 Complex numbers certainly are used outside of math but Complex Analysis is most definitely not. The theory of analytic functions is only used by a small majority of mathematicians.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:43:03 2018 No.9454234 >>9453641 At my university, grad students will get to teach courses like group theory for non pure math majors.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 01:44:06 2018 No.9454236 >>9454222 Theoretical physishits sometimes use analytic continuation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 07:43:47 2018 No.9454574 >>9453886 >are you really this ignorant it comes with being a cs major

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 07:49:14 2018 No.9454578 >>9454216 sci isn't one person, and sci is usually the ones telling freshmen they need to learn graduate mathematics or they aren't really learning anything

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 07:51:52 2018 No.9454581

>>9454236
99% of the math above what engineers have to take is only used in physics for physicists to pretend they have some cool and complicated bullshit. They just really want to use "advanced mathematics" and will use any bullshit jusitfication to explain why their theory needs it

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 07:52:54 2018 No.9454583 >>9452630 So no useless math? Sounds good to me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 07:56:23 2018 No.9454589 >>9454216 Baby Rudin isn't graduate level (except at really shit schools), Folland is.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 09:31:30 2018 No.9454687

>>9452656
>Nice strawman, dummy. BTW just checked what calc 2 and 3 cover, it actually covers all of calc 2 and some of calc 3.
This isnt a strawman, I dont think you know what a strawman is.
>but since you consider all CS to be a joke
I dont think all of CS is a joke - that is your inference
>but more than math majors in Burgerstan
That some programs are better than others not only doesnt justify the lack of improvement in the better ones it is my entire point.
>Shit school graduates
>Shit schools
So you agree with my premise that CS is considered memey because of the wide variance in curricula strength?

Stop writing your posts like you are coming up with the burns for the next step up movie and you might get taken seriously.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 10:24:28 2018 No.9454724 >>9452796 Complete bullshit. Finding a c++ job is rare compared to Java or angular

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 11:08:54 2018 No.9454772

>>9454687
[not the guy you're replying to]

>Stop writing your posts like you are coming up with the burns for the next step up movie and you might get taken seriously.
Sadly, that level of discussion is very rare on 4chan.

>So you agree with my premise that CS is considered memey because of the wide variance in curricula strength?
I do.

>That some programs are better than others not only doesnt justify the lack of improvement in the better ones it is my entire point.
I'm not sure I'm understanding that sentence correctly, but are you implying there is something wrong with the better ones? I mean, technically anything other than the very best one can improve and in all likelihood so can the very best one, but that's hardly subject-specific criticism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 11:47:19 2018 No.9454810 >>9452161 >>doesn't know about analytic combinatorics and its use in the analysis of algorithms Brainlet here - what are "analytic combinatorics" and how are they relevant to algorithm analysis? Or are you just making up words?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 11:50:28 2018 No.9454816 >>9452161 Analytic combinatorics has exactly nothing to do with complex analysis. Stopped reading there, when you proved you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 11:54:51 2018 No.9454821

>>9454687
>>>9452656
>This isnt a strawman, I dont think you know what a strawman is.
It is. Never said it "capped at" calc 2.

>That some programs are better than others not only doesnt justify the lack of improvement in the better ones it is my entire point.
Your point is CS is a meme degree.

>So you agree with my premise that CS is considered memey because of the wide variance in curricula strength?
I agree with it, but it's not your premise.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 12:10:32 2018 No.9454833 I want to die every time I am reminded of the fact that I'm studying how to make computers go beep boop instead of life or the fucking cosmos

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 12:13:28 2018 No.9454836 >>9454833 You have only yourself to blame since you could be studying how to produce artificial life or the limits of computations (which is equivalent to the limit of mathematically feasible proof).

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 13:12:49 2018 No.9454889 ITT: People who sweat at uni for 5 years to learn CS theory and end up building glorified HTML forms for business people. It does pay off pretty well, so no harm done in the end.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 13:53:53 2018 No.9454929

>>9452630
>no proof linear algebra
I just want to clarify something since it's not the first time I've seen this phrase used. What exactly do people mean by "no proof courses"? Do they just give you theorems without bothering to prove them? What is even the point of such course? Is it an artifact American universities, seeing as my (eastern yuropean) uni didn't had anything like that.

Though I guess there was a similar course: a 2-semester Probability Theory and Statistics course in which some results were left without proof by saying "it's proved in measure theory".

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 13:58:13 2018 No.9454930 >>9454929 applied math linear algebra proofs are really simple though so there's no point in leaving them out

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 13:59:52 2018 No.9454931 >>9454929 applied math linear algebra proofs are really simple though so there's no point in leaving them out

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 15:07:57 2018 No.9455015 >>9452373 >If you don't have a capstone project to graduate, it's shit. I wish it was just a capstone project

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 16:34:04 2018 No.9455126 >>9452070 >3 correct posts >1 post about a retarded anon >1 retarded post by probably not someone in the field of CS >1 completely unrelated reddit post ???

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 16:36:47 2018 No.9455132 >>9455126 that's not reddit

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 17:11:35 2018 No.9455207 >>9453442 software engineering = cs = codemonkey studies at 99.9 percent of USA schools

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 17:23:41 2018 No.9455240 >>9454810 >doesn't even know how to google. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toh_-JRc77w&list=PLrNmXMVD0XDSTGRue3AKkHGZkCjmo5jBA http://aofa.cs.princeton.edu/home/ http://ac.cs.princeton.edu/home/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 17:29:45 2018 No.9455246 >>9454816 See for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qap2MyBTSZk&list=PLhsb6tmzSpiwyQCl4jmVPZymDs1MYIa8o You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 17:51:35 2018 No.9455251 >>9455246 Thanks for proving you're more clueless than the average middle schooler. You can stop posting anytime.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 18:05:11 2018 No.9455255 >>9455251 I win. Get over it.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 18:08:40 2018 No.9455256

The problem most people have on /sci/ is that CS is, ultimately, more of a trade than it is a science. That isn't to say it can't be taught as a science, and it's not to say there aren't good programs that cover a lot of the theory and science behind how computers work, but those kinds of programs are few and far between. Most of the programs will teach you how to code, how networking works, a bit about informatics, and a bit about hardware. For the most part, however, it teaches you skills that you can then apply to a job, not methods you can use to design or deduce.

Programming, for example, is becoming more and more common outside of CS. Biologists, in competent programs so far, are now required to learn R and a bit of Python in order to be able to analyze and organize data. In the past, it's been custom to just hire informatics and CS people along with statisticians, but because of the rapid growth of the bioinformatics model of handling problems in biology, it's becoming much more favorable to just have biologists know R and Python. The same is true, from those I've talked to, in almost all subsets of Engineering, as well as analytical chemistry and physics. For the most part, programming is no longer seen as this sort of enigmatic, difficult skill, but as something that's really rather easy to pick up on in a fashion more similar to a trade. I understand fully that CS is not "programming: The major", but there's no escaping that most CS programs are just primarily focused on teaching people how to code.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 18:12:26 2018 No.9455257 >>9455255 You're so retarded you don't even know what the word "complex" means. You win at being the king of stupid.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 19:23:31 2018 No.9455286

>>9455256
>Most of the programs will teach you how to code, how networking works, a bit about informatics, and a bit about hardware.
This is all true. The annoying part, though, is that any time anyone vaguely suggests that they are actually in it for the science part, or worse that they are actually studying that part in university, /sci/ treats them as if they claimed they had been abducted by aliens last week and really enjoyed the anal probing.

Sure, there is a lot of crap "CS" education out there. But /sci/ mostly acts as if it is entirely incapable of seeing the distinction.

Anonymous Mon Jan 22 21:32:05 2018 No.9455353

>>9455286
>>9455256
>Most of the programs will teach you how to code, how networking works, a bit about informatics, and a bit about hardware.
You guys act like this is a bad thing. You both, as well as most of /sci/, have to realize there is a distinction between computer science and math. If I wanted to learn computer science theory and ONLY go to school for a degree in computer science theory, I would obtain a degree in pure math and then apply it to computers. There's a reason it's called computer science. You HAVE TO apply it to computers. That's the very reason there are classes on networking, hardware, operating systems, etc.. They are the epitome of computer technology and applied computer science. You cannot avoid these topics if you want to do anything related to computer science. If I wanted to write formal proofs and design algorithms all day, I would go do a pure math major and take 10 analysis courses and then easily apply them to computer science.

This is perhaps my biggest annoyance with /sci/. You guys act like a CS degree should be completely theory of computation and algorithm design (a.k.a. pure math but applied to computer science) or else it's not legit. However, a CS degree should be mostly hardware, networking, operating systems, algorithms, and then 1 or 2 theory courses. You should obtain breadth in ANY undergraduate degree and if you want to specialize in one specific area, you can take those theory courses as your electives or just go to grad school for the depth aspect. Why is this so difficult to understand?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 22 21:35:40 2018 No.9455355 >>9455353 Try not being inbred next time thank you.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 03:39:32 2018 No.9455420

>>9455126
>>3 correct posts

Merge sort is a totally obvious sorting algorithm that literally anyone could come up with. Sit a group of kids or college students down and ask them to come up with ideas how best to sort a bunch of cards with numbers on them. They will quickly come up with picking out the biggest (selection), putting them into place (insertion), swapping (bubble/cocktail), divide and conquer (merge sort), and sorting the highest digit first into groups (bucket sort). Then someone staring at bucket sort will try sorting the lowest digit first (radix sort) and someone staring at merge or bucket will think of splitting it down the middle (pivot/quick sort). Heap sort is the only non-obvious one you learn freshman year because you need to have the notion of a heap in mind, but once you do it's obvious (which is why they were invented at the same time). CS students usually don't even learn about the odder algorithms like comb sort which acts as a good counterexample to worst case and average case analysis.

The TCP hand sake is not a revolutionary algorithmic breakthrough and networking hardware is way more complicated than "hurr durr plug in a cable to a router and you're done". Without fast hardware and ASICs, we would be stuck with dial up BBSs and have no cellphones. The important difficult work was done by the EEs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 05:05:30 2018 No.9455445 >>9454929 The mean matrix algebra classes. There are proofs (they're too easy to leave out) but they focus on matrices and leave out abstract vector spaces.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 05:10:01 2018 No.9455448 File: 426 KB, 1680x2390, analysis.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Rate my CS Calculus I course. We are expected to know and replicate proof to every theorem stated, except for some arguably difficult theorems like Riemann series theorem.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 05:23:13 2018 No.9455452

>>9455448
>Abott
>No metric spaces

Total meme course. 0/10

>difficult theorems like Riemann series theorem

Partition the terms into positive and negative buckets.
Since it's conditionally convergent, both buckets diverge.
Pick elements in order from the positive bucket until you surpass whatever upper bound you want the series to reach (you can always do this because it's divergent)
Pick elements in order from the negative bucket until you surpass whatever lower bound you want the series to reach (you can always do this because it's divergent)
Since it's conditionally convergent, the terms are bounded so the distance they over/undershoot is bounded (by the last term) as well for big enough n.
Therefor they converge to whatever lim sup and lim inf you want.
If you want them to diverge to +/-infinity, repeat the process and just have them exceed the integers in succession as a upper/lower bounds.
QED

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 06:55:19 2018 No.9455496 thank you for reminding you're all autistic

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 07:26:08 2018 No.9455514 >>9455452 Sure, the concept of the proof is not difficult, but the rigorous proof takes about 4 pages and handful of lemmas.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 07:37:10 2018 No.9455522 >>9452109 >webdev, phonedev, OOP >not related to jobs Then why do I have a job

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 07:44:01 2018 No.9455532 >>9455514 >Sure, the concept of the proof is not difficult, but the rigorous proof takes about 4 pages and handful of lemmas. No, it takes a page and a third in Baby Rudin (pg76-77)

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 17:43:55 2018 No.9456322 >>9452600 Exactly how I feel, the only real CS degrees are the math double majors

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 18:02:18 2018 No.9456360 >>9452135 I'm doing Math with CS thrown in there. Not enough CS to be considered an expert, but enough to be a competent programer

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:14:40 2018 No.9456478
File: 141 KB, 800x600, 1451033246293.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9455256
>Most of the programs will teach you how to code, how networking works, a bit about informatics, and a bit about hardware. For the most part, however, it teaches you skills that you can then apply to a job, not methods you can use to design or deduce.

That's what they try but most cs kids come out with terrible coding skills. The "99.5% can't Fizzbuzz" is not an exaggeration. You can only get good at programming if you willfully practice and most cs kids just don't give a fuck. All they want is the easy job with 100k starting and they want to do the least amount of work to get it. So they get an easy cs degree rather than put effort and follow through into building a portfolio to get a foot in the door.

>programming is no longer seen as this sort of enigmatic, difficult skill

It never was.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:17:31 2018 No.9456483 >>9455353 >However, a CS degree should be mostly hardware, networking, operating systems, algorithms, and then 1 or 2 theory courses That's not CS, that's Computer Engineering.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:27:07 2018 No.9456496
File: 89 KB, 1155x409, The truth about CS.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9455286
Because the theory courses (in America) are watered down to the point they become jokes. A CS theory course covers a third of the amount of material in a similar level engineering or physics or math course. Yet everyone in the class is struggling and looks at you like an alien if you comment on how easy or how little math there is.

The courses are outright scams charging 3 to 4 times what they are worth and the students have no business being in a university in the first place.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:40:42 2018 No.9456505

>>9454027
>Intermediate Java
CRAP, you should have had only one course on programming.
>Discrete Structures
CRAP, you should have taking a real proof courses followed by a combinatorics or graph theory course
>Data Structures
>Algorithms
>Algorithm Design
Data Structure and Algorithms should have been one combined course. You program moves too slow.
>Quality Assurance
The fuck is that meme course?
>Computer Vision
>Pattern Recognition
>Artificial Intelligence
>Data Science
Can't help but feel like those classes overlapped quite a lot.
>Intro to Real Analysis
>Real Analysis 1
Why the hell did you take the same course twice?

>Intermediate Probability
>Applied Stats
>Stochastic Processes
>Applied Regression
>Applied Time Series
Good.

>No compilers
>No programming language theory
>No security
Meme program.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:44:46 2018 No.9456517 >>9456505 >>Intro to Real Analysis >>Real Analysis 1 >Why the hell did you take the same course twice? are you blind?

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 19:58:37 2018 No.9456540
File: 99 KB, 561x595, 1275438373087.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9454054
>haven't taken a course on theory of computaion

>Muh DFA are NFA are RegEx
>Muh pumping lemma
>Muh PDA are CFG
>Muh pumping lemma again for PDA
>Muh halting problem diagonalization
>Muh Rice's theorem
>Muh TIME hierarchy theorem
>Muh SPACE hierarchy theorem
>Muh NL=coNL
>Muh NSPACE(f(n))=SPACE(f(n)^2)
>Muh p-time/log-space reductions
>Muh rewriting the stages of a NP computation into a big ass SAT expression to show completeness

It's an easy as fuck class you could teach to high schoolers or gifted middle schoolers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 20:02:29 2018 No.9456551 >>9456517 The same in the sense that it's like taking "Calculus 1 for Business/Bio Majors" and "Calculus 1", Algebra-based and Calculus-based Physics, or "Intro to Programming in Java" and "Intro to Programming in C++".

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 20:09:18 2018 No.9456561 >>9452086 did they ever do UPenn?

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 20:31:54 2018 No.9456590

>>9456505
>>Intermediate Java
>CRAP, you should have had only one course on programming.
Intermediate Java is the only class on programming I took. That was during my first semester lol, not sure what you're getting at...

>>Discrete Structures
>CRAP, you should have taking a real proof courses followed by a combinatorics or graph theory course
You're fucking retarded. You must not understand computer science.

>>Algorithm Design
>Data Structure and Algorithms should have been one combined course. You program moves too slow.
Uh no... universities like CMU don't even do that. There's a huge difference between the two if you actually learn the ins and outs of both.

>>Data Science
>Can't help but feel like those classes overlapped quite a lot.
They do, to an extent. You must be stupid if you think AI, Computer Vision, and Pattern Recognition is the same. You're probably the same person that uses phrases like "we're going to create an AI that can detect facial recognition and patterns within our database". AI is way more than machine learning. Computer vision is an application of machine learning. Pattern Recognition is a formality of machine learning. Data Science CAN involve machine learning but is a lot different. Do they/can they all have connections to machine learning? Yeah, sure, then they're all similar. However, if you actually study the pure topics in each, they're SOOOO different.

>>No compilers
>>No programming language theory
>>No security
>Meme program.

>Taking a security course
lol are you fucking stupid?

>Programming language theory
This might?? be useful, but so impractical. You can learn a lot about this kind of stuff through normal programming experience. Plus, you learn some of it in a systems class and lower level courses.

>Compilers
This could be useful. Again, not practical in everyday life. However, it provides valuable insight. Unnecessary but would be nice.

Congratulations, almost all of your points are fucking retarded.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 20:37:01 2018 No.9456600

>>9456505
Also another one

>Data Structure and Algorithms should have been one combined course. You program moves too slow.
You're probably the same retard that thinks algorithms are merge sort and quick sort while data structures are hash tables and arrays. Even fucking Stanford separates these two classes into "Programming Abstractions" (sorting, stacks, queues, recursion, ...) and "Data Structures and Algorithms" (big oh, recurrence, searches, graphs, heaps, greedy algos, ...). Find a university that doesn't separate the two courses and I can guarantee you their students are fucking stupid or they're missing out on valuable material.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:07:22 2018 No.9456649

>>9456561
>Math (6 CU)
> MATH 104 Calculus 1
> MATH 114 Calculus 2
> CIS 160 Mathematical Foundations of Computer Science
> CIS 261 CIS 261 - Discrete Probability, Stochastic Processes, and Statistical Inference

>Engineering (14 CU)
> CIS 110 Introduction to Computer Programming (with Java, for Beginners)
> CIS 120 Programming Languages and Techniques I
>A fast-paced introduction to the fundamental concepts of programming and software design. This course assumes some previous programming experience, at the level of a high school computer science class or CIS110. (If you got at least 4 in the AP Computer Science A or AB exam, you will do great.) No specific programming language background is assumed: basic experience with any language (for instance Java, C, C++, VB, Python, Perl, or Scheme) is fine. If you have never programmed before, you should take CIS 110 first.
> CIS 121 Programming Languages and Techniques II
>Course is about Algorithms and Data Structures using the JAVA programming language.
> CIS 240 Introduction to Computer Architecture
>Bottom-up course begins with transistors and simple computer hardware structures, continues with low-level programming using primitive machine instructions, and finishes with an introduction to the C programming language. This course is a broad introduction to all aspects of computer systems architecture and serves as the foundation for subsequent computer systems courses
> CIS 262 Automata, Computability, and Complexity
> CIS 320 Introduction to Algorithms
> CIS 371 Computer Organization and Design
> CIS 380 Computer Operating Systems
> CIS 400-401 Senior Project
>Choose one from the following list:
>>CIS 341 Compilers and Interpreters, 350 Software Design/Engineering, 450 Database and Information Systems, 455 Internet and Web Systems, 460 Interactive Computer Graphics, 553 Networked Systems
> CIS Elective*3
> Tech Elective (Engineering)*2
> Tech Elective*4
> Math Elective*2

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:08:25 2018 No.9456653 File: 423 KB, 490x684, Hardest class in CS.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9456590 >You're fucking retarded. You must not understand computer science. Keep quacking.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:11:02 2018 No.9456655 >>9456600 >"Programming Abstractions" (sorting, stacks, queues, recursion, ...) This is done in the second half of intro to programming 101.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:19:49 2018 No.9456674

>>9456649
>Starts with Java
>No linear algebra, no numerical analysis, no optimization, no calc 3, bullshit discrete probability
>All of "CIS 341 Compilers and Interpreters, 350 Software Design/Engineering, 450 Database and Information Systems, 460 Interactive Computer Graphics" should be required with one networks class.
>No cryptography or security course
>No mandatory elective in some CV/AI/ML/Robotics course

It's shit.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:40:44 2018 No.9456717

>>9456674
>>No cryptography or security course
>>No mandatory elective in some CV/AI/ML/Robotics course
Holy shit, are you the same guy from above? NOBODY wants to or needs to take a fucking security/crypto course. Also, CV/AI/ML courses should be reserved for math-focused majors that want to take them as electives. Those topics are not even close to being useful toward a CS education.

>including Interactive Computer Graphics in a networks class
Are you fucking retarded?

>>Starts with Java
This is perfectly fine. You literally need to learn how to program. What are they supposed to do? Start with Python? That's legitimately batshit retarded. Start with C? No, because then that's another retarded point. C/C++ would be useful for other courses, such as OS or Systems.

However, I agree with the math courses. Optimization is a bit much. Numerical analysis is a bit much. However, the others are good points.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:43:00 2018 No.9456720

>>9456655
>Programming Abstractions (CS106B or CS106X)
CS106B introduces students to many fundamental programming concepts and software engineering techniques using the C++ language. The course will focus on teaching problem solving skills, basic abstract data typs, and recursion. General topics include basic programming methodology (engineering, modularity, documentation), data abstractions (stacks, queues, linked lists, hash tables, binary trees, generics and templates), recursion (procedural, backtracking), searching and sorting, and basic algorithmic analysis (including Big-Oh notation).

Quite literally a full, in-depth data structures course. If you can cover all of that material in half of a course, you're either dropping a ton of it or barely glossing over it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:43:08 2018 No.9456721 File: 222 KB, 950x744, CS math knowledge so wow.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9456717 >NOBODY wants to or needs to take a fucking security/crypto course

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:45:31 2018 No.9456728

>>9456721
Literally covered in an algorithms course. If you think a security course is only RSA, you're stupid. Normal security courses are filled with a bunch of unnecessary details. It's much more of an elective than a core course. In fact, that's why 0% of non-shit programs require a separate security course but provide it as an elective.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 21:57:23 2018 No.9456750

>>9456728
>If you think a security course is only RSA
>projecting

>non-shit programs
All american cs programs are shit.

> Normal security courses are filled with a bunch of unnecessary details
No, they teach you just enough to know how to use cryptography in a non-retarded manner.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 22:00:50 2018 No.9456755 >>9456750 Oh wait one sec, let me go pick up the desire to implement RSA in a non-retarded way. Oh wait, that's way more multi-faceted than you think and a PhD student shouldn't even be trusted with that shit. Post a link to your program's curriculum.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 22:03:00 2018 No.9456759 >>9456755 I said "use" not implement.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 23 22:32:56 2018 No.9456802 Where should I be looking for systems-level programming work? Stuff like embedded/networks/OS interest me a lot, but actual jobs in these fields seem pretty few and far between? But then again I’m an undergrad who’s just started skimming LinkedIn

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 22:59:49 2018 No.9456861

>>9456802
They're uncommon. Look into DevOps positions that deal with IaC (infrastructure as code). They do a lot of scripting to get you introduced to practical work with VMs, OSs, bash, whatever. Then, once you have that experience on your resume, look for companies that require systems experience for android development or automation of processes and stuff like that. It's rather niche at the moment. It's not hot like ML/AI. DevOps is just one example, there are a ton of different small ways to gain gradual experience. Research is probably not the way to go.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 23:17:34 2018 No.9456904

>>9454072
>Theory of Computation is a 3rd year course at Berkeley. Dunno what school you go to.
>>9454073
>This guy is right. Theory of Computation and Algorithm Design are 3rd year courses.
>>9454076
>>9454127

All you need for ToC is discrete math. All you need for discrete math is 6th grade algebra. You could easily do it freshman year.

Anonymous Tue Jan 23 23:20:06 2018 No.9456908

>>9456904
Sure, but it's useful to take discrete math and at least an algorithms course (just for the logical thought process) beforehand. The guy that took ToC freshman year was using trimesters, so it was basically the equivalence of 2nd year courses in the US. You first need to develop a maturity in CS to be able to take ToC. But yeah, it could be taken if you fast tracked.

Anonymous Wed Jan 24 00:38:40 2018 No.9457019

I've never met a CS major that didn't seem like an empty husk of a human being whose soul was replaced with an insatiable hunger for money and muh startups. No better than business majors in that regard.
The fact that op felt the need to say we should like him because he makes more money than us is exactly why I want them all to fuck off.

Anonymous Wed Jan 24 01:55:34 2018 No.9457158
File: 13 KB, 220x293, m.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9452086
>the top universities have the best CS courses
No.

I'm CS and I'm just a normal guy , I love math and proofs. I don't really care about money and know I don't want to work in tech. I kinda enjoy this stuff on its own.

Then again my major is theoretical computer science so I guess I'm not what people here talk about?
The core CS kids I do know all seem to hate math (that discrete math requirement is a doozy for them) despite being way better at programming than me which I find odd. They all live and breathe tissue stuff and either want to be in big silicon Valley place or be a "hackerman".

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 02:05:15 2018 No.9457169 >>9456478 It was when everything was close to the metal, brainlet. Now, everything can be coded at a higher level.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 02:56:13 2018 No.9457225 >>9452161 >DS&A is one course followed by another easy Algorithm Analysis course based on CLRS. So it's 2 courses? You're contradicting yourself.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 06:49:49 2018 No.9457448 >>9456483 Kek no that's CS. CE is basically EE that pretends to be employable by adding a handpick of computer courses at the graduate level that CS sophomores have already taken.

Anonymous Wed Jan 24 08:19:05 2018 No.9457523

>>9456496
Agreed. My Intro to Theory class was a fuckin joke. The prof did all sorts of NP reductions, but said we didn't have to know how to do them ourselves. So every one just played on their phones. I wish I knew theory beyond Turing Machines and the pumping lemmas.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 08:30:59 2018 No.9457529 Will dwarf fortress run better on quantum computer?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 08:39:36 2018 No.9457535 >>9457158 What really sucks is the people that still want to do this in grad school. Sure, these people love CS more than the average joe, but they still want to work at fucking Google, Amazon, etc.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 11:07:26 2018 No.9457725 >>9457448 And yet they're the ones taking all your C""""""S"""""" jobs, because they are better than you in literally every way

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 24 12:15:11 2018 No.9457867 >>9457725 Yes, and evolutionary biologists who took some bioelectricity classes monopolize E"""E""" jobs since they're better than you at absolutely everything.

Anonymous Wed Jan 24 21:48:07 2018 No.9458966

>>9457448
Yes, how will CEs be employable if they don't take 3 semesters of intro java, 2 semesters of intro data structures in java, and 2 semesters systems programming and networking. They must be cray cray if they think they can learn coding by themselves.

Anonymous Wed Jan 24 23:10:14 2018 No.9459150

>>9458966
>3 semesters of intro java
not a thing

>2 semesters of data structures
not a thing

>2 semesters systems programming and networking
This is a thing and thank god it is a thing. If you can't tell the huge difference between the two, then you're probably some dumb math major that doesn't understand CS.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 03:58:21 2018 No.9459483 Wtf is going on with the colleges/universitys in america? In Europe you have to take Real Analysis/Discrete Mathematics and Abstract Algebra when you do a B.Sc in CS.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 05:28:08 2018 No.9459542 File: 972 KB, 1605x1196, sungazing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9458966 >this is what antiCS shills actually believe

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 06:07:46 2018 No.9459570 >>9459542 >>9459150 >taking the b8

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 07:12:58 2018 No.9459608 >>9452234 >Implying you literally can't do that by just holding a half hour interview with the person. If you're not a complete social retard you can tell where someone falls on the competency pyramid.

Anonymous Thu Jan 25 08:07:57 2018 No.9459638

Why would you take courses to learn programming ?????
You have shittons of awesome sources to read, experiment and learn from, education is a meme (in computer "science" even more), tailored the mass, not to make them learn as much as to make them think they did.
Just go read some clever open source code, learn from that and stop being a LAMER.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 10:54:24 2018 No.9459899 >>9459638 >Why would you learn X from someone with a degree, who works in academia and whose salary depends on his proficiency rather than from Rajesh's blog and YT videos?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:21:29 2018 No.9459941 >>9451929 I love CS but in my country that's the easiest science field to get in to. Good thing half people drop out within first months and then another half when we do circuit analysis.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:31:24 2018 No.9459958 File: 352 KB, 595x584, 1498143883961.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9453805¨ >CS >Chemistry II or Biology II

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:32:24 2018 No.9459960 >>9452140 Not him but you literally typed >then why the fuck don't you do it Gee probably because it's fucking boring and I wanted a job that's fun. Pretty comfy right now desu.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:35:02 2018 No.9459968 >>9452682 I like how he didn't even bother to reply. Bitch knew he got BTFO.

Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:37:43 2018 No.9459976

>>9452682
>By the time the doctor is obsolete because of machines, you won't be needed to program or design them anymore
No, because there will always be something more to replace. And machines can never design on same level as humans because humans are irrational and machines are not and never will be.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 11:39:44 2018 No.9459979 >>9452130 t. poorfag or trustfag who has never had to worry about money and therefore doesn't see it's value

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 12:03:48 2018 No.9460034 >>9451929 feels bad that im in a brainlet school lads. The highest math cs majors is Linear Algebra and some calculus based statistics. I think this place was geared to fucking code monkeys

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 12:10:15 2018 No.9460045 >>9452373 I saw the only class my school has, regarding programming, is Visual Basic... so I decided to start learning about Python and C# at home.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 14:17:42 2018 No.9460343 File: 137 KB, 340x340, 729.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9455353 >There's a reason it's called computer science. You HAVE TO apply it to computers.

Anonymous Thu Jan 25 14:38:47 2018 No.9460404

>>9455256
Well after this point, I think the best thing is that you convince yourself :)

>programs will teach you how to code, how networking works, a bit about informatics, and a bit about hardware

code, networking?? informatics?? hardware????

You guys have zero clue what CS is. Most of the courses doesn't require a computer. Most teachers don't know how to code. It is all about computing not computers...

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 14:44:15 2018 No.9460418 >>9457019 this was a great post until you took OP's bait

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 14:47:47 2018 No.9460427 >>9460034 same, at least i did Comp Eng here, though my gpa suffered a bit

Anonymous Thu Jan 25 15:10:58 2018 No.9460463

>>9460404
>>9455286
In my post I'm trying to draw the distinction between what CS is in practice by the many programs that are commonly taught in higher education (in the United States primarily), and what they should be/are in good programs.

Don't get me wrong- I think that if you are interested in the logical mechanisms of computing, and the "theory" to put all of the mechanistic and basal understandings under an umbrella term, then there's nothing wrong with you. /sci/ is often really hard on CS people because of how shitty the programs usually are, but I don't think I know any anons who will say that you aren't a motivated scientific thinker if what your studying is truly computer science as opposed to the more trade-like programming or skills-based computer science programs. Immersing yourself into the logic of computers, and learning how, on a fundamental level, complex computing systems can function, leads to not only a richer understanding of how to design and model applications, but also (I think) a greater understanding of all logic, which can be taken forward in any other study like chemistry, math, or biology in order to be able to solve problems in those fields and learn those fields at a much quicker rate than going in blind. I'm not saying CS is exceptional in this way, but that any proper science will introduce the essential logical tools required for synthesizing the scientific knowledge in any field, and that by mastering one, learning others becomes much easier as a result.

I commend anyone doing CS for any reason other than the typical reason of a high paycheck at the end of a road of learning how to apply certain concepts rather than understand the model holistically. But man you gotta cut some slack for /sci/, since most CShitters they meet in real life and on 4chan are of the non-scientific mindset.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 15:17:29 2018 No.9460469 In Sweden CS is pretty much Electrical Engineering with some programming and algorithms, OS. Wondering if I should have went electrical engineering

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 18:04:48 2018 No.9460708 >>9452130 Poorfag here. I want Money so i can support a Family and have some Security in my life. Mathing and sciencing is just a bonus

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 25 18:06:32 2018 No.9460715 >>9452163 Our School has this curriculum

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 14:15:46 2018 No.9462880 this thread is still alive? lmao

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 17:00:08 2018 No.9463208 >>9462880 was thinking the same thing. I love hearing discussions about CS curriculum so I'm not disappointed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 18:46:17 2018 No.9463422 >>9455286 >tfw when removed some math in our curriculum because some brainlets complained about it The worst thing it's not even a bad uni

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 19:04:26 2018 No.9463468 >>9451929 I actually like CS. What bothers me is that 3/4 CS students are there because they think CS is making shitty android apps and hoping to be the new Gates

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 19:10:53 2018 No.9463485 >>9451929 There are also engies on this board who make the same money as you

Anonymous Fri Jan 26 19:12:56 2018 No.9463487

>>9452053
>All I needed was a Bachelor's.
You don't need a degree at all to get a programmer job, you just need a portfolio. Learning how to program is honestly better done on your own, I firmly view anyone who goes to college to learn how to code as a moron who needs to be babysat and exactly the kind of person unfit to write software.

Anonymous Fri Jan 26 20:18:37 2018 No.9463604

>>9463487
Opinion discarded. You don't realize how many networking opportunities there are in college. It'll teach you stuff you wish you knew about programming, which will make your "portfolio" better.

Unless you're networking like crazy without going to college, it's a dumb career move.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 26 23:08:49 2018 No.9463877 >>9452097 But are you a pussy doctor? No? Lamee

Anonymous Sat Jan 27 02:40:30 2018 No.9464223

I was a chemEng major until I decided to switch to CS. I actually find CS much harder then Chemistry, at least the lower division classes anyway.

I'm far happier now then I was before. I do slightly prefer chemical engineering over CS but I still like it a lot and at least I know I'll have a job after I graduate. I don't get the hate either. It seems people just took an entry class and think the whole major is like it. Upper division is far more rigorous then lower division.

Its a good field. I just hope no one is dumb enough to fall for /sci/ memes and major in physics or math. Then you'd be fucked.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 27 03:58:09 2018 No.9464331 >>9453641 >It's called College Algebra because nobody would pay for a course called The Algebra You Should Have Learned in High School More like Middle School amirite?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 27 16:57:13 2018 No.9465855 >>9464223 >I don't get the hate either. It seems people just took an entry class and think the whole major is like it. You just described /sci/ perfectly. I don't get it either.

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/sci/ - Science & Math