Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience? Do they suffer when they are in pain? Do they have feelings like guilt?

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Anonymous Sat Dec 20 07:43:57 2014 No.6960660 [Reply] [Original]

Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience? Do they suffer when they are in pain? Do they have feelings like guilt?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 07:58:01 2014 No.6960673 No, only humans do.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 08:09:42 2014 No.6960680 Animals need feelings, while humans don't. We have science and logic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 08:20:58 2014 No.6960693 From my observations i came to the conclusion that my cat has conscience, and I'm sure it has feelings.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 08:30:18 2014 No.6960703 >>6960660 >Do they suffer when they are in pain? This is a ridiculous sentence. Pain, by definition, is a form of suffering. Herp derp

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 09:13:57 2014 No.6960742 >>6960693 Your cat is manipulating you so you'll keep feeding it and scratch it at the base of its tail.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 12:37:56 2014 No.6961045

>>6960703
I know that, by definition, is a form of suffering. But the difference lies behind of IF you proccess that suffering or don't. Do animals think "OH THIS HURTS OH SHIT" or they have just instinctive responses?

No one know about a paper that confirms or denies that animals do have conscience?

That is one of the biggest doubts that i have.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 13:44:28 2014 No.6961137 >>6961045 This is just me, but I think yes. Animals feel pain and act to stop the feeling of pain. It's like an internal conditioning mechanism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 13:46:20 2014 No.6961139 >>6960660 >Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience? Yes. >Do they suffer when they are in pain? Yes. >Do they have feelings like guilt? Yes. Now it's my turn: what about looking on google before making threads?

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 13:59:52 2014 No.6961157

Anyone who has a dog knows that animals can feel guilt.

I think that's a pretty basic part of mammal emotions, to be aware of hurting others and feel bad about it. It's necessary for animals that live in such close contact, play-fight, breastfeed, and such.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 14:17:59 2014 No.6961181

>>6961139
I did research about the subject. You saying "yes" don't prove you right, i'm here to know about papers, video sources or anything that PROVES that animals has conscience, as simples as it may bem.

I know that animals can SEEM to be feeling guilt, but they evolve to live with humans and we are unarmed when we see a cute animal acting like he's guilt. That doesn't proves that he UNDERSTANDS that have done something that's wrong. The sense of right and wrong is not a simple one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 14:47:36 2014 No.6961230 Some birds, some monkeys, and probably dolphins do.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 14:48:11 2014 No.6961233 >>6961181 Which holds true for a lot of humans, honestly. Hey, what about observed instances of animal altruism? Like dolphins rescuing humans and stuff? Been documented quite a bit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 14:54:06 2014 No.6961244 >>6961230 even dogs, horses, pigs and many others

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 16:31:39 2014 No.6961481 >>6960742 >being a bitch to one's own cat That poor sap

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 18:30:10 2014 No.6961689

I can't believe you faggots. I'm working in a pharma lab. Believe me, animals don't feel emotions. Pain? Maybe. I think it's more of a reaction to a destructive stimulus.

But they don't think: Hey I'm being tortured here, what a shitty and pointless life, please kill me.

They think nothing at all. They don't even have a sense of self.

An animal could never suffer as much as a human with cancer.

I'm sick and tired of people acting as if we are the devil himself, when we are developing medicine that helps people.

Sure, now you are protesting, but once your child gets a deadly disease you'll torture every animal on this planet, so be glad I'm doing it for you.

I needed to get this off my chest

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 18:39:47 2014 No.6961712 >>6961689 Rats get a bad rap.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:07:02 2014 No.6961750

>>6961689
I mean. Even humans when they get fucked up, they achieve a weaker "sense of self". I was thinking that MAYBE animals like Dolphins had an very primitive sense of self.

I did some research and never found out an straight answer. Even when i was younger and asked my biology teacher: "Does animals feel bad when they are in pain?". She couldn't give me a staright answer.

So, what our conclusion here? Are there animals that has a sense of self or not? Gorillas and chimpanzees are "smart", they can answer simples things but they can never QUESTION things. Do they have an primitive sense of self or something?

Let's be a bit smart and elaborate on this subject, please.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:24:43 2014 No.6961779 Anything with a spine does 100%

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:26:37 2014 No.6961785 >>6961779 You mean like a cactus?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:30:13 2014 No.6961791 >>6960660 yes but they have inferior conciousnesses

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:41:10 2014 No.6961808
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>>6961181
>I did research about the subject.

Then how come you don't know batshit about brain evolution? Psychologistfag I guess. Anyway, every animal that has a functioning limbic system have emotions - even guilt, they can't rationalize it like we do tho because of the abscence of the neocortex.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:47:25 2014 No.6961817

>>6961750
You want to look into that one gorilla that showed abstract learning.
I can't be bothered to dig it up, but basically it knew some 100 words and started to combine them at one point to get new words.

It even adopted a cat from a scientist and treated it like a child. One day the cat got run over or something and the gorilla asked the scientists where the cat was. They told her that she's dead.

The gorilla then went silent and didn't eat much for days, clearly showing signs of grief.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:49:42 2014 No.6961824 >>6961817 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcnH_TOqi3I

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:53:39 2014 No.6961834 The answer is, it doesn't matter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 19:55:29 2014 No.6961836 >>6961834 Give reasons, please? >>6961824 I don't get what you are trying to say. I do hope animals have a shock response as humans though.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 20:15:14 2014 No.6961862

>>6961808
You say like it's obvious. It's not. You say like we already understand how conscience works, but no one figured it out yet. I wanted to establish here a coherent discussion about this subject and see different opinions.

Don't say like you have it all figured out without proof. We know some things about how the brain works, but it's nothing comparable to how greater it is.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 21:24:37 2014 No.6961922
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>>6961862

Lel, don't say it isn't obvious when you look at it from an evolutionary perspective - in fact, your question is what's retarded in the first place. It depends on which animal you are curious about really. You need atleast a reptilian level brain to even feel pain but I don't really get what you mean by "suffer when they are in pain"? Do you mean "do they feel the sensation of pain?" then yes, they do if they have the corresponding receptors. To feel guilt is a different thing, it's a complex emotion. If you are looking for animals that can feel guilt you need to look around in the group of mammals, social ones and with advanced enough brains that can record memories of behaviours that produced suitable and unsuitable experiences. However these judgements are made unconsciously.

Anonymous Sat Dec 20 23:13:18 2014 No.6962030

Do humans (besides me) have a conscience? Do they suffer when they are in pain? Do they have feelings like guilt?

You can't "prove" it, but the answer to both questions is obviously YES (Unless you're a psychopath and go around killing people and animals because you think you're the only one who can suffer or feel anything)

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 20 23:23:53 2014 No.6962049 If they didn't feel pain how would they avoid danger? Moron. Our brain is a product of evolution, brains are convergent evolution and they have em too.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 00:52:46 2014 No.6962211
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>>6960660
Animals are bound to their impulses. They will act or react to any stimulus they can perceive without hesitation.

Human beings have the ability to say "no" and act independently of their impulses.

This is actually where Philosophy shines because most of the philosophers generally say something to the tune of; Animals do not have the ability to separate themselves from that which they perceive. But Humans on the other hand have this ability and can.

>"I am not the phenomena I am perceiving or witnessing, I am the one that "Witnesses" or perceives the phenomena".

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 05:53:13 2014 No.6962560 >>6960693 You only observed its behaviour. You don't know if it feels the same as you do on the inside when it presents analogous body language and gesticulation.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 06:15:29 2014 No.6962584

>>6962211
>Animals are bound to their impulses. They will act or react to any stimulus they can perceive without hesitation.
Many humans will do so as well.

>Human beings have the ability to say "no" and act independently of their impulses.
Some animals can do so as well.

>"I am not the phenomena I am perceiving or witnessing, I am the one that "Witnesses" or perceives the phenomena".
How do we know animals don't think like that? Since when can we read minds?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 07:57:51 2014 No.6962662 That was an awesome thread, guys. Really interesting, thanks.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 08:02:29 2014 No.6962669

>>6961157
>Anyone who has a dog knows that animals can feel guilt.

You're anthropomorphizing your dog. Animals most likely cannot feel guilt. The ability to feel guilt depends on higher cognitive function only exhibited by the highly differentiated frontal cortex of humans. A dog is not sufficiently evolved to reflectively think about its own behaviour, let alone feel guilt.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 08:04:47 2014 No.6962671 >>6961808 >every animal that has a functioning limbic system have emotions - even guilt Oh look, another high schooler talking out of his ass without knowing anything about neuroscience. What a surprise ...

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 08:06:59 2014 No.6962675 >>6962211 >Human beings have the ability to say "no" and act independently of their impulses. Bullshit. Free will is an illusion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 09:38:20 2014 No.6962774 >>6962560 Then you really can't argue that they can't either. Not implying that you are, but it's something.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 10:15:53 2014 No.6962823 Probably Probably Probably

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 10:19:21 2014 No.6962834

>>6960660
Animals have no consience that exist outside if their species or guilt which is why they can maim you at a moment's notice without restraint.

Only some animals feel pain its debatable whether simple vertebrates like fish and amphibians possess pain.

Mammals and birds have a variety of emotions.Reptiles seem to have weaker emotions but can still get angry but not sad or scared.Fish and Amphibians can be curious but thats all.Invertebrates outside cephalopods are emotion less drones.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 15:47:14 2014 No.6963284 >>6962669 Maybe you're animpolizing YOUR dog. You think humans are special unique snowflakes so you do mental gymnastics so you don't feel uncomfortable by the fact that they have far more in common with you than you'd like

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 15:50:24 2014 No.6963289 >>6963284 Humans ARE special snowflakes. We are the highest evolved organisms on this planet. We are the only species who has a sufficiently complicated brain to experience consciousness.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 15:59:46 2014 No.6963318 File: 218 KB, 1920x1440, 896161-1-4x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6962675

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:00:44 2014 No.6963320 >>6963289 No, humans are not special. Sorry. Maybe go to a religious board since that seems more to your suiting

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:01:37 2014 No.6963322 >>6963289 While I agree humans are special snowflakes, the term "highest evolved" is 100% bullshit and you should know better. Evolution is not hierarchical. There's no "level of evolution", just differences.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:04:46 2014 No.6963331

>>6963320
Call me when you can teach a chimp to philosophize.

Apes and dolphins are probably the closest to "conscious" we see. They're incredibly smart creatures. They can communicate with us fairly well. They can remember things, they can even dwell on the past. They can feel loss, love, etc.

But none of them have the ability to understand what Rousseau meant when he said "I think, therefore I am." Yes, it's an issue of morality. I understand that's not hard science and therefore not good for you, but it is how we run society and it's important.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:06:33 2014 No.6963336 >>6963320 You are the one who's denying evolution. Go be brainwashed on /pol/ or /x/.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:08:56 2014 No.6963341

>>6963322
From our human point of view we value the possibility of conscious experience higher than the lack of conscious experience. Thus, with respect to this property, humans ARE higher evolved than animals. This should be obvious from the context of my post, you fucking autist.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:13:23 2014 No.6963357 I am the highest evolved human, therefore you are all lower inferior scum, therefore you have no thoughts or feelings, time to kill you all

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:25:03 2014 No.6963387 >>6963318 This euphoria meme has gone too far. Whenever I hear the word euphoria IRL I immediately think of some fat neckbeard guy tipping his hat.

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:30:30 2014 No.6963402

>>6960660
OP, I certainly believe animals have feelings.

A chimpanzee was upset with its caretaker for having been gone, but showed empathy when the caretaker explained she'd had a miscarriage.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_%28chimpanzee%29#Self-awareness_and_emotion

I'm probably anthropomorphizing this dog, but it really does seem to care about saving this fish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx_X6hmhwrs
I've experienced (albeit biased) emotions from my dog, as well.

>>6961824
Sure, there are cases like this one, but obviously there wasn't any connection between the baboon and the gazelle. That's like showing a video of a guy fishing and arguing that the fisherman has no conscience since he's killing the fish without thinking twice about it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 16:34:23 2014 No.6963407 >>6963402 >Washoe appeared to experience an identity crisis when she was first introduced to other chimpanzees, seeming shocked to learn that she was not human. She gradually came to enjoy associating with other chimps. Feels bad

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 19:14:51 2014 No.6963713 >>6961785 a cactus does not have a spine

Anonymous Sun Dec 21 19:30:22 2014 No.6963743

>>6960660
>Do they suffer when they are in pain?
In one of my neuro classes my professor raised an interesting paper from several years ago which found that humans have a unique, extra reciprocal connection in insular cortex, the consequence of that being that that connection might be what allows humans to be aware that they are experiencing pain. In other words, the human experience of pain may be unique in the animal kingdom.

>Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience?
>Do they have feelings like guilt?
These are traits only beneficial in social settings, so most animals probably don't have them. But at least in some social animals it wouldn't be surprising. For example, chimpanzees have been observed on many occasions to unite as a group to punish chimps that have wronged the group in some way. With behavior like that in a species, feelings of guilt would be a significant advantage as it would prevent an animal from doing something that will cause it to be harmed by the rest of the group.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 21 21:08:56 2014 No.6963880 >>6963331 >But none of them have the ability to understand what Rousseau meant when he said "I think, therefore I am." Descartes said that

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 20:01:21 2014 No.6965797

>>6960660
yes, yes and yes.

I'm not a scientist and don't know much about psychology, biology, neurology...

I grew up on a farm and when e.g. a cow accidentally kills/fails to protect its own young calf and spends several hours by its side after that, crying, mourning, mooing... I really don't see any difference to a human on his knees yelling "God, why? What have I done?"

I think the human brain isn't that much different to other placentals. We can talk with each other (and this alone makes a huge difference)... but that's about it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 21:54:30 2014 No.6965886 File: 450 KB, 738x605, brains_science.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What about dis apples? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141218131935.htm

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:12:20 2014 No.6966010 >>6960660 Do you think the gator was scared? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sAF8gMN9c0

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:17:44 2014 No.6966027 File: 8 KB, 268x225, Reegesk (aka Rodent).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6961824 Is that baboon raping the gazelle?

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:19:23 2014 No.6966030

>>6963880
So Descartes is sitting in a bar in Paris and the bartender says, Hey Renee, I hear you think you are hot shit because of your fancy thinking conjecture.
Descartes, turns, puffs his wig, and replies, mmmmyyyesss, i am indeed proud. for i have proven existence. what have you done, foul barkeep?
the barkeep says smugly, i have disproven your proof.
Descartes says, i most certainly think not! and proceeds to disappear in a puff of logic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:21:26 2014 No.6966034 >>6966010 No, the gator was confused as fuck because it probably just wanted to lie there on the bank, but the cat was protecting its "territory".

Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:34:12 2014 No.6966057

>>6961817
Her name is Koko and she's still very much alive. She knows over 1000 words in sign language. She named that cat "All Ball", and along with the silence and not eating after it died, the keepers report her literally weeping throughout the night.

There's also a Bonobo named Kanzi. Apparently one time the keepers brought in an african dance team for hte bonobos in hte exhibit. All of hte Bonobos but Kanzi freaked out and thought it was aggressive. Kanzi remained calm, and after things had settled down, he reportedly communicated to his handler that he would like to watch the dance again, but this time without the other bonobos as not to upset them.

>>6961824
Let's not forget that your video, a. is showing the prey of the baboon, b. is showing behavior not unheard of among human beings, and c. is featuring Baboons, who are far less related to gorillas and chimps than we are.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:36:16 2014 No.6966062 >>6961824 What did he pick out at 1:37?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 22 23:37:24 2014 No.6966065 >>6966062 I think it was her heart?

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:11:12 2014 No.6966127
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>>6962675
>Free will is an illusion.

If you've been conditioned to function like an animal then of course it is.

If you woke up in the morning and your sexually aroused. Would you immediately run outside seek out a female and proceed to rape them? Because that's what an animal would do.

Animals cannot introspect.

Animals cannot take on a 3rd person perspective.

I don't know about you but i can definitely act independently of my impulses because i'm objectively aware of them. The fact that i can see them objectively means i'm by no means confined to them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 00:46:58 2014 No.6966205 >>6966127 >implying you know what animals would do, and cannot do GTFO

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 01:20:03 2014 No.6966271 >>6960660 I rest my case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vslc42q8ViM

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 01:42:55 2014 No.6966294 >>6965797 Dolphins man them Dolphins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rOmvwFfEk

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 01:56:32 2014 No.6966314 >>6966205 Here's a simple test. Go to Africa and stand still in front of a hungry lion and see what it does. Is it going to ask your for food? Or is it going to rip your guts out and enjoy the tastiest lunch it's had in long time?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 02:17:23 2014 No.6966327 File: 7 KB, 129x150, geeksquadquality.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6960660 Seriously? Are you like 8yrs old?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 02:34:53 2014 No.6966340 >>6960660 Hey OP is this your dad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jidTPJ6iaU

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 03:23:33 2014 No.6966384 >>6966340 KeK

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 06:52:32 2014 No.6966568

>>6966127
>If you woke up in the morning and your sexually aroused. Would you immediately run outside seek out a female and proceed to rape them?

No, because unlike you basement dwelling permavirgin I have a hot 10/10 gf lying right next to me who I can fuck all day.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 08:14:52 2014 No.6966622 >>6963289 >We are the highest evolved organisms All current extant species are evolved to the same amount - i.e they fit and survive in their current environment.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 08:44:29 2014 No.6966667

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Here's a further question: Do animals experience things the way we do?

No. All animals experience things differently. In fact that's not just true for different species, it's true for individuals. You and I have different emotional responses to and interpretations pf things, ours are just much closer to each other than to Fido's.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 08:47:34 2014 No.6966671 File: 32 KB, 300x350, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6966340

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 10:52:38 2014 No.6966836 I think it's funny how a smart board, with seemingly unending debate about mathematics, physics and chemistry, can so quickly conclude that animals do not share similar traits to humans.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 15:14:56 2014 No.6967290 >>6966667 Test Give your dog bacon--->then your child

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 15:18:12 2014 No.6967295 ITT: Edgy fucks who kick puppies for fun

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 16:22:44 2014 No.6967395

>>6960660
If you work with non-human primates, it's obvious they feel pain.

If you read about Koko the gorilla who was taught sign-language and blamed her pet kitten for breaking a sink. You could argue that was a product of guilt, since the gorilla tried to shift blame.

> inb4 Koko is faked
Give me evidence or fuck off

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 16:28:08 2014 No.6967412 >>6960660 >Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience? Do they suffer when they are in pain? Do they have feelings like guilt? You've never owned a pet, especially a dog, have you?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 19:08:28 2014 No.6967728 File: 1.79 MB, 211x173, Snappy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6967295 Who would do such a thing? I like to think this little guy when out thinking he would escape till his last breath

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 19:25:49 2014 No.6967761 My dog shows a shitload of emotion and often expresses it vocally as well (whining, groaning, etc.). So yes OP.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 20:06:58 2014 No.6967854 >>6960660 Gee I don't know OP propaganda or genius https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuZ4OE6vCk

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 20:16:39 2014 No.6967864 >>6967854 The best thing is when they release apes who learn sign language into teh wild, they try to communicate to the wild chimps with it.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 21:12:41 2014 No.6967911

>>6960660
Yes, but on a somewhat lower level than us. Not significant.
Yes, what are you a moron?
Maybe, we apparently aren't yet smart enough as a species to discern this yet.

but actually, OP wants everyone to spoon-feed him information.

Do it yourself.

>>6961689
Animals dont feel happiness when seeing certain people?
Elephants dont mourn over lost offspring?
Your a fucking retard.
Go beat off to your crush porn, faggot.

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 21:28:18 2014 No.6967928

Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent then the one derived from fear of of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach
Read more at 9

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 23 21:40:44 2014 No.6967954 File: 10 KB, 184x184, 1416799541541.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6966030 Noice

Anonymous Tue Dec 23 21:43:48 2014 No.6967958

>>6962669
>You're anthropomorphizing your dog

I think you're anthropomorphizing 4chan users. Everybody knows 4chan users don't have any emotions. Also there's no clear evidence they have any consciousness either. Wait....I'm using 4chan. How do I prove to myself I have consciousness? Maybe I'm just a machine programed to think I'm having thoughts. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 00:41:13 2014 No.6968238 >>6967928 So what's greed?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:17:28 2014 No.6968298 File: 5 KB, 199x300, th.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Animals cant feel pain, they are just stupid lesser organisms.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:22:10 2014 No.6968304 >>6968298 Why would that be the fedora approach? Pretty sure it's limited to a few stripes of religious extremists.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:24:24 2014 No.6968310

I think it should be pointed out at this point in the thread that answering OP's questions with "yes" does not, in any way, shape, or form mean eating animals is wrong. As most things in life, there's a continuum of emotional capability in animals. I would say that higher-level mammals such as apes have well-documented cases of what the OP is asking, and animals like dolphins and elephants, where it's harder to tell, have at least demonstrated they're capable of some level of love and grief.

Dogs? That's debatable. It could be argued that when they act guilty after doing something bad, it's simply because they've been behaviorally conditioned to expect punishment after the action they committed. I wouldn't make any claims about dogs.

But,again, higher-level mammals, I'd say the evidence is yes. They have guilt.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:24:28 2014 No.6968311

>>6968298
>be emotionally vested in lesser organisms
>insist that animals percieve world same as humans
>but not insects or disgusting cockroaches
>starts blurring the lines
>concludes with the fact that puppies are cute and thus must have some form of conscientious though

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 01:29:22 2014 No.6968318 >>6961181 You're asking us to prove that consciousness exist. Lurk moar, but for now just fuck off >BRING IN THE UPBOATS

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 02:44:20 2014 No.6968429 That's like saying do computers feel dreams?

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 02:53:29 2014 No.6968440

>>6968429
Isn't saying that humans are differnet from animals in all ways exactly what the fundamental Christians have been doing for hundreds of years?

There isn't consciousness isn't some sort of switch that at one point an ancestor of ours was born suddenly with. We had to logically develop it over time, probably over the course of the transition between H. habilis and H. erectus. Which means, logically, that there exists a point when our lineage was at a halfway point to where we are now which, again, necessitates some sort of continuity of consciousness.

And if there's a continuity of consciousness, there's no way you could dismiss all non-human animals from being somewhere on that continuity. They're not where we are, but the great apes aren't completely unconscious creatures.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 04:27:53 2014 No.6968542 >>6967728 Work safe board, and that gif. is pretty sad. Given this kind of grounding >>6965886 it petrifies me to think lab rats are in constant pain.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 05:12:47 2014 No.6968565 >>6967864 So they are like native English speakers?

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 05:41:20 2014 No.6968576

>>6966622
Yes but humans haven't evolved to fit into or merely survive their current environment. We have advanced to the point where we dominate the food chain with no boundaries on the destruction/control we can exact on other species (and our own). We are the apex predators.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 06:06:30 2014 No.6968585

>>6968565
No, they speak ASL (American Sign Language). It is officially distinct from verbal languages. You think that when the ape makes those signs it's thinking of the English word and spelling it out? No, it didn't know English before learning this language. It only knows objects and a handful of abstract concepts by the actions themselves

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 06:48:40 2014 No.6968609 [DELETED]

>>6968565
That's not what I meant.
I hate to explain jokes, but:
I was comparing them with English speakers, because many Americans can't speak other languages and expect everyone to speak English.
>The best thing is when they release *Americans who learn *English into *non-English countries, they try to communicate to the *locals with it.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 06:50:17 2014 No.6968612

>>6968585
That's not what I meant.
I hate to explain jokes, but:
I was comparing them with English speakers, because many Americans can't speak other languages and expect everyone to speak English.
>The best thing is when they release *Americans who learn *English into *non-English countries, they try to communicate to the *locals with it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 06:55:46 2014 No.6968617 >>6960660 Yes. Have you never had a pet dog? Mammals do at least. I dunno about insects. Their brains are much simpler.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 08:01:31 2014 No.6968698 >>6968298 Actually that's the opposite of fedora.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 09:21:49 2014 No.6968760 >>6961689 Animalists are a bunch of retards, I think everybody on /sci/ know that.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 12:10:57 2014 No.6968919

>>6960660
Most animals have pain receptors. They do feel pain.
I think most intelligent animals regret mistakes and try to not repeat them again. This is essential for survival. Animals learn by their mistakes like humans.
Some animals are capable of communicating with each other.
Some can build tools.
Animals are very similar to us in many ways.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 16:02:04 2014 No.6969254 >>6961922 What is THAT?!

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 19:04:55 2014 No.6969490
File: 85 KB, 500x440, the_dark_tower.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6968440
This. Just like there is no specific point at which we transitioned from one evolutionary stage to another. There are various levels of consciousness and self-awareness. This obviously does vary from individual to individual in a species (widely in humans), but significant variations in brain development from species to species allow greater or lesser ability for conscious thought, depending on the level of development in certain areas.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 19:06:44 2014 No.6969491 >>6968612 Ah, sorry. Yeah that's true haha

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 19:26:19 2014 No.6969523 >>6960680 tips fedora

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 19:29:39 2014 No.6969527 >>6960660 I don't know about guilt, but there must be comparable processes at play for basic social reasoning.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 24 19:32:15 2014 No.6969528 >>6962211 >Dogs can't be trained and don't question you the entire time they're being trained. Okay.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 20:01:31 2014 No.6969568
File: 52 KB, 320x240, 45984654654654.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6960660
No, No and No.

See this.
>>6966340

The man in that video was a defect just like you, who also thought animals had a conscience. He decided put his anthropomorphic idealism to the test and was killed instantly.

You can lie to yourself all you want, but the reality will always be that when you stand in front of a hungry Lion or Bear in their native habitat, they will kill you every time without hesitation.

It doesn't matter how hard you cry, it doesn't matter how hard you try to plead with it. It will kill you and enjoy a rare 5 star gourmet meal, shit you out and move on.

Anonymous Wed Dec 24 20:16:40 2014 No.6969579

>>6969528
>He doesn't know the basic concepts of the mammalian brain.
>He doesn't science behind stimulus conditioning.
>He obviously hasn't taken introductory psychology yet.

oh man, I definitely don't miss being an ignorant teenager still undergoing puberty.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 01:13:38 2014 No.6969957 Yes, animals of different sizes and shapes are concious and aware of pain. They have been found to not be self-aware though, with the exception of dolphins and elephants.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 01:46:21 2014 No.6969986 >>6969957 And blackbirds, bonobos, chimps and gorillas. Pretty much any animal that can recognize itself in a mirror without interjection or coaching from a second party, although it's only a handful that can do this.

Anonymous Thu Dec 25 04:41:20 2014 No.6970084

>>6969568
>when you stand in front of a hungry Lion or Bear in their native habitat, they will kill you every time without hesitation.
Just like humans do with pigs and cows.
The lion would even be more "moral" because it kills the animals in their natural habitat while we put animals through a life of misery.

By your logic a lion has more "consciousness" than a human.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 05:38:14 2014 No.6970113 >>6966340 fake and gay

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 06:21:59 2014 No.6970138 >>6970084 >By your logic a lion has more of a conscience* than a human.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 08:02:07 2014 No.6970191 >>6970138 Yes I meant to say that. English isn't my first language.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 15:51:24 2014 No.6970649 >>6970113 How can you tell?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 25 16:24:20 2014 No.6970697 >>6970649 http://shotcontext.blogspot.ca/2012/11/pit-dernitz-and.html

Anonymous Thu Dec 25 17:38:32 2014 No.6970762

What's the career to follow to go deeper on this subject? Biology? Neuro-something? It awlays interested me how the brain, the mind and the senses vary from animal to animal.

I fear this approach of concience, feelings and self-awareness to be self-serving and pointless. We are taking an aspect we perceive about ourselves and judging an idea of the rest of the animal life (as diverse as it is) based on how similar it is to this aspect specifically, instead of studying every animal on their own terms.
Surely from an outside perspective anything humans do can be described in logical terms not different than with the rest of animals.

Anonymous Fri Dec 26 00:52:05 2014 No.6971325

>>697076
It's not self-serving. It allows us to understand how other organisms perceive the world and to decide on the morals and ethics that should apply to them. It is the least selfish thing we could be examining at the moment. It is advocacy for animal rights. At the same time, though, it can provide an insight to human existence, our origins and the way we interact with the world. In essence, it is a study of what role each organism holds in conscious existence.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 00:53:06 2014 No.6971326 >>6970762 >>6971325

Anonymous Fri Dec 26 02:50:33 2014 No.6971418

>>6966127
All that shows is that you have conflicting impulses. Yes, you have a boner, but you also need to pee, and you want breakfast, and you want coffee, and you want to take a shower before class because if you smell like shit, the girl who sits next to you in chemistry is never going to fuck you. You're not acting independently of your impulses; you're acting on many impulses.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 05:09:48 2014 No.6971519 >>6971418 Wrong! Learn the definition of impulse before spouting ignorant bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 07:43:22 2014 No.6971593 >>6971519 if you think you consciously choose not to rape people when you have an erection, you're an idiot. pissing is an impulse. cleaning yourself is an impulse. oh, and animals do both of those things.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 08:03:55 2014 No.6971603 I can't think of a single argument to support the idea that animals don't have conscience that cannot also be applied to suggest that humans don't have conscience either.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 08:43:03 2014 No.6971646 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M92OA-_5-Y looks pretty conscious

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 10:23:38 2014 No.6971738 File: 2.93 MB, 224x398, 1419593602892[1].webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I dunno

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 10:37:12 2014 No.6971749 >>6963713 Pls no bully. It can have a spine if it believes in it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 15:29:48 2014 No.6972151 >>6971593 Wrong, yet again.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 15:52:20 2014 No.6972193 >>6971593 I cast my vote in his >>6972151 direction. You are confused about the meaning of impulse I think

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 15:53:50 2014 No.6972197 >>6971738 I can't even understand how it's naturally possible for this dog to know how to save a fish. Surely it's been trained to do that

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 16:15:37 2014 No.6972241 >>6972197 10 seconds in he's doing the same motion even though there is not water there but I don't know

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 16:24:15 2014 No.6972257 >>6972197 10 bucks on it's trying to bury the dead fish reflexively, with water instead of dirt because it's a stupid animal. but oh I wish I would lose this bet because awwwwww

Anonymous Fri Dec 26 16:43:34 2014 No.6972294

>>6972257
my guess is he isn't hungry and wants the fish to continue living
I think most animals have an understanding of the balance of population and don't want to kill others unless they have to eat and understand that as part of life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugi4x8kZJzk

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 17:50:41 2014 No.6972406 >>6970084 I'm sure if the lion was capable of creating an industry for food; it would.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 26 22:12:26 2014 No.6972755 >>6972294 Maybe it was saving a snack for later or more likely maternal impulse stronger than hunger and a baby is a baby

Anonymous Sat Dec 27 07:23:24 2014 No.6973395

>>6972197
I think it's been trained, because
>>6972257 dogs are not that stupid and you know it. Also, it's clearly still alive. Dogs don't bury prey alive.

>>6972294
>>6972755
There is no rational reason for this to even be a possibility. A dog has no awareness of the fact that fish need water to breathe. That's fucking ridiculous.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 27 07:27:27 2014 No.6973402 >>6972755 also the "baby appeal" that young mammals have only works on other mammals, and mammals do not recognize any of these features in other animal families like lizards, birds or fish.

Anonymous Sat Dec 27 07:32:58 2014 No.6973404

It's evident that vertebrates can suffer

Not so evident they have a grasp of ethics - though there may be afew that do. Elephants, dolphins, some apes

>b-but dolphins rape and apes murder

Yeah and we commit genocide and enslave each other

The greater our capacity for moral agency the greater our capacity for wrong or right action

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 27 07:36:53 2014 No.6973413 I believe that all energy has some form of subjective witness or in other words, consciousness, soul, etc. The subject and the object are inseparable.

Anonymous Sat Dec 27 08:46:12 2014 No.6973469
File: 20 KB, 366x380, 1419619870765.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6969254

Ok, English is not my main language so let me try again.

OP's question:

Do Animals (beside humans) have conscience?

We really need to specify which animals we are talking about here because the range of animals is so damn large that there is no universal yes or no to that question.

For example guilt isn't learned, it's an inborn feeling which originates from evolved primates. You don't feel guilt because you do something shit and then you go and think "Oh I shouldn't have this blabla" and this generates a bad sensation inside you, it goes the other way around: you feel shit, because your brain sub consciously decides to do so, then you start rationalize and describe it. Your ability to do this, think about it, describe it in words, make judgements based on your thoughts is a human only ability, but the feeling itself is not.

Regardin pain I can only say the same:
a sponge won't feel anything if you tore it apart, but a rat for example would.

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