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/sci/ - Science & Math

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8944738 No.8944738 [Reply] [Original]

How good is IQ as a measure of "intelligence"?

As beings of flawed intelligence ourselves, we probably can't devise an exam that can accurately measure the exact cognitive faculties of each other. Besides, IQ seems to be rather reductionist: IQ tests tend to measure pattern recognition, arithmetics, logical puzzles and the like, but the full range of mental capabilities we have extends beyond that, into skills that are perhaps quite difficult or maybe even impossible to measure in a quantitative value (the whole idea of having IQ points as pseudo-stat points irl seems odd to me). Things such as social abilities, frequency and colour recognition, linguistic skills, self control and discipline, the ability to retain sobriety and self awareness under the influence of strong emotions or drugs. I don't know, it just seems like a flawed system. Besides that, this is ignorance on my part, but how can you accurately state the average inteligence of an entire ethnicity or country? Wouldn't you have to have a tremendous sample size and very thoroughly test a wide range of people in a variety of ways?

These are just my humble two cents. What do you guys think of this?

>> No.8944749

>>8944738
IQ tests focus on logic and pattern recognition because this is what intelligence is about.

>frequency and colour recognition
>self control and discipline
>the ability to retain sobriety and self awareness under the influence of strong emotions or drugs
>social abilities

Those have very little, if anything, to do with intelligence. The only thing you've mentioned that could be (and is) considered a sub-category of intelligence is language abilities, because languages are patterns.

>besides that, this is ignorance on my part, but how can you accurately state the average inteligence of an entire ethnicity or country? Wouldn't you have to have a tremendous sample size and very thoroughly test a wide range of people in a variety of ways?

>What is statistics?

There's a reason why don't have to measure every single person to know the average height.

Tl;dr: IQ is not a perfect way of quantifying human intelligence, but it's the best one we have.

>> No.8944753

>>8944749

How do you define inteligence, if not for the range of capabilities your brain posesses?

>> No.8944757

>>8944753
If that's your definition of intelligence, then blind people are less intelligent than those with sight.

>> No.8944760

>>8944757

Perhaps not less inteligent, but less capable of using the correct tools that would allow them to express and develop a branch of inteligence.

A man might have tremendously huge arms, but without a hand, he'd never be able to lift a barbell.

How would you define inteligence?

>> No.8944770

https://youtu.be/jSo5v5t4OQM
I advise all of you to watch this

>> No.8944771

>>8944770


This is pretty interesting anon thanks for posting

>> No.8944778

IQ tests measure how good people do relative to other people, not a hard concept to grasp.

>> No.8944779

>>8944778

Yeah, how good people do relative to other people, at taking IQ tests. But what does that ultimately measure? Intelligence? What even is Intelligence, anyways?

>> No.8944781

>>8944779
>What even is Intelligence, anyways?

deep bro, really activates my almonds

>> No.8944784

>>8944738
How the hell does Cannabis help with autism? I have autism and I don't see the connections. Maybe epilepsy but I don't have that.

>> No.8944794

>>8944781

no, seriously, I knew I'd get an answer like that but what IS intelligence? How do you define it? The definition people give is usually like "bruh its... like... How much brain power your head engine's got senpai" but how do you actually explain it?


>>8944784

it doesn't, it's a retarded idea, it was just worthy of a screenshot

>> No.8944796

>>8944771
He is a pretty smart guy imo. He got me intersted in psychology, and I was the first to post that nature article about the un-reproducibility of psychology studies

>> No.8944801

if you did some reading into IQ you would know that very many of the mental abilities you talk about are highly correlated, and the statistical artefact most that predicts all of these abilities the best is called g, general intelligence factor.

G factor is best measured with raven's progressive matrices tests.


If you think IQ is not valid then ask yourself which group of people you think would make better doctors, investment bankers, lawyers, scientists, engineers, etc. A group of 100 people who scored 80 on an IQ test at age 17 or a group of 100 people who scored 130 on a IQ test at age 17

exactly, it would be the 130 IQ group

>> No.8944802

So there's going to be a bunch of stoned autistic jews. Looks like 4chan is about to get some new users.

>> No.8944805

>>8944794
try a dictionary some time mate

>> No.8944806

>>8944794
Makes since for Israel. Not because of /pol/ shit or da joos but how much money they waste away in R&D that they might as well spend it on stupid shit that doesn't work. I know for sure there is no treatment for autism whatsoever. If an autistic child is throwing tantrums breaking stuff, beating them does not help. Neither does positive reinforcement. I know from experience. The only drugs they may give are anti-psychotics like risperdal. I had to take Thorazine and honestly that's better for me.
In reference to the OP, I have a tested IQ of 128 by the WASI but only difference that it made is that it proved that I wasn't retarded but only made me hate myself more.

>> No.8944808

>>8944801
>investment banking is high IQ
>literally a people skills machine with basic econ knowledge
You sounded so smart, but now I'm unsure. What do I do, anon?

>> No.8944809

>>8944802
You ever been on /int/? Most posters from Israel have the 'tism for sure. They have the best bants though.

>> No.8944811

>>8944805

"intelligence has been defined in many different ways including as one's capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, planning, creativity, and problem solving"

>> No.8944812

>>8944806
>I know for sure there is no treatment for autism whatsoever
Time to inform the President of Science.

>> No.8944823

>>8944805
nah mate, intelligence is a spectrum innit?

it can't be objectively measured.

>> No.8944834

Intelligence is the ability to acquire and retain information and apply it in problem solving. That is what IQ test measure and your score on such tests is largely correlated with thigs like language and spatial skills.

Any (any) other definition of intelligence you come across was probably devised by some female psychologist in her early 40's in order to make herself and people with low/average IQ feel better about their intellectual abilities.

>> No.8944841

>>8944834

What if you came across a problem which required information and skills you didn't have before? What would the ease and speed with which you solve those problems show?

>> No.8944857

>>8944841
Either you try out solutions and adapt (learn) bases on the outcomes or you try to apply information that you have in other areas to see if they can be of any use in this particular case

>> No.8944868

>>8944738
>How good is IQ as a measure of "intelligence"?
pretty good. It only measures reasoning ability.

>IQ tests tend to measure pattern recognition, arithmetics, logical puzzles and the like
Yes. Everything else is knowledge, and therefore irrelevant to intelligence.

>Things such as social abilities, frequency and colour recognition, linguistic skills, self control and discipline, the ability to retain sobriety and self awareness under the influence of strong emotions or drugs.
Those aren't measures of intelligence.

>but how can you accurately state the average inteligence of an entire ethnicity or country?
Quite accurately. The less cross-spread of genes there are, the more accurate the average will be.

>Wouldn't you have to have a tremendous sample size and very thoroughly test a wide range of people in a variety of ways?
Sure, those would help. But if the method is to be legitimate, then it's going to be an IQ test more or less (read: only care about reasoning ability).
As long as the sample size is big enough and you are comparing typical individuals instead of self-selected upper 5-1%.


Unless your culture doesn't emphasize being literally sub-human, then IQ tests are not culturally biased.

>> No.8944871

>>8944868
>doesn't emphasize
*emphasizes

>> No.8944874

>>8944868

What do those other things count as, then? They're cognitive abilities and are inherent and like IQ can't be developed. The ability to notice and react to subtle social queues, to be creative in a variety of ways, to identify subtle differences in texture, smell or sound, to learn different languages, to have control over oneself. Aren't they all skills that stem from your mental faculties and are inherent to you?

>> No.8944881

>>8944757
I bet you blind people score worse on IQ tests without some sort of adjustment being made.

>> No.8944885

>>8944874
>What do those other things count as, then?

>Color
Distinguishing/identifying colors is largely language based. For whites, it's a non-issue.
Our colors are well spread out.
This can be developed.

>social abilities
You're intelligence is not based on other people...
This can be developed.

>linguistics
meme.

>sobriety
Don't be a 120 pounds manlet.
This can be developed

>having a cool head
This can be developed.


>Aren't they all skills that stem from your mental faculties and are inherent to you?
No.

>> No.8944895

>>8944885

>Color
>Distinguishing/identifying colors is largely language based. For whites, it's a non-issue.Our colors are well spread out. This can be developed.

Yeah, I know about the whole thing where some tribes or cultures can't distinguish between different colours due to not having a word for them, but imagine being able to distinguish 1000 different shades of green. Even if you had a name for all of them, you wouldn't remember them and even if you did, it'd be more of a matter of being able to actually differentiate the colour contrast between several different ones
Your abilities to interact with others definitely vary among different individuals and there is definitely some sort of inherent trait that decides whether or not someone is a good conversationalist, can detect shifts in tone/speed/emotion of voice, posture, etc.

Linguistics isn't a meme desu

>sobriety can be developed

Your literal resistance to substances can, but your mental control when you're in certain situations (like heavily halucinating) can't

>Aren't they all skills that stem from your mental faculties and are inherent to you?
>No.

Then where do they stem from?

>> No.8944903

>>8944753

The ability to
> notice patterns
> use logic
> understand cause-and-effect relations

>> No.8944905

>>8944903

What about other mental faculties that fall beyond that definition? How do you define them, like some other things mentioned previously ITT?

>> No.8944908

>>8944885
Fucking IQ can be developed too

>> No.8944909

>>8944738
It's not very good. Doesn't test creative capacity or imagination. It doesn't even show different thought processes. It can show a general level of competitive intelligence for trivial tasks(how easy it is for someone to do what others have a hard time doing) it won't find genius which requires a mind that works not just better than average, but also nothing like average.

>> No.8944914

>>8944908

Can it? You can't really get better at math for example, can you? Perhaps better at arithmetics in particular by sheer practice but nothing else. You can't really develop pattern recognition skills or memory either. Well, maybe pattern recognition to an extent.

>> No.8944917

>>8944905

I don't know, it's just some other mental faculties.

It's like saying

>OK, so if "strength" is defined as the ability to exert a lot of force, then how do you call the ability to do a backflip, or run a long distance?

Strength, coordination and endurance all fall under the general umbrella of "physical capabilities", but they are separate qualities. It's much easier to accept that than to redefine "strength".

Similarly, many highly intelligent individuals are socially and linguistically inept. Think of the stereotypical shut-in, nerdy math-wizard. Doesn't mean he's not intelligent.

>> No.8944923

>>8944917

But those other qualities DO stem from other attributes. The ability to do a backflip is based on your agility and coordination. The ability to run a long distance is based on your endurance. If memory, pattern recognition and applied knowledged are the hallmarks of inteligence, what do you class those other skills (Which clearly originate from your mind too) as? They're not PHYSICAL abilities, they're also based on things you notice and adapt to.

>> No.8944924

>>8944914
>You can't really get better at math for example
Of course you can

>> No.8944925

>>8944812
Depends on the issue with an autistic child. I went in for treatment with psychosis and it helped. Most of the others were there for years but never changed their behavior. In fact, some of the least violent kids were the low-functioning kids, who would self-injure almost all the time. Some of the people I met were literal murderers, one of them had killed 4 people by stabbing them to death. Another was a serial child rapist at 17. These people were mainly high-functioning autists are aspergers who had psychosis, mania and anti-social hatred.

>> No.8944927

>>8944808
But which IQ group do you think will do better at it you mong

>> No.8944928

>>8944924

so does that mean IQ isn't static and you can literally become more inteligent through practice? like literally grinding INT?

>> No.8944933

>>8944928
Not saying your brain doesn't have innate capabilities. But it will always have the ability to improve and learn given enough practice and motivation. IQ score can be raised through practice and even simple motivation believe it or not.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/motivation-may-influence-iq-scores

>> No.8944934

>>8944923

> they're not PHYSICAL abilities

And?

Just like {strength, endurance, mobility and coordination} can be separate PHYSICAL capabilities, similarly {social savviness, willpower, memory and intelligence} can be separate MENTAL capabilities.

I don't know how to explain it with any more clarity.

>> No.8944936

>>8944738
It's a laughably bad measure.

Look up "Cogsketch" and see for yourself. This is an AI designed to draw pictures and sketches that embody concepts. They modified it to guess at ravens matrices after being trained on general pattern recognition.

It scores >1SD above the average white male.

Can a mere lisp script running on a Gpu be said to have intelligence. It is not even conscious. We could load cogsketch on your cell phone right now, let it train for a few hours, then show it ravens for the first time and it would immediately demonstrate an iq of 120 despite having no innate or instinctual cognitive abilities.

Thus we see that IQ is entirely a function of training, and that innate intelligence has no actual connection to IQ.

>> No.8944937

>>8944934

but then why even make an umbrella term for those 3 capabilities (memory, pattern recognition, easy of knowledge absorption and regurgitation) and give it a name, if they're just other mental capabilities, and not do that for other abilities? Isn't that arbitrary?

>> No.8944945

>>8944895
It literally can. Things like cognitive behaviour therapy and meditation do exactly that. Self control is a skill.

>> No.8944948

>>8944937

Memory is not intelligence - it's memory.

"absorbing and regurtitating knowledge" is not intelligence - it's memory.

Intelligence isn't some magical measure of overall personal development. It's just what it is: the propensity for noticing and understanding cause-and-effect relations with the use of logic.

I don't know how this term came to be, you would have to ask a linguist.

>> No.8945476
File: 81 KB, 842x792, 1496098470149.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8945476

>>8944936
You can take a computer and pit it against chess masters.

Does that mean it takes no intelligence to be a master of chess?

>> No.8945494

>>8945476
You can beat a high level computer easily by baiting it.

>> No.8945549

>>8945494
What if someone accounts for this folly?

>> No.8945558

>>8944749
This, but also iq is known to change dramatically as a person goes through life. Studies have shown that people who play music have a higher iq on average, but lose some of that after they stop playing for a while.

>> No.8945569

goy weed lmoa

>> No.8945571

>>8944895
Having hallucinations has nothing to do with intelligence. A more intelligent person might have an easier time distinguishing between what's real and what isn't, but the hallucinations themselves aren't evidence of IQ. Additionally, humans are inherently susceptible to drugs. It's the entire foundation of modern medicine. Even the smartest man in the world could easily fall victim to the strongest hallucinogen in the world.

>> No.8945575

>>8944948
I would argue it's more a measure of how easily logic comes to you, since logical thinking and spacial reasoning can also be learned.

>> No.8945578

>>8945571

There are eople that can function and distuingish between real and unreal information even while under the influence od DMT; though

>> No.8945582

>>8945578
Does that extend to other types of drug? If so, I'd like to see the study please.

>> No.8945622

>>8945582

there are various studies that show that there is cross-chemical psychological tolerance and adaptation, but I can't find any and so I completely understand why you'd think this is conjecture. Apart from that, all we could examine are the anecdotal claims of drug users who say this is the case. If the drugs are similar enough, like LSD and Psilocybin, it seems reasonable

>> No.8945634

>>8945476
Intelligence is being able to play chess really good.

Wisdom is knowing that chess is for nerds and it will never get you any pussy.

You can put me up against any super computer. I'll just pour water all over it and laugh at the nerds who built it and then go leap into a sea of pussy.

>> No.8945656

>>8945634
not quite, there's studies done
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Chess_and_intelligence

Being good at chess doesn't mean you are smart.
Chess is about experience and practice.
Only for the weakest beginners that have no clue what they are doing does being smart make a difference.

Otherwise it's experience and practice

>> No.8945714

>>8944738
>How good is IQ as a measure of "intelligence"?
Almost perfect.

IQ is all that matters.

>> No.8945846

>>8944738
>social ability

What is up with this meme? It's like it was invented by average iq normies to have something to stick to all the smart high iq autismo nerds.
Social ability really shouldn't be grouped with intelligence.

>frequency and colour recognition, linguistic skills

I'm pretty sure you can test for those.

>the ability to retain sobriety and self awareness under the influence of strong emotions or drugs

wow, you really are a normie. "ayyy nigga imma smoke you out"

SAGE

>> No.8946737
File: 48 KB, 599x1024, meanwhile, in a parallel universe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8946737

>>8945846

That last one has nothing to do with drug resistance big dickery. It's about being able to retain self control, emtional stability and sobriety under situations which negatively affect those factors.

As for social abilities, those are absolutely traits which require specific skills. Empathy, the ability to recognize shifts in the voice (volume, speed, tone, etc) body posture, analyzing the language used, the layout of a room. This come naturally to others and some must train it, the same way some need to train arithmetic.

>I'm pretty sure you can test for those

Yes, you can, like you can test IQ (not for linguistics skills though, unless you mean a specific language) but what does that mean anyways? Why take a seemingly arbitrary set of other mental faculties and group them under the banner of IQ? Why are those particular traits associated with each other and your INT stat, whereas the others aren't? Is intelligence just shorthand for "logic and pattern recognition and ease of information absorption"? Is that all "intelligence" actually means? Because people just tend to look at it in more simple terms (that nigga got a lotta brain jooce he intelligence he got an high INT stat").

What about abstract thinking? Creativity? Mental imagery? And before you say "lmao snowflake those skills aren't shit that's some new wave kindergarten shit" remember that they're key skills in philosophy, science and engineering, for example.

>> No.8946780

>>8946737
But that's the thing. The simple knowledge of arithmetic and how to do it isn't intelligence. Anyone can do it if you teach them. Social abilities are learned skills. Empathy is a learned skill.

You can't teach intelligence. It's intuitive. You can grow your intelligence by using your brain and employing all sorts of skills. Skills like musical ability, driving, even manual labor in general can affect your intelligence, but are not themselves evidence of it.

An iq test is not about how many complex equations you can solve. It's about how fluently you can solve a variety of situations using only your wits. It's how you think, not what you know.

>> No.8946793

>>8946737
>It's about being able to retain self control, emtional stability and sobriety under situations which negatively affect those factors.
This can be improved by training.

See
>>8944945

>> No.8946807

>>8946780

so... a skill is the ability you've got to do karate, and IQ is how you use it intuitively against different oponents in different matches? not literally, I meant it as an analogy of course

>> No.8947013

>>8946807
Actually, yeah pretty much

>> No.8947019

>>8947013

ok, so a skill is your sword; You maintain it, sharped it, improve the design, restructure it, then how you use it in battle versus different scenarios you didn't expect and adapt to different challenges is your intelligence? I think I'm starting to get what you mean.

>> No.8947025

>>8944738

I think IQ measures something about human intelligence, but the idea of one sort of test measuring someone's intelligence is kind of silly to me.

It's like if someone said that they had an athletic event that measured "athletic ability". It sounds ridiculous. There are people that are fast. There are people that are strong. There are people with incredible endurance. There are people that can flip through the air with incredible body control.

To say that they had a single event that would determine who's most athletic wouldn't make sense.

IQ measures something about the human brain that's correlated with success in a lot of areas, but I don't think that there's any one test that can capture all of the areas of human intelligence.

>> No.8947122

>>8947025

>when you haven't read the thread but post anyway

>> No.8948555

>>8945476
>anon redefines intelligence as "the ability to emulate a computer's decision-making process"
from the mouths of brainlets...

>> No.8948624

>>8944738
cannabis makes regular people autistic, and autistic people extremely useless

>> No.8949600

>>8948624
True

>> No.8949604

>>8948624
What if cannabis does the opposite and turns autists into normalfags?

>> No.8950544

>>8944753
You're putting the cart before the horse. Yes, there are a range of capabilities the brain allows for. Some of these we classed as cognition, others as behavior, others as personality, with some overlap between them. IQ is a decent measure of cognition, and correlates very well with various metrics related to life success.