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/sci/ - Science & Math

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7521861 No.7521861 [Reply] [Original]

>Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.

>> No.7521864

Innit that beautiful?

>> No.7521865 [DELETED] 

What kind of mathematics replaced experiments exactly ?

>> No.7521869

>>7521865
quantum mechanics

>> No.7521874

>>7521865
In summing all of the naturals

>> No.7521877

Math saves time and resources,

>> No.7521895

>>7521861
Mathematics models reality, because it is a part of reality. Every single mathematical equation or oddity has a meaning in reality, try to prove me wrong. It's quite beautiful. We should use unintuitive mathematics to guide us where to look and improve our intuition. Math seems so ideal, the universe is imperfect in comparison. But even if mathematics just came form the minds of man, it still exists in a sense because the mind exists. If the mind did not exist then how could we exist? This is philosophy at it's best.

>> No.7521898

>>7521861
sure that's why we built a large hadron collider to NOT attempt to measure particles we mathematically made up.

>> No.7521903

>>7521895
>Every single mathematical equation or oddity has a meaning in reality, try to prove me wrong

prove u wrong? u prove it right, protip: you cant and u dont know

>> No.7521917

>>7521861
This is sort of like the people who complain that math got all ridiculous when people started putting letters into it.

>> No.7521919

>>7521898
CERN is a waste of money, they spend billions of dolars of taxpayers money every year and havent produced any meaningful results for years

>> No.7521921

>>7521895
>prove me wrong
the easter bunny exists

>> No.7521922

>>7521917
no it is not "sort of like it", its totally unrelated

>> No.7521924

>>7521919
Except that's patently false.

>> No.7521931

>>7521924
what have they figured out? that they cant figure out anything?

>> No.7522257

quality thread people here are too stupid to recognize

>> No.7522291

>>7521922
No, it's related in the sense that people who don't understand that physics is more than just experiments think math shouldn't be involved. Just like people who think math is just arithmetic think "letters" shouldn't be involved.

>> No.7522300

>>7521924
What new, useful thing came out of CERN apart from the Higgs circlejerk? Is there any real application to the discoveries made at CERN?

>> No.7522304

>>7522300
Not sure if this was CERN of LHC, but they recently discovered something called a pentaquark. Pretty sure this was LHC, but then again the Higgsjerk was at LHC as well so fuck you CERN4lyfe

>> No.7522305

>>7522300
Well, the Internet?

>> No.7522314

>>7522291
>physics is more than just experiments
no its not
>people who think math is just arithmetic think "letters" shouldn't be involved.
there are people who think sphagetti monster exists

>> No.7522318

>>7522305
False

>> No.7522319

>>7522318
True.

>> No.7522322

>>7522319
> The ARPANET in particular led to the development of protocols for internetworking, where multiple separate networks could be joined together into a network of networks

>> No.7522324

>>7521919
But they make really cool toys!

>> No.7522326

>>7522319
Semantically perhaps, but CERN only has a snippet for a contribution to the creation of the internet.

>> No.7522327

>>7522318
No, but they were responsible for the www.

>> No.7522328

>>7521861
in theory theres no difference between theory and practice. in practice there is

>> No.7522334
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7522334

>>7521861
>and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality

This is a bald-faced lie. Mathematics is an abstraction of reality. It is at its basis. But mathematics is much more powerful - it allows us to model reality without the need for the time or resources necessary to set up the same model as an experiment. Furthermore, it's much more powerful, because it allows us to quantify hypothetical scenarios that would be impossible in real life (for example, what if we had negative energy?)
This such play of abstraction provided much-needed insight. Imaginary number for example, were once a laughingstock— but are now a widely accepted and appreciated concept that is used quite extensively in electrical engineering as well as graphics simulations (particularly, for quaternion cameras and model skinning).

>> No.7522336

>>7522314
>>7522322
>>7522326
The thing is that none of you fucktards know jackshit about "physics" or "science". You read some Michio Kaku's or popsci shit, not Stone and Goldbart's and/or Riley's. Do you know how important math is for physics? How we were able to describe and predict things that we can't experiment, and build a 100 floor building to withstand an earthquake without having to fucking test it?
Shut the fuck up.

>> No.7522347

>>7522336
>>7522336
oh yeah and LHC helped you do that u fucking vain bitch? You know everything there is to know about physics dont u? becuase uve done what? U studies physics without going out of ur room for years and now u have to make up for that with importance of shitty and false subject that physics really is. nonetheless it approximates somehow our reality but it doesnt change the fact its not absolute and real. How do u feel about that u faggot? u dont know anything so stop acting like u discovered the laws of nature by knowing some physics and math. id smash ur silly face irl

>> No.7522357

>>7522334
>it allows us to quantify hypothetical scenarios that would be impossible in real life (for example, what if we had negative energy?)
implying dark energy isn't negative energy

>> No.7522363

>>7522334
see youre looking at it from the wrong side, we would invent mathematics if our understanding of the world would require it but otherwise we do it the other way around in the meantime creating thousands of builshit theories that will never be used anywhere in practice

>> No.7522367

>>7522347
>>7522347
lol Mr. Internet tough guy, I'm humble enough to know that I didn't discover anything. I wish I could though, but I'm no genius. I'm a normal student, working to solve problems by using the genius' method. I'm a scientist, and a practical man. I couldn't give a damn about your "reality" of all you pompous delusional philosopher. I don't care. I calculate what material to use, how thick the cable have to be, how fast should I move the elevator. All required fancy Greek letters' equations, which you "thinker" will never understand because you are too lazy to actually study them. You are vain. Not me.

>> No.7522371

>>7522367
>humble enough to know i didnt discover anything
oh cool, so u arent retarded

>> No.7522372

>>7522363
the more "bullshit theories" there are out there, the higher chance that one of them passes experiments thrown in it's way. These are what we call Laws of Physics.

>> No.7522373

>>7522371
too bad, you are.

>> No.7522379

>>7522373
give me a goodbye kiss?

>> No.7522381

>>7521861
Electrical

>> No.7522382

>>7522379
Only if you say sorry

>> No.7522391

>>7522363
>bullshit theories
It's you fucker who make the bullshit theories about flat Earth and consciousness and spiritual shit. We make things that work.
Do you think calculating the motion of planets is necessary? Or the motion of a double pendulum?

>> No.7522403

>>7522391
its not necessary but its practical, they are not out of the blue BULLSHIT theories that u create in ur autistic brain

>> No.7522409

>>7522403
what?

>> No.7522429

>>7521895
Mathematics models reality. It does not determine reality and, being entirely artificial, it is very possible to create useless mathematics.

Certain branches happen to describe certain phenomena well, but that is by design or accident, and not an intrinsic nature of truth within the mathematics.

>> No.7522502

>>7522336
What does that have to do with the LHC and CERN in general being a massive money sink?

>> No.7522510

You are fucking platonist If you believe that math models perfectly adjust to the reality. You can build the shit that you want with math but It is not necessary correspondence with reality.

>> No.7522533

>>7521865
Nikola Tesla didn't understand math and physics, and being butthurt over that, attacked the real scientists who did.

>> No.7522557

>>7522533
oh yeah and u do xD i forgot, u transcend math and physics anon

>> No.7522602

>>7522510
A very good approximation obtained easily is generally more useful than the exact answer found through rigorous experimentation

>> No.7522641

>>7522510
Yea but when it does we can draw conclusions and make assumptions about our physical reality.

>> No.7522643

>>7521895
How Do We Know Math Exists When We Don't Exist?

>> No.7522672

>>7521895
>Every single mathematical equation or oddity has a meaning in reality, try to prove me wrong. It's quite beautiful.
This is only true because some equations are only useful because they can be conceived by something. Other than that they probably aren't used anywhere else.

>> No.7522675

>>7521861
>>Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
He's kind of right about this. Mathematics is a black box heuristic at best and a brute force search at worst. It's very powerful but experiments are much more useful as they provide true data points from the universe itself.

>> No.7522842

>>7522643
How Can Math Be Real If Our Is aren't real

>> No.7522888

>>7522641
and when it doesnt, we can try to draw conclusions that dont exists and we turn crazy trying do the impossible, its probably what most of the people on this board are doing, thinking they're doing something useful

>> No.7522942

>>7521895
what is the "meaning in reality" of algebraic stacks

>> No.7523956

>>7521869
How so? Isn't there experimentation still?

>> No.7523959

>>7521877
I think what OP means to say is that they drift into the realm of things we do not have any means of experimenting on and keep going deeper and deeper into it to the point where it becomes somewhat useless.

>> No.7523964

I want to LOL at the physicists as much as anyone so I can justify being lazy and sitting on my ass, but surely when stuff gets complicated and they want a theory that works for particles and planets they should be given the chance to make assumptions and venture in to possibly wrong theories, or else the other extreme is to think nothing more than what the last experiment told them and naively do one experiment after another while putting no guesses in to what they could indicate further

>> No.7523981

>>7521877
*Pragmatic abstraction saves time and resources, whereas academic sophistry consumes them.

>> No.7524336

>>7522842
underrated post

>> No.7524500
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7524500

>>7522382

>> No.7525141

>>7521895
Maths is not reality. I have never seen a single mathematical model that predicted an observed phenomenon dead-on. It's always out by some figures.

>> No.7525148

>>7522300
their discoveries may not be useful yet but advancing our knowledge of science beyond the frontiers of technology allows technological process to speed up. one day we will have technologies that use quantum particles and we won't have to pussyfoot around not knowing how they work, we can get right onto the warp drive engine or some shit.

>> No.7525154

>>7525148
>one day
When I will be dead. CERN needs to work faster, this neckbeard wants to go to Alpha Centauri.

>> No.7525220

>>7521861

The point of figuring these equations is to create theories that explain the universe. When these theories are put to the test with experimental data it is possible to see if the theory is correct or not, so if it is correct then we can create more theories to test (and create useful inventions), while if it is wrong then the theory is wrong and must be modified to explain experimental data.

With tested theories a model of nature can be created, that predicts what will happen when things that are not yet tested are, and if the data matched the prediction, the model is correct.
Example: In 1928 Paul Dirac published a paper that predicted that electrons can have a positive charge, ie. a Positron. In 1932 Carl Anderson obtained experimental evidence for the positron, which had been predicted by Dirac several years earlier.

As I had said earlier that after sufficiently understanding things we can use those discoveries to create useful inventions which would not have been imagined if the science had not been done previously, such as the work of Faraday and his work on electromagnetism, which opened up a whole world of electrical devices, such as the computer you are using right now.

Therefore the mathematical equations devised are more then just equations, but explanations of the universe.

>> No.7525237

>>7521861
many scientists today consider this question to be ''metaphysical''. This is the result of the detrimental divide between what is now philosophy [which splits into analytic supposedly close to science and continental/phenomenology which is posited to be far form science] and what is now physics [which splits into theoretical physics and experimental physics]

meta-physics is etymologically whatever discussion which lies over the physics, aka the experimental physics [and a bit of what we call today theoretical physics]. But since the classical liberals took over a few centuries ago in order to secularize as many human activities as they could, they considered that since ''maths-physics explains the world through the experimental physics'' [yet, without any (scientific) motivation to come back to this realism through rationalism] then the theoretical physics is no longer metaphysics, that is to say a branch of philosophy, [philosophy which was considered then a tool for theology [theology = the discipline about God]]. So today, theoretical physics is no longer metaphysics, nor even philosophy, but science. This is why the rationalism-realism is the default stance wherein the students leaving the university have faith. These students hardly question this faith until late in their careers, and, for the few who question their stances, generally, when they reconsider, it goes either into scepticism, or into pathetic chatting on fields such as philosophy and theology that they do not master at all, especially when they go in the entertainment industry in doing conferences, selling books and documentaries...

the same applies to biology thanks to the trendy mechanism [not theory] of the evolution. Many do not reflect on what they say and happily claim that, for instance, we are on earth to spread our genes.

>> No.7525239

>>7521895
math is purely descriptive and impossible to get exactly right in any linear differentials.

its just math.

>>Math seems so ideal, the universe is imperfect in comparison.

found the welfaro

>> No.7525241
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7525241

>be one of the few enlightened people who understands that science and mathematics is only worthwhile insofar as it applies to every day life
>watch billions of dollars go to scientific and abstract mathematical ideas that will never be applicable to everyday life
>laugh at the normies around you who are learning stuff like the "Pythagorean" and "binomial" theorems and remembering stupid laws like Newtons (after all why should you care what some guy 400 years ago wrote down, haven't we actually learned new shit since then?)
>spend your time enjoying your youth while you still have it instead of learning these useless abstract things
>don't believe the propaganda your teachers throw at you about how learning this stuff is for your own good and it can have applications/be useful in the future
>graduate year 9
>drop out of school and become a tradie
>live out your life with the physical understanding of the world you inhabit as a 12 year old
>still make more money than a physics graduate

>> No.7525246

>>7525241
das it mane

theoretical physicists probably can't understand how a fucking car works.

i would never do scientific research unless it was for the purpose of improving industrial processes and making mad fucking $$$$$$$$$$.

>> No.7525255
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7525255

>>7525220
>theories that explain the universe.
no, theories do not explain anything. one theory is one break down of a phenomenon through the causation.

the theory is nothing but one saying ''such phenomenon happens because X, X happens because Y, Y because Z''

then the guy says ''I have no clue why Z happens, but that does not matter !''.

there is nothing else in a theory


Not a single scientist can motivate the stance to for causation. Not a single scientist can describe what a cause is.


>>7525220
>Therefore the mathematical equations devised are more then just equations, but explanations of the universe.


then why are there plenty of different mathematics and which mathematics explain the universe ? if there is only a few mathematics which explain the universe, then why are there mathematics which do not explain the universe, but since we are in the universe, how come we can come up with mathematics which donot explain the universe while the universe is explainable by other mathematics ?

>> No.7527080

>>7525241
>>7525246

Why do people strive to earn lots of money and then just sit back while their life goes on and become forgotten as they grow old and die?

You don't learn of the rich bankers of Newton's times but you learn of Newton and his work.

>> No.7527081

>>7521895
>prove me wrong
burden of proof, fucboi

>> No.7527084

>>7525255
The point is to explain Z and everything else that goes on to explain Z. That's why CERT is important, because the fundamental workings of the universe can be explored, and the most fundamental working of the universe can be understood.

Not all mathematics will be useful when its made, but that's not the point because it opens up to new ideas which may lead to ideas that are useful and applicable to actual things that are useful.

>> No.7527124

>>7522842
top fucking kek

>> No.7527136

>>7527080
You need money to do things anon. Ironic you mention Newton because his other job was Master of the Royal Mint through which he became very wealthy. I used to be just like you "hurr fuck earthly living, live for science" yeah that's the mindset of a naive 17 year old. When you're in the real world you need money money lots of money. Don't be autistic, concentrate on both

>> No.7527190

>>7527136

Money lasts as long as you live, but you legacy lives on forever.

>> No.7527203

>>7527190
You have more chance building a legacy with money than with time in the lab. Go on piss away your life in the lab on shit nobody cares about, I'll be opening hospital wings and funding SpaceX.

>> No.7527210

>>7527136
>When you're in the real world you need money money lots of money
So a few thousand dollars/month in the worst case?

>> No.7527215

>>7527080
>You don't learn of the rich bankers of Newton's times but you learn of Newton and his work.
Newton was a rich banker-type.
He beat up counterfeiters and dragged them into prison.

>> No.7527247

>>7527203
Those who solve the most fundamental questions of nature will be remembered thousands of years into the future where what they did is still relevant.

>> No.7527249

>>7527215
Newton did go crazy later in life, but what he's remembered for is his scientific discoveries.

>> No.7527251

shit-tier thread here guise. You've outdone yourselves. Congratulations. See you next time, kids

>> No.7527581

>>7527251
mathfag detected, how are you? solving problems of the universe i presume? ure so smart dude i wish i could do that too