/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.6865384]

What kind of jobs can someone get with a degree in pure mathematics? It doesn't seem like anybody would hire a math graduate unless they've combined their degree with statistics, economics, computer science, etc. Although math degrees are highly esteemed here, it doesn't seem like they're esteemed at all by employers. Also, before anyone senses that this is an attack against them or their degree, please bear in mind that I am a math undergrad, and I love what I do, but I am not very optimistic about the future for the reasons above. Anybody here have experience with looking for a job as a pure mathematics student?

Pic is not me.

[Anonymous No.6865395]

>>6865384
strictly pure mathematics? not wise to enter the workforce immediately after completing such a degree. if you want to work in industry, do pure mathematics for undergrad and then actuarial, financial mathematics Masters, and you'll be able to get a really good, relaxed and secure job. similar to physics, mathematics graduates tend to do really well for themselves; in fact, i think the average person who completes an undergraduate mathematics degree does better than the average engineer does for himself. stop getting so worried and cynical; you're completing a difficult degree and your opening your future options very considerably. mathematics is a very versatile degree to get

[Anonymous No.6865401]

>>6865384
Mathematical Economics and Math double major here OP. My dad's a professor and I asked him if math grad school was a viable option and he said "Do you like your econ degree?" I said yeah and he said "Then do mathematical economics in grad school and make 150k instead of 50k. You can do your weird abstract shit as a hobby"

He wasn't a fan of my interest in abstract math, but he's right. Just do a mathy but marketable degree, so you can get a good job that lets you do math and do pure math as a fun hobby.

[Anonymous No.6865415]

>>6865395
Thank you for the response. I have a couple questions: (1) What is "industry?" I'm sorry if that sounds like a stupid question. I am being completely sincere. Also, how long would it take to complete a masters degree? As for the actuarial stuff, I have really been considering writing some of the actuarial tests during my undergraduate experience. What else can I do to give myself an edge when looking for a job in the future?

>>6865401
Thank you as well. Could I enter into a mathematical economics graduate program with just a pure math degree? What kind of jobs can I get with a mathematical economics degree?

I think one of the biggest problems is that I have little to no knowledge of what kind of jobs are out there, which are vaguely designed for math students, and so I have no idea what I am interested in besides pure math, and so I don't have a clear plan. And I am freaking out a little because despite all of the work I do it seems a lot like I am retracing my lost steps in a bleak forest.

[Anonymous No.6865417]

>>6865384
According to /g/, expect 300k starting salary.

[Anonymous No.6865419]

>>6865415
It would definitely help to have some econ. At least Micro I and II, Macro, and a course in econometrics. The more, obviously, the better. Although Econ grad schools reallllly look heavy at your math because a good chunk of kids don't have it. But you're gonna at least need some basic econ classes.

You can do quite a bit. I'm gonna be getting PhD and going straight to academia (Family tradition - must be genetic). But you can also go to consulting (which is big), or work for a big company as an in-house economist (also big right now). Everyone needs and will always need economists. If you go to a good school, you can easily expect a 100k+ starting.

[Anonymous No.6865420]

>>6865417
Need a Ph.D for that.

[Anonymous No.6865424]

>>6865417

Only if you are really bad..

At least 500k per year if you have any skills at all!

>protip: we are talking about yen

[Anonymous No.6865425]

>>6865415
by industry i mean everything that isn't academia. thus, work for a company, for a for-profit institution, etc.

as far as getting into a financial mathematics graduate program, here in the U.S. you most certainly can if you completed pure mathematics. i'm not sure how the process is in other nations.

[Anonymous No.6865441]

>>6865417
This does not seem reasonable at all. I have spent the past two summers working in a meat packaging factory for fuck's sake.

>>6865419
This is the only economics course I've taken so far, and I got a 90 in it: http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/calendar/crs_eco.htm#ECO100Y1
I have no intention of taking more economics, but I certainly will take a few more courses should that help me get into graduate school. If you have a moment to peruse the page I linked above, could you give me some recommendations? Underneath each course you'll find a rough syllabus and prerequisites.

On that note, for anyone interested, this is my program, and I am in my third year: http://www.artsandscience.utoronto.ca/ofr/calendar/crs_mat.htm#ASSPE1165
It would be wonderful to know what I can do with the knowledge I've attained so far, suggestions are very welcome.

>>6865425
I think I'd prefer working in industry to be honest. I could be wrong but it seems like the demand for academia type jobs is practically nonexistent.

>>6865424
Makes more sense.

[Anonymous No.6865478]

>>6865401
Do you really think you would ever do any pure math again as a hobby?

I mean really, picture it, you drag your ass out of bed at 7am, go to work where you stare at numbers on a computer screen all day, get home half brain dead out of being out of the house for 10 hours and have maybe 4 or 5 hours to chill before you have to go back to bed and repeat, how likely do you honestly think you are going to be to sit down and start working on some serious mathematics?

Math is a terrible hobby because it is just too fucking hard, you need to understand so much background material and such high level topics to be able to do anything, sure you can read up and learn more pure math as a hobby but in terms of ever doing any, it's just completely unrealistic.

>>6865441
Don't go to a fucking econ grad program, dude, it's a completely different subject from math, not even remotely the same, you use numbers but so do physicists and so do fucking engineers. Don't even consider it if you're not interested in econ. Sticking "mathematical" in front of the program title does not make it a math field instead of economics.


You should look more into actuarial science. It isn't that heavy on the pure math, it's much more probability and statistics focused, that said it is at least a mathematical subject instead of one where you use numbers to study things that aren't math like econ or a science. Sign up for the P or FM exam, NOW, you NEED to pass one ASAP, and start applying for summer actuarial internships, NOW or the day you pass your first exam. You need at least 2 exams and an internship to have any chance of getting hired after you graduate, getting an internship should be doable if you start now but you will not find a job with no internship.

If you're interested in financial math, you have more time to think about it, you'll need a grad degree, it's a lot higher level math and it's actually a math discipline, it's hard as fuck and pretty soul sucking though.

[Anonymous No.6865494]

>>6865478
Different doesn't mean bad, though. Different means employment, and actually accomplishing the things I really want to do with my life. For the last three years I have bled mathematics from my veins. I feel accomplished, but not totally satisfied. Damn right, my balls are completely busted, but to almost zero avail. Also, all the math kids in my school shit on engineers all the fucking time but if you ask them why they give you some convoluted reason for why they're better or else if they have any shred of humility they turn bright red in the face, dark brown in the pants, and shut the fuck up immediately. At least they have jobs!

I will definitely look into the actuarial stuff. And doing all that ASAP. Also, it doesn't seem like having a math/econ specialist degree would hurt my chances of getting a job in that field.

Does anyone know if it would be helpful at all to add merely a minor in computer science? What kind of jobs can I pursue with a pure math degree in addition to a computer science minor, or a math/econ degree with a computer science minor?

[Anonymous No.6865543]

>>6865494
>Different doesn't mean bad, though. Different means employment, and actually accomplishing the things I really want to do with my life.
Do you really want to be an economist, though? You haven't taken a real econ class and don't seem that enthused about the babby class you took. And econ is a real bullshit field, man, it's not even about math skills, per se, it's important to know what you're doing and be good at math, but you are never going to accurately model or determine anything, it's more important to be able to come up with a somewhat vaguely accurate model and a good explanation why the parts that work, work and why the parts that don't work, fail than to come up with a slightly better model that you can't bullshit an explanation for. Bleh, if any of that made sense.

Like, econ jobs are some serious bullshit, man, that's what I'm trying to say. Math is about empirical results and determining exact, logically rigorous answers, econ is about taking empirical results, making some sense out of them and then coming up with a bullshit explanation for them.

>Also, it doesn't seem like having a math/econ specialist degree would hurt my chances of getting a job in that field.
Yeah, add in a stats minor and it's pretty much the best degree you can have to be an actuary short of actuarial science.

>Does anyone know if it would be helpful at all to add merely a minor in computer science?
Yes, very much so. Even without the econ with a math degree and CS minor if you can code well you can get a programming job. If you take some stats or probability as well you'll be qualified for a data scientist type job. And you'll be a god tier candidate for econ or quant grad programs.

A CS minor is overkill if you go the actuary route, though, you need to learn R, SAS, SQL and maybe Matlab, stats is more important.

[Anonymous No.6865683]

>>6865384
i-is this a grill?

[Anonymous No.6865694]

>>6865683
Who cares

[Anonymous No.6865711]

>>6865543
If that's the case, what kind of jobs can I get in math? Like what jobs specifically? I've been wandering around campus all day asking questions and despite the fact that everybody believes the market is superb for mathematics graduates absolutely not one person can give me a single specific job title or anything.

[Anonymous No.6865719]

>>6865683
Also, shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.6865728]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Data_Scientist,_IT/Salary

>A relatively junior crowd, somewhere between two-thirds and three-fourths of IT Data Scientists have fewer than five years of experience under their belt and the average salary for the field is $98,446 annually. Pay generally spreads from $62,508 to $142,118 per year. Residency is the biggest factor affecting pay for this group, followed by career duration. Nearly all report receiving medical coverage from their employers and the greater part collect dental insurance. The vast majority of IT Data Scientists (88 percent) are men. Job satisfaction is reported as high by the vast majority of workers. Participants in PayScale's salary questionnaire provided the particulars of this report.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/data-scientist-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm

>National Avg
>$118,709

>Data Scientist
>Facebook (27 Salaries) $133,326

This is a relatively new and fast growing field evidently. A quant making $300k starting is also a type of data scientist

[Anonymous No.6865731]

>>6865683
4chan basically created traps because people on here find it literally so hard to relate to women that they'd rather bang short, skinny dudes who look like girls.

[Anonymous No.6865733]

>>6865711

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Data_Scientist,_IT/Salary

>A relatively junior crowd, somewhere between two-thirds and three-fourths of IT Data Scientists have fewer than five years of experience under their belt and the average salary for the field is $98,446 annually. Pay generally spreads from $62,508 to $142,118 per year. Residency is the biggest factor affecting pay for this group, followed by career duration. Nearly all report receiving medical coverage from their employers and the greater part collect dental insurance. The vast majority of IT Data Scientists (88 percent) are men. Job satisfaction is reported as high by the vast majority of workers. Participants in PayScale's salary questionnaire provided the particulars of this report.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/data-scientist-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm

>National Avg
>$118,709

>Data Scientist
>Facebook (27 Salaries) $133,326

This is a relatively new and fast growing field evidently. A quant making $300k starting is also a type of data scientist. Also, don't forget to minor in Comp Sci.

[Anonymous No.6865737]

>>6865543
The thing is, I can use Econ to prove you wrong. If Econ were as you as it is, then companies wouldn't hire them either as consultants or in house economists. They're naturally profit maximizing.

You were that guy in 101 that no one liked.

[Anonymous No.6865744]

>>6865478
It's definitely not pure math or any of that shit, yeah, I'll give you that instantly. But if you don't think real econ uses a shit ton of math, you're fucking wrong. Just because CNN told you that economics is just Paul Krugman writing editorials for the NYT doesn't mean it's true.

[Anonymous No.6865745]

>>6865731
>citation needed

[Anonymous No.6865750]

>>6865745
Just a heuristic observation.

[Anonymous No.6865751]

>>6865478
>If you're interested in financial math, you have more time to think about it, you'll need a grad degree, it's a lot higher level math and it's actually a math discipline, it's hard as fuck and pretty soul sucking though.
>pretty soul sucking though.

I thought if you liked math or grew to like it then you'd experience exilaration and get paid for it?

[Anonymous No.6865752]

>>6865751
If you like cars, doesn't mean you'll enjoy replacing alternators all day for 8 hours

[Anonymous No.6865754]

>>6865711
You can't really get any jobs "in math" with just a bachelor's, there just aren't any and you don't know enough to do anything.

The alternatives people have been mentioning like data scientist or actuary aren't really "in math", but they are pretty closely related and use the same general kind of purely quantitative skills. So if you like math, you'll probably find them somewhat engaging. Econ, on the other hand, is much more of a mix of quantitative and qualitative skills, it is nothing like math at all and you can be a great mathematician and be horrible at economics and hate it. Hell, even engineering or software development is pretty much entirely quantitative and much closer to math than economics is.

The truth is a bachelor's in math isn't really that good for finding a job. It's not terrible, it's better than, like, history or womens studies or any of the dozens of bullshit majors that do not teach you anything useful at any point, but compared to engineering where there are obvious job options or business where any degree prepares you to be a paper pusher, it's pretty bad, to put it in perspective most science degrees are the same though and don't have the related job options like math does.

Where a math major really shines is grad school. Doubling it up puts you in way better shape applying for any grad program, pairing it with a suitable minor is sufficient preparation for almost any STEM program. And a grad degree in math is awesome, it gets you the data science and finance jobs that are legit 6 figure starting salary instead of just finding a job upwards of 50k (which is very very good btw) for a bachelors.

[Anonymous No.6865756]

>>6865733
>Also, don't forget to minor in Comp Sci.
He should major in it.

Data science is not a job for math grads. It's mostly CS (involves tons of programming) and use of some statistical tools. You're delusional if you think that a math grad can do that job.

All of the data science degrees are given out by CS departments.

Also, statisticians are fucked too… CS master race fucked them too:

>Statistics: Losing Ground to CS, Losing Image Among Students

>The American Statistical Association (ASA) leadership, and many in Statistics academia. have been undergoing a period of angst the last few years, They worry that the field of Statistics is headed for a future of reduced national influence and importance, with the feeling that:

>The field is to a large extent being usurped by other disciplines, notably Computer Science (CS).

>Efforts to make the field attractive to students have largely been unsuccessful.

http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2014/08/statistics-losing-ground-to-cs-losing-image-among-students.html

[Anonymous No.6865762]

>>6865752

This

My last job was working for a biomedical lab processing animal tissue for research and medical purposes (such as pericardial tissue for valve replacement/ repair surgery), and it was interesting and relevant to my interests but fuck me the processing was monotonous. To tell you the truth, an unskilled worker could have done the same job if they had half a brain and could learn quickly.

Either way. Boring and monotonous 80% of the time to say the least.

[Anonymous No.6865771]

>>6865733
>http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Data_Scientist,_IT/Salary
1/4ths down the page
>An advanced degree (such as a PhD) in computer science is usually required for this kind of position, in addition to previous years of work experience in a related field.
I can't even go to grad school with a minor in CS. A Ph.D in CS doesn't look like it's in the cards for me. Also, where do I get that kind of experience?

>>6865737
Which companies hire consultants and in-house economists? I would be interested in learning so maybe I can make some connections if I ever pursued that route. Also, what other jobs are there for math/economics graduates?

[Anonymous No.6865781]

>>6865771
Academia's the other big one. I've interned at multiple consulting firms, they work for all types. Everything from white shoe law firms to the DoJ to pharmaceuticals. In-house economists are big at the big corporations. Wal-Mart, etc. A specialty in labor economics helps (in grad school), but they also need other economists to help model the market and determine prices, etc. It may sound like a small market with only three major categories, but they're three huge categories. All universities need economics teachers, it's one of the most popular majors. All corporations need someone to give them economic advice.

[Anonymous No.6865783]

>>6865756
Don't listen to this faggot. Data science is what once was called statistics, what was called data mining, what is also now machine learning. It all falls down to the same category. And what it really all rely on is applied math, with the help of programming tools to make your life easier. but you do not fucking need a CS degree to do it, in fact it's overkill.
I work in a sports betting house, setting up the pay tables for soccer games and doing statistic research. Currently a master student in electrical engineering (signal processing), plan to do PhD in math (applied math program - machine learning), and my boss is a pure mathematician. Tools we use are R, python, hadoop, matlab among other, and never did I need all that CS that CS people study for 4 years or more. Some basic programming and scripting is more than enough, and you'll learn all that when you get into the job, the only things needed to actually get into these sort of positions is to show some basic math/statistics knowledge and maybe basic data manipulation skills using simple scripting programs like matlab or so

[Anonymous No.6865784]

>>6865756
>>6865771

Alright fine. A double mager in CS and math or perhaps even a major on CS and a minor in math for undergrad?

This data scientist job looks good though. Obviously trading was the first niche that produced that job and called it Quant. But now other industries are catching on, probably prodded by moore's law which has resulted in stupendous growth in computing power, most of which is untapped.

[Anonymous No.6865796]

>>6865783
>Data science is what once was called statistics, what was called data mining, what is also now machine learning.

You're a fucking idiot. Data mining is a filed of AI, not statistics. Statistics fаggоts have been anti-bayesian for centuries until bayesianism was revived in COMPUTER SCIENCE departments.

And ML is never taught in statistics departments.

And you're a double-moron because you have no clue what Data Scientist job involves. You're basically a glorified programmer who uses ML techniques to extract meaning from data. That's not taught in statistics/math departments.

[Anonymous No.6865809]

>>6865754
>And a grad degree in math is awesome, it gets you the data science and finance jobs
Can you provide some specific job titles I can research?

>>6865781
And these are the kinds of jobs that will land me 100k+ starting if I go to a good school?

>>6865784
The data scientist job looks fantastic, but I seriously don't think I can spend the next three to four years completing a major in CS. A minor would be more feasible, but would it be useful at all?

[Anonymous No.6865818]

>>6865809
>http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Economist-Corporate-Salary-Details.aspx

Yep. PhD will easily make you 100+ if you go to a good school. Current dean of my economic department makes 300-400.

[Anonymous No.6865824]

>>6865818
Wow. This almost sounds doable.

[Anonymous No.6865826]

>>6865737
>>6865744
Chill out, kids, I have an econ degree. Yeah, there's a lot of math involved but bullshitting skills are very nearly if not equally as important as actual math ability. And the work you are doing is total bullshit, if you're doing research the bullshitting is an essential component, if you're not doing research you're probably doing applied micro which is engineering-tier applied math.

>>6865751
Pure and applied math are two very different things though. Personally I'm more interested in applied math and I think finance is fascinating, it's not necessarily something I want to do for my whole career but it's definitely very interesting. But if you're really into pure math, it's not gonna do much for you, at all, it'd be like working as a civil engineer when you wanted a job as an architect.

>>6865771
You can go to grad school with a minor in CS and a math major for sure and you don't actually need a PhD to be in CS, it could be in applied math or stats.

>>6865796
>You're basically a glorified programmer who uses ML techniques to extract meaning from data. That's not taught in statistics/math departments.
The extracting meaning from data part certainly is. And you sure as hell don't need a CS degree to be a programmer. Yeah, CS has a slightly higher ratio of relevant stuff to bullshit but you're a goddamn moron if you think there aren't plenty of people with stats/math degrees doing data science.

>>6865809
>Can you provide some specific job titles I can research?
Job titles depend on the company, dude, they aren't specific. Quantitative analyst is what it's usually called in finance, data is just data scientist but plenty of companies come up with random as fuck names for the same job description.

You aren't gonna get 100k starting with a bachelor's and you can get 50-60k starting (which is actually really fucking good) with a math major + CS minor if you do an internship and work on the right skills.

[Anonymous No.6865831]

>>6865826
amount of bullshit you need depends on the job. Academia research is high bullshit if you're just messing around in mid-tier journals at some no-name state school. But if you're in the big leagues with top journals, skill overtakes bullshit.

[Anonymous No.6865834]

>>6865826
>The extracting meaning from data part certainly is. And you sure as hell don't need a CS degree to be a programmer. Yeah, CS has a slightly higher ratio of relevant stuff to bullshit but you're a goddamn moron if you think there aren't plenty of people with stats/math degrees doing data science.

Nobody will hire you (OK, big companies & companies with a clue) to be a data scientists without a CS degree. You will program mundane stuff 99% of the time. I know, I work with data scientists every day.

[Anonymous No.6865904]

>>6865809
>I seriously don't think I can spend the next three to four years completing a major in CS. A minor would be more feasible, but would it be useful at all?

According to >>6865756 you should major in CS. The reason he gave was because it would involve lots of programming and a math major who thinks he can do that amount of programming is delusional. Now I'm not sure if he meant that as a CS major you'd pick up the technique for this humungous amount of programming he speaks of or whether you'd just prove to yourself and to a future employer that you're capable of olympic level coding but his bottom line is that a data scientist needs to code more than they need to think abstractly about numbers.

Personally, I think CS skills are picked up easily on the job or on hobbies. Plus you can read a book and practice too but math? I'm not sure if math is so easy to learn outside of academia on a self tutoring basis. Math is forever, CS skills are updated every few years. But I'll digress to anyone else who has had actual experience in the job market with a completed CS or Math bachelors.

Also, it may be possible to take enough courses as a minor in CS to prove that you won't conk out as a full time programmer. Indeed, aren't some CS classes also math classes at uni, as in, they have a CS xyz and Math xyz designation in the catalog and meet in exactly the same lecture halls and discussion rooms?

[Anonymous No.6865923]

>>6865904
>Personally, I think CS skills are picked up easily on the job or on hobbies.
It's easier to pick up necessary math than to pick up necessary CS skills (which involve years of study and practice). Stat/ML rules are basically recipes at this point that will get you pretty good results. You don't need to research/invent new ways of accomplishing something to get a pretty good result. That's why data science is just another programming field.

[Anonymous No.6865928]

>>6865831
Bullshitting is a skill as well, though. In fact, that was kind of my point. You don't need very good bullshitting skills to be good at math, but if you want to be successful in economics, you need to bullshit with the best of them. Because if you aren't very good at bullshit, the people who are who make up the top of the field will tear your work apart and you won't be able to defend it, if you're good enough, you'll be able to come up with a bullshit argument that isn't entirely falsifiable.

That's not to say you can suck at math, you have to have some level of truth in whatever you are working with. But the whole thing about economics is, nothing you do will ever be objectively right, just less wrong than existing theories, so your ability to explain your results is just as important as the results themselves.

>>6865834
Yeah, that's bullshit, though, non-CS major from a shitty school is going to be hard to get anywhere, and you certainly need some relevant experience and some evidence you actually know how to program. A math degree with no minor and no relevant internship probably isn't gonna cut it. But to go so far in the other direction as to say it's impossible without a CS degree is just completely wrong, it's easier, that's all.

>You will program mundane stuff 99% of the time.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's true of any programming job though.

>>6865904
>Indeed, aren't some CS classes also math classes at uni, as in, they have a CS xyz and Math xyz designation in the catalog and meet in exactly the same lecture halls and discussion rooms?
That sounds pretty retarded, I can't imagine why a university would make up silly redundant classes instead of just requiring a few math classes for a CS major or vice versa.

[Anonymous No.6865955]

>>6865923

It's easy to maintain programming as a hobby. For example, an 11 year old can start programming games and small apps as a hobby and by the time they graduate at age 21 they'd have 10 years under their belt. Part time mind you but combine that with programming classes in HS and uni even with a minor in CS and you've got a heavy hitter in programming.

Personally I don't see why you'd need years of programming to become a good programmer. Most of the commonality in different programming assignements becomes reduntant after a while.

What's left is where you have to be original and think outside the box for each particular piece of software you write and that's a product of your prior education, reading and affinity to art, statistics, math or physics etc. The programming part is so reduntant, at least it seems that way to me. Build a gui if needed, build some tables and fields for your database, manipulate the data and pretty up the results. Why would I need years and years of work experience to do that competently? Mind you, to do it fast I'd need lots of practice but most if not all of the intuition used to build the solution is not going to come out of textbooks.

>>6865928

But it's precicely the reduntant material(to both majors) that they have grouped into these double named classes. I can't remember them but something like "introduction to matrix algebra" might be one of these. I'm sure there's anons here whose unis have such an overlap.