/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.7602562]

Scientifically speaking what is the role of transgender people? Or perhaps a better way to put it is: "What causes transgenderism and is there really any scientific basis for having a brain (or body depending on how you want to look at it) of the wrong sex?"

And a separate question, have there been any peer reviewed studies on the psychology of "traps', that is men who dress and act like women to attract other men, essentially taking on the mannerisms mating rituals of the opposite sex while also holding the belief that they are indeed males themselves?

[Anonymous No.7602563]

>>7602562
>mannerisms mating rituals
mannerisms and mating rituals

[Anonymous No.7602577]

>>7602562
Scientifically speaking, there is no statistical significance to transgendered people.

[Anonymous No.7602581]

What's all this tranny posting in /sci/ all of a sudden? Is it enough to fill /lgbt/ with tranny threads?

[Anonymous No.7602585]

>>7602577
That really didn't answer the question at all.

[Anonymous No.7602589]

>>7602562
is called sexual dismorphia and since there's no cure we chop their weener off so they stop bawling
that's it.

[Anonymous No.7602640]

>>7602562
I think what you mean by transgenderism is gender dysphoria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

[Anonymous No.7602648]

It's all the estrogen in our water.

[Anonymous No.7602705]

>>7602562
Their role is to serve as sex toys.

[Anonymous No.7602862]

>>7602562
The current theory is that it is caused by hormone levels in the womb, so I'm not sure there is necessarily a beneficial role they have to the human race the way there would have to be if it was genetic.

>>7602581
Probably because it's been in the media a lot lately, and because the discussions in /lgbt/ are too polarized and they want to get a neutral perspective.

[Anonymous No.7602878]

Whatever "trend" going on is inhabited by the attention whores and people who desperately look for ways to feel different. They claim they are normal people just like everyone else but they don't act like it. They can't hold themselves back to flaunt their difference and make sure it's known by everyone like it's an achievement.

It's not like they're trying to show off their natural difference or anything. These people didn't born with these hormones, they fill themselves up with estrogen to change themselves so they can be "outsanding ones"

We used to have furfags who screamed that they were furfags even online, then we had the emos who wore exaggerated makeups so people can recognize them from miles away, and now we have these. It's in like a competition with itself to appear even more different from the previous trends.

[Anonymous No.7602940]

>>7602862
Right, now that you mentioned it, I remember that Caitlyn Jenner episode. The perspective they get here is that it's a mental condition, in /lgbt/ they also filling the whole board with their "DO I PASS?" or "AM I TRANS IF I LIKE MY GIRL TINKLER?" stuff. They have their generals, they still flood the catalog with threads isomorphic to those "How do I differentiate x^2 with respect to x?" or "If I had scissors with 1,5 lightyear blades, would their tips go faster than light?", but these are, gladly, atleast occasionally posted as stupid questions in the threads dedicated to just that.

[Anonymous No.7602945]

who fucking cares dude, I mean honestly

[Anonymous No.7602963]

>>7602562

They are so few in number that it's unlikely they are intended. Just an unfortunate by product of our incredibly complicated evolutionary history. It's likely that the traits that make them as they are have some benign function when taen apart, or perhaps when combined with another geneplex. It could be like how schizophrenics are a useless mess, but their RELATIVES, who have some but not the schizophrenic's traits, are unusually creative and intelligent.

[Anonymous No.7603130]

>>7602562
There is no role. It's a mental disorder in the same way BIID is.

[Anonymous No.7603154]

People who get alienated from their bodily properties and limitations can delude themselves into thinking they are the opposite sex, a messiah or even spiderman. It's not the first case of mental illness we had and it won't be the last.

[Anonymous No.7603164]

>>7602562
As I understand it, being transgendered amounts to the following:

>I was born sex A, but I identify with the cultural gender roles of sex B.

Which means it is a cultural phenomenon, not a biological one.

[Anonymous No.7603196]

>>7603164
Premature conclusion and unfinished thought. Cultural phenomena have their roots in biology. Dismissing the recent abundance of all things 'queer' with a simple "such are the times" is lazy thinking, considering that culture isn't the only thing that has seen drastic changes. Diet, health care, lifestyle, cosmetic chemicals and habits etc. are all seeing unprecedented innovations, and we're only just figuring out some of the consequences. Sugar overuse and packaging chemicals are just some of the more prominent examples. Pretty much nothing can be viewed as isolated as social scientists (and others) would like to.

[Anonymous No.7603197]

>>7603164
It usually manifests very early in life, before the person really understands what gender roles are. It's been suggested that it's developed prenatally, though it certainly becomes a social problem later in life when your social interactions are a constant reminder of your physical gender

[Anonymous No.7603202]

I don't think there's anything particularly profound going on.

Humans have a sex and behaviours related to sex defined by their chemicals or whatever during development as well as outside stimuli.

Sometimes they get mixed up and you get a person whose sex and gender-behaviours that don't align.

If they want to follow their gender over their sex I don't really care as long as they do a good job of it. If a big greasy hairy fat dude wearing a wig says he's transgender he's fucking not because he's not put any effort in- faggot's just pretending for attention.

[Anonymous No.7603242]

>>7602562
Mental mutations is the cause of transgenderism, this is like asking what causes bipolar disorder, also all trannies are mentally ill.

[Anonymous No.7603248]

>>7603196
But what we're discussing is inherently cultural. Gender roles vary by culture, in some cultures being the very opposite of others, and in some cultures being more similar while further apart in others.

There's no switch in your brain for "what a girl in the US is stereotyped to be", it's learned behaivor.

>>7603197
>It usually manifests very early in life, before the person really understands what gender roles are.

Which means what, exactly? Baby boys playing with barbies?

Considering how the parents react (either very negatively or very positively) and how society reacts (very negatively) to an incredibly neutral act (playing with a piece of human-shaped plastic), of course some people will get fucked in the head and think they were born wrong.

[Anonymous No.7603269]

>>7603248
No not like playing with barbies, like dressing as the other gender and fantasizing about transformation.

If you know anyone who is transgender, you should ask them about their childhood, it's very internal at that age and can be subtle

[Anonymous No.7603290]

Besides vague psychological definitions of the onset of mental disorders, I don't think there's a scientific definition for it.

However, homosexuality I'm genuinely curious about, whether it's biological/onset from birth, or it's a psychological attribute that's dependent on life experiences.

[Anonymous No.7603298]

>>7603290
Everything that you are is a result of chemical processes occurring in your brain. Homosexuality is exactly that, a form of chemical imbalance in the brain which causes them to feel attracted to the same gender.

The behavior itself though, that's entirely psychological and based on life experiences yeah.

Am I saying you can fix gay? Yes, you could stop their feelings of attraction and such but they'd be so used to being gay, they'd probably keep having sex with people of the same gender because that feels safe to them.

[Anonymous No.7603313]

>>7602562
>/sci/ tier
I'm sure it's part genetic, part epigenetic.
There's a predisposition towards its potential that can be triggered by epigenetic reactions.

>/x/ tier
Neither gender is empowered in this now.
It's a lot easier for someone to slip into divine feminine than it is to slip into divine masculine. In order for balance to be restored on Earth, BOTH genders will have to rise into their divine states. Being female in a male body shows us the extreme amount of pressure males are under to achieve stuff to feel valuable to a female perspective. Being male in a female body shows just how much shit women go through to a male perspective.
It's a thought exercise for our species. So that we may finally understand what divine masculinity and femininity actually fucking look like interacting with each other. btw it's VERY fucking complimentary.

[Anonymous No.7603316]

Guys I think OP was talking about wha purpose do trans people and related whatnot serve in the survival of the species.

To which I would reple that it's a consequence of overpopulation and all roles being fullfilled. Through either social or biological reasons your body shifts towards removing your ability to reproduce. Maybe it's easer to survive as the other gender, even in just a pretender form, maybe it's driven by some grand subconscious that governs the whole species, etc etc. The point is, it reduces the population growth, the competition for mates. They're basically eunuchs, and we've had thise since the dawn of civilization, the only differences is they do it willingly.

I mean, think about it. Maybe untold people throughout history have had these issues, but the only time they have an effect is im times of great prosperity, the Greeks, the Pax Romana. And in times of scarcity, these people would have no choice but to either suck it up and mate normally, or just die, because they would be a burden to the survival of the group.

[Anonymous No.7603318]

>>7603316
Man fuck phone typing

[Anonymous No.7603321]

This is why I love /sci/, touchy topics can be discussed without appeals to emotion. At least there's some rational thought behind posts.

[Anonymous No.7603360]

>>7603248
>Gender roles vary by culture,

Not really, no.

>in some cultures being the very opposite of others,

Please cite even a single example of this.

Transgenders aren't transvestites, what they want is to be the other sex, not necessarily to /appear/ or even /act/ like the other sex. It's a body dis-morphia disorder, not "cultural" except in the trivial sense that everything is cultural for a cultural mammal such as ourselves.

[Anonymous No.7603376]

>>7602562
There is no strongly supported scientific explanation (from real science) for why people are like this

[Anonymous No.7603403]

>>7602878
probably this tbh

[Anonymous No.7603471]

autogynephilia or gay dudes who aren't comfortable with being gay.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894986/

people are too afraid to do any testing on this now.

[Anonymous No.7603485]

>>7603471
Its not gay if one of you is wearing a skirt.

[Anonymous No.7603512]

>all these posts and not one geneticist

[Anonymous No.7603787]

>>7603512
What would a geneticist really have to add here?

[Anonymous No.7604228]

>>7602562

[Anonymous No.7604295]

>>7602562
Science can't answer that question, but occultism can.

[Anonymous No.7604301]

Simply put, sometimes hormones be crazy mang, not everything has some evolutionary advantage

[Anonymous No.7604395]

>>7602562
>I'm a woman, that's why I need to take this oestrogen and cut up my penis; so that I can be a woman
Straight up mental disease.

[Anonymous No.7604421]

>>7603787

uhhhhh the fact that all fetuses start as human females, for one.

the difference between male and female sex development is so miniscule it's statistically insignificant. like in terms of the genome

[Anonymous No.7604829]

>>7604421
Will science ever give us futas?

[Anonymous No.7604832]

>>7602562
>Scientifically speaking

putting those words in front of a retarded question doesn't make it not retarded.

[Anonymous No.7604874]

>>7602562
It doesn't serve any point; it is simply a mental disorder.

[Anonymous No.7605636]

Although it's just personal opinion, I like to believe that transgenderism is largely a consequence of self-loathing as a side effect of self-victimization. Society is creating a world in which everyone thinks they're a victim of something and it's fucking with the minds of people.

[Anonymous No.7605723]

>>7605636
>Society
Transgenderism has been recorded in many different civilizations, so it's not just a "western degenerate society" thing. The Spanish missionaries to the new world wrote at length about the native indians who would choose one effeminate boy to be raised as a girl and eventually marry a man.

[Anonymous No.7605727]

>>7605723
The history of society is the history of the secret societies that govern it.

[Anonymous No.7605839]

>>7602562
>draw a flat chested girl
>give it a dick
this is why people think if you are into DFC you are gay

[Anonymous No.7605842]

>>7605723
That sounds like a top tier doujin man.

[Anonymous No.7605866]

>>7605636
I mean as long as you realize your personal opinion has no basis in fact. That's kind of like having a personal opinion on flu vaccines

[Anonymous No.7605874]

It's because bio accumulation of hormones, and pharmasutical scrim eating corn fed beef.
the run off causes strange sex characteristics in fish, and I'm sure it's the cause of LGBTQ and the rising trend of the "man bun."

[Anonymous No.7605889]

It's just natural population regulation

[Anonymous No.7605990]

There are two different kinds of trannies:
a) Males who did not receive the proper amount of prenatal testosterone. Proof is in digit ratios and fMRIs -- MtFs in this scenario have similar brains and digit ratios as females and on the flip side lesbians have similar brains and digit ratios as males. One theory, that admittedly is all speculation, is that it relates to population control. After birth, genetics determine the biological path for the most part but the digit ratio and brain's development are never course-corrected

2) People with a form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder who worry about being transgender incessantly and feel relief when they tell someone they are (similar to hypochondriacs). This kind usually manifests as autogynephilia and compulsory crossdressing

[Anonymous No.7606463]

>>7605727

muh illuminerty amirite?

[Anonymous No.7606484]

The species gains by having males be widely varied. Then the females have a wider selection from which to choose their mate.

This is why men have more varied IQs, personalities, and abilities than women.

[Anonymous No.7606502]

>>7606484
While I don't mind agreeing with that, I hope you're not saying men are better than women because of this.

[Anonymous No.7606515]

>>7606502
Men are better than women tho.

[Anonymous No.7606530]

>>7606502
His point is that men are under far more evolutionary pressure, and they can cause more "evolutionary steering" too.
Nearly every woman can reproduce, while men must compete for the privilege.

[Anonymous No.7606546]

>>7606502
Better at almost everything.

The only thing a woman is supposed to be good at is attracting men and knowing what makes one man better than another.

Women do help the species in other ways of course, they can find food and even fight and build things, but primarily their purpose is to judge and select men.

[Anonymous No.7606570]

>>7606484
I agree with your statements.

One thing not brought up is that there is a statisticaly significant difference in MtF and FtM trans people. This might have something to do with everyone being a female first, then developing later.

My take is mental illness born from chemical imbalance, now with more pressure from society than ever. Little has to do with some evolutionary tactic for population control. Even that theory for the gays is pretty weak.

[Anonymous No.7606604]

>>7602562

For the second part of your question, a lot of males mimic females in various species (most notably those possessing some sort of chamaleontic abilities, like the cuttlefish). This is done to either get protected by another male, or to scamper around the females unhindred by the unsuspecting male

[Anonymous No.7607335]

>>7606546
>The only thing a woman is supposed to be good at is attracting men and knowing what makes one man better than another.

But men are better at both of those things. Men make better women than women!

[Anonymous No.7607383]

>>7602562
>Scientifically speaking what is the role of transgender people?

trannies are here to serve as the epitome of fuckedup ness due to political correctness and a bad example so that other people can realize how lucky they are not to be that messed up

/thread

[Anonymous No.7607427]

>>7602589
>no cure

Well I have an idea
Pic sorta related

[Anonymous No.7607443]

>>7607335
even Wikipedia agrees

[Anonymous No.7607444]

>>7607383
>the epitome of fuckedup ness due to political correctness
that doesn't seem very scientific

[Anonymous No.7607457]

>>7607444

yeah I should have typed something more psycho-babble-ish

so just do an internet search for phrases like

transgender regret
sex change regret

basically just because it has become socially & politically incorrect to criticize goofballs or people with serious mental issues and instead it is now ok to humor them and let them follow their warped desires somehow thinking that political correctness trumps normal mental health

well surprise it doesn't

somebody who is mentally ill or has serious personality mental issues will not suddenly "get better" by following those urges

and society approving this b.s. doesn't change anything either

is that better ?

[Anonymous No.7607460]

>>7607457
>just do an internet search
that doesn't seem very scientific

[Anonymous No.7607462]

>>7607460

your trolling isn't very scientific either

fuck off

[Anonymous No.7607466]

>>7607462
I'm not trolling. In fact, if you were to look into actual psychological studies, trannies are more likely to be happier following the dickchop which doesn't really support your unscientific claims

[Anonymous No.7607476]

>>7607466

well post them pal

internet search yields 1000s of results to counter your claim

[Anonymous No.7607490]

>>7607466
>>7607476
I honestly think that this is the type of subject where there's so much junk science on both sides of the bias that you'll never be able to actually get a conclusive answer without conducting your own study. In my personal experience there are two types of trannies.

Misguided faggots

and

Trutrans(r)(tm)

There are plenty of people who exhibited behaviours atypical of their gender role as children who grew up to be typical males or misguided faggots. The best way to tell for sure is a brain scan. Also apparently taking oestrogen before 25ish can cause the brain to become more feminized as well so there's that. I recommend letting people do whatever they want and letting anyone who gets suicidal kill themselves. That way everything will sort itself out in 15-20 years.

[Anonymous No.7607494]

>>7607490
see >>7605990

[Anonymous No.7607502]

>>7607490
>Misguided faggots

there are lots of these and the standard sociological argument was that these homos were warped not because of their sexual orientation but because society was so repressive of their abhorrent behavior

well now society in USA at least is very tolerant and even supportive and dominating for homos to suppress the heteros and surprise there are still plenty of

>Misguided faggots

out there

so what is ? is there really some connection between being homo and having some kind of warped brain ?

this topic cannot even be studied because of political correctness as it would involve classifying people according to their sex pref and then tracking statistics for crime and other kinds of objective measures of misguidedness

same b.s. happens with crime & race - are blacks really more crime prone or is that an artifact of being repressed by whites racism

so i'm convinced the truth is out there somewhere........

[Anonymous No.7607574]

>>7607502
the closest thing that's been done were studies like >>7603471 but they'd have to be longitudinal and more widespread. So it'll never happen.

[Anonymous No.7608044]

More flame bait to give /pol/tarded stormfronters mouthpieces.

Hay guys check out my edgy views on X. I hate everyone, but like to focus my rage on X people because they are an easy target.
By the way if you disagree you are a redditor SJdoublejew mcfedora cuck.

[Anonymous No.7609626]

>>7602585
Scientifically speaking, it absolutely did.

[Anonymous No.7609650]

>>7602562
>gender is a social construct
>you can be born with mismatching gender for your sex

R-right, okay then.

[Anonymous No.7609993]

>>7602562
d
e
f
e
c
t

[Anonymous No.7611451]

>>7602562
What the fuck is wrong with them?

[Anonymous No.7611466]

implying mental illness has a purpose

[Anonymous No.7611484]

>>7602562
It's either a genetic defect or the result of an incorrect hormone sequence being sent to the fetus by the mother's brain.

To my knowledge transgendered humans cannot sire or gestate children naturally.

[Anonymous No.7611618]

>>7602878
yeah sorry but Mayo clinic closed shop on Transgenders citing sex reassignment therapy/surgery did not change clinical outcomes significantly.

tl;dr transgenders gonna suicide anyways

Basically, mental disorder in either case whether it be because of some structualist problem ( hormone affectors are ∆ than hormone effectors ) or some other brain disconnect.

[Anonymous No.7611659]

>>7611466
it definitely does though most aren't useful

[Anonymous No.7611690]

>>7611618
>>7611659
man i am #1 thread killer NA

[Anonymous No.7612911]

>>7609993
T
H
I
S

[Anonymous No.7613108]

>>7602562
>posting literal semen demon

[Anonymous No.7613253]

>>7611451
>pansexual rather than bisexual because of the latter term's binary implications

this is getting ridiculous

[Anonymous No.7613259]

>>7613253
why? if you reject the gender binary it's perfectly reasonable to want a replacement term for bisexual

[Anonymous No.7613268]

>>7613259
Rejecting the gender binary is the one where they went too far. There's nothing wrong with males having "female" in their passport etc. but now we're trying to say that there are as many genders as people can come up with.
If I said I'm Homo Klaatu Xingon instead of Homo Sapiens would the scientific community be obliged to consider a new species just for me?

[Anonymous No.7613302]

Trying to reason at pop-sci levels about this shit is stupid. Let's just take a look at our two closest relatives:
>Chimpanzees
>Will fight for domination with literally anything
>Doesn't even have to be the same species

>Bonobos
>Will fuck literally anything
>Doesn't even have to be the same species

Mix these two together, add a couple orders of magnitude to the intelligence, and introduce language and intricate social structures. Oh hey, turns out it's way too fucking complicated to understand, surprise surprise.

Yes, of course we can identify people who have xx or xy chromosomes but due to hormonal balances in the womb didn't develop as such, or other similar genetic factors that screw with things in obvious ways, but once you factor human identity into the mix? All bets are off, we don't know shit, so stop pretending otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way of addressing anything dealing with identity is on a social level, not a scientific one (unless you are a scientist who works in an explicitly related field, of course). And the best way of understanding it socially is "let people behave and identify however they want, so long as it doesn't impede on anyone else's rights." Transgender people pretty cleanly fit into the space of not impeding on anything, so why does it even matter, they are who they say they are.

[Anonymous No.7613309]

>>7613268
The "scientific community" doesn't care what you consider yourself. People who interact with you might, but if you think scientists are going to stop identifying correlations with XX vs XY chromosomes in results because we suddenly understand that gender identity isn't binary, you're a moron. How a person identifies their own gender doesn't change their genetics, and how a person identifies their own species doesn't either. So call yourself whatever you want, science does not care.

[Anonymous No.7613465]

>>7602963
never heard of this before, thats damn interesting
relatives in what sense?

[Anonymous No.7613496]

>>7613268
the gender binary makes classifying intersex people very difficult.
gender isn't binary, but it absolutely is bimodal and bidirectional.

[Anonymous No.7613506]

>>7613302

>decides humans are really a "mix" of two ape species

>"but due to hormonal balances in the womb didn't develop as such"
>gibberish
>doesn't realize almost all sex hormones develop with the onset of puberty; that is literally the definition of puberty

>As far as I'm concerned, the only way of addressing anything dealing with identity is on a social level, not a scientific one

That's because it's bullshit.

>I identify as Napoleon Bonaparte, and you shall address me as "L'empereur"
>No?
>STOP OPPRESSING ME!

Anyone who "identifies" as something other than what they are is fucking crazy. Period.

[Anonymous No.7613522]

>>7613302
This is a /pol/itical thread in thinly veiled disguise, and I shouldn't be bumping it, but meh, agreed, for the most part.

My one caveat is doctors doing gender surgeries at the drop of the hat. A lot of these young foos are only having a gender identity crisis because they are doing too many drugs, and well, are young. They are getting life altering surgeries, that in addition to being dangerous in and of themselves, often create life long complications, and cannot be reversed.

I'm not big on regulation, but that shit needs to be regulated. For a doctor, who's taken a Hippocratic oath, anything life destroying like that should be only be done out of absolute necessity. You should be required to have some physical gender disorder, some sort of hermaphrodite condition. Not simply "feel" you should be the opposite gender. At least not for anything that can't be undone.

[Anonymous No.7613567]

>>7613506
>doesn't realize almost all sex hormones develop with the onset of puberty; that is literally the definition of puberty

Except that's not how this works. Whether you develop male or female genitalia is literally entirely determined by the levels of testosterone or estrogen while in the womb. In normal circumstances, this is determined by whether you have XX or XY chromosomes. Sometimes, however, shit goes awry and you develop male genitalia even though you have XX chromosomes or female genitalia even though you have XY chromosomes. This isn't debatable, we know this shit happens, since we can see "yup, that's a baby with a penis" and sequence the DNA and find no Y chromosomes.

e.g. here's the wikipedia page on someone with XY chromosomes but female genetaila: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

>Anyone who "identifies" as something other than what they are is fucking crazy. Period.
You seriously believe that this universe has an innate notion of "identity"? That the laws of physics create binary classifications of "this thing is a human male, and this thing is a human female"? Talk about hubris. Identity is a psychological phenomenon, not an ontological one. We've moved past Descartes and Plato. The only reason any "thing" is a "thing" is because our brains tell us so, so if someone's brain is telling them they're something else, why would it be any different? Yes, we can use things like "men have penises and women have vaginas" as these sort of shortcuts, the same way we say "the sun rises and sets every day", but if we start talking about people who are transgender or actual astronomy, we stop using those shortcuts and look at the actual situation. And in the situation that someone has a penis and identifies as female, well that's just a thing that happens, not "fucking crazy".