What are /sci/'s thoughts on veganism?

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Anonymous Sat Jan 6 17:32:17 2018 No.9419089 [Reply] [Original]

What are /sci/'s thoughts on veganism?

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 17:37:34 2018 No.9419100

>>9419089
An extreme choice to make when confronted about how important good diet is. Or, a very good choice to make when confronted with the reality about how many trees are cut down as a result of cattle farming and the monstrous amount of water that is wasted. I still love me some steak though.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 17:57:06 2018 No.9419135

>>9419089
Been vegan for 2 years now. I dont eat outside and i always prepare my own food so beeing vegan has been very easy so far.
>>9419100
>An extreme choice to make when confronted about how important good diet is.

vegan diet is perfectly fine or even beneficial if you do it correctly (which is easy). Only problem i have noticed is that you need to eat shit ton of food to maintain your weight.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:23:31 2018 No.9419222

>>9419135
Eat shit tonne of food? What about starches like potatos.
>>9419100
>>9419089
Veganism seems logically the ethically best diet. Never seeb people who have a good argument against it. Seems to always be reactionary against norms. And in the first world its not necessarily extreme any more for many people.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:30:06 2018 No.9419240

I'll be monitoring this thread for the facts on the matter.

Does veganism contribute to a lower carbon footprint and/or is it better for the environment? Compared to what other diet? Are you wasting resources the moment you raise an animal for food, regardless of how you do it?

We know veganism is better than shoving burgers in you all day, but is it the BEST diet? Is the the healthiest diet for us?

Followup on that. Intermittent (every other day) fasting alone can significantly reduce the amount of bad cholesterol and shit if I'm not mistaken, even if you do shove burgers down your throat every other day. How does that impact the answer to the previous question?

How much effort is actually required to go over to a vegan diet? Especially considering the fact that you need to make sure you get your nutrients.

And nobody gives a shit about the moral/ethics of it unless they're a retard.

Will eagerly wait to see these questions answered with citations from scientific journals listed in the master journals list, preferably meta/review studies. If they get answered that is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:34:30 2018 No.9419251 >>9419135 Then how do you make your gainz?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:34:54 2018 No.9419253 >>9419251 Oats.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:37:07 2018 No.9419260
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Shit-tier hippie diet.
>b-but muh animal suffering
You don't even care about starving niggers in Africa and you'd condone subjugating people who disagree with you politically.

>b-but muh health
Enjoy having no balls and lacking vitamin B, soy boy.

>b-but muh vitamin pills
I doubt you even checked if they were truly vegan. Also, enjoy eating cardboard while I eat juicy, delicious mutton.

>b-but
Come on, say it.

>b-b-b-b-
Don't be scared.

>b-but muh chakras and connection to Source in eternal harmonic communion between the five elements and the consciousness of creation
L M F A O
M
F
A
O

>d-d-DELET THIS /POL/

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:37:44 2018 No.9419264

>>9419240
No diets inherently the best. Aslong as it satisfies whatever we need in protein vitamins sugar fat etc. Meat diets can do that. Vegans i think overemphasise how healthy the diet is. Their health benefits could probably be done the same with meat.

Dont think fastings recommended. Easier for the will and your mind/mood just to have a balanced diet.

I think though you shouldnt be thinking about just your own footprint but whether your eating habits are supporting certain industries which create the footprint.

Veganism does have a footprint and isnt all great but probably better than the animal industry. Yes raising animals automatically consumes more resources because you have to feed and water them.

If you want citations look this stuff up yourself.

Why isnt the moral argument relevant? Its probably the best argument. Even in a society with sustainable animal industries veganism is still preferable due to this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:38:55 2018 No.9419269 >>9419260 We arent talking about humans but id be glad to.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:39:41 2018 No.9419270 >>9419260 Calm down.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:49:16 2018 No.9419288

>>9419264
I'm asking these questions here on /sci/ because I expect someone with more knowledge than me on the subject to find the relevant studies on the subject so I won't have to waste time trying to find some studies here and there and still miss a huge chunk of the literature.

Basically I'm hoping to save time since I've considered something like perhaps a vegetarian diet for a while, but I only listen to facts. If the benefits both environmentally and health wise aren't significant compared to a balanced diet which I'm currently on, or a meat restricted diet of some sort, then I have no reason to expend effort trying to conform to such a diet.

Lol, morals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:52:34 2018 No.9419296 >>9419288 You probably could be okay on a meat restricted diet. If you were really interested in reducing ur footpront youd look into non meat products that were potentially damaging too. So you dont care about the moral part?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:54:28 2018 No.9419298 >>9419260 you've clearly found your passion, anon

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:55:52 2018 No.9419300

>>9419260
>this logic

why are you even on /sci/ brainlet?
did some vegetables destabilise your image of masculinity?

Yeah veganism won't solve world hunger, and neither will meat diet
but it can prevent suffering of billions of animals who don't want to die and live under terrible conditions

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:56:52 2018 No.9419301

>>9419135
Veganism isn't maintainable. The biggest flaw in it is you won't experience the problems with it till you're 60 then you're hyper fucked.

>>9419240
There is no evidence at all whatsoever that vegans live longer than meat eaters.

There is also no ethical reason to do it either seeing as how 1000x the amount of animals are killed to bring you clean drinking water than slaughtering one cow to feed 100 people. It is pure moronic stupidity brought on by people's desire to feel part of something

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:58:34 2018 No.9419304 >>9419300 Exactly

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:59:02 2018 No.9419305 >>9419301 >1000x the amount of animals are killed to bring you clean drinking water care to expand? i wasn't aware this was an issue in the west

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 18:59:36 2018 No.9419307 >>9419300 You're against factory farms then not meat eating

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:00:01 2018 No.9419309
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I am Vegan, for 3 reasons, none of them are about cruelty

1. Environment. 10% of wilderness has vanished since 1992, and this will continue to decline. A lot of that is for animal agriculture. The greenhouse emissions of Veganism are also far lower, which is preferable, and the amount of hypoxic dead zones in the ocean is lower if everyone follows a vegan diet. Animal agriculture has also created a massive collapse in genetic diversity amongst species because we've replaced all the habitats with fields for cattle.

2. Overfishing. I can't eat fish. We are collapsing the oceans by fishing down the food web, taking the tops of the trophic chain away then continuing to overfish the stuff that is left for oil and fish farm food. Deep sea fishing is becoming a thing due to demand which targets very slow breeding deep sea fish that cannot sustain population when faced with our technologies.

3. Antibiotic resistance. This is primarily driven by animal farming on an industrial scale and is something that could quickly spiral out of control. This alone is enough of a reason to stop eating factory farmed meat at the very least. Fish farms have the same issue

I am aware there are healthier diets but I'd rather take a couple of supplements than support the damage done by this industry.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:01:37 2018 No.9419314

Reminder that studies show there's no significant difference between caged chickens and free roaming ones. In fact, caged ones are more healthy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2504766/Free-range-ISNT-better-factory-farmed-Why-caged-chickens-stressed-lives-outdoor-counterparts.html

If you truly care about the welfare of chickens, LOCK 'EM UP!

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:04:58 2018 No.9419319

>>9419301
Whats the problem with it if you can replicate all the nutrients you can from a meat diet.

Its impossible to be perfectly morally consistent or aware but you can minimise harm done and think about the issues you know about. Atleast be mindful. No not eating meat isnt gonna stop animal deaths right now but it means your not advocating it and getting more people to do it creates long term change.

Its better to make little steps than none at all.

And for that clean water example i know nothing about but i still think we have to ensure society and people are healthy. Sometimes animals do come second thats true but doesnt mean there cant be a minimisation of harm.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:05:02 2018 No.9419320

>>9419309
1. forests are growing or stable in the developed world, where almost all food products are made
http://www.earth-policy.org/indicators/C56/forests_2012

2. what about farmed fish and shellfish?

3. certainly is an issue, but the future of anti-bacterial medicine is in viral treatments, not antibiotics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:07:51 2018 No.9419326 >>9419307 Good point. No eating meat (even humans) isnt inherently wrong for me

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:13:00 2018 No.9419334 >>9419309 clicking applause

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:13:44 2018 No.9419337 >>9419319 Grow up. Life is killing. Even trees murder their own offspring by denying them sunlight. Vegans live in fairyland

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:13:53 2018 No.9419338

>>9419320
1. This doesn't change the impact of greenhouse gas emissions, though, and the Amazon is an irreplaceable jewel so I don't want to risk funding the damages being done. I'm pretty sure that many of the grains grown there are exported to other countries for cattle feed anyway

2. Farmed fish are almost always Salmon, Tuna etc, which are high trophic level fish and require fish feed, ie, they require the continued fishing of already exploited fisheries. These farms also contribute to dead zones because the fish shit so much into the narrow bands of water. I would consider eating farmed mussels and shellfish IF it could be demonstrated that these farms are not contributing to species invasions (another major issue fish farming causes) and don't suffer disease (diseased shellfish is a disgusting thing to consider eating). I would consider eating farmed, low trophic level fish that are being fed without exploiting the oceans (ie through the fishing of ecosystem essential krill in the Southern Ocean). I would also eat farmed freshwater fish provided they could prove environmental friendliness or fish hand caught by an angler (not 'line caught' as this can mean a longline fishing method). As it stands it is easier to just avoid fish altogether.

3. When we have effective treatments against AB resistant bacteria I can reconsider this position, but even then, there are potential outbreaks of other diseases from the horrific factory farming conditions (bird flus, prion diseases etc)

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:15:22 2018 No.9419341 >>9419337 Why cant we minimise it. We do it in human society dont we?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:17:41 2018 No.9419343 >>9419338 If you could would you specifically check into where you got your food? Chickenfag up there makes a point. Certain types of farm or whatever can have the label of sustainability but it may depend on the specific farm sometimes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:19:34 2018 No.9419347 >>9419341 We're not demigods. We're animals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:21:38 2018 No.9419352 >>9419347 So you wouldnt object to somw guy dropping through your window and slaughtering you coz "life is killing"? Maybe youre a demigod to him.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:21:55 2018 No.9419354

>>9419343
Yes, and if I was a bit richer I would probably try to find local, sustainable meat to eat. I'd need to think about the issue more though, as there are probably a lot of things I haven't considered, and my position here isn't permanent, I just think that Veganism for me, ethically, feels like a risk management thing (as I know for a fact that the things I have mentioned are major issues, and avoiding meat altogether gives the best chance of not contributing to them)

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:23:49 2018 No.9419358 >>9419352 You and your strawman have a good life.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:27:19 2018 No.9419367 >>9419358 All im saying is its not necessarily that hard and your life is killing argument is the wrong one to defend yourself with because you dont make a distinction with the fact that people dont kill eachother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:30:26 2018 No.9419369 >>9419354 Wheres the line? Why not become oneof those people that live on a jar of waste per year and grow all your own veg in a bin?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:32:01 2018 No.9419373 >>9419367 It's an obvious distinction. Another one is humanitarian ways of killing animals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:34:39 2018 No.9419377 >>9419373 Humane I mean.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:35:15 2018 No.9419379 >>9419373 Why is it obvious? The point is why should living things die unnecessarily.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:36:11 2018 No.9419381 >>9419367 Men eat meat Men need this food efficiently, and thus automated slaughterhouses exist No amount of debating will ever change this

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:37:59 2018 No.9419384 >>9419381 I doubt you can predict the future. Expectations are continually superseded. If men dont have to eat meat to survive though, are slaughterhouses and its suffering necessary?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:38:11 2018 No.9419386 >>9419379 Because they taste good, and that makes it necessary. Also, we give them excellent lives with food and shelter, then even gift them a dignified death. It's way more than we get, and you know it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:39:26 2018 No.9419389 There's a disturbing lack of citations so far...

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:45:33 2018 No.9419402

>>9419386

Lool way more than we get?

And i wouldnt say it gives them excellent lives.

The point is living things that suffer should be able to live and not be killed. You would agree with that in terms of yourself.
Plus dignified in your opinion. Does the animal understand it as dignified?

Tasting good isnt a good argument because someone could argue that about humans.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:48:36 2018 No.9419407

>>9419384
We are hunter gatherer animals, men are biologically designed to hunt down meat and slam it down for protein
If humanity continues to lose masculinity then perhaps something will change, but I doubt it'd look anything like the fantasy utopia you have in mind

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:50:46 2018 No.9419411

>>9419402
They understand they never get torn to pieces by wolves. But the point is they don't understand much to begin with, so they're easy to satisfy. And they will they regardless one way or another unless I've missed something and cattle, sheep, etc are actual immortal crystalline beings beyond our comprehension.

Tasting good is an excellent argument. Humans are more intelligent and conscious than every animal on the planet, and even if they weren't and tasted good, we now know that we aren't nutritious at all, so the argument is still moot.

Sweating yet?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:51:47 2018 No.9419413 >>9419411 How the hell did "die" autocorrect to they? Fucking hell.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:52:35 2018 No.9419418 >>9419089 You have enzymes to digest protein for a reason anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:53:01 2018 No.9419419 Theres no food like meat. It just tastes so good, and has so much nutrients. Nothing ever compares to it. Although i do understand we probably should eat less meat for energy reasons.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:56:34 2018 No.9419428

>>9419407
Then why arent you a hunter gatherer?

Biological design isnt a valid notion i think. Its just an easy way of describing biology when in reality there is a degeneracy in the types of niches an organisms can live in. Theres no specific design and unexpected organism-environment couplings probably occur often.

And an is doesnt necessarily mean an ought. Historical reference poonts are arbitrary especially as humans arent a historically discrete lineage and in our past and even now weve lived on many different diets.The things humans do in the past doesnt justify behaviour now. We did bad things in the past.

Again why eat meat if unnecessary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:59:47 2018 No.9419435 >>9419428 It's not unnecessary though. It tastes good.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 19:59:48 2018 No.9419436 >>9419418 >on /sci/ >thinks meat is the ultimate source of protein >probably doesn't even know what protein is i kekd anon, even goddamn broccoli contains more protein/g then most of meat

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:01:41 2018 No.9419439

>>9419411
No they dont understand. And if you had the animals interests in heart why not just provide them the stress free lifestyle wihout death. And as is well known and chicken fag said. Their lives arent ideal. Lots of bad shit happens.

Understanding and intelligence isnt an argument. Just shows malevolent manipulation. We look after dumb children and disabled people. Would you advocate a higher being too? Intelligence doesnt necessarily link to volition agency suffering etc.

Lol we not nutritious? Apes are delicacies in some countries. We can farm humans to be nutritious too. Tbh you havent supported your view on our nutritiousness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:02:00 2018 No.9419440 >>9419436 yeah broccoli contains 1/10 more protein than meat per gram

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:03:53 2018 No.9419443 >>9419435 Instead of pussyfooting just say you dont care about animals. Your personal preference rather than being illogical. You accused me of strawman somehow earlier lol

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:04:26 2018 No.9419445

>>9419439
>provide them stress free lifestyles without death
Talk about unnecessary! And a waste! I want to wat their flesh, silly. They will die. We can make it painless. Everyone wins. Intelligence also links directly to agency, suffering, etc, so yeah you can just rationalize that very important consideration away.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:06:03 2018 No.9419446 >>9419445 No it doesnt logically at all lol. We demonstrate that in our own societies. Then why dont we kill humans when its necessary?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:06:03 2018 No.9419447 >>9419439 We're not nutritious according to science. Deal with it. https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/6/15189678/prehistoric-cannibalism-humans-calories-nutrition-neanderthal-behavior

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:07:29 2018 No.9419452 >>9419446 Now you're just being silly. You know I'm right. Also, assisted suicide is a thing, and I'm for it.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:08:20 2018 No.9419456

>>9419411
Nah humans still love eating meat, including all the ones with higher testosterone than you that have a higher chance of reproducing anyways

>>9419428
>Then why aren't you a hunter gatherer

I kill animals and eat them anon, although not all of my meals are obtained this way, real life men still exist, you should try it, you may like it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:08:22 2018 No.9419457 >>9419447 By the logic of this article we are more nutritious than lamb or chicken. You clearly havent read it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:09:23 2018 No.9419460 >>9419452 Assisted suicide is consensual and still complicated. Lol unlesss you give me an argument saying im silly wont do anything. Jist makes you look stupid.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:11:06 2018 No.9419462

>>9419456
Humans can love things that are wrong anon. And who cares about testosterone or masculinity. I might be a faggot or a woman. Not an argument.

You killing animals has nothing to do woth hunter gatherers. And yes i might like it but doesnt make it morally clean or right.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:14:30 2018 No.9419466 >>9419462 There's nothing wrong with people having different genes, I brought that up because people that prefer meat will keep reproducing, and so a vegan future for humanity doesn't seem likely at the moment

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:14:43 2018 No.9419467 >>9419460 Consent also implies intelligence. How will you solve this cognitive dissonance, anon? Baka.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:15:43 2018 No.9419470

I want to respect their choice but the moment they start pushing towards outlawing meat-eating, which they certainly will, then it'll basically become the next religious war. I already know it's gonna happen that's why I hate and want them to fuck off, let me slaughter animals and eat meat in peace you faggots.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:16:29 2018 No.9419472 This is why I hoped morals/ethics would be ignored. You're just spouting worthless opinions at each other, wasting time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:21:42 2018 No.9419487 >>9419467 Does it? A stupid animal cant let you do something consensually? A rat wont let you know when it doesnt like something?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:22:04 2018 No.9419488 >>9419472 As if you come this board to be productive

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:22:50 2018 No.9419492 >>9419466 So eating meat or being vegan is a genetic thing? Hmm fighees how all vegans come feom vegan families with vegan parents.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:23:56 2018 No.9419495 >>9419488 I like to think of it as minimum effort productivity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:26:45 2018 No.9419500 >>9419470 But do you see nothing bad about meat eating at all?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:29:46 2018 No.9419506 >>9419500 It hurts the feelings of those who personally are offended by it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:35:00 2018 No.9419513 The greatest arrogance of vegans is assuming that animals suffer simply by virtue of being food.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:36:30 2018 No.9419518 File: 143 KB, 600x600, think.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Would vegans go back to eating meat if farm animals were engineered to not feel any suffering?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:40:41 2018 No.9419522 >>9419506 Ha so you dont see anything bad about hurting an animal okay :p

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:43:03 2018 No.9419527 >>9419522 I wasn't aware we were torturing animals before we killed them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:44:26 2018 No.9419531 >>9419500 No. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OQ90cKZoM4

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:45:39 2018 No.9419533

>>9419513
I think they assume they suffer by virtue of being animals like us.
>>9419518
Good question. Maybe. Eating meat isnt inherently wrong. Maybe its more complicated though. Interesting is where is the fine line where something is deserving of moral consideration. If we build an a.i. or even a simulation that is close enough to humans does that deserve it? How do you define a living thing. If this didnt feel pain would it still deserve our consideration? Is pain all that is deserving of consideration? Intuitively no because we wd try to protect those that dont feel pain i think if they were human. But would we if they were made and not born? Hard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:49:10 2018 No.9419538 >>9419527 Ill include kill in that. And i dont think animal farming or hunting is painless anyway. >>9419531 Lol looks relatively humane. Not the point though. And im not offended if you thought i would be. Im just reasoning.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:50:22 2018 No.9419543

>>9419089
Veganism is actually a capitalist conspiracy. Let me explain why. My girlfriend is a vegan and she's a normie so she browses facebook constantly and sometimes I'll just lay on her tits and see what she's seeing. The first time I did this I was fucking shocked because every 5 posts on her feed are either PETA propaganda showing animals getting slaughtered or capitalist propaganda trying to sell her food that is supposedly good for the environment and animals. (And for some reason, the capitalist propaganda always comes right after PETA's propaganda. So we know that facebook has some really fucking advanced emotional manipulation AI.)

After seeing this a couple of times I confronted her about her veganism and she admitted that she really wishes to eat meat because it tastes so good. And she also hates veganism because stuff like vegan cheese costs 10 times what normal cheese costs and she isn't rich at all.

That settled it for me. Veganism is a capitalist meme. Think about it. The food market is stale. The best and most efficient methods for producing food have been discovered long ago and are used by the biggest companies. So how does a new player actually compete in the market? By telling their customers that if they eat traditional food they are literally HITLER. Then, to pay for all this extra marketing (funding PETA) they raise the prices of their bullshit food. AND IT WORKS. I honestly consider my girlfriend to be a victim. This is psychological manipulation. This is emotional manipulation. Veganism and vegan propaganda should be outright illegal. PETA should be banned from all social media, and vegan food companies should be punished for this kind of punitive marketing.

So my take is this. If you are a vegan, either you've been brainwashed by a corporation looking to make a quick buck, or you are one of them and you are a SICK FUCK.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:51:00 2018 No.9419544 >>9419531 Tbh though i know that the animals shouldnt really be killed in the presence of other animals. Definitely the case in animal testing. Think types of farms might aim for that too depending on context.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:53:32 2018 No.9419547 >>9419543 I agree it is a capitalist meme but producing anything is and im not sure that the products were produced before the propaganda. Makes no economic sense. Im sure some vegans are vegans from thinking rather than emotional manipulation though.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:56:10 2018 No.9419552

>>9419538
I don't think death is particularly bad (or good), especially when it comes to animals whose whole purpose and existence is to feed us, so I don't feel anything when I see them getting killed without suffering. Didn't post that to offend you, it just looks extremely normal to me maybe it does to you.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:58:07 2018 No.9419557

>>9419547
>Im sure some vegans are vegans from thinking
No, I consider this to be impossible. Vegan food tastes like fucking shit so there has to be a deep rationalization behind it. It is either "I make big fucking money from vegan corporations funding me to keep blogging about vegan health bullshit" or "HITLER ATE MEAT. I AM NOT HITLER. PLEASE FORGIVE ME LITTLE COWS I DID NOT MEAN TO EAT YOU AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 20:58:36 2018 No.9419559

>>9419089
Hate the movement but they're right about it being healthy. Why eat 10 different meat replacements instead of just a little meat? And there's a lot of misinformation/exaggeration, highly biased. Yeah vegetables are good for you, everyone and their mother knows this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:10:56 2018 No.9419592 >>9419552 Nah doesnt offend at all. I dont get mushy over animals dieing. Just feels logical to me. People dont cry about rekt videos do they. It looks painless. >>9419557 Wasnt hitler vegetatian?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:11:58 2018 No.9419595 >>9419559 No more healthy than a balanced diet.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:15:36 2018 No.9419604

>>9419592
>Wasnt hitler vegetatian?
Who cares. I am obviously exaggerating the propaganda. But if you want to see the real deal just go to PETA's facebook. They post literal gore there and for some reason ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) facebook allows it. Some of it is so fucked up that if I were to turn it into a .webm and post it here, I'd get banned.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:22:05 2018 No.9419612 >>9419604 the zucc is too busy getting the succ to moderate

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:24:42 2018 No.9419615 >>9419604 Post or didnt happen. God bless capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:26:17 2018 No.9419621 File: 26 KB, 411x412, 1478835628962.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9419543 What is this post even? >By telling their customers that if they eat traditional food they are literally HITLER So plants are not traditional food?

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:32:15 2018 No.9419630

>>9419615
You have free access to facebook motherfucker.

>>9419621
By traditional food I mean food that is just food. It is not marketed with some bullshit moral message about saving the environment and helping animals.

Plants are traditional food, but here it gets interesting. There are two types of plants. There are mass produced plants (the once I'd say are traditional) and then there are hipster bullshit plants grown by "local farmers" that cost 10 times what the traditional plants cost. Vegan propaganda will make you buy the latter.

Also, I remembered something that adds to the Hitler thing. PETA published a video on facebook about how one of the methods of killing [some little animal, don't remember which one] was by putting them inside a gas chamber. And they were undercover interviewing the farmer and they asked them to show them. Then the farmer grabbed 5 of the little animals and put them in the gas chamber to fucking die. Then the farmer took them out and checked to see if they have died. The guy said "Oh, look. This one is still alive. This sometimes happens. In this case, you just break its neck to end it quick." and then, on camera, the guy breaks the fucking neck of the little animal.

JESUUUUUUUUS
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

Wasn't m00t working on Facebook? Why does he allow this filth?

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:33:43 2018 No.9419632

>>9419089
a shit diet that only keeps us from evolving our intelligence and brains
had we stayed with eating plants we would still be retarded monkeys throwing poop at each other
fats and amino acids in meat are what helped us evolve intelligence
all vegans should be eradicated for preventing the humankind from evolving

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:37:55 2018 No.9419641 >>9419630 are you aware of how crooked PETA is? they're like next-level evil

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:41:39 2018 No.9419649 >>9419630 That has nothing to do with veganism though. That's just organic food and they sell organic animal products too.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:43:30 2018 No.9419654

>>9419641
Well, I've never been too aware of social movements but I can say that I'm not comfortable calling people evil. I'd say PETA is sick but I don't know if evil. At the end of the day, we are all capitalist. And we know money talks. It is clear that PETA is simply the propaganda arm of these food companies, and it is PETA's job to produce this propaganda. It is what puts food on their table. It is what feeds their families. They have to do what they have to do. But I'd say they are sick. But not evil. That is why I think we should target the corporations, not PETA. Once there are no more vegan corporations funneling money into PETA, it will disappear so fast you won't even notice it. That is how capitalism works, after all.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:45:32 2018 No.9419657

>>9419649
"Organic" "animal" products are simply a gateway to veganism. They are a gateway into making you feel guilty about what you eat. It is simply more propaganda and more manipulation.

Clearly, these companies noticed that most people are not willing to immediately buy 50$ vegan cheese slices so they added the gateway. Why not buy 30$ "organic" "grass-fed" "non-GMO" "non-antibiotic" cheese instead? That's right, EAT. EAT AND FEEL GUILTY, YOU'LL BE MOVING TO THE 50$ CHEESE IN NO TIME.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:51:52 2018 No.9419666

I will cast the first paper then.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26853923/
>CONCLUSIONS: This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (-25%) and incidence from total cancer (-8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (-15%) of incidence from total cancer.

The health part is now settled. If you want to be healthier, become a vegetarian.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:53:18 2018 No.9419668 >>9419630 I was compared to hitler once for gassing rats in a lab.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:53:19 2018 No.9419669 >>9419654 PETA isn't tied to food companies and shit they're fueled by pure ideology (like ISIS) Maybe 'evil' is a harsh word but who gives a fuck this is (pseudo)anonymous there's a Penn and Teller episode on PETA

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:55:42 2018 No.9419672 >>9419657 If youre not a communist then shut the fuck up with ur whining

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:56:09 2018 No.9419674

>>9419668
Well, I am not hating on gassing animals. It is okay to kill animals. What I am not okay with is filming it and putting it on the internet. It is gross. If a farmer does it, it is okay. It is his job. If you do it, that's cool. It was for science. But don't make me see that disgusting shit. Keep it to yourself.

>>9419669
>PETA isn't tied to food companies and shit they're fueled by pure ideology (like ISIS)

Sure sure. But let me tell you a secret: Ideology does not pay the bills. PETA has donors and thus their main concern is protecting the interests of their donors. The same is true for ISIS. ISIS has donors, and their main concern is protecting the interests of those donors. Maybe there is some ideology sprinkled it, but that is just the rationalization. That is just what they tell themselves to be able to sleep at night.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:56:55 2018 No.9419678 >>9419666 Youre a naive fuck mate. Critical thinking cuckface.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:57:11 2018 No.9419679 >>9419672 >If you are not a communist you cannot criticize corporations Wew lad, we have an intellectual over here. Yeah! Why bother trying to improve capitalism!

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:57:12 2018 No.9419680

>>9419089
Veganism is an extreme. As such, I don't respect it. I understand the impact of livestock farming and agree that t needs to be cut back. That doesn't mean completely stopping. Eating meat is an easy way to get necessary nutrients, even though you can get these through diet planning with veganism. But most people are too stupid and lazy to adhere to dietary rules.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:58:53 2018 No.9419681 >>9419679 Look at all the other ways capitalisms corrupt. Youre just doing this hear coz vegans offend ur boipussy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 21:59:05 2018 No.9419682 >>9419666 yeah yeah yeah but medical research isn't perfect there's still some doubt to be had

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:00:09 2018 No.9419683 >>9419680 How do we cut it back without government regulation

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:01:06 2018 No.9419687

Second paper is thrown now. Showing vegetarian diets have the most benefit with regards to the environment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094759/#!po=21.4286
>The largest environmental benefits across indicators were seen in those diets which most reduced the amount of animal-based foods, such as vegan (first place in terms of benefits for two environmental indicators), vegetarian (first place for one indicator), and pescatarian (second and third place for two indicators).

>>9419678
>I can make systematic review literature disappear with insults, watch
Mkay

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:02:01 2018 No.9419690
File: 48 KB, 450x600, dog.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9419657
You are really invested in this theory are you? Any kind of food is produced by someone. So you can accuse everyone with any opinion on nutrition of propaganda. This leads to nothing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:04:10 2018 No.9419694 >>9419687 Mate they dont consider that a balanced diet with meat can be as healthy. They just compare vegan diets to controls. Thats my criticism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:04:47 2018 No.9419696 >>9419681 Nigga, are you gonna tell me every attempt at communism hasn't absolutely been corrupted beyond repair?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:06:06 2018 No.9419698 >>9419687 I believe this but technology will save us It's not the consumers fault or responsibility anyway

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:06:39 2018 No.9419699 >>9419694 How was I supposed to magically know what your actual criticism is? At any rate, throw a paper showing a "balanced diet" is equal to that of a vegan one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:09:13 2018 No.9419708 >>9419696 Im not condoning communism

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:10:29 2018 No.9419711
File: 99 KB, 1104x910, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9419089
Yes it is the best diet if done healthfully. Many don't do it healthfully though and are only concerned with the ethical aspect. However vegans are still the only group in USA which on average fall within the <25 (overweight) BMI [1]. The best diet is obviously one which is high in vitamins and nutrients as opposed to empty calories of fat/carbs. There is no debate on that, so meat/butter/sugar based diets are out of the question. A diet should be based on high antioxidant, vitamin+fiber rich whole grains, legumes, vegetables, and fruits. No one argues that these foods are very healthy and you should base your diet on them. All health authorities recommend this.

The dispute is whether milk, meat, and fish should be included in the diet for health. I'll say a few things: There is no issue getting all vitamins, minerals, proteins, and essential fats on a vegan diet. Processed meat is a carcinogen [2] (Group 1, known, they are as sure it causes cancer as they are sure plutonium does), and red meat is a probable carcinogen.

>Processed meat is defined as any meat preserved by smoking, curing or salting, or with the addition of
chemical preservatives; examples include bacon, salami, sausages, hot dogs or processed deli or luncheon
meats. [3]

Humans are the only animal which drinks milk of another species. Dairy isn't necessary to meet your daily needs for calcium as evidenced by pic related.

Fish do indeed have Omega 3s, but also have mercury. It would be much safer to get Omega 3s from a source like Flax seeds, which also have fiber.

That's all I feel like typing. I'll post more if someone argues.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19351712
2. https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization-says-processed-meat-causes-cancer.html
3. http://www.doe.in.gov/sites/default/files/nutrition/criteria-guides.pdf

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:13:00 2018 No.9419716 >>9419699 Its not rocket science. Aslong as you get required protein fat vitamins etc its fine.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:18:26 2018 No.9419727

>>9419288
Your summation is correct. Stop eating meat if being part of an ethical dietary movement appeals to you, or if eating meat interferes with your health. Otherwise, eat <i>less</i> meat, which is a simultaneous step in both directions, with the distinct up-side of not turning into a dipshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:19:16 2018 No.9419730 >>9419716 >Its not rocket science Nutrition is actually less studied than rocket science.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:27:27 2018 No.9419748 >>9419730 Im aware. Its called an expression. Infact i did a bsc in rocket science.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:29:14 2018 No.9419751 >>9419711 True but none of that says you cant be healthy and eat meat or dairy.. or even that taking out meat doesnt naje a noticeable difference.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:30:12 2018 No.9419752

Hold your horses a bit on environmental impact of a vegan diet. Or at least food sustainability.
https://www.elementascience.org/articles/10.12952/journal.elementa.000116/
>This study focuses attention on some underappreciated concerns. While agricultural land is often discussed in the aggregate, our analysis shows that accounting for the partitioning of land between grazing land, cultivated cropland, and perennial cropland has a strong influence on estimates of carrying capacity. Indeed, we demonstrate that under a range of land use conditions, diets with low to modest amounts of meat outperform a vegan diet, and vegetarian diets including dairy products performed best overall. Finally, the analysis illustrates how carrying capacity can be used to measure the potential food output of agricultural land. Moreover, the model presented herein provides a basis for exploring an even wider range of diet scenarios, and to further examine which diets make most efficient use of available land.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:33:52 2018 No.9419763 >>9419752 V. Interest

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:34:02 2018 No.9419765

>>9419711
and literally what's the point if you can just eat meat and get 2x the nutrition in 1/10th the amount? inb4 cancer, i don't care about some funny 0,0001% risk of cancer increase
70g protein is barely enough to keep my muscles from wasting lmao, and definitely not enough to build them
and why are you not showing your carbs? how much did you eat? 400g? enjoy your diabetes soyboy
literally kys vegan cucks, accept the fact that humans aren't monkeys

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:35:36 2018 No.9419768 Not a scientific paper, but I'm interested in the book discussed in the article. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:36:44 2018 No.9419772 >>9419765 Just have a soy protein powder.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:37:45 2018 No.9419773 >>9419772 or just eat meat which is 10x cheaper than soyboy powder

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:40:36 2018 No.9419781 >>9419768 Very interest nut meats will taste less good.

Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:41:28 2018 No.9419785

>>9419768
>Overall, Fairlie estimates that farmed animals produce about 10% of the world's emissions: still too much, but a good deal less than transport. He also shows that many vegetable oils have a bigger footprint than animal fats, and reminds us that even vegan farming necessitates the large-scale killing or ecological exclusion of animals: in this case pests. On the other hand, he slaughters the claims made by some livestock farmers about the soil carbon they can lock away.

>The meat-producing system Fairlie advocates differs sharply from the one now practised in the rich world: low energy, low waste, just, diverse, small-scale. But if we were to adopt it, we could eat meat, milk and eggs (albeit much less) with a clean conscience. By keeping out of the debate over how livestock should be kept, those of us who have advocated veganism have allowed the champions of cruel, destructive, famine-inducing meat farming to prevail. It's time we got stuck in.

How will soyboys ever recover?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:41:51 2018 No.9419787 >>9419773 Loool u not making $200,000 pa femcuck? Too poor to sonal your virtues? Okay bae.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:49:57 2018 No.9419802 And? Have we learned something so far?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 22:55:18 2018 No.9419810 >>9419802 that vegcucks make faulty arguments and there is no reason to go vegan

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 23:12:29 2018 No.9419840 >>9419785 >but a good deal less than transport Wouldn't be so if we didn't have fucking carcucks and corporate lobbying everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 23:19:13 2018 No.9419853 >>9419810 Hold me back coz ill slap a bitch faggot

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 23:23:05 2018 No.9419867 >>9419853 watch out, you'll break these noodle arms soyboy

>>	Anonymous Sat Jan 6 23:43:16 2018 No.9419910 >>9419867 Atleast im not a gayboy faggot.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 00:18:44 2018 No.9419961 File: 1.73 MB, 640x480, 1515293426450.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 06:29:31 2018 No.9420372
File: 95 KB, 1000x879, vegan.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

MUH NUTRITION is hilarious bullshit.
Getting your needs on a Vegan diet is very easy
Pic related is what I ate yesterday. Apart frm B12, which most animals have to be supplemented anyway, there is nothing I cannot get from my food, apart from Vitamin D and I live in a Northern Climate (Ireland) so I cannot get that outside

Meals FYI

>Breakfast
100g of Oatmeal with 16g Cocoa Powder
300g Steamed Broccoli (used as spoon)
B12 supplement

>Lunch
200g Kale, 200g Spinach, Sea Salt and sliced Banana salad
Turmeric dressing (Soy Sauce, White Vinegar, Turmeric, Flour)
1 small head of lettuce

>Dinner
200g Lentils, 200g Frozen Peas, with a sauce made from water, 30g Peanut Butter and 1 tbsp chili powder, with crushed Brazil Nuts sprinkled on top, onion and garlic fried in olive oil

>Snacks
Walnuts, 30g
400ml Almond Milk

Just over 2400 calories, and I am a cage fighter so I know for a fact I need this much food.
Since I changed to a Vegan diet I have had a record of 5 wins and 15 defeats, before that I had lost 29 fights in a row. Would still batter the pussies here though lol.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 07:54:35 2018 No.9420463 >>9419513 I think they suffer because of their pain receptors and amydalae, if I'm honest

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 08:13:02 2018 No.9420476 >>9419309 THANKS DOC

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 08:48:09 2018 No.9420525 >>9419961 I wish the bitch a slow death

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 08:55:08 2018 No.9420538 >>9419301 >Veganism isn't maintainable. The biggest flaw in it is you won't experience the problems with it till you're 60 then you're hyper fucked. Why? Missing out on heart attacks meat-eaters get and thus having to suffer a longer life?

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:00:48 2018 No.9420547

>>9419337
>Even trees murder their own offspring by denying them sunlight.
No, they don't. They use various methods (e.g. "wings" of maple seeds, or animals/humans eating their fruits) to transport their seeds away from them, so that their offspring doesn't grow right next to them

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:06:03 2018 No.9420553 >>9420463 You know the rules: No complicated words. Now get out

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:10:44 2018 No.9420561 >>9419222 >ethically best haha, what a retard

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:24:02 2018 No.9420586 >>9419300 >but it can prevent suffering of billions of animals who don't want to die and live under terrible conditions You don't care about the bacteria you crush underfoot as you walk around, why care about stuff you kill for food?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:29:19 2018 No.9420596 >>9419319 Why not just eat meat and argue/fight for a reduced human population? That also solves a lot of other problems, like pollution and global warming.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:36:03 2018 No.9420610 >>9420586 Because one of these things I can change easily (it's literally JUST a decision you have to make, nothing more), while the other one I cannot change?

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:36:24 2018 No.9420611

>>9419604
>I am obviously exaggerating the propaganda
Don't expect anyone to listen to you if you're going to do this, especially when you're completely correct: Hitler was a veggie. If your political opponents admitted to exaggeration or even outright lies (like you) for propaganda, you know you'd explode at them, and bring it up at every chance.
t. unapologetic meat eater

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:38:19 2018 No.9420616 >>9420596 >Why not do two unethical things instead of zero? And no, it would not solve global warming and pollution, unless you want to reduce the human population of First-World countries

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:38:39 2018 No.9420618 >>9420610 that isn't a ethical argument -- why is killing bacteria when walking more acceptable than killing animals for food?

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:42:27 2018 No.9420624

>>9420618
Because we can avoid one and not the other? Should I repeat it a few more times?

This is like asking
>Why is killing in self-defense more acceptable than killing for fun?
>Why is killing when you're only other option is dying more acceptable than killing for convenience?

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:46:26 2018 No.9420630

It's not my fault I can buy meat and dairy at the store. If it's that bad (for the environment or otherwise) it shouldn't be allowed. The only real argument is that it's healthier but I'm not completely convinced a vegan diet is better than a food guide diet. You can't really juxtapose vegans and nonvegans because no vegans includes people that just don't give a shit about their diets.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 09:54:40 2018 No.9420644 >>9420630 The thing is, disallowing goods that people are used to is a really hard thing in a democratic country, even when it's absolutely obvious they are harmful and the positive effect of a ban can be proven >alcohol >tobacco >guns (in the US)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 10:04:10 2018 No.9420654 >>9420644 but food products are different Just change the health standards or whatever. I'm not in charge of this, it's not my problem.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 10:19:58 2018 No.9420674 >>9419089 I'm pajeet, ask me anything

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 10:46:32 2018 No.9420713

>>9419518
To expand on this question, what if farm animals were engineered to feel nothing but pleasure?

For example, pain literally equals pleasure for them. Eating equals pleasure, etc.

Would it be morally wrong to raise animals who feel no suffering and only feel pleasure for food?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 10:48:07 2018 No.9420716 >>9419543 THAT's what settled it for you? Do you have like no critical thinking skills at all, or just like close to zero?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 13:39:17 2018 No.9421041 >>9419260 why do you think anyone who is vegetarian cannot care about people starving in africa? i assume anyone who care about animals also care about people starving. your argument is pretty dumb

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 13:51:19 2018 No.9421064

>>9419089
Objectively a healthy option since most modern diseases are linked to non-vegan diets, but vegans are so god damn annoying about the moral aspect that people are never going to convert to it.

I can understand feeling empathy for a pig, even a cow, but a fucking chicken? They're pieces of shit.

The anti-dairy aspect of it is a bit impractical due to dairy being one of the cheapest methods of getting protein.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 13:53:45 2018 No.9421073 >>9419260 >being so high in estrogen that you compensate for it by having a diet that kills you

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 13:54:48 2018 No.9421076 >>9419264 Meat diets will, 100% of the time, give you more dietary cholesterol than you need.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 18:27:48 2018 No.9421636 >>9421076 But is it harmful? Does the rest of your lifestyle and other factors placate it. Thats the question. Look at michael phelps. Im saying its not necessary to kick out all meat to be happy and healthy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 18:29:13 2018 No.9421639 >>9421076 Even if it does give you more cholestorol than the average person needs

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:10:46 2018 No.9421927 File: 155 KB, 756x576, TEMP.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9419407 >We are hunter gatherer animals, men are biologically designed to hunt down meat and slam it down for protein lol sure kiddo

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:21:39 2018 No.9421959 >>9421927 Anon, i think you might be autistic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:23:51 2018 No.9421966 >>9421927 Go back in the forest and continue your fruit diet, while renouncing all technology invented by man. Then i would respect you, maybe.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:41:46 2018 No.9422004 >>9421927 https://veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/

Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:56:32 2018 No.9422029

>>9421927
This picture is literally as bad as the hunter gathering thing. The reason why his view is stupid is that theres no teleology in nature. Infact quite a few primates eat meat that you would consider frugivores. Nature is about what works and similar biological structures can function or adapt in many different ways. Theres no one to one mapping or evolution probably wouldnt even work.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 7 20:59:12 2018 No.9422034 >>9421927 maybe you have a chimp-sized brain but my large brain is the result of MEAT

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 03:17:56 2018 No.9422554 >>9419407 >biologically designed L0Lno fgt pls

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 03:28:25 2018 No.9422562

I think it's kind of tricky. The more you know about the bases of biology, the more arbitrary everything really seems- the capacity for pain, for example , is some processed signal that allows an organism to avert the source of something that evolved simply because it led to greater fitness- there's nothing particularly special about it.

But then, once everything has lost all meaning it kind of loops right back around and you realize that anything has just as much meaning as the next thing, and all of a sudden things are meaningful again. So I can't really blame anyone for wanting to be vegan to spare the pain of animals, it's really whatever floats your boat.

What I'm most interested in knowing is this: once we have made a few more advancements in genetic engineering (Which we aren't too far off from) and can grow biological products like fur, ivory, meat, etc. on plant hybrids, or even using some kind of a cellular mesh as a basis (though I'd imagine the structural benefits of using some plant that already has ease of access to the produce might outweigh the benefit of trying to reinvent the wheel there), would people who are vegan now consider eating meat from a source like that? If it's identical, even- let's say you ignore for the sake of the argument the structural and regulatory advancements that would be needed in our knowledge of how genetics works, and say we can implant the gene that controls for a cow rib superstructure, and all the necessary support genes, into a pumpkin plant, and can grow what would essentially be cow ribs (meat attached) on a plant. There would be, of course, no more ""pain"" than harvesting from a pumpkin plant, but it would be identical in composition to actual meat.

At that point, would it be something vegans would dig? I mean, it seems once it gets there to be completely arbitrary- most meat would likely be grown that way, as it would be direct photosynthetic energy to meat, and likely have high yield/low space taken up.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 06:37:22 2018 No.9422716 >>9422562 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiYby-esFok

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 06:49:56 2018 No.9422731 >>9419379 They don't. They feed other animals. It is a continuous cycle. When we die, we feed the next generation of plants (ideally, often cemeteries have terrible soil)

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 06:53:48 2018 No.9422737

>>9419402

Many farm animals do have a better life than they'd have in the wild. Factory farming is the problem, but even there the animals survive longer than most of them would in the wild.

The appealing to nature argument is fundamentally flawed, many animals would today be completely extinct if humanity hadn't subjugated them in some manner (most bovines, chickens).

And yes, they have a life without being preyed on (except for the occasional fox in the henhouse) for the most part. They have food in abundance. Most wild animals do not have either of these things.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:27:01 2018 No.9422765 >>9419358 Absolutely retarded.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:33:04 2018 No.9422777 >>9419487 But rats do let you know when they don't like something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:40:43 2018 No.9422783 >>9419089 >What are /sci/'s thoughts on veganism? degeneracy fear of eating meat if a psychological trauma. and severe veganism must be treated as mental illness. some degenerate parents even abuse their kids forcing them to become vegans as well.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:49:17 2018 No.9422787

>>9419674
>Sure sure. But let me tell you a secret: Ideology does not pay the bills. PETA has donors and thus their main concern is protecting the interests of their donors.
If, by protecting the interests of their donors, you mean decieving their donors. Their budget allocations and operations are pretty shocking to say the least of it.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/speakingofresearch.com/2011/01/18/where-do-petas-donation-dollars-go/amp/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:55:53 2018 No.9422794 >>9422783 Some force their cats to be vegan. For those who don’t know, these species are obligate carnivores, and require the nutrients found only in meat to survive. Dogs can survive, but most certainly do not thrive on these diets either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:57:00 2018 No.9422796 >>9422783 /pol/ posting is dicks in ass retarded. >hurrr i dun lyke dis is degenerate!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 07:59:48 2018 No.9422798 >>9419089 I say, eat what you want just be aware of the ramifications of >muh bacon though

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 08:10:13 2018 No.9422807 >>9422796 this is degeneracy because media propagate it as something positive and contaminating more and more brainlets with veganism. this is also affecting meat industry which results in the reduction of life quality for normal people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 08:19:05 2018 No.9422821 >>9422807 >The media orooegage it, as something positive Ok, but how is it negative? >affecting the meat industry Good, the live stock industry accounts for more green house gases than all of the cars in the world combined.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 09:00:23 2018 No.9422852 >>9422765 ikr As if anyone would believe something like that was okay, meat eater or not. Really poor argumentation. Excellent application of a fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 11:02:11 2018 No.9423000 File: 643 KB, 1190x1080, govegansaveworld.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 11:04:08 2018 No.9423003 I thought keto was the best diet

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 13:44:51 2018 No.9423262 >>9423003 Needs a lot more research. More evidence in favor of fasting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:04:45 2018 No.9423315 >>9423262 I think most evidence is in favour of balanced diet and by proxy low meat/veggie

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:10:36 2018 No.9423336

>>9422731
Thats how it is but not necessarily bares on morality. Morality isnt about what is but what ought. I guess thats driven by how to get along with eachother in society and sympathy or empathy. Letting things live and be free as long as they dont infringe on you because you feel pleasure and pain and understand that other living things do too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:20:38 2018 No.9423360 >>9423315 Won't dispute that. Fasting seems to have its own benefits though.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:23:10 2018 No.9423371

>>9422737
This is true to a large extent but i dont think thats an honest argument because we only so it in exchange for food. Its not altruistic. Its disingenuous.

And yes animals do go extinct but i dont necessarily think its of interest to preserve species. When we do this on like nature reserves its not necessarily for the same reason a vegan would want to not kill animals. I think the vegan argument is best seen as partly an argument on how we should behave.

We shouldnt hurt animals but that doesnt mean we necessarily have a responsibility for their welfare away from this and regardless of the welfare we give them. They arent our children.

Even if domesticated, i dont see how killing them still is fine even though the animal is essentially owned.

Extending from this i think is just the idea of freedom of existence. Limiting interference. A living being should have the freedom not to die if it doesnt want to. The whole argument isnt really about giving animals the best life as possible. I think when you do that youre moving from a logical moral discourse into animal fetishism.

Humane deaths and great welfare is obviously very ideal and preferred if killing them but i think its not necessary for many people to eat them now. Or atleast approaching that way. I also dont wanna make it seem like animals are the same or as aware as us like some vegans may suggest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:24:29 2018 No.9423377 >>9422777 Yeah was rherorical question.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:25:53 2018 No.9423381 >>9423003 keto is a meme, just like nofap all of the """benefits""" of keto are due to people excluding processed sugars from their diets, which is not keto-specific there is a lot of evidence that keto impairs your cognition btw

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:27:32 2018 No.9423387 >>9422794 This is a very interesting argument for vegans i think. I guess vegans would say we shouldnt domesticate animals to some extent but then again if you had a kid that could only eat meat..

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:30:33 2018 No.9423392 >>9419240 Not a lower carbon by any means unless you buy extremely local. Also humans evolved into more intelligent beings because of animal protein

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:31:58 2018 No.9423400 >>9423392 Evolved. Past tense.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:32:25 2018 No.9423402 >>9423392 >humans evolved into more intelligent beings because of animal protein [citation needed]

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:36:01 2018 No.9423406 >>9423392 And monkeys involved into intelligent animals because of this also?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:55:56 2018 No.9423439 >>9419668 well Hitler was doing the same thing so it's logical I guess. I'd take it as a compliment

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 14:59:59 2018 No.9423449 >>9423439 Well desu its more preferable to do barbiturate overdose or just guillotine their heads off.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 15:40:44 2018 No.9423530

>>9419711
>Humans are the only animal which drinks milk of another species. Dairy isn't necessary to meet your daily needs for calcium as evidenced by pic related.
No doubt this is true.
But why is it that the phenotype with the strongest selection pressure among humans is that of lactase tolerance?

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 16:11:37 2018 No.9423576

>>9419711
>Fish do indeed have Omega 3s, but also have mercury
Levels of mercury in fish are harmless unless you eat fish every day, but even then that would only increase your alzheimer's risk by ~2% at age 65
Good luck trying to get EPA and DHA from your flax seeds, and don't tell me about algae derived DHA/EPA, we're talking about diets, not supplements
Vegan diet offers 0 EPA and DHA, therefore being drastically detrimental to your cognition. If anything, eating fish lowers Alzheimer's risk as compared to vegan diet, even though it has mercury. This suggests that switching from vegan diet is what helped us evolve high intelligence, EPA/DHA and iodine being few of the reasons.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 16:23:11 2018 No.9423601 >>9423576 Cognitive benefits from diet dont necessarily connect to evolutionary reasons for intelligence. That inference is very difficult to make even if plausible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 16:30:25 2018 No.9423611 >>9423530 because of ancient goat herders surviving on nothing but goat's milk when times were hard you can pretty much live off of milk alone

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 18:27:56 2018 No.9423834 >>9423601 still the point is, vegan diet is objectively inferior and will make you dumber

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 18:44:13 2018 No.9423857 >>9423834 I'm sorry, but I couldn't help notice how you failed to provide the peer reviewed paper published in a journal listed on the Master Journal list to substantiate your claim. You probably just forgot though.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:35:44 2018 No.9423932

Being vegan or vegetarian is almost definitely a better way to live, but I love meat, its tasty.
I feel like vegan organizations should change their tack and instead of going after the cruelty bit, they should focus on health, sustainability, etc.
The cruelty should barely be an afterthought.
It's a bad way to go to give people the impression that the way they've been raised to be is immoral. It just makes people defensive, and if you shame people for eating meat it might further the divide. Furthermore, even if it works, and an individual gives up meat to feel good about saving animals, its hard to feel that effect from day to day because all those cows are still dying with or without you. But if you switch for health reasons, its something you can get benefits from almost immediately.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:42:19 2018 No.9423941 >>9423932 They can't help themselves though. They just have to sniff their own farts and flaunt their moral superiority in the most obnoxious way possible. This is despite having a lot of positive facts on their side.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:47:15 2018 No.9423947 >>9423932 I agree. Idont think they should guilt trip people with cruelty and health or environment might be a better tac but i still think its good to present moral arguments.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:49:45 2018 No.9423951 >>9423941 So you think there will be a vegan world?

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:50:15 2018 No.9423953

>>9419711
>(((soy))) milk

>245% of daily dose of copper
>but 96% of zinc
Huge copper-zinc imbalece here.

Zinc and copper compete against one another as antagonist in order to properly regulate the physiological pathways in your body. The proper balance between the two trace minerals is critical to maintaining health.

Unlike zinc, copper can readily accumulate in the body into toxic concentrations. In order to maintain adequate zinc levels, a higher dose of zinc compared to copper is required daily. Zinc is only stored for short durations in the blood and bone and is quickly excreted through our urine and fecal matter. (7)

Ideally, nutritional biochemist Dr. Paul Eck recommends that the proper intake of copper to zinc should be a 1:8 ratio (8). When properly concentrated in the right balance, zinc behaves like the bigger brother blocking copper in food and in the body from being absorbed (5).

5. Prasad AS. Discovery of Human Zinc Deficiency: Its Impact on Human Health and Disease. Adv Nutr. 2013 Mar;4(2):176-190. PMCID: 3649098

7. S. Department of Health and Human Services: Toicological Profile for Zinc Link Here

8. The Weston A. Price Foundation: Copper-Zinc Imbalance: Unrecognized Consequences of Plant-Based Diets and a Contributor to Chronic Fatigue.

https://drjockers.com/do-you-have-a-copper-and-zinc-imbalance/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:52:08 2018 No.9423958 >>9423951 According to the literature cited so far it's not the most sustainable model. I'm hoping for a low meat world.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:53:04 2018 No.9423962 >>9423958 I know but from a moral standpoint not sustainability.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:55:02 2018 No.9423968 >>9420372 >(((soy))) sauce >copper at a whooping 941% !!!!! >while zinc at 187% >fiber at a huge 85 g, preventing the absorption of many nutrients

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 19:56:38 2018 No.9423970 >>9423962 To an extent it seems inevitable. We'll be able to do it at a certain point, so we won't really have any reason to continue providing excellent lives for livestock before giving them a humane and dignified death.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:02:17 2018 No.9423990 >>9423970 They can go extinct, thats not the point. Or maybe they wont. Some domestic animals can survive back in the wild, who knows. Can always put them in zoos desu. Im not sure its gna happen. If it does. A long time. Difficult for animals.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:07:40 2018 No.9423999 >>9423990 Pigs would definitely have no problems whatsoever. They go wild and grow tusks and hair pretty much the moment they are set free. Pretty amazing really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:08:41 2018 No.9424002 Hunting will always be a thing though. For ecological reasons if nothing else. And you might as well eat some of what you hunt.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:10:42 2018 No.9424007 https://www.quackwatch.org/ dont fall for memes kids

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:12:34 2018 No.9424016 >>9423970 I know theres wild chickens in hawaii. Tbh cows wd survive in england. Nothing big enough to take down a cow.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:14:40 2018 No.9424025 >>9424002 Probably a good point. >>9423999 The way they treat non domesticated animals now im sure there would be a concerted effort.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 20:18:10 2018 No.9424032

>>9424025
Shda put in same post but there does seem to be a weird double standard. People often dont like the idea of killing animals i think. The government etc gives a whole damn about so many species around like animal trade in africa. Theres inconsistency i think in the approach. I guessnits populous exotic animals vs relatively abundant domestic ones. And again the point in sometimes its necessary to cull animals for good reason.

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 22:25:33 2018 No.9424290

>>9420644
>alcohol
can be useful tool to loosen up a bit to talk to a girl

>cigs
most people that indulge are degenerate. easier just to ship them off to a island or whatever

>guns
gun control should be a thing. civilized society has no use.

can ban meat as soon as we come up for way to get nutrients without eating it. same way we'll ban human driving cars after self driving car software is 100%.

didn't see anyone mention how debilitating vitamin b12 deficiency is. Imagine if our society was completely ignorant to vitamin b12 and some random group of people outlawed people from eating meat. little something to think about.

instead of posting animal gore on facebook invest in genetic engineering so we could get all the nutrients we get from meat from plant foods

Anonymous Mon Jan 8 22:34:48 2018 No.9424306

It's an expensive fashion trend that can only be afforded by people earning moderate wage. Additionally , it's impractical and confers very little benefits.

Milk and eggs are excellent foodstuffs, so I'm all for being vegetarian. I personally like meat and veggies equally

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 22:54:25 2018 No.9424350 >>9423857 are you actually retarded? vegan diet doesn't provide you with DHA and EPA, which are essential for cognition, slow cognitive decline and have been linked to higher IQ, if you don't know this then you should leave this discussion

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 23:18:24 2018 No.9424373 >>9424350 >still cites no scientific literature Sure bud, we believe you. Right on!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 23:30:17 2018 No.9424385 >>9419222 >Never seeb people who have a good argument against it Homo Sapiens are omnivorous.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 23:47:34 2018 No.9424413 >>9424350 >muh omega 3 If you really care you could take supplements made of algae, which is the source of omega 3 in fish anyway, so you'll be getting long chained omega 3's from a direct clean source without the middle fish. Veganism is great.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 8 23:50:13 2018 No.9424416 >>9424385 Still, if you look at our closest ancestor, the chimpanzee, meat only is 3% of their diet.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 00:20:47 2018 No.9424465 >>9424416 They fucking love it though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 00:57:51 2018 No.9424538 Why we don't discuss what causes the fear of eating meat and how can we help overcome their fears. Should we blame ((them)) for indoctrination of little kids with the anthropomorphic animals in cartoons?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 02:19:33 2018 No.9424644 >>9424538 Empathy? Are you saying that empathy is a bad thing? Ever owned a pet?

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 02:58:31 2018 No.9424695

>>9424644
Like all feels empathy is a double-edged sword.
Empathy is a part of altruistic behaviour. Such behaviour increases the survivability of group of animals.
I doubt that sense of guilt for eating food can inrease survivability of any species though.

Vegetarians really need to experience a real hunger once in a while. That's straighten their brains

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 03:14:28 2018 No.9424718 >>9424695 The Island with Bear Grylls comes to mind.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 06:57:57 2018 No.9424954 >>9419666 Largely negated by the fact that more recent studies have done away with the stigma against cholesterols. Basically, reducing cholesterol is pretty unhealthy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012/

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 06:59:49 2018 No.9424956 >>9419681 If you have disagreements with capitalism, propose a better economic system Hint: communism doesn't count, as it does not work and only serves to kill millions.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 07:34:49 2018 No.9424978 >>9424954 Vegan Gains is going to be pissed.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 07:54:41 2018 No.9424992

>>9424954
>Epidemiological studies from the past 20 years show no evidence of a link between dietary cholesterol and heart disease, coronary heart deaths or plasma cholesterol concentrations

>Clinical studies with dietary cholesterol challenges indicate that for those individuals who are sensitive to dietary cholesterol (25% of population) have increases in both LDL and HDL cholesterol, thus maintaining the LDL/HDL ratio

>CONCLUSION
>Most recent epidemiological and clinical studies consistently indicate that dietary cholesterol does not increase the risk for heart disease in healthy populations. In addition, recommendations of less than 300mg/day of dietary cholesterol bear on egg consumption resulting in the restriction of a very good source of quality protein. It is also important to remember that eggs are good sources of the carotenoids, lutein and zeaxanthin, that have been shown to prevent macular degeneration and LDL oxidation and of choline, an essential nutrient for fetal development. Further, choline may also protect against Alzheimer's disease. It is time that based on this overwhelming evidence, we rethink the current recommendations and remove the upper limit for dietary cholesterol following the lead of other countries.

Devastating.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 07:57:58 2018 No.9424995 >>9424956 I wasnt criticising it in this post (even with my misgivings)

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 09:55:27 2018 No.9425114

>>9424413
not omega3's you fucking retard, DHA and EPA
they are omega3s but vegan omega3's ARE NOT DHA or EPA
just random omega3s CANNOT replace EPA nor DHA, you'll suffer from cognitive deficits
no vegan food contains DHA or EPA, how many times do I have to repeat it?
>>9424373
how about you start with reading these fucking uneducated dumbfuck nigger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docosahexaenoic_acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eicosapentaenoic_acid

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 10:07:02 2018 No.9425137 >>9424992 >eggs are good sources of the carotenoids, lutein and zeaxanthin holy shit, whoever is responsible for writing this paper should be excommunicated from doing science

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 10:26:56 2018 No.9425161 >>9425137 why? they're not wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 11:15:16 2018 No.9425231 Veganism is inferior in every way to carnivore diets.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 11:27:35 2018 No.9425250 >>9425161 >good sources http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000138000000000000000-1w.html you'd need to eat at least 20 eggs a day to get the lower end of daily lutein + zaexanthin recommendation

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 11:29:13 2018 No.9425251 >>9425250 https://www.incredibleegg.org/eggcyclopedia/l/lutein/ here's another source saying average egg contains 250 mcg of lutein and zaexanthin, so that translates to 24 eggs a

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 13:04:28 2018 No.9425410 >>9421927 Do a similar comparison with the human digestive tract and you come to the inescapable conclusion that humans are carnivorous.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 14:31:47 2018 No.9425590

>>9423371

I disagree that it is a disingenuous argument. I think you and many vegans anthropomorphise animals to such an extent that you want them to have rights. But rights are basically given in exchange for duty/responsibilities and animals are not capable of those.
You ascribing a 'want' that an animal is supposed to have but that is a human idea.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 14:41:21 2018 No.9425606 >>9419089 op, post a pic of your canine teeth in thread

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 14:43:51 2018 No.9425615 >>9425590 animal rights are a thing but I think it only applies to domestic animals Like bear hunting is legal but if you're gonna keep a bear you gotta treat it well

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 15:21:25 2018 No.9425687

>>9425590
Its not anthropomorphising. Its based on the fact that some animals probably have a comparavle consciousness to us and feel pain - living things we can empathise with. Minimising unnecessary pain.

Rights are not determined that way necessarily. Postvistically theees probably no one eeason we give thinfs rights though the social contract is obviously an argument. But your idea doeant stand to reason why children and disabled people have rights. Why vegetative patients have rights to some degree.

And crucially your missing out on the fact that animals do actually have rights right now. We prosecute people for mistreating and killing animals unlawfully.

Your argument doeant really stand up.
>>9425590

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 15:22:33 2018 No.9425690 >>9425615 Animal rights applies to non domestic animals as well.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:12:54 2018 No.9425805

>>9425615
>>9425687

Society gives (and takes rights) as humanity sees fit. Children and disabled people have drastically limited rights compared to healthy adults - kids slowly earn rights as they mature and obtain an education and people with a disability typically lose certain rights, depending on what kind of disability they have (for example conclusion of a contract might require a guardian).
Vegetative patients have rights in so far as it is perceived that their vegetative state is temporary (just like we don't lose our rights while we sleep) - of the doctors ascertain that a comeback is highly improbable, the patient loses the biggest right (to self-determination) and the family (usually) gets to decide what is supposed to happen.

And yes, animals have rights, but only because we give them the rights, and it is purely in our self-interest. My argument stands, you're even providing me with more points.

Also, please spell-check a bit

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:23:47 2018 No.9425834 >>9419358 Literally the dumbest person on /sci/

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:25:39 2018 No.9425837 >>9419435 >being this weak-willed

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:36:21 2018 No.9425858

>>9425805
Yes i do understand society gives rights. Im a moral relativist.

Society gives and takes away rights and that has changed over time hopefully for the better. Its good society gives rights. Otherwise we wouldnt be debating this.

And vegans arent asking for equal rights for animals. Kids and the disabled do have limited rights and intuitively i think they should in terms of welfare. Animals have limited rights for other reasons but i think they should have the right to live and not suffer if they are living conscious animals just like us.

The fact that we give rights doesnt change anything or disregard my argument at all.

But ill say that you havent directly given a good reason why a conscious living breathing animal shouldnt have the same right to live as us when it is unnecessary for us to kill it.

Its not an argument of absolute objective rights. Its an argument for minimising suffering. And it naturally follows from how we already do care about animals, domestic or not.

P.s. im on my phone its hard to type. Im not rechecking all my mistakes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:43:00 2018 No.9425867 >>9425606 If you wear clothes or shoes you can fuck right off.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:45:00 2018 No.9425876

>>9425805
Also i would disagree if you think rights are out of self-interest. I think its alot more than that and most people would argue you are wrong and rights are often given inspite of self interests.

We dont give the disabled rights out of self interest. We certainly dont give wild animals rights out of self interest. Or atleast most of it isnt self-interest.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 16:55:09 2018 No.9425904
File: 85 KB, 470x960, 1515118111470.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9419260
>tfw id rather eat niggers than animals
>tfw caniballism is illegal and niggers have human rights
>tfw i would get some weird braindisease and die(if not properly treated)
>tfw i get arrested for being a weirdo on anonymous dog trading forum
>tfw nigger dick would increase my testosterone levels

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 17:02:55 2018 No.9425918 >>9419089 Let's kill life that doesn't scream (audibly) so that life that screams and some that doesn't can die some other way. Idrc desu

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 17:11:28 2018 No.9425939 >>9419260 now thats some next level projecting right there

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 17:34:02 2018 No.9425990 >>9419260 Tfw mutton iss probably one of the least juicy delicious meats.

Anonymous Tue Jan 9 18:30:57 2018 No.9426120

>>9425858
there are 3 main origins of rights:
1. rights/moral meant to increase survivability of the group.
2. rights as the compromise of class struggles
3. cuck rights, because some mentally unstable weaklings can't handle their own freedom they want to throw it off.
these cuck rights/moral well studied by such philosophers as Nietzsche, Erich Fromm

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 18:33:12 2018 No.9426125 >>9426120 Compromise of class struggle?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 19:29:38 2018 No.9426246 >>9419381 Growing the meaty parts without the worthless bony and/or brainy parts is even more efficient. Slaughterhouses are only a temporary step.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 20:55:36 2018 No.9426416 >>9425834 >>9422852

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 21:33:03 2018 No.9426475 its difficult to get all essential amino acids in the right balance on vegan diet

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 9 22:51:33 2018 No.9426573 >>9426475 Fuck orrff

Anonymous Wed Jan 10 01:10:31 2018 No.9426755

>>9425876
Most of it is out of self-interest (maybe all).
Animals get rights so they can survive and be cultivated as our food source (earlier as part of our working equipment).
Wild animals get rights to keep a certain balance in the wild life and sometimes merely because humanity has romantic notions.
People with a disability get rights because that might afflict any of us at some point in life (accident) and we have provisions against abuse against the disabled for that precise reason.

If a different self-interest comes up, many of these rights may be revoked (and it might be wrong, but that is still the way reality works). I fail to see another motivation but self-interest here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 01:22:54 2018 No.9426770 >>9426755 >and it might be wrong For fuck's sake, don't pretend to make a moral argument then admit the position you're taking is immoral. It's fucking stupid.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 01:40:03 2018 No.9426782 >>9426770 Stop evading the argument. You have no leg to stand on and then deliberately misunderstand one word of mine?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 02:00:12 2018 No.9426800 >>9426782 >deliberately misunderstood No, your position is dumb so any possible interpretation of it is likewise dumb. I'm not the guy you were arguing with anyways.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 12:15:37 2018 No.9427471 >>9419089 I honestly don’t care. It’s their lifestyle, not mine.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 13:26:27 2018 No.9427618 >>9427471 Not even an iota of intellectual curiosity?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 14:02:13 2018 No.9427698 Literature doesn't appear to show much consensus so far. What conclusions am I supposed to draw so far?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 14:03:53 2018 No.9427700 >>9425114 There's DHA and EPA in algae and vegan DHA/DPA supplements made from algae are widely available and affordable. Chill your mantits when vegans wreck your whiny estrogen reeking dairy-fairy body.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 20:34:28 2018 No.9428445 >>9427700 >soyboys implying estrogen and once again we're talking about DIETs, not supplements you can get all nutrition from supplements but its not a part of your diet humans stay on veganism = no EPA/DHA to evolve brains

Anonymous Wed Jan 10 23:51:59 2018 No.9428829

>>9426755
Ill accept that when you dont have to think about to retuŕnď.

Mate, making it logical to yourself doesnt make it true. Could be horrific reasons for norms. E.g. slavery, segregation.

Ok believe u when u give a good argument

We dont give aninals rights of self interest coz we give wild animals rights. We get nothing bacl

Romantic notions is weird. None of this is against veganism. Say why minimise sufferingn. Give me An argument

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 23:54:28 2018 No.9428834 >>9426755 None of it reasons self interest. Man tell me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 10 23:59:21 2018 No.9428841 >>9426755 Romantic Notions isnt self interest Where do you constrain it. And why. Voice me ur definition of a right to live.

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:07:31 2018 No.9428856

>>9426755
Lets define self interests as things we like. Then we all have them. We dont protect . animals coz they cute

And regardless you made no good anti vegan argument. I've covered your ass.

Argue against my main point. Minimise pain.

Don't present things i agrees with
E
Yes. Subjective world.s make urr point

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:09:40 2018 No.9428859 >>9426755 I can refute u in two points. Do u want morality to be self inters Say? Why? Y U fuckin retarde.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:14:04 2018 No.9428869 >>9426755 And he argument?

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:15:58 2018 No.9428873

>>9426800
>>9428829
>>9428834
>>9428841
>>9428856
>>9428859
>>9428869

First of all, we are veering off topic hard.

Second of all, you are now just rambling incoherent nonsense. Obviously none of you have the reading comprehension to understand my argument, even though it is clearly laid out. You have brought not a single argument to the debate.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:23:30 2018 No.9428886 >>9428873 Im happy to be defeated in argument by you. Just state ur view. I'll Nswer. If its bad criticise. Go on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:25:08 2018 No.9428892 >>9428873 Lets start fresh.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:25:39 2018 No.9428894 >>9428886 Feel free to actually address the points made in >>9426755 So far, no one has.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:29:09 2018 No.9428897 >>9428894 Self interest is irreleva mt. Is id not ought. Tell me why it argument matters. To me freedom is what matters

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:29:57 2018 No.9428898

>>9428894
>If a different self-interest comes up, many of these rights may be revoked (and it might be wrong, but that's just the way reality works)

Your admission that it is wrong (implied morally wrong) to get rid of any of the rights you listed suggests that in addition to self-interest, there is a moral or ethical element to those rights.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:30:45 2018 No.9428899 >>9428894 All ur arguments are subjective. .my strength

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:32:39 2018 No.9428901 >>9428894 Point of morality they irrelevant to origin. Am i a caveman. Piss off

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:34:25 2018 No.9428903 >>9428894 You made no points other than some ppl have rights. Pisß off

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:37:42 2018 No.9428906 >>9428894 Wtf. If self interests was the point lets kill all autists. World is complicated. Why constrict explanations like that. You live in a small world

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:49:26 2018 No.9428933 >>9428873 Ill ask u for brevity . Is morality about self interest? Why du care?

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 00:57:56 2018 No.9428942

Animals eat each other. Do you think it's nice living in the wild? It's stressful everyday terror. Animals that are used by humans for food are raised in safety and comfort even if they're caged. The only terror comes moments before they die, something which happens to everything anyway.

By being raised for food they live far far far better lives than they ever would have in the wild. I like how vegans want to deprive animals of the only security they'll ever have: being used as food for humans.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Vegans live in fairyland

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:04:49 2018 No.9428955 >>9428942 Not the point. Lets live under a communist x Gov even if it's better >i said before. It's not about coddling It's morality. Don't harm. Freedom of livoning. Read the thread. Why should I repeat myself. My debater shouldnt either

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:06:03 2018 No.9428956 >>9428955 >don't harm Yup. Let's reduce suffering and increase happiness by taking animals from the wild and raising them for food. Do you understand the point? Or are you a moron?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:06:37 2018 No.9428958 >>9419089 there is no such thing as vegans just confused vegetarians

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:08:47 2018 No.9428960 >>9428956 Are you agreeing with me . Cant tell

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:10:03 2018 No.9428962 >>9428956 Irony given libertarianism. Do they want you to put em in a zoo

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:12:24 2018 No.9428966 >>9428960 You are a retarded Kantian ethicist. I am a utilitarian. Get with the program. Fucking hell. It's like nobody takes basic ethics anymore.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:13:56 2018 No.9428969 >>9428966 So why am i wrong

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:15:45 2018 No.9428971 >>9428969 >muh things are wrong therefore don't do them even if it improves happiness of people and society Go study Kant, it's what you are. For a bonus study Utilitarianism, it's what I am

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:15:56 2018 No.9428972 >>9428966 I agree with utilitarianism. But why am i wrong.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:17:12 2018 No.9428974 >>9428972 Because we've proven, as has been pointed out in this thread, that animals happiness is improved BY BECOMING FOOD FOR HUMANS.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:18:19 2018 No.9428976 >>9428971 Is kant the god of morality? Or are you immature. Dunno why i argue with kids.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:19:23 2018 No.9428979 >>9428974 What if we dont need to eat meat. Hypothetical.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:21:10 2018 No.9428981 >>9428974 And why arent there more zoos .

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:25:13 2018 No.9428989 >>9428971 utilitarianism, sounds like a bunch of bullshit created by fags

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:26:20 2018 No.9428993

Forget all this philosophy and get back to science. The nutritional aspect of veganism is far more important. Supplements are fine because they work, but in order for veganism to be taken seriously the primary foods in the diet should be able to support all of the body's needs without them. While this is entirely possible, a large number of vegans are unaware of how to balance macro intake given that they now eat primarily grains, fruits, and vegetables (carbs, carbs, and carbs)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/508332?redirect=true

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.short

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/000992280104000710?journalCode=cpja

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031395509001102

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3927S.short

Contribute by suggesting how we would solve these problems instead of debating whether a fucking cow would be happier if it were killed by wolves or humans

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:26:54 2018 No.9428994 >>9428971 labeling yourself as anything also makes you an idiot

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:27:51 2018 No.9428995 >>9428971 My point is minimise syffering. How we y convince an advanced alien not to kill you

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:29:09 2018 No.9429001 >>9428993 eat algae

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:29:38 2018 No.9429003 >>9428993 Ffs we know! Go back to urbmoms basement

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:36:14 2018 No.9429013

>>9428897
>>9428898
>>9428899
>>9428901
>>9428903
>>9428906
>>9428933

Again, only name calling and no arguments. My argument still stands and you seem to be so intellectually fragile as to be personally offended by a different view on a subject. And my post is obviously not my entire world view. Why would you claim that, except as a hidden jab at my expense? Add to that the numerous calls that I should "piss off" (which also leads me to believe I may be dealing with only one or two people) makes me think I am hitting where it hurts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:37:52 2018 No.9429016 >>9429013 So what's it argument for clarity sake

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:39:46 2018 No.9429018 >>9429016 Your* apologies

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:41:22 2018 No.9429021 >>9429013 You've uncovered my conspiracy. Theres 30 people replying on this account.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:43:25 2018 No.9429024 >>9429013 >only name calling >>9428897 >>9428898 >>9428933 None of these posts included name calling and you lumped them in anyway. I don't think you actually want to discuss anything.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:45:46 2018 No.9429028 >>9429024 I cant tell whose side ure on but be my guest. Let's argue. Sorry if I'm misplaced.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:48:07 2018 No.9429031 >>9429024 You lack clarity.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:51:03 2018 No.9429037 >>9429024 Just gimme your argument in words.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:53:44 2018 No.9429042 >>9429024 Irony that i want to a Talk and u gone missing

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 01:57:18 2018 No.9429048 >>9428993 You have a naive view of science. Pretend all you want.

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:01:08 2018 No.9429056

>>9429048
I don't discount all philosophy. In this case it's less important though. Organizations like peta would have far more success in getting people to go vegan if they focused on making the vegan diet more accessible instead of just trying to guilt everyone with gore and condescension.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:01:17 2018 No.9429057 >>9428956 Least suffering is not killing them. Careful bout namecallin Cos I'm probs smarter than u.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:02:53 2018 No.9429059 >>9429056 I dont care for pets. I care for logical argument.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:04:31 2018 No.9429061 >>9429059 Petra not pets. I'm not a monster ha

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:06:31 2018 No.9429065 >>9429056 I eat meat ya know.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 02:17:50 2018 No.9429076 Waiting

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 04:59:15 2018 No.9429201

Humans are omnivores and have survived on meat, fruit, vegetables, grains, seeds and water. All food is indirectly derived from the chemical reactions between the sun, water and plants. All meat is derived from the meat of other animals, insects, plants and fungi.

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 16:21:46 2018 No.9430394

>>9428445
How so? The human body converts ALA to EPA and DHA also and the conversion rate gets better if you stay off saturated fats. It's better to consume algae DHA and EPA than fish, since most of the fish we eat are polluted with endocrine disruptors, plastics, dioxines, merxury etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 16:30:42 2018 No.9430416 Someone should make a new thread which summarizes the actual science (and only the science) found ITT and continue the discussion.

Anonymous Thu Jan 11 18:37:36 2018 No.9430768

>>9430394
>The human body converts ALA to EPA and DHA
not sufficiently efficient, you still end up deficient in both
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12936959
>Vegetarian, especially vegan, diets are relatively low in alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) compared with linoleic acid (LA) and provide little, if any, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Clinical studies suggest that tissue levels of long-chain n-3 fatty acids are depressed in vegetarians, particularly in vegans. [...] Conversion of ALA by the body to the more active longer-chain metabolites is inefficient: < 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369925
>ALA is endogenously converted to EPA and DHA, but the process is slow and inefficient and is affected by genetics, sex, age and dietary composition.
http://www.plefa.com/article/S0952-3278(09)00086-6/fulltext

>It's better to consume algae DHA and EPA
you can get anything you want from pills, the point is we only discovered microalgae derived DHA 40 years ago, early humans wouldn't have access to it, so they wouldn't evolve intelligence if they stayed vegan and didn't eat fish
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02562227

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 11 18:46:44 2018 No.9430786 >>9430768 Past tense.

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/sci/ - Science & Math