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/sci/ - Science & Math

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7437327 No.7437327 [Reply] [Original]

Let's invent the best language possible, one that has different words for each shade of meaning instead of putting multiple vague meanings on a single word. And one that would pack as much information as possible in each word so it's sentences would be extremely short and efficient. I think we're gonna need some anons with linguistic knowledge.

>> No.7437339

I like this idea

>> No.7437343

We should take inspiration from Ithkuil, that was a language basically created for this purpose.

>> No.7437351

The thread image came from this article http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/06/whats_the_most_efficient_language.html

Might be worth a read.

>> No.7437359

>>7437343
Ithkuil is impossible to speak though. What would be better is a good compromise between usability and denseness.

>> No.7437374

>>7437359
It's not physically impossible, you can still pronounce the language and understand the words of Ithkuil, it's just very mentally demanding. Chinese seems like an impossible language for some because of it's complexity, but an entire nation can speak it so that's that.

>> No.7437384

The message with the greatest account of information is silence.

Redundancy is necessary to convey meaning.

More information does not (necessarily) equate to higher efficiency in terms of communication.

>> No.7437434

As a linguist I opine that if this is a language people are actually going to be speaking it'll naturally grow into various ambiguities and inefficiencies because that's how our brains do stuff. Ultra-specific but rarely used parts of the language will simplify and merge with others. Commonly used things will get mushed and abbreviated. Super specific ornaments used to disambiguate shades of meaning and context and implication will melt mostly away or distort because in real life actual context takes care of that work. All language semi-arbitrarily shifts so this project would in real life go nowhere beyond being a toy for you to enjoy, which is fine.

>> No.7437444

Soooo newspeak? Were about to take a trip to 1984

>> No.7437446

could you please read the meme books on information theory first before you make this post?
redundancy serves as "data protection" in the case of damaged data during communication.

>> No.7437876

>>7437434
This guy knows what's up.

English is already damn near the most efficient data compression system in existence; why fix what is not broken?

>> No.7437880

>>7437876
What about Loglan?

>> No.7437885

German is the way better language for science and engineering.

Somehow the language the language is so much better in pinpointing facts. Maybe the way you can create terms in the most logical way.

>> No.7437887

>>7437351
>MORE FROM THIS AUTHOR
>Trophy Hunting Is Not a Problem
>Corn Flakes Were Created to Prevent Masturbation

>> No.7437888

>>7437880
What about it?

>> No.7437891

>>7437887
Kellogg really did invent corn flakes to prevent masturbation. Wikipedia say:
>In addition, Kellogg thought that diet played a huge role in masturbation and that a bland diet would decrease excitability and prevent masturbation. Thus, Kellogg invented Corn Flakes breakfast cereal in 1878. He hoped that feeding children this plain cereal every morning would help to combat the urges of "self-abuse".

>> No.7437894

>>7437327

|3T5 1N\/3NT T#3 \/\/045T |AN6UA63 P05518|3.

>> No.7437895

All current human language inherently inhibits human perception, so a language which is not invented by humans should be used. The language of the birds. Or we could build a machine that could calculate an efficient invented language.

>> No.7437910

>>7437880
Does it allow for modulation of meaning by subtle variation in delivery? If not then it's probably way less efficient as a spoken language.
That English is ambiguous in the written form is in direct proportion to its expressive power when used in person.

>> No.7437913

>>7437887
>Can Farting Propel You To Space ?
>>7437359
>Ithkuil

Just read the first page of this guy's site. It's exactly the kind of awesome autism I expect from 4chan on the good days. It's way above Uillilia.

>> No.7437915

>>7437880
It's pretty much a language for computers or proof-writing only.

Good tool but no all purpose language.

>> No.7437917

>>7437891
what a dumb fuck

>> No.7437921

What if you use a second language for pure informative things like laws - that would even make sense for international stuff.

>> No.7437963

>>7437327
And every word would be spelled phonetically

>> No.7438121

>>7437327
>Let's invent the best language possible, one that has different words for each shade of meaning instead of putting multiple vague meanings on a single word

Greek

>> No.7438131

>>7438121
Objectively wrong

>> No.7438143

Icelandic
Mig langar að ríða mömmu þinni svo mikið

>> No.7438146

What about Latin

amare deus vult patris et sancti filii fillia panem spiritus

>> No.7438148

>>7437327
>And one that would pack as much information as possible in each word so it's sentences would be extremely short and efficient

>one that has different words for each shade of meaning instead of putting multiple vague meanings on a single word

idiot

>> No.7438150

>>7438146
What does that mean?

>> No.7438155
File: 51 KB, 315x335, 1390913694.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7438155

>>7438143
Hvad med nej?

>> No.7438164

>>7437327

Those are not the world's seven most spoken languages.

>> No.7438168

>>7437327
Also ensure that all the words have a sharp and unique sound to them so that in the battle field a shout can be decoded in long distances and noise environments.

>> No.7438180

>>7437327
This is pointless, invented languages always fail because everyone is already familiar and happy with the language they already use. I can speak, read and write English without even thinking, why the fuck am I going to live my life using some made up language that I barely grasp?

>> No.7438192

>>7437885
German here.
When it comes to mathematics, our language is the most retarded one.
>we don't have a word for calculus. The closest translation is "Infinitsimalrechnung"
>instead of "cardinality" we use "mightiness"
>instead of "factorial" we use "faculty"
>Instead of saying "x theorem" we say "sentence of x"
>Instead of things like "Euler's number" we say "Euler-ly number" or "Euler-like number" which doesn't even make sense.
>long, unnecessary and ugly names for some theorems. "Extreme value theorem" = "sentence of minimum and maximum"
>no hairy ball theorem. It's just called hedgehog theorem.

>> No.7438197

>>7438192
They are using different English words?

>> No.7438201

>>7438197
No, I just translated them back because most won't understand the German words.

>> No.7438206

>>7438201
Obviously it doesn't make sense that way.

>> No.7438210

>>7438206
It doesn't make sense either way. "Eulersche Zahl" makes just as much sense in German as "Euler-like number" in English.

>> No.7438213

>>7438210
Eulersche Zahl is the same shit as Euler's number

>> No.7438216

>>7437327
>Let's invent the best language possible, one that has different words for each shade of meaning instead of putting multiple vague meanings on a single word
Chinese does this and it's a cluster fuck.
Context modifying a word is better than trying to memorize a trillion different words.

>> No.7438222

>>7438213
Only when talking about the meaning of the word. I was talking about the way it's written. Why not use "Eulers Zahl"?

>> No.7438239

>>7438222
because Adjektivierung von Namen. Simple and logical.

's indicates possession, which doesn't even make sense in that context.

>> No.7438240

>>7438180
Because you are selfish and myopic of the potential it has in the intergenerational long run.

>> No.7438256

>>7438239
>Adjektivierung von Namen
So "Euler-like number" would be a correct translation of "Eulersche Zahl"? How does this make more sense than possession?
e is HIS number. Not a number that is like Euler himself.

>> No.7438263

>>7438192
stay mad Leibniz

>> No.7438275

>>7438256
>So "Euler-like number" would be a correct translation of "Eulersche Zahl"?

No, the English language lacks that element so a correct translation would be Euler's number.

And yes, it's logical because it indicates a relationship between Euler and number but no prosession like the 's would do.

>> No.7438276

>>7438275
>prosession

possession

>> No.7438285

>>7437891
>mfw I think cornflakes are delicious
Did they change the recipe and start adding sugar or something?

Cornflakes are a lot more exciting than toast or a lot of the other cereals we have here (not in the US).

>> No.7438287

>>7437895

All language serves as a conceptual barrier between our minds and the noumenal but without that conceptual filter we can't fucking talk about anything so we're better off using language.

>> No.7438288

>>french
>>high information rate
>>their word for eighty is 4x20

>> No.7438291

>>7437327
This idea is doubleplusgood.

>> No.7438296

>>7437434
How did english end up with such a top info rating then?

>> No.7438301

>>7438291
But seriously, refs Newspeak.

>> No.7438305

>>7437327
>different words for each shade of meaning
nope, not gonna happen. are you retarded? there would literally be millions of words, and nobody would know them all.

>> No.7438377

that would be something like binary and thats a terrible idea because humans are not computers, without redundancy it would be impossible to have associations, merge words or invent new ones (in a human-friendly way)

>> No.7438649
File: 95 KB, 853x480, 1419860911173-8.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7438649

>>7438296
>How did english end up with such a top info rating then?
english = bastard child of german language+french vocabulary

>> No.7438698

>>7437327
I can't see there being an objective way of measuring language efficiency; it depends on the type of information being conveyed. Certain languages are better suited for certain environments and cultural contexts. For example, a language spoken by an Amazonian tribe would probably be more efficient at describing wildlife local to their area of the Amazon and anything that is culturally relevant to them than, say, English; and English would likely be very efficient at describing things related to international trade, being the primary language used in international trade.

>> No.7438702

Let's talk for a second about the individual meanings of mind, brain, awareness, perception, cognition, and consciousness

>> No.7438703

>>7438377
meh. "i have a pet dog" and "I have a pet yorkshire terrier" becomes hardly inhuman. Would you like to take a ride in my 2003 VW Golf GTI?

>> No.7438705
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7438705

>>7437327
>lets create a perfect set of axioms anon

Good luck with that.

>> No.7438715

>>7438703
No, I won't take a ride in your VW golf. We both know I am casually fond of you, do not confuse this shade with love

>> No.7438732

Hungarian
My beer= söröm
Your beer= söröd
His beer=söre
Our beer= sörünk
Into your beer= sörödbe
Into my beer= sörömbe

>> No.7438824

>>7437351
I have been studying Japanese off and on for twenty years, and I swear to god that the Japanese communicate half by telepathy.

They seriously just leave information out, all over the place, and count on each other to be very good at guessing what information got left out.

They don't speak longer, they just convey about a third less information than English speakers.

>> No.7438838

>>7438732
>Our beer= södrünk

>> No.7438856

>>7438824
Plenty of languages are like this. Turkish for example is grammatically extremely analogous. Some languages leave more to context than others, though in the case of Japanese specifically it is an interesting mix of a language that grammatically allows a lot to be omitted, plus a culture that values indirectness, which leads to an extreme amount of communication being relegated to the unspoken. Annoyingly.

>> No.7438883

>>7438856
It must really suck for people on the autism spectrum in Japan. Maybe that's what's up with all the hikkis?

>> No.7439436

Korean is the best, designed mathematically alphabetically

>> No.7439447
File: 972 KB, 378x212, FKxuU8V.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7439447

Nippons still have it the best because they speak fast and decisively

>> No.7439455

>>7438146
That sentence made a surprising amount of sense with all the English words in it.

>> No.7440117

>>7438285
Yup (well frosted furry flakes at any rate)

>> No.7440122

>>7438838
keg

>> No.7440127

>>7439447
Don't cry over spilled milt Carlos.

>> No.7440138

>>7438824

>Gaijin Telepathy - Our co-workers and supervisors don't tell us anything. Literally. One day, I came into work at the ghetto school and found a straw hat and pair of garden gloves on my desk. .....Ok. I was kind of waiting for an explanation, but one never came. So I was sitting in the teacher's room, and eventually I noticed it had gotten really quiet. I looked up to find I was the only one in there. Odd. I went outside to find the whole school, teachers and students, picking weeds in the soccer and baseball fields. Ah, so that's what the garden hat and gloves were for! However, no one actually told me this.

>I can only assume that they expected me to somehow divine the meaning of the hat and gloves with my Gaijin Telepathy. This kind of thing happens all the time, and sometimes with really important stuff ("Hey, why didn't you come to my class today? What? No one told you?"). I kind of think that Japanese watched the movie X-Men/X2, and thought "Wow! Captain Picard is a telepath! All Gaijin must be telepaths!" Maybe they also expect me to control the weather too, which would explain why they're always saying "samui ne?" in the winter ("It's cold, huh?") and "atsui ne?" in the summer ("it's hot, huh?"). I guess I'm supposed to fly up, tilt my head, and say something like "Gods of the weather skies! Expel this cold front and give us good weather for golfing!" I will draw the line however if they ask me to use my adamantium claws to slice their sushi.

http://classic.dryang.org/japanese/teacher16.html

>> No.7440234

>>7440122
The puns are overflowing.

>> No.7440276

What will we name this language?

>> No.7440285

>>7437351

>Interestingly, the languages that conveyed the least amount of information per syllable, like Spanish, Japanese, and French, tended to be spoken at a faster rate. This allowed these languages (apart from Japanese) to deliver a similar amount of information compared to more meaning-dense languages like Mandarin and English.

Answer to OP is simple: English spoken thousands of times more quickly. Everyone can go home now.

>> No.7440296

That's a terrible idea and it's never gonna work.

Because the second people start speaking the language they won't bother learning every word in it, and even if they do they won't use every word in normal life, so the words will start having a more vague meaning. The fact that you pack as much info in one word as possible is even worse cause every word would be really specific.

Not to mention poetry would be impossible in that kind of language, and litterature would be really bland.

And the guy with the best education out there would be speaking the same language as the poorest of people, which would be kinda weird.

>> No.7440301

>>7437327
>eurocentrism.png

>> No.7440355

>>7438143
Svenska
Bäst

>> No.7440359

>>7438649
Germanic doesn't mean German, mate. Old English is very different from German, the closest to it would be old/modern Frisian.

>> No.7440401

>>7440138
>they're always saying "samui ne?" in the winter ("It's cold, huh?") and "atsui ne?" in the summer ("it's hot, huh?").
Heh, this guy would have a hard time in Australia. If it's hot people say "how hot is it today?" as a rhetorical question. It's just a statement meaning, boy it's hot.

>> No.7440453

Linguistfag here. I'll put it this way. Conlangs or constructed languages basically always fail. Most of them are fucking hard but if you want a really easy language, I would say look at Swedish or Norwegian and simplify it more.
Jag är - I am
Du är - You are
Han är - He is
Hon är - She is

So have I is, you is, he is, she is and invent 1:1 translations for each word otherwise you'll get confused.

But yeah. Svenska är bäst. ;)

>> No.7440460

>>7440453
Swedish is gay as fuck though.

>> No.7440484

>>7437327
Why would they not evaluate Arabic? Its one of the most common languages..I wanna know what the rate is

>> No.7440494

>>7437339
>amo ideam
latin ftw

>> No.7440499

Writing is done in the IPA

>All particles are vowel-vowel(-vowel)
>All root nouns are consonant-vowel-consonant
>All root verbs are vowel-consonant-vowel, conjugated by adding or changing the final vowel.
>All root adjectives/adverbs are vowel-consonant.
>all root *fixes are consonant-vowel, and can be added to the front or back of any word

>to verbify a noun, you add a vowel to the end
>to nounify a verb, you add a consonant to the end.

>> No.7440597

>>7438192
>Sanic's theorem
Fastest theorem in the universe

>> No.7440604

If we had greater union of machine and mind, it might be interesting to have punch cards be the new language. Rows and columns would each reflect emotions, intent, and represent various types of words. They would act as modifiers to each other in that each row would have a number of possible results equal to the number of columns and vice versa.

>> No.7440605

>>7440453
Swedish is riddled with weird böjelser linguistfag. As a honest to köttbullar native speaker of the svenska språket I can not endorse this language.

>> No.7441028

but is a language with a lot of words but fast talking speed really effective?
our current languages dont require a lot of words and the position in a sentence aswell as the way the word is spoken and the context make it possible to deliver detailed information with few words

>> No.7441052

>>7437910
It has no syntactic ambiguity, so you can say exactly what you're trying to say.

>> No.7441074

English is really powerful because it can add made up words and words from other languages easily. I don't see the point of changing it. Computers already use their own mathematical language so why not become a computer OP?

>> No.7441075

>>7437434
What's to stop us enforcing the language somehow, like via the threat of violence, or having AI's always speak it correctly?

>> No.7441079

I think Wittgenstein would like to have a word with some of you.

>> No.7441095

>>7440499
We get very few words with this language, right? If we use the English alphabet we only get 525 verbs and 2205 nouns for example, seems like a low number.

>> No.7441102

>>7437327
Doesn't Ithkuil do this already?