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/sci/ - Science & Math

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7480897 No.7480897 [Reply] [Original]

Howcome tiny little atoms who have no brains or emotions or awareness or purpose create such complex entities ? If you think about it, every biological being is made from inanimate particles. And let's not make this a consciousness thread.

>> No.7480906

>>7480897
Why not? Is there a rule to say it's strange that they do?

>> No.7480910

>>7480897
Energy usage on a wide scale is a complicated thing.

>> No.7480914

>>7480910
Where's the rule to say it can't happen though??

>> No.7480933
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7480933

>>7480910
My question is, at which point these atoms start showing signs of behaviour and awareness, and how ? It's amazing to me that when these inanimate things come together they act like they're alive.
Does this simply prove that every biological entity out there is a result of complex chemical reactions and absolutely nothing more ?

>> No.7480937

>>7480933
>>7480897

Why focus on just "biological entities?" Why not any complicated thing?

>> No.7480958

>>7480897
They aren't aware of fuck all, they just react with each other because the laws of physics say so. It's purely mechanical

>> No.7480962

The same way that cells in Conway's GoL create complex structures, or bits in a computer memory create complex simulations

>> No.7481059

>>7480897
>based Edward Witten recognizes the incredible mystery of consciousness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6b3DjOnv3I

>> No.7481079

>>7480933
atoms have no 'signs of behaviour and awareness'
behaviour and awareness lie within their states of connections

>> No.7481082

op there is no room for any complex structures to support thought or emotions. a atom is really small . even a quantum argument wouldnt be very strong for a possible interconnected net work ... unless you try to make a quark argument in which case you need to take the topic to /x/ and put forward the notion the universe is alive

>> No.7481083

>>7480933
> at which point these atoms start showing signs of behaviour and awareness, and how
Apparently, behaviour is a property of higher levels of organisation. Atoms do not behave - organisms do.

>> No.7481114

>>7480897
How come we, the product of your atoms, can create a nearly limitless number of worlds and applications virtually, with nothing but 1's and 0's?

It's literally the same thing. Fundamental forces, fractals, everywhere you look the pattern ultimately remains the same and points to the same outcome: at its basest form, everything basically starts from 1 and zero. The existence, or absence, of potential.

It's only through near infinite repetition that almost by accident, patterns start to emerge, which give birth to more patterns, ultimately leading to more complex structures on a much, much larger scale.

Ultimately, it's likely not at all that far off the mark to presume that all of the known universe and beyond, are simply the results of repeating patterns of "nothing" and "something" in an infinitely large scale, each landmark on that ever increasing scale giving birth to new emergent properties starting from the fundamental forces, and ever beyond.

>> No.7481131

>>7480897
have you ever considered were not much complex? To God, we may might as well be pots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK_EJSly75M

>> No.7481134
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7481134

>>7481114
>near infinite

>> No.7481137

>>7480897
>Howcome

The whole is more than the sum of its parts.

>> No.7481480

>>7481137
Or rather, the whole sees the whole as more than the sum of its parts, but this is an illusion created by the whole which is in fact the sum of its parts.

>> No.7481485

>>7480897
because the universe did not create life. life created the universe.

>> No.7481497

>>7481485
No, the universe created life, and life created the universe through perception.

>> No.7481701

Holographic universe

>> No.7481752

>>7481485
wtf is this hippity dippity shit.

Life is the reduction of entropy, the universe, despite itself, created life.

The reduction of entropy in information systems is the codification of patterns that repeat and are essentionally the information themselves.

The existence of the patterns suggest they can replicate, and the fact that animals do various pattern creation and entropy reduction is really only fascinating in that a microscopic phenomonon has grown to a macroscopic one.

>> No.7481804

>>7480897
There is whole Artificial Life field that models these issues. You can read Langton's alife book for detailed descriptions and models http://bookzz.org/book/2290881/8c73fa

>> No.7481814

>>7480897
Any reaction between things goes to a system with a net lower free energy. It's like a gargantuan Slinky going down a set of stairs. Whatever comes about is just a result of the Slinky going down another step.

>> No.7481835

>>7480897
I would say that there isn't an answer. We can explain only a small fraction of what exists, and questions such as this need a more deep knowledge to be answered properly. Now we can only speculate, and eventually we will reach an answer

>> No.7481837

>>7481752
you don't know anything.

>> No.7481840

>>7481497
kinda. what else would you call the first thought that turned zero into 1-1?

>> No.7481853

>>7481840
The ultimate question

>> No.7481898

>>7481837
you don't know nothing

>> No.7482283

>>7480897
Why do these particles also produce the energy that complex entities, made of these particles, ultimately use.

Example: A star pumping out electromagnetic radiation due to the fusion of hydrogen (simplest element). This radiation reaches complex structures made out of other elements, and they use it to rebuild and maintain their structures.

>> No.7482318

Conway's Game of Life is a really good example. Each cell only knows about its immediate neighbors, and follows a very simple set of fundamental rules, yet it is possible to create machines that compute. Now, our physical universe isn't exactly "simple", but everything in it follows the same rules (whether we know them entirely or not) and that includes atoms, which come together according to those rules, and "somehow" (I say that to avoid flamewars) they eventually came into patterns that were life and eventually conscious brains.

>> No.7482331

>>7481131
The human brain is regularly toted as the most complex known system in the universe. So given that no. We are complex enough.

>>7480906
The theory of evolution, I guess. It states that in order for complex life to have evolved it would have taken, in the first instance, an unknown quantity and an extraordinary leap of probability even to create the most rudimentary lifeform complete with mitochondrial DNA. Not too mention than the random mutations needed to unlock all of the information then needed to account for all of the other lifeforms on the planet. That in itself is strange. The fact that it has happened is of course proof that it can happen but that is not up for debate.

It always amazes me how people talk as if they have any real knowledge of evolution, considering that it is such an incomplete theory. I believe that if somebody tries to explain the origins of life through evolution alone that that person really doesn't understand what they are talking about. They don't understand what the biologists are saying, but think that those same biologists must know what they are talking about, and so everyone goes around claiming that this 'thing' they don't understand is the correct thing. And then they proceed to bash everyone else who doesn't fully agree with their half-baked theory as being stupid. It really is quite funny to watch. But most importantly what I think all of this stems from is a lack of imagination on the part of the researcher and a lack of initiative/curiousity to really think for themselves and ask the hard questions. When you do this and don't lie to yourself about what you don't know you will hopefully realise that the world is a potentially a far more interesting and wondrous place than you and people of your ilk give it credit for.

>> No.7482359

>>7480897
>Howcome tiny little atoms who have no brains or emotions or awareness or purpose create such complex entities ?
Muh Quantum Physics or something. The functions that describe their behavior become more and more complex as atoms begin to interact with each other.