/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.7603827]

Is intelligence inherent or can it be changed? How you do increase your intelligence /sci/?

[Anonymous No.7603832]

Apply yourself. Then try harder, and then even harder.

[Anonymous No.7603834]

Khan academy told me It can be changed by watching their videos and giving them lots of money

[Anonymous No.7603839]

>>7603834
Khan academy is such a fucking hack

he knows shit about what's behind the math in most of his videos

[Anonymous No.7603916]

>>7603839

Lol you should get your autism checked, partner.

Khan Academy is a great resource for those who might otherwise not have a chance to learn. Just because the guy doesn't go into as much detail as you like (or claim to understand), doesn't devalue it. Hop in your hugbox for an hour and then come back.

[Anonymous No.7603934]

>>7603839
then watch MIT's free courseware lessons, or are those too hard ?

[Anonymous No.7603961]

>>7603827
The general figure for heritability of IQ is about 0.5-0.8 across multiple studies in varying populations. Recent studies suggest that family environment (i.e., upbringing) has negligible long-lasting effects upon adult IQ.

You were born a dumb fucking cuck.

[Anonymous No.7603990]

>>7603827
Read a book or two, gain some experience, start crafting do lsd or painting. In someway you'll come out smarter than the average populace by doing lsd any one of those things for an extended period of time

[Anonymous No.7603994]

>>7603990
Yeah just look at this acidhead who can't even write a coherent sentence. So intelligent.

[Anonymous No.7603996]

>mfw KA playing on the background as im replying

[Anonymous No.7604011]

>>7603961

But what about epigenetics anon-kun?

Epigenetics is heritable, and can be moulded by the environment.

Or are you a meme-spouting cuckold who never took a college level bio class?

[Anonymous No.7604020]

>>7603994
I guess you didn't get the joke.

[Anonymous No.7604045]

>>7603827
Brain modification other than that your stuck with whatever your genetics gave you

[Anonymous No.7604055]

>>7603961
But that's objectively wrong you fucking retard

[Anonymous No.7604064]

>>7603827
You push yourself academically and intellectually to learn as much as you possibly can while you are young and your brain is malleable. If you're still stupid by the age of 25 you're fucked.

[Anonymous No.7604070]

>>7603827
On average human traits are 49% heritable.
> pic related
Looking at more than 14.5 million pairs on twins and more than 2.7 thousand studies.

[Anonymous No.7604072]

Intelligence can be changed.

Proof: it has been proven that, by our best efforts to quantify "intelligence", simply believing that intelligence can be changed makes someone smarter.

[Anonymous No.7604073]

>>7604064
No you idiot, intelligence has nothing to do with what you know it has everything to do with HOW FAST YOU CAN LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

There is a reason why smart people are called quick and idiots are called slow.

[Anonymous No.7604074]

>>7604055
I literally copied that from wikipedia you objective retard.

[Anonymous No.7604080]

>>7604074
> wikipedia
> not citing a meta analysis looking at thousands of studies, with millions of twins
git gud

>>7604070

[Anonymous No.7604084]

>>7604011
I'm not the other guy btw.

I've seen the same figures, yes in a university, and I've only seen epigenetic research applied to mood disorders, exactly like anxiety in your pic. This also tends to be due to hard biology, not soft social development/values crap. Though I'm no expert on the subject. If you have evidence of epigenetics influencing IQ, and especially as a result of the social environment, present it.

[Anonymous No.7604105]

>>7604073
Interesting you mention that. Is there any statistics on how fast high IQ people can process abstract concepts compared to low IQ?

[Anonymous No.7604111]

>>7603827


Since this is a thinly veiled race IQ bait thread, and since apparently some faggots think the wikipedia article on heritability of IQ is the gospel truth. It follows that everything on that article MUST be gospel truth, otherwise we can throw out the entire article as cherry picked data

[Anonymous No.7604128]

>>7604084
IGF2 methylation is correlated strongly with intelligence.
> pic related

IGF2 is an important fetal growth factor and is important for the survival of hippocampal neurons in newborns


In women who were malnourished during pregnancy there is a persisting methylation pattern in their children that lasts for 60 years, suggesting that the IGF2 gene was over expressed during development to promote neuronal survival in a nutritionally sparse "in utero" environment (pic in the next post)

[Anonymous No.7604130]

>>7604084
>>7604128

[Anonymous No.7604140]

>>7604084
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892514/
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/44/17046.long

[Anonymous No.7604141]

>>7604128
>>7604130

Links please, want to read more.

[Anonymous No.7604142]

>>7604140
k

[Anonymous No.7604143]

>>7604084
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134%2FS1022795412080029#/page-1

since >>7604128 isn't particularly clear about IGF2 and the link to cognitive function

[Anonymous No.7604153]

>>7604084
Also, any gene being expressed in the brain is only expressed as a product of epigenetics. Since every cell has to undergo particular epigenetic modulations during (for example) cell division; such as histone acetylation to allow transcription factors to access a gene.

Since a cell HAS to undergo chromosomal condensation during cell divison (and makes use of histones to do so); every gene is influenced by histone interactions, and so every gene is influenced by epigenetics by default.

The only issue here is differences in epigenetics between individuals and the effects it has on a phenotype.

But if you look at pic related. A tiny number of CpG methylation sites (71) correlate with Alzheimer severity out of more than 415 thousand. It's not unreasonable to extrapolate that dysfunctional epigenetics can lead to similar mental disabilities (and potentially above average mental abilities), since there are so many sites for CpG methylation. Without taking into account the several other epigenetic mechanisms

[Anonymous No.7604155]

>>7603827
Does intelligence have a precise definition?

[Anonymous No.7604162]

>>7604142
>>7604141
I'm gonna have to make a copypasta, because the amount of general ignorance about epigenetics on a science board is staggering.

I suppose it's just the product of /sci/ appealing mostly to non-bio majors (physics/math/engineering/etc) and /sci/ being frequented by memeposters and trolls

[Anonymous No.7604166]

>>7604143
Your sources conflict anon.

>The minor DNMT3L allele, associated here with a higher level of adult intelligence, was associated with a significantly lower level of methylation in IGF2 using the same statistical model

>Here we show that individuals who were prenatally exposed to famine during the Dutch Hunger Winter in 1944-45 had, 6 decades later, less DNA methylation of the imprinted IGF2 gene compared with their unexposed, same-sex siblings

In the first case less methylation correlates with higher intelligence, in the second case less methylation correlates with lower intelligence. Unless the claim is that the epigenetic changes caused by starvation are in fact intellectually advantageous.

[Anonymous No.7604171]

>>7603827

[Anonymous No.7604172]

>>7604153
All you've said here is that epigenetics is a thing. This makes it plausible that an epigenetic mechanism may exist that influences IQ. This is not the same thing as presenting evidence of such a mechanism.

[Anonymous No.7604175]

>>7604166
>in the second case less methylation correlates with lower intelligence

This is how I know you're bullshitting. A quick search function of the second article shows no reference to intelligence or IQ. So you are making up data

In the second source, they are malnourished.
The reason the gene is less methylated is to compensate for that malnourishment (otherwise the statistics wouldn't be significantly correlated, and malnutrition of the mother isn't affected by the childs epigenetics), and continue normal brain development (as much as possible).

It's not conflicting at all. You are just trying to make up shit. Or you are sincerely mistaken. But given this is /sci/ and this is a IQ bait thread, I'll assume the first, even if it makes me an ass

[Anonymous No.7604177]

>>7604172
Present me a MECHANISM that genetics causes any changes in IQ, beyond a twin study. Since that just suggests a mechanism but doesn't prove it.

[Anonymous No.7604191]

>>7604175
I'm not bullshitting you, actually I think you're bullshitting me.

Why do you even make mention of the dutch hunger winter paper if you aren't talking about intelligence? Surely the claim is thus:

>Prenatal exposure to starvation leads to epigenetic changes which lower intelligence permanently in the infant, via reduced IGF2 gene methylation

Yet this conflicts with the other paper which says the opposite is the case: reduced IGF2 gene methylation is correlated with higher adult intelligence.

So what exactly are you saying? If you're not talking about intelligence, what relevance does your starvation paper have to the discussion?

[Anonymous No.7604202]

>>7604191
>>Prenatal exposure to starvation leads to epigenetic changes which lower intelligence permanently in the infant, via reduced IGF2 gene methylation

That is your interpretation.

If we go back to my original post is said

> IGF2 methylation is correlated strongly with intelligence.

> IGF2 is an important fetal growth factor and is important for the survival of hippocampal neurons in newborns

> In women who were malnourished during pregnancy there is a persisting methylation pattern in their children that lasts for 60 years, suggesting that the IGF2 gene was over expressed during development to promote neuronal survival in a nutritionally sparse "in utero" environment (pic in the next post)


My relevance to the starvation paper is that the environment effects methylation of the IGF2 gene. Specifically that the IGF2 methylation is reduced in response to malnutrition.

Then I show clear evidence from 2 papers
>>7604143
>>7604128
That reduced IGF2 methylation correlates strongly with higher intelligence


Since the intelligence of Dutch Famine children is not mentioned AT ALL in the paper, your assumption is retarded. For all we know, their intelligence was normal, or perhaps above average.

The only point I'm making is that environment can influence the epigenetics of genes which are important for neuronal survival and intelligence.

If you are interpreting anything else, it is your own bias blinding you. But maybe you can see something I can't so can you present a clear, explanation of your view point which doesn't try to claim something not present in the publications

[Anonymous No.7604205]

>>7604177
You don't even have that much. You have the concept of epigenetics. That's it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25192656

GABRB1 modulates intelligence. Mutations to GABRB1 are obviously heritable. How's that?

[Anonymous No.7604214]

I have a friend who studies maths at one of the best math universities of the world.

His life changed entirely when he started going to that university. From literally zero work he started to work 24/7 on his education, merely taking maybe a hour of break a day.

Then when the usual 3 month break between semesters happened he was the same old fag like before. Watching his shitty let's plays 24/7 while not a single noticeable improvement in his life. He was literally the exact same person as before the year of hard work. There wasn't anything noticeable and he himself stated that he didn't notice any improvements. It's not even that he didn't want to become a better person, he hated wasting time on youtube. He really wanted to better himself.

So not even can't you get more intelligent you probably also can't learn willpower or discipline. That's all traits that you have or you don't.

Or maybe you need to have a special kind of trait to be able to change.

[Anonymous No.7604218]

>>7603827
most of the environmental changes happen in childhood or teenage years
learning a language or instrument im pretty sure increases IQ by 3-5 points each even as an adult though

[Anonymous No.7604221]

>>7604205

> You have the concept of epigenetics. That's it.
You obviously lack reading comprehension.

Epigenetics modulates IGF2. IGF2 modulates neuronal survival. Neuronal survival is important for intelligence.

> GABRB1 modulates intelligence. Mutations to GABRB1 are obviously heritable.

That's good. So know we know that intelligence is genetic, epigenetic and environmental.

Which is consistent with the post here >>7604070 that 49% of human traits are heritable.

It shows that about 50% isn't heritable. And if it isn't heritable, it has to be the product of environment and environment-gene (aka non-heritable epigenetics) interaction

[Anonymous No.7604222]

>>7604202
The typical counter-point is that malnutrition causes lowered IQ. Your information concerning epigenetics actually implies that malnutrition, prenatally at least, would cause increased IQ. This is contradictory.

If you are not making that point, fair enough. But then all you're doing is demonstrating the possibility of an effect, rather than an actual effect. Which I think is rather weak. I never denied the possibility, I asked for evidence of it.

[Anonymous No.7604227]

>mfw when bellowaverage IQ

[Anonymous No.7604236]

>>7604222

Again.
IGF2 modulates neuronal survival.
IGF2 is epigenetically regulated
Neuronal survival is important for intelligence.

IGF2 CAN be AFFECTED by malnutrition.

There is an insane amount of difficulty in studying epigenetics, in comparison to genetics; which would probably be well recognized as early as a third year undergrad.

Genetics is easy to study.
Epigenetics is inherently more difficult since you need to test the actual cells themselves; it would be possible if a researcher looked into cre-lox of high expression and low expression of the same alleles of IGF2 in otherwise identical mise and looked at their "intelligence" by morris water maze and other tests.

Epigenetics has only been defined in the last 7 years, so it's still early

[Anonymous No.7604241]

>>7604236
> mise
Obviously mice
Fuck my sleep deprived brain.
I'm out. Enough talking with undergrads/high schoolers on a website dedicated to 0.999...=/=1 and ayyliums found threads

[Anonymous No.7604242]

>>7603827
It can be changed but it requires you to not be a retard so good luck if you already are one.

The best you can hope for is someone smarter helping you out but they're under no obligation to help you so you're at their mercy.

[Anonymous No.7604243]

It's really hard to decide for sure if intelligence can't be gained. There are maybe less than 2% of people in this world that really try actively to gain intelligence.

And if you could gain intelligence, how many people possess the traits, the creativity, the innvoation and the willpower to get trough that? In the end it all comes back to inherited talents, talents that may as well translate to intelligence to begin with.

[Anonymous No.7604246]

>>7604020
The joke is that acidheads think taking LSD makes them smart.

[Anonymous No.7604250]

>>7604241
I'm not an undergrad baby. Not in your field though. Thanks for the discussion I found it informative, though my opinion remains the same.

[Anonymous No.7604280]

The brain is such a complex and flexible organ that I doubt that it's impossible to become more intelligent. I think a lot of it has to do with the way we think generally. Everyone has his own way of thinking thoughts. If we improve this ways, if we modify them, what would stop us to be more intelligent? Though it would be really hard to force yourself at all times into your improved way of thinking since not only is it uncomfortable, takes a lot of concentration, but also it gets partly broken everytime you go to sleep and lose all your focus. Who could actually keep up focusing one entire week on this task?

[Anonymous No.7604296]

>>7604171
Except that the car adapts itself to experience. So if you live like a Ferrari you become one.

[Anonymous No.7604315]

>>7604221
Wait wait wait, so let me see if my little and retarded mind understood this right. 50% of all the studied traits cannot be explained by heritability, thus they can only be explained by the influence of the environment and non hereditary epigenetics, which means that a lot of our traits are either random or environment-influenced. Is that right?

If yes, what does "environment-influenced" means? Our actions, routine, food, and similar things?

[Anonymous No.7604648]

>>7603827
>neuroplasticity
look up barbara arrowsmith young

[Anonymous No.7604673]

>>7604111
>It follows that everything on that article MUST be gospel truth, otherwise we can throw out the entire article as cherry picked data
That is a logical fallacy Anon, you should know better than that.

Wikipedia articles present a plurality of verifiable sources related to a subject, including opposing views, criticism and untrue statements just as facts.

The main theme is notability not truthfulness, think of it as a neutral collection of memory on the subject. Objective truth is achieved by verifying experimentation.

[Anonymous No.7604681]

>>7604162

thank god, another bio poster in the sea of memes

[Anonymous No.7604690]

>>7604648
Researching this. Interesting stuff

[Anonymous No.7604720]

>>7603827

It's not really possible to increase you intelligence by any appreciable measure but what you can do is reduce any chance of decreasing your intelligence.

Most people's intelligence decreases at a small rate throughout life, a big part of this is due to microconcussions, any time you bump your head it causes microtrauma and can cause fibrous plaques to form in your brain, over a lifetime it can lead to mild to moderate dementia.

The solution OP is to put on a bicycle helmet as soon as you wake up and wear it constantly. The more you wear it the lower the probability that you get any sort of microconcussion,k the sum of which can noticeably decrease your intelligence. This is what I would recommend.

[Anonymous No.7604740]

There isn't much that can be done to make it better, this trait is really impervious to all these soft cultural environmental factors shitlibs drone on about, just look into all the attempts made by do-gooders in inner cities schools. They practically exhausted every modification possible to no lasting change in results. There was some gap-bridging per-pubescent yet the disparities crystallize and manifest afterward, as is seen with the trends in male/female IQ. However, there is plenty that can be done to make it worse.

[Anonymous No.7604741]

>>7603827

chinese cartoons are for stupid people OP

[Anonymous No.7604772]

>>7604741
it was the only way to you faggots' attention

[Anonymous No.7604808]

>>7604296
>Except that the car adapts itself to experience. So if you live like a Ferrari you become one.
no it doesn't. you can take a black baby and put it to live with a white family yet the black adult will never have a high IQ.
You're a fucking idiot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

[Anonymous No.7604812]

>>7604808
honestly if you said the same statements about any other trait but intelligence, like athleticism, no one would take treat that claim seriously, but we have to be walk on eggshells and be sensitive about this one.

[Anonymous No.7604819]

>>7604812
yes, it's insanity of the left. here's a good article that explains what's going on:

>The Fall of the Meritocracy

>The left loathes the concept of IQ -- especially the claim that it helps to determine socio-economic status, rather than vice versa -- because of a near-religious attachment to the idea that man is a piece of clay that can be moulded into any shape by society

http://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/09/fall-meritocracy/

[Anonymous No.7605400]

>>7603827
Inherent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

[Anonymous No.7605411]

>>7604648
This. Neuroplasticity says that our intelligence is fluid. This was the rage a few years ago with Stanford/MIT creating "intelligence" games. They had scientific rigor behind it. Also new research into the brain frontal lobe shows that it doesn't stop developing until the ages of 28-30. So if you want to "get" smart. READ. Just like the ancient Greeks always said. The best cure to old age is learning something new.

[Anonymous No.7605472]

>>7604011
I actually hate this epigenetics crap. The proteins that influence epigenetics, like DNA methylases, all exist on the normal genome. Ergo epigenetics is normally genetically controlled.
The other thing that strikes me is that this whole line of argument wrt the importance of the maternal environment in regulating future genetic potential only reared it's head after the studies on the heritability of IQ showed such a high correlation, like 0.8. It seems to me that some researchers are desperate to find non-genetic factors influencing IQ and essentially pushed the search further and further back into the life span until they've gotten to the point where they are looking for factors in utero. They MUST be aware that they are literally one step away from the point of conception.

>Or are you a meme-spouting cuckold who never took a college level bio class?

First class honors degree; Molecular Biology. Never finished my PhD.

>>7603961

It sucks in a way, and its politically untenable, but the research does seem to indicate that this is the case. Ignore all the Epigenetic smoke blowing, and especially the guy who replied by calling this poster a "retard" without an ounce of supporting evidence for his position

>>7604055

I kinda think this research is way more explosive than it should be. If we find the genes that predispose for IQ, I really dont expect the sky to fall on any of us. I can't understand how emotional people get over this.

[Anonymous No.7605478]

>>7605411
Neuroplasticity is so out of fashion it's not funny. Steven Pinker does a good takedown of it on a lecture he gave regarding his book "The Blank Slate". To paraphrase him, his argument ran along the lines of ". . . the modern version of the blank slate is neuroplasticity, or the plastic brain. The plastic brain has the same fundamental problem as the blank slate- blank slates and bits of plastic dont do anything . . "

[Anonymous No.7605482]

>>7604819
C'mon man don't make it a left or right thing. You're welcome to leave for /pol/, but this is a science board. I may be wrong in trusting Bouchard's evidence, old mate might be wrong in postulating epigenetic influence on IQ. We can use strong language, i've even called the epigenetic stuff "crap", but lets keep this about the data. How about not entering the argument by saing he is "insane" because he is "lefty". For all you know he could be comfortably conservative middle class WASP.

[Anonymous No.7605503]

Phenotype = Genotype + Ambient

[Carbon No.7605518]

>>7603827
define intelligence
Learning speed?
Study more.

[Anonymous No.7605523]

>>7605518
>define intelligence
This will provide me with a lifetime supply of keks. /sci/ goes on a full autism war trying to define it.

[Anonymous No.7605526]

>>7603827
>How you do increase your intelligence /sci/?

With 4chan.
1 hour of 4chan = increase IQ by 10 points

[Anonymous No.7605527]

you can increase your capacity to solve logical puzzles by learning math

[Anonymous No.7605528]

>>7605482
>don't make it a left or right thing

He didn't make it ideological. It already was.

The left is in denial about the science here, just as parts of the right are in denial about climate change and even evolution.

They are on a losing horse here as the genes responsible for intelligence are being rapidly mapped. (there are many such genes, each of which usually has a fairly small effect on its own).

We know IQ is highly heritable and we know that, within very wide bounds, IQ (and personality) are not much influenced by environment. This is why intervention experiments have been such a resounding failure.

IQ strongly predicts many important outcomes in life, particularly performance in cognitively demanding tasks and occupations.

[Anonymous No.7605535]

>>7605528
IQ =/= Intelligence

[Anonymous No.7605539]

>>7605528
>The left is in denial about the science here, just as parts of the right are in denial about climate change and even evolution.

You have no idea how often I like to repeat this point. It's why I just don't even want to hear the terms left or right uttered in the debate. Keep it about the data. Guy above is batting for an epigenetic effect on IQ. I don't agree, but he posted a convincing thesis, with peer reviewed journal articles and a possible mechanism via methylation of the IGF2 allele. We can debate those points. Do you know whats not helpful? Bringing up the political orientation of the poster.

[Anonymous No.7605556]

There is probably such a thing as potential intelligence and momentarily intellignece.

Take some lazy fuck who feeds his brain all day comfortable trash TV. There is no way that he won't get more intelligent the moment he switches to stidying maths, learning an instrument and doing other mental workouts daily.

So in a sense you can raise your intelligence because I doubt anyone in this thread unlocked his full potential in that regard.

[Anonymous No.7605558]

Read books and enjoy life

[Anonymous No.7605585]

>>7605478
>trying to pass popsci analogies for empirical evidence

I have empirical evidence of the contrary though

[Anonymous No.7605594]

>>7603916
Khan himself detected