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/sci/ - Science & Math


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7228204 No.7228204 [Reply] [Original]

>math vs CS

>> No.7228209

Dude was trying to minimize the increase in entropy, you douche.

>> No.7228214

>>7228209
hehe

>> No.7228217

At my school, an easy way for math students to boost their GPAs is to take math courses that are crosslisted as CS electives. Any course popular with CS majors will be taught in an extremely simple, dumbed down manner and the disgustingly abysmal median exam scores ensure easy As for anyone who knows enough math to know what a proof by contradiction is.

>> No.7228220

>>7228204
I actually do this because I feel too awkward about pronouncing names wrong that I'd rather waste time.

>> No.7228228

>>7228217
My Linear Algebra class is like 90% CS majors.
Today, we went over the dot product and unit vectors.
There is one class period left before finals.
I got up and left.

>> No.7228230

>>7228204
I just dump homework at the front of the room while I erase the board and field questions.
Too much P-chem to teach to waste time on calling for pickup.

>> No.7228242

>>7228228
Seriously? That's section two of the first goddam chapter.
What'd you spend the rest of the semester on?

>> No.7228243

Dear CS student,
I want my latte with extra sugar.
300k starting
Sincerely, math student

>> No.7228265

>>7228243
Dear math student,
Please help I am choking on cocks
Sincerely, engineering student

>> No.7228271
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7228271

Legit question: I'm an undergrad CS major but I have an interest in math. Went straight out the gate from high school and grabbed the first place that would accept my shitty grades, and am making 4.0 GPA without considerable effort. I wouldn't be surprised if half the faces in my classes won't be around next year.

What is the issue with CS? Should I focus more on mathematics and maybe switch majors while I still can? Was I an idiot for choosing CS?

btw first post on this board, /mu/ here.

>> No.7228286

>>7228271
>What is the issue with CS? Should I focus more on mathematics and maybe switch majors while I still can? Was I an idiot for choosing CS?

Yes and yes. Nobody is beyond redemption brother. I too switched from CS to math after realizing what a pile of shit it was. When I left highschool I thought CS is the way to go, now I know better.

>> No.7228299

>>7228228
This has to be fake. The Graham Schmidt process, diagonalization of linear transformations, the introduction of Jordan canonical forms of matrices, rank/nullity, and an introduction to hilbert spaces (by generalizing the concept of an orthonormal basis) are standard material for an undergraduate course at any state uni. How did that happen? Horrible instructor? Or,. was the instructor too nice and too afraid to push students?

>> No.7228303

>>7228286
why would CS be shit

>> No.7228313

>>7228286
Why would an employer consider a math major more worthwhile than other majors, is it because the material is more difficult or something?

Again I'm serious about this, I'm not friends with any math majors so I have no idea about these things outside of profs shilling their fields, news articles, etc.

>> No.7228316

>>7228299
I took intro to linear algebra (the standard 200 level linear algebra course for math majors) and a decently-ranked (top 25 math in the US) state school last year. We got up to GS and diagonalization of matrices. The entire idea of linear transformations was skipped entirely, probably because CS majors and engineers are forced to take the class and would have bitched about them to the department. Exactly zero mentions of linear transformations through the entire semester. Class didn't get to Jordan canonical forms and definitely did not get introduced to Hilbert spaces.

>> No.7228322

>>7228303
Because it teaches you almost nothing. All the courses (even those at Stanford) can be done in 1/5 of the time by a mathematician. Should a CS major however attempt a (non-entry level) math course, he would stand no chance of completing it.

>> No.7228332

>>7228313
>Why would an employer consider a math major more worthwhile than other majors, is it because the material is more difficult or something?

Yes. It's much more difficult. Here in Germany tech companies much rather employ mathematicians than CS majors for difficult programming jobs.

>> No.7228338

>>7228313
Double major here. Math is not any more difficult than CS. Anyone who tells you otherwise has either not done both or is full of shit. Or sucks at math, I guess.

>> No.7228345

>>7228338
>Math is not any more difficult than CS.

top kek. Your math programme must be pretty shitty then.

>> No.7228346

>>7228316
>probably because CS majors and engineers are forced to take the class and would have bitched about them to the department
Nice meme, but you do all that in an Linear Algebra course in Engineering .

>> No.7228347

>>7228322
are you implying that it's better for someone to graduate as a mathematician and then learn how to program etc. than to graduate in cs?

>> No.7228351

>>7228322
Ha ha ha... imagine a math major trying to take an introductory distributed systems or OS course, or even something supposedly mathematical like numerical analysis. Better break out the lube.

>> No.7228364
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7228364

>>7228243
>falling for the meme
kek'd. can't wait to see the look on your face when you graduate with a math degree and start looking for jobs... you'll be depressed until you commit seppuku.

>> No.7228367

The problem with math is that most of it is written in the most autistic way possible.

Seriously the quality of math in college is embarrasing. My only thought of reason is that they do it on purpose to reduce the amount of people completing them.

Most hard parts is decrypting what the fuck the autist who wrote the theory ( not the proofs, but explanations ) is trying to say. Looking back I could have learned it all with a 75 % time efficiency if the explanations next to the proofs were written better.

>> No.7228385

>>7228347
You can teach a monkey to program man, it isn't too difficult. This is /mu/ here again btw. I learned C++ by self study in high school and Java in first year CS.

The only tripping block is not being motivated to do your own projects. You need to enjoy or at least have persistence to grind out some of your own work, like a simple 2d platformer or, since there's a lot of talk about lin alg here, a program that reduces an arbitrary matrix to reduced row echelon form. It sometimes is harder than it looks to transfer a procedure or idea to code.

>> No.7228391

>>7228204
Hey computer science student,

While it is true that a separate search of the dataset for each student is above linear time, it is important to note two things:
1. If the tests are sorted by name, the search may be logorithmic, reducing the complexity to <span class="math">O(N logN)[/spoiler]
2. As the dataset decreases by one item each iteration, the amount of work done in the search decreases linearly with time

Next, regarding calling each student to the front, while this is indeed a linear algorithm, it requires <span class="math">N[/spoiler] units of walking that is, on average, roughly half the length of the classroom, and involves <span class="math">N[/spoiler] units of standing up. The traversal of the classroom requires a unit of walking that is far lower (elementary, even) and no units of standing up.

Thus, the additional overhead involved in your linear algorithm eclipses the actual work done on the practical dataset compared to my algorithm. For a theoretical analogy, consider that Sleep Sort is a linear algorithm yet Merge and Quick sort are more widely used.

Sincerely,
A computer science TA

>> No.7228425

>>7228391
what if the teacher asked each student of the line while seated to say his name, he'd arrange his test to the top of the line, then the teacher would get up and go reversely through the classroom giving the tests.
I believe this is the best way to do it.

>> No.7228430

>>7228391
I am reasonably sure that the printed list in the TA's hand does not get magically shorter as assignments are handed out. Also, your two points are logically the same thing.

>> No.7228437

>>7228391
Sleep sort is not O(n). It depends on the value of the largest input, not the number of inputs. Fundamentally different things. Any sort of scaling is going to require O(nlogn) time, and then sleep sort applies a constant and a multipler on top of that.

I mean, presumably you know that, but for those who don't, it's not a real argument.

>> No.7228465

>>7228316
I'm surprised by skipping of linear transformations, though jordan canonical forms and hilbert spaces usually aren't in intro linear algebra classes.

CS, engineers, and math majors all take the same linear algebra course at my uni that I TAed and I can promise you math majors were not the highest scoring. Usually it was CS>math=engineers.

Does your school have a shit CS program?

>> No.7228466

Speaking of math vs whatever
>be engineer
>not particular instead in it doing it for muh jawbs
>do mediocre on math partial because busy with other classes that have gay shit like group projects and labs
>start study math on my own enjoy it more than engineering

If I do good on a math gre is it possible to get into decent math grad school? Or will I have to real math classes(analysis,abstract/modern algebra,topology,etc) to show that I'd be a decent candidate.

>> No.7228472

>>7228430
If he's talking about a pile of scripts (which is how I imagined it), it would decrease like he says

>> No.7228474

>>7228466
Talking with a friend who was looking at grad schools for applied math, even in applied math they want to see two semesters of analysis as an absolute minimum.
If you do the courses and do well on the GRE, show research promise, have good letters, etc . it might be ok to be an engineering major.

>> No.7228540

>>7228204
Math in undergrad and selfstudy CS

>> No.7228549

>>7228364
>large pepperoni pizza
>feed family of four

fucking poorfags

>> No.7228558

>>7228351
> imagine a math major trying to take numerical analysis
I... whut.


http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/course/na/
https://www0.maths.ox.ac.uk/courses/course/26271
https://www.dur.ac.uk/faculty.handbook/module_description/?module_code=MATH2051


I googled the first three universities I could think of. And their analysis courses. All of them are for math majors. Numerical analysis is a mathematician's game.

>> No.7228571

>>7228313
Don't listen to him. Most people here shitting on CS are autistic freshman "math" majors who are in Calc 2 and Linear Algebra. Major in CS and take some supplementary math courses like combinatorics, mathematical statistics, probability, etc. You will actually be employable unlike pure math majors.

>> No.7228582
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7228582

>>7228571
>You will actually be employable unlike pure math majors.

>> No.7228592

>>7228391
1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n = n(n+1)/2 = O(n^2)

You have failed the first week of first year CS.

>> No.7228603
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7228603

>>7228271
>Was I an idiot for choosing CS?

Yes.

>> No.7228622

>>7228217
>Any course popular with CS majors will be taught in an extremely simple, dumbed down manner and the disgustingly abysmal median exam scores ensure easy As for anyone who knows enough math to know what a proof by contradiction is

So much this.

>> No.7228627
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7228627

>>7228465

Too obviously, 3/10

>> No.7228634
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7228634

ITT: people who think CS in SE

>> No.7228638

So you guys are using the parameter "depth of mathematical themes studied" to avaluate a course like computer science... Sounds legit.
I see math as a really shitty grad btw. You're barely taught any physics...

>> No.7228655

>>7228592
The point is that while <span class="math">\frac{n(n+1}}{2}[/spoiler] is indeed quadratic in complexity, in practical implementation it requires significantly less work than <span class="math">n + n + n + ... n = n^2[/spoiler].

Complexity class is an important thing to consider when choosing an appropriate algorithm for a given problem, but it is not the only thing.

>> No.7228664

>>7228571
>Most people here shitting on CS are autistic freshman "math" majors

Notice how CS majors always recycle the same old ad hominem attacks ("shit school", "freshman", "confused code monkeys") instead of intelligently arguing that their courses are worthwhile with details.

>>7228338
>>7228345

The thing with math programs is that they are very flexible with respect to electives so you can take pathetic courses aimed at CS majors and future HS teaches (see >>7228217) and graduate without learning much of anything. A lot of schools have even started offering 2 version of core subjects - a regular one with watered down material moving at a snail's pace filled with CS majors and others minoring/doubling in math, and a honor version with rigorous fast paced coursework filled with physics and math majors aiming for graduate school - to get them out of the way of students that care about learning.

>> No.7228665
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7228665

>>7228571
>tfw your school is known for having an awesome combinatorics department
>have to wait till 2nd-3rd year to start taking these courses

>> No.7228669
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7228669

>>7228634
ITT: people who think CS is math

>> No.7228685

>>7228669
its not... its a "theoretical and practical approach to computing"

I don't know why anyone would compare algorithms/OS to real analysis, they are completely different fields.

>> No.7228692

>>7228669
> introduction books
> not trivial

>> No.7228708

>>7228351
Confirmed for never having even looked at your universities math program, or even the basic syllabi of math courses beyond triple integrals. lol P.S., I went to a uni with a top CS dept, and holy fuck were the courses easy to get 100+%'s in. Keep in mind that it was mathematicians that built the infrastructure you study pleb.

>> No.7228715

>>7228708
In the same way that "philosophers" built the infrastructure for math!

>> No.7228724
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7228724

>>7228715

Aristotle was wrong about everything

>> No.7228738

>>7228708
what top CS school has classes where you can get 100+%? you smell of bullshit. Or are you talking of classes like comp-org and data structures

>> No.7228762

>>7228738
Just because you got bad grades doesn't mean your courses were hard.

>> No.7228773

>>7228664
Nice to find you again. You pop up in every thread on this topic. You clearly never taken higher level courses in cs as your impression of CS is Intro discrete mathematics. Recursion theory is a difficult area of mathematics/CS thst isnt trivial. I bet you know jack shit about RCA_0 yet you are fast to shit all over computability. You still can't talk to me sbout k-theory yet but self proclaim yourself as a mathematician. Kek dumb ass.

>> No.7228779

>>7228773
>I can name graduate math topics
>See, undergrad cs doesn't suck

Tone down the autism mate

>> No.7228780

>>7228762
Okay say I made an A+ in functional analysis snd differential manifolds at my school. If you made less than me (which you would btw) then I can apply the same logic and say you're a dumb ass (vacuously true). You have no ability to gauge the difficulty of CS snd for the record yes you do in fact attend a shitty school.

>> No.7228801

>>7228773
>You clearly never taken higher level courses in cs as your impression of CS is Intro discrete mathematics.
>Recursion theory is a difficult area of mathematics/CS thst isnt trivial

It also usually isn't taught in undergrad CS. I can't fathom the reason why you constantly refer to graduate topics and disparage references to undergraduate courses when what we are discussing is undergraduate CS and not the CS field. Of course graduate topics are very interesting and have nice connections to other areas of mathematics but this is irrelevant to the issue at hand that cs undergraduate courses require a fraction of the effort other undergraduate stem courses do.

>> No.7228821
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7228821

Why are math autists and engicucks always so analpained about CS majors?

Jealous that we are the ones doing real work? While engicucks do grunt work in SolidWorks, and Math autists are starving on the streets, we are getting shit done in the tech world.

I pity you guys sometimes. You know our Algorithms are not only the future, but far harder than any of the shit that you do.

Triple Integrals is weak shit.

>> No.7228851

>>7228821
I don't think that's the actual arguement
They're trying to compare CS graduation to math graduation using their own parameters of how a graduation should be (aka the parameters of someone highly interested in math)
CS is not only using math, but also being able to program following several instructions and goals. This requires a lot of practice and specific studying. If somebody wants to be productive inside the CS area, one can't "waste" that much time learning very specific and complex math areas.
The thing, however, is that CS is also an area where you can study all of that depending on what your goals are. So, really, this thread is pretty stupid. If you want to learn math, learn it all you want, but you can't blame CS graduates of not learning what you're learning because the goals are clearly different.

>> No.7228865

>>7228851

The whole point of 4chan is to take very specific statements and extend them into general absurdity.

>> No.7228880

>>7228851
>If somebody wants to be productive inside the CS area, one can't "waste" that much time learning very specific and complex math areas.

This is wrong. Theoretical CS is a subset of pure mathematics. The area I study has nothing to do with the practical side of CS & is the same shit I studied in undergraduate math under a different department.

>>7228801
I'm glad you defined what you are discussing because we aren't discussing the same thing. You are talking about undergrad CS, I'm talking about the field of CS. There is a clear difference.

>> No.7228885

>>7228430
if it's a pile of tests, it does get shorter

if it's a list of names with grades, it gets shorter if the TA crosses out the grades that have been communicated

>> No.7228889

>>7228801
In my university, algorithm analysis (including recursion, also dynamic programming, greedy algorithms, and a few others) is taught in undergrad.

>> No.7228896

>>7228851
>They're trying to compare CS graduation to math graduation using their own parameters of how a graduation should be (aka the parameters of someone highly interested in math)
This. Every argument a mathfag ever makes against CS reduces to "It's not pure math". Well of course it's not, dumbasses, it's CS. A lot of arguments are made that CS isn't actually taught, and in shit schools that's true, they just call their SE degrees CS, but not every university is Niggerfuck Community College.

>> No.7228900

>>7228889
>recursion
>Recursion Theory

They aren't the same.

>> No.7228913

>>7228900
Le Fibonacci

>> No.7228917

>>7228889
Recursion is different than recursion theory (i.e. computability), I am >>7228880 & >>7228773. He (>>7228801) is correct that 'real' recursion theory is not taught at the undergraduate level. Only the ideas of turing machines, decidability, semi-decidable and rice's theorem are presented at a surface level to introduce the idea of formal models of computation. The first order logic shit and other logic shit that accompanies it (shit Godel/Turing/Church/Kleene were doing) is usually avoided in those courses.

>> No.7228952

>>7228917
Recommend books?

>> No.7228959

First, I want to say despite disagreeing with bro >>7228664 dude in various threads, now I understand his arguments I don't have anything to say as I didn't do CS undergrad. I just focused in math and then switched over to CS doing the same shit.

>>7228952
Sure, for computability theory look into

Computability & Logic -- Boolos, 3rd edition.
Computability theory -- Weber

Those two are good introductory books and will give you the machinery you need to continue your studies.

>> No.7228965

>>7228204
Rekt

>> No.7228967

>>7228959
Thanks, I've been meaning to check out Boolos.
Any for complexity side of things? I've done undergrad level(sipser) and I've been trying to work my way through two books on circuit and kolmogorov complexity.

>> No.7228984

>>7228967
I don't know of any 'good' books on circuit but the classic is the 'blue book', i.e. "The Complexity of Boolean Functions" -Wegener (RIP).

For Computational Complexity then I'd recommend "Computational Complexity"-Papadimitriou although not too sure how much you'll like it.

For kolmogorov complexity you have "An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications"-Ming Li, Paul M.B. Vitányi but that is well beyond the level of an undergrad text.

These books may be more difficult for you than Sipser, although I really do like the first 8-9 chapters of Sipser due to its simplicity and presentation.

>> No.7229021

>>7228984
Thanks, just in time for summer.

>> No.7229025

>>7229021
No problem, good luck