MDMA Neurotoxic

[Anonymous No.7243084]

Ravers BTFO!!!

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02791072.2014.873690

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24114426

Ecstasy deemed, "Most Certainly" neurotoxic and causing of brain damage!

New research (2014-2015) shows that MDMA is neurotoxic in humans and induces permanent reductions in cognitive abilities that didn't get better after initial exposures to large amounts of MDMA over a long period of time.

This chronic daily use of the popular raver's drug, leads to permanent brain damage, and is thus ill-suited for any kind of medical application, how could you knowingly give medicine to a war vet knowing that it would kill his brain? lmao, this new ideology of all the fun drugs, weed, mdma, amphetamine, even cocaine, having a dual-purpose in medicine, is completely unfounded and dangerous.

Support traditional conservative beliefs and ensure these dangerous drugs are banned from the scientific community.

[Anonymous No.7243087]

>>7243084
>This chronic daily use
wait, what? people use E daily?
what in the fuck am i reading?

[Anonymous No.7243089]

What about single use similar to shrooms to cause some sort of disruption in the normal function of the brain, which is causing problems.

[Anonymous No.7243103]

>>7243084
>Daily use of methamphetamines causes brain damage

Who knew?! What shocking research findings, I bet they will make waves in these fields.

Pfff, are you retarded OP? This research is nonsense, that author has been the bane of anyone trying to use recreational drugs for psychotherapy research, he will twist the statistics just to demonize the chemical by using the habits of its worst users and propping them up as a scarecrow to say that everyone will become like them with any kind of use.

Him and others like is the very reason medical science is held back in this area and we still give outdated treatments like antipsychotics and prozac to people.

I'm sure some others can vouch for this guy as well, he is a baaaaaad man.

Bottom line: MDMA will cause no brain damage if used every once in a while. If you use it every day and in high doses? Of course it will fuck you up, imo this is like the difference between Acetaminophen (tylenol) relieving pain at regular dose, and then causing liver damage at severe dose. nobody uses the severe dose lol

[Anonymous No.7243108]

>>7243103
>>Bottom line: MDMA will cause no brain damage if used every once in a while.
just like weed


it transpires that you are butthurt, but to establish facts, be them expected or not, it the job for science.

[Anonymous No.7243114]

>>7243108

You don't understand the words fact or science

[Anonymous No.7243124]

>>7243084

I'm sure the large group on ravers on /sci/ are extremely butthurt now OP. As for the rest of us who advocate less restriction of controlled usage it's pretty much agreed on that this is the case, so I really dont see your point

[Anonymous No.7243125]

>>7243084
Old news to anyone with even a passing interest.

Really does suck for the early adopters who didn't know better though.
Guess we know why people are scared of change and only do what everyone else does.

On the upside though, think of all the great electronic music it has inspired :).

[Anonymous No.7243130]

>>7243124
Yeah look it's a bit of a shame that the only accessible person who might be able to give reliable information on how to minimize harm when using drugs (doctors) can fuck your shit up if you broach the subject with them in most countries.

[Anonymous No.7243142]

>>7243089
your sentence is causing problems

[Anonymous No.7243146]

>>7243142

Your a sentance

[Anonymous No.7243149]

>>7243084
Wait, so if I took some Ecstasy pills at various times in my life, each instance at least 30 days apart at the closest, I have brain damage now?

...Is there a way to heal brain damage? I don't feel any stupider really... shit i'm worried now lol, if only I had taken some kind of test beforehand to compare now, oh well.

[Anonymous No.7243168]

>>7243149

You're fine

[Anonymous No.7243210]

>>7243149
Your body is stronger than that, anon

[Anonymous No.7243221]

>large amounts of MDMA over a long period of time.
>This chronic daily use

Well no shit.

[Anonymous No.7243223]

Isn't alcohol also neurotoxic? You are not supposed to take MDMA every day or even every week.

[Anonymous No.7243252]

>>7243084
>New research (2014-2015) shows that MDMA is neurotoxic

No.
It shows that multi-drug abuse including street-'ecstasy'. Gives a cognitive decline.

You want to prove MDMA is a neurotoxin? Do a toxicologic study with pure MDMA in animals, culture and follow up on psychiatric MDMA trials in humans.

[Anonymous No.7243279]

>>7243084
>lmao, this new ideology of all the fun drugs, weed, mdma, amphetamine, even cocaine, having a dual-purpose in medicine, is completely unfounded and dangerous.
Nice bait.

>>7243149
Those studies focused on heavy users, unless you were a hardcore raver you're probably fine

>>7243223
>Isn't alcohol also neurotoxic?
Yeah, the 2nd study OP posted used CAN (cannabis, alcohol, nicotine) users as well. They were worse off than the non-drug-users, but the MDMA users were even worse.

>>7243252
>follow up on psychiatric MDMA trials in humans
This has enormous ethical concerns, which is why studies are done on people who obtain and use the drugs themselves
Naturally they're going to have worse effects than clinical study participants, but that's why we have things called "control groups"

[Anonymous No.7243311]

>>7243279
>enormous ethical concerns
Not more than any other drug trial really.

[Anonymous No.7243334]

>>7243311
Current studies strongly suggest MDMA has significant harmful effects and that those effects are irreversible.

Not the sort of shit anyone looks at and thinks "that sounds promising, let's give it to 500 people now!"

[Anonymous No.7243542]

>>7243084
>>7243084
>large amounts of MDMA over a long period of time.
In other words: ABUSE far more than the typical user ever will do. Abusus non tollit usum.

[Anonymous No.7243557]

>>7243252
>You want to prove MDMA is a neurotoxin? Do a toxicologic study with pure MDMA in animals, culture and follow up on psychiatric MDMA trials in humans.
Already done and already doing it. No such harm is found in a controlled setting with a moderate dose. Period. Full stop.
http://www.maps.org/research/mdma

I've ready hundreds of pages of peer reviewed preclinical and clinical data on MDMA over the last decade. Only in horrific large scale abuse (maybe 3-5% of users) does any of this sort of damage show up.

[Anonymous No.7243558]

>>7243084
Is this even new, let alone relevant? I thought it was well established brain damage with mdma corresponded to heavy usage.

[Anonymous No.7243564]

>>7243334
>Current studies
Bullshit. The most current studies by HONEST researchers are found here:
http://www.maps.org/research/mdma

[Anonymous No.7243570]

>>7243558
>heavy usage.
Very very very heavy usage. FAR more than what the typical (even recreational) user ever will do.

[Anonymous No.7243572]

Anyone who takes large doses of MDMA every day are brain damaged to begin with. This study proves nothing that hasn't been known by people for decades already.

[Anonymous No.7243585]

You guys are defensive because you know it's true.

Even if you're not some retarded junkie, long term use has neurotoxic effects. One or two beans won't do it, but if you're rolling 5 or 6 times a year, every 2 months which is pretty moderate, after 4-5 years the long term effects will start to build, you will start to have memory loss and brain damage.

The large-scale study doesn't show it and statistical significance is a bitch but if you review the research study to study, there are numerous small ones with limited participants that found pronounced neurological decline in people who had rolled like 20-50 times in the last 5 years.

Just dose instead.

[Anonymous No.7243676]

>>7243585
>long term use has neurotoxic effects
Can't say that without proper studies with purified compound and controlled dosage.

You could say that alcohol have neurotoxic effects too based on some shallow observation of gait defects in long term alcoholics.
Turns out that it's vitamin B depletion that causes nerve damage and supplementation blocks this.

Without controlled sourcing of the drug you can't rule out some contaminant from production(think MPTP= neurotoxin contaminant accidentally produced when trying to make MPPP=opioid.).

Without dose control and control of multi-drug intake you can't rule out interactions or overdoses leading to excitatoxic effects.

[Anonymous No.7243691]

>>7243585
>there are numerous small ones with limited participants that found pronounced neurological decline in people who had rolled like 20-50 times in the last 5 years.

source your claim pls

[Anonymous No.7243698]

>>7243585
>but if you're rolling 5 or 6 times a year, every 2 months which is pretty moderate, after 4-5 years the long term effects will start to build, you will start to have memory loss and brain damage.
This is absolute bullshit. If you're taking 3 or 4 tabs every weekend for years, maybe. But no way at that usage rate.

[Anonymous No.7243701]

>>7243676
Right but none of that matters because in practice, when you are doing molly, you're not doing 99.9999% pure chemically refined medicinal MDMA, you're eating a bean that was probably made by some O-chem students and contains molly, chalk, binders and possibly some other shit, or snorting crushed up crystals that are more likely methylone than actual MDMA.

So whether it's the pure MDMA, specifically, itself, or the effects of MDMA as it is commonly used that causes the neurotoxicity, you're still opening yourself up to the dangers if you choose to use it.

Fuck actually trying to use MDMA therapeutically, that's fucking retarded, it's a party drug not medicine, if people need medicine give them fucking shrooms and be done with it.

[Anonymous No.7243711]

>>7243701
>none of that matters because in practice
It matters in practice because
>1: viability as medical therapy
>2: public health problems that may be alleviated by identifying the cause of cognitive decline.

>Fuck actually trying to use MDMA therapeutically
Fuck opiates in medicine too rite! It's just a junkie drug? RITE?
Or fuck you for being a brainwashed DEA drone.

[Anonymous No.7243716]

>>7243701
>when you are doing molly, you're not doing 99.9999% pure chemically refined medicinal MDMA

you realise that if it were approved for therapeutic use, or just legalised in general, pharmaceutical companies would manufacture it in plants and thus it WOULD be 99% pure MDMA ?

also, realise that while the majority of ravers, i.e. plebs are getting ''molly'', most users on 4chan or /sci/ are probably getting it from the darknet (which will be leagues more pure) and/or chemically verifying/purifying it themselves

[Anonymous No.7243720]

>>7243701
>you're not doing 99.9999% pure chemically refined medicinal MDMA
This is NOT a drug problem. This is a prohibition problem.

[Anonymous No.7243740]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the well known heart damaging effects of MDMA and similar molecules. It puts users at a high risk for valvular heart disease.

[Anonymous No.7243741]

>>7243711
Uh yeah I'm a brainwashed DEA drone who rolls several times a year recreationally lol.

Using MDMA therapeutically is just fucking retarded. It's a compromise to avoid upsetting retards who can't handle the idea of psychedelics. The medicinal benefit isn't because of the stimming or the euphoria, it's the psychedelic effect produced by the drug. Psilocybin or LSD are both superior for such therapeutic treatment and do not have the side effect of making you roll tits when you take them.

And yes opiates were way overprescribed for a very long time and are still often overused in medicine.

[Anonymous No.7243752]

>>7243741
>Using MDMA therapeutically is just fucking retarded.
INCORRECT. This was one of its original uses. And it has shown to be about 80% effective in CURING treatment resistant PTSD.

[Anonymous No.7243755]

>>7243741
>rolls several times a year recreationally
That would explain why your posts appear brain damaged.

>opiates were way overprescribed for a very long time and are still often overused in medicine.
A cheap and efficient drug, safe when properly dosed and good reversal drugs availible? In my opinion it's far too controlled and underused and I'm a healthcare worker.

[Anonymous No.7243761]

>>7243741
MDMA is far more empathogenic than LSD or Psilocybin, also being more ''coherent'' and able to communicate on MDMA rather than tryptamines is an advantage for the psychiatrist monitoring / guiding you

[Anonymous No.7243765]

>>7243761
Exactly. And the last thing you want to give someone with severe PTSD is LSD. That can be a bit traumatic even for healthy young people without major issues. I know, I've had both.

[Anonymous No.7243769]

>>7243752
It's a compromise to avoid upsetting retards who can't handle the idea of psychedelics. The medicinal benefit isn't because of the stimming or the euphoria, it's the psychedelic effect produced by the drug. Psilocybin or LSD are both superior for such therapeutic treatment and do not have the side effect of making you roll tits when you take them.

That is why it's fucking retarded. Not because it doesn't work. Because actual psychedelics work much better, without as intense unrelated side effects, and the idea that we should keep psychedelics completely banned as the drug version of satan incarnate while considering alternate uses for less intense things like MDMA is just, no.

>>7243755
As a healthcare worker from a sheltered privileged background you clearly spend a lot of time dealing with patients who really do need medicine, and have never seen the devastating effects prescription drug abuse can have. Giving it to people who are in pain isn't the problem, it's giving it to people who abuse/sell it and you can't allow one to happen unrestricted without allowing the other.

[Anonymous No.7243776]

>>7243769
>The medicinal benefit isn't because of the stimming or the euphoria, it's the psychedelic effect produced by the drug.
In PART, but not entirely. MDMA is an entactogen with a psychedelic effect. LSD and 4-ho-DMT are full on psychedelics. They do not have the same empathic factor and they are much more overwhelming for someone who has no experience with psychedelics. MDMA also releases hormones that directly effect bonding. Most other drugs will not do this, except other entactogens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathogen-entactogen

This really is a different and fairly new class of drugs.

[Anonymous No.7243782]

>>7243769
>never seen the devastating effects prescription drug abuse can have

I've seen some shit, in the absence of prescription drugs they'd find something else to abuse. Abuse is a symptom of dysfunctional lives not something that every person wants to do.

>you can't allow one to happen unrestricted without allowing the other.

Opiates are cheap as fuck, sell them OTC along with everything else.

[Anonymous No.7243790]

>>7243769
>without as intense unrelated side effects
Absolutely not true. LSD has a little less euphoria, but a much more earth shattering experience. This is not how you help someone suffering from mental problems, especially ones like PTSD that trigger cascades of endorphins at the drop of a hat that feel to the person like life and death. And I know this from more than a decade worth of study as well as having personally experienced both of them.

[Anonymous No.7243806]

>>7243761
>>7243776
I understand the empathy effect but that's only one small part of it. It's not what's curing the problems, it's just making the cure more palatable for people who would otherwise have a hard time.

The source of the problem is the medical setting. Nobody is going to be comfortable enough to have the true learning experience that will cure their ills on psychedelics sitting in a sterile room talking to a doctor who is emotionally and spiritually uninvolved and working objectively for his paycheck. Doing it in a therapeutic setting helps but if you are selecting the person to administer the dose based on his or her ability to pass psychiatry exams rather than actual people skills it's still going to be harsh and upsetting.

Well, I guess I've convinced myself that I'm wrong and you guys are right. The real cure to mental illness is to take psychedelics and listen to some great music with some people who care about you. Not to sit in a clinic with a doctor listening to the sound of your own voice and the air conditioning. But the medical establishment is not capable of dealing with the former, so the latter's the best we can do, and if we're going with the latter, MDMA is gentler than a full blown acid trip.

>>7243782
>Opiates are cheap as fuck, sell them OTC
Yeah you've never met a junkie in your life. You've probably never even spoken to one outside of directly in your job. Your opinion is worthless and legal decisions will be made by people who can understand the impact they will have.

[Anonymous No.7243812]

>>7243806
>legal decisions will be made by people who can understand the impact they will have.
Just like during the prohibition and current drug laws?
Go suck some more DEA cock.

[Anonymous No.7243813]

>>7243790
I'm sorry to tell you this and your ego can't handle the fact that it's true but you have never done acid, friend.

I highly encourage you to try it again. Because when you do, things will be different...you'll see. Write me off now, whatever, just try it someday.

[Anonymous No.7243821]

>>7243812
>thinking junkies can understand the impact their drug use has on their lives
I don't know why I'm still responding, you've completely stopped even trying to be grounded in reality.

[Anonymous No.7243825]

>>7243806
>Nobody is going to be comfortable enough to have the true learning experience that will cure their ills on psychedelics sitting in a sterile room talking to a doctor who is emotionally and spiritually uninvolved and working objectively for his paycheck.
To say this you obviously have ZERO understanding of the crew at MAPS that are the ones actually holding the clinical trials all over the world.

[Anonymous No.7243829]

>>7243813
>have never done acid
In the 90s I was paying $1 per dose getting it only 2 steps removed from the missile silo lab. You don't know SHIT, son.

[Anonymous No.7243835]

>>7243821
Junkies will be junkies with or without prescription drugs.

Abuse tolerant public policy lowers abuse complications for junkies and may even lower the total amount of drug users.
Legalizing everything for personal use greatly improved the situation in Portugal.

Meanwhile Sweden that share your retarded mindset have a 50% higher death rate among addicts as compared to more liberal countries with needle exchange programs and so on.

How about you base your opinion on facts the next time? Or perhaps you've fried your teenage brain from your edgy multi-drug abuse.

[Anonymous No.7243859]

>>7243835
How about I don't base my opinion on facts, and just use the fact that you are retarded enough to think that selling legal oxycodone OTC at every pharmacy is not going to get any more people addicted than having it banned to completely disregard every opinion you have on the matter, lol.

Portugal did not legalize drugs. They decriminalized drugs. There is a difference. I absolutely 100% support decriminalization of all drugs. That does not mean legalization and it does not mean allowing people unrestricted access to addictive substances.

[Anonymous No.7243861]

>>7243825
To say this you obviously haven't done psychedelics.

>>7243829
Eh. Some people can't do it. If you can, you've either forgotten and buried the memories deep or you're doing a piss poor job showing it.

[Anonymous No.7243879]

>>7243861
>been proven wrong multiple times
>''lol u dont even do drugs, i do drugs so i kno everything!!!11''
your ego is through the roof mate

everyone here trying to argue with you might as well just stop responding to you, you're clearly convinced that you know everything and everything you know is right despite everyone having proven your ramblings wrong multiple times

[Anonymous No.7243900]

We've known this for years, though. The N-methyl causes oxidative stress at dopaminergic sites, just like methamphetamine.

[Anonymous No.7243912]

I took a dose when I was 14. Triple stack red Americas. Borderline-retarded clubslut girlfriend at the time talked me into it.

How fucked am I?

[Anonymous No.7243913]

>>7243900
Why is methamphetamine neurotoxic but amphetamines in therapeutic doses aren't?

Is it literally the methyl group?

[Anonymous No.7243917]

>>7243879
I assure you, friend, my ego is entirely a nonissue. It is yours that has grown through the roof.

I haven't provided objective evidence but don't claim anyone's disproven a thing I've said, the things I am discussing are not the kind of things that produce objective evidence one way or the other...this is why I hate discussing psychedelics on /sci/.

[Anonymous No.7243921]

>>7243912
please start doing drugs again, dont turn into another one of the joyless autistic loser nerds that inhabit this board

[Anonymous No.7243922]

>>7243921
I do do drugs now, but nowadays I'm more into nootropics and adderall.

[Anonymous No.7243929]

>>7243087
people huff canned air dusters daily, of course there are molly addicts

[Anonymous No.7243935]

>>7243149
No, you should have read the summary. It was a study of long-term daily users.

>>7243252
>It shows that multi-drug abuse including street-'ecstasy'. Gives a cognitive decline.
Very good point. It's not as though these subjects have been given pure MDMA by doctors, they've been popping street-quality ecstasy tablets. The results are likely more damning as a result.

>>7243913
As far as I'm aware. However, the methyledioxy group on MDMA at the 3,4 position is suspect because the methylene bridge is readily removed in the drug's metabolism. After removing that group, you get metabolites that closely resemble dopamine.

[Anonymous No.7243944]

>>7243913
they're both neurotoxic for multiple reasons, but meth is simply MORE neurotoxic.

the methyl group is the only difference between meth and amph, so presumably the answer to your question is: yes

the exact mechanisms I'm not sure of

[Anonymous No.7243945]

>>7243701
>contains molly, chalk, binders and possibly some other shit
A lot more than that.

>Fuck actually trying to use MDMA therapeutically, that's fucking retarded
It already proved successful prior to its scheduling. You're on the wrong side of the literature.

[Anonymous No.7243946]

>>7243084
This isn't new. I heard that everytime you do x that you put an eraser sized hole in your brain back in the day like a decade ago

[Anonymous No.7243950]

>>7243740
Clearly it's not well known if no one has mentioned it. I've never heard of this. Provide links.

[Anonymous No.7243951]

>>7243084
Obvious troll post.
But anyways...
3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) -assisted psychotherapy has promising qualities in regards to aiding those with PTSD, and even individuals suffering from various forms of terminal illnesses. MDMA is unlike other forms of medication for mental illnesses. During a MDMA-assisted psychotherapy session, a patient is only given the drug a few times over a long period of time, whereas with other medications individuals are given their medication daily for years on end. And the kicker is that is extremely safe to take and incredibly NON-toxic. I'm not typically one to be a "bandwagoner", but this drug could potentially help millions of people.

[Anonymous No.7243954]

>>7243084
this is bait, OP is an american fag (note that american rave culture is full of drug freaks and it's not as strong as Europe and the rest of the world)
Instead of corroborating evidence in studies of U.S. there should be shown studies around the world (why?), I don't know... I don't trust American studies (that's just me, and maybe a lot of people may feel this way)

[Anonymous No.7243961]

>>7243859
Various opiates are already sold OTC in sensible countries. Paracetamol ratio requirements are by far the most dangerous aspect to them.

>>7243912
Read the abstract.

[Anonymous No.7243970]

>>7243961
>Various opiates are already sold OTC in sensible countries.

where?

[Anonymous No.7243987]

>>7243970
Britain. Also, credit to the British Medical Association for resisting the UN requirement of removing diamorphine from use in hospitals.

[Anonymous No.7243992]

>"BTFO" thread with other blatant trolling
>author not banned
It's a shame /sci/ has no moderation.

[Anonymous No.7243993]

what if brain damage improved your happiness and quality of life?

[Anonymous No.7244003]

>>7243084
There have been several studies that showed that the neurotoxic effect of MDMA is at least partially attributable to the effects of its metabolites on various neurons. I'm not well-versed enough in biochemistry to tell you exactly which metabolites and which neurons, but the gist of it is that these metabolites induce oxidative stress on neuronal synapses, which leads to degradation of those neurons.

Some have suggested taking certain antioxidants along with MDMA to suppress these effects, but honestly I think we are better off looking for alternatives that work in the same way but don't elicit a neurotoxic response. I don't think there have been many comprehensive SARs done on these compounds, so there is still a lot of research that can be done.

[Anonymous No.7244243]

>>7243912
>How fucked am I?
You're not. At all.

[Anonymous No.7244246]

>>7243913
>Why is methamphetamine neurotoxic but amphetamines in therapeutic doses aren't?
Methamphetamine is also not neurotoxic at therapeutic doses either, but the dose is a lot smaller because its a lot more powerful.

[Anonymous No.7244247]

>>7243929
>molly addicts
Tolerance builds very fast. This is not a typical stimulant. Very few people ever take enough to cause harm because the magic wears off if you take it too often.

[Anonymous No.7244251]

>>7243946
>I heard that everytime you do x that you put an eraser sized hole in your brain back in the day like a decade ago
And that is absolute bullshit cooked up by NIDA and the DEA by lying about fMRI scans. Changes in blood flow do NOT amount to "holes in the brain". The exact same results could be obtained in scans where people are having sex or playing their favorite video game. Different regions will light up or go dark depending on which areas are demanding more or less blood flow.

[Anonymous No.7244257]

>>7243954
>I don't trust American studies
When it comes to ANYTHING funded by NIDA, the DEA or any organization of the US government who has ties in ANY way to these organizations, you are very wise to ignore them and everything they say. They lie constantly and only fund studies specifically looking for harm. If you don't or can't find harm they will revoke your funding as well as block your studies.

[Anonymous No.7244263]

>>7243961
>Paracetamol ratio requirements are by far the most dangerous aspect to them.
This is a fact. Its the NSAIDs that destroy livers and kill people. And they know this. See, prohibition is a cult religion. It operates on blind faith, shuns scientific evidence, and is a cult that wishes to inflict pain and suffering on those who would partake. They do that very much on purpose.

[Anonymous No.7244266]

>>7243992
>It's a shame /sci/ has no moderation.
I would like to apply for that job. Pay would be nice though.

[Anonymous No.7244279]

>>7243946
That's outrageous nonsense.

[Anonymous No.7244380]

>>7243946
>an eraser sized hole in your brain
OR. Or are we talking about Dr. Freud and his exploits?

[Anonymous No.7244423]

>>7243084
I've only used ecstasy a couple times. Do I have anything to worry about?

[Anonymous No.7244756]

>>7244423
No!

[Anonymous No.7244781]

people dont use E daily
>b-b-but muh neurotoxicity
only with large or chronic use which we already knew