/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.9314825]

Is mathematics entirely circular logic? I haven't taken much math (compsci major so not brainlet tho), but does math have any physical foundation or is it all manipulating symbols that we've made up?

[Anonymous No.9314830]

>>9314825
If I drop a 10 gram ball onto your foot you won't mind, if I drop a 1000 gram ball onto your foot you will mind.

[Anonymous No.9314831]

>>9314825
formally, mathematics is just symbol manipulation. formally, language is also just symbol manipulation, so everything you can conceive and communicate to someone is "just symbols that we've made up". that's not the point. the point is what those symbols represent.

[Anonymous No.9314832]

>>9314825
Any four objects make six unique pairs. Math is the study of abstract quantity and structure.

[Anonymous No.9314835]

3 good replies ITT, too bad OP won't understand any of them.

[Anonymous No.9314836]

>>9314825
>compsci major so not brainlet tho

>>>/g/tfo

[Anonymous No.9314839]

>>9314825
Actually, mathematics was invented to model discovered mathematical phenomena.

[Anonymous No.9314847]

>>9314831
Many high level mathematics don't have any representation in real world.

[Anonymous No.9314849]

>>9314839
This is the circular logic I was talking about in OP.

[Anonymous No.9314856]

>>9314847
That's because of abstraction, the basis of mathematics has real world applications.
Just like the basis of computer science was very tangible, such as the difference engine.
However, when you move into gradually more and more complex problems, it increases in its abstraction to solve those ever more abstract problems, such as hyperdimensional spheres being 'spikey' and in computer science, the intangible nature of quantum computing.

>>9314849
But it is true, the invented tools to chop down trees, prior to trees, there were no tools.
Mathematics is tool for mapping mathematical phenomena, or at least, it was, but as mentioned above, it has entered abstraction, but it is still mathematics.

[Anonymous No.9314858]

>>9314847
I never said those symbols represented things in "the real world", whatever you think that means. math has its own inner workings, and the abstractions build on themselves. if you ask how we know they aren't abstract nonsense, well, we're pretty sure and from time to time physicists and others find that the abstract machinery is especially well suited to study models that help them do science.

[Anonymous No.9314859]

>>9314856
>*the invented = we invented

[Anonymous No.9314860]

>>9314849
It's not circular logic. It's just establishing relations between concepts.

[Anonymous No.9314861]

The symbols represent ideas and don't really matter, just like in language.

[Anonymous No.9314863]

>>9314856
what the fuck are you even trying to say? order your ideas and think if you even have something to say.

>>9314849
not really. some things in math are invented to study other things that are already there. like number theory, it studies numbers, which are already there, using more advanced machinery.

[Anonymous No.9314871]

>>9314863
>what the fuck are you even trying to say? order your ideas and think if you even have something to say.
>Too dumb to understand, so gets angry and lashes out.
Fucking brainlets, man.
You try an make it as simple as trees and tools and yet they STILL throw their toys out of the pram because it isn't as simple as cubes in information theory.
I'll try again:
DUH WE HAZ DUH MAFF, THE MAFF NEEDS DUH LIKE DUH UMM MEASURE, YES?!
SO IF WE NEED DUH MEASURE, WE NEED DUH TOOL?!
SO DEN LYKE WE INVENT DUH MAFF. :DDDDD

[Anonymous No.9314880]

>>9314871
if you don't have anything to say, then shut the fuck up. you don't need to reply to everything.

[Anonymous No.9314881]

>>9314880
I just explained why it HAD and sometimes still HAS REAL WORLD applications, you absolute utter moron.
If you fail to extrapolate from such a BASIC analogy and OVERSIMPLIFICATION as that, then you are an archetype stereotype of the dumbwit CScumbag.

[Anonymous No.9314884]

>>9314881
you didn't say anything, dickhead. you said

>yeah it had real world applications but then it didn't but yeah as I said it did but then it has entered abstraction

and some meme you heart in numberphile about the horned sphere? for some reason

[Anonymous No.9314892]

>>9314884
What?
Are you really that fucking dumb?
I said it had purely real world applications until the point of abstraction, when such applications aren't as clear.
Not:
>yeah it had real world applications but then it didn't but yeah as I said it did but then it has entered abstraction
But you're too fucking stupid to understand the nuance.
>and some meme you heart in numberphile about the horned sphere? for some reason
Ah yes, because you don't learn outside of your meme YouTube education.
Fuck off Dunning-Kruger, you don't belong here.

[Anonymous No.9314897]

>>9314892
>nuance
kek

[Anonymous No.9314898]

>>9314897
>Literally not an argument
>Literally too dumb to understand the concept of nuance
For shame, for shame.

[Anonymous No.9314913]

>>9314825
Its built on axioms that we admit are logically arbitrary but nevertheless lead to conclusions that seem to best model the universe, so they're the ones we stick with

It has been proven, however, that these axioms will never be enough to prove everything that is true so sure you could argue its ciruclar

[Anonymous No.9314916]

>>9314913
>incompleteness implies circularity
????????????????

[Anonymous No.9314919]

>>9314916
You need more axioms to demonstrate completeness of any set of axioms

[Anonymous No.9314931]

>>9314919
that's what incompleteness means, so?

[Anonymous No.9314969]

>>9314836
Any bets the person who made that pic is an engineer

[Anonymous No.9314979]

>>9314825
math is a language/philosophy we made we made up to explain things, like english or music

we look up and called the burning ball of fire the sun, we call that specific vibration of a string 'A', we call a collection of 1 and 1 as 2

[Anonymous No.9314985]

>>9314979
>math is a language/philosophy
please fuck off

[Anonymous No.9315223]

>>9314825

It's true, math is useless unless it can be applied to benefit humanity but using it to benefit humans makes it into something subjective. So you have the choice of something that's completely objective but useless, or partially subjective but useful for society.

The basis of math is always objective, but the "point" is always subjective.

[Anonymous No.9315230]

>>9314832
>>9314831
feelgsgoodreplyman

[Anonymous No.9315255]

>>9314825
Is programming entirely circular logic? Does programming have any physical foundation or is it all manipulating symbols that we've made up?

Your programming is a grandchild of mathematics

[Anonymous No.9315259]

>>9314825
start from axioms and build up from there

if axioms are compatible with reality, then the math is too

if axioms are incompatible with reality, then the math is too, doesn't make the logic wrong tho

[Anonymous No.9315266]

>>9314871
take your meds

[Anonymous No.9315279]

>>9314825
>Is mathematics entirely circular logic?
This question is absurd.
>does math have any physical foundation
>>9314830
Also, how many fingers do you have?
> is it all manipulating symbols that we've made up
>compsci major so not brainlet tho
>compsci major
>so brainlet tho

[Anonymous No.9315429]

>>9314825
It is the compression of many truths into just a few axioms or the decompression of the axioms into the many truths.

It is similar to law or religion where you start with a list of all of the goods and bads and characterize them by a smaller list of rules.

In all of these cases we do it backwards where the list of rules is sacred and everything that follows is sacred whether we like the conclusion or not.

[Anonymous No.9315437]

>>9314849
>claims to be CS brainlet
>doesn't know what recursion is

[Anonymous No.9315440]

>>9314825
you needs to do some more reading anon:
https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html

[Anonymous No.9315442]

Analysis is the blueprint for precision that can be used to build many things in a smooth continuous manner

Algebra is the blueprint for mapping a structure in space and relating its structure to the space it surrounds and occupies.

They connect to reality in a way that is not specific because the world is a big place with many rare things. Look up books on non associative algebras or nonlinear pdes. Math has to be generalized to touch these areas equally. The price for generality is abstraction.